Is Story More Important Than Gameplay? | Slightly Civil War

[@theescapist]

Podcast: soundcloud.com/user-944993929/is-story-more-important-than-gameplay ALSO on Spotify, Sticher and iTunes. Watch today's Slightly Civil War episode - Was The Last of Us Really That Good? - www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/was-the-last-of-us-really-that-good-slightly-civil-war/

[@markhackett2302]

The problem is this: games need gameplay. Story keeps you playing. Tetris proves point #2 from Yahtzee wrong. End of. A game HAS to entertain, and it has to have gameplay to do it. Story has to support gameplay. Story can abut the gameplay, and it can even replace where gameplay fails, but it can only bridge from one section of gameplay to another. Story can be the thing that DECIDES what gameplay is. The Uncharted series started with the same story as Tomb Raider, the same as Raiders of the Lost Arc, the same as the schlock stories of the weekend serials. But the story from each is kinda meaningless. The story is there to decide what the spectacle will contain. For a movie that is the scenes, acts and conflict. For games it is the games. Story "MAKES A GAME". But a game requires gameplay. And the story makes the game better.

[@Fluxquark]

Really looking forward to Yahtzee's ZP review of TLoU2, I'm betting he's going to tear it to shreds lol

[@freddiekruger3339]

"That's got the easiest story of all! It's Russia." *smash cut to ad break* I don't know why the ad suddenly appearing made that more funny. But it did.

[@warwickknight3247]

dude flipping same XD I was losin my mind cause it gave my brain a second to really let it sink the heck in xD

[@valedaemon]

Jack missed the perfect argument: Yahtzee's own reviews of various walking simulators and Gris. Great show as always!

[@paulhannah6330]

@@IronianKnight Then what's the explanation for the success of Tetris whose story is definitely lacking? The question to ask is can good gameplay save a game with bad or no story, or can a good story save a game with bad gameplay? I lean towards the former. I have enjoyed many games with bad or little to no story because the gameplay is fantastic. I can't think of any games with terrible gameplay that I kept trudging through because of the story.

[@johnpoe2807]

@@paulhannah6330 I would say that Uncharted and The Last Of Us both have passable gameplay but kept me hooked because of the story. Even some older games like the original fallout and final fantasy games have very repetitive gameplay but are continually lauded for their stories. Truly though the best ones are the games that mix great stories and gameplay.

[@mrshmuga9]

John Poe I second that statement on the Uncharted series. Which further demonstrates that gameplay matters more, because I didn’t finish of 3 because I wasn’t interested in the story any more.

[@paulhannah6330]

@@johnpoe2807 Passable isn't bad, though. I am talking about gameplay that causes frustration and makes you want to rage quit, but instead you go "Damn, the story is just SO good, that I have to keep playing." Would a great story have helped E.T. on the Atari, Superman for the N64, Ride to Hell: Retribution, or any of the 3D Sonics?

[@john-smith-hifugo155]

@@paulhannah6330 I welcome you to the world of visual novel ;^)

[@datgamerdude6992]

I kinda thought Yahtzee shot himself in the foot with his statement "a journey from beginning to the point where you don't want to play anymore." The Story might be the road, but the Gameplay is how you travel it. And if the gameplay is more trouble then the allure of the story and its ending, then you're not going to finish the story.

[@Freakenfishzilla]

And how you travel the road is a part of the story of the journey on said road. To play devil's advocate, the counter to your argument is this: bricks are more important than cement when building a house - you can't build the house with just cement, but you can with just bricks. The purpose of the cement is to bind the bricks together to add longevity to the building, just how gameplay binds the narrative to add longevity to the story. But the truth is that both story and gameplay are equally important/unimportant depending on the context of the game. Something that will get people emotionally invested (eg. Last of Us) relies more heavily on story, whereas FPS or battle royale games for example rely more heavily on gameplay. It's all about balancing according to the specific purpose of the game. And that is how this week's Slightly Civil War was won by a third party 😁

[@HotCoals]

Yahtzee seemed to do that a lot this episode. One example that came to mind was when Yahtzee was trying his "context" argument. After implying the developers of PUBG were telling a story because they decided to use brick and not cement, he moved to tetris and said "they chose those colours for a reason." Yes, Yahtzee, those colours were chosen with a GAMEPLAY focus in mind, to make the different shapes more distinguishable from each other, a requirement for a semi-fast paced game like tetris.

[@Ellie_deMayo]

Brewjectionist I’d argue that what you are describing is more context than story. As such, context is more of a cement and story is more like paint. Because: 1) It’s the first thing you notice. b) it’s aesthetically pleasing a third thing) it’s put there to shield it from the environment or criticism..... and ya’know what, I think I might’ve lost the metaphor. But going back. If you think about it, aren’t games interactive? If so, doesn’t that mean traditional storytelling falls apart because of it? Since most of how a story could be told is in the hands of the player? Is that not why, when the developers want to tell the story they made, control is always taken away from the player? To be considered a story, you must have a beginning, middle and end. Context could be none of those things because the goal is to provide a scenario. Most games manage solely on context. So much so that, in many instances gameplay, actually hinders the story. It’s better told if it was a movie. It’s like having this beautiful painting of a country side on a brick wall. But you have to squint a bit to truly appreciate it because the bricks, by it’s very nature, divides the painting into pieces. Watching a story is one thing, but a player should find or even tell the story.

[@mdd4296]

@@Freakenfishzilla People get emotionally invested in gameplay driven games as well. Just get on any of their forum and look at the millions of posts appealing to emotions. It's about how much you like something and engage with it not the actual content of the game.

[@jason2mate]

I might be the only one, but i have played games i don't enjoy the gameplay of, to see how the story ends. Hell i did that rather recently with FF 7 Remake, i hate the ARPG gameplay that it has, but i wanted to see how in the hell they were going to end a game at a point that isn't really a conclusion.

[@TheKiaJoon]

Me, a simpleton: “BR stands for battle royale” Yahtzee, an intellectual: 6:54 “Bizarre Ritualistic Game Show ”

[@ArifRWinandar]

That's just him alluding to one of his dev diary games

[@tutucox]

BR BR BR? HUAHAUHAUHAUHAUAHUAHUAHUHAHAHUAHUAUHAUUAUA

[@warpzone8421]

Oh my god. Yahtzee made a mistake! Mistakes are what we call jokes in 2020, right? And when a person actually makes a mistake, like say they step in a bucket and trip and fall down, we call that memes, even though there's nothing memetic about it, right?

[@elcheshireilustracion9396]

Man, the acrobatics Yahtzee did when debating the story on Tetris. What a display. Having said that. Gameplay CAN tell a story, but a story can not convey gameplay. Gameplay is more important. Both would be ideal, but I'd rather play a great gameplay with lackluster story, than the other way around (while neither is imposible to enjoy).

[@josephdanejackson]

Gameplay may be more important, but a poor story can ruin the gameplay, rather than a game with no story at all. Just look at The Last of Us 2. Moral of the story is.. have a good story, if you're going to put in a story.

[@chadschmaltz9790]

Would a text based adventure be an example of gameplay conveyed through story?

[@elcheshireilustracion9396]

@@chadschmaltz9790 that is even more of an example of story trough gameplay, as it's your choices that do it. Take Sunless Sea or Night in the Woods, the gameplay is just going places and reading things, but the element of interactivity is what sells it. From gameplay.

[@elcheshireilustracion9396]

@@josephdanejackson yeah, but even then; I see people giving it 0/10, and... Come on. LoU2 is not a 0/10. Alien Colonial Marines is worse than that, Fallout 76, is worse, and those are not 0/10, all because of the gameplay. (To be fair, LoU1 is also not a 10/10, but leave it to gamers to exaggerate their ratings).

[@benl2140]

@@elcheshireilustracion9396 Sunless Sea is an interesting case because both its story and gameplay are based around the same idea: exploring and learning about the world. On a narrative level, it's about uncovering the lore of the world, while on a mechanical level, it's about finding new locations, which gives exp (or fragments, as the game calls it), while also trying to find out where the best places to buy/sell certain items are, so you can figure out what the most profitable trade routes are.

[@kalehsaar]

wow, Jack's arguments are way stronger here for a change

[@ssrunner]

People keep saying this on these videos.. nobody should be surprised at this point.

[@P-diddykong]

Well to be fair, this topic shouldn't even be a debate. Yahzee fought an uphill battle with both of his legs cut off.

[@Sam-iu8nb]

@@P-diddykong Yeah. I feel like you can make a good argument that story is AS important as gameplay. Arguing that it's more important seems tougher.

[@SuperHansimann]

@@Sam-iu8nb I feel like Mass Effect Andromeda Vs Mass Effect 1 is a great example of good gameplay, bad story vs good story, bad gameplay. I like ME1 a lot more even though MEA has better gameplay.

[@54321blader]

@@SuperHansimann But at that point isn't it personal preference? I can counter what you've said quite easily by saying I prefer Doom 2016 to Doom Eternal because 2016 was constantly saying "who cares about story? just kill the things" whereas Eternal kept shoving FUCKING CUTSCENES IN MY FACE WHEN I DON'T CARE I JUST WANT TO KILL THE THINGS GOD DAMMIT.

[@TheAntiburglar]

Yahtzee's rapidly leaving punctuation behind these days. Also gotta agree with Jack. Gameplay is fundamental to the nature of video games

[@AlexiusRedwood]

@@macmcskullface1004 no gameplay is what makes video games not garbage stories that only illetrate people like

[@brooklyn560]

Well he’s been making it since I was in middle school /early high school, so it’s understandable if he wants to do other things

[@V-Jes]

To put it best a game with good gameplay but with a bad story is still a good game while a game with bad gameplay and really good story is still a bad game.

[@V-Jes]

@@chickennugget481 You don't say.

[@toprak3479]

@@V-Jes Both of those can be good games depending on how good the good one is. Does Telltale's The Walking Dead have incredible gameplay? No. Is it great? Yes. Does Mario have a good story? Fuck no. Is it great? Apparently, yes, because people love that franchise.

[@skyler6175]

Yahzee's issue is he is trying to argued that story is important, not MORE important like what the debate is about. I feel like he lost this one to Jack.

[@FabianofNazareth1968]

I differ, the story is more important because of the fact that it supersedes gameplay thus making it more important at a fundamental level. Factorio is fun, but working out a logistics problem on paper with no context is not. Story is a human thing, we do it in everything. It's how we perceive things and justifies our actions, which is gameplay.

[@jhonbidon]

@@FabianofNazareth1968 factorio is fun because it is a puzzle...If someone were to change the laws of physics and universe itself to make the logistic problem easy to comprehend and with somekind of reword system or quantifible result showing in real time The logistic problem would be fun too

[@GeeDoggy123]

@@FabianofNazareth1968 I would argue that if you subtract story from factorio you would not arrive at "working out logistics problem on paper"

[@FabianofNazareth1968]

@@jhonbidon a puzzle is fun because you see the end result which tells a story you're putting together a story, even if it is just a mathematical one

[@jhonbidon]

@@FabianofNazareth1968 a puzzle is fun because solving a problem makes your brain release dopamine.... Also in games the puzzle is fun not the "story that the puzzle tells" That's why there is absolutely no good video game movies that follow the videogame They are only fun when they are given so much freedom that the end product have barely anything in common with the game (ex: sonic and detective pickachu)

[@firockfinion3326]

"Well you're _weird._ " Ah yes, the most devastating argument that there is no comeback for.

[@chrisjones5949]

In this case, it was accurate. Movies can provide some spectacular sights, but if you ask people to tell you about their favorites, most of them will describe the plot or explain why it's funny/scary/moving, not talk about how it looked.

[@dohickey7184]

No it's "nope, you are nitpicking and biased, bye bye, I win"

[@Arthurzeiro]

Wait, Yahtzee has said multiple times he likes Euro Truck Simulator 2, the quintessential all gameplay no story game out there.

[@prcervi]

he zones out to that one, catching up on podcasts

[@90kalos1]

Yahtzee defeated his own point in referencing Dark Souls. The selling point if that game isnt the story but the challenging gameplay. The story is a background you can engage with if you choose to

[@amazingdrewH]

Dark Souls isn't a game though, it's a monotony simulator

[@Rare987]

The lore and story of the game is actually a selling point for me and the reason why I bought it

[@aestheticmirror9257]

You find the story through gameplay, why is this key here when the door is across the world, how did this character get here he doesn’t fit in. You lean through exploration

[@Sam-iu8nb]

I think the story is more important than you're giving it credit for. I feel like you're perhaps classifying story as following npc quest lines and piecing together timelines from item descriptions. Like Yahtzee said, context is story in itself. The decaying world design, the ascent into light to reach the gargoyle bell, the descent into damp and disease to reach Queelags bell. I'd say these are all story elements that you can't avoid experiencing while playing.

[@fernweh8709]

Huh, this is the first time Yahtzee hasn't lulled me into agreeing with him

[@ArchusKanzaki]

Considering how much Yahtzee roasted David Cage games, its kinda difficult to defend

[@jhonbidon]

@Morph Ball you realise that the video game crush mostly happened in US and is havely overplayed and most games you just listed have barely any story and the most impactful games are mustly with little to no story (because no Save the princess or avange your pet bunny is not a story)

[@SuperHansimann]

@Morph Ball I wonder how much of that is nostalgia?

[@jhonbidon]

@Morph Ball video game xrush happened in US clerly means nintendo is only popular in US.... And yes people play dk/mario/zelda because let me check they want to see if peach/zelda/the bananas is saved this time

[@ryansch682]

Jack’s probably right. Yahtzee seems to be grasping at straws to disprove Jack’s 4/5 argument, and making up his own story for those games. Pong was a smash hit, and it’s just low-poly tennis.

[@matheusvillela9150]

To be fair, there is still context in Pong. Pong is the videogame equivalent of "Train coming in the station". Does that short movie imply that movies don't need a story? Of course not. That movie has a story. It is...a train coming in the station.

[@BombaJead]

@@matheusvillela9150 Pong has no story. Neither does Minecraft or Rocket League, Pacman, super Mario maker, and countless other games.

[@CorgiusLord]

Pong: You're playing tennis with a friend, or a Rival, or a malicious (or friendly) AI. The context is in the match itself, but the story is you're playing tennis. Minecraft: You wake up in a world completely unlike your own, dazed and confused with nothing but the clothes on your back and possibly vague knowledge of what this place is and how to survive on it. You then embark on a quest of your own, traveling the lands and exploring a whole world of wonder and danger, before you finally end up at a dark void where you fight a dragon and the story 'ends' as two gods muse over your existence and that you have learned much yet not enough, before letting you back into the world to explore and survive as you see fit, either to start anew in a new world from the very beginning or to shape this world you've survived in as you see fit. Rocket League: You are the driver of a high-performance RC car in the latest sensation in sports, ROCKET LEAGUE, a combination of Rally Driving, Demolition Derby, and Soccer, using powerful rocket thrusters and gravity dampening effects. Your story may very depending on who you're playing with, if you're playing ranked or for fun, or you just decided to play Rocket Hockey or Rock-Basketball instead. Pacman: You are Pacman, you eat dots and fruit, and are very hungry. You're being chased by ghosts who want to kill you. If you eat a special dot, you gain superpowers and can stop the ghosts from killing you. Super Mario Maker: You're a level designer for Nintendo and Super Mario Games. Good luck! Context is everything my guy. And hell, SuperMarioMaker comes with a pre-built story! Say it with me folks- "Help Mario, Bowser has kidnapped Princess Peach!" And voila, story done. Yahtzee's really bad at arguing it but CONTEXT is the most important part of a game. And sometimes that Context isn't explicitly written out. Would the classic Mario games be the icons that they are without the context of what the mushroom kingdom is, who your opponents are, and that there's a princess in need of saving? Is a Sonic Game any lesser for having a story as simple as 'Eggman's being a dick, go stop him and get the Chaos Emeralds back'? Ok, that last one is low hanging fruit, considering how shit Sonic games and Sonic game stories have been...

[@BombaJead]

@@CorgiusLord You are confused I think, contex or plot are not a story, they're elements of a story but not the story itself. Now you can describe the act of someone playing a game as a story in itself (keyword "can") but that won't necessarily equate to the game the person is playing having a story.

[@matheusvillela9150]

@@BombaJead I think you're mistaking story for plot. These games don't have plots, but they have stories. Some games have a predetermined story, others let players build their own, but there's always a story, in a broad sense.

[@rcurl44]

I have 2 words that single handedly prove that gameplay is more important than story: David Cage

[@dustybunny6716]

Call me a heretic but I don't enjoy the Hideo Kojima games because of their story. Snake Eater I played alot of because I enjoyed tranqing soldiers and humping items out of them. I want whatever fugu Kojima is snorting when he makes those cutscenes.

[@britmachine722]

@@drunkenhobo8020 Dahvid Cayyyyge

[@amazingdrewH]

Okay but his games also don't have story

[@rcurl44]

@@amazingdrewH I'm sorry, what??

[@Mernom]

@@dustybunny6716 You know, the thing you described is gameplay, not story.

[@mettle753]

I think this argument is solved pretty quickly with the fact that a game with no story can and does exist whereas a game with no gameplay cannot exist and is literally just a movie

[@BleachFan2588]

You make David Cage sad. Good.

[@xanderh2404]

Beat Saber is an excellent example of a game with gameplay but no story. The campaign mode in that is literally just a series of challenges, with no context for them at all, yet the game is still one of the top selling VR titles on Steam

[@Eric-sy1xu]

@@xanderh2404 Remember how whenever you tell stories of Beat Saber, you almost never say "Hit Brick With VR Stick", you actually tell about which song or beatmap you've been dealing with for Hours, right at that chorus part where the tempo and key swaps? People like Beat Saber because the sense of personal progression, the Personal story through their game, is compelling. Without a want to progress, there is no Challenge there is just a thing you can do and fail at or a thing you can do and succeed at. And that sense of Success as opposed to Defeat is strong enough of a narrative to make people try again, so that their personal story for that map is satisfactory.

[@Boss-_]

@@Eric-sy1xu even if one does tell stories of Beat Saber like that: that's not Beat Saber having a story, that's the person telling a story that involved Beat Saber. By that logic, a book of nothing but blank pages tells a story, because everybody can describe how they picked it up, opened it, saw blank pages, then put it down, and that's technically a story. And even if I were to concede that means "Beat Saber has a story" (which I dont) , that would still make gameplay more important, because that story couldnt exist without the prerequisite of gameplay.

[@Eric-sy1xu]

@@Boss-_ The game is the medium by which you tell your own story. Gameplay facilitates a specific kind of experience in that regard, but in terms of what the game achieves, you necessarily create a story around it as well at the same time. If the game bugs out, if the game does something unexpected, if the game kidnaps your family and sets fire to your house, it's all a story. An empty book can very well tell a story, you havent argued against that point. The story in non-narratuve games is a player-formed construction of that gameplay experience, and will exist and be formed whether the gameplay is Fun or Not. See: Spec Ops The Line.

[@HUNbullseye]

This made me question myself. I play games for the stroy, but i happily play trough a lesser strory with great gameplay, while if the gameplay is bad, grindy, too hard, whatever, then i just quit and watch the story on YT. Who am i? What am i fighting for?!

[@novadselir1068]

This existential crisis is hilarious

[@Idle_Equation]

Why are we still here?

[@H.P.Clodcraft]

Sounds like you're agreeing with Jack on this one. Story is important but not as important as gameplay.

[@raconbacon5649]

Heres the thing. Gameplay is more important, this is because it is a GAME. You may play games for the story but if the gameplays bad then the game itself is not enjoyable. However if the story is bad and the gamplay is good then you want to keep playing that game. Come for the story, stay fir the gameplay if you will. Personallt i couldnt give a crap about the story as long as the gameplay is fun. I enjoy a good story but i wont play a game for the story

[@SuperHansimann]

What's more important depends on the game. In a fighting game gameplay is more important and in rpgs or adventure games story is. Witcher 3 is one of the best games ever made, but falls behind a lot of games in terms of gameplay. There are also games where story is created by the mechanics of the game. Rimworld, Kenshi, Dwarf Fortress and The Sims are unscripted. They might have some backstory, but the story is created by the games mechanincs. If you ever want to read short fun stories just google one of these games and read the reviews.

[@nightcatarts]

Humans will make a story from white blocks moving around on a white background if the gameplay is compelling enough to make them want to spend time with it. If anything, I would argue that the story intentionally put there by game designers is less important than the story invented up by players for themselves, neither of which could exist without gameplay because if the gameplay wasn't there then there would be no game to play and no players to either experience a story written for them or make up a story of their own. Can't have game without gameplay. Can have game without story. Story can come later, because of gameplay.

[@Mernom]

One of the games I spent the most time with is UT2k4, and not for the tournament ladder mode.

[@Freakenfishzilla]

But on the flip side, you could argue that a 'choose your own adventure' movie (eg. Bandersnatch) is as much a game as it is a movie since it requires the audience's interaction. That wouldn't be possible without a story. Furthermore, games such as Until Dawn & Heavy Rain are extremely popular, and they're essentially the same concept just with a few extra button pushes. The gameplay in both is trash, but they're popular because people are interested in the stories they tell. Overall neither is more important than the other, but on a game by game basis it can swing either way depending on the context of the game. So the most important factor is the correct balance between the 2.

[@nightcatarts]

@@Mernom Onslaught mode was so much fun in that. Took my most played mode away from UT99's CTF.

[@nightcatarts]

@@Freakenfishzilla Certainly, but those still require gameplay (of some sort) in order to be recognised as games. There is no such requirement on story in order for a game to be a game. A good balance is obviously the best result, but only one of the two can be missing entirely.

[@nightcatarts]

@@misterbooga6466 I didn't specify it had to be good, just important to the player. Also, that's using the concept of a story in the very vague Yahtzee-argument manner where a player's experiences in the game become the story, rather than something as involved as D&D where you consciously make shit up.

[@cooldudeachyut]

Story is important, but gameplay takes precedence, at least for me I guess.

[@aestheticmirror9257]

Yeah I never played mass effect 1 cause the gameplay was shit and I tolerate the second cause the character where well written

[@deadlocked5337]

- Both? + Both > "Both is Good"

[@aestheticmirror9257]

I mean good gameplay can carry a game but good story can’t, the story needs to be on another level to carry a game on its own

[@kevadu]

@@aestheticmirror9257 Visual novels exist

[@sdmitch16]

@@kevadu I bet all of them combined are less popular than Minecraft.

[@davadreviewer5509]

sdmitch16 Does popularity matter?

[@Vitrous]

Before watching this and knowing anything about the arguments put fourth, I'll say that gameplay is more important because I've mostly found that good gameplay can excuse a bad story more than a good story can excuse bad gameplay.

[@rodrigotolosa590]

Yahtzee kept arguing that all videogames have stories, which wasn't the topic.

[@Boss-_]

And even then it involved shifting the goal post, by redefining what story is

[@Eric-sy1xu]

It absolutely was the topic. You can strawman the guy all you want, the whole point of the discussion is how creating a personal story of progression is oftentimes the compelling factor to games without a clear-cut story itself. I love minesweeper, but trawling through the game and getting better at it, that's the fun part. "How am i gonna solve this, what is the best route to take which maximizes chance at victory", it's the same with Tetris. If we didn't want to get better and succeed more, then we might as well all die at the start and think little of it, have no investment in the games we play, and have no reason to do anything. Trying to say "well that's not story, that's gameplay" minimises why people play games, sure it's to have fun but you do that through creating a satisfying narrative for yourself. There's no magic metric which says that a meaty swing of a sword is Good and a fast & floaty swing of a sword is Bad. In absence of something "Objective" to measure gameplay with, then, all that's left is the Subject, and the Subject's relationship and interaction with the gameplay is another way to tell that subject's story through the medium

[@Tabryne]

@@Eric-sy1xu I'm curious could you give me an example of each of these please: 1. A story without gameplay. 2. Gameplay without a story.

[@Starcrash6984]

But it was relevant. Jack's argument was "the bestselling games lack a story", so the obvious rebuttal to that argument was to try to demonstrate that they did.

[@Gonzakoable]

@@Tabryne for n2 check out a game called super hexagon

[@LabrnMystic]

Jack, you forgot to use jrpgs against! If story was more important, how come he can barely finish any final fantasy game? :P

[@aestheticmirror9257]

Because he doesn’t like the story they’re to weird for him or something

[@shadowrundas]

as some one who used to love JRPGS, most JRPGS have terrible writing idk if its becasue theyre easier to make poorly translated or just recycle the same tropes or what but well written narrative in JRPGS is pretty rare these days :(

[@Azerkeux]

@@shadowrundas FF6 was one of the most profound stories to me in video games, but mostly within the context of Celes' story, when the world unzips and you're on that Island with Cid.. yeah that game tugged at my heart strings

[@LabrnMystic]

@@shadowrundas I feel you. It seems like it is recycled tropes rather than new interesting stories

[@LabrnMystic]

@@murpaderp8461 it is also for entertainment.

[@EllieBerryPie]

"Story in a game is like story in a porn movie, it's expexted to be there but it's not that important. " John Carmack, creator of Doom, my favorite game

[@Boss-_]

Lot of shifting the goal post from Yahtzee here. When presented with a game without a story, he just redefines story to fit the description of "context" or "premise"

[@sweetsleeperagent]

Agreed. When presented with Minecraft, he claims that the story comes from the player, which means that it can be whatever the player wants.... What if the player wants... no story? What if the player refuses to even consider a story and just builds what is on their mind. And his counter to tetris is just bs. Tetris has no story and it certainly isn't Russia.

[@animorph17]

@@sweetsleeperagent Isn't a game with no story, just like ... not playing the game?

[@nunjabeeswaxs4686]

Nots and crosses, chess and checkers are games (yes they are not video games ) that have no story, context or premise but are simply pieces on a board. These games have lasted centuries and circumnavigate the world, the only feature they have us gameplay.

[@Entaris]

Agreed. It really felt like he was saying "A good game is a good game because it has good game stuff in it, and ALL of that is story. Even the gameplay is story, except in the case of your argument in which gameplay is completely unimportant."

[@animorph17]

@@nunjabeeswaxs4686 Chess and Checkers are outright war simulations, ever wonder where the knights and queens came from? They just really suck as war simulations. Nots and crosses though? You mean Tic-tac-toe? You mean the ancient egyptian religious thing? YEEeaaaaahhh sure buddy. That's just lining down markings, has nothing to do with it's 6000+ year history. .... apparently the roman version involved using pebbles, so that's neat.

[@TheOriginalKZero]

Yahtzee: anything happens “HUUUUH! STORY!!!!” Nah man. That’s far too loose. A base gameplay element doesn’t qualify as a story. By this logic playing catch in real life is a story.

[@warpzone8421]

I mean... I suppose it can be, if you first establish that the people playing it are an estranged father and son, and you spend a lot of time building up how much they hate each other... maybe throw in a ticking clock and some sort of personal sacrifice... somebody get Dan Harmon on the horn. I got a great idea for a new show!

[@faragar1791]

I agree. I feel like Yahtzee isn't using the word "story" in a way most others would use it and understand it. Ture, you can apply your own story to a game, but there isn't any sort of inherent story in every game.

[@Jo-ew7lw]

yahtzee sounds like a literature teacher reading way too much into poetry

[@xXRickTrolledXx]

@Jo sounds like someone didn’t like literacy class

[@birdfish86]

Like picking the controller up pressing start and then putting it down enjoying a 2 hour narrative. So like playing Death Stranding! Roflol XD

[@brandonscruton8865]

Yatzee, you missed the most important turn. When faced with the arguement of stripping video games of their uniqueness, of their artistry, the true argument is that video games are a vastly different story telling medium. That gameplay allows the character to exist within a given world and experience the story no other medium can offer

[@codesimpson6010]

"Is Story More Important Than Gameplay?" Story is most often a consequence of game play rather than the goal. You don't play poker, pong, Pacman, or pool to craft a story. You play to win, as winning is the drive of these games.

[@Xfushion2]

Gameplay, if there's not any kind of game mechanic in your game it would not even exists in the first place. In game development the first thing you have to figure out is the main gameplay loop and when that happens you're usually toying around with place holder assets made up of vary basic geometry. With no/ very little visual assets to provide a _contextual_ support (like atmosphere). But that's the thing the gameplay has to work with crap assets because that way you prove that the gameplay can stand on it's own legs and it's *fun* .After that you can bring in the context in which just make the game more fun and engaging. If you do it the other way around you just shoot yourself in the foot: Cool you have your story set and a bunch of very well made aesthetic assets and you don't even know if the gameplay is even gonna work, let alone be fun. Story in a game can matter a lot, but still dependent on the game play. Like when Yahtzee mentioned Dark Souls putting story as it's priority is actually the other way around. Dark Souls does not have an explicit story because it expects the player to make up their own. But isn't making your own story *a game of it's own* specially in Dark Souls in which you have to _play archaeologist_ by exploring places and figuring out the lore to construct you're own story? even then that's gameplay talking first.

[@amaryllis0]

A point: story being more important than gameplay doesn't necessarily mean that you can't have a good game that is only gameplay with no story, like Tetris, if you consider an interpretation that adding story to a game increases its quality more than some equivalent amount of gameplay. Like, imagine story and gameplay are two types of cans of different weights. You can make a heavy stack of cans out of just the lighter gameplay cans, but the story cans are still heavier Also, gameplay can still be important while story is just _more_ so. The audiovisual experience of film is important, but the core importance of film is likewise story. And sometimes you might have a film that's good purely as spectacle, to turn your brain off to and look at the pretty colors and action scenes, but those films would be even better with a stronger story. And those films still always have _some_ story. Nobody enjoys a film that's just contextless fight scenes Edit: oh wow, penned that before Jack brought up the exact same analogy

[@Aquele_Neon]

games aren't films

[@amaryllis0]

@@Aquele_Neon Brilliant insight, thank you

[@Bugattiboy912]

Two words and a number: Super Mario 64. That's twice in a row that Yahtzee has been on the wrong side of it.

[@mystbunnygaming1449]

Would you enjoy another version of Mario 64 where the gameplay is identical but instead of Mario, you played as Dora the explorer?

[@goff256]

MystBunnyGaming I don’t know about them, but I would.

[@CiaphasKirby]

Pac-man, Galaga, Breakout, racing games, Mario Party... not even close

[@DarknessAmongUs]

"When a story-driven game gets a sequel, there will always be people who disagree with its direction. When a gameplay-driven game gets a sequel, it is guaranteed to hold up if it has the same combat we come for" saw it on reddit

[@comradesam3382]

Call of duty AW and IW, TLOU 2 (frankly not sure about that one I dont really give a shit about TLOU), Borderlands pre sequel, Shantee(or whatever the fuck was that bikini game),never underestimate the ability of developers to fuck up in gameplay, the call of duty (classic) honestly became just boring after BO2

[@justcake5841]

There can be a game with sole gameplay, but without story. But there can't be a game without any gameplay whatsoever and with a story. The second thing is called a film. So, the gameplay is a must-have, therefore making it more important.

[@madocofcatarina7190]

This is very topical with this whole The Last Of Us 2 situation...

[@kett912]

Not really imo cause I think most of the players agree the gameplay is mostly the same as TLOU1 and the story is just much worse.

[@naithungoal609]

@@kett912 I think that's what OP is talking about.

[@jodhod1498]

I wouldn't say so. That issue was probably with TLOU1, whereas TLOU2's issue is with a divided playerbase opinions on elements of the story. As far as I've heard, gameplay has relatively improved but generally not being discussed at all.

[@davidinass]

Its a love it or hate it game. I enjoyed it for the most part. The abby playthrough hurt me a little. Abby is best described as a person in the wrong game. She's a awesome character if you look at it but she's in the wrong game. If it was a spinoff with Abby saving the kids then that would work just fine

[@jodhod1498]

@@naithungoal609 The issue is "Gameplay vs story". That is not what the conversation about TLOU2 is about.

[@duploman1000]

Story and Gameplay are just a piece of the bigger pie. a creative vision, an artistic project. They meld in synergy. Like a film is a marriage of cinematography and story, where the viewer is the observer, what makes a game a game is that it is a marriage of story and gameplay. It is a story in which the viewer is a participant.

[@yeahthatsme4863]

I'm pretty sure that argument boils down to a simple "what can you strip" question. Can you stip story from a game? It would be a bland game, but sure. Can you strip gameplay? No, cause then it becomes not a game. A book, a movie, a theatrical performance, but not a game. Just as simple as that.

[@jamesallen1816]

I really love this series! In my opinion the best games are the ones that don't really treat gameplay and story as seperate entities. Gameplay and story should inform each other and contribute equally in achieving the overarching goal.

[@jax3636]

There have been so many games I've played with fantastic writing and wonderful stories, but the gameplay was so lackluster or unsatisfactory that it made the game tedious to play, and made me give up on the game before I finished the story. Great gameplay can make up for a poor story, but a great story can't make up for bad gameplay, because while you can choose to ignore a lot of a story while playing a game, you simply can't ignore bad gameplay; it's what you're doing the whole time you're playing the damn thing

[@endorb]

Yahtzee: "It would be a load of white boxes moving around a big white field" Games like Box Wars: "Waait a second"

[@jonlangthorne7924]

I am on Yahtzee’s side on this one even though Jack’s arguments I thought were better this time. Personally when I’m playing a game I can forgive badly designed gameplay if the story is good. I forgive the janky combat of Assassin’s Creed because I’m invested in the Assassin’s struggles and the learning more about the Isu. But I don’t care how good the gameplay of Fortnite or PUBG is, if I’m not engaged or motivated to progress with a good plot line, I won’t play the game. Therefore for me, story is more important every time.

[@addex1236]

Then it seems to me you should watch a movie. Like frankly it seems that your time would be better off watching the plot of assassins creed on KZbin it would take less time and if you don't care about the aspect that makes videogames different than films than why not just watch the cutscenes on KZbin or again just watch a movie

[@oomsou5018]

I too can forgive mediocre to subpar gameplay if the story is good. Hell one of my favorite games had ehhh gameplay but a hell of a good story and characters but I can only tolerate so much bad gameplay before I just go and watch the story on KZbin or something. Everyone has a limit. Even with the fact one of my favorite games has mediocre gameplay but a great story I still think Gameplay is more important than story.

[@sneakyskunk1]

Jack's constant chuckling throughout the show is what brings me back time and again. It is infectious and never fails to cheer me up.

[@kimpalonen1978]

Given a story we have movies and books. Games are games because there's a play to it.

[@LordShrub]

AAA companies: Graphics are the most important. Me: Fun is the most important.

[@TheFrugalVideoGamer]

It depends on the game - some games get by just on the core gameplay loop with a story thrown on as window dressing, but others would lose all effect without the story. Monster Hunter is in the former camp, Spec Ops: The Line is in the latter camp. Both have elements of the opposing camp, yes, but it's not as important as the primary aspect.

[@raptyrn1290]

Doom Eternal: How bout both, fellas? I definitely play Pac Man for the narrative, obviously. It's about a greedy man who is ambushed by the ghosts of his past. Like, a christmas carol.

[@BlankPicketSign]

In a *GOOD* game, The Story will define which mechanics to include in a game. Metal Gear is a wonderful example, each game adding and redefining Mechanics to service the Story being told! Stealth and Shooting in 1 and 2, CQC and Survival Mechanics in 3, Survival being retooled to represent mental health in 4. ALL of these choices are ALL in the service of the STORY.

[@joaquinandreu8530]

Both story and gameplay are the columns that support a masterpiece for the ages to admire.

[@whywasimadetofeelnothingbu1991]

Joaquin Andreu exactly. Can't have a good *game* without both

[@elcrow113]

@@whywasimadetofeelnothingbu1991 really soo the old doom games aren't good because they have no story

[@buddyboris23]

@@elcrow113 I would say that Doom 2016 is better because of it. You can read a story into the old Doom games even if one isn't explicitly told, but having a proper balance of both story and gameplay improves the overall game.

[@elcrow113]

@@buddyboris23 sure, but to say you can't have a good game without both is absurd, which is why I commented in the first place. I personally think you could have a good game without a good story, i don't think you can have a good game without good gameplay.

[@choochoo791]

To me it depends on what you're playing. A game like Escape from Tarkov is all gameplay based (i.e. hit boxes, mechanics, etc.), but for a game like TLOU 2 you need a huge kick of story and the gameplay can be slightly lackluster.

[@buddyboris23]

Story vs gameplay is very much up to the player. I have finished games where the parts of the gameplay were not enjoyable to me, because I wanted to know the world and the story, and games that I ignored the story pauses because I liked the gameplay loop itself so much. And for those games where both were pulling their weight, it was amazing. Story and gameplay loop can and should reinforce each other.

[@2CPhoenix]

I believe that there’s certainly an argument to be made for both, but I believe that a gameplay-centric game with little emphasis on story will outdo a story-centric game with little emphasis on gameplay every time. People can play Minecraft and Super Mario Bros for decades, but name one person (other than a speed runner) who has played Red Dead Redemption 2 more than twice

[@E1craZ4life]

Would you consider the Portal games as story-centric or gameplay-centric?

[@AlexiusRedwood]

@@E1craZ4life they are game centric because you get that "euphoria" after finishing the puzzle

[@E1craZ4life]

Alessio Yeah, a majority of the community made levels revolve around gameplay rather than story.

[@Germancouch]

Yahtzee: “Well, you’re weird.” Case closed. Yahtzee wins.

[@matheusvillela9150]

I'd argue that in games focused on multiplayer, players create their own story through competition or cooperation, and that's what makes them unique. We're in a very interesting stage of game development right now, in which people are increasingly aware of videogame's unique storytelling skills, instead of just trying to copy other medias. Movies have gone through this, and now it's the time for games. Hope to see more and more videogame criticism being taken seriously just like any other art criticism, and not just as consumer guide like "the graphics are 8/10 because framerates issues or whatever".

[@jimmalybob4829]

7:21 “Fookin Prawns” is a reference to the film “District 9”

[@thedarknessmagician5234]

Yahtzee: “the story of Minecraft is tied to the actions of the player” Me: “so your saying that the GAMEPLAY of Minecraft naturally leads to the player creating their own narrative for their game and essentially means that the story of the highest selling video game in the world is entirely dependent on gameplay?”

[@productivediscord5624]

Lets talk about bad games. When stories fail, most people continue playing if the gameplay is engaging. When gameplay fails, more people leave even if they have interest in the story.

[@avoncornish7324]

I am surprised that most of David Cage's works are not included in this debate. Would have been fun to see that debate sprout.

[@Karak-_-]

For me it's the gameplay which is on first place, "game" is series or choices where some choices lead to desirable outcome and some to undesirable, that's it that's what all games can be condensed into. But it's the story that can provide a meaningfull desirable/undesirable outcomes.

[@FieryWalrus]

In AngryJoe's review of Guild Wars 2, he said something that really stuck out to me when it comes to games in general. "It's not about the story, it's not about the graphics or cinematics. It's about the gameplay, for its what you're going to be doing for hours and hours on end. If the gameplay is stale and boring, you're not going to want to keep playing". Which is precisely why after putting nearly 50 hours into Fallout New Vegas, I still can't get into it. The gunplay is terrible and the lack of sprinting makes the game feel like such a chore to play. Normally in games progression is blocked by a barrier that you are forced to overcome in order to continue. But in the case of FNV, the gameplay is the barrier and instead of trying to overcome it, I just play a different game.

[@alldayagain]

It'd be cool to see one of these live at a convention

[@MarkERoth]

For modern games, gameplay and storytelling must walk a tightrope together but that only pertains to certain games. Most shovelware is just a distraction which is why the story is buried in hidden collectible cassettes, journal entries, or flash drives. When the genre first emerged in the form of arcade cabinets no one really needed a fully realized story for pong, tempest, or even pacman and donkey kong when they came around. Now its just fun trivia to know the backstory to a game.

[@amandacathedral9474]

The term "gameplay" has always bugged me for not being descriptive enough, because all aspects of a game's design contribute to what makes "gameplay". The movement mechanics, the speed at which they play out, the visual design of how actions look, the audio design from sound effects to background score, the rules of how the game plays, pretty much all things that are put into a video game are what culminate into the fun that we describe as "gameplay". Story is an important component of "gameplay" because a game with a more robust story will always have the potential to elevate a sequence to be more fun. When you're attached to a certain character, that means a sequence where they're in peril will be more exciting to play because you're invested in the moment. While the core mechanics may not be any different from any other section in the game, the story has now made the game more exciting, which makes the "gameplay" exciting. Story is not more important than "gameplay", because story IS "gameplay". The whole problem with this argument is that neither side actually understands what they're arguing over, because they are ultimately the same thing.

[@Netbug009]

I'm always in an uphill battle arguing that story is a critical component of video games and I might just link my friends to this. Yatzee gets me here.

[@markguyton2868]

In most cases, both game-play and story work in tandem to build entertainment for the player. Sometimes the game-play is lead where the story is just meant to teach the player new mechanics to mess with as they progress. Other times the game-play is light but the story is interesting enough to keep the player moving despite the minimal interactivity. ...and then there's "walking simulators"....

[@dylaneasterday6638]

8:46 Yahtz, the game boy (which was the version of Tetris that sold a squintillion copies) actually didn't have colors. It just had shapes and fun polka music, so HA! Score one for Jack

[@dylaneasterday6638]

Also I don't really consider BOTW and Dark Souls to be "heavily based around story". The story in both of those games are pretty ancillary, as opposed to something like Last of us, or any game Daivid Caige has ever made.

[@acesometis3328]

@@dylaneasterday6638 If anything, BotW and Dark Souls are heavily based around lore rather than story. Their story is simplistic "beat the bads then beat the big bad to save the world", but the lore is vast and intriguing.

[@alexwright3258]

If I just wanted a story I'd read a book or watch a movie. I play video games because of the way the gameplay lets me experience the story. Gameplay is as essential to video games as cinematography is to film and words are to books.

[@TrueAcmb]

short term/first try and play through : story Long term/multiple play throughs: Gameplay

[@54321blader]

Agreed. The story in The Witcher 3 is very good, potentially even more so on the side quests, but I don't replay it to experience the story again, I replay it because the gameplay has lots of facets that can't all be utilized in a single play through and every way I find to play is fun and satisfying.

[@trymbruset3868]

To be quite frank, the cinematography argument is a decent one. If I were to list a few of my favorite films, a lot of them would be there due to their fantastic set design and immersive music; the story at times being a partly derivative thing going on in the background. The arrival, Bladerunner 2049 to name just two such films. Looping back to games, I think both arguments are valid, with a continuum of design choices in between: games which rely primarily on gameplay can be fantastic, even if you completely ignore whatever story element is going on: Doom 2016 a particularly throbbing example of such a game. On the other end, a somewhat bland gameplay experience can still be carried by a compelling story; to a degree I suppose Monkey Island would represent just such a thing.

[@kenziebarrow]

My argument when the industry was young what was the thing games focused on, gameplay with minimal if no story. Tetris, donkey kong, Mario and more. As the industry grew and gameplay, the thing that hooks players, improved story was able to expand. Thus, without a good foundation with gameplay, games stories cant stand up alone. Its also why games really don't work as films, because the gameplay is stripped away among other things

[@TheSpiralCurse]

I'm not really sure here. I think gameplay opens the door but the story is usually what has staying power. For example everyone and their mother played Skyrim, yet the gameplay is rarely brought up in comparison to which god you liked better or Imperial vs Stormcloak or who you married or where you lived. I remember collecting Dragon Priest masks but not the spells and weapons I defeated them with. I remember Parthunax's wise words not his in game help distracting Alduin. I remember running into a talking dog who asked me to free his Daedric master but not so much the mission itself

[@handsomeaaron6175]

In regards to the post-debate conversation, where they discuss the merging of gameplay and story, and they're looking for games like Dark Souls that merge story and gameplay. What about games like Harvest Moon or Recettear (or Space Game) where the primary loop lies in living a life and doing a job and the secondary loop lies in the long term benefits of living a life and doing a job?

[@Jollyroger84103]

He made a District 9 reference! Edit: 7:23

[@LetsPlayRez]

I cant wait to listen to the podcast on this one. I'm team "Gameplay" (as much as I hate going against Yahtz on this one) - although I dont think ACTIVE story is needed for a game to be successful or entertaining, it obviously can be used to compliment and enhance gameplay. A point however could be made to walking simulators where the story is quite literally the only thing of import. Lots to consider.

[@E1craZ4life]

Visual novels rely entirely on story with little if any gameplay.

[@gokusondbz]

A Good Game For Story 'The Council' .

[@LetsPlayRez]

@@E1craZ4life That's true- but the arguement then turns into: Are visual novels really games? If they lack interactivity, then I would argue that they are not. If they are interactive, even just offering the player choice, then that "gameplay" is the entire reason the media is considered a game. Without the "gameplay" (giving the player agency in the world) then it's nothing more then an electronic comic book. Not knocking the value of the visual novel genre- just offering a counter point.

[@E1craZ4life]

Grim _ Some VNs have multiple paths, some VNs don’t. If the goal of the former class is to see every possible path, it’s possible to categorize the goal as a secondary gameplay loop.

[@LetsPlayRez]

@@E1craZ4life That I agree with, however in this case the gameplay (making choices, seeing every ending) is what makes the VN a game. Without the gameplay the media is no longer a game. I'm not saying that story isnt important, especially for the VN genre- Im saying that without the "Gameplay" (player agency, choice making) the VN ceases to be a game. Without the story, the game would still be a game (albeit a dreadfully boring one)- however without the gameplay the VN is no longer a game. The "game" classification is contingent on there being gameplay. The same contingency does not exist for a game without story.

[@KingofPropane]

Yahtzee laughed at Jack doing the "Duieee" nouse near the end like Jack just said "Booby Booby Bum Bum". That was hilarious.

[@bird3713]

I would say that gameplay is the foundation and is essential to creating an amazing gaming experience. You need to meet at least a minimum threshold to even be considered good. However, the layer of storytelling that’s thrown on top is what takes most games to greater heights- that’s where you get games like Bioshock, Half-life 2, or The Last of Us that take standard gameplay and elevate it with immersive storytelling. Maybe it would’ve been worth arguing which games are better - those that rely on storytelling (like the ones I mentioned) or those that rely almost entirely on gameplay (Minecraft, Tetris, and others). On another note, I would argue that BotW is a gameplay-driven game. The story is there, but you’re driven by character progression, not by an evolving plot line.

[@MrMegaManFan]

I love these debates so much now I regularly listen to the after show. Cheers!

[@Chlorate299]

I can tell this killed Yahtzee a little bit. It's ok Yahtz, just focus on the Primary Gameplay Loop for a bit and it'll be all better.

[@Qguardian]

If the question was more specific they would have had more to argue here. Which one is more important over all is silly because like Jack said, you literally can’t have a video game without gameplay. What ELEVATES a game to becoming memorable and beloved is story. The best games of all time have both amazing gameplay and story.

[@addex1236]

I'd say gameplay is more important due to the fact that what makes games different than books,films, and movies is the interactive nature of games. If the plot is fantastic and the gameplay is god awful than you should of just made a movie

[@TheCreepypro]

what a fine debate while I side with Jack on this completely Yahtzee's ability to full counter most of his points was honestly kind of scary and almost persuaded me to change my mind a couple of times

[@TheBabaloga]

This is like asking if acting or editing is more important in movies. Like, sure you could probably argue for one or the other but if either is bad it ruins the whole thing. It's not about the relative importance of these elements, it's about how they're used to enhance and complement each other for the good of the final product.

[@jackpollard550]

Much as I enjoy a good narrative, to say story is more important than gameplay is to sort of put the cart before the horse. It may be a very fine cart of important cargo, but in the context of video games, what is a horseless cart good for if it never gets going?

[@sweetsleeperagent]

Normally I find the arguments to be even, or that Yahtzee takes the lead through logic, but I believe Jack had this in the bag easily. Jack came out with some SOLID facts about the best selling games, which honestly could be extended to many different genres. Battle Royales have no story, but they're some of the most popular games right now. And (un)fortunately popularity kinda determines what is better in the long run. You could create the best story, but if nobody plays it, it can't be that great. And I would figure that Gameplay > Story in almost all popular games throughout gaming history. Doom? Gameplay. Halo? Gameplay. Super Mario? Gameplay. Etc... What surprised me the most was that Yahtzee seemed to be on the backfoot 90% of the video. It seemed that he spent a majority of his time TRYING to counter Jack's points, but they were mostly bullcrap. PUBG doesn't have a story in the bricks of the walls. Tetris doesn't have a story about the specific colored bricks falling. Wii Sports does not have a story. He's grasping at straws. I think Jack hit the nail on the head in the beginning. Because video games are, by definition, interactive games, you can't have a good game without good gameplay, ergo gameplay > story.

[@ZioSerpe]

The argument should be split, some games need story some don't. Multi-player / competitive games require no story, single player games do. Take any FIFA game, it's soccer, if you play with your friends you just pick a team and go, no story required, but in solo play you do create your own story with modes where you trade players and create your own story or even by playing a season you inevitably end up relying on certain players and making them the focus of your game play, extensively creating your own story

[@Superschlecht]

I just played through Dark Souls 3 the 5th time. The Story never changed, but the gameplay because I tried out different builds. I even installed the cinders mod which changed nothing about the story, but made a lot of gameplay changes. This is one of the reasons why in my opinion, a strong gameplay is healthier for a game than a strong story.

[@akamal92]

For once, I agree with Mr. Packard. If the gameplay is bad then playing the game becomes a slog.

[@joshualong7724]

For me as long as a game is fun to play I'm all in. Story and graphics are just nice additions.

[@chrisjones5949]

It's weird that Yahtzee left out an argument he's made himself in various ZP videos: without the story and context, nothing sticks with you. Games that have no story, or a very poor story, are popcorn. It's fun while it's there, but any given serving of it is going to be pretty much identical to any other one, and once it's gone you'll never think about it again. Meanwhile, games that have really impactful stories and a solid context for what happens (Spec Ops: The Line, Silent Hill 2, Half-Life 2, Undertale, Dark Souls) are gourmet cuisine. It's special, it's memorable, and long after you're done with it you'll still be comparing other meals to it. It's true that you really need both parts, though. Walking simulators have very little gameplay and most of those are boring as hell - and even the good ones might as well be movies. I really liked What Remains of Edith Finch, but I'd have watched a movie of it and been just as entertained, and Layers of Fear would probably have worked *better* as a horror movie. This was kind of a dumb topic to debate; it's like arguing which half of an airplane is more important.

[@MrWillgum]

I pretty much only watch ZP so I didn't know that the jack in this show is the same one from previously recorded.

[@onyx_gaming4136]

Ok, so surprisingly im on jacks side, if only because there are times when the gameplay can determine how well we perceive or enjoy the story element. And the only reason why this hits home for me, is because I've pulled out of a game for what I thought was bad gameplay and I only played it in the first place because people told me the story was good; and regardless of how good it was, the story can't recover if the gameplay is a nuisance. (I'm looking at you, L.A. Noire.)

[@danc6167]

This has got be one of the best episodes yet. I found Jack and Yahtzee were the most invested in their respective arguments. Had trouble coming up with who I agreed with more.

[@madmanslime3188]

The argument was already won in the first 2 minutes “videoGAME videoGAME”.

[@kolobok007]

I agree with Jack here. Gameplay is what separates games from other mediums like movies and books. And calling context a story in games like PUBG, Wii Sport, or Rocket League is a big stretch. I like a good story in a game and I think it's what elevates the game to higher level (eg Last of Us, Half Life). A good story can also mask mediocre gameplay (ie Witcher 3). However, at the end of the day, people play games to actually play a game and not for a story.

[@NicholsonStudios]

Jack wins! Gameplay is more important as a whole. A game with zero story (like those top sellers he mentioned) can be amazing, but a game with shut gameplay and amazing story is either not really a game or a terrible game.

[@adamanderson1979]

One of the first times I have seen genuine dueling semantics

[@battlestartoaster]

So, in the comparison of movies and cinematography, it depends on the movie. If you ask someone about Fiddler On The Roof, they will talk about the charming story. If you ask about Blade Runner 2049, they will talk about the breathtaking shots and CGI that goes hand in hand with the soundtrack and audio effects (story was ok)

[@beardlyinteresting]

As soon as Yahtzee countered about tetris' story a KZbin add played where some dude hit a baseball home run with the stadium lights bursting

[@lanisolfire5692]

Im team Yahtzee on this one, i think story is more important. that said really its based on why you personally play video games.

[@gwjones82009]

a rebuttal to the "story is more important than gameplay" crowd is Heavy Rain, or any David Cage Animated novel, i mean "Video game" story is important, but if the gameplay isn't good, people don't play it longer than needed for the story