Is Taigi ‘low class’? Humor, colonialism & language identity in modern Formosa w/ Hôa & Jesus

[@slte.0]

我認為討論的核心有兩個： 1. 「台灣/Taiwan」是什麼意思？ Taywan/Tâi-uân的字源是阿美語中，用來指當時台南地區「講這種語言的人」，不是指「這個島的名字」，所以也許對講Taigi/Holo（台語）的人來說，不需要因為Taiwan的詞義現今擴大為這個島了，就得讓出Taiwan這個字。 《阿華師的觀點》 對有些資深講Taigi/Holo的人，他們會說「台灣人講台語」也可能是源於這層意思，像是他們會說「台灣人、客人⋯⋯」。 《阿勇的觀點》 但不可否認的現實就是現在的語言用法，不管是不是台語人，Taiwan這個字是用來描述這個島，甚至是包含外島的國名的。 不管講原住民語、客語、英語、越南語、西班牙語的人，對土地認同，都想要叫自己、也應該能叫台灣人（Taiwanese），成為所謂「台灣文化」一分子。 《黑素斯的觀點》 這兩個都是事實，也是很重要、需要釐清的矛盾，所以對於不會說台語的Taiwanese，我們到底要叫什麼？ 《阿勇的觀點》 對這個問題的解答，阿勇覺得像Formosan/福爾摩沙就是最接近的，不管講華語、西班牙語，大家是講不同語言的福爾摩沙人。 阿華師的另一個想法是Taywan/Tâi-uân這個字留給講Taigi的人，ㄊㄞˊㄨㄢ就給ㄊㄞˊㄨㄢ人。 但阿勇和黑素斯可能比較難懂這個方式，因為如果只是用不同語種的發音分，一翻譯就撞到了。 但也不是很重要，阿華師感覺只想讓黑素斯聽懂，所以這麼說。 然後我覺得黑素斯後面也了解了，但也帶出另一個相關難題，就是⋯⋯ 2. 「現在『台灣人』三個字偏偏不只是指『講這種語言的人』，島上其他不會講台語的人可不可代表『台灣文化』？」 （除了殖民者以外）每個人都懂要包容、尊重多元，但Tâi-uân文化曾經被殖民者血洗，是事實。 平行時空假如西班牙被美國殖民，教美語、學美國歷史，然後殖民了幾十年後說「現狀就這樣，繼續會怎樣？現在的西班牙就是說英語的地方啊」⋯聽起來不過分嗎？ 如果一個原先就存在的語言文化，被外來/後來文化壓迫，那反對那個語言也是剛好？ （因為我覺得他們三人到最後也沒有完全講通，這裡加一點個人註解： 就像大家想保護本土麻雀，會說外來種八哥是敵人，有些人甚至會覺得，八哥如果侵略到原生動物棲地，人道毀滅剛好⋯⋯？） 如果當台灣人，應該至少講一種本土語言，Mandarin是近期外來的兇猛外來種。 《阿華師》 這樣種心情是可以理解，但現實就是，如果我們直接抱著排斥的態度，可能以加特隆尼亞人的情況借鏡，就有點像現在台灣，不會說台語的Taiwanese會在一些時候覺得被標籤、差別待遇，影響到復興台語的興趣，而且也很無辜。 《黑素斯》 （個人註解：我們如果把八哥當敵人，看到八哥就厭惡，出生在台灣的外來種八哥也很無辜，他出生就在這裡了。把八哥替換成Mandarin甚至說Mandarin的人，也是一樣意思。） 其實這一些都是事實、現實，推動台語保留上要順利，其實不管你情緒多委屈，理由多悲情和正義，用正面的態度推動才會有用；但反過來說，也不能仗著既定現實，以及文化會漸漸改變，就跟致力保育本土文化的人說：「阿可是就被消滅了啊？你就多努力講啊」如果是自然滅絕就算了，但不是，是被暴力消弱的啊⋯⋯所以台語需要政府給予至少和其他語言同等的資源。 要知道，台灣人有很多人因此不能跟自己的家人流利地溝通，也不認識自己的文化。 《阿勇》 總結共識： 1. 我們是不是可以先認同，既然Taywan/Tâi-uân這個字，是跟講Taigi/Holo的族群名稱借來的，那他們不放棄這個名字，叫自己台灣話、台灣人一點都不為過？ 2. 推動文化保存的過程中，要正向鼓勵，也要顧及不同年代移民的感受，才能促成這件事更多人加入，更可能成功。 以上都是我個人解讀，不是他們三位的原話。討論中有非常多類比、舉例，值得大家從頭到尾聽一次。 - 最後補充一點我個人想法： 看完這些討論，個人最大心得就是了解到，除了名稱上的考究，最大的衝突點經常是，很容易把「語言」、「文化認同」和「該怎麼救本土語言文化」全混再一起討論。 要解決衝突的第一步就是，大家都要對彼此、對這個島的歷史更了解，思緒清晰才能再繼續講下去，不然還沒到核心，半路就吵起來了。 另外有個想法是影片中沒有提到的，也是我自己的想法，我希望「是什麼人」真的不需要用語言定義，新移民不需要選擇Mandarin或其他當地語言，或是一定要學所謂的「本土語言」而Mandarin不可以。 我希望新移民可以不學任何新語言，講自己的語言，直接能當福爾摩沙人。 因為我們現在認為的本土語言，大部分過去某一個時間可能都是外來語。 學個當地語言是一個誠意問題，但不需要是一個必要的條件，學習新語言本來就不是簡單的事。 認同這個土地文化的，都是自己人。 不管這個島上講不同語言的人們，要怎麼稱呼，是要叫Taiwan人、還是福爾摩沙人都好，大家可以再討論就好， 重點是，講Taigi/Holo的Tâi-uân人至少不應該被剝奪叫自己Taigi（台語）的權利。 I’ｍ a Taiwanese Formosan, a Taiwanese language learner.

[@AiongTaigi]

多謝汝靴用心共咱个論點整理出來！ Oàn-thàn 無字幕 ê 先看 chia XD

[@kindahomeylike]

感謝用心整理！🙇

[@林慧惠-c9j]

謝謝你！感恩🙏

[@ALIBAMBOO]

維基百科：「臺灣」名稱來自於南臺灣原住民族西拉雅族的台窩灣社（Tayouan），此名稱位置即現今臺南安平地區附近一帶[16]；一說為源自於大武壠族的台窩灣社（Taiouwang），屬於大武壠頭社的附屬部落之一[17]。荷蘭人來臺時便隨此名稱呼，並音寫成Teyoan、Taioan、Teyouvan、Tayouan、Taiyouan、Taiyouhan[18]，來墾的閩南人依閩南語譯寫為漢字「大員（Tāi-uân）」、「大苑（Tāi-uán）」、「臺員（Tâi-uân）」、「大灣（Tāi-uân）」或「臺窩灣（Tâi-o-uân）」等名稱，最後在清治時期定名為「臺灣（Tâi-uân）」直到現在。

[@slte.0]

@@ALIBAMBOO 感謝補充，其實我用詞不精確，不該說「字源」。「字源」其實不好考證，阿華師的意思應該是：Taywan是阿美語中，是「講這種語言的人」，這個語言證據告訴我們，這個詞在過去不是指「這個島的名字」。

[@StanfromPoland]

Awesome video! Taiwanese is a beautiful language, sad to see it slowly vanishing (ROC’s responsibility is pretty big here); we have to do more to protect it. I agree with Jesus on one thing, that he also mentioned in his video, there should be more popular culture based on Taiwan’s history and Taiwanese language; it’s not only government’s responsibility to protect this part of Taiwanese culture, but also the responsibility of all the people that love and care for this beautiful country. Ta-ke ka-iû！

[@AiongTaigi]

Exactly! Really hope more Taiwanese *people* will get involved. The ROC created the situation, but they are in no position to fix it. Only Taiwanese people can do that.

[@streetking1110]

でもアメリカが責任を負う必要あるよ

[@familystones]

Thank you

[@familystones]

@@AiongTaigi TRUE

[@chimeiwangliang]

@@AiongTaigi I agree with both of you and I also wish there was some encouragement from the government for foreigners to pick up Taiwanese. For example, I can’t move to Taiwan to study Taiwanese, but I could if I wanted to study mandarin. So instead of applying for a ‘study Taiwanese visa’ I have to find another way to be able to move and immerse myself in the culture. Because of covid, many of us (including myself work remotely), so the only barrier for us in this situation is the legality of our stay. I am aware, that studying mandarin would be more helpful for most foreigners, but there are cases like myself who studied the language abroad or in the past, so signing up for another mandarin course in my case would be more like pretending that I’m studying, where at the same time I really want to learn Taiwanese - but that’s not an official option. That being said, I’m really glad we have you Aiong, without your channel I would be totally clueless where to start!

[@maddiechen6670]

看到三人同框交流，心裡很開心，因為你們都是真心愛台灣的人！

[@維騎]

阿勇 阿華師 黑素斯都很棒~ 台語文化要傳承下去

[@googlefb.youtube3171]

真的很喜歡阿勇台語這個頻道

[@RrGueti99scnbtRutsch]

我看黑素斯的影片起碼有五年了，幾個月前才開始看阿勇和阿華的影片。說真的我沒辦法詳細打出一篇長篇文字詳細描述對你們兩方的看法，只能簡單說，台語很美我贊同支持要推廣，你們三人的頻道我會持續訂閱觀看分享。😍

[@mystupidx]

這三位都是熱愛台灣的青年，很榮幸跟你們活在同一個年代！

[@minchen5854]

總算等到了，三大偶像合體

[@sss1357924680]

這是我這輩子最想聽懂但最有難度的一支影片

[@AiongTaigi]

看咁有人卜整理內底幾个重點寫落來。 歹世！

[@slte.0]

我有幫大家整理討論重點，可以找我的留言看看。 我有替大家整理chi̍t-kóa討論重點 會使chhōe我ê留言khoaⁿ-māi

[@juliatang353]

@@AiongTaigi “卜”是啥意思？阿哪發音？

[@AiongTaigi]

@@juliatang353 卜 BEH / BOEH (= want) 例「汝卜去叨位？」 ji.taioan.org/gisu/?n=45

[@juliatang353]

@@AiongTaigi 多謝 🙏

[@donutzebra914]

I'm a Taiwanese American who's learned both Mandarin and Taiwanese as foreign languages. My parents first taught me Taiwanese so that I could speak to my grandparents, and they also sent me to Chinese school to learn Mandarin. During childhood, I regularly spoke English, Mandarin, and Taiwanese with my parents. Today, I think my Mandarin is a little better than my Taiwanese. I think Jesus has the right to call himself Taiwanese, having moved to Taiwan, learned about its culture and history, and learned Mandarin. For better or for worse, Mandarin is currently the predominant language in Taiwan, so from a foreigner's perspective, when moving to Taiwan, it simply makes more sense to learn Mandarin. Especially given how difficult it already is to learn Mandarin as a native Spanish speaker, you can't expect foreigners to care about preservation of local languages when their primary concern is, understandably, fitting in to the current culture in Taiwan. I agree that more effort needs to be made to preserve the Taiwanese language, and there should be Taiwanese kindergartens and Taiwanese schools available. But, this effort needs to be led by native Taiwanese people themselves. I think it's unfair to berate foreigners moving to Taiwan for only learning Mandarin and not learning Taiwanese when you don't put the same expectation on native Taiwanese people. I can't speak for him, but I have a feeling that Jesus (understandably) believes the struggle for local Taiwanese language preservation is a noble one, but at the end of the day, it's not his fight as a "foreigner." It's native Taiwanese people's fight. I could see Jesus maybe learning Taiwanese some day because it's interesting, but I don't see him ever refusing to speak Mandarin or discouraging other Taiwanese people from speaking Mandarin. Because to him, it would be very uncomfortable for a white man to turn to a native Taiwanese person who only speaks Mandarin and say "This is how you become more Taiwanese." He'd understandably think to himself "Who am I as a white person to try to tell the large numbers of Taiwanese people who only speak Mandarin that they're not Taiwanese enough?" It would probably seem arrogant to him. I feel Jesus's perspective is sort of similar to my own, in that we're both Taiwanese (in different ways) but still feel like outsiders. My parents taught me Taiwanese so that I could speak with my grandparents, but when I have kids, at this point, my priority (after teaching them English of course) would be to teach them Mandarin so that they could speak with my parents, who are native Taiwanese speakers but speak fluent Mandarin. I'd teach them Mandarin instead of Taiwanese because the vast majority of Taiwanese people currently speak Mandarin much better than Taiwanese. Again, I believe Taiwanese language preservation is important, but, like with Jesus, it's not my fight as a Taiwanese American either. The responsibility falls on native Taiwanese people. If in the future, native Taiwanese people are successful in making Taiwanese the predominant language in Taiwan, then I'll most likely prioritize teaching my future kids Taiwanese instead of Mandarin.

[@AiongTaigi]

With you almost up til the very end. "I'll do it when they do it" is not the way to fix anything. We start with ourselves, or we never go anywhere.

[@Tiun_Ek]

不知不覺一次看完了!! 很驚訝我的觀點跟阿勇最接近的! 感覺這個對談跟我想的結果是差不多的 黑素斯舉的例子表面看是類似但實際上滿不同的 看得出阿華想表達什麼，我們那種壓抑真的不是用話語就能讓對方感受的 何況短短兩小時，如果能多多長期交流就好了 但我不會討厭黑素斯，因為他不討厭台灣

[@susu24vg]

在台灣的外國人要接觸台語真的很容易，中華民國在台灣控制70多年

[@m54akliao]

我很開心看到你們能夠當面分享彼此角度

[@Formosanana]

太酷了 阿華師堅持不說華語 才能引起這樣的討論 不然台語永遠沒有機會被看見！！！

[@強化香蕉]

但他說英文

[@sss1357924680]

@@強化香蕉 不懂，阿華師因為華語不斷在迫害其他本土語言所以堅持不說華語， 這跟他英語的關聯性是什麼？如果說今天英文也迫害到了本土語言，那提出這個質疑我覺得合理，但現況不是這樣，所以我不太了解為什麼你要提出”但阿華師說英文”這個回應， 如果黑素斯會說台語，那問題直接解決，數學的連集套用在這個案例，三人共同可以溝通的就只剩下英語了，不用英語要如何繼續討論下去？

[@Formosanana]

@@強化香蕉 因為Jesus不會講台語阿 配合他 不然Jesus自己一直問好了 做人的禮貌XD

[@強化香蕉]

@@Formosanana 那就對了，語言是拿來溝通的，堅持不說華語卻還是需要用其他語言與人溝通，為的是什麼？讓對方了解自己所要表達的意思，那今天如果他遇到只聽得懂華語不懂台語的人怎辦？比手語還是乾脆不溝通了？？倡導台語文化我很贊同，因為我也是以台語為主要語言，但是他堅持不說華語這種方式邏輯本身就有問題，還有，另一個阿勇師吧，他用台語的說法以中文字打出來回覆我，我說台語四十幾年了，還是看不太懂，大概好像叫我不想看就不要看吧，前面的我真的有看沒有懂，那這是溝通方式嗎？簡單兩句話讓人猜半天，再強調一次，語言和文字是溝通的工具，堅持那沒意義的東西能表達什麼？？方向根本就是錯的！

[@Formosanana]

@@強化香蕉 華語迫害台語的前提，如果你的在這裏的討論不先確立，那麼便不符合阿華師的理念。我支持他的理念就這樣。你可以不支持。

[@ancestral_lingo]

As a native Hokkien speaker from Malaysia, after I learn about the history of Mandarin supremacy, I only think that Tâi-gí, Hakka, Taiwanese aboriginal languages are part of Taiwanese. Mandarin is not!

[@Adesilas]

Sean, I totally agreed with you. Likewise I'm a native Hokkien speaker from Singapore. Younger Singaporean (Chinese) are no longer able to speak their respective dialects and lost their identity. Mandarin has eroded this.

[@Liliquan]

That’s rather prejudiced. Hokkien came from China just like Mandarin. It’s not fair to discriminate against Mandarin because some speakers in the past tried to suppress “native” languages. Just like it’s not fair to discriminate against Japanese because Japanese speakers also did the same thing.

[@honka4ever]

@@Liliquan You do not know enough about the history of Taiwan, and your logic is illogical.

[@willywonka4340]

This is a great topic that rarely gets discussed, anywhere (even in Taiwan), out in the open (in any form of media) that I'm aware of! Thanks for bringing this out into the open. Fun fun topic 😆

[@caroljyangify]

I really appreciate this conversation and thank all three of you for taking the time to really try to dig into this. It's rare to see people try to reconnect in person (and live, and unedited too!) over an online dispute, so it's cool to see it happening this way. I'm currently living in Taiwan (moved here last year), and I was born and raised in the US, learning/integrating more Taiwanese into my life. I identify as Taiwanese American, though I didn't really start identifying this way until college/after college. Identity and culture is so so nuanced and context-specific! Personally, my identity and sense of culture and family and history has shifted so much over the course of my life too. That's all to say that these conversations are tricky to have. We each bring different definitions of "culture" and then filter all our own individual experiences through them to converse with others. I particularly appreciated A-Hôa introducing the critical context of history and colonization to this conversation. I often think that people who feel "some people can't take a joke" are usually not being malicious in their dismissiveness, but lack some understanding of how deeply painful, sensitive, and hurtful (historically, often!) something might be. This is especially common for people who come from different backgrounds or "cultures," which totally makes sense! We can't expect each person to understand the nuance of every other culture, so in my mind, it's really about how open people are to sharing about their own culture and how open others are to learning and understanding it. So, I'm grateful that A-Hôa brought up the history of Taiwanese language suppression and "dirty language" propaganda because I do believe it is an important reason for why this online conflict became such a conflict. And I'm grateful that Jesus showed up in this conversation, and hope that he was able to hear what A-Hôa was sharing. Thanks Aiong for facilitating!

[@bernardlokman5442]

The same problem happens in Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia. Many Chinese Indonesians have lost the old lingua franca, Babah Hokkien/creole malay hokkien, still spoken by Medan Chinese. Nowadays, Gua/I and Lu/you is a common lingo spoken by everyone, as well as a lot of the foul words and also anything that has to do with money, creating the stereotype that Chinese are greedy and puts profit and capitalism above anything. Once I served a young lady who spoke creole hokkien to her friends in Melbourne and I greeted her in the creole hokkien that we shared. She said in Indonesian ‘omg it’s so repulsive, let’s not speak hokkien’. A lot of stereotypes are made about this creole hokkien speakers as fraud, cheater, low class, peasants, greedy, stingy, despite the fact that it was THE common language, and it WAS the language passed down by the pioneer of chinese diaspora in malay archipelago and nusantara. I feel so angry everytime they use Hokkien words in such crude sounds. They think they own the language just because they are chinese. It irritates me when they spoke to me in Indonesian but refer me as ‘ko’/brother. It supposed to be respectful but felt like a backstab, because they pretend as if they are speaking the tongue of the old migrants. Most made the excuse of being patriotic, nationalist or assimilation. But in reality it was either systemic repression or their ancestors came quite late during the zhonghua movement and never learned the tongue of the old guests, yet have the nerve to patronise speakers of the old tongue

[@firstnamelastname6071]

The situation in Indonesia is crazy, I think in Malaysia we at least don't tend to have this mindset that Hokkien sounds "low class"

[@卯月-t8c]

i've really learnt so much from this video... really reshaped a lot of my ideas on the various topic you three have discussed. i especially loved that anecdote aiong you shared about your bicycle being painted green :(. i'd would love to see more content like this!

[@arinaina4262]

This is a nice meeting to accumulate different view points, then let every participant make his statement about what is Taiwan, Taiwanese and Taiwanese languages. I don't express the opinions of mine this time, but l would like to encourage Aiong to do some more like this.

[@AiongTaigi]

Thanks!

[@xyzabc9527]

三位都很不錯呦！ 😄👍

[@Jsiann]

This totally is worth to become a series on its own!! In next episode you need to invite another voice (a female voice maybe?) I can watch another 5 hours of discussion. ;-) Well done, guys!

[@domoto919]

看到三位同框給👍

[@lienelsa175]

Great conversation!!

[@hsiehtheresa7215]

讚讚讚!!! 馬上來支持各位

[@cogitocorgi]

黑素斯 makes so much sense! I can't agree with him more. I also had a similar conversation about languages and culture identity with my friend who is Spainard. He also brought up family of his father side who is from Basque country of Spain, during the dictatorship under Franco, so and so was banned, etc. For 4 years I lived and worked in the South of France and Spain (Catalunya and Andalusia) and I understand the difficulty as an English speaker living in the Romance languages speaking Countries. I totally support Taiwanese self-empowerment, but we can also try and learn to respect the difference and appreciate the diversity, be mindful and be less judgemental. Love a conversation and debate like this. ¡Ánimo! Great channel too!!!

[@方玲蓉]

阿勇：誠懇感謝你的安排！ 感謝主！

[@Diewlilaumu]

Thank you for putting aside your previous differences and egos and engage in an open and honest conversation. We live in a polarising world and people refuse to hear each other out. Once you sit down and engage in an honest conversation then we realize we are all not so much different. ( as long as you have a nice soul ;) )

[@AiongTaigi]

Agree 100%. Polarization is real, but not deep. It's almost always just surface-level misunderstandings.

[@casey2888]

很喜歡像這樣理性的討論，我也完全理解雙方的立場，我是看楊麗花歌仔戲長大的南部人，深刻感受到阿華師的anxious, 真心覺得他的努力很了不起。我也像黑素斯一樣在非母語國家住很多年，理解他的角度和想法，真心覺得黑素斯也很理性包容。 我覺得黑素斯用英語表達深度想法有那麼點吃力，阿勇英語語速很快，很多台灣聽眾可能聽不懂，如果考量聽眾的需要應該破例一次用華語溝通，但這大概不是重點，既然三位同意用英語其他人也不方便説什麼，你們順利溝通解釋了就好。

[@阿謝-glitter4]

那個，應該是黑素斯的英文不好，因為他發音不標準，說話又卡卡的，聽了比阿勇的英文更吃力 阿勇的英文至少很流利

[@MandyLee1124]

我是覺得可以用台語語詞翻譯，我們可以看慢速的

[@honka4ever]

@@阿謝-glitter4 黑素斯英文有更多的口音，但他的英語表達能力強過阿華，這就變成了不對等的辯論。

[@misspeggyfox7177]

很建議這個影片可以再剪成另外一個短版，這樣方便更多人觀看～

[@AiongTaigi]

無要緊。我無愛決定別人看華啊甲 Jesus 講叨一部份。全程箱長加治跳來跳去着好。

[@gyanfranciskumar]

A-Hua leave that poor pillow alone for f*ck's sake😂😂😂

[@willy70114]

我還沒辦法用台文寫字。聽完整篇我覺得黑素斯還是不清楚阿華師的點。或許需要真的了解一些歷史跟現實台灣的處境，才能明白台語的現況。還有一個重點是台語污名化，我覺得討論中著墨比較少，這才是整件事情的原因。

[@阿謝-glitter4]

我覺得要一個西班牙人能理解台灣歷史，實在是太難了 他畢竟沒有在台灣讀過國高中 （這是在反諷黑素斯啦，不要誤會

[@sophiali5862]

我也覺得阿華師和阿勇是知識型的推廣台語，而黑素斯不是很了解台灣的歷史，所以黑素斯可能比較開玩笑，但是阿勇嚴肅的知識分子和阿華師帶有挽救台語的使命感，自然起衝突。我是支持阿勇和阿華師的。我們需要更多把台語當成嚴肅而知識性語言的居民人民，這樣才能推廣更多的人去說台語。深入了解台語背後代表的意義非常重要。因為，所有認同漢文化的人，都應該認同台語。認同台語，使用中文漢字（即使台語漢字）並不與文化認同衝突，大家需要了解這一點。

[@ergouzian]

It's so cool and I appreciate Jesus's gesture humbly sharing his experiences and his point of views. And I feel extremely sorry for his experience got his mandarin corrected by this Chinese girl. Lately I've been working with a few Chinese teachers from Taiwan teaching Chinese in Vietnam. They shared with me that at times they got challenged just because their Chinese 'sounds different'. So they decide to include everything: simplified or traditional Chinese, Pinyin or Zhuyin, '视频' or '影片'. There's no right or wrong. Our highest priority is to help the students with the tool itself so that they can use it to understand the world in our language. I speak Shanghainese and I particularly agree with the point you made to protect Taiwanese. These dialects (or languages in your point of view) are never just curse words. It's good that people who are not familiar with Taiwanese found it is fun and down-to-earth but Taiwanese (or in this case Shanghainese, Cantonese, Hakka etc.) is always more than that. It can be elegant and classy. I am happy that you made this video to raise public awareness. It's said that Taiwan would turn into an English-Mandarin 'bilingual nation' by 2030. I genuinely think more of the nationals should join in the discussion.

[@TheAkiene]

Be proud as a Taiwanese! 台灣是個自由之地，有各種不同社會背景的人同住在這島上、黑素斯講的那些台語是曰常可聽到的、並沒有歧視之意。黑素斯在台灣生活多年似乎也察覺這氛圍。

[@falseworld24]

這就是為什麼媒體人及公眾人物需要謹言慎行，因為他們的影嚮力是無限的大，可能因為一句話，引起無法承受的後果。會被人模防及學習。拍片寫稿時本應多思考其後的影響。

[@slte.0]

有英文字幕了喔！

[@AiongTaigi]

Hĕ, sī án-chóaⁿ chit-má ū?

[@slte.0]

@@AiongTaigi Khó-lêng sī Google kám-kak chit phìⁿ chiâⁿ tiōng-iàu, tio̍h kóaⁿ-kín kā jī-bō͘ seⁿ chhut-lâi. M̄-koh Google jīn-ûi “啥洨” sī “Sunshine” ê ì-sù.🥲🤣

[@chihchensophialee2281]

I grew up in the era that 有才情e讀冊人 and 仕紳會吟詩作對; I have not extinguished my dream of learning 南管 someday (my first retirement plan for sure if not earlier). To counteract the stereotype associated with the a certain social class (we all know that a language should be neutral), I am looking forward to seeing films/TV episodes such as 湯德章傳, 林茂生傳, etc.

[@stan0122]

三位超強的

[@cs0312000]

A-hôa-sai perfectly explain the situation of Taiwanese. And thank you all to have this great conversation. And I agree that Mandarin only speakers, even against their so-called "Taiwanese identity", they are killing all native languages at the same time. When most foreigners first encountered Mandarin, a language Taiwanese are forced to speak, and they can get by their day to day life only in Mandarin, or even worse they just speaking English only. And that is why they have hard time to feel what Taiwanese native speakers feel when Taiwanese been making fun of. Taiwanese people feel upset when they didn’t feel respected, and some people may react in anger and want foreigners to leave. And here comes the argument of xenophobia and racism. I don't think local people have the responsibility to convince foreigners to speak local languages. If you don't speak in local languages, then you of course are considered not local people. And you have to live with that fact. A person only speaks Mandarin with Chinese ancestor can call oneself Taiwanese as he/she want, but Taiwanese have choice to decide if that person is a Taiwanese or not.

[@cs0312000]

If a people is oppressed at their home, a movement of Taiwanese language is a cultural movement and have the property of political and national movement as well.

[@AiongTaigi]

Exactly. Life is perfectly easy without ever using anything but Mandarin. Even English, for the most part. But it's pretty damn difficult if you try to do "Taiwanese only" like a-Hôa.

[@cs0312000]

@@AiongTaigi I don't live in Taiwan now, but I can imagine how hard it is to live a Taiwanese only life like A-Hôa. But I think if more people can do that, then there is hope for Taiwanese to live. Since I learned Taiwanese, I have been talking to my family, relatives and Taiwanese friends in Taiwan on SNS. I also write Taiwanese text in Hanji-POJ style so that even they don't know how to write can get what Taiwanese text looks like and guess the meaning of my messages. If I come back to Taiwan in the future, I would like to speak Taiwanese like I do now.

[@tsuze8243]

台灣母語在早期國民黨威權時代是被壓抑的，為了改造台灣人成為"中國人"，國民黨在學校禁講"方言"，老一輩人都有記憶那個講母語被罰錢或掛狗牌的日子。早期台灣的影藝電視、廣播與新聞媒體，絕大部分是操"國語"的中國殖民者所掌控，成為當時媒體文化發展的主流。在那個時期，相對於說國語的族群，說台語的族群的確被貶抑成欠缺文化水平。人們常可以在電視節目或電影情節上看見教育程度低或粗俗的人，幾乎等同於於說台語、或說台語粗話的人。台語原本是優雅的語言，卻被壓抑了超過了一世代(30年)，大部分年輕人早已無法說流利台語，更遑論優雅的台語。因而很多台灣年輕一代或外國人，常會誤以為說一些簡單台語粗話也是連結台灣本土的表現，這其實是對於台灣本土歷史不夠理解的現象。外國KZbinr在台灣發展，挑選一個親本土主題，像法國酷的芋頭、美國小貝的米漿等等，其實都無可厚非。但以"靠杯"(哭泣父親過世)、"三小"(這是什麼精液)等台語粗話來親近本土，其實就備受爭議了。

[@willywonka4340]

I have a quick-fix solution to this, only if young Taiwanese couples with kids are willing, before the ROC government steps in to remediate the problem (if ever, lol): Send the young ones to live with A-Ma and A-Gong down south! The younger, the better! 😆 Don't let them leave until they're in their teens when losing a learned language is less likely as the language learning center of the brain tend to retain it. I've been up and down the island and noticed the toddler-age kids that spoke fluent Dai-oan-wei were more common the further south you go from Dai-Bac. I recalled 5 years ago when riding the HSR to visit my relatives in Ga-gi from Dai-bac with my wife, there was a sweet little darling who spoke Dai-oan-wei mixed with Thickly accented Taiwanese Mandarin to her A-Ma. Other nearby passengers, and my wife included, were intrigued that a little girl speaks Dai-oan-wei fluently, as if it's not a normal thing to have, lol. Me? My view is that this is how it's supposed to be. I think it's right and proper as a parent to pass down your roots to your next generation; this applies to everyone, not just Taiwanese. JMO 🤷‍♂️😛. FWIW, my wife, a Taipei native, can understand Taiwanese but her verbal skills is laughable at best 🤦‍♂️🤣. She often gets mistaken as waishengren. She's 51 BTW 😆.

[@AiongTaigi]

Yes, "southerners" (who spend most of their time in Taipak) should get more quality time with their families back home, surefire way to improve Taigi ability!

[@anniejiajia]

阿華師的不耐非常明顯🤣🤣🤣

[@pdcockrum]

真的太明顯了！覺得有點堵心，阿華師一直都在想他什麼時候可以插嘴，沒聽黑索斯說的⋯⋯就是說他已經決定了，不能改變他的想法。真的很可惜！自己覺得這個題目很有趣，但這個影片沒討論得那麼好

[@jouwanog3977]

我一直要學有羅馬拼音文字來幫助我的台灣母語更進步，然後慢慢增加另一種母語幫助的文字語言。

[@游宗憲-l2h]

勇啊~翻譯字幕啦！聽某啦！

[@snowman7514]

From my understanding the paradox here is that, for people like Jesus, they want to "go soft", do it step by step, slowly. for people like A-Hôa, they want to "act now", its really not looking good rn, for any non-mandarin formosans. It seems that, on this seesaw, theres no middle point, "someone has to get hurt", its really sad but many issues are like this, the best way here, in my opinion, let everyone speak, anyone, make sure both these sides are well balanced, someone, sadly, will, get hurt, but before they do, they had the chance to debate, or even better, soften their situation. You can't make everyone happy, so here we are, at least making sure, no one's sad. phai^ seh goa chitma phah Taibun khah khunlam, bo sia sia^tiau hoo^h Goa jim ui, chitma bunte si hoo^, Jesus chit khoan ikeng tui Mandarin u jintong ah, in siu^ be "banban~a lai", tansi chhiu^ A-Hoa, bugi-chia, in siu^ be "lu kin lu ho", Taigi bo hite sikan hoo li banban~a lai, Formosa e gigian long bo sikan. Khoa^ khi lai lah, kanna sia^mih honghoat long be sai, "itteng u lang e siongsim", chite hoo^h, mah si... Na goa lai kong lah, goa jimui, siang ho e honghoat tio si, hoo takke long lai thoolun, soo u lang, i^chhia chit nng e ai u kangkhoan e leliong, tioh, itteng u lang e siongsim, tan si i msi bo hoat to soanchek, kholeng i ikeng u hoo chit e chengheng tui i khah ho ah. Bo kholeng takke long hoa^hi, che, tio si lan lai chia thoolun e goanin, hoo takke long thia^ tioh, chai ia^ patlang e sia^im, tio si kong, hoo takke mai chiani... anne kong, choatbong? desperate

[@AiongTaigi]

I've often heard (from Taioanese): "saying one thing in Mandarin means one less thing is being said in Taioanese". I think maybe I mentioned it in the video. But that's what you're pointing to, I think. It's zero-sum. There are only so many people and so many times they can talk. We can't all say (or write) everything twice (or 3 or 4 times), so we need to choose where to invest our time and energy. Mandarin is "the easy way" because of it's more-or-less universal reach (in Formosa). But if everyone takes the easy way, Taioanese (language AND culture, as they are bound) won't survive, and that's happening faster than people care to imagine.

[@Yamamotoseto]

You are both correct we would need Taiwanese kindergarten and also Taiwanese movies, music, dramas etc

[@familystones]

“Taiwanese people are not allowed to be Taiwanese.”

[@sino-tibeto-myanmar]

Taiwanese is literally "Min Language" from Southeastern China. Min is apparently the "closest" language group in China that descended from Old Sinitic. If you wanna hear the "closest" modern-day language that is "closest" to Tang Empire language (one of golden era in China history), just see Min / Fuk Kian / Taiwanese languages.

[@streetking1110]

語言確實沒有有不金錢高低之分，但是語言卻有分奴的程度分佈之分 像是使用中文的在某部分國家奴性都滿重的還會幫不合理的政權與制度說話，沒有像法國人或是日本碰到傷害自身權益就反抗的概念。 人家日本碰到底線或是覺得不合理的就造反直接不配合抗議不妥協法 法國也是如此只是法國比日本還更敢表達

[@FredHsu]

I can't believe I just listened to two hours of three people talking about what the word Taiwanese means. Thank you all three. I see that you all come from different points of view, and background. You are all appreciated. You know this already, from comments here. Dudes, human languages are ambiguous. And the same words get repurposed for overlapping sets of things. Perhaps we'll just let each other use a word to mean what they mean without worrying too much about it? I know sometimes such lax definitions won't do. But in most everyday situations, such ambiguities are probably OK. I'll just relate my own story to lend some color to what I just said. So one time I listened to two people argue on my train home from work. They were arguing about whether Long Island City was in New York City or on Long Island. You can look these up on Wikipedia, and you will see why I use this example. You see, Long Island City is a neighborhood in the county of Queens, which is a part of New York City. But Queens is physically a part of Long Island the island. Now, if you ask anyone in the greater metropolitan New York area, "where is Long Island?" on a map, they'll point to only Nassau and Suffolk counties, two out of four counties physically located on Long Island. When someone says "I live on Long Island", generally a native knows they don't live in Queens or Brooklyn, unless, of course, they have just newly arrived by boat (or elsehow). Back to the argument. I tried to explain to them how their confusion was similar to the cladist debate about birds and dinosaurs. You know, birds are really dinosaurs. But didn't dinosaurs go extinct already? So what gives? The root cause of the confusion is the same - the word dinosaur has been used for two overlapping sets of things.

[@AiongTaigi]

Language is ambiguous, to varying degrees, and depending on context. In general, one of the things we try to do through communication is to remove ambiguities by using precise language and detail. Here, we are essentially talking about political ideologies. That's quite a bit different than geographical place names (e.g. Long Island), and they have real consequences on large numbers of people. It's one thing to say: fine, everyone use terms how they like. But when people then take those terms and develop complex, powerful political, educational, and cultural institutions around them, having this kind of ambiguity is a very, very bad idea.

[@FredHsu]

​@@AiongTaigi - I agree that ambiguity is bad. That is the source of many human conflicts. But I also recognize that we are in a stalemate, and it is unlikely for changes to happen which break this stalemate. That won't stop some of us from trying to change the world, and I admire that too. I have my own windmill I tilt at, as you know. There are really three possible outcomes for this debate about "Taiwanese", to remove such ambiguities. #1, people agree to call the island Formosa, as you suggested, and as many have tried before you, especially from local Presbyterian churches. And by derivation people living on this island are Formosans. This removes the ambiguity between people of the island from people speaking a language. But you and I know this is unlikely to happen, especially when Taiwan is still undergoing an identity crisis in the world stage. Many a times folks in the states think I am from Thailand when I say Taiwan. On the other hand, perhaps adopting a completely new name (new to the world stage generation after WWII) is the way out of this identity crisis. That said, if I apply 阿華's logic, Formosa is also a word from a former colonial conquerer... So we find yet another word? Or #2, people agree to call the language Hokkien, Minnan, or Holo. And by derivation people speaking the language Kokkien人 (obviously won't work), Minnan人, or Holo人. Or we can stick to Taigi, and say Taigi人. How realistic is this? Will the people speaking Taigi even want to contemplate this choice? Then we are left with only #3, stalemate. Which was also the conclusion of the two hour candid discussion. People are going to agree to disagree, and continue to talk about it. But there won't be a real change.

[@MandyLee1124]

好想要有中文字幕啊！

[@AiongTaigi]

着算講有字幕、無中文字幕、咱只台干焦台 · 英二語文……

[@Masa-rl2fb]

慘 我以為會全程台語，但英文弱手聽的好吃力

[@AiongTaigi]

歹世！

[@susu24vg]

沒關係我也是聽不懂如同到了海外另一個國家，台灣確實很需要一個完全沒有中國文化的語言環境，我目前正在恢復父母親的語言，但還不會使用台羅拼音書寫

[@曾恩誌-y6n]

我聽得懂阿勇和阿華的部分，但黑素斯的部分就

[@juanhsieh7737]

黑素斯口音又沒到很重，聽過印度人講英文你就知道了.... 學了英文這麼久很懷疑是不是在講同一種語言。有聽沒有懂

[@曾恩誌-y6n]

@@juanhsieh7737 基本上印度要看地方，教育程度高或非印地人（不以印地語為母語的族群）。基本上英文多不會太難聽懂，偏英式口音加一些自己的口音。典型的印式英語是以印地語為母語，因為他們的母語是官方語言。基本上可能有些人就不會想把英文學好（不過高教育程度的人就不一定）。就像你到台灣的大學裡面可能找得到用流利英文對談，但如果在鄉下你確定每個人都能講英文嗎？

[@gracelan06]

Indeed, 早安is better than 早上好。

[@AiongTaigi]

Gâu chá! Even better ;)

[@YelDohan]

Indeed, 早上好 is 低俗 compared to 早安. Only uneducated people say 早上好. Students should be fined for saying 早上好.

[@binkoliaw2279]

Jesus’s Mandarin is way better than his English. But the discussion in between is still interesting.

[@kuoispretty]

我不覺得耶 有可能他影片裡說華語很常言不由衷的關係?

[@林慧惠-c9j]

聽得懂台語.中文但完全跟英語不熟！😩😩超慘聽不懂你們在講什麼又沒字幕，本來超期待你們三個人一起討論的影片😢😢😢

[@streetking1110]

而且英文的使用比比台語多XD

[@peanutworkshophuang5276]

練英聽的好影片，youtube按齒輪圖示可以放慢一句一句聽

[@slte.0]

我有幫大家整理討論重點，可以找我的留言看看。 我有替大家整理chi̍t-kóa討論重點 會使chhōe我ê留言khoaⁿ-māi

[@阿謝-glitter4]

因為黑素斯來台灣這麼久還不會講台語 這才是問題吧呵呵

[@xxngoo]

@@阿謝-glitter4 也不能這麼說 很多台灣人也不會講台語 他們比黑素斯更有環境優勢可以學 而且黑素斯來台灣就是為了學中文 當然黑素斯之後想學台語的話是最好囉👍🏻

[@歐秀純-m6f]

很多年前我就追蹤黑素斯了

[@areyouok-yes]

這是一個不對等的對話 使用自己不習慣的語言做辯論 就無法有準確、完整的說明 其實黑素斯Jesus可以使用中文 阿華師使用台語 而阿勇當作雙方的現場即時翻譯 這樣才能有對等、平等的討論 * 但黑素斯Jesus願意接受這樣的對話 也就是個人問題了

[@Yamamotoseto]

I agree with 阿華that to become Formosan u have to learn 1 other language other than mandarin. Since mandarin is killing the native languages. Look at Hong Kong it was a Cantonese and English speaking place. In a few years time Cantonese would die out. Only mandarin left.

[@Yamamotoseto]

I watched all 2 hrs of this I can go on. Damn I wanna be a youtuber

[@AiongTaigi]

It's a great "job" if you don't want to make any money 🤣🤣🤣

[@徐彗慈]

I was making the transcript of this video for academic use. Does anyone know at 1:44:07 what 阿勇 was saying about the Taiwanese language? "...in the one hand you say Taiwanese language including Hakka, including ??? and in the other..." This word appears again at 1:44:30.

[@a88413]

👍

[@fk1623]

我只能說認同台灣的就是台灣人 不管是何種"母語" 何種人種 這些都以不重要 畢竟這不是出生時可以決定的 但個人意識是自由的 這是你可以做決定的 如何解釋「台灣不曾屬於中國」！？ ft. 認了台灣祖先的法國學者高格孚（上） La vraie histoire de Taïwan !! ft. M. Corcuff (Vol. 1) kzbin.info/www/bejne/enTdk4ODeNeLr6M 以上這連結的 5:16

[@sgtan]

原罪tio̍h是「Tâi-uân」予清國、日本、中(華民)國放大號做in殖民地ê名；雖然tsit个島嶼對愈早ê Hô-lân佮Se-pan-gâ佇學術上mā歸類做"colony"，但實際上in只是kā tsia當做一个貿易據點niă，in是beh佮全世界包括在地儂貿易，並毋是beh統治規个島嶼，甚至為着beh佮在地交流koh用Lô-má字記錄、學習tsit片土地上ê語言。Hit時tsit tè島嶼tio̍h號做「Formosa」，一直kàu日本時代，國際上若提起tsit个島嶼猶原攏是叫「Formosa」，所以台語、客語、原住民族語攏是Formosan本土語言，以後beh自決建國ê時自決，國名上好tio̍h用「Formosa」，mài koh食台語族群豆腐。 ===Pe̍h-ōe-lī Tâi-pak kháu-im pán-pún=== Goân-chōe tio̍h-sī "Tâi-oân" hō͘ Chheng-kok, Japan, ROChina hòng-tōa hō-chòe in si̍t-bîn-tōe ê miâ; sui-liân chit-ê tó-sū tùi lú chá ê Holland kah Spain tī ha̍k-su̍t siōng mā kui-lūi chòe "colony", tān si̍t-chè-siōng in chí-sī kā chia tòng-chòe chi̍t-ê bō͘-e̍k kù-tiám niă, in sī beh kah choân-sè-kài pau-koat chāi-tōe-lâng bō͘-e̍k, pēng m̄-sī beh thóng-tī kui-ê tó-sū, sīm-chì ūi-tio̍h beh kah chāi-tōe kau-liû koh ēng Lô-má-lī kì-lo̍k, ha̍k-si̍p chit-phìⁿ thó͘-tōe siōng ê gú-giân. Hit-sî chit-tè tó-sū tio̍h hō-chòe "Formosa", it-ti̍t kàu Li̍t-pún sî-tāi, kok-chè siōng nā thê-khí chit-ê tó-sū iu-goân lóng-sī kiò "Formosa", só͘-í Tâi-gú, Hak-fa, goân-chū-bîn-cho̍k-gú lóng sī Formosan pún-thó͘ gú-giân, í-āu beh chū-koat-kiàn-kok ê sî, kok-miâ siōng hó tio̍h ēng "Formosa", mài koh chia̍h Tâi-gú cho̍k-kûn tāu-hū.

[@AiongTaigi]

It-ti̍t kàu Tiong-...-kok sî-tāi, kok-chè lóng kè-sio̍k ēng "Formosa".

[@sgtan]

@@AiongTaigi Ùi Tiong(-H-B)-kok tāi-koán Formosa & Pescadores khai-sí tio̍h kā chia tòng-chòe in ê si̍t-bîn-tōe hō-chòe "Tâi-oân-séng", liân-āu tó siōng ê to̍k-phài tio̍h hō͘ in khan-khì hoah "Tâi-to̍k", it-ti̍t kàu chit-má liân pún-thó͘ chèng-tóng chip-chèng, bô-lūn beh chiàⁿ-miâ phah Ò-ūn a̍h-sī hông-e̍k beh tùi choân-sè-kài gōa-oân mā lóng leh siá "Taiwan can help." Chit-má í-keng lú-lâi-lú-chōe lâng bōe-kì-tit Formosa chiah-sī siōng-chá hō͘ sè-kài se̍k-sāi lán ê chheng-ho͘, sīm-chì liân 1960 nî lán koh pat í "Formosa" chi miâ phah Lô-má Ò-ūn to m̄-chai.

[@AiongTaigi]

@@sgtan Hēⁿ ā. Che sī chìn-chêng ê thóng-tī-chiá kàu chín ê Tiong-...-kok chèng-hú ap-chè Tâi-oân-lâng, bô hō͘ Bí-lē Tó ê siā-hōe hó hó á hoat-tián ê chhiú-tōaⁿ. "Kan-na Tiong-...-kok (Ji̍t-pún...) chèng-hú khah ū hoat-tō͘ pó-chhî Bân Lâm lâng, Kheh lâng, Goân lâng chi-kan ê hô-pêng". Che hō chò "Divide and Conquer", Bí-lē Tó téng-koân ê lâng ài kak-chhéⁿ ·la.

[@YelDohan]

閩南佮客家漢人不是真正的「本土」，咱祖先嘛是殖民者，消滅了足濟平埔族語言，而且到這馬咱猶閣咧壓迫原住民的語言佮文化。兩相比較，雖然閩南語曾受打壓，但是台灣文化無受到傷濟干涉，媽祖婆、蚵仔煎、布袋戲攏閣佇遮。當咱說「台語、客語、原住民族語攏是Formosan本土語言」，這是佇咧否認咱漢人殖民、屠殺原住民的歷史。

[@sgtan]

@@YelDohan 汝先去瞭解「殖民」ê定義是sánn？！「閩南」是lín祖先，beh「bân」lín去「bân」mài牽拖着gún祖先，gún祖先ê時代佮在地平埔族基本上是自然交流，包括語言mā是，形成今á日ê台語。現此時koh leh壓迫原住民ê是華國ê華語殖民霸權，當汝一直用「閩南語」來稱呼台語，koh kā華語殖民手段寄禍予台語佮客語ê時，着是殖民政權koh leh打壓其他本土語言ê進行式，台語文化並無去傷害原住民ê文化（若硬beh拗無kâng族群之間發生過ê衝突，he是互相攏有），連台語beh消失ê危險程度比幾个族語ê級數koh較懸，華國tsit幾年對原住民族ê保障，甚至影響規个社會民眾對族語佮台語ê危機意識已經有明顯ê雙標準。華語殖民霸權是台語、客語、族語共同ê敵人，免想beh來tsia宣傳華國脫罪洗腦Formosan ê話術。

[@s942202]

我.....我需要字幕....（躺平 拜託啦youtube系統自動的應該也行？語速不快正確率應該蠻高的

[@s942202]

YT官方說明 1登入 KZbin 工作室。 2選取左側選單中的 [字幕]。 3按一下要新增字幕的影片。 4在「字幕」底下找到你想編輯的字幕，並按一下旁邊的「更多」圖示 。 5審核自動產生的字幕，並編輯或移除轉錄有誤的部分。 來源 support.google.com/youtube/answer/6373554?hl=zh-Hant#zippy=%2C%E5%9C%A8%E9%9A%A8%E9%81%B8%E5%BD%B1%E7%89%87%E4%B8%AD%E8%87%AA%E5%8B%95%E7%94%A2%E7%94%9F%E5%AD%97%E5%B9%95

[@AiongTaigi]

不知是影片箱長啞是省問題、不閣無 hit-lō 自動字幕个選擇。

[@無想轉生-n7t]

@@s942202 看到殘題字 就不想繼續操作了 😁

[@slte.0]

@@s942202 我有整理討論重點，可以找我的留言看看。

[@AiongTaigi]

只馬有 YT 自動字幕嗚。

[@kaiyitan761]

As my culture common sense. 殺洨 depends on how familiar with this person who you talk to. If he is a good friend, it usually shows doubts on something you said. Also, the tone and volume shows different emotions in every occasion. Contrarily, if you want to start a fight with someone this word is also powerful. In conclusion, know local culture and language first before you use it please.

[@taiwannumberone888]

At the same time it could be argued 台語 is a foreign language here. Taiwanese aboriginals could argue Hokklo language destroyed their language, then Japanese continued destroying their language. It’s hard to say what is actually (Taiwanese language). Mandarin serves as a lingua Franca in Taiwan. It’s also another language in what this society is, which is a multi layered society that has constantly added languages and developed them over a period of time.

[@AiongTaigi]

Your comments are a good list of "common misconceptions" that are basically wrong in most ways, but which most people accept because that's what they were taught. "Taiwanese" aboriginals? The word "Taiwan" (however you want to spell it - maybe "Tayouan" is better) in most indigenous languages refers to Tayouanese (= Taiwanese) speaking people & their language. It doesn't refer to the island, and certainly not to themselves (they have their own endonyms: Pangcah, Bunun, etc.) Usually, the people "arguing about rights to the name Taiwan" are Hak and Chinese (1949 migrants); less so for indigenous people. It's not hard to say what is "Taiwanese" - unless you take the Mando-centric view, which (purposely, IMO) conflates and confuses the meanings of various terms. Maybe we can say that it's not easy to know which way(s) to use the word/name "Taiwan" are appropriate given the widespread misunderstandings around these terms, but we can certainly understand them if we care to look. Mandarin is not "just another language". You missed the whole point of the discussion if that's what you took away from it. You're partially right about one thing, which is that Taiwanese speakers pushed indigenous people and languages out (and that is something they should deal with appropriately) but in fundamentally different ways to what Mandarin & the ROC have done in the past few decades. The Japanese actually did a fair bit for local languages, and today some of the best available resources for learners continue to be materials compiled during the Japanese era. It was really the KMT that went full force against local languages during Martial Law, but specifically against Taiwanese more than any other. The legacy of those ~40 years are what we see today.

[@taiwannumberone888]

@@AiongTaigi With regards to the Japanese point I actually feel this is a common misconception. The first 10-20 years of Japanese colonization I Taiwan was as almost as bloody and brutal as the KMT arrival and subsequent colonization and chineseification of the island. I think what is a critical point here is that no one is alive from that era. So in the minds of many of the older generation of “Taiwanese” people they only see positives associated with the the Japanese colonial period, as no one from that periods is still alive to be able to give accounts of what happened. You can argue this from many angles. There is a great piece written. You may have read it : idv.sinica.edu.tw/etwisdom/2009Web/PDF/2015Ethnic%20Diversity,%20Two-Layered%20Colonization%20and%20Modern%20Taiwanese%20Attitudes%20toward%20Japan.pdf Anyhow. I really think your channel is great and gives a lot to Taiwan 🇹🇼

[@AiongTaigi]

(I was talking specifically about JP colonial administration's treatment of indigenous languages, once they were established. No doubt the takeover itself was brutal.)

[@YelDohan]

​@@AiongTaigi Are Native Americans not entitled to call themselves Americans, because the word was originally owned by White Americans, while their endonyms are actually Navajo, Dakota, Cherokee, etc?

[@YelDohan]

@@AiongTaigi So I fact-checked your claim by looking up a dictionary (e-dictionary.apc.gov.tw/index.htm). The indigenous lanuages refer to the Hoklo people as: Mukan (Seediq), Pairang (Paiwan), Puut (Bunun), Kahat (Atayal), Klmukan (Taroko), Pakiisia (Kanakanavu), Kamsiyolang (Saisiya). The words Tayoan, Taiowan, Tayouan, Tayowan, Teyowan are not in the dictionary.

[@gracelan06]

Some people can speak with their grandparents in Taiwanese. I think 阿華師 can do a survey. i.e. How many percentage can't speak with their grandparents I Taiwanese?

[@AiongTaigi]

I think he has done a lot of surveys when giving talks at schools and stuff. Don't remember exactly the numbers, but best case is usually like 20% or something (in Tailam, for example). But these are surveys the schools themselves should be doing. Not KZbinrs.

[@Yamamotoseto]

Jesus is very pro Taiwan 阿華師shouldn’t be too harsh on him. Spain had a dictator as well Franco. He understands what’s it like to live under a dictatorship.

[@achu1951]

Chiok ū ì-sù ê thó-lūn, sui-bóng thiaⁿ-tio̍h chin chia̍h-la̍t! Kám-siā AIóng, AHôa kap He-so-suh.

[@丽施罗]

阿怠 台語正好 讚 讚 讚

[@丽施罗]

阿勇 台語正好 讚 讚 讚

[@shiami15]

Kám ē-sái khui chū-tōng Eng-bûn jī-bō͘?

[@AiongTaigi]

Góa ū chhì, m̄ chai sī án-chóaⁿ chit tè tiō bô hit lō kong-lêng.

[@AiongTaigi]

Chit-má ū chū-tōng CC. Chăng bô, taⁿ ū. Iáu m̄ chai sī án-chóaⁿ.

[@Yamamotoseto]

Taiwanese may lose their language but Taiwan democratized that’s our common treasure. We have to keep this

[@ALIBAMBOO]

會使溝通是好代誌。毋擱英語程度無夠好，愛tsit寡時間消化。

[@AiongTaigi]

豆豆仔看 ^_^

[@slte.0]

我有替大家整理chi̍t-kóa討論重點 會使chhōe我ê留言khoaⁿ-māi

[@ALIBAMBOO]

@@slte.0 多謝你，後來我大概聽有

[@ginichang8799]

阿華師ㄟ attitude 母係蓋厚，I don't understand阿華師到ㄉㄟ係 "呆丸狼" or "台灣人" or "Chinese". What 阿華師 is trying to say?! I think 阿華師 need to learn how to respect the other people first and then he can talk,otherwise 阿華師 just a guy who 玩文字遊戲，戲弄愛台灣文化的黑素斯。

[@mrgenetics4063]

Does Taiwanese have an actual character system of its own or does it borrow traditional chinese’s ?

[@AiongTaigi]

Has it's own characters. See ji.taioan.org for Taiwanese character information.

[@Yamamotoseto]

I disagree with 阿華when he mentioned 他不是台灣人 他是台灣郎。That’s like saying English is only for white Americans, British, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders or anglo saxons. Other people are not Americans etc. Most western countries are multi cultural now. France has Algerians, Germany has Turkish now Syrians.

[@楊微風]

是否有翻譯軟體，可以即時語音翻譯，我好想知道今天影片的全部內容

[@AiongTaigi]

翻譯軟體咁有可能翻譯只塊影片个內容？我想無省可能……

[@楊微風]

@@AiongTaigi 謝謝

[@chiurebecca2082]

Hope this video will have cc Because it is hard to pay attention to this video without CC😭😭😭

[@AiongTaigi]

Has YT automatic captions now.

[@chiurebecca2082]

@@AiongTaigi thank you:))

[@JeffChentingwei628]

1:43:16 1:56:40

[@Yamamotoseto]

早上好is 普通話。早安is 國語

[@Yamamotoseto]

阿勇u are right when Taiwanese said 台灣郎in Taiwanese it meant the 本省人 this is due to 228 when this group is mostly targeted. Emphasis on the word mostly since people now claims 外省人got killed also.

[@Yamamotoseto]

I’m Taiwanese a lot of people really do say 三小as hello cannot blame Jesus. He’s Spaniard

[@花君-n2e]

oops, I seem to hear that word start with a F-you from 黑素斯's mouth two or three times, do I not know if I am wrong to hear it? I am worry that you will be warned by YTB company if you don't mute the F-word.

[@AiongTaigi]

KZbin doesn't care.

[@花君-n2e]

@@AiongTaigi really,lol? I see

[@scarfacejosh123]

I mean, of course Jesus doesn't care about the hypothetical scenario... because it's hypothetical! Damn, I understand that he doesn't like speaking English, but his talking points show a lack of empathy for the plight of Taiwanese speakers and comes from an ROC centric narrative.

[@AiongTaigi]

Last point is key, I think. The ROC-centric narrative is really the biggest problem. And it is supported / strengthened through Mandarin (using ROC concepts like 閩南語, which is an ROC / Mandarin name, not a Taiwanese name). I hope more Taiwanese will realize the "obstruction" caused by Mandarin thinking, and maybe try Hoa's way of just speaking (and thinking in) Taiwanese.

[@scarfacejosh123]

@@AiongTaigi I'm definitely going to try that more. My girlfriend is from Zhejiang so I'm going to learn Wenzhonese because I feel like it's more connected to the actual culture of the people I'm around.

[@honka4ever]

@@scarfacejosh123 Look at Jesus' youtube channel, most of those videos have the republic of china's flag in the title, so is it any surprise? lol

[@Yamamotoseto]

Don’t feel bad Jesus. Most Taiwanese people never heard of taywan

[@ericpilson5337]

Hôa refuses to speak Chinese? What about those in Taiwan who don't speak English or Taiwanese? Jesús makes some great points about the purpose of language.

[@robertos4876]

Plenty of translators that can help, both electronic and human.

[@xha52v]

Any co-transcribing activity happening now?

[@robertos4876]

taiuan lan = Holoh speaking people, as opposed to Hakkah and other native languages but no relations to a similar name in Mandarin chaiteh lan = local residents keh lan = Hakkah speaking people dionhamingog lan = ROC resident atoah = people with high nasal bridge = of Western origin buntoh lan = resident of Formosa Island guahgog lan = foreigner shuanteh lan = mountain resident chinkah lan = country folks peasant Taiwanese = residents of Taiwan Taiwanese speaker = taiuan lan Taiwanese citizen = dionhuamingog lan Caucasian = atoah Formosan = buntoh lan

[@TTCheng]

KZbin是不是會使共自動字幕打開？因爲恁是講英文，KZbin會使加忌加字幕，閣會使自動翻譯做別項語言 治咧Subtitles設定兮下脚應該着會使尋着automatic captions兮設定

[@AiongTaigi]

Góa ū chhōe、chit tè tō bô. M̄ chai kám sī siuⁿ tn̂g, ā ū siáⁿ būn-tê. Mā thiaⁿ pêng-iú kóng hit ê kong-lêng chit-má bô.

[@AiongTaigi]

Automatic CC is working now.

[@lancecha1999]

從我阿祖聽到，台灣最初的由來是由‘ 埋冤’、因爲先祖從更早的清朝渡海來台，需經過危險的黑水溝（台灣海峽Taiwan strait), 活下來的人就稱台灣海峽，是埋葬很多冤魂的地方，埋冤（Daiwan)就變成台灣的說法，更早之前好像叫夷洲、以上說法，不一定正確，大家參考看看

[@lancecha1999]

台語是很美麗的語言，我每天都說台語聽台語、聽台灣歌更是超級好聽，台語不會死，連客家話，原住民語那麼少人在說，都不會消失

[@AiongTaigi]

Khó-sioh ta̍k kang teh kóng Tâi-gí, thiaⁿ Tâi-gí, bô teh siá Tâi-oân-jī!

[@lancecha1999]

@@AiongTaigi 熊熊Suddenly see your message with Rome spelling, To be frankly, I can not read out the word you write down , then I copy and paste to google translate, it become to Vietnam pronunciation , after I try to listen these words 3 times, I understand what you said" it seems every one talks and listens Taiwanese language, but no one write down Taiwanese word, My idea is It will be very strange to write down Taiwanese by the method of Rome spelling word , tell you the truth, I prefer to use Chinese word with Taiwanese language, just like all the Taiwanese song with Chinese word subtitle.

[@lancecha1999]

@@AiongTaigi Now I am listening Tristan " The song of Life" , and Learning Nihongo 日本語五十音, I study Middle Century of Europe history(Crusader), Japan history during Sengoku jidai , I like history, language and culture, of course, I study Taiwan history since 16 Century. I like something, then study and learn it.

[@lancecha1999]

History, trade, conqueror, language, food, fight, word forged most countries aound the world since The Age of Navigation, history is just a time line that we can not change it, also called fate, I am so happy you talk Taiwan so elegant , hope you will show us Taiwanese song in the future, traditional old song, Thank you again for love and living in Taiwan over 13 years, God Bless you,阿勇

[@飛流直上三千尺哪個宅]

為什麼沒有字幕呀😢

[@AiongTaigi]

二點鐘呢。汝打（台文）、我會 khǹg ·khílì 嗚。多謝！

[@飛流直上三千尺哪個宅]

@@AiongTaigi 抱歉，不是每個臺灣人都會臺語呀⋯⋯

[@AiongTaigi]

只馬有 YT 自動英文字幕嗚。

[@susu24vg]

@@飛流直上三千尺哪個宅 我女兒也不會說台語，我的雙親都是日本台灣時代出生本來會說日語和台語，我從小聽日語說台語但讀中華民國時代的學校說台語會被罰錢

[@阿謝-glitter4]

@@飛流直上三千尺哪個宅 笑死，你不會台語，這就是為什麼我們在討論台語復甦的重要性 呵呵你真的很會製造punchline 耶

[@Yamamotoseto]

Spanish is like a 2nd language in USA. It’s like the 台語

[@Yamamotoseto]

I don’t speak Spanish. I know a lot of Spanish bad words

[@yappleJ]

求漢字字幕啊啊啊啊啊啊QAQ

[@Liliquan]

I think 阿華’s approach is somewhat naive. Treating Mandarin as the enemy is a guaranteed way of losing. 台語 is never going to be able to compete on the scale and influence of Mandarin. If 台語 is to thrive then it needs to work harmoniously with Mandarin so that they both benefit each other. This fact may enrage people but if 台語 stubbornly demands that it be greater or equal to Mandarin in usage (including Government, education etc.), then 台語 will stubbornly die in the trenches. It is a war that cannot be won. Those of you that want 台語 to survive, DON’T KILL IT IN A FAILED ATTEMPT TO ASSASSINATE MANDARIN. 台語 can be a standard language used in the homes, on the streets and even in media. But it can never replace Mandarin in government or educational sectors. Unless of course you take down the government, which ain’t gonna happen.

[@jpwang7815]

同意阿華師有關威權時期對本土語言的壓迫，是造成大眾普遍對說本土語言是種低落的錯誤印象。但論述中阿華師自己也落入大福佬主義，認為"台語"就是"台灣人"應該講的語言。相對於更早的原住民語言，"台語"，或是說"閩南語"，其實也是外來語言，或許不是依政府獨裁行政推行，當年某種程度也是壓迫其他語言的強勢語言。 時代已經走到今天，所謂台灣語可以是包容各族群語言的統稱，原住民語，客語，北京語，閩南語都應該被尊重，都在台灣語言中占一個重要的位置。

[@betty90776]

同意你的論點 其實台灣話（閩南語）也是曾經的外來語

[@AiongTaigi]

阿華有特別說明、伊感覺台灣人應該愛講个是 Taiwanese languages、包括原、客、台三種。

[@jpwang7815]

看到那個"伊"就親切，感謝您對台灣的支持!

[@familystones]

If the french came to Spain and forced everyone to speak french and made it the national language and then said “nous sommes tous espagnols,” you might say ok.. “pero no todos somos españoles.”

[@scarfacejosh123]

I think Jesus didn't really directly answer the issue. His video continued the narrative of Taiwanese being a low brow language and when someone confronted him, he insulted their intelligence. He goes into a whole series of circles explaining how he's not wrong and side steps how Taiwanese was systemically phased out and oppressed by the KMT.

[@katsumotohiko4093]

It actually more like what the fuck...😆

[@AiongTaigi]

Yeah, realized after I said it haha. Oh well, it's unedited 😅

[@楊嘉樺]

hak(客)據臺(Dai)時(1988-2021) hak-ga-ngin(客家人) hak-ga-fa(客家話) Hok-lo-ngin(福佬人) hok-lo-ngin(學老人) hok-lo-ngin(鶴佬人) Hok-lo-fa(福佬話) hok-lo-fa(學老話) hok-lo-fa(鶴佬話) . kr-zia-rn(客家人) kr-zia-hua(客家話) Fu-lau-rn(福佬人) Fu-lau-hua(福佬話) uai(外)據臺(Dai)時(1945-1988) uai-s'ng-rn(外省人) z'ong-guo-rn(中國人) guo-yu Han-yu.-si Bei-fang.-guan-hua(Bei-zing(jing).-in-si)(國語 漢語系 北方官話(北京音系)) z'ong-guo.-un-syue.-si z'ong.-un.-si z'ong.-un(中國文學系 中文系 中文) hua-yu(華語) bn-s'ng-rn(本省人) Tai-uan(wan)-rn(臺灣人(台灣人)) Tai-yu(臺語(台語)) Min-Nan-rn(閩南人) Min-Nan-yu(閩南語) nitsu(日)據臺(Dai)時(1895-1945) nai-tsi(chi)-zin(jin)(內地人) nit(ni)-hon(pon)-zin(jin)(日本人) ni-hon-ngo(go)(日本語) hon-tou-zin(jin)(本島人) tai-uan(wan)-zin(jin)(臺灣人(台灣人)) tai-uan(wan)-ngo(go)(臺灣語(台灣語))

[@funlovesjoy]

"Culture", "Language", and "Nation", these are deeply intertwined ideas that have always troubled people sharing the Chinese culture (Chinese as in the pan-Chinese culture not the country). Without proper definition of and differentiation between these terms, it is a distracted and meaningless discussion. So if you want to discuss the language, then just the language itself. Or you are deviating from the true topic that really deserves discussion/debate, and you are just creating conflicts among people who really love this land and dividing them. And I will take GREAT offence if you or anyone insist that Taiwanese Hokkien/Hokloh is the only acceptable language in Taiwan, and I am speaking as a person raised in Taiwanese Hokkien family.

[@AiongTaigi]

Not a single person of the 3 in this video thinks Taigi is the only acceptable language in Taiwan. I don't know if you didn't watch the video, didn't understand it, or are responding to something else entirely, but in any case, it seems you're quite off topic.