Is Stealth Gameplay Better Than Direct Combat? | Slightly Civil War

[@theescapist]

Listen to the Show After podcast: soundcloud.com/user-944993929/is-stealth-gameplay-better-than-direct-combat or find it on Spotify, iTunes, or Stitcher. Leave a review if you enjoy the show, it helps us out!

[@lyadh0451]

Where is the new episode?

[@timhanson3678]

These debates got more fun as Yahtzee started realizing he can troll his own position.

[@Grinnar]

I started watching when he started doing that. So it's been only fun.

[@142doddy]

Stealth is of course optimal. Unless I'm seen because that was when I decided to enter combat, definitely 100% on purpose

[@quiett6191]

"yep........................................totally meant to do that." Every stealth gamer ever.

[@142doddy]

@@quiett6191 you know

[@Yakshimara]

I didn't want to continue that streak anyways.

[@sineadthomas2024]

I didn’t want a perfect score. Then I’d have to do all the other levels. I don’t need it anyway. It’s just imaginary game points

[@alangreenway6695]

Depends on the risk level of your character against the enemies: If you’re playing as a seven year old child, you should be avoiding the seven foot zombies. If you’re a steroided alien cyborg with more guns than hands to use them, you should be confronting the fluffy bunny guards.

[@arthurgrmg2850]

Unfortunately most stealth games are now of the stealth-action genre that have counterintuitively blended two opposite ideas into the same gameplay. You can slaughter dozens of enemies, have regenerative health, have checkpoints or free quicksaves everywhere which makes me wonder why stealth is even there and why should anyone bother with it outiside of arbitrary missions with instant fails when detected.

[@Andri474]

I heard tales of particularly VICIOUS monster that just happens to look like a bunny. It would certainly be a VERY BAD IDEA to just charge right at the bunnies.

[@quiett6191]

@@arthurgrmg2850 Very True. In my opinion, true stealth games protagonists have to have some weakness that necessitates stealth. This could be done with gameplay, eg the early Splinter Cell games with their janky weapon aiming. Hitman may be the exception to this, but it does give you a higher score, the quieter you accomplish a mission. So players can try to go quieter and quieter to get the "Silent Assassin" score These days, too many confuse the blending of combat action and stealth action genre as actual stealth.

[@professoroat1310]

I mean it's technically stealth if you blow everyone up before they can react

[@quiett6191]

True. Stealth does deal with awareness. One can't be aware of anything if one's brains have been ventilated by a bullet, or obliterated by explosives, before one is (ahem) aware of any danger.

[@JustSomeRandomIdiot]

I mean. They never saw you. So yeah.

[@doginhat13]

Or kill everyone so no one knows you're there

[@Goatboy451]

Nothing like the feeling of sneaking up behind your enemies and stabbing them. And then playing computer games afterwards.

[@alexandermutsaers2693]

"Which is better, stealth or direct combat?" Batman: "Yes"

[@amaplepaladin5700]

Eh, i don’t entirely agree with the notion that stealth and direct combat are in competition, DOOM with stealth would be atrocious, and so would Hitman without disguises or quiet kills. Both have a place, and that place is only somewhat overlapped.

[@dogwithatie]

But Hitman is not really representative of the typical stealth game like Metal Gear or splinter cell

[@andregon4366]

Agreed. They look similar aesthetically, but the gameplay they're as different as sports is different from a platformer.

[@pretends2know]

Well, I'm glad to know that my playthroughs of Hitman are still secret if someone says it's the best example of a stealth game.

[@duckboiii4441]

Tbh, what usually happens when I play Hitman is I get seen by the guards then I hide in a bathroom waiting for them to wade through the sea of fresh corpses, poke their head round the corner, then get shot. My record for highest kills was 125 Guards. I’m shit at the game.

[@TheGriffintatt]

This may help explain Sekiro not quite clicking for Yahtzee: taking the stealth too slowly and methodically. To me it seemed to be made for stealth at a sprint: Shish-kebab the first guard from a great height; take out one or two more in a quick flurry while they're still going "Wha...?"; sprint/grapple away to break line-of-sight (fireworks optional); circle around and blindside the others as they come looking for you. Annoying slow repeat runs to bosses and mini-bosses become exhilarating little speedrun challenges.

[@TheIronArmenianakaGIHaigs]

I started playing Watchdogs 2 a week back. Almost finished the main story. The dev should have thought about drooping the GTA vibe and gone down a more pacifist/stealth route. You can stealth most mission but it's so much more easyer to go in guns blazing. The main character has so many tools and gadgets it could easily be full on stealth game.

[@arkheavyindutries]

For me it was even out of character to use guns, so I cleared the game in non lethal/stealth. Much more enjoyable experience, in my opinion.

[@Deejy1]

I’m just stealthing it tbh. So far there’s only been two missions where I couldn’t just use my drones to do everything

[@arthurgrmg2850]

Superbunnyhop makes the same argument in his reviews, the guns should have been removed and the game would be better as a pure stealth game

[@wumbosaurus9121]

I feel the guns blazing route just doesn't work with the characters in WD2 anyway. It's just too disconnected from the tone of the game. WD1 has a dark tone with a guy who literally has the aesthetic of a mass shooter, what with the dark trench coat, cap and face mask. General combat also felt better in the first game. It felt like playing through an action movie with the way Aiden parkours across obstacles and how he reacts and stumbles when gunshots or explosions ring nearby. If you get good enough and play it right you feel like you're playing as John Wick

[@minias1444]

I was waiting for Jack to pull out the card about one of Yahtzees favorite games being the old Thief. Missed a hit there i think.

[@Colopty]

They're supposed to argue for/against the merits of the position itself, not make personal attacks against the debate opponent for having a history of not supporting the position they were randomly assigned for the debate. Your suggestion is how you get kicked out of debate club.

[@minias1444]

@@Colopty You know what, your absolutely right. That would make it a bit directed and personal. I was in my high schools debate club 100 years ago but couldnt tell you the first thing about it.

[@joshchu]

"Stealth is thinking mans' action" - Jack Packard I'm gonna print that on black t-shirts, with a tiny three green dots logo.

[@quiett6191]

I'd buy it!

[@maewilkes8883]

Yes please!

[@southparkking2]

Take my money when it's done

[@toprak3479]

man's* it would've been men's if it was plural, no?

[@harrymanocha4533]

Stealth is not always the "smart" option. It can be hiding in the same place, killing dudes in the same way while building up an obvious like of corpses to which the AI is oblivious. Likewise, combat is not always the "brainless", brutish option. Look at tactical or cooperative shooters, or games like DOOM 2016 that consistently push you to change the way you fight mid-battle. Furthermore, the idea that stealth is "slow" and combat is "fast" is also riddled with misconceptions. Chainstabbing your way through a Far Cry outpost is, for example, often much faster than hiding behind a single piece of cover and poking your nose out to shoot the oncoming reinforcement waves.

[@larzanthony2275]

Far cry combat is way faster than stealth. You don’t get to chain stab in most situations while you can pop heads anytime anywhere.

[@DarthVella]

Can we take a moment to appreciate the humor in the animation? Because it has been fantastic recently!

[@sharpshootingsaint30]

Work both angles, stealth till you mess up then, start blowing the place up.

[@OfNoImport]

Jack: "Let me look out my window, hmmm know what I don't see? Knights or Bushido Samurai! Know why?" Me: "...cause you're in the United States? And not Japan? Or Europe? Or playing a game of Civilization?"

[@HUNbullseye]

The Borg prefers direct action. Debate is futile.

[@aukondk]

The answer is the opening scene of True Lies. Perfect stealth infiltration with bits of improvisation until a guard stops Arnie on the way out. "Here's my invitation... BOOM!" Full action escape with dogs and motor ski things. A game like that would be perfect.

[@SmashMacVideos]

Jin having a conversation with his uncle

[@dragonandavatarfan8865]

LMAO

[@RoseAlchemist22]

This is why I like games that offer the best of both worlds. Lately I have been playing Horizon Zero Dawn and I always use stealth around machines I don't have a strategy for. Once I get comfortable killing a new machine type I will switch to just directly attacking it whenever.

[@bikershark9]

Once you get the best armor you get foolishly overconfident and don't bother hiding from anyone anymore.

[@alloounou6900]

Who needs stealth or action when you can play strategy games and never get your hands dirty?

[@CAP198462]

Whoa, going to need some clarification here. Forced stealth where detection is automatic game over or stealth with the option to fight it out in the event of failure cascade.

[@kuramacon]

I always get such a big rush from successfuly stealthily navigating an area with silent kills than I do going in guns blasing.

[@dannymccrea9642]

But at the same time, in some games, like doom for example, it’s extremely satisfying to jump from enemy to enemy narrowly avoiding death and being a tornado of death

[@aaronwebb1548]

Thank you so much for phasing this one as a for or against statement Yahtz

[@E1craZ4life]

I suppose TF2 players can identify their preferred method of gameplay based on their favorite class to play.

[@kuramacon]

What does the medic say about me?

[@hehehaha0054]

Josh Heckman hitler

[@Nikke-nn5mn]

@@kuramacon You care more about winning than having fun

[@mattevans4377]

My favourite class is Pyro. Fire solves all problems...

[@udhsids]

@@kuramacon in any rpg you mostly play a good person that would heal or buffs others with some questionable comments. At the same time you bit insane or bit battle hungry (or both) but keep it mostly in check (mostly). Also you would jump at anything attempt to get more money even if is questionable.

[@Adam-vb3rt]

So I drop my sword and you drop your rock and we try to kill each other like civilized people? --- the Dread Pirate Westly

[@skyscreamstudios]

I really enjoy these. Doesn't matter which topic or who is for/against.

[@carlosmiguelteixeiraott3643]

'Two hunks of meat slamming against each other' is a metaphor that works for SOME things (*wink,wink).

[@fortunatesoul12]

Yathzee will have to give Garrett a bunch of nice gifts to gain his trust again after that whole argument

[@theescapist]

Podcast: soundcloud.com/user-944993929/is-stealth-gameplay-better-than-direct-combat (BOOKMARK THE SOUNDCLOUD PAGE :) )

[@SerLoinSteak]

On the point as to why we don't see samurai or knights, it's the same reason for both actually: guns. Knights and samurai were primarily melee fighters (samurai being more well rounded in that they also usually included archery in their usual arsenal (which isn't to say knights didn't engage in archery, they just didn't focus as heavily)) which puts them at a disadvantage when against ranged opponents, thus plate mail was developed to protect against arrow fire. But guns came along which could punch through plate before getting deflected and so it was determined that the best way to beat an army of guns was with another army with guns and so melee combat fell out of favor.

[@Altoryu]

There are some days I like it and some days I don't though I think one thing most people can agree on is when stealth is shoehorned in where it doesn't belong. Those games where you are generally going in guns blazing and they decide to stick you in a stealth section where if you get detected even once it's game over.

[@Timmy_T]

Stealth wins

[@Mothman1992]

[@InverseAgonist]

Now that they've acknowledged the positions in these debates are absurd, they're really leaning into the silly arguments.

[@superchroma]

Yeah it was a bit tepid. I'd prefer some consideration for good games from either genre.

[@sineadthomas2024]

SuperChromatic Or you could have funny haha.

[@kilroy987]

A fair mix works well with composition, as long as there is a good balance. Having both is better than having only one or the other, as long as they both occur in good measure.

[@dragonandavatarfan8865]

Yathzee out here talking like Lord Shimura lmao.

[@Kinos141]

Stealth has more strategy and gameplay options. For example, I stealthly took out a group of bandits so I can kill their boss in 1 on 1. Then, I replayed it when I had more abilities and went all out on his J. crew.

[@Garlly34]

Stealth can make you feel intelligent, or prove, your intelligence. Action can make you feel skilled, or prove your skills.

[@evilbritishguy3581]

I believe Stealth is most fun when the enemies make the player really want to hide and avoid being found. However, because Stealth Action Games usually offer players the ability to hide and fight their foes, there is little reason for the player to hide well if they can also fight off whoever finds them. When the player is found by one enemy, it's usually not long before more enemies try to stop the player, and reinforcements are called i.e a cockupcascade ensues. Its usually for this reason that many players opt to save scum in order to avoid making any mistakes. Imagine instead a Stealth Game where the more mistakes the player makes, the more careless enemies will become until foes no longer believe the player character poses any threat. Of course, the better the player performs the more enemies that will try to stop the player.

[@valcant940]

To me the satisfaction of ripping everything to shreds in doom or entering and leaving an area in hitman without anyone ever knowing i was there is equally gratifying (obviously)

[@Blue2x2x]

Stealth Pro: One Action Takedowns Con: Once get spotted, game over... Literally. Direct Combat Pro: That Badass feeling after you take down an entire room of enemies, like you're John Wick himself. Con: Instead of John Wick, you enter the same room as yourself right now.

[@They_are_Arthur]

The Metal Gear series in my opinion has really good stealth gameplay, as for each enemy in most of the games, you can dispatch them in many different ways. In MGS1, you could either throw the enemy and run like hell towards the exit of the room, punch them down into a short knockout phase, choke hold them to death (or knockout), or use the SOCOM with a suppressor to kill an enemy from afar. In MGS2, you could demand enemies to freeze and destroy their radios, you could put them to sleep with tranquilizer rounds, and even drag their bodies into hiding places to keep them from being found. This type of stealth allowed for quick thinking and decision making even without alerting the guards.

[@faytleingod1851]

Personally I enjoy a game where the enemy over powers me. Forcing me to avoid or sneak attack. But once I gain a good understanding (or better equipment which I like less) I can take them on because I know how to combat then efficiently. In a pure combat game, fighter or shooter, I feel less likely to have a memorable experience. Where as stealth I need a full understanding of the level and my enemy leaving me more engaged with a more memorable experience. I'd also much rather prefer a game like crisis where I can do both in equal amounts. Choosing speed or invisibility or invulnerability. We need more games like that.

[@SnuSnuDungeon]

Let's have a nice clean debate lads!

[@keciascarbrough9706]

They're both fun and you need a strategy for both.For combat you don't want to be the first to die so you have to dodge some attacks or what's the point.Learning the other characters moves is a plus.For stealth it's mostly one of those escape without getting caught games some games are tricky so you have to do things in a certain order or you get busted.Its best to save when you can though.

[@Eyeball117]

Stealth is satisfying when you pull it off but it's also really fun to just yell "LEEROOOOOY JEEENKIIINS" and just rip and tear until it is done.

[@chadnorris8257]

This is why I enjoy games like Shadow of Mordor/War. It mixes them in, and you can be good at both. It's not the kind of fighting game where you're forced to run into a fort and fight it out in the open, and it's not the kind of stealth game where you're screwed as soon as you're spotted. Although the enemies could probably do with some heightened awareness, since it should not be possible to crouch walk right in front of someone, and stealth kill them before they finish reacting to spotting you.

[@henrywarmoth1792]

I came here to watch some fun stuff about video games and I found a refined, thoughtful metaphor for corporate corruption in modern society.

[@nathanrandomized3593]

Love how "things" is just a censory bar

[@rattlehead999]

They do NOT compare. Both are different equivalents, it's up to preference. The only reason Stealth combat is more appealing is because for each game with stealth combat as an option(or as the only form of combat), there are 1000x other direct combat games that don't have stealth combat at all.

[@BushidoMauve]

Ghost of tsushima really made going loud super fun. I wasn't as tempted to do stealth because they added the "catch these hands" button.

[@ReikokuNinja]

This debate is essentially Ninja's V.S. Samurai.

[@slothfulcobra]

I kinda prefer the idea of stealth, because games that have some kind of focus on it normally make their actual combat quick and to the point rather than letting fights drag on forever. Of course, all the waiting in stealth games can be tedious as well. Making good gameplay is hard. I feel like the Witcher games take an aspect of that by making long runups for the player to track and get ready for the boss, so there's buildup that the actual fight releases in a catharsis. It also makes the most out of your enemies so a game will end up with a far lower killcount than the more action-focused games that throw waves and waves of men at you to pad out time.

[@TheAntiburglar]

Oh my. I do love a good sneaky stabbing, but I rather prefer a giant melee

[@Nulono]

I think the _Sly Cooper_ games do a really good job of combining stealth and action. It's a pity so few people talk about them nowadays.

[@ShahStark]

Knowing how much Yahtzee loves Thief this must have been hard for him

[@bryanlamm8107]

For what it's worth, I like to imagine that stealth is the only 'realistic' way for one person to conquer an entire army. I'm not great at it, so try for stealth as much as possible to soften up the enemy force, then mop up the rest in open combat.

[@CorsairSoul]

Just gonna say, Tenchu is one of my favourite games of all time, and there was nothing more satisfying than grandmastering all the levels!

[@mathdemigod8162]

I don't know if this is intentional or not, but you seem to be releasing the podcast that takes place afterward a week early. As this video is dropping, my podcast app has next afterward to week's debate about consoles.

[@theescapist]

The episodes release first on the website, then KZbin a week later, that's why it seems off. All of our Premium video series are posted to KZbin one week after the website version.

[@electric_boogaloo496]

Stealth is only fun when implemented properly like Metal Gear Solid 5, or Hitman. Some games try to incentivize stealth of outright giving you more XP, like Deus Ex Human Revolution, but the mechanics and motivations still don't lend themselves to making stealth as enjoyable as the 2 games I mentioned.

[@charlesg9422]

Why doesn't this video have like a million views? You guys are awesome.

[@kevcroft2939]

Yep, has to be a good ol stealthy, one-by-one take out for me. Some of my favourite parts of Far Cry has been sneaking around taking outposts unseen

[@bobtom1495]

It just depends. If you have the time, then stealth I suppose. But if you're impatient and just want to get straight to the action, then direct is best.

[@ThePa1riot]

This was a lot more philosophical than I expected.

[@jimmalybob4829]

I think while direct combat can often get a bit dull, stealth is much more susceptible to becoming frustrating because its so easy for the player’s idea of what should register as being seen and the game’s idea of what registers as being seen to be different. I think stealth really relies on the game properly conveying to the player what the AI is capable of. I would also agree that how long stealth takes to do and how little actual physical input it involves makes it tedious to repeat when you mess up. By that point you’ve already done all of the thinking required to work out how to get past the earlier sections - It’s just a matter of doing the waiting part again, now with nothing else for you to think about.

[@88Opportunist]

A distinction needs to made here. Are we talking Stealth like Thief, MGS or the original ACs or stealth like MGS5 and the newer ACs? Jack seemed to be arguing stealth games whereas Yahtzee was just arguing taking 2 hours to take out a Far Cry outpost. Anyone remember when Far Cry had a sound meter?

[@therealdudeski]

Stealth gameplay that's treated as the the primary focus of the game is much more optimal in my view. Because typically good stealth gameplay translates to good combat if you're not too handicapped. Combat games that try to shoe horn stealth sections in do not translate as well. You tend to have much more options in stealth games as well

[@Daorf]

I think the real problem is that the way most games implement stealth is still direct combat, not a pacifist route. You're still attacking and usually killing anyone who is between you and your objective, just with their backs turned. Very few stealth games are actually combat-less, and that seems to be more the speciality of horror games these days. Specifically, the exact horror games Yahtzee often applauds.

[@DrFunkman]

Stealth is often more fun when it’s optional. When it’s forced, it’s a slow process of waiting for the right opportunity, hoping the game doesn’t fuck you over. When it’s optional, you can use stealth as an advantage to then dominate in an open fight which, depending on the game mechanics, can be a more fun fast-based test of your skills

[@Super_Ammo]

Found the AAA developer.

[@sirjmo]

Stealth gameplay being better than direct combat depends on ease of execution on both systems. It's hard to give stealth enough difficulty without going overboard, it's also hard to fck up direct combat making it feel unsatisfactory to hit. So sometimes it's better to be the stealth sniper(hitman, thief, etc.) and sometimes to be the smashing knight (dynasty warriors, smash bros, etc.).

[@ghouliethousandtrouser2905]

The topic of discussion today: Is food better than sleep? I dunno, but it's sure to generate us some better numbers than anything else we can come up with.

[@themetalone7739]

You're both wrong. The correct answer is to use stealth until you inevitably fuck it up, THEN you use direct combat while praying you don't get killed and have to do all that stealth "waiting" all over again.

[@Andri474]

Both are good if the game in question is designed for each specific style. That's why we have stealth games and action games (then there's games that try to do both, but very few succeed, most recently Sekiro and Ghost of Tsushima). Now, is stealth really better than ripping and tearing, even if we have at least one game for each style that's really good? It comes down to what you prefer. For me it IS better, because while I can rip and tear all the demons any time I want, it takes a lot of careful planning to pull off the heist of the century, and being a master thief really gets the adrenaline pumping.

[@3DHT]

Knights and Samurai weren't taken out by ninjas and assassins. They were taken out by peasants with crossbows and muskets. The last cavalry charge ended in a whimper at the start of WWI.

[@rishabsinha8230]

Stealth ftw!

[@ElDocBruh]

Okay this one got super ridiculous super fast, and I'm all for it.

[@logicallayman2267]

When there is a choice I usually have two saves One stealth for challenge One direct combat for fun

[@shiknobi2055]

Stealth to feel sophisticated, direct combat to have fun, games to feel.. something

[@matthewfoor2390]

Stealth is great when done well and made equally available and also made equally as rewarding as going loud.

[@fuzzyfreestyle7952]

In terms of gameplay and entertainment I’m a club thumping direct style gamer. Addictive gameplay loops beat waiting. Though, you’re right, the world could use more thinkers.

[@ziro6319]

Me I'm personally all about going in guns blazing. As a wise man once said "I bring my own alarm"

[@84jesterx]

Have you guys discussed if games are too long or too short for your buck?

[@The6thMessenger]

I honesty don't think you can just "mash your way". Take Doom for example, it's a fast-paced game with a high skill ceiling, that requires twitchy shooting. With stealth games, all you have to do is know enemy movements, meanwhile you have a lot of time to strategize compared to Doom Eternals strategy-on-the-fly.

[@cachotognax3600]

>anyone can win by mashing their way to victory as in most games I guess most games are... bad then? >Stealth is a game of waiting Play invisible inc. >In direct combat it's all reactive Play Furi for a while

[@Kingblizzardyoutubeboss]

Metro pulls off both stealth and loud really well

[@carlosalbertotorres6609]

If the game industry was forced to choose from making ONLY stealth or action games from now on, the masses would come together and agree that stealth games are the better option. There's so much more possible variety that can stem from stealth where as pure action is more limited and would get old very fast. Action is a brighter candel but it burns out much quicker.

[@emilybroderick2421]

More games need to utilize social stealth, as far as I'm concerned. I enjoy crawling through bushes and behind walls as much as the next person, but social stealth is a vast sea of underappreciated potential just waiting for more developers to dive in and blow our minds.

[@jasonfrancese8359]

I feel like if Yahtzee brought up complex character action games, most all of Jack’s arguments immediately get questioned.

[@aylmaoxdxddd5687]

There is something satisfying about facing your enemies head on, of course sneaking can be satisfying too I guess.

[@paradoxinraindrops141]

It’s not that one or the other is objectively rather how the game is balanced & which that leads you to prefer: Dishonored is an example where my fun comes how differently I find myself approaching aspects of the game down to traversal, managing fail states, so on and so forth. But I can’t say I get the same kicks out of a segmented stealth segment in most triple-A games.

[@AquilaLupus9]

In the real world, stealth perhaps ensures a higher survivability and requires meticulous planning. However, in video games, there are NO "tactics" employed when playing stealthy. Why? Because enemies follow a pattern and loop around. All you have to do is recognize their repetitive habits and take them out 1 by 1. There is no thinking at in all that. It's just a waiting game. If anything, it's harder to survive in a game when you have 20+ NPCs to kill in one go because they're all trying to kill you at once.

[@1morbidity]

Yes, stealth gives the control back to the player. The control to slowly approach someone and kill them with a single button press, repeated several times

[@danyl1985]

I see stealth and open combat as two sides of the same coin. Either way engages the game. When you think about it, either way is still the player versus the game. Stealth and open combat can both become tedious and boring depending how the game is designed. It's ironic that in Ghost of Tsushima I felt less honorable challenging a group of enemies to a standoff and killing up to 5 of them with only timing than I did sneaking around and trying to find an opening in a fort's defenses.

[@Just4Fun-Zocker]

Doesn't it depend on the game?

[@utisti4976]

Here's my take: Stealth is at its best when it complements combat and is completely optional. Dishonored and Sekiro are the best examples when it comes to this.

[@adamalden7368]

I actually super duper enjoyed this please make more

[@al-muthannaathamneh120]

Jack could’ve won the debate easily if he brought up immersion because stealth gameplay can be really immersive (e.g. Thief 2) where it is difficult to have that in direct combat.

[@PaladinGear15]

I love slightly civil war so damn much, it's even better than Zero punctuation, and that's a high bar.

[@michaeldunleavy3868]

Have a crafty day everyone

[@coenneedell3908]

I just wanna say I love the podcast. It's a really good pairing with all the games I play that Yahtzee would hate. May it live for a thousand years and anyone who disagrees can sit on a knife. Or a pillow, whatever floats your goat.