Cheers guys! If you want to support me build a fort out of speaker boxes, please consider using my affiliate link the next time you shop at Thomann! Thanks! Mwua! Mwua! www.thomann.de/de/index.html?offid=1&affid=3394
@JensenSpeakersVideos4 ай бұрын
Hello Speaker Fanatics Community! Ignazio from Jensen Speakers here. John, thank you very much for such an interesting and accurate video. It's clear you invested a lot of time and effort to make an objective and accurate test. I'd like to chime in, to dig a little deeper in this debate that is so interesting for those like us who are obsessed with Tone, and therefore with Speakers. First of all, let me clarify what we define as Break-In: to have the speaker to behave as designed, winning over the rigidity that the moving parts (membrane, suspensions, spider etc.,) have developed, being stuck in their "neutral" position for weeks or months or more, from the manufacturing time to the moment you start playing them. Aging is a different concept, as I'll discuss later below. Rolling the tape back to my interview with Kristian Kohle, I confirm I stated that an average of 20-30 hours of playing at a decent "band practice" volume will bring you a long way towards the "maturation" of the speaker. Unfortunately, there is no hard rule in the guitar speaker world, because, in spite of the sheer simplicity of the concept, there are many variations among different speakers builds that impact also on the break-in length. Let me go through a few of those: 1) membrane material and shape: the material is almost invariably cellulose, i.e. paper. Even if we'd assume that the pulp may have quite similar characteristics, which is not that case, the rigidity and thickness of the foil is a big variable. A thin foil, with a minimum amount of concentric ribs (or corrugations, that is the tech term we use in the factory) , will be faster to break in, because it is less rigid, so it will gain compliance and flexibility earlier than a thicker one. Moreover, a "formed" cone will be easier to break-in than a "seamed" cone. A formed cone is built by wetting and then pressing a flat sheet into a cone form. A seamed cone is a flat sheet, bent into shape, and then seamed with glue. It's obvious that the latter will be more rigid, assuming the formulation of the pulp may be the same. 2) Doping or painting or applying dampening coats onto the membranes or specific portions of the membrane also changes the scenario. Certain dopings are applied to increase rigidity, while others to reduce it. Certain dopings will layer themselves on the surface of the paper foil, while others will impregnate the membrane. 3) The same can be said for the spider. Material may change, treatments may be applied onto them, and so on and so forth. 4) As far as the suspensions or "edges": in a guitar speaker almost invariably, the "suspension" is simply the membrane being shaped in form of "waves" or "rolls", to allow a well controlled membrane excursion. Once again, the shape and doping of the suspensions may be more or less rigid. In essence, any building technique or treatment that will increase the rigidity, will also slow down the break-in process. Therefore it makes sense to say that, as a general rule, a fair amount of playing time will bring the speaker "in the zone", as it has been designed to sound. Technically, by measuring the same speaker before and after our "factory developed" break-in process, the most average finding is a change in the Resonance Frequency, that shifts down in the spectrum, generally by 10% - 15% (as shown also in John's measurement... those small changes below 100Hz...). As an example, from 80Hz to 72Hz or even 68Hz. This may seem small, but it's not. The anechoic chamber curves clearly show this variation, but the dynamic and THD measurements also show a slightly looser behavior and a harmonically richer response (i.e. a higher THD, Total Harmonic Distortion). These small differences usually translate into a fatter, warmer, fuller tone. How much? Well, it depends on all the variables described above. With certain speakers, it's very evident. With others it's there, but barely appreciable. This is what Break-In is in our view. This process has been developed in 40+ years of manufacturing, tested thousands of times, with highly sophisticated gear, in a controlled environment, on speakers of all kinds such as the ones we manufacture, from titanium dome compression drivers, to silk dome tweeters, to 18" subwoofers for Sound Reinforcement. Each of these speaker species shows a different behavior before and after the break in. On the other side, AGING is the magic word, and shall not be confused with Break-In. I totally understand the concept of "200/300 hours", as stated by Nolly, even though I see that amount of time being closer to the concept of "aging" rather than "break-in". The point is that the mechanical evolution of the speaker is an on-going process, highly influenced by external factors such as humidity, dust, smoke, etc.. Also, a speaker played only at moderate levels will AGE differently form a speaker that has been pushed to its limit every night. It is pretty obvious that a speaker with years of heavy playing in a smokey, damp environment will sound very different from its twin brother played only at bedroom level in an air-conditioned apartment. Which of the two has aged "in the right way"? We found vastly different response curves among different units of the same vintage speaker model; in certain cases the resonance frequency has dropped by even more than 25% along with time and use/abuse, changing dramatically the tone and feel of the speaker. Hope all the above might be interesting for you all... don't hesitate to comment and ask, if this stuff thrills you!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne4 ай бұрын
Hello Ignazio, I'm thrilled to see you here! I'm a fan of your work. Thank you for leaving this amazing comment full of knowledge. It is a fascinating read and I very much appreciate your input here!
@JensenSpeakersVideos4 ай бұрын
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne I’m glad you found this way-too-long post :) I love sharing what we’ve learned in all these years, and I love tech-tone talking :) we should have a chat and maybe do something with some of our speakers as well, let’s get in touch!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne4 ай бұрын
@@JensenSpeakersVideos I'd be delighted to! I have a few of your speakers lined up here already but I'd be delighted to explore more Jensen speakers or just have a chat. My email address is on my youtube page as is my Instagram. Please, feel free to message me any time
@dudarino6662 ай бұрын
Wow what an amazing comment! I love both channels videos. If you see this I have a question. Because of Ignazios videos I bought a Jensen "mod" speaker 50w 8ohm and a "Hempback" 5w 8ohm speaker. I want to do a recorded test of the new vs break in stages. I planned on doing New vs 24hrs vs 48 hrs vs 76 hrs vs 96 hrs. Mix each speaker seperate with 2 condensor mics as room. I am confused as to what is best for playback to break them in. Some people say guitar playing, some people are using pink noise or similar constant wavs playing. I think back to when Ignazio was saying that even small pauses in the playing was enough to keep the coil temperatures regular. Is this the same with these pink noise signals? Is it going to overheat my coil if I was to leave a constant signal playing? Thank you in advance IF you see this!
@JensenSpeakersVideos2 ай бұрын
@@dudarino666 Hello, Ignazio here! Great question... what signal is besst to use to break in speakers? In our experience, we recommend MUSIC. either playback of music tracks, or even guitar loops. This method may be less effective in the short term than white or pink noise or sine waves, but is MUCH safer. Music is made of transients and pauses and even a few milliseconds of pause contribute to avois excessive build-up of heat in the voice coil. Of course you can use continuous signals such as white/pink noise or sine waves BUT you gotta know what you're doing, and preferably you should have a set of measurement tools such as digital thermometers etc. to monitor the voice coil temperature. If you would like to use these continuous signals, I would recommend feeding the speakers with cycles of maybe one or two minutes, allowing some seconds of silence, and then repeating until you're happy. Use moderate volume, and watch out for the speaker to stay within its maximum excursion capabilities (Xmax parameter). I would not go over 30 to 60 minutes of breaking in with noise or waves. This kind of signals do stress the speaker much harder than music. That's why it may be an efficient system but also potentially more dangerous, if you use too much volume or too prolonged cycles. Hope this helps!
@sparella9 ай бұрын
Epic! I'm not surprised by the results, but I also have the benefit of experience as an engineer in the paper industry. A fun experiment would be measuring one speaker at very high humidity and again at very low humidity. Paper stiffness and dimensions change continuously with ambient conditions. Additives improve stability, and are part of each manufacturer's "secret sauce".
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Awesome! That is a great idea!!!
@jonoftheford7 ай бұрын
In his Guitar Amp Handbook Dave Hunter talks about putting a silica packet in a box with a speaker for a bit to dry it out for more “woodiness”.
@sparella7 ай бұрын
@@jonoftheford "My lucky day! This cab came with some candy." - the bassist
@jkdsteve4 ай бұрын
Yep, try playing guitar under different conditions…not only does humidity affect the way your cab will sound, changes I. Air pressure change how you hear it. We’ve all been there, one day your Mesa sounds glorious….without touching the controls, it sounds awful just the next day - right?
@AudriusN2 ай бұрын
Temperature has it's effects too. Amir of ASR had it when tested Neumann monitors, got some strange results which did not correlate with Neumann's own, and it turned out speakers were colder when he measured.
@AlanW9 ай бұрын
Some thoughts: I kinda always thought, logically, that a broken in speaker would have better treble response. A more malleable spider and suspension would be easier to move for small ranges like higher frequencies, whereas the paper of the cone would likely maintain the same stiffness as it's not flexing nearly as much. The thing about having more treble is that, psychoacoustically, it makes it sound like you have more bass as well, so people are going likely to prefer that more scooped sound. I think having more treble in a guitar sound will help it sit in a mix. It's always better to remove treble if there's too much than add if there isn't enough. You are most likely correct that "professional" break-ins would be using white or pink noise, which would more evenly exercise frequencies. It might be nice to see the graphs represented as diffs, to better illustrate the ... differences, looking at two squiggly lines can be a bit hard, I imagine! In any case, thanks so much for all the work, I really appreciate the test methodology discussion and implementation.
@TIGHTENmetal9 ай бұрын
Regarding the thin blanket I see the follow up question as thus- could the differences in the A/B be negated by turning knobs on the amp? Regarding the break in signal- another thing to consider may be that Class D amplification moves the speaker (as I understand it, which is admittedly rudimentary) with PWM control whereas a traditional tube amp uses amplitude. As a side note, I have a personal theory that this is why modelers have very little "push" at any given volume compared to a tube amp.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Oh man... Both are really interesting thoughts. Maybe I will have to do another one using a conventional tube amp at some point. If the differences in before and after can't be tweaked with the amp, they could certainly be corrected with an EQ in the DAW.
@istvannagy96339 ай бұрын
This is one of those youtube channels that's making me happy it exists,lots of quality content,hard and precise work,also some good jokes now and then! Keep those videos coming,man! Happy Hollydays,John!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you for your kind comment. It made me smile! Happy holidays to you too!
@jamanjeval9 ай бұрын
The differences were subtle but noticeable and proves that there is something to vintage speakers sounding different and also manufacturers claims that they are *exactly* reproducing the speakers to original specifications. New speakers made to sound like old speakers may become less desirable as they age than those that make them authenticity. The next ingredient would be the age of the speaker. Paper changes as it ages as do the adhesives.
@woodystemms37999 ай бұрын
As it ages, it gets dry ... absorbs some atmospheric humidity ... then dries again. There's no substitute for an original 50's or 60's Jensen 12 in. speaker.
@willchug9 ай бұрын
Ok, I’ve finished watching the entire video now 😳, for the first time anyhow. My brain just loves the whole background engineering side of things, it really makes sense to me formatted this way, the precision of a planetary reentry & gaffer tape. A cable tie is what keeps Australian engineers employed. 🇦🇺👊
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Haha! I love this comment! Tape and cable ties are definitely where the rubber meets the road in my world
@gab.lab.martins9 ай бұрын
In sum, broken-in speakers have more bite. I much preferred the "older" speakers. Makes me want to play more and more!
@zenamplification9 ай бұрын
A true Christmas miracle! Another excellent video, well done John. Very much looking forward to a deep dive on pre and/or power tubes - that one will stir some emotion in the tone nerd community for sure.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Hahaha! Appreciate your feedback, ZEN!
@acrylicrecording5 ай бұрын
Finally got around to watching this, man what a difference!!! Frequency response didn't change all that much as you showed but, listening to the guitar examples the broken in ones (other than tube town) are WAY more dynamic and responsive to my ears, almost like the difference between playing really stiff and playing relaxed and in the flow state. The transients are almost muted on the new speaker compared to the broken in one almost seems like there are more harmonics/overtones as well. Its funny because after you listened to that you said you wouldn't hear much of a difference in a mix, where I had the exact opposite feeling, new speaker I would immediately reach for a reamp of some kind, broken in had much more life and felt like a better performance to my ear (expect for the tube town one that sounded exactly the same). the musicality of the broken in speakers is like 10X higher than the new speaker to my ear. Very interesting. I'd be curious if you did this test measuring other things besides just frequency response, not entirely sure how but dynamics, harmonics, transients etc I think are overall more useful than frequency response in a guitar context at least (especially since you've done the frequency response tests) I'd also be curious to hear how breaking in a speaker with a low frequency test would work, aka playing like a 10hz sine wave to get the motor/suspension moving (where you can actually see the cone pulsing) I've heard from some people that's the way to do it but who knows, certainly is visually appealing.
@lexvogelaar8349 ай бұрын
Thank you so much for putting in this work. The results are very enlightening., and... well... sobering. In a good way. Less for us to worry about. I fully agree with your conclusions and speculations. Maybe I may add that the differences were not only in the frequency spectrum changes, but in richness, warmth and fullness....you know, attributes we would describe to tape saturation or something. Anyway, way to subtle to worry about. Moving forward, let's all just enjoy creating vastly differing tones with different speakers and save break-in for the mastering stage 😂. Loved the video ❤ Happy Holidays John !
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you! I could not have phrased that any better! Happy holidays to you too
@gman-zr1ie3 ай бұрын
Rambling on and speculating are all good, hearing theories about what 'might' be happening is eye-opening thought provoking.
@JoseCarbia9 ай бұрын
Break in makes a night and day difference with speakers like Blue Alnicos. Installed in a 5e3 amp I had to set the tone control of the amp around 4 before break in. After a 48h break in with a variac (Scumback method) I started to set the tone control around 6-7. In addition, the amp sounds thicker in the low end too.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
I've never tried the Alnico Celestions but would love to one day
@bk372022 күн бұрын
Ha! I fixed a speaker with a hammer. The speaker had a rubbing voice coil, and I was able to hammer the frame in the right place to free the coil up. The vintage guitar speaker turned out to be a real nice one!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne21 күн бұрын
Awesome! Funnily enough, I managed to do the same with the speaker from the intro. Most Jeremy Clarkson thing I've ever done
@lordgraga9 ай бұрын
What a monumental undertaking, and what a year. Been a pleasure following you through this ❤️ As for the results, I must say that it is super interesting. I did prefer the broken in versions every time. I think that you draw some good conclusions where possible, and I think that you have a pretty good hypothesis with regards to signal dependent breakin.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you very much, bro!
@nikolayew8 ай бұрын
Thank you! I enjoyed this video a lot! Almost like a whole documentary series about guitar gear! Hope there will be more in the future!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne8 ай бұрын
Thanks man! There will be more test videos like this in the future
@jesperbc9 ай бұрын
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you, too, John! This was super interesting. I'm as surprised as you, that the high end/presence appartently goes up, and I can definitely follow the logic, that the speaker is sort of malleable to the signal you feed it. It would make sense to me, that a not super solid material such as paper or cellulose fibers could be affected by continuously being "stimulated" in the same frequency ranges. You've done a massive job and a huge service to the guitar community. A true Mythbuster! Maybe now we can start having real, informed discussions about gear? I don't know if I've even put 30 hours into my Orange 412 with the V30s and Creambacks yet, but I'm excited to hear if the newer speakers in there will someday match the brightness in the '90s Mesa 412 cab I recently purchased. The Mesa definitely seems "played in".
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Cheers, Jesper! Thanks for leaving such a great comment! I really was surprised. Not the result I expected! Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you too!
@booganaga1239 ай бұрын
Truly great video! This was a ton of work and I can't be the only guitar player who appreciates it.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you, mate!
@TomMcCormickGuitar4 ай бұрын
Just came here to say that discovering your channel and nerding out to oblivion has been such a treat. Recently discovered my Mesa V30s are from the year 2000 and was a totally stoked. Your approach to your videos is so sick because it removes all the weird biases we all have in regards to tone/gear/etc. Coming from someone that has spent HOURS analyzing eq graphs and audio over the years these videos are so enjoyable haha. Thanks for all the effort and making crazy good content!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne4 ай бұрын
Hey Tom, I believe I have seen some of your videos too! Good stuff! Thanks for the kind words. It's been a pleasure sharing my obsessive passion with such an awesome community!
@TudorAdrian9 ай бұрын
So you could, hypothetically, calibrate (or re-calibrate going by the same logic) a given speaker. Amazing work! Thanks for taking the time to go through this.
@kingofbonngo9 ай бұрын
Some years ago, I took a new speaker an ran it for 24 hours on pink noise very loud and had the frequencymeter of the DAW running all the time. Result: nothing. And when I listened to your results here with out seeing the switches from one file to another, I was not able to say when the was an ohter file (passive Tannoy Reaval speakers in my office). Schöne Feiertage noch.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Yep. I'm not sure I would have noticed if I hadn't been listening for changes
@mattfleming22877 ай бұрын
Thanks! You do great work. This is important for guitarists to know. I agree 100%. It’s cork sniffing at that point.
@bvanhoosen9 ай бұрын
You’re a legend John! Thanks for putting in the work to make these tests and videos!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Cheers!
@jonathanberrier50189 ай бұрын
Just found you recently, but your methodical and level headed approach is refreshing. I'm a fan. I really look forward to what you have in store (especially the tube video as I am an amp tech by trade).
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Awesome! Thanks for being here
@Greg258159 ай бұрын
This was a huge job Man. Finally somepne made it properly, or in the way it should be done. Very interesting conclusion. I would not expect that. Waiting for more of your videos. Happy New Year to you.
@joewebrocks8 ай бұрын
Wahnsinn!!! Ich habe jetzt wohl alle V30 Videos der Serie angeschaut und bin auch sehr überrascht von dem Ergebnis...aber viel mehr von der Art und Weise wie DU die Videos gemacht hast. Perfekt! Aller höchsten Respekt vor der ganzen Arbeit!!! Und danke dafür!!!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne8 ай бұрын
Dankesehr!
@joewebrocks8 ай бұрын
Deutsche Gründlichkeit 😅
@james-f18029 ай бұрын
This video is going to make a fools of us all for years to come. 😆 Thank you and happy new year!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Cheers, James! I appreciate the comment! HNY to you too!
@luca43529 ай бұрын
Great and revealing video, I'm definitely looking forward to the vacuum tube tests. I'm pretty confident, that it depends on the amps circuit and it is linked to the biasing of the amp. Plexis and JMPs/JCMs seem to show a more noticable difference between used tubes then modern tube amps. Also I think the most differences can be noticed in not super saturated preamp settings, but rather sort of AC/DC type gain level or slightly above. And finally happy new year and merry christmas to you!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thanks, Luca! Yes, I think bias plays an important role. It will take a while as there are many paramteres to consider
@dominikpohli23819 ай бұрын
great test i like your measurement with v30 type speakers
@Voodoo66Chile4 ай бұрын
Really great video as I've been obsessing with speakers, break in and "maturing". I became obsessed with this as I noticed nearly every old speaker I own (20+ years old) sounds immense better to me at all volumes, more dynamic, more alive, clearer and overall funner to play thru. I have not done anything technical in the analysis like this other than do my own experiments with a pairs of fresh speakers. My results aligned with what I was hearing in your video, that the more broken in speaker sounds slightly brighter, clearer and has more "depth" or "3d" effect for a lack of better words. I still personally prefer the older more mature, "worn" speakers as again I feel they are much more lively. The thing I noticed instantly between old speakers and fresh speakers even if broken in, the old speaker cones are much softer, more pliable and very easy to push in, which I give to the cone AND the spider being very well broken/worn in... Or tired depending on your perspective. Great watch!!!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne4 ай бұрын
Thanks! I appreciate your comment with your own experiences
@claytongouin56059 ай бұрын
Another great video. Thanks for all the effort in conducting all these experiments. It's really helpful to have channels like your that separate fact from fiction because guitarists love the idea of Mojo, but we're terrible to confirm anything outside of anecdotal evidence.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you! I very much appreciate your comment. I can't be too hard on guitarists as it took me long enough to realise that I can't trust my own mind/ears all the time either. Acoustics are tricky. The only thing worse is thermodynamics 😂
@NickLeonard9 ай бұрын
another legendary video! the results were right what I expected - something happens, but it's not worth losing sleep over it
@zanthraxus9 ай бұрын
Well I'm so late to this one that I can skip the Christmas part and go directly to saying Happy New Year! Thanks for another very interesting installment - the insane amount of work you put into these is amazing! All the best for 2024! Cheers!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
There you are! I was starting to worry! Good to see you, man! All the best to you too! Cheers
@zanthraxus9 ай бұрын
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne Thanks man! Was just a little bout of end-of-year-hectic ;)
@AlanW9 ай бұрын
As a fellow "engineer" (software), I love the talking part, looking forward to it!
@drewmcdowell16227 ай бұрын
Played bass through my closed back 1x12 G12H 55hz with my sv20 at band practice. Sounds pretty great now, wish I took a before recording so I could actually tell.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne7 ай бұрын
Sounds like a cool rig
@karolkozak648 ай бұрын
Very nice test you did here1 When i was listening to the two clips comparing each other you can definitely tell that: A sounds stiffer compared to B A sounds as if it has less harmonic content or saturation than B A sounds quieter than B in general A sounds like there's a blanket over the speaker and B is open and clear sounding
@WholeLottaBulldog9 ай бұрын
Man, I absolutely love your work. Thorough, meticulous, methodical, and funny all at the same time.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you! I appreciate the feedback
@LeonTodd9 ай бұрын
Amazing. Loved the theories at the end as well! Merry Christmas and happy New year oh aerodynamic one!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you, mate! Thanks again for having me on the pod and being an awesome person
@slymebuoy9 ай бұрын
More music science experiments, the perfect Christmas gift! Thanks John for all your brilliant work and the amazing effort you've put in to help better everyone's knowledge. Seasons greetings sir!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you very much, mate!
@roberthastings7089 ай бұрын
Very interesting. I'll need to go over this again before I comment on anything except you method. I'm just on my phone/headphones now. I find your method sound and well thought out. Certainly valid.
@mgdrud46059 ай бұрын
Love your experiments
@cmd_f59 ай бұрын
Fantastic testing and methodology! I noticed some changes in the 300 hour speaker, the others shifted slightly but I'd be hard pressed to tell which is which if I wasn't listening carefully. In some ways I liked the 0 hour speakers. Less bright and the high mids were very slightly warmer. Again, nothing I'd notice when jamming through a cab normally though. Awesome work. Happy holidays! See you next year \M/
@kwamfit9 ай бұрын
I just wanted to add my thanks here to all of the work you've done this year. I appreciate your commitment to being thorough and precise. here's to more knowledge gained in 2024!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you! This means a lot to me!
@HugoWelti9 ай бұрын
Amazing videos, as always, John! They are really informative, and it's great to finally get some tactible evidence on Internet forum myths.
@Paul_Lenard_Ewing7 ай бұрын
I am a pedal reviewer that has just passed reviewing 3000 pedals. About 80% are dirt pedals. I also use 10 guitars fitted out with all well known PU, PAF, high gain HB, P90, Strat, Tele, Rickenbacker, Gold Foil and Firebird. I am missing Lipstick, Burns and mini HB although i have owned all but the Burns at some time. My point is different is 'NOT' better or worse in 95% all cases, dirt pedals or guitar PU's. In that other 5% it is often a matter of nasty artifacts that cancel them out or simply a design to meet a price point not a pleasing sound. So the difference in all the speakers you have shown us to date is ascetics.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne7 ай бұрын
I think I know who you are. I believe you had linked my Diezel Herbert pedal video on your blog. I'm not sure I quite understand the point you are trying to make. Could you elaborate?
@savoirfaire89799 ай бұрын
The easiest and cheaper way to break-in speakers is to record a short loop on a looping pedal. Overdub with bass heavy and treble heavy layers. Plug into a cheap tube amp with a solid state amplifier, such as a Joyo Bantamp. Run through the speakers in a cab for a week or less, including periods of loud volume. The cheap tube amp will keep your expensive amps from wearing down tubes, as the Bantamp only uses a single preamp tube. The Bantamp is also super light and portable, so you can bring the amp and pedal to the speaker cabs instead of hauling them around.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Sounds like a solid process. As I mentioned, I had intended to use my Orange Micro Terror for this which also uses a single tube preamp... but somehow fried it
@JoelGrindMusic9 ай бұрын
Thanks for this. I actually really like the way your break ins after 300 hours sound, more so than the pro ones. Brighter yes, but also less congested sounding and clear. Awesome test. Subtle (but noticeable) on one speaker but if you think about great old sounding cabs, that's all 4 speakers getting that treatment which adds up I think. I never factored in what you feed the break in would change the sound but it makes sense, its getting hit with certain dominate frequencies more than others which probably loosening the speaker compliance in those ranges.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thanks man! Love your music btw!
@JoelGrindMusic9 ай бұрын
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne Thanks dude, I appreciate that!!
@figueiredomarcelobe9 ай бұрын
Thanks for this video!!! Now I can understand why the most rated rock speakers the eminence 1258 after many years played and abused is now my favorite, even friends which have tested recently said the same! Looks like the mids became more prominent, fatter Bass and little less presence, making it a very nice choice to Blues Rock on any of my amps. I remenber when I got this speaker new it wasn't usable for overdriven sounds, too bright and tiny middles...
@svenjeschke50259 ай бұрын
Thank you, John. This is really interesting and I guess nobody expected the result.
@towerpower7 ай бұрын
🤯 WOW !! Amazing job doing this!!!!! Keep up the good work !!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne7 ай бұрын
Will do! Thanks for the positive feedback
@ItsNotSafe2Swim9 ай бұрын
Great job on your testing! Fascinating work that few are tackling
@smaturock9 ай бұрын
The topic of signal dependence of the break in process literally sprang to my mind when I heard the loop you were using. Would be interesting, if it is possible to prime the speaker to one's liking with a specific bandwidth of either a sine sweep let's say within that 4-5khz range or noise (pink or white?) with a band pass or notch filter applied in said bandwidth. Anyway, keep up the great work!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you! I appreciate your support
@MrRockntube8 ай бұрын
Another great video!!! What an excellent comparison. it proves scientifically what I heard all these years.
@LB-pp7pu9 ай бұрын
Amazing video, mindblowing depth and accuracy on the test, very German! Cheers from Italy and happy holydays
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Cheers, mate! Happy holidays to you too
@CarstenLand9 ай бұрын
Hey John, really appreciate these kind of videos. I can barely imagine the work you put into them, and I can't thank you enough🙏🙏🙏 And being an engineer myself, I am literally longing for more stuff like that ❤ ...albeit the outcome might stir up some 😊 I as well am looking forward to something similar from you on tubes. After you're done with that, I'd suggest you enter (or end..?) the "does tone wood matter in solidbody guitars" debate 😂 I may just shut up now and wish everyone a happy new year❤
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
I am delighted there are other engineers out there as enthusiastic about guitar gear
@EDWINPIERCE1689 ай бұрын
Merry Christmas!! 😊
@russelw.62889 ай бұрын
You did the community a great service. 👌. Although i‘d really be interested in. 100+ hours of even response or more bass low mid heavy signal
@ivailodjadjev30645 ай бұрын
20 years as an audio enthusiast, I break in speakers that way - measure T/S parameters of the new speaker, play sine wave below Fs with power enough to reach it's Xmax. Every 2 hours I measure T/S again till the point that there's no significant difference between tha last 2 measurements. For me that's the best way - the suspension loosens and Fs goes down for extended bass reproduction. However that's important for Hi-Fi speakers, where cabinet construction and crossover networks are critical, so they have good response without EQ correction. I have never done this for guitar speakers, I just dial the tone that I like from the amplifier.
@GuvnaOnSpotify9 ай бұрын
Super interesting - loved that you did this John. Have a fantastic Christmas and New Year! Looking forward to the content for next year.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thanks mate! You too!
@SunTzuBean7 ай бұрын
Thanks for all the hard work doing this test!!! The results are interesting, but I worry that there is one thing that is missing, and I'm not sure it has been talked about in the comments: A control speaker is missing! Obviously the best thing to do would be to have 5 speakers that are EXACTLY the same and to leave one alone, and vary the amount of "break-in" time for each speaker, but since each speaker sounds different, the options are quite limited. What I propose is matching (at least) two speakers (two speakers that have a similar frequency response; not exactly the same) and comparing the difference of SPL at a few key frequencies. Then, choose one as the "control" and break in the other. Then, measure the frequency response of each speaker at set times of break-in (20 hours, 40 hours, 60 hours, etc) much like you did in the video. I'm sure there would be similar results, but as one commenter pointed out, the weather can cause the speaker to react differently. This lines up with the fact that the seasons change and so does the humidity, temperature, etc, all of which might be hidden variables in the results of this video. If you have a control speaker, this could easily dispel any doubt that the weather or some other hidden variable was the main reason for change, and not speaker break-in.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne7 ай бұрын
Thanks for the feedback and the input. I agree that that approach would be even more solid with regards to methodology. At the same time that would be a fair bit more ressource intensive and a bit beyond my scope. In general, the differences I see are not large enough to me personally to warrant further investigation into the effect of other parameters. Also, the 300 hour speaker and the two externally broken in speakers were "end of line" tested on the same day or at the very least within 24 hours of each other in pretty much the same climate and each showed a different break in pattern. I acknowledge that that is of course anectdotal but it is sufficient for me to not worry much about humidity and temperature in context of this test although I certainly think that both these paramteres can affect the tone of a speaker at least temporarily.
@nikolagenov88819 ай бұрын
Speaker breakup is real. Frequency response doesn't give you the whole picture (it gives enough to see that there's a difference though). You can also perform impedance measurements - with break-in the Fs should go lower and be a bit less tall. That's because the speaker suspension gets less stiff (more compliant - CMS goes up). I suggest that you also check the harmonic distortion graphs that are already there in REW anyway - slight changes are possible there as well because speaker suspension nonlinearities are one of the main reasons for harmonic distortion. IMD is also affected but you need specific measurements to see that...
@luca43529 ай бұрын
At that point is it really relevant as a guitar player/recording engineer anymore?
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Those are some great suggestions! Thank you! Duely noted
@GCKelloch9 ай бұрын
Very interesting. Could be that lower-level high freq signals loosen up the surround more uniformly than higher-level low freq signals, which would mainly allow more cone movement below the resonance point of the surround bends. The test also shows how a speaker Z curve affects the response of a Hi-Z tube amp very differently than a Low-Z SS or class D amp. The mid dip of the tube amp follows the speaker Z curve.
@CoolestMcGuy9 ай бұрын
Thanks for these great videos and merry christmas! i agree with your theories on why, and i also have my own test i conducted a little over a year ago, semi-related. i've done my own test, not that scientific, but more relating to heat. my hypothesis was that environmental factors (warmth, moisture) affected my toanz. my method of testing was pre-heating an open back 2x12 with a space heater for 15 minutes, not aimed directly at the back, only increase the ambient temp of the cab. week 1 was a control, week 2 was the test week, and week 3 was another control. week 1&3 was consistent and i never noticed any more change than my usual recordings. week 2 was, relatively speaking, """smoother""" sounding and had a less pronounced midrange. additionally, after letting the cab (and amp!) cool and settle down and then some, on the same day a few hours later they would sound "cold" again and match with the control weeks. my conclusion: environmental factors matter a lot more than what i originally thought. of course, this test was an extreme, but it proved a point. my theory: material expands, and thus becomes less resistant to the movements of the voice coil. the cone and/or spider may absorb moisture and add weight (and thus resistance) to movement. that being said, my usual recordings vary a noticeable (though not major) amount due to, what i theorize, is said warmth and moisture
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thanks man! You too! You're test sounds really, really cool!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
... or hot. I may have to look into that parameter
@christophgrubor73659 ай бұрын
Great video, as always! By watching it, i thought:"please, talk about the dip about ca. 2.8kHz going down even more over the testing period of speaker 50." Because: This is a crucial frequency area in the human hearing. And, bringing frequencies down, has the effect of feeling other frequencies being featured. But, in the end it doesn't even matter. (Where did i hear that phrase, before?!🤔😂) I didn't hear drastic shifts, only slight ones.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you, my friend!
@EugeValovirta230V8 ай бұрын
Thank You man! Great stuff!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne8 ай бұрын
Cheers, Euge!
@EugeValovirta230V8 ай бұрын
Cheerios! @TheOtherJohnBrowne 😎
@oozede90359 ай бұрын
Wow. That was a great video and the results are very interesting.
@jcwear899 ай бұрын
Really enjoyed this video , and enjoy all your videos!❤
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Cheers, my friend!
@kenazmusic71796 ай бұрын
I think the worn in speakers sound more "round" in die upper mids/ presence and a bit less harsh/ edgy (suddle). Might not really matter in a mix. btw...great video!
@yngvai7779 ай бұрын
Thanks for doing this and dispelling this myth once and for all. I’m going to enjoy the epic tones from my brand new EVH 2 x 12. Merry Christmas.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Merry Christmas! Those cabs are cool! I usef to have one
@tobins68009 ай бұрын
Merry Christmas. Thank you for this whole thing. Have you checked out the TDR plugin Prism?
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
You're welcome, mate! No, I hadn't heard of it before. Looks cool! Thanks for the recommendation
@Shred_Rocket9 ай бұрын
John, have you considered measuring the actual static resistance (not impedance) of a speaker before and after break-in? Whereas impedance is the change in resistance based on frequency and would not be a reliable static measurement. I'm assuming that the current going through the coil at length will impact it as well, just like any resistor changes after time-just my thoughts. In any event thanks for taking the time and in-depth analysis of these speakers, I find it fascinating!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
That's a good idea. I might have to do one more test with another speaker down the road, employing some lessons learned. In my big V30 shootout, I checked the speakerd with a multimeter and they all read the same DC resistance but I might have to do a more accurate measurement before and after with a more accurate LCR meter.
@themog49119 ай бұрын
Merry Christmas John :)
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Merry Christmas, Moggo!
@K707OR309 ай бұрын
Only at the beginning but dude THANK YOU I’ve wanted to know scientifically whether speaker break in is real or bullshit, and if real what is it really. Can’t wait to see the results.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
I hope it satisfies your curiosity
@K707OR309 ай бұрын
@@TheOtherJohnBrowneit totally did! Great analysis. This was super fascinating especially that the speakers got brighter in general which like you said, baseless internet horseshit would have us believe the opposite. Whether that’s because of the signal eq profile you used to break the speaker in was “biased” toward those frequencies, who knows. But I also ultimately reached the same conclusion - it didn’t matter all that much. By no means does that make the test worthless or pointless, quite the opposite. What I arrived at, as I have so many other things, is that you can generally EQ these shifts out or in to your liking and most importantly - if it sounds good/you like the way it sounds, that’s all that really matters. I’d still be interested to see if the overall tonal profile of the break in signal does bias the speaker to accentuate those frequencies after break in but I understand if you don’t want to do that, it would be an even bigger undertaking than this experiment was. I’d also be interested to see if that same method would bump the low end on your already broken in speakers that were biased toward high end bumps, and thus showing whether you can continue breaking in a broken in speaker. In any case, I think things like EQ and grille cloth (see Jim Lill’s speaker cabinet video but I’m sure you have) probably have a more pronounced and immediate effect on the tone than break in. And in a mix, you wouldn’t hear most of any of this break in differential because of cymbal wash frequencies covering it up. Again super fascinating, thanks for putting in the work and having tight controls and great analysis!
@piggybackride895 ай бұрын
Amazing!
@OTTOAUDIO9 ай бұрын
Loe your work man
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thank you, my friend
@Brandon-RZ9 ай бұрын
Cool video here man!
@Werecatyouth139 ай бұрын
Awesome work! Loving the channel 🤘 hoping to see a comparison of all V30 type clones in the future. The Eminence CV-75 is a personal favorite of mine and would be awesome to see how it holds up with Celestion V30, WSG Veterans, Mojotone BV30, ect.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Thanks, man! Yeah! I need to find a used CV-75 because nobody in Europe seems to stock them anymore
@TheWolvesCurse9 ай бұрын
again highly interesting content! thank you for putting in the effort (and cash)!
@douglasdog15 ай бұрын
Really enjoying your V30 videos. Have you tried a Celestion G10 Vintage? Its my favourite “mixing” speaker. It shares the same voice coil design as the V30, only it doesn’t have a lot of lows or harsh highs. It has a beautiful mid range and really fills out a 12”. I’ve been mixing it with either a V30 or a G12H30. I get nice lows and highs from the 12” and a great punchy mid range.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne5 ай бұрын
No. I have yet to try any 10" speaker. I do like your description though.
@danielringl85019 ай бұрын
Nothing like a good scientific mythbusting for Christmas - delivered without yelling to mask up unscientific approaches 😅 Merry Christmas!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Cheers, buddy! I hope you have a great Christmas and a short break before things get huge next year!
@Pitti4449 ай бұрын
Great video! Thank you so much for all this hard work you do to provide us with these incredible informative videos.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Cheers!
@thorinbaneАй бұрын
I would use my solid state rocktron speaker out to play speakers at about 85 Db for a week. They did eventually break in and brought out some highs in the greenback 10s I was breaking in. It sounded better foresure, but not sure if it was massive earth shaking difference. I wish I had recorded pre and post breakin.
@nigel78809 ай бұрын
Talk to Bob Gjika about Mesa Celestions and breaking in by hand. His CL80 cab beats all and he breaks the speakers in three ways.
@marvelharris95409 ай бұрын
Excellent job... transformers seem to be a very controversial topic lately... country of origin and price being factors. It would be great to take on the question of transformer mythology.. what is fact and what is false!
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
I'd love to investigate that
@Judas_Umbrella9 ай бұрын
Conlusion is very interesting
@Durkhead9 ай бұрын
I think ive figured it out. The build up of moisture and dust in the cone makes the speaker weigh more which is what effects the sound. Just likenwhen you add weights ro a speaker
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Moisture/environmental conditions could absolutely play a role
@picpouille9 ай бұрын
I think that room humidity is changing the tone. My amps regardless of tube or solid state don't feel the same from day to day. Maybe just my ears though.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Could absolutely be a factor
@scottprice89945 ай бұрын
After all that, speaker break-in is real, but it does not matter. Ha ha
@TheOtherJohnBrowne5 ай бұрын
Pretty much sums it up! Lol
@NacekO8 ай бұрын
Well this totally satisfied my inner nerd :D
@sammyrothrock69814 ай бұрын
Low frequency seems like it would break in better
@YsAbTones9 ай бұрын
Merry xmas, interesting vid !
@firelandmetal29335 ай бұрын
it is hard to see the difference from a freq responce because the db scale is huge. try fab filter match eq you can take as reference the 0 hour and then measure at 100 hours and it will show just the difference. it is more easy to see small differences.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne5 ай бұрын
Good tip. Thanks
@WholeLottaBulldog9 ай бұрын
Celestion info Daddy is back. Daddy Browne.
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
LOL
@mylife11649 ай бұрын
There is one important physics behaviour that you haven’t been measured. That is the transient response of the speaker. A stiff unbroken inn speaker, will be slower in transient response. So, listening to a high-quality Hi-FI loudspeaker, the sound I less resolver when it is new. After meany hours the sound stage and musicality are clearly better. Audiophiles are experience this bettering sound quality as the speaker is broken inn. The better loudspeaker the more notable difference.
@lost_in_gravy8 ай бұрын
So, usage of speakers alters the sound. I guess, most of us expected that. I don't think that the frequency response of the raw chassis matters all that much, compared to cabinet and room environment. What you somehow ignored is the dynamic response, which will change with time, as the membrane and the spider very likely will have different stiffness compared to new after millions or billions of movements back and forth. Just wiggle any material 1 billion times and it will become softer, which means that the dynamic response of the cone should improve or at least change over time. Any thoughts on that?
@TheOtherJohnBrowne8 ай бұрын
Hey man. Apprecite the comment. Wouldn't the live FFTs of Voxengo SPAN while playing back both audio sources cover dynamic response? How would you suggest I quantify dynamic response?
@lost_in_gravy8 ай бұрын
@@TheOtherJohnBrowne Sorry, I'm not too much of a technical nerd when it comes to measuring speakers. I do know however, that there is such a thing as waterfall diagrams, which capture the time-dependant aspect of a speaker. When it comes to gitar speakers, I have made the experience that some chassis will feel quite a bit snappier than others, even in the same cabinet. I used to own a 1968 Marshall 4x12 which had completely worn out speakers, to a degree that every hard pick stroke would feel and sound mushy. Nowadays, I like speakers with fast and precise transients, which make me feel much better "connected". Currently I have a cabinet with two EVM 12S - snappy as a slingshot and a real boulder to carry around, but well worth it. I guess, speaker sound is much more than just frequency response.
@blgdinger36 ай бұрын
2:54 bro you sound fucking nuts subbed
@SoloSi20247 ай бұрын
Big question is do you want to buy new, and break it in in your amp, or is it better to buy a second hand speaker that's been broken in in another amp?
@TheOtherJohnBrowne7 ай бұрын
Given the choice, I always buy used. Hate buyibg new
@willchug9 ай бұрын
A broken early Z batch cone V30 😞
@TheOtherJohnBrowne9 ай бұрын
Mate, I wanted to punch myself in the face...
@montyrayza72205 ай бұрын
Great Job bro, I thoroughly enjoyed your process - Also you should ask people to like, comment and subscribe on the regular - we will respond. I know it is hard to do so for considerate nice folk like yourself but do it anyway because we requested it, lol. We want you to succeed. Cheers
@TheOtherJohnBrowne5 ай бұрын
I very much appreciate the kind words and your support. This comment made my day