Is Sumo Deadlift Cheating? - (TRUE Science-Based Response to Jeff)

Is sumo deadlift cheating? (my thoughts on Jeff Nippard's video)
Sumo deadlift is considered easier than the conventional deadlift. However, Jeff Nippard recently made a video where he attempted to explain through science that the sumo deadlift is not easier than the conventional. Jeff concluded that ''there is no sound evidence to support the idea that the conventional deadlift is harder than the sumo'''.
Although he claimed to support most of his arguments with science I think he missed some basic points on this topic and I made this video with the intention of adding to the subject.
This video is a science-based response to Jeff Nippard and a short presentation of some biomechanics rules on the sumo deadlift.
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
00:41 - Basic point (physics)
05:27 - My second point (geometry)
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[@Felipekimst]

Physics alone shouldn't be considered, you have to take into account biomechanics as well, lifting 100kg by 20cm conventional is easier than lifting 80kg by 20cm with one leg only, even though the amount of joules is smaller, we need to take into consideration the work done by the involved muscles. (Which is the tricky part) lifting

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Nothing really tricky here. We compare similar movements with both legs. The sumo uses more the quads which are bigger muscles. the strength of a muscle is determined mainly by its cross-sectional area. Thus the quads are the strongest muscles of the body. Sumo uses more quads and conventional more lower back. Physics and geometry are only some (not the only) parts of the equation I agree Nothing is a stand alone component. The same goes with weight. Weight (intensity) is one of the predominant training variables. However (with your way of thinking) if you compare lifting 80kg with squat is easier than 50kg bicep curls, thus weight is not so important too.

[@adamlucas4753]

Also, his argument is tautological if not a non-sequitur. Tautological in that, he says conventional gets you an extra 3 inches and the same weight for an extra 3 inches gets you more joules/kcal, but the only reason we're asking the question is because sumo is cheating and you would, presumably, be lifting more weight 3 fewer inches. In the 80s, Miller Lite (beer) used to run commercials where the two sides argued "tastes great' vs. 'less filling'... this is that argument. Whether 'more work' is 'more weight' vs. 'further distance'. This tautology is (not) cogent because the physics is a non-sequitur. The athlete's fitness or capability may depend on joules/kcal and physics, but the determination of a successful lift does not. Plates, bodyweight, and lockout are it, the height the weight lifted, assuming lockout, is irrelevant.

[@kevinuploadingwhatever]

People will call you a hater because you're right You cant prove wrong physics, but people will still try.

[@jonathanb9721]

He is misunderstanding physics, work done is not equivalent to peak power output which is what is required to lift more weight. Conventional requires more energy but doesn’t mean you can lift more weight in sumo.

[@kevinuploadingwhatever]

@@jonathanb9721 work is literally : force x distance no matter how you lift 10 Ibs, it's always gonna require the same amount of force because the force of gravity is constant

[@Dangledan15]

@@kevinuploadingwhateverI know I’m a year late, but this isn’t exactly true. Sumo typically requires more force to get the weight off the floor due to the angle force is being applied, so you would have to take into consideration both the force in the x and y direction and then get the magnitude for total force output

[@actual_random]

The work equation simply doesn't "work" in this circumstance because your leverages are different. So even though less work is done against gravitational forces that doesn't mean its actually easier to reach the locked out position and this is all because of the different leverages. Example imagine lifting a 100kg fridge up by a height of 1m with a just a rope. Now imagine you use a pulley or a lever to lift it 1.5m. Depending on the set up less force can actually be required despite to lift the fridge. This is just one reason why work done isn't a sound argument for it being easier. Think about narrow vs wide grip pull ups. A wide grip pull up is generally harder than a narrower grip because of the mechanics of the movement.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Simply read my response to 20 more people that wrote the same thing. Thanks 🙏

[@actual_random]

@@YiannisChristoulas I've had a look at some of your other comments but i dont agree that this is sound evidence. Your first point isn't evidence at all that its easier. Your second point is evidence that sumo is easier for shorter athletes but Jeff makes that same point in his video. I think you presented this point very well and it something jess didnt add which was your points about geometry. You say you didn't want to go more indepth in your other replies but if you had more mechanical reasons why sumo is better i think you should have highlighted those as your key points and provided more detail while cutting out the first point about work as its a very shallow one.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@actual_random There are far more important reasons why sumo is easier than the c. This video was only a demonstration of two extremely evidence based reasons. It is undeniable that less distance equals les work. Can you please prove us how less work doesn’t play any role in making the sumo easier? And I mean prove, not speculate

[@actual_random]

@@YiannisChristoulas I don't need to prove less mechanical work doesn't play a role in sumo. Less work done doesn't mean the lift is easier, the assumption that it does is the major error with this point. I gave a mechanical example of why work done doesn't accurately portray the difficult of a lift or how much force the person had to produce. The joints are not moving in a straight line there are levers at play. All work tell us is how much energy was transfered into gravitational potential energy not how difficult the lift was. If there are far more reasons then present those reasons.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@actual_random Just saying things makes us the same with the rest of social media a shirtless dudes that have a degree in losing belly fat. So you can’t prove it. Now the fact that open grip is harder than close grip row although open grip need less work doesn’t prove your point. Open grip is a lot harder due to the different mechanics but one thing that is easier compared to the close grip is the less work needed. However this difference is not even close in making up for the difference that occurs through the mechanics on that particular example. See what I mean? The open row still has an easier work done that affect to a degree the exercise. In biomechanics when we compare two different movements (thus different mechanics, leverages) we include all the variables. Now whether this variable plays a big or a small role in another discussion. This video was only a demonstration that there is sound evidence to support this. Now if you don’t believe that these effects can make a difference, ask Jeff why he said on his video that in the same weight he has a smaller RPE on the sumo, thus feeling it easier.

[@SpartanAesthetix]

Yea I thought there were some things missing but I couldn't place them, sumo is definitely easier for me. Great insights! But damn you were able to get this video out so quickly! Great "work" ;)

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Yeah 😅 that was fast because it was just a simple fact that I wanted to present. There was no review of the literature or long hours over the books. It was just plain biomechanics. Thanks for the support!

[@SpartanAesthetix]

@@YiannisChristoulas truuee I feel you haha. Still, editing, filming, scripting can take a lot of time especially if you have work besides KZbin so Appreciate the effort :)

[@ammarhaziq919]

thx man, im 188 cm tall and 140kg heavy, and i always wonder why the heck i cant get that 70 angle wide stance on sumo deadlift like other shorter lifter without risking my feet hitting the dropping plates every rep, your 2nd point explained everything.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

🙏

[@xHumanFacex]

Not everyone use the wider stance possible to do sumo, i have a sweet spot for sumo which is almost a semi sumo stance, if i go wider i literally lift less maybe cause flexibility and hips structure... on the other hand if i lift conventional my spinal erectors cramps like hell cause my leverage is aweful for conventnional... You oversimplified the argument imo.

[@StarWarsTherapy]

I measured the approximate angle of the arms to the spine and got 47° for sumo and 65° for conventional. Taking the sine of both of these results in 20% less torque on the hips with sumo, treating the spine as a lever and the hips as a fulcrum.

[@isaiahtorres2398]

Even if taller lifters have a fixed amount of distance to widen their stance, wouldn’t it still be worth it to widen their stance as much as possible in that fixed amount of space since it decreases the ROM? (Less ROM = less work)?

[@geoffreyfaltot1006]

I read a great article that, yes greater distance travelled produces more work, but also the greater the distance the pelvis is from the plane of the bar is also going to make it harder to lift the weight. Torque and levers. That made it click for me.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Of course. It’s the same reason it’s harder to pull from deficit

[@liamengram6326]

If sumo wasn't easier there would be no point in powerlifters deciding to train strictly sumo, and we wouldn't have guys pulling 502.5kg sumo without a deadlift suit despite weighing half as much as the only 2 men to previously pull 500+ kg, who both happened to do it in a suit.

[@DisasterRasta]

Honestly this topic is as infuriating as the whole trans "women" in sports.. it's evidently unfair and common sense should be used here but alas no one has common sense these days.. I've seen some outrageous comments stating that retard who pulled 502 is way stronger than Eddie or thor..

[@dannyzer0b965]

'If conventional wasn't easier there would be no point in powerlifters deciding to strictly train conventional' See how your argument doesn't exactly work? To counter your second point Jamal Browner barely trains conventional but did 950lbs on it. Strength is strength.

[@liamengram6326]

@@dannyzer0b965 His max conventional was 420kg (925.9lbs) his best competition pull was 440kg (971.2lbs). It's a different lift. Don't try to fucking putz it up with fuzzy bullshit logic my guy.

[@liamengram6326]

I _rarely_ train sumo and I can STILL pull 30kg more sumo than conventional. My lock out on sumo is below my knees. Don't act like that doesn't reduce ROM and make the lift easier.

[@dannyzer0b965]

@@liamengram6326 I literally used your logic.

[@matiasneira9084]

Yiannis!! I've been asking you for almost 2 years for a video about the science behind the strength with studies !! PLEASEEEE!! NICE VIDEOOO

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Lol! There will be many more coming on strength related subjects! Any particular idea?

[@matiasneira9084]

@@YiannisChristoulas a video like the one you made about flexibility would be interesting, like Get strength by Science - (32 Studies)

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@matiasneira9084 There will definitely be one like it, but it takes months to make videos like those. It’s impossible to post only videos like it

[@matiasneira9084]

@@YiannisChristoulas No problem! I'll wait what I have to wait!

[@kryptoniterazor]

Interesting argument. It would be interesting to see some taller lifters try sumo with some spacers on the bar to allow a wider stance - perhaps they could pull new PRs with such a technique.

[@ryryhc]

For the first point one of the points jeff made was that with sumo even though you are using less distance, you can lift more weight so work would be the same. So assuming the distance lost in sumo is made up in weight, the amount of work done would be the same, right?

[@YiannisChristoulas]

I remember well that point and it was interesting because it felt like admitting that sumo is indeed easier than the conventional. It looks like an argument from the other side of the debate. If you feel less intensity on the sumo and you need to increase the weight to feel the same with lower weight on the conventional, then this is pretty much it.Jeff just admitted that sumo is easier. So if for example at 100kg on the conventional your RPE is 8 and at 100kg sumo is 7 then the conventional is harder. If you have to lift 115 on the sumo to reach RPE 8 then your RPE will rise again on the conventional too. I wasn’t sure why he put that on his video. Nevertheless I wanted to respond with more “measurable aspects” of the problem which are not debatable.

[@ryryhc]

@@YiannisChristoulas interesting point, I didn't think of it that way, but does more weight necessarily mean easier?

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@ryryhc The whole point is if you can lift more weights with sumo (not if it's actually cheating, this is just a way that people phrase it). If you can lift more weights then it's easier in the context of this conflict.

[@Mr._Fit_Atheist]

Well, how much adductor strength is used in conventional vs. sumo? Nobody ever talks about that metric.

[@gonkula]

Very interesting Yannis. At 6'8 (205 cm) I'm challenged to do convention deadlift due to not being able to reach the bar efficiently without compromising at the low back. I find sumo much easier, but I guess by widening the stance I may be losing something from the movement..

[@YiannisChristoulas]

By widening your stance you bring your arms closer to the bar. This means less effort from the hips to get you in the right position. On another note, Imagine having plates that are special according to your height and bring the barbell close to your knees like a 160cm athlete already is with the standard plates. To replicate the same mechanics you need wider bar and lift from blocks.

[@giganticitalianbodybuildin1584]

I mean Thor is 6'9" and lifted 501 conventional, he had to get a wider stance but conventional is still doable. Just tweak the tecnique a bit.

[@Richard_Garza_]

I agree with you. However as a 5’2” @129, I prefer the conventional over sumo. Sumo tears up my front thighs cause my nails rub against them coming up. Because of this I just train conventional.

[@MrEazyE357]

Damn son, you tiny! You a jockey?

[@parappa5002]

Just cut your nails lol

[@JohnSmith-es3dn]

Wear pants bruv

[@jacobschmitt7033]

These are some really interesting counter arguments, but i feel like some of jeffs main points were missed. I would be curious about how you feel in regards to his comparison of deadlifts and the bench press, specifically how people dont apply the same idea to bench pressing. In addition, I don't think jeffs argument is that sumo is easier, he openly ackoweldges this in his video. Jeffs argument is that sumo is easier for some people, while conventional is easier for others, and that everyone should do the lift they feel is best for them. I did however like your inclusion of physics as a mechanical engineer, myself!

[@lawsonsippola2228]

If your comparing 1 rep max strength than Energy/work (Joules) doesn't really matter, it's force you should be worried about. You miss a lift at your weakest spot, where the force of the bar and weight is now greater than the force your body can produce against the bar. The human body can produce maximal force for at least a couple seconds, making worrying about energy/work done or rather ROM a concern only for multiple rep comparisons where the extra work done in conventional will likely fatigue you faster than sumo.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thanks for your comment, my point here is that there IS ''sound evidence'' that sumo is easier in a way. About the starting position, that was my second point about but I didn’t want to expand and make the video longer. For every centimeter that your feet go to the side the knee comes closer to the ground, it’s like lifting from blocks. In addition, there is also a long-term effect to this. If with sumos you exert less work you can train more in every training session which will result in more sports-specific adaptations. 10 reps of conventional were 12 reps of sumo in terms of work, imagine how that accumulates overtime on a training cycle. In addition, most of the athletes (I agree) fail at starting position but not all. To be honest, I could make a video with a ''hundred'' mechanical reasons why sumo is easier at starting position, this was just a quick response to Jeff Nippards comment.

[@lawsonsippola2228]

@@YiannisChristoulas ya i agree with everything you said here. I notice it too that sumo deadlifts with same loads are easier to recover from which makes since fatigue is more corellated with volume and 1 rep of conventionial is slightly more volume than sumo. While i love how a conventional deadlift looks, for 1RM i think they're at least very very similar which is shown by the lack of utter dominance shown by one style in poweifting.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@lawsonsippola2228 Yes this is the picture now but only because barbells go only until 131cm width. If they make wider barbells you'll see 99% of the athletes lifting only sumo (like short ones do), it's just geometry. If it wasn't the case, and to reverse the argument, why there isn't one elit athlete in 59kg competing with conventional? I appreciate the conversation

[@lawsonsippola2228]

@@YiannisChristoulas i think geometry likely explains some of it but if that was the case we would see some super big dudes getting custom longer bars so they could set "records" and get clout/fame/money. At higher weight classes we see lifters often have closer squats to deadlifts. This is likely due to as humans get heavier they hold more mass in the torso including spinal erectors which allows for more torso rigidity. Something similar could be happening with deadlifts that smaller sumo lifters have weaker relative to weight spinal erectors compared to heavier lifters. Not to mention that as humans get bigger mobility goes down so it is unlikely that as many large lifters could take advantage of sumo.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@lawsonsippola2228 This conversation gets better and better and it’s clear that you have experience on the topic. However experience not based on relevant to the subject academic education can be extremely misleading, because these arguments are based only on the outcome. This is what happens with most of these KZbinrs. Regarding your first point: One, Do you really think that that bigger dudes know about this (geometry rule) or have ever thought about this? Honestly, did you ever hear that by someone else except me? Can you point out any article that talk about it in any fitness blog? Jeff Nippard lifts his entire life with sumo, he is a very well thought athlete and admitted that he hasn’t thought about this. Second, if a very large dude has been training his entire life on conventional, switching to sumo for a year just to make a record, wouldn’t be enough time to create similar adaptations. We would see everyone lift the same if they were the similar training years too on both styles. Regarding your second point: Even if we assume (with no actual evidence), that shorter athletes have less strength (spinal erectors) in general because they have less mass on the torso, this would mean that the mass of the torso plays a vital role. Then, the fact that shorter athletes lift in every repetition less mass on their torso would again play a vital role in counterbalancing their ‘’weakness’’. Shorter lifters lift much less than taller ones, and much of this ‘’less weight’’ is due to less mass on the torso. So even if they had proportionally less strength on the spinal erectors they would counterbalance it with less mass on the torso to lift. Of course these are all assumptions, geometry is geometry. Third point: Humans don’t get less mobile as they get bigger, it happens that I’ve read every paper on flexibility that exists. They just move less due to the increased weight and forces which results in a less active range of motion. If a shorter athlete moves less than they do, he will have the same result. Bigger athletes could increase their active range and do wide sumo easier. Bonus: One of the real issues is the point that the barbell starts in relation to the body of a shorter vs a taller athlete. If a shorter athlete starts with the barbell almost on his knees while a taller at the middle of his lower leg then wouldn’t that need mechanical alteration?

[@ognjen1825]

This is the only educative video confronting this theory. You sir did a great job. My point will, however, stay the same. If you are not training for competing, you should practice using both stances. If you are, use whatever you are stronger with, because it will determine your placement in the competition, after all.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thank you, I do my best for this channel and I really appreciate comments like this! And let me ask your point of you on this one; if not training for competition, what would be a good reason to choose sumo over another exercise? In other words, which fitness goal would be best “served” by implementing sumo deadlifts over another exercise on someone’s program?

[@KurokamiNajimi]

Nah you should practice both either way because they stimulate your muscles different which gives you more strength potential. The same way you wouldn’t tell someone to only do wide grip bench instead of also doing incline, close grip, Swiss bar, etc

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@KurokamiNajimi Can you tell as a muscle group that is best trained with sumo deadlifts?

[@KurokamiNajimi]

@@YiannisChristoulas I’m basically talking about a conjugate type approach if you’ve heard of that. If not it’s from a guy who recently passed away named Louie Simmons who founded westside barbell. He came up with a system that allowed you to max out 1-2 times weekly while also doing high volume which gets rid of the issue that comes with traditional strength hypertrophy blocks. It works because you change the variation of the lift you max on, since the different variations use our muscles different we avoid getting snapped up. By extension if some of those muscles are weak links then when you bring them up the main lift is gonna increase as well. Westside/conjugate developed a bad rep but a guy called Alpha Destiny who is most likely one of the few real naturals on the platform has been debunking the main critiques like needing more excessive specificity, not being able to do enough volume, whether or not using lots of variations even works. To your question about sumo I wouldn’t say it’s so much that sumo or a lot of these variations are the best at developing anything. More so to do with the fact the specific way it stimulates might be a weak link for you. Pretty much any exercise you could argue you don’t necessarily need to grow a muscle. You could never do benching and instead do weighted push ups and weighted dips. But that doesn’t mean including the bench in addition to those wouldn’t make you even jacked and strong. If you’re asking for the science of how each exercises specifically hits I couldn’t tell ya, I just know this shit works haha. Alec Enkiri use to be against the idea but he recently hopped on the train a bit

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@KurokamiNajimi I like the introduction of Louie. Yes it works, for increasing maximal strength. Maximal strength is one component of strength. Strength is one of the components of physical ability. Fitness is not only maximal strength, but at least 20 more components. If you train 5 times a week with every possible variation, only for maximal strength, how much time is it left for the rest? Mr Simone’s wasn’t dealing with missing links in general, if he was doing so he would be doing unilateral work too. He was dealing with missing links for a very specific purpose.

[@DS-ej9wm]

While I like most of Jeff's video's, that one seems biased towards his own lifting technique. Thanks for clarifying what I was also thinking about!

[@YiannisChristoulas]

I like most of Jeff Nippard’s videos too, but he couldn’t be biased on this one

[@MrEazyE357]

Yes it did. Of course Jeff is gonna be biased toward sumo, he's basically a jacked gnome.

[@WestsideBoy]

The maximal stance width imposed by the plate distance is such a good point ! Also, I would say technically the arbitrary starting point of approx 8 inches off the ground scales better for shorter athletes too. Sumo is such an unsatisfying feeling to me too. I've repped out 500lbs sumo easily, pulled about 600lbs conventional. There is something so unsatisfying about a sumo deadlift that even if I can lift more weight with it I am just so repulsed to do so lol. Infact, most of my training now revolves around deficit conventional deadlifts !

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thank you! I get what you mean, it feels the same for me too

[@JorgeSanchez-kr3eb]

Where is the forward shoulders video?? I’ve been waiting for it since you first mentioned it like a month ago.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

It’s going live on Sunday, it will be long 😅 but a ton of value in it! Let me know what you’ll make of it when I publish it.

[@Aakash.Singh1]

I'm a short guy (just 175 cm) and I still do conventional. Sumo, for some reason, kills my hips and groin. I feel like it's tearing my hip joint apart. I had back pain with sumo deadlifts. Never felt any discomfort with conventional deadlift

[@onceuponarevenant9409]

Interesting it is the other way around for me. Sumo is the only way my lower back doesnt visit snap city.

[@rodbarrett1581]

Online scientizmos and semantics are out of control . Workout videos have now become more about calling each other out. Everyone has differing opinions and yet all are jacked and strong. People of earth!!! If you want to grow pick up weights and put them down again. I have learned this philosophy after wasting so much of my time listening to all these guys.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

The fact that people like you end up so confused by the online fitness influencers, that are forced to unihhilate everything and focus on prehistoric ideas for exercise, is the reason I started this channel

[@rodbarrett1581]

@@YiannisChristoulas congratulations! What kind of cookie do you want?

[@YiannisChristoulas]

​@@rodbarrett1581 A zero sugar with oat. I just wrote this to say that I was annoyed by the level and quantity of misinformation exactly like you are. This channel will serve the opposite purpose.

[@tylerchristian7113]

I like to consider them as separate lifts so it’s not rlly cheating just expressing ur proficiency in one movement v. another. This also depends on context, bc the best lifters in the world use conventional sumo can’t be cheating right? Well how abt the avg person? Most ppl might be able to lift more w sumo. Just separate the events bc you’re challenging different muscles w these different mechanics 🤷‍♂️

[@YiannisChristoulas]

03:29

[@renzen4354]

This video seems incomplete as a "response" video to jeff's video. You should tackle all of his points instead of the select few that you have an "answer" on

[@johnmccollin511]

You are correct as far as you go but it's not the whole picture. "Cheating" is a concept that only applies to competition not "training" so there are some additional factors to consider. In training (sets of reps) the energy/work (in Joules) is relevant as are the, associated, depletion of glycogen and buildup of lactic acid - so sumo would allow for more reps before failure. Obviously if you want to do a certain amount of work in training you would need more sumo reps than conventional reps. HOWEVER, the force required to pull 100kg is always going to be 98.1 kN (on Earth) regardless of the range of motion. For a 1RM (competition) lift aerobic capacity, glycogen availability, & lactic acid buildup are all irrelevant - simply "can you apply the requisite force?" In a competition there is a long rest interval between efforts. But the big difference is that in sumo you use your quads a lot more and they are very strong (i.e. able to exert a high force). Also, in addition to the stance width, a shorter limbed lifter has mechanical advantage in the sumo style. In other words one is closer to using "leg press" muscles in sumo (I can currently leg-press about 3x my deadlift) which is advantageous. The bottom line is - in training, cheating is not an issue - in competition, the question is "is it within the rules?" - I don't think that sumo is in the same category as "lifting suits" etc., it is just a case of different athletes using techniques that suit their physiques. Understand your body and use the technique(s) that meet your training and/or completion objectives.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

A few things here 1) This is not a video with the whole picture of why sumo is easier than the conventional, but only a response to the ''not sound evidence'' of another KZbinr. So my purpose of this video was to present reasons based on extremely sound evidence. I just presented the two most basic that can be found even in books like the Essentials. 2) But of course, there are many more, and I completely agree with the quads that you mentioned, as I have explained over and over in the comments of this video. Still, there are many more reasons. 3) As I said in the video we use the word ''cheating'' just to say it's easier. We don't actually suggest that someone is cheating somewhere. 4) Work is not only relevant to glucogen depletion (+ PCr) and lactic acid build-up but it is tightly connected with the development of peak strength in the long run. Before I explain just a small note... lactic acid is an old term for what you wanted to explain, today it is well understood that the build-up of hydrogen ions causes the muscle to become more acidic, thus creating this feeling of burn and pain (you can find more here: Robergs, R. A., Ghiasvand, F., & Parker, D. (2004). Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis. American journal of physiology. Regulatory, integrative and comparative physiology). Now the main driving factor of muscle development and strength is volume (on the same intensities). If you can (by having lowe ''work'') accumulate more volume during a given period on the same weight with sumo, then you will of course develop more adaptations to maximal strength. And this difference is crazy. In just 12 sessions of 9 sets-10 reps the ''sumo lifter'' will accumulate 216 more reps on the same weight as a ''conventional lifter'' with the same amount of work. If that is not relevant to increasing rapidly strength and competing in a 1RM competition, I can't imagine what else would be. This is entirely based on work and energy expenditure.

[@johnmccollin511]

@@YiannisChristoulas thanks Yannis. I'll look up the citation. I didn't read the whole set of comments - so I apologise if I repeated things that you covered before. Personally I use the conventional deadlift to target my lower-back (I have a weakness associated with an old injury) - but I shall use sumo for competition next year to make advantage of my body's geometry. Keep posting well informed videos. Thanks.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@johnmccollin511 Hope you get well and in competition shape soon! Keep posting on this channel I enjoy the conversation :)

[@smartsimplefit]

Excellent video, I would love to see Jeff respond to this.

[@FieryRedDonkeyOfHell]

Or we can just acknowledge that Sumo and Conventional are both different exercises and as such we can only compare Sumo to Sumo and Conventional to Conventional

[@theendoffaith5903]

Comparing conventional vs sumo is like comparing conventional pull ups versus butterfly pull ups or conventional bench press versus arch bench press 🤷🏻‍♂️….

[@kdekded]

Awesome analysis brother. I will be publishing a video to talk about his "is sumo cheating" video in several days and it will be the bomb!!

[@jmber27]

I can't agree with the science, I can do more reps with conventional deadlifts than Sumo ... with the same weight. Like 3 - 4 more reps 🤔

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Your experience is interesting, and it highlights a key aspect of scientific research. Science aims to identify trends and patterns that apply generally, rather than focusing on individual cases. What works for one person might not work for another, and that's perfectly normal. For instance, in a study of 1000 people, a particular drug might effectively alleviate headaches for the majority, but it might not work for a smaller group, say 50 people. This doesn't negate the drug's overall effectiveness. Similarly, while you may perform better with conventional deadlifts, this doesn't invalidate the science-based reasoning about Sumo deadlifts. Science is all about understanding general patterns while acknowledging individual variations. In addition, it's important to consider personal training history and skill level. If you've trained more extensively in one style over the other, or if there's a disparity in your ability to perform each exercise optimally, that could also influence your personal experience.

[@mvpdrome3226]

The amount of energy used while doing the work is the same! more distance just means that you gotta keep putting the same amount of energy (so the inertia doesnt go way) for couple more seconds! you also gotta take in count people's anatomy, some people cant get in a sumo stance with out pain, or mobility restrictions, and other people cant get in a conventional stance without pain or mobility restrictions! thats why you got people like Halfthor and Eddie who had said that they had tried sumo and it doesn't feel good for them, and there is people like "most sumo pullers" that had tried conventional but it doesn't feel good for them! I myself tried sumo for about 6 months, never was able to find a position where I felt my glutes firing, I did manage to sumo about 50 more pounds than what I use to in conventional, but once I swap back to conventional, I was rep[ my previous pr for 5, and added 30 more pounds to my sumo pr but in conventional! now I practice both, when I see I am stuck with one I switch to the other, and it has being working well for me, even when I feel some pain while doing sumo.

[@aurora3861]

so its easier to fingertip curl 1000kg than clean and jerk 100kg bc the distance is much bigger with the clean and jerk, am I unstanding correctly?

[@YiannisChristoulas]

If what you just said proves that distance doesn't matter, then being able to easily lift 40kg in a clean and jerk but struggling to lift 20kg in a fingertip curl would also prove that weight doesn't matter too.

[@user-pn3ss8sl8i]

No matter the joules the hardest parts of the lift still need to be hit (that being getting the bar of the grond and geting it threw the knees).The joules for the rest of the movment dont really mater since if you can get pass these 2 breaking points the rest is easy.

[@Ladosligese]

i am amazed that ive been right all these years LOL .. been arguing with people about it .. i allways knew that deadlift in strongman is lift .. and lock out .. and if you dont have to travel as far with the weight there is bound to be less stress on the body wich should make it easier to lockout .. i hope i understood it right haha

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Yea that’s the main point!

[@evgesoch]

Thanks for the educational content Yiannis ! The fitness industry definitely has a lot to learn from ya.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thank you! I'll keep them coming!

[@jfandjanicegrenier3402]

It's basically the same comparison of someone who does a descent normal arching to someone who can arch so extremely that they only get 2 inches ROM from chest to lockout.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Yeah, and the mechanics of the starting position are a lot (I mean A LOT) better

[@aridgp1]

In conventional you are lifting to a higher height than sumo, so its much tougher according to physics as simple as that.

[@TheBartboy007]

Great video as always! I've enjoyed watching the maturation of your work.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thanks for the support Gavi!

[@h20falcon59]

The work example is a bit dishonest no ? Jeff says in his video that the ROM is compensated for by the weight moved if you use the same weight for both of course the conventional has more work done but the fact that some people can move more weight on the sumo means that there is compensation...

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Hi there, I have responded to this many times in the comments. It’s an extensive response. Check it out 🙃

[@joshuacorvi8364]

Hoping the round shoulders video comes soon!!!!

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Hahaha it IS the next one I promise! I had some problems with the editing cause it’s a long video, too much to do in there. But I will upload it in the next ten days or so. I’ll be waiting your feedback though now that I see you anticipate it so much 😎

[@vasilikipatitsa266]

You are always so detailed and accurate coach! Really enjoyed this one! Keep up the great work!

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thank you I really appreciate it!

[@safeldass1764]

Force applied through the movement is not uniform

[@YiannisChristoulas]

👍

[@arbr_i]

Came through with the angles, the formulas and everything. Literally saving this video anytime anyone tries to argue. Great video. Liked and subbed 💪🙏

[@jsagers2008]

If you ain’t lifting with you’re spine, then are you really lifting?

[@DouglasDuhaime]

Are there scientific studies of athletes 1rm both styles?

[@YiannisChristoulas]

None that I’m aware of. If an athlete spends his entire career lifting Sumo or Conventional,he will not be good or better at the opposite. I don’t think such study would be valuable on this bases. However, testing the performance of untrained individuals on these two movements (maybe with a short period of preparation) would be interested in my opinion

[@mel-el5862]

Abyone hating on the sumo deadlifts probably sucks at sumo. Im good at both either way. Its recommended to train conventional to carry over into your sumo if you prefer sumo. Thank me later

[@Hankola]

Less distance; less work. That's all we need to know. Excellent break down. I've seen another video where the two types are broken down, and it's calculated where the sumo position can outperform a conventional position by a good margin.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thanks man!

[@johnbobbyjackson1141]

Exactly, shorter distance with equal weight. Not hard to understand.

[@kallebak5792]

Tell me you didn't watch jeffs video without telling me you didn't watch jeffs video

[@neversate]

You need to do a live debate with him brother

[@YiannisChristoulas]

I don’t think Nippard would agree to get destroyed on a live

[@emirbfitness]

yea but when u go on a walk u do way more work are u gonna say walking is “harder” than deadlifting ?

[@MOJOverseManny]

Not the same u can walk everyday injury free. Can we say the same for deadlifts?

[@onlycyz]

Liked! Excellent video my fellow Mediterranean

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thank you!

[@jatoxalex508]

Dude when you measured how far the plate was from the ground one side was higher than the other so that’s not completely accurate

[@qqq2307]

Does that change the point?

[@plastictaste_]

@@qqq2307 Well yes, the work isn't just straight up linear, that's like saying it's the same work unlocking your knees to move 10cm on a squat is the as going from ass-at-bottom and 10cm up. The latter is obviously way more work extensive and the relevant part, so this whole "simplification" is pure ass

[@amitev]

Very well explained and justified! Greetings from Bulgaria.

[@Lutestick]

I think you need to rewatch the video because Jeff said that the reason Sumo is equal to conventional is because he lifts and generally people will lift more weight which will equal the force output. I do agree they shouldn’t be in the same competition as they are different lifts. I my self prefer conventional but if you are lifting more with sumo then it’s not easier.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

I think you need to rethink what you wrote here. The Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE) is a way to rate how hard you feel an exercise. In his video Jeff clearly said that he has a lower RPE with sumo and for this reason he lifts more to have the same RPE with conventional. But this is exactly the point. If on the same weight you have different RPE then it means the one is easier that the other. That’s the whole point of the debate. I don’t know why he added that to his video because it’s exactly like saying that “yes sumo is easier indeed”. And of course you can’t say what he said… it’s like saying “close grip bench press isn’t harder than wide grip because I lift more repetitions on the close grip and make it equal” 🤦‍♂️ The whole debate is if you can lift the same weight easier with sumo than with conventional, didn’t Jeff admit that with what he said there?

[@Henry-pc4bf]

excellent video! thank you for sharing brother

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thanks for the support Henry!

[@liamengram6326]

The comedy in Jeff defending sumo, for me, is that he's already like 5'5. His conventional pull length is already like 8 or 9 inches shorter than mine despite me having really long arms.

[@nicolasbesson4392]

Yes I agree with the fact that you need less total work to perform sumo deadlift, but you don't take into account that more effort is required to the quads with sumo than with conventional, which means that if someone has weaker quads and a stronger lower back, sumo will still be harder than conventional, that's why it depends that much on the lifter. The math would be : let Wqs be the work performed by the quads to lift a certain weight in sumo deadlift, Wls the work performed by the lower back in sumo, Wqc by quads to lift the same weight in conventional and Wlc by lower back in conventional. We do have : Wqc + Wlc > Wqs + Wls. But we also have Wqs > Wqc (which necessarily implies Wlc > Wls of course). We can have a lifter that can lift Wlc and Wqc (making them able to pull conventional) but unable to lift Wqs (making them unable to pull sumo)

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Hi Nicolas! Thanks for your comment but unfortunately this is not the case. If this was true then close grip bench press wouldn’t be harder than wide grip. If someone had stronger triceps than pecs then the close grip bench would be easier right? So no one could argue that the one is harder than the other in any exercise, simply because some can be better at it. Same way Front squat wouldn’t be necessarily harder than back squat. In reality, some muscles are stronger than others for all humans. The strength of a muscle is determined mainly by its cross-sectional area. The biggest muscle in the human body is the quads. So, the strongest muscles of the human body are the quads. This is just another reason why sumo is easier. Sumo sifts the intensity to the stronger muscles of the body (quads). We make arguments based on the human nature. There will always be exceptions

[@Lordofthewasteland]

its not cheating its just a different lift than conventional it comes down to wether feds allow it or not and they do pu this to rest

[@cdcdcd6777]

very good point. indeed a valid arguement, so in same way, those fake bench with arched back should be banned!

[@YiannisChristoulas]

to be honest, I don't think we should ban anything, it's just good to know the exact role of each movement.

[@nguyenthinh6]

Sumo reduce rom, reduce very much if you put your leg in bigger distance

[@YiannisChristoulas]

It does

[@chrisjelsma3153]

Idgaf what people say i can conventional as much as sumo

[@YiannisChristoulas]

This comment sounds like a teenager talking back to his parents

[@evdi4263]

Τρομερός Γιάννη!!! Πολύ ωραία και επεξηγηματικά όλα!

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thank you thank you thank you! 😄

[@williamscott6209]

Conventional hurts my lower back, so I'm gonna keep using sumo

[@Michamocca]

Just subscribed becaus of this video 👍🏽

[@captureoutdoormedia]

The goal is to lift the most weight possible..willingly choosing the less efficient method to accomplish the same task seems silly.

[@charshii3745]

THANK YOU!!! I’m gonna gonna share this with everyone.

[@Nirsterkur]

Brilliant! You are great! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@jonathanb9721]

You are misrepresenting work done with peak power out put, over the rep do you need to do more work in conventional, of course you do. Does that mean that it allows you to have a higher peak output and therefore lift more weight? You’re comparing apples to oranges. It’s like arguing that one sprinting style is cheating and one isn’t cause one athlete is less tired at the end of the race, if the athlete that was more tired at the end of the race tried the other technique and cut a tenth of a second of his time is he now cheating because he used less energy?

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Work is definitely an aspect that should be considered in any type of activity, even 100m sprints, if you want to have an actual analysis of all the components that contribute to the movement. I Agree that other aspects (like the fact that sumo uses more the quads, quads are the biggest muscles, cross-sectional area of a muscle is the most important aspect to muscle strength, therefore using the quads more against using more the lower back would mean… 😊), are more appropriate to explain why the sumo is a lot easier than the conventional. However, this is not a video with a breakdown analysis of every reason that proves sumo is easier. It’s just a response to the line “no actual evidence”. So these are some pretty solid evidence, the rest of the debate is only for people that either don’t have an academic background in biomechanics or are sworn defenders of the sumo just because.. However there are also long term effects that I’m sure anyone can understand. So Two questions for you: 1) Wouldn’t less work allow me to accumulate higher training volume during a given training period? 2) Isn’t volume the most crucial training variable to increase maximal strength? If it’s easier to do 10 reps of sumo than conventional, wouldn’t I be able to train more and increase faster my maximal strength?

[@fatfingersman]

Agreed Yiannis. Sumo just makes Jeff feel like a bigger man.

[@MrEazyE357]

I have a feeling that's why Jeff started lifting. He's basically a gnome.

[@DavidRoetman]

You earned yourself a subscriber. I love Jeff but his video on this topic had some missing content that you covered. Well done!

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thanks man! I'm glad you found it helpful 💪

[@huhyou4271]

Haha, let's hope that Yiannis doesn't end up in Jeff's basement anytime soon xD

[@pwndaman1018]

I'm short i cheat at every lift.

[@charlsmartel]

Less work does not equal easier.

[@Brandon-ob9rg]

But conveniental deadlifts hurt my lower back 😭

[@GG-jn9fx]

Me too. I’m just going to pull sumo from a deficit since I train for general strength and not specifically powerlifting.

[@Kalman_Gainz]

According to "basic physics" work done onto the barbell is different than work done by your body. You can model the human body as a kinematic chain consisting of several rotating joints. The work done by a rotating joint is equal to joint torque multiplied by joint's angular displacement. You calculate the work done by each joint during the entire motion. This is the work done by your body during the entire motion. I think you can also look at the calories burned in one rep as well. So yes, it is true that Work = Force * Distance, that does give the work done onto the barbell, but that is not equal to the work done by your body which is either sum of (joint torque * joint angle) or calories burned. If sumo deadlift is easier, then given the same weight as conventional deadlift, the same person's body would end up doing less work. Due to different individuals' biomechanics, they would most certainly have different joint torques / joint angles even if given same weight for the barbell. So overall, I think the argument "less force*distance in sumo" isn't relevant in determining whether sumo is easier or not.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

People that are biased in favor of sumo always write comments with words like "your calculations" and "people have different joint torques/angles". First of let's start by repeating that these are not my calculations. This is the primary way that work is calculated by an entire scientific field devoted to analyzing the human body's movement. It's called the science of Biomechanics. You can open the Essentials, 4th edition, page 28 and see exactly what I presented here. So my first point here is that you are not arguing with me but more with the preferred way to calculate work in the science of Biomechanic. So first point is that these are not "my calculation." But let's see why they do that. Isn't it also true that our body moves in angles and not in a linear way? Yes, our bodies move in angles. But anyone who can answer the question that 1+1=2 can also understand that as long as work done onto the barbell increases, so does the angular work done by our bodies. So even if their not equal, and let's say 100kg onto the barbell are 400joules on the barbell and 300 joules for the body, I assume that you can understand that if you increase the joules needed onto the barbell, then you increase also the joules required by the body too. In general, it is almost impossible to measure the actual angular movement of the human body accurately. Even the best tech currently can only do it partially for many reasons. For this reason, and due to the direct relationship between work done onto the object and the work exerted by the body, measuring work with the method they propose (and I presented in this video) is 100% valid. It is meaningless to argue that work done is not the same between body and object when they have a linear correlation (one increases, the other increases too), and there is no accurate way to calculate the latter. The other big argument from sworn soldiers to defend sumo, is that every human has different angles and torques. Yes, of course, they have, but how do you know that between two athletes of the same height, these differences are adequate to produce meaningful changes? How can you possibly measure something like that when scientists can not accurately do it even in a lab? The answer is you can't. I highly doubt that the magnitude of these differences could have any meaningful effect on people of the same size. But even in that case, any angular system will work with less angular distances in less linear distance (overall distance). Isn't that obvious too? I think you are either blind by your biased or didn't though about this a all, and you just wrote a comment from the top of your head (that I now I've now spent 10 minutes answering).If sumo travels less distance, any type of angular system will work with less angular displacement within that distance in comparison to a larger distance. You are doing the same things that I tried to debunk in this video. You are making assumptions, and based on your assumptions, you infer conclusions. But if you don't, you can probably answer the following questions. 1) Doesn't angular work exerted by our bodies increase as the work done onto the barbell increases? 2) Doesn't the overall distance of the movement affect the angular displacement of an angular system moving within that distance? 3) Do you have proof that the differences in the angles/torques between athletes of the same size are adequate to significantly affect the force applied on the barbell? Is it just an assumption that you like to believe? 4) If the method I presented here is not correct. How do you think they calculate work done in sports? Can you show us examples, articles, or anything suggesting that there is another, better practice to do so?

[@Kalman_Gainz]

@@YiannisChristoulas My background is robotics and I just happen to work out. I also personally prefer conventional deadlift but I'm not convinced it's more difficult than sumo. 1) There is no generalized linear relationship between angular work by the joints of any kinematic chain (such as the human body) and the work done onto whatever the end effector is carrying (such as a barbell). There are specific conditions in which there is a linear relationship between work done on end effector and work done by the joints. If the joints are constrained to have the exact same angular displacements, and both the joint torques and end effector mass are increased by the same proportion. This condition is satisified if the exact same movement (same joints, same range of motion on each joint) is performed but weight is increased. This condition is not satisfied if different movements are involved, such as between sumo deadlift and conventional deadlift. 2 ) There is no generalized linear relationship between angular displacements of joints of a kinematic chain and the trajectory of the end effector. For example, I can hold a dumbell and rotate my shoulder / elbow joints such that while my arm is moving, the dumbell is stationary. Overall, the relationship between joint angles / joint work and end effector displacement / end effector work is governed by forward / inverse kinematics, and not the trajectory of the end effector. 3) This just math / forward kinematics. End effector force is a function of joint torques, joint angles, and kinematic chain configuration. You change the end effector force, by changing these 3 parameters, whether the kinematic chain is a robot manipulator or a human body. If you apply more torque at a joint, there will be more force at the end effector, and vice versa: if more force is applied at an end effector, the joints need to apply more torque to keep the end effector stationary. For example, when holding a dumbell in front you with your arm full extended, the dumbell is applying a force on the end effector (your hand), a heavier dumbell will apply a greater force. This also applies a torque to your shoulder joint. To keep the dumbell stationary, there must be no rotation on your shoulder joint so it must apply a torque as well. If there is no movement of the dumbell, the torque applied by your shoulder is equal (but opposite direction) to the torque it's receiving from holding the dumbell in that manner. 4) The method you described calculates work done onto the barbell, if that's what you're looking for then it's correct, but it needs to make a distinction between that and work done by your body; the physics explaining work done by a kinematic chain are the same wether its a robot manipulator or a human body,. I don't know what they do to calculate work in sports because its not my area of expertise. Some other comments: "Yes, of course, they have, but how do you know that between two athletes of the same height, these differences are adequate to produce meaningful changes? How can you possibly measure something like that when scientists can not accurately do it even in a lab? The answer is you can't." > Then perhaps I don't think you can conclusively say which one is easier or harder based on these methods alone. In order to make a conclusive determination, other methods should be used in addition to calculation of work, such as but not limited to: - calories burned per complete rep at a given weight - impact on subsequent exercises after performing sumo or conventional deadlift - muscle activation measurements using electromyography (tho I'm not an expert and I'm not educated in the use / interpretation of data from this testing) "But even in that case, any angular system will work with less angular distances in less linear distance (overall distance). Isn't that obvious too? " and "If sumo travels less distance, any type of angular system will work with less angular displacement within that distance in comparison to a larger distance." > See my response to #1 and #2. Just because angular displacements in a kinematic chain are greater, doesn't always mean the end effector will have a longer path. It's actually not obvious. Forward and inverse kinematics often exhibit nonlinear behaviour and can at times be unintuitive.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

​@@Kalman_Gainz I don't think you understood my 3 first questions. On the fourth I understand that is not your field and you don't know. However, this is probably why you struggle with this. 1) On my first question, I simply ask if, on similar movements increasing work on the object translates to increased work on the body. You got into extreme examples to present occasions where maybe there is not a direct relationship. But here we are talking about a very similar lifts. If I need 400 joules to lift the barbell and 500 joules were exerted from my body, then if I put 500 joules on the barbell, then I'll also have put more joules with my body. Isn't that proof that there is a direct relationship between these two? It doesn't get more simple than that. 2) In question two, you try to convince prove again a point with completely different movements. So let me ask it this way, when will your body exert more joules if you lift 100kg or 150kg. The answer is on the second, as the work demanded lifting the barbell. Increase everything increases too. Sumo and conventional are not that different to suggest that the change in angle function can cover up a difference of that size. 3)and on the third one, I didn't ask you how angle asymmetries affect the system. I asked you if you have evidence that these asymmetries/differences between athletes of the same size, can be adequate to provide meaningful changes. Most importantly. this video aimed in presenting some and all the factors that contribute in this equation. Did you notice that on the video? "Here I'll present some science-proven factors" not all. I never said that work done is the only component that contributes in this analysis. I only said that this is one scieence-based crystal clear component, in reaction to "no science-based" that Nippard said. In that sense, work demanded in sumo is much less than in conventional, period. Other factors might be favoring the one against the other, but i'd like to see the evidence on that. I usually don't respond to comments like this because they never end. No matter how I explain things, the other person will keep finding an extreme example or an exception of the exceptions to prove their point. In reality, I should probably have handed you a biomechanics book to study and then discussed this again with you after you finished it.

[@illizizon9569]

@@YiannisChristoulas Human body is not a machine. What about static work? When lets say someone is in middle of deadlift and holds that position, according to your calculations that means the body is not working thus it will not consume energy. We know thats not true right? Human body works different than a machine. You can also lift the barbel up with your arms while doing the downwards deadlift movement so it will keep the barbel in a static position. Does that mean no work is done at that moment only because the barbel is in static position? Also he is true in different aspects and you should calm down because I am also a mechanical engineer and his understanding seems far superior than yours. I bet you didnt hear half of the words in his comment in your life. You think you the pro here only because you read some biomechanics book, congrats. You apply very basic physics to a complex movement.

[@plastictaste_]

yiannias got debunked again and is acting like a clown, as always lmao

[@Jamiey-]

Bloody brilliant video

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thanks Jamiey I appreciate it

[@scott-hr3hd]

Bingo.

[@TheDanteBoots]

if sumo is easier that makes conventional harder by default

[@orenisraeli-841]

Thank you again 🙏

[@YiannisChristoulas]

🙏

[@moredeltsmorepelts9578]

I’m 6’4 with long femurs, conventional is just not for me. Unless I have something to elevate the plates a little its just not anatomically advantageous

[@johnevert3043]

If this was true then all powerlifters would do sumo in competition.

[@MrMessiah2013]

This analysis misses out on a key aspect of lifting heavy weights: you don’t miss a rep because of the total exertion throughout the rep (total work, pointed out here), you miss a rep at the weakest point (between the point of maximal contraction and minimum velocity) when the muscle gives out. It doesn’t matter how much less energy you’re putting into lifting the weight if your muscles aren’t strong enough to produce the necessary contractions. That’s where more complex calculations like Nippard’s or Greg Nuckols’ come in. That said, I consider the two as separate exercises outside of competition settings where both are legal.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

I’ll try to explain this the best way I can, although if you found Nippard’s kindergarten ultra-biased calculations complex I’m not sure if you’ll understand this comment. 1) First let’s say that things are that simple and work doesn’t matter for maximal strength tests. My second argument with the angles presents why there is a clear benefit in the mechanics of the sumo that can significantly effects maximal force. So you commented by saying that half of my arguments didn’t take under consideration maximal force and you ignored that the second one did. It’s like ignoring that lifting from blocks doesn’t make a difference. 2) Now let’s get a bit more serious. Every single paper that has been done on strength development has proven that more volume results in more strength gains. If you can do on average 2 more reps with the sumo on a 10-rep set, for 20 sets per week, this equals to around 160 reps more volume per month. Isn’t that enough for the sumo lifter to develop much faster strength adaptations than the one that does conventional? Just think about it. With sumo you’ll probably do around 2000 more reps per year while spending the same amount of work. If you’re not a fitness professional I don’t expect you to have thought about this instead of just thinking what work does on a single lift. However I would expect Nuckol to include it in his “complex” calculations. For some reason he didn’t. 3) Yes these are different movements but our job as fitness professionals is to compare, to understand and to know. If Wide grip pull downs are harder than close grip pull downs I won’t try to argue that they are not, by saying that these are just different movements. 4) if you saw the intro of the video you probably saw that this is not an in-depth analysis of every reason sumo is easier than conventional. Is only a response to the “no sound evidence” that nippard claimed. So I just made this video to present two undeniable science facts that are easier on the sumo. Just that. In the future I might do one video to explain a lot more reasons why sumo is easier, IF Nippard has the guts or the scientific capacity to ever respond to this video and ask for more 😎

[@doldemenshubarti8696]

idk. I always bashed on sumo because it looked stupid to me. But i actually can't do sumo as easily as conventional. I understand it's probably because I don't train sumo at all, but it feels terrible and I really don't like how it feels when I use it. (it almost feels unsafe). lot of people argued for sumo deadlift because it replicates how we should be lifting something off the floor. I've literally never seen anyone including me using sumo deadlift style to lift anything heavy off a floor. All in all, I think sumo deadlift is more like wide arm pull up. Wide arm pull up is harder short grip pull up just because it uses less muscles despite less distance moved. It's like bicep curling 45 lb is easier than wrist curling 45 lb despite wrist curling also has less ROM.

[@TrickingGR]

Τέλεια η εξήγηση! 👏

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thank you!!

[@adnanrawashdeh3965]

Excellent video

[@YiannisChristoulas]

🙏

[@asdfzxc1234]

100kg 2 reps. if 1 rep is .5 meters, the total work done is 981J 200kg 1rep is also 981J hence, if you can do 100kg for 10 reps, you can do 1000kg for 1 rep hence sumo is cheating 🥰🥰

[@TamNguyen-qx8zg]

Im totally convinced with your points. You really help correct my understanding about this topic. No one is perfect, and I'm kinda suprised to see Jeff proven wrong, but thats what make science improve. Love both you and Jeff

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thanks Tam I appreciate it!

[@Felipekimst]

Physics alone shouldn't be considered, you have to take into account biomechanics as well, lifting 100kg by 20cm conventional is easier than lifting 80kg by 20cm with one leg only, even though the amount of joules is smaller, we need to take into consideration the work done by the involved muscles. (Which is the tricky part)

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@Felipekimst Nothing really tricky here. The sumo uses more the quads which are the biggest muscles of the body. the strength of a muscle is determined mainly by its cross-sectional area. Thus the quads are the strongest muscles of the body. Sumo uses more quads and conventional more lower back. Physics and geometry are only some (not the only) parts of the equation I agree

[@diapollo4949]

Interesting Yannis. As Prof. Walter Levin once said "Physic Work"

[@ree2453]

Someone should force Matt Vena to watch this. Great video

[@GG-jn9fx]

Matt still pulls pretty big numbers conventional

[@charlsmartel]

By the same logic arching on a bench press would be cheating. Yet it is accepted. Also if it really is easier why don't more deadlifters use it? Maybe because technically it is more challenging to do sumo.

[@Vagelis_Prokopiou]

Εξαιρετικός

[@YiannisChristoulas]

🙏

[@wesvond.2758]

Yannis you conveniently leave out what Jeff mentioned at the 6 min mark in his video. He offsets the 15% range of motion with a 15% increase in weight which will the equal to same joules. Not cool bro, you are skewing what Jeff is saying.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Oh god, do you see what bias does? Your bias in favour of Nippard made you go right away on writing a comment without checking the at least 5 times that I have responded on the same thing. It also made your common sense leave the chat. Same thing happened with Nippard when did his video. Here is my previous response to this: I think you need to rethink what you wrote here. The Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE) is a way to rate how hard you feel an exercise. In his video Jeff clearly said that he has a lower RPE with sumo and for this reason he lifts more to have the same RPE with conventional. But this is exactly the point. If on the same weight you have different RPE then it means the one is easier that the other. That’s the whole point of the debate. I don’t know why he added that to his video because it’s exactly like saying that “yes sumo is easier indeed”. And of course you can’t say what he said. it’s like saying “close grip bench press isn’t harder than wide grip because I lift more repetitions on the close grip and make it equal” 🤦‍♂️ The whole debate is if you can lift the same weight easier with sumo than with conventional, didn’t Jeff admit that with what he said there?

[@wesvond.2758]

@@YiannisChristoulas wow mate, its so personal with you. I am not going to read the thread of comments bro, I was here to watch a video and leave a comment. Which is what I did. Such a long winded response and talk of bias, you lost me in the the first few sentences. See ya dude and good luck with your channel especally if this is the way you respond.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@wesvond.2758 So no response regarding your argument? How strange

[@wesvond.2758]

@@YiannisChristoulas like I said did not even get to a 1/4 of your response, then lost interest, it’s called KZbin not YouComment. No need to respond my initial comment stands buddy, you are suppose to be the professional. You have good one. I know everything I need to know from this channel by just watching that 1 clip.

[@wesvond.2758]

@@YiannisChristoulas by responding like this ”oh god, do you see what bias does? Your bias….“ to my initial query you told me everything I needed to know and I did not even bother to read whatever you wrote further. Good luck mate and fyi I am not biased you just labeled me for no reason. Bye…

[@adamlucas4753]

Wait, so if a shorter athlete lifts the same weight a shorter distance, they aren't taking advantage of their physiology but "cheating". But, regardless of the height lifted, if the taller lifter plants their feet at the exact same width as the shorter lifter its not fair because it's a mechanical disadvantage to them even though it's the exact same barbell, plates, and foot placement? Huh. The deadlift isn't a contest to lift to a specific height. The amount of joules may matter in the course of training and diet and nutrition, but when it comes to the lift itself a lockout is a lockout, the plates are the plates, and height doesn't matter.

[@davidarieli1924]

If sumo deadlift is easier, that just makes it a better deadlift. The entire point of a deadlift is to squeeze as much leverage out of your body as possible to lift a weight off the ground. Neither conventional or sumo deadlifts take a single muscle through a full range of motion. So if sumo does that better, sumo is just superior.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

What about strength and hypertrophy of the glutes, hamstrings and lower back muscles?

[@davidarieli1924]

@@YiannisChristoulas then both sumo and conventional are not ideal. They take zero muscles through a full ROM. If you want glute bias, RDL. If you want hamstring bias, SLDL. Both of these are just as good for erector strengthening as conventional deadlift.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@davidarieli1924 so full range of motion is needed to increase strength and hypertrophy?

[@davidarieli1924]

@@YiannisChristoulas To increase it most efficiently for time spent in the gym, absolutely. Partial reps if taken to failure or near failure will still stimulate growth and neural adaptations, sure. But just not as well as full ROM. I can see partials being useful after reaching mechanical failure to get extra stimulus.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

@@davidarieli1924 ok so a couple of questions on that. What are the evidence behind what you propose? I am very flexible, for me a dip squat is not full range of motion for any of my muscles/joints, does this mean that the squat is not ideal to increase strength for me? Or even more, on the leg extensions machine that the range is far less, do you think that it is not a good exercise to increase hypertrophy on the quads? If so, which exercises you think are better for that purpose?

[@theinfjgoyim5508]

Sumo is a dead PULL not a deadlift. End of story. It is not the same concept as a close and wide grip bench press. A deadlift you are lifting the bar and I sumo you are pulling. Completely different. So yeah you are wrong bud.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

If it’s a Pull, maybe then it shouldn’t be included in Dead-LIFT competition. You took the time to write your opinion, but not the time to justify what you claim. Congratulations, you are a part of the 99,9%.

[@AhmedMohamed-wu8dp]

Amazing as usual 😉❤️👍

[@YiannisChristoulas]

Thanks for the support Ahmed!

[@alpan2000]

thank you

[@YiannisChristoulas]

💪

[@mohammadalirashed3103]

2:04 That's where you go wrong. Jeff already addressed this point in his video, he said you can offset the difference in range of motion by increasing the weight, and that generally he is able to lift more with sumo than conventional.

[@YiannisChristoulas]

oh god... but this is exactly the point my friend, isn't it? If you can lift more weight with one against the other then this is it. The whole debate is about whether you can lift more weight with sumoi easier than with conventional. I don't know why Nippard said this in his video, it's an argument for the opposite side.

[@jacksonmccoy775]

I think your first point is very fair, it simply does require less force per rep. However your second point is a bit of a strawman. Many sumo deadlifters don't have an incredibly wide stance, some even have a particularly narrow sumo. Still some good points were made