Is the Book of Mormon Divinely Inspired? w/

[@cristinamz2137]

Props to the Mormon guy, it takes courage to come onto a Catholic setting to debate a Catholic. Thank you for doing that.

[@johns1834]

Agree, he did pretty good and was somewhat successfully when he argued against character assassination of early LDS leaders, but wasn't really able to remove all doubt whether or not the Book of Mormon was 'inspired' by God.

[@jmowenspa]

@@johns1834 Agreed. How does one remove all doubt as to whether something is inspired by God? The Bible has its share of detractors that use the same basis of argument as Trent. That being said, weighing evidence and getting information from sources of known biases is an important part of searching truth. Ultimately the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, as well as the Bible, becomes a personal matter of faith. Well done gentlemen.

[@renaissanceman9168]

Are you referring the Mormon guy who asked Trent a question and gave him 0.3 seconds to respond before cutting him off and jumping to the next question?

[@kellibuzzard9431]

Yes. ❤

[@BrianTerrill]

@cristinamz2137 it wouldn't take much for a Mormon to debate a Catholic. Most, if not all, of the best arguments Catholics make are actually in favor of Orthodoxy as opposed to Roman Catholism

[@danielcrouse6515]

I grew up Mormon and even served a mission. I am so grateful for the foundation my LDS upbringing gave me. I converted to Anglicanism almost 4 years ago now, and I became Catholic a year ago.

[@StringofPearls55]

Now that's a journey! Welcome home, my friend.

[@GldnClaw]

Scriptural Mormonism has several excellent videos on that.

[@MrPeach1]

Welcome home! my brother in law is a ex Mormon. He is a great knowledgeable Catholic now.

[@Grandlett]

awesome, a miracle you made it indeed

[@DasViking]

Man I really appreciate comments like this because I truly believe the church has shaped me as a human also. It has brought me to have a very close relationship with Christ. I'm still on my faith journey and I love hearing about other people's beliefs and I love learning. I love the teachings of the church and I believe it's Christ's church, but will always be open to others thoughts and opinions. I really dont like when people leave our church and make it some big spectacle. If you don't want to go, then stop going. Anyways, This was just a long way to say thank you for such a response. I believe it helps draw people closer together as humans.

[@loudogg73]

As a Latter Day Saint, I think Matt Fradd was an excellent and very fair moderator. That’s not always the case when stepping in with those of different beliefs. Thanks for the fairness and decency Matt!

[@jonahbarnes5841]

great to see him walking back the "I would be for the burning of Mormon books" and "the Book of Mormon is demonically inspired" rhetoric

[@UnremarkableMarx]

Not all sin is exactly demonically solicited, we go there by our own volition. But you still deep down know this silly book is nothing, and it has an 'off' quality. A-la-'Uncanny-Valley.' It's stenography, not nutritive, frivolous. Made to order, a rehash. It's sinful because it's ambitious. It's ficticious, it's decent compared to the Quran I reckon. By leaps and bounds actually. But oh my goodness!!! Fiction, baby. I'd toss it in the trash! I know it's a piece of americana, of that I'm a sucker admittedly. But this is where the reformation will take you. ​@@jonahbarnes5841

[@Grandlett]

@@jonahbarnes5841 they just as easily go in the trash and be inspired by drugs

[@OnlyLevel9]

@@jonahbarnes5841 Ya'll need the apocryphal works testifying of Jesus, am I right?

[@jonahbarnes5841]

@Grandlett ill take my better charity, longer life, better marriages, happier children, higher educational attainment, more service and more purpose in life. If that's inspired by drugs, then the Bible needs to step up it's game

[@ThoinFrostaxe]

Catholic convert from the Baptist faith here. One of the best compliments I’ve gotten was when a new coworker assumed I was LDS because of my positivity. Although I don’t believe in their theology, most LDS folks are upbeat, wholesome, friendly people. I love my LDS brothers and sisters!

[@ownser1]

@@ThoinFrostaxe Why do you call LDS “brothers and sisters”?

[@cdeep4548]

@@ownser1 Because they’re American and as Americans we’re brothers and sisters 😎

[@davidfrey5654]

by their fruits ye shall know them

[@ownser1]

@@davidfrey5654 I would consider denying the deity of Christ, thus denying the very nature and revelation of God, a very.. very bad fruit. In fact, I would say it is a necessity in considering someone to be Christian. The Church Fathers would also agree.

[@jessewilson7809]

​@@ownser1 Seems like someone has been consuming too much anti-LDS content from unreliable sources. Where did you get that? LDS doctrine affirms that Jesus is literal deity. We believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.

[@kevinmauer3738]

Having gone to high school as a Protestant in Lehi, Utah, I can say that the fruits of Mormonism in my own life were my journey to Catholicism. My LDS friends and community were lovely. They nurtured my love for Christ and gave me a deep desire for the Truth. Like many of my peers, I ultimately found it in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church led by the bishops in communion with the Bishop of Rome. I live back in Utah today with my young family, and I can't think of a better place on earth to raise our kids. Their friends will challenge them to understand what they believe and why, and most will come from stable and moral families.

[@pajabesa2492]

@@kevinmauer3738 I am glad you were able to come closer to God. My father, who was studying to be a Catholic priest in Latin America, saw the fruits of "Mormonism" and converted to then serve a full time mission for Christ in our church. I have too and have been blessed for it. I still have family members that are Catholics and love them.

[@ChristIsLord7]

@@pajabesa2492I would love to hear his testimony because it sounds like he didn’t know the catholic faith very well. Keep seeking truth my friend.

[@saralyg]

The LDS church also brought me to Catholicism from Protestantism. For this I am very grateful to Mormons and their church!

[@pajabesa2492]

@@saralyg I am glad you feel closer to God. My maternal grandparents also converted from Catholicism to baptized members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Latin America. My grandfather even served as a Bishop and Patriarch in the church. He came to the truth as he learned about the doctrine of Eternal Families and marriages (sealings) with the priesthood keys being restored that bind on earth and in heaven vs just till death do us part.

[@saralyg]

@@pajabesa2492 I investigated the LDS faith and it brought me to Catholicism. I realized that there was no great apostasy! The great news is that the keys were never lost. They were given to Peter and handed down. I also believe I will be with my family in heaven … no need for temple sealings for that. I have great respect and love for Mormons and ultimately your faith brought me to the fullness of Christianity which is found in the Catholic faith.

[@James_Wisniewski]

It's rare for me to see a debate like this where I know and respect both debaters. Glad you could get both of these cool dudes on.

[@nwkitesurfer]

Thanks for hosting. I'm truly grateful to both Trent and Jacob for participating in this debate. I hope all three of you left friends.

[@clearstonewindows]

For sure

[@Naomi-bw5qs]

Cringe. I like a robust aggressive debate. Nobody wants to watch two friends chat over brunch. Why are men so feminine now? It’s gross.

[@Danboy0001]

@@nwkitesurfer I hope Jacob apologised for that cross examination section. I've never seen such a bad faith and rude approach - even in pretty heated debates. Id actually be interested to know whether that would be acceptable in a formal debate - anyone know?

[@pigetstuck]

@@Danboy0001 timestamp for the bad faith and rude part?

[@kristinrichmond8185]

@@Danboy0001please tell us what was in bad faith and rude?

[@Electross]

Hello. Latter-Day Saint Christian here. I have 100% love and appreciation for my Catholic brothers and sisters. It's so great to see that we can debate beliefs with respect and kindness. True followers of Christ put kindness, respect, patience, love, humility, and charity as a higher priority than proving a point or being right.

[@danielkim672]

100%. While it is important to be right, it does not mean you have to make someone change their mind right then and there. I am on another camp as I am protestant but it was great to see they were both being gracious in a heated debate.

[@oliveri9407]

Mormons aren’t Christian

[@RA4J]

Your founding prophet was pretty adamant that “Christians” were all going to hell. Please don’t appropriate the term “Christian” at this late date.

[@colehansen188]

@@Electross LDS Christian? Gordon B Hinckley would disagree with you

[@열심게임]

Not Christian

[@cadenza5253]

So glad you guys did this! May it open the door to many more Catholic-LDS debates in the future. Thank you!

[@CryptoCPA]

Agreed. Much appreciation to Trent and Jacob.

[@Tman3421]

Dang that guy is impressive. Totally unconvinced that the Book of Mormon is true, but that is the first time I've ever heard a real, reasonable defense of it.

[@benjaminvandenberghe9726]

very easy to defend to other Christians. Literally just use the arguments they use for the bible's legitimacy haha.

[@greypilgrim9967]

His arguments are just like the book of mormon itself. As the only things that can be claimed as good in the book of mormon are ripped off from the bible. So with his argument he literally says he's trying to use Jimmy's and Trent's own arguments. And yet he misapplies them and ignores or doesn't actually counter the gaping holes put into his position by Trent

[@benjaminvandenberghe9726]

@@greypilgrim9967 is that so

[@benjaminvandenberghe9726]

@@greypilgrim9967 i'm glad you've clarified this without actually addressing any of the specific arguments

[@swcordovaf]

Jacob does a solid job and we can look to Trent’s techniques to criticize Catholicism and just change the words. In the end each of us will live our faith, enjoy the fruits of it and meet each other on the other side as humble seekers and we will know more than we know now.

[@reillydevine12]

Matt did a great job moderating. Jacob did awesome, Trent is his usual solid self. Can't wait for more discussions about this stuff!

[@danlopez.3592]

How can you say he was solid when he literally said that we need to take the character of the witnesses of the golden plates into account when we do not know anything about the character of the supposed writers of the gospels. So hypocritical.

[@gg-sr9lq]

@@danlopez.3592 supposed? We know who the writers of the gospel were, we know what they preached, how they were martyred. We even know their character flaws, and repentance of such. Try and engage in good faith going forward, or I’ll start talking about Joseph Smiths character, and you won’t like that

[@danlopez.3592]

@@gg-sr9lq we know who wrote the gospels? Please provide evidence of this.

[@smartismarti4049]

​@@danlopez.3592 Shouldn't a member of Christ's true church be more charitable to his apostles? This is crazy. If you're in good faith, read "The Case for Jesus" by Brant Pitre or look up some talks about evidence for Christ. History is real and leaves real artifacts and manuscripts. Every manuscript that physically exists of the gospels has the name of the author included. There are 0 anonymous manuscripts out of the oldest copies of each of the gospels. It's very confusing seeing you guys vehemently undermining the authenticity of the bible. This wasn't a thing in the LDS environment I was raised in. True fruits of the spirit behind Mormonism in my opinion.

[@Metroid-rg9pn]

I agree. As a latter-day saint, I was worried because of some of the things Matt has said. But he allowed both sides to go over time a bit, and he even asked Jacob if he was alright answering non-Book of Mormon questions. I thought he was a great moderator.

[@countryboyred]

Went in thinking Trent would wipe the floor with this guy. By the end of the debate I was shocked at how good the Mormon guy did. Good stuff guys.

[@harmonillustration]

The reason why isn't because Jacob was good, it's because the LDS Church isn't a joke like everything thinks.

[@countryboyred]

@@harmonillustration the LDS church is a fraud but Jacob is a good debater for sure. Credit where credit is due.

[@harmonillustration]

@@countryboyred - Obviously, I disagree. He's only as good as his arguments. He's not a slick talker or anything like that. He's actually just a regular dude. He didn't go to years of theological seminary or anything like that. He's just a guy that has a KZbin channel and he reads a lot. He just has solid material that people have to deal with. The material shines through. Not sure I've ever seen someone make a good argument with terrible material.

[@countryboyred]

@@harmonillustration you can make a good argument with terrible material, it’s called being a good debater. Obviously having truth on your side helps but I’ve watched Protestants demolish Catholics on debates before. Does that make Protestantism true? Of course not, it just means that guy won that particular debate.

[@saulpower]

You would have to be familiar with Mormonism to really understand the weakness in Jacob’s arguments. Also it’s clear Jacob avoids the more difficult points Trent makes, like the translation issue of the Book of Abraham. Granted Mormonism is a modern proxy for Christianity on many levels so they’re both made up from what I can tell.

[@SamHollidayV]

Catholic here, but that was about a good an opening debate argument as I’ve ever heard. Edit: from purely a rhetorical perspective, obviously I remain unconvinced of Mormonism.

[@The_Man_Chidi]

Then go and ask God in prayers and not Jacob Hansen

[@vaderkurt7848]

Because Mormonism is obviously false.

[@sivad1025]

The literary arguments are too subjective to be persuasive, but the fruits of Mormonism is a good argument. Muhammad vindicates Jesus' word about false prophets since Islam is so demonic. But Mormons seem to be kind and righteous people.

[@catholicguy1073]

💯

[@catholicguy1073]

@@sivad1025that’s because Mormonism in part came out of Christianity in Western Civilization. Islam came out of the East in and is not from Western Civilization so the morals are more different

[@WARDRADIO]

Before we rip these arguments apart, PLEASE let’s all thank Trent and Jacob for being willing to do this and Pints with Aquinas being willing to host them :). We wouldn’t be able to even analyze these claims and counterclaims without the gift of the original debate. Bravo Trent, Bravo Matt, Bravo Jacob.

[@a.ihistory5879]

Trent's opening statement was enough to debunk Mormonism. Joey Smith failed the Deuteronomy 18:22 test, right off the bat there isn't a reason to trust anything the charlatan had to say or offer. Have fun gaslighting your audience though, as usual.

[@adanalyst6925]

@@a.ihistory5879I like how you only show up on this channel to hate on Latter-day Saints.

[@LevMyshkin9988]

@@WARDRADIO have fun obfuscating Trent’s arguments and deceiving your audience into heresy. You can’t rip Trent’s argument apart. Your epistemological standards are so confused I’m surprised you can even form a coherent sentence. Jacob is a nice guy, his flaw is being associated with a gaslighter like you.

[@winkblink8636]

​@@a.ihistory5879don't know who this "Joey" Smith is

[@shaddjimenez4524]

@@adanalyst6925“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!” ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

[@brynnaandersen7739]

As a member of the a church of Jesus Christ of LDS, none of us would be here without the Catholic Church. I love Catholics, and their devotion to God has been an inspiration to me throughout my life.

[@lukebrasting5108]

If only you guys worshipped God the way the Bible prophecied all believers throughout the world, from east to west, would during the Messianic age (Malachi 1:10-11). Do you offer incense and a pure sacrifice to the God of Israel in your Mormon temple meetings? Do you know what the incense and pure sacrifice is? The Early Christians did because they mentioned that Malachi prophecy in their writings and used it as one of their main argumemts to prove to the Jews that Christ was the Messiah.

[@lukebrasting5108]

If only you guys worshipped God the way the Bible prophecied all believers throughout the world, from east to west, would during the Messianic age (Malachi 1:10-11). Do you offer incense and a pure sacrifice to the God of Israel in your Mormon temple meetings? Do you know what the incense and pure sacrifice is? The Early Christians did because they mentioned that Malachi prophecy in their writings and used it as one of their main argumemts to prove to the Jews that Christ was the Messiah.

[@tvsnow9]

Matt, thank you for hosting and moderating this. No matter which side we agree with or that we think “won,” I think we can all agree we’d love to see more of these Catholic-Latter-day Saint discussions. I loved every second.

[@Grandlett]

except that it gives pointless airtime to another goofy and false protestant religion

[@tvsnow9]

@@Grandlett 35k viewers in one day disagree.

[@minui8758]

It’s popular because the LDS has deceived a lot of people and it’s collapsing in numbers so a lot of ex members are deprogramming. We need to see strident preaching against it certainly but engaging with it as though it’s an equally valid option is to be discouraged… nor should we engage with it as seriously as we would with Protestants who believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation and correctly baptise their faithful

[@BehavingBradly]

@@tvsnow9 I second that

[@danielstark8356]

I've got a pretty crazy prediction: All the Mormons will think that Jacob won All the Catholics (and mainstream Christians) will think that Trent won

[@ChrisTheLazyMystic]

Solid prediction. You may be a prophet yourself.

[@ElisWrite]

This is usually how it goes with religious debates. Every side claims their guy won. Just look at the comments on this video. You can tell the beliefs of the poster just by who they claim won.

[@TheJeh1]

Whom will people on the fence about the Book of Mormon say won? The debate is for them.

[@ItsSnagret]

@@danielstark8356 lmao

[@mamiller1980]

People discerning a church might decide and on the off chance there is one who sees the truth, it's worth it.

[@calebcoulter2268]

Trent seemed to miss a rebuttal- The reason why Catholicism being true debunks Mormonism isnt because they're two competing worldviews thus he accepts his own, but because Mormonism is claiming to be a new third testament, thus it relies on the truth of the second testament. He alludes to this but doesnt ever stick the landing, so Jacob calling out him begging the question comes across strong

[@amu7379]

He should have also explained the Catholic view that we know the Bible is infallible from the establishment of an infallible Church, rather than tacitly concede the Protestant framework of accepting the Bible as inerrant because it's historically reliable and can be morally inspiring.

[@menandermenandros5532]

@@calebcoulter2268 I think Trent didn’t have enough time to explain this properly, so many people may have missed it. Also Jacob himself missed it and actually misled the audience by suggesting that Trent was just saying, “I believe Catholicism is true therefore Mormon false” which was not at all what Trent was saying. He was of course saying Christianity came first, Catholic is original Christianity, therefore if Mormonism contradicts anywhere with Christianity it is false. But I think a lot of people misunderstood that.

[@jakeharmer1068]

​@@menandermenandros5532 just so you're aware, the LDS claim is that it is original Christianity- restored with a Prophet and 12 Apostles on the earth. So the premise that the Catholic Church is the unadulterated original is contested and cannot be relied on in a debate like this.

[@topazblahblah]

@@jakeharmer1068 True. The Catholic Church seems nothing like the simple church in the New Testament.

[@PerIpsum777]

@@topazblahblahA tree doesn’t look much like the simple seed it sprouted from, but it is indeed the same thing :-)

[@michaelhyatt4721]

My faith and love for my Savior Jesus Christ has greatly increased as I have read and pondered the words contained in the Book of Mormon this year , just as they did as I read and pondered the words of Joseph in Egypt, psalms , Isaiah and throughout the New Testament in the accounts , words and life of our Savior Jesus Christ . The great goodness of God has always been and always will be available to all who seek Him . God bless you all !

[@jonathanfairchild]

As a Catholic, I gotta say that traveling to Utah was an absolute treat! The people there were extremely friendly and welcoming. Also the cities were much cleaner and seemed safer than most places. While I don’t have any data to back that up it did feel like a wonderful place to raise a family. One of the things that blew my mind was I saw kids riding their bikes and hanging out in the out doors like you never see elsewhere. There is much to admire about the LDS even if I think their religion is false.

[@catholicguy1073]

True. A faith can have things that a true and if the faith lasts for a period of time people are certainly finding benefit for having the belief.

[@majesticliberatoroftheoppr3971]

Thank you for your kind words. By their fruits ye shall know them.

[@PresidentBrighamYoung]

Amazing Job to Trent and Jacob both! I really enjoyed it and am grateful you guys were willing to get together and do this. God Bless!

[@stephaniewilliamson4611]

Always great to see you Brigham ❤❤❤

[@ItsSnagret]

@@PresidentBrighamYoung Brigham has entered the chat

[@prayunceasingly2029]

Brigham, any comments on the "Adam is God" doctrine?

[@ryrylamby]

Former Mormon, now Catholic. This was fantastic! I was baptized into the Catholic church this last Easter and I haven't looked back, best thing that has happened to me. Fellow Catholics, please pray for members of the LDS faith. Many of my friends have left the LDS church and now don't know where to turn.

[@richardheiden8066]

Welcome home!

[@AK5of8]

May our Heavenly Father draw all of these good people to Himself!

[@Zach-wh3fl]

How!???? Seeisouly, what made your turn away?

[@ryrylamby]

@@Zach-wh3fl Easy, I began reading the early church fathers. Also, claiming there was a 'Great Apostasy" but mormons not being about to tell me exactly when it happened. I'll be honest with you Zach, I used to be a mormon missionary (served in Philadelphia) I am well aware of LDS church doctrine, this wasn't a decision I made without thinking really hard about. Catholicism just made more sense.

[@perd8777]

@@ryrylambywelcome home❤️❤️❤️

[@audreymarsh5090]

Mr Hansen: respectfully, sir, if you have the affirmative positon (in this case that the Book of Mormon IS divinely inspired), don’t you have the burden of proof? The negative position does not have to prove anything, but the affirmative *does* have to make its case. Throughout your opening statement, you kept saying “Trent will need to prove…”, but that’s your job. Wonderfully respectful debate, and I hope this opens the way to more LDS-Catholic discussions.

[@daniallemmon5453]

This 💯

[@jordan5113]

Jacob's 'proof' that by Trent's own standards he should uphold the Book of Mormon. If one can show that by their opponent's standards their case is proved, then that 'proves' their argument, ya? As there is no debate because their positions agree.

[@clearstonewindows]

That was the point. There are more witnesses for the book of Mormon than the bible.

[@tafazziReadChannelDescription]

​@@jordan5113Yes that's a valid strategy in a debate, but in that case Jacob should have cited Trent or some church document that talks about inspiration. You can't use that strategy if the audience doesn't know how the opponent articulates his standard, and nothing in this debate would have made Trent use his time explaining it before the cross examination.

[@lukehanson_]

If your main gripe is on the technicalities of the debate format, that's not a good look for Trent's debate performance. Do you have any gripes outside of the technicalities.

[@pursueadventure]

This has to be the most respectful KZbin comment section I have ever seen! Thank you for the great debate.

[@IJN-33]

As a latter-day saint I was worried about Matt moderating this after his comments on the book of Mormon. I actually left with more respect for him which I wasn't expecting.

[@ChadSolberg]

same

[@ItsSnagret]

Great debate - more LDS & Catholics content 👏🏻

[@georgerafa5041]

Heck ya. I'm exMormon and admittedly despise that religion but living in Utah it's impossible to escape their nonsense. It's so refreshing for me to see Catholics and even Prots challenging them.

[@GldnClaw]

@@georgerafa5041 And excellent to see it not only 'hold up' against attack, but the Truth of it prospering in the comment zeitgeist.

[@mattc1647]

@@georgerafa5041 you're obsessed m8. The original comment wasn't about your daddy issues

[@georgerafa5041]

@@mattc1647 I am. Rooting out evil is important work

[@michaelbarry1664]

@mattc1647 what an odd thing to say

[@antonludwigaugustvonmacken8680]

I found your channel by happenstance. This is rapidly turning into my favorite podcast.

[@redplanet76]

Im LDS. Trent is an outstanding guy and generally very fair. I'm really impressed that you let Jacob say what he wanted especially at the end... Jeff Durbin would have never allowed that. NEVER. I think the Catholic Church, while not the supreme truth, is a great faith with great people. I loved this debate... Thanks Matt! Well done Trent and Jacob.

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Don't judge all Calvinist by Jeff as Dr. Gavin Ortlund would be just as graces as Trent and has been on debates with Trent on PWA.

[@savedby_grace6110]

@redplanet76 In your opinion, who objectively won the debate?

[@redplanet76]

@@davidjanbaz7728yeah fair enough. Jeff is special in his unpleasantness toward us.

[@ExpiditionWild]

Listen to your founder on Catholicism. It is the Whore of Babylon

[@redplanet76]

@@savedby_grace6110 well let’s be clear, as an apologist myself it’s going to be very difficult for me to be unbiased. My biases aren’t due to me necessarily being LDS, but because as an apologist I have a good understanding of the background and context of all the attacks Trent made. Trent made a series of arguments that mischaracterize the truth, for example some anachronisms like horses in the Book of Mormon and not giving the proper context to the quote by David Whitmer about how God told him to leave the church (David was in fear of his life from the mob… that’s why he needed to leave). Now having said all of that (and I could give another dozen examples), the specific debate proposition is very challenging for Jacob to prove. It’s akin to proving the existence of God in 45 minutes… it’s just not possible. So did Jacob win? Well I think he did a lot better than Matt or Trent thought he was going to do. I don’t believe Trent adequately prepared… his arguments are candidly outdated … if you’re going to attack us there are better ways to do it. He mostly attacked the periphery of the Book of Mormon (Joseph Smith, Book of Abraham, etc) than he did the actual book. Anyway I’d give Jacob a B+. He did better than I could have. I thought his arguments about Nahom and Ishmael were compelling. I also felt Jacob comparing the 17 witnesses to the three witnesses of the resurrection was compelling… I don’t think Trent was ready for that. I’d give Trent a C. I have a great respect for Trent’s mind. he’s proven himself many times over for his intellect. I just didn’t see his normal prowess in this debate. I think Trent gish galloped too much but that can be an effective rhetorical device. Trent did say that Jacob hadn’t proved the book of Mormon and therefore failed the debate, which is kinda true, but then again, Jacob never had the intention of proving the text. The best he could do is point out a number of authenticating items. But proof is a high standard. What I think is clear, at least from my perspective, is that Jacob took it more seriously and prepared many more hours than Trent.

[@ea2761]

Let's see Blake Ostler and Trent Horn on the nature of God. That would be quite a debate.

[@ItsSnagret]

@@ea2761 now I would PAY for that

[@professorchimp1]

@@ea2761 That would be glorious

[@Randyw1111]

I would like Blake Ostler in any debate. Guy is a brilliant thinker.

[@AlvaroS.Lainez]

Blake is the man! I think his critiques of classical theism are unique because they come from a non-atheistic preservative that most Christians deal with so I’d love to see engagement with his work.

[@Aaron-SLC]

​@Randyw1111 no he isnt. If ed feser was in the room having that debate it would he abundantly clear

[@cjreckoner8465]

I honestly hope to hear more discussions like this in the future.

[@Kevin-ts7hf]

Trent and Jacob both did very well. Great job gentlemen 🙏🏼

[@albertito77]

I predicted a blood bath with Trent devastating him. I was wrong. Although Jacob comes from a difficult starting point given the difficulties in the Mormon story. Given this, he did remarkably well

[@BATAngTABA]

One of Trent's best debate opponents by far!

[@Ironrodpower]

Love Jacob but he is a rookie. (not that I could do better)

[@renaissanceman9168]

He incessantly interrupted Trent and quickly jumped to the next question. He was afraid to let Trent speak.

[@justindifabio482]

@@renaissanceman9168 the moderator incessantly stated that interruptions were fair game?

[@kimberlylawson8240]

@@renaissanceman9168 Jacob said it was for time management, watch this reaction to the debate on Ward radio. He said it was pretty of the rules.

[@Jrce11]

@@renaissanceman9168it’s a cross examination and Trent has done the same thing to James white. I’m a big Trent fan and a devout Catholic, but let’s not throw shade at Jacob just because we disagree with him.

[@hackerj23]

Great debate! Book of Mormon has a better basis than I thought. Well done to both debaters.

[@Mike-bn7kr]

I think the most strange thing I can point out about the book of Mormon. Is it it’s written in King James style English. I find this very perplexing. Why wouldn’t it be written in American style English with Joseph Smith growing up in the United States? Where people probably no longer spoke in the style of King James anymore. During Smith’s lifetime was there books still being written and 1600 style English within America? Matthew 22:29 ESV / But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. The Book of Mormon, subtitled since 1981 "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" but we read this in the holy Bible 👉 Galatians 1:8-9, 2 Corinthians 11:4-6, Matthew 24:24-25, 1 Timothy 4:1, 1John 4:1-2, 2 Peter 2:1-2, Matthew 7:15-16, God will not lie. 3 Nephi 27:18 👈 Book of Mormon The Bible was clearly written before the book of Mormon or any of their other books. So my question is, why would the book of Mormon be more powerful than the original books of the Bible that are much older? The Book of Mormon, subtitled since 1981 "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" but we read this in the holy Bible 👉 Galatians 1:8-9, 2 Corinthians 11:4-6, Matthew 24:24-25, 1 Timothy 4:1, 1John 4:1-2, 2 Peter 2:1-2, Matthew 7:15-16, God will not lie. 3 Nephi 27:18 👈 Book of Mormon So why does the teachings of the LDS or Mormons go against their own teachings in the book the Mormon in these passages? Why do they contradict themselves go ahead and read these passages in the book of Mormon yourself they are very clear and very direct. They are not wishy-washy or somehow easily translated to mean anything other than there was only the possibility of one God and three persons in one being. Much like I have a hand that has five fingers but it’s still one hand, but five digits. It’s still one hand and cannot be separated. Omnipotent God Mosiah 3:15 👈 Book of Mormon. Unchangeable God Mormon 9:9-11 Moroni 8:18 So if the book of Mormon and these passages says that God is unchangeable, just like the Bible tells us. How is it that the Mormon God could first be man then God then come back as Jesus as man that seems like a lot of changes. That doesn’t fit these verses. Jesus said “I will not leave you orphans” (John 14:16-18). If Mormons are right about a complete apostasy, Jesus did leave us orphans—for 1700 years! Things to think about how is it that Joseph Smith 1700 years later has more power than Jesus Christ to hold the church together and to repair it. And Jesus only held it together until the last apostle died. Where is the power and Jesus and that? Ask Mormons to Look up honey or honey bee? Ask if it was found in the Americas Indian languages before, the time of Columbus? Ask about cattle goats chickens there’s also a few other animals talked about in the book of Mormon. That did not arrive in the Americas until after the time of Columbus. It may take some research to really dig into that but something to consider.?? I suggest everybody no matter what they’re studying that you pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you. To pray for holy wisdom, clarity and understanding. To diligently study the best year capable of the subject that you’re trying to discern. I’m not saying it’s easy. But Jesus established one church that he claimed that the devil could not destroy. Interpreting scripture is not an easy task, but on some level, even a child should be able to understand many of the concepts from scripture. I suggest occasionally praying and fasting and working on searching for truth, and the reality of what Jesus did do here on this earth because some spirits you can only beat them through prayer and fasting. In my personal experience, I have found that Mormons are some of the most kindest, generous people I’ve ever met. This is something that they can share with the rest of the world that’s fantastic. And Catholic should aspire for the same kind of thing. I appreciate the gentleness of what I’ve found with the Mormon or LDS people I have met in my lifetime. But I trust in my heart and soul Joseph Smith did not restore. Christianity. I also believe that Martin Luther and Calvin, King James and Henry the eighth did not fix the problems of the Catholic faith but took a large step to watering down Christianity overall. Choosing to freely interpret scripture without locking to some visible church authority that all can see to interpret scripture. Anyway, this is my small bit of information that I hope someone finds helpful and their search for truth and Christianity. May we all unite with our little differences to Christ and his blood for salvation?

[@garyr.8116]

All the 'evidence' Jacob preferred only supported that Ishmael was in the old world/Arabia - the BOM is about what happened supposedly here in the new world.

[@jcbrown0]

@@hackerj23 I’d suggest looking into the claims he made before concluding that the Book of Mormon has a better basis than you thought.

[@virginlamo8202]

Jacob and Trent also had a informal discussion on Jacob’s channel ThoughtfulFaith

[@pythonista466]

That was a much better discussion.

[@majorreyna8000]

Believe it or not, this is my very first debate that I’ve watched all the way through. I’ve been wanting to get into watching debates between Catholics and other Christian denominations and I’m so glad this is the first one I saw. Everything was very well moderated, everyone was very respectful (for the most part lol) and Trent and Jacob were really able to nitpick each other in a good way to where they both had good arguments. I’m Catholic for life, but even Jacob had me being like “yeah, I guess you could argue that.” I’ll be praying in the future for another debate between these two wonderful gentlemen on the teachings of the Mormon church being contradictory to Scripture or about Joseph as a true or false prophet. Thanks Matt for another wonderful video.

[@chyhodgson7726]

@@majorreyna8000 Trent and Jacob had a really great discussion on Jacob's channel you would probably enjoy as well. I also thought this was great and would love to see more.

[@jimmybobco]

I would not consider LDS christianity. This has been a relatively recent push by LDS to identify as christians

[@keerdor2763]

@@jimmybobco It’s called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, my friend. It is historically the very first church to place Jesus Christ in the name, (Since the original).

[@keerdor2763]

Rather than praying for debate, why not pray to know if it’s true? Why not test the fruit and pray for an answer? I saw another commenter say something that really stood out to me, and he said “Put truth before all else, even tradition. You will either find truth elsewhere, or your faith in Catholicism will be strengthened, but it only works if you put truth first. Otherwise you’ll never know.

[@majorreyna8000]

@keerdor2763 I agree. God is truth, so whatever He knows to be true, we pray he sends down the Holy Spirit to guide us to it. I will say though, I pray that more debates can occur so that hopefully the truth can come out of those debates and people can fully understand everything about LDS, including the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith himself, and everything they teach and don't teach. The more we know, the more we can use that knowledge and pray that God guides us to His truth and not our own. It's one thing to pray for truth, but another to pray for God's truth.

[@brynnaandersen7739]

Great debate - my only regret is that the contents of the Book of Mormon was not discussed. That’s where the real meat is. Archeological subjects are good and well, but what does the Book of Mormon proclaim? How does it support the Bible, if it does at all? How is it another testament of Jesus Christ? What would that mean if it were true?

[@BehavingBradly]

I second this, that's not only better content for a debate, it's also the more crucial content for belief.

[@namordecai]

Well, anyone can get a free Book of Mormon by going to the Church's website any time and decide for themselves. I think it supports The Bible extremely well. On the title page, written by the ancient prophet Mormon, it says The purpose of The Book of Mormon is to convince people that Jesus is "The Eternal God." I think it does that.

[@TakeTheHighground]

Mormons are my favorite heretics 😜 Seriously, I appreciate this debate.

[@joeriv4151]

As a LDS I appreciate this kind of friendly teasing 😂

[@matthewnielsen3017]

LOL!

[@mikeyangel1067]

LDS would have to be Christians to be heretics. They are not, their understanding of God and Jesus are of another matrix, it does not. The God and doctrine of the early Church does not match the “restored” Church of LDS.

[@savedby_grace6110]

For me, LDS theology is a sci-fi version of Christianity. Star Wars and Star Trek come to mi nd 😂

[@DasViking]

​@@savedby_grace6110As an LDS member I take star wars as a compliment but star trek as an insult. So thanks and no thanks 😂😅 May the force be with you brother!!

[@caleycarlson1262]

Great job on both sides. Really thought provoking. Some of these debates are so hard to watch no matter which side you’re “rooting” for. This was so respectfully done while each keeping their integrity. Well done 👍🏻

[@bambie1830]

As a Mormon. I love Catholics

[@a.ihistory5879]

How can you stay Mormon after that smackdown Trent gave just in his opening statement alone lol

[@matthewschmidt5069]

We love you too. Let's both continue, friend, to study church history

[@captainsirk1173]

@@a.ihistory5879 If they’re anything like me, it’d be on account of having heard the arguments Trent made about a million times already, and finding the counterarguments more compelling.

[@stephaniewilliamson4611]

​@@a.ihistory5879 that wasn't very kind, but ❤ right back at you anyways

[@VICTOR7oh2]

@@a.ihistory5879 did you miss Jacob's rebuttle? He debunked him on the spot 🤦‍♂️

[@rynnola8634]

As a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I have so much love and respect for my catholic brothers and sisters. I served a 2 year mission in Maryland and the people who showed me the most love and kindness were those of the catholic faith. While they definitely never wanted to engage with anything we were teaching, the mutual respect we had for one another was truly remarkable.

[@OliveMule]

You read a sinners book. You're a heretic. We don't believe in the same things. Followers of Joseph's Myth need to convert to the ONE TRUE FAITH immediately Go to your nearest church and sign up for RCIA classes 🇻🇦THERE'S ONLY 1 HOLY CATHOLIC & APOSTOLIC CHURCH🇻🇦

[@camronbrewer8994]

So much respect for all 3 of these guys! Well done gents! 🙏🏻 God bless you all 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@-tikla]

Hearing so much in this debate about archaeology and historical evidence reminds me how much my belief in the Bible and the Book of Mormon is from direct experience with the saving power of Jesus Christ. No amount of historical or archeological existence would persuade me without that witness of my own experience Thank heaven for the Catholic Church who preserved so much of the gospel of Jesus Christ! And thank heaven for a living God who still speaks to His children today!

[@martyfromnebraska1045]

Why the hell do you guys get these profound personal experiences and yet when I repeatedly ask for them I get silence? I really want to be a Christian too. That's why I watch all of this content.

[@keerdor2763]

@@martyfromnebraska1045Maybe the first step is learning more about the spirit, or how it communicates, and then for some of us, it may require complete repentance first, and lowering ourselves to the dust, in complete humility… but I don’t know you, or your circumstance.

[@JoshuaBaguley]

Great job guys!!! Even though we disagree on Theology we are all brothers and sisters of God. I am a proud member of the Church of Jesus Christ!

[@BehavingBradly]

I love the spirit in which this debate was carried out. I have great respect for both of these men. Let's continue to have friendly, love-inspired conversations like these, and more importantly, let's all stand together as brothers and sisters in Christ against the true enemy who is strengthening his grip on our nation and our world. We know he won't prevail, but we've all been called to be spiritual warriors together to do our part, so don't ever forget your armor! God bless us all

[@Malygosblues]

I still feel that the core of the debate should first be "Does the Book of Mormon truly continue and affirm the revelation of the Old and New Testaments?". And then from there we can get into witness from persons and archaeology.

[@KelseasComments]

That would be so good!

[@MedCatIncorporated]

@@Malygosblues anything that’s plagiarized from the Bible will do that to some degree. The topic of this debate is better because it strikes at the core of the issue. What you’re saying is more of a detour that avoids core problems with the Book of Mormon.

[@jope2123]

​​​@@MedCatIncorporatedwhat you're saying is a detour from READING the Book of Mormon.

[@GldnClaw]

There's some pre-supposition going on in there. It's a testimony of Jesus Christ that does just fine as a standalone, but is all the more enhanced by the light and truth within the Old an New Testaments. (and apocrypha too.)

[@Charistoph]

@@MedCatIncorporated, except nothing was plagiarized from The Bible. All things which are "copied" are properly attributed as well as could be considered from either an ancient writer or an early 19th Century writer.

[@anne.self506]

Thank you so much to you both and for you both being willing to debate this with so much grace for each other, it is so inspiring to see. As a latter day saint myself whose religion is unfortunately often mocked and treated with contempt by other christians, i must offer particular thanks to Jacob for taking this on, and shining such a marvelous light on the ever growing evidences for the book of mormon. The sublime truths and spirit that pervade the book of mormon continue to change who i am, how i view and treat others, and deepen my personal connection to God everyday. I hope that this discussion will at least help others not of our faith to understand what we believe a little better, maybe even enough to read the book itself so they can begin to understand why we believe what we do.

[@Jerome616]

Do you know why there is contempt? It is because Joseph has created yet another divide in the Church, and family that is already divided as it is, he didn't unify anything, but rather made a new sect that once again holds all other sects at arms length. We are not supposed to be divided, that is the fruit of Satan. I know you would never see it that way, but that is the reason.

[@austinturgoose]

I just wanted to give kudos to Matt for being a really professional moderator! I don’t really expect these arguments to convince one side or the other, but I do hope that Catholics and Mormons can politely disagree while finding ways to work together to better the world and affirm the reality of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice.

[@dcarts5616]

Catholics and Latter Day Saints actually do work well with each other. I and never been attacked by Catholics like this, how Horn did, in all my life. Usually it’s Protestants who ding get along with LDS and pretty much flat out won’t work arm in arm. Ironically, Protestants (who Catholics were killing around the time of Bible publishing for the masses) were the ones killing LDS in the 1800’s. 😮

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

You're right. Matt should apologize for his statement about wanting to burn all of the Book of Mormons which was not a polite gesture in any way.

[@thistledownz.2982]

Mason Ohio...new Mormon temple being built here. I met two, holy, good, humble young LDS men. We had an engaging 40 minute dialogue. I'm Catholic...revert...I would love to see this caliber of youth being produced in our Catholic church. I can't wait until the One, Holy, Universal Church can be home to two such men. I was humbled after the discussion, they were humbled as well...a holy meeting in the park.

[@IJN-33]

As a latter-day saint I think that's wonderful. I love our Catholic friends.

[@nasquamastudios]

This was a fantastic debate and Hansen did an incredible job defending his position. I have a lot of respect for Trent in general but the double standard that he has between the Bible and the Book of Mormon is rather concerning and I’m glad Jacob did an effective job illustrating that.

[@rivV2]

Not going to lie..... Mr. Hansen did really well. He pulled a Trent on Trent lol. This was the first time I've heard a mormon give a defense and it was actually pretty solid.

[@bambie1830]

We are taught the spirit of contention is of the devil, culturally it’s made us take a lot of hits from believers and secular society without us fighting back (book of Mormon musical) for example. Contenting for the faith is different than the spirit of contention so Jacob is displaying this well

[@phillipcook3430]

Rarely do debates convince. The convincing comes by doing an independent study of the claims a book or church makes without critics whispering in your ear. Just as an individual can gain a testimony of the Bible by reading it and striving to live by what it teaches, the same can be done with the Bible. Even evidences don’t really have much spiritual benefit. The evidence you need to last is a witness from God through the Holy Spirit and in my opinion is more powerful and lasting than what your eyes or ears or hands can see, hear, or feel.

[@Danboy0001]

Interesting take. Not what I saw. I didn't think Hansen debated very well at all. Didn't argue the affirmative well at all. Bad structure of arguments. Didn't undermine Trents arguments well. Really bad affirmative case.

[@rivV2]

@@Danboy0001 I'm not to scholarly. I'm a pretty simple laymen. I'm definitely not saying Trent won or lost, I've just always assumed Mormons don't have good reasons to beleive what they beleive. I was proven wrong today. I really liked Jacob's closing statement.

[@Danboy0001]

@@rivV2 Everyone can have their own view :-) As I said though, I didn't see a compelling argument at at. Id go as far as to say that if you found Hansen's arguments compelling *at all* , then you'd have to think that Islam was *very* compelling - as Islam's claims, while manifestly incorrect, are in many ways far superior to Mormonism (at least they are monotheistic) and in other ways the *exact same arguments* (our book has to be true because it's so brilliant; or it has to be true because we're such good people), which are laughably weak arguments. But you be you. And if you found him compelling, you found him compelling...

[@alexs.5107]

The mormon guy did kind of well though. It wasn't a total walk over

[@awfulwaffle1341]

He’s a very good debater and often walks over people. But this was by far his most formidable opponent. He was definitely the underdog with this one. Considering who he was up against, he did alright.

[@bleutooth1000]

@@awfulwaffle1341 what are you talking about? Considering who he was up against Jacob did GREAT! Trent is world class and did not actually get one up on Jacob at all. Trent actually failed to address a lot of good points that Jacob brought up

[@SJohnson529]

I agree. I was actually disappointed with Trent’s performance. Jacob did a good job.

[@MedCatIncorporated]

@@alexs.5107 Jacob did much better than any other Mormon apologist I’ve ever heard. He still lost the debate, though. He got caught in the weeds and couldn’t convincingly show that any of the witnesses were actually credible, he made a ton of arguments from ignorance, and he was really only able to reframe Trent’s objections rather than properly quell them.

[@dennygreen322]

@@MedCatIncorporated I disagree, Jacob made a great case for the witnesses and he was much more accurate than Trent’s feeble attempt at google scholarship.

[@pintswithaquinas]

What was your favorite moment from the Debate!? Drop the timestamp below!

[@clearstonewindows]

1:39:38 Proving something is divinely inspired When Trent destroys his whole argument about the Book of Mormon when he tries to explain why he believes the bible is true.

[@Drawn-by-Abundance]

1:00:33 cross examination

[@AQuienIremos-tk6py]

Both opening statements were fire. Very well done! Good job with the moderating and keeping it fair! 3:32

[@savedby_grace6110]

Mark Twain's comment about the book of Mormon!😅😅😂😂

[@Amy-t4s]

"Exactly what was going on in that hat we don't know."

[@halcyonpanzer1562]

Ive been looking forward to this. So hyped it out.

[@carbonmfg]

Great job! I'm biased and have full respect for how they both hit hard. Well done both of you, that's awesome.

[@bradwitbeck]

It was awesome seeing a believing Latter-day Saint being brought on to defend his position. Thanks for hosting this guys ❤ Hopefully we can all understand one another a little better as we all strive to come to know Christ.

[@matthewschmidt5069]

Rejecting Christ as the Incarnate Word does not draw you closer to him. Sorry but Mormonism is completely opposed to all that was passed down by the Apostles. Repent and believe in the Gospel.

[@jordan5113]

Haha, let me know when you find someone who rejects Christ as "The Word" and I'll tell them.

[@branten123]

You clearly don't know much about Mormonism. Do some research before commenting. ​@@matthewschmidt5069

[@matthewschmidt5069]

@jordan5113 Mormons. Or at least the ones who pick and choose what to believe from Nicaea like Jacob said.

[@clearstonewindows]

Ink, We never get the chance to talk about out own faith. Everyone is too Scared

[@mattparksmusic]

A real, formal debate on KZbin! What a breath of fresh air, and a great way to actually hear the ideas out!

[@johnnychikko3800]

Catholic here- I’m pretty sure that Jacob wanted to steer clear of a debate topic like Early Church fathers view on Theosis or the alleged “keys” left the earth Apostacy in the pre and post apostolic patristic age so Jacob already had a one up imo. Trent did give strong points but Jacob came off most learned on the Topic of the debate. Shocker. LOL. Id love to see a run back on the Great Apostasy ❤

[@nealljones]

Questions were all over the place. They should have focused on the BoM. Jacob has successfully debated on the Trinity before. They should do a round 2 on that subject. Or invite Blake Ostler.

[@scottm4975]

Ya I respect Trent’s points, but it would take a lot more research to know the history better than someone like Jacob. And Trent has been diving deep on everything so it’s understandable he so not as familiar with it.

[@danielstark8356]

The debate was about The Book of Mormon, not the early church fathers.

[@johnnychikko3800]

@@danielstark8356 I agree. That is why I said before the debate that maybe an Ex-Mo turned Catholic would have been most suited for this particular subject. Jeremey Christiansen and others come to mind.

[@johnnychikko3800]

@@nealljones I would have much rather liked to see a debate on why Joseph Smith allegedly needed to restore the Church. My guess it is similar to every other American restorationist positions but maybe the LDS perspective has a different apologetics about the subject.

[@saralyg]

This debate was very interesting… but it also highlighted to me the reason that when a Mormon deconstructs their faith most of the time they end up atheist. While the Bible does have much more evidence to it and millenniums of scholarship, it is reasonable to ask the same questions about it that are asked of the BOM. While I do not agree with the stance, I can understand how someone comes to the conclusion that if I was duped by the BOM and the LDS faith then it’s all hogwash. I will pray for all those who are struggling with their faith 🙏🏻 St. Thomas, Pray for Us!!

[@CapnMal]

I agree with your prayer, and this is a problem for many former LDS. However, the deconstruction of faith is not a uniquely Mormon challenge; it is happening to churches all over. There are many who become atheist because their eyes are open to the scholarly secular conclusions about the Bible and Christian history that lead so many to become atheist, or severely diluted in their faith in scripture and in the church. There are unique reasons Mormons deconstruct their faith, but it is usually NOT the same reasons that are driving so many out in other churches. Instead, the more LDS are educated about modern biblical scholarship, the stronger their faith tends to be. Many, many more LDS who are not convinced at all by the arguments of classical Christianity are nonetheless faithful believers in Jesus because of the independent witness of the Book of Mormon: if one considers the BOM true, then Jesus is absolutely the Lord Jehovah, Son of God, and bodily resurrected -- central tenants of the Christian Faith. So even though traditional Christians make a few stronger claims about who Jesus is than LDS do, at least (from a traditional viewpoint) a believer in the BOM has not abandoned Jesus. I think this is one reason to unite together as Christian Churches, and one way traditional Christianity can come to see the Book of Mormon as a positive influence, even though they do not consider it scripture.

[@fezzik8785]

Im a mostly former mormon who is putting my toe in the water of coming back. Ive also been through rcia (didnt get baptized) and attend mass semi regularly. Looking forward to this

[@danjohnson8556]

C’mon back, the water is fine.

[@KyleStenson]

Come back. I left for 14 years. Deeply studied every pro and con, considered all sources, and looked elsewhere. This really is Christ's restored church.

[@jakeharmer1068]

Just dipping a toe isn't enough...full immersion like Jesus! :)

[@budgillett]

Come on back spiritual sibling

[@jhssuthrnmama]

@@fezzik8785 Christ is waiting for you in the He founded and never abandoned, not an imposter invented in the 1800s. Come home.

[@Lbrack]

Thank you both, I am grateful that two opposing philosophies can come together and discuss ideas.

[@aaronm1466]

I love the Catholic Church. Trent Horn, Alvin Plantinga and so much of my family are Catholics. My best friends down the street here in Utah are Catholic. Great job Jacob! I have read the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I believe both to be from the revealed God of the Heavens. I love Jesus Christ and do my best to follow Him.

[@Grandlett]

Both cannot be revealed from heaven because mormons think God and Jesus are 2 distinct beings whereas Catholics believe God is 3 persons and one being. A difference that foundational could not be from the same source.

[@jakeharmer1068]

​@@Grandlettwhen Christ prays that his followers may be one with the father as He is one with the father, what could that possibly mean? We all become ethereal? Or maybe they are one in purpose, in desire, in perfection, and we hope to become like Them.

[@natedawg2020]

I was surprised how many times Jacob had to correct Trent on the historical context of the quotes and points that Trent was using. I feel like Trent knew just enough to have an argumentative conversation. I have a hard time trusting people who argue passionately without doing research.

[@DisipleofYoshoa]

I’m a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I love Trent and Jacob. They are both men of honor and virtue. They make the world a better place. 😊

[@Thedisciplemike]

Really? Jacob seems insufferable.

[@georgerafa5041]

​@@ThedisciplemikeMormon apologists always are.

[@fightingfortruth9806]

Jacob was awesome. He only seemed insufferable because Trent got his nose bloodied.

[@Thedisciplemike]

@@fightingfortruth9806 i didnt see any bloody nose

[@DisipleofYoshoa]

You find opposition insufferable because they create cognitive dissonance. Dissonance leads to fear, which leads to anger and hate, but love casts out fear. I see the good in both Jacob and Trent and I have no fear. I seek the truth with love and humility. I lean on the Lord and he fills me with love.

[@jessefausett2945]

Great job to all who participated I think it was wonderful to hear. Perspectives on both sides and reach across the I’ll care about one another.

[@maegangreen5019]

Absolutely loved this!!!! Would love to see more stuff like this in the future ❤

[@StJimmy501]

Really enjoyed this debate and the interview you both did a day or two ago. I'm LDS but I haven't been to church in a while. In the mean time I've watched hours and hours of Catholic content like Pints, Council of Trent and Lila Rose's podcast. I could see myself becoming Catholic one day. You guys make a lot of sense and I enjoy your commentary on all topics. However, I can't say enough good things about my upbringing in the LDS Church and about the good people there. I'm at a crossroads I suppose.

[@smartismarti4049]

God bless you on your walk. What I loved about Isaac Hess's interview on Pints was how he said that he loved growing up Mormon. He didn't have angry, negative things to say about his family or community. Oddly enough, it freed me from some pressure to be bitter toward people. I have found a beauty, depth, and cohesion of truth in the Catholic church, but that doesn't make my LDS family less good. They're wrong, but still good.

[@captainsirk1173]

I’d be more tempted to consider the Catholic faith if not for the teachings portraying a fundamentally incomprehensible God paired with the demand that I must properly comprehend God in order to be saved. I think I could live with not being LDS if I didn’t have to believe all LDS people are in for eternal damnation due to that sort of misconception.

[@StJimmy501]

​@@captainsirk1173 From everything I have learned about Catholicism, I think it is probably true. Logically I think it makes more sense. The only thing holding me back is that I feel at home in the LDS faith. My family is all Mormon, my community is all Mormon, when I'm in a crowd of Mormons, I feel like these are my people. That's what I mean.

[@perd8777]

@@StJimmy501I pray you come home to the Catholic Church. I would seek out a priest and join RCIA, you don’t have to become Catholic at the end of it. But you will learn so much. I think building a church community can really help you with your journey. ❤️

[@StJimmy501]

@@perd8777 💙

[@nathanL22]

Dude Trent's patience in Jacob's cross examination is absolutely telling of his character

[@Jerome616]

Yep,

[@emreakkaya6400]

yeah, he kept interrupting Trent. actually annoyed me quite a lot

[@nathanielscreativecollecti6392]

It was also telling that Jacob probably didn't have as much debate experience.

[@grond21]

It was nice to see an inexperienced debater go up against an experienced one. The hard part was that Jacob was using the shotgun effect and making it difficult for Trent to respond to anything at all, so it seems like he was winning in argumentation. When in reality all that was happening is he was the only one talking

[@library.voices]

In general, when someone is arguing their points excitably, it’s hard to convey your story to those relying on logic. Not that religion needs to be logical, but it definitely pushes those people away. The love of Christ and our belief in the good news can make us emotional, and I understand how dangerous it may feel to have your worldview challenged. I don’t buy into the Mormon religion, although I cannot deny that the people that live a Mormon life tend to be very pleasant. But 0.212% of the population vs 17.67% Catholic population have a smaller chance of showcasing negative effects based on number of probability alone. Love Trent Horn, God bless Jacob, and Matt Fradd I’m such a huge fan!!! Pints with Aquinas is my favorite channel, I listen to your Catholic lofi on here and on Hallow :) I am a former Protestant -> New Age -> Converting Catholic and this channel has been the most helpful avenue to enriching my curiosity and understanding of the fruits of Christ and Catholicism. Would love to see more apologetic debates and discussions 🤍✝️🕊️

[@Thegreateyeinthesky]

I can’t wait for the deuterocomical episode on this!

[@boo-boo3319]

I thought Trent would destroy Jacob but he held his own. Well done Jacob!

[@Aaron-SLC]

Nah trent poked good holes. I was lds. The stuff he pretend stands up doesnt

[@boo-boo3319]

@@Aaron-SLC yeah I was as well actually, I think Trent won as well. I’m just saying Jacob didn’t get destroyed like I thought he would.

[@darrincrapo6340]

Love this debate, I came away from this even more convinced of the truthfulness of the restored gospel

[@GwPoKo]

​@@Aaron-SLC let me guess. You read the ces letter and didn't check it?

[@cass_cat]

As a Catholic and ex-Mormon, I am so grateful for the Catholic apologetics coming out recently specifically countering Mormonism. When I was converting, I felt like all my questions were coming out of left field for people since most of the apologetics was toward a Protestant audience. Of course, the truth prevailed thanks be to god, but I am so happy to see this for future converts coming home to Rome!

[@CollinBoSmith]

I thought the Mormon made a strong case on a lot of the evidence for the supernatural origins of the Book of Mormon and Mormonism. I wonder if the stronger argument against Mormonism would be to remain agnostic on its supernatural origins and focus more on whether it contradicts the faith of Jesus and the apostles.

[@educationalporpoises9592]

Isn't another case simply that miracles have never been the sole basis of whether or not we know something comes from God? It is known that demons also perform miracles, so whether or not the miracles of Mormonism are real is a bit of a non-starter. I suppose the Pharisees said the same of Christ in his life, but Christ demonstrated power over death and the power to forgive sins, specifically from His own energies.

[@jcers]

@@educationalporpoises9592 miracles provide motives of credibility to Revelation and things like extraordinary mission. Even according to Paul, the Resurrection is the proof that Christ provided true revelation. Read St. Francis de Sales’ “The Catholic Controversy”.

[@basedsigmalifter9482]

Yeah I think that the question can be first answered by if historical Christianity/ Catholicism is true. If it is, the Book of Mormon cannot be inspired, and there must exist a natural explanation.

[@AmazingTheScott]

@@educationalporpoises9592 yeah but using this logic how can you know the Bible itself is true? You didn’t witness the miracles you just read about them allegedly happening. You either choose to believe it or you felt a spiritual witness that the bible is true. Mormons take the same position on the BoM.

[@Gearthirty]

Trent did a good job, but he stuck with most of the standard criticisms against The Book of Mormon. For someone honestly curious about whether the book is truly from God, those talking points can be reasonably explained, and Jacob did a decent job addressing some of those, especially given the time constraints. For those that have made up their mind already, no argument will be sufficient. The reason most people use these talking points instead of the doctrinal route is because the doctrinal teachings and evidences of The Book of Mormon align quite well with and support The Bible. To argue that Catholicism is correct (as some suggest) and therefore The Book of Mormon cannot be would put Trent on the defensive if Jacob were to criticize the Catholic church (lots of amazing things in the Catholic Church, but also plenty to criticize). I think Trent would probably prefer to give the criticism instead of play defense. Overall I thought both Trent and Jacob did quite well and I didn’t see an obvious winner or loser. Edit: I rewatched much of the debate paying closer attention to the arguments, rebuttals, etc. and I think Jacob clearly won. Both sides had some weak moments but Trent clearly made so many more fallacious arguments and was unwilling to concede to any of Jacob’s clearly logical arguments. Jacob wasn’t perfect, but he did better at avoiding fallacy than Trent. Speaking strictly from a debate performance perspective, keeping religious bias separate, I thought it was clear that Jacob did better. One thing that was a bit of a tell was that later in the debate, Trent got sloppy and resorted to snarky remarks instead of reason and evidence. Jacob did a pretty good job at sticking to facts and reasoned arguments throughout the debate.

[@newglof9558]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="2035">33:55</a> I think Jacob misunderstood Trent's "Catholicism is true" argument. Trent's point was that the LDS Church is reliant on the Sacred Scripture given to it by the Catholic Church, the same Catholic Church that declares no further revelation such as the Book of Mormon. Jacob's points so far are interesting but that particular rebuttal was weak sauce. It's also interesting that, on the contrary to Trent arguing like an atheist, Jacob is arguing like one. Jacob, you hold the Bible to be Sacred Scripture just like we do. It makes no sense to undermine it, even if you say "well this is to expose Trent's alleged double standard".

[@thekolobsociety]

We don’t believe the canon the Catholic Church gave us correct.

[@startthinking4902]

The Book of Mormon does not undermine the Bible; it clarifies it. Read it and find out for yourself.

[@newglof9558]

​@@startthinking4902I understand that's the Mormon position, but Jacob was very clearly undermining the Bible in multiple spots here. In attempting to get Trent to argue like an atheist, Jacob did it himself.

[@newglof9558]

​@@thekolobsocietyAt this point it just devolves into a "is the deutercanon inspired" debate. Though whether you adopt the Vulgate canon or masoretic canon, the point still lends against the LDS' Great Apostasy regardless.

[@camronbrewer8994]

He's just proving the point that the ancient Scripture is correct. It's by the spirit that we can know of the truth of all things.... The point is to not forget to ask God himself like in James 1:5.

[@ben_wright]

When I was 20, I was confronted with a few evidences as to why the Book of Mormon was not true. This really bothered me, as up to that point, I had more or less blindly believed the book to be true. I ultimately decided to pray and genuinely ask God if it was true. The experience that followed will live with me forever. Immediately, after asking God, I felt the loving arms of my heavenly father embracing me. This experience lasted maybe a few minutes, but it has cemented my testimony and belief in the book of Mormon. While I think “evidences” of the Book of Mormon are cool, they are not why I believe its words. It’s teachings, words, and lessons bring me peace and happiness like nothing else. It invites the Holy Ghost into my life and home. I am so grateful for the book of Mormon and I encourage anyone curious about it to simply pick it up, read it, and pray about it.

[@bethanyjohnson8001]

This sort of testimony I find rather troubling. I am a lover of truth. All my life I have been taught to follow the evidence where it leads, to seek truth above all else. I have observed many people being unable to accept some fact as true because of some emotional reason. Many people are unable to believe in a Creator because of some emotional pain or other reason making them unable to evaluate the logical arguments for the existence of God. I think that choosing to believe in something like the Book of Mormon, for the sole reason that one underwent an emotional, subjective experience is problematic. I think there ought to more concrete reasons in addition to that upon which one should base their beliefs about the nature of God and the Church He established. Every Mormon missionary who has come to our family's door has ultimately fallen back on "Just read this book and pray. If you feel a warm fuzzy feeling in your heart, that is the voice of God telling you our religion is the true one." It would be so easy to convince oneself one way or the other by unconsciously manipulating one's emotions (My mom promised to read it, did so, and told me that nothing about the experience caused her to question her faith in her Catholic Christian faith). Evidence and rational argumentation should, I think, play also an important role in determining one's beliefs and are not to be discarded. If I were LDS, I hope I would want to base my belief on things outside of the Book of Mormon itself. There is nothing within the text itself to prove the truth of Mormonism. Many Muslims will claim that the Qu'ran itself is the proof for the truth of Islam, because only God could have been the origin for such a beautiful book. If you just read it and pray about it, you would see the truth, they would say. However, I think the evidence for Christianity far outweighs the evidence for Islam and that Islam has many, many problematic issues logically and historically that point to its being a false religion. I have no doubt that God is doing great things in the lives of members of the Mormon faith. That does not mean I will not continue to think they are missing the fullness of the faith that is found in the Catholic Church.

[@ben_wright]

⁠@@bethanyjohnson8001appreciate your comment. I might add my experience was far outside just a normal emotional experience. It was something far greater than I have ever felt before. Since then I have felt some similar feelings during sacred and special moments of my life. For example, holding my son for the first time. I wouldn’t discredit the very real feelings that our heavenly father gives us - rather I would say they are the single greatest evidence we can receive. How wonderful it is that despite misinformation, knowledge lost to time, and so called “contracting evidences”, our father genuinely wants us to come back to him and will provide us with the feelings and inspiration to do so if we simply ask for it. Gods love for you and I is real. Is there anything greater than that? Knowing the creator of the universe is on our team and helping us get back to him every day. I love the gospel of Jesus Christ and I’m grateful for the Book of Mormon as it’s another testament of gods love for his children.

[@Aaron-SLC]

Where in the bible does it say feelings determine truth. Thats how jospeh smith got men to commit adultery. How many people showed up to to utah lied to not knowing the lds church practice polygamy. John taylor got up in a debate and lied about polygamy when he had several wives. He was in his 50s and married a 15/16 year old as a another wife. Mormonism over its long history teaches a fake christ and gets mormons to commit heinous sins without ever coming to know the true christ

[@noself7889]

I agree and believe what you said. I think people are to caught up in trying to prove religions right or wrong. I found truth in Buddhism and have had similar experiences as yours although mine were not really connected to a religion per se but a deep understanding of that something deeper within myself that some call God. I think people are attracted to the religion that makes sense to them and one that resonates with their heart. I am a Buddhist, my best friend is LDS and my mom is a JW. None of us need to change and I highly believe we will all stay right where we are at because those teaching from all three religions resonates with each one of our hearts in an individual way. The most important thing is does our faith transform our hearts and does it make us happier and better human beings. The other important thing is do we live moral, ethical and virtuous lives? If our beliefs help us to do so, then we are following the right path for us. ☸️☯️🕉️☦️ Ones choice of religion is an individual pursuit, and will always remain so.

[@Dylan_Devine]

I had the same experience with Catholicism, and I'm sure many had similar experiences with other religions entirely like Islam. Truth is not contingent on feelings, but facts. If it were contingent on warm fuzzy feelings, then you have a problem, because the same God who told me Catholicism was true can't contradict Himself by telling you that Mormonism is true. We should stick to the evidence.

[@1LeMec]

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ I appreciated the setting and moderator. I found this faith affirming. Being familiar with the subject manner, I simply found the arguments against the BoM made by the Catholic brother un compelling. You could tell he wasn’t well versed in the subject matter. (Text of the Book of Mormon, statements of the witnesses, evidences, etc). But not being of our faith I think it’s understandable why he wouldn’t be. An interesting format for sure. Thanks to our Catholic friends for the forum, debate, and conversation.

[@Heinrich.Denzinger]

May God bless Trent Horn

[@paulblack1799]

... because he seriously needs it. 😅

[@calledtorome]

@@paulblack1799actually we all need God’s blessing, so your attempt to make a snide comment doesn’t work. God especially bless Trent because he works to spread the truth.

[@SurferNYC]

@@paulblack1799 found the Mormon

[@jope2123]

He'll recover don't worry 😅

[@camronbrewer8994]

Amen. Coming from an LDS person. Great guy!!

[@Ralph419]

Jacob's statement about lack of evidence for the book of Exodus does not change the fact that ancient people in the Middle East told such stories. Evidence proves that those stories, whether based on true events or not, have in fact been told for thousands of years. The same cannot be said about evidence for the Book of Mormon being a record of ancient people in the Americas.

[@Jerome616]

Heck we can’t even find the stories (amongst the native Americans)!

[@MasonPayne]

Please look up Chief Midegah.

[@Ralph419]

@@MasonPayne The individual you refer to as Chief Midegah does not represent the Little Shell Tribe of Chippewa Indians of Montana, nor does he represent any other federally recognized tribe.

[@jimmybobco]

Excellent point

[@awfulwaffle1341]

I’m on Jacob’s side but have to admit that Trent gave a terrific debate performance. Jacob was at a disadvantage because he had the burden of proof and had to be on defense much of the time.

[@mascotbenches5146]

I think we should hear the same argument about the Bible. I have always found it interesting that no one questions the Bible and it's authenticity.....I know those that don't believe it do but the whole of the Christian world does not seem to even wrestle with having to show it. It's truth is not necessarily self evident unless your world view just goes along with it.

[@EpoRose1]

@@mascotbenches5146”Its truth is not necessarily self-evident.” Well, would that be Sola Scriptura then? Because Catholics don’t believe in that.

[@TheJeh1]

@@mascotbenches5146 I think Trent gave an argument: 1. You make no assumption of the Bible being inspired or not. 2. Using the Bible and other sources as purely secular material, you establish that Jesus rose from the dead and founded a Church with the ability to teach infallibly. 3. You observe that the Church infallibly teaches the Scriptures are inspired. 4. Therefore, the Scriptures are inspired.

[@georgerafa5041]

​@@mascotbenches5146Trent and Joe Heshemeyer have done tons of videos on that lol. Just search their names and Bible true

[@kylelemke]

@@awfulwaffle1341 as a Catholic that is relatively familiar with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I’d say that the premise of them debating the Book of Mormon’s authenticity is equivalent to a Catholic and Protestant arguing over the deuterocanonical books. It’s a hard debate when a Catholic and a Latter-Day Saint disagree on the validity of authority of each religion. Although it was a good debate, we could see the debate drifting that way. I think debating the concept of The Great Apostasy would have been a better debate because then it gets at the more deeper conflict between the two faiths. I agree the affirmative position usually has a bit of a disadvantage, but I feel like the burden of proof is easier for both to explain and debunk in a debate like that if I make any sense.

[@SacaPuuntas]

Grew up Catholic and Converted to the LDS faith as an adult. What a great debate. Appreciate my old Catholic family and grateful for my Newer LDS faith. So many shared values. I hope these two can get together to really flesh out the subjects brought up in more of a discussion format. So many topics of interest to exhaust!

[@kbbtt]

Sucker

[@thay2829]

Trent, thank you for putting so much effort into this-I know you did. I am currently reverting little by little to the Catholic faith after a conversion to Mormonism. I never knew the faith as well as I’ve been learning now, and a lot of that is because of you and Matt. I know it wasn’t your best debate, but you are absolutely right-the fact that the Catholic Church is true IS a strong argument against Mormonism. It’s actually THE main point. The Church was established 2,000 years ago, and the keys of the priesthood were never lost. There’s nothing to be restored-especially when it contradicts what was already known to be true. That’s it.

[@dcarts5616]

@@thay2829 I’ve heard many say JS and LDS aren’t valid due to their fruits, and they bring up polygamy, printing press burning, supposed racism, and mountain meadows. May I ask how Catholics stand proud and claim validity after the crusades, after fornicating popes, little boy diddlng popes (not from recent time, I’m talking during 5th and 16th centuries), indulgences (massive fraud and mistrust of taught doctrines), pope (gods voice to Catholics) Boniface Vlll and his boy abuse, adultery etc, among many other wicked wicked popes, murder of Tyndale and I could go on. How does this get explained away and validity maintained by Catholics? I love my catholic friends and family, I’m not attacking, but I’m curious of the double standard.

[@Jerome616]

@@dcarts5616 You mean, the catholic church is made up of humans... I'm shocked I tell you! Shocked!

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

If the Catholic Church were true, I would expect apostolic keys to still be utilized within the Church. There are no prophets. There are no apostles. There is only a Pope or head Bishop that claims no revelatory authority outside the closed cannon. If it doesn't match the structure of the New Testament Church, how can it be true? How would you not know they are just making things up?

[@thay2829]

​@@jacobsamuelson3181 Because the need for new prophets and apostles ended with the fullness of revelation in Jesus Christ. Christ Himself is the final revelation. The Church's mission is to pass down that revelation, not create new ones. The Pope continues the line of apostolic succession that started with Peter when Christ made him the rock of His Church (Matthew 16:18). As Peter's successor, the Pope has the authority to interpret and apply revelation-not to make things up. In fact, the LDS church's claim to "restore" the Church with new prophets and apostles centuries after Christ’s ascension seems far more suspicious. The real question is, how do YOU know these modern prophets aren’t just "making things up," especially given the doctrinal changes and inconsistencies over time? Cause let’s be real, it’s way more inconsistent. Christ promised the gates of hell wouldn’t prevail against His Church. Sure, it would face attacks from inside and out (and it does), but a “great apostasy” isn’t possible given the line of succession-just as Christ said. Just like He said there’s no marriage in heaven, which happens to be the Mormons' favorite fairytale. There’s nothing to restore, especially not 1800 years later by some random American with a questionable past.

[@Jerome616]

@@jacobsamuelson3181 you are defining the keys in your way, we don’t look at them this way.

[@martharadocy]

Trent Horn, you did it again! Every time I hear you, not only speak,but the Way you speak, you inspire me and solidify my belief that the Catholic Church is indeed the church Jesus Christ instituted ~2000 years ago. Now, can you please get a hold of a member of the governing body of the Jehovas witnesses, and conduct the same kind of debate…. Thank you for all that you do for our faith. Peace & blessings to you 🙏🏻

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

What debate would you want to see with Jehova's Witness? (BTW The faithful JW's would never go on social platforms on video to debate people.)

[@emilybacon5456]

I feel like the main question here is if the Book of Mormon is divine. It’s highly plausible Joseph Smith had gold plates, but that doesn’t prove it’s divinity. This was a very good debate that had some interesting points on both sides! Well done both of you!

[@jessicarandall4016]

There's so much positivity and respect on both sides surrounding this, I love it.

[@HauxYZ250]

I was pretty surprised at the strength of Jacob’s opening statement. He provided some interesting historical claims that I am going to have to go investigate myself. I’ve never really been presented with the historical claims of Smith that are supposedly accurate. Also, the Mormons I know do seem to show genuine fruit of the spirit. With all that said, Jacob’s follow-up arguments and responses were less convincing. I would love to have a discussion with Trent but I would hate to have to debate him! That was a great video!

[@HauxYZ250]

Also, Jacob was very good at directing his half of the cross examination. After watching the debate, I think Jacob could pretty easily win a debate against a less prepared Christian than Trent.

[@joneill3dg]

Also Jacob: "why is is reasonable to think that the book of Exodus is inspired" Trent: "Because Jesus thought that it was and because His church says that it is" As a protestant, I just want to offer a yes and amen to that. Probably my favorite part of the debate so far.

[@juliabendixen2184]

Which is also the exact same reason - another reason- that Latter-day Saints say the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired. Because Jesus and His church say it is. (So you see… I agree that both the Bible and Book of Mormon are divinely inspired)

[@joneill3dg]

The issue is that there is no record of Jesus saying the BOM is divinely inspired. Also, His church explicitly denies its inspiration. So what you’re saying doesn’t match the facts in this instance.

[@smp5343]

@@juliabendixen2184 you missed the entire point 😆 🤣 you definitely are Mormon

[@Landoor]

Trent REALLY went to work here. This is probably one of his best performances I’ve seen, really happy for him

[@timothyfowers]

I agree, I've never seen Jacob so uncomfortable. I grew up Mormon and Trent knew alot more than I did. And remember Trent isn't a member, so to do the kind of research he did to refute Jacob shows alot of dedication, hes not faking these rebuttals, they are well though lt out and logical. Could Jacob respond to the history of the Catholic Church in the same way? I don't think so. I don't know Trent's background but if he can be this well versed he has a very strong ability to absorb Information, not to mention he comes hard with facts and not emotion. Absolutely love his style and find him convincing. Even if you are a believing LDS member you can't ignore him.

[@Landoor]

@@timothyfowers yea. Jacob didn’t do bad by any means, but I feel as though Trent showed he was the better debater here, ESPECIALLY in cross examination.

[@Gearthirty]

Did we watch the same debate? I watched it the first time and came away feeling like maybe Jacob had the edge, but pretty even really. I went back and watched much of it again and realized how poor Trent’s arguments and rebuttals were. He just ignored most of Jacob’s arguments, and most of his own arguments were quite weak and relatively easily addressed by Jacob. The second time I watched it I thought Jacob was the clear winner.

[@Landoor]

@@Gearthirty i hope so. My problem with Jacob is that he says Trent would argue like an atheist, then continues to argue like a Muslim. He says multiple things that don’t prove that the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired. He looked uncomfortable and twitchy during cross examination, and Trent looked extremely relaxed and answered amazingly, even with Jacob interrupting him multiple times. I don’t understand what I’m supposed to get from Jacob, his logic can be applied to any new “divine revelation” that people find, which can end up to be extremely dangerous. Jacob did pretty poor in my opinion.

[@timothyfowers]

@@Gearthirty well, could Jacob debate Trent as well about Catholic doctrine?

[@woodwarddlw]

Excellent debate. Thank you very much

[@tylerahlstrom4553]

As a Latter-day Saint I can say Trent is an excellent debater and his willingness to actually speak to a Latter-day Saint rather than an ex-member speaks a lot to his good character. However, I feel he relied on a lot of not-so-excellent sources. The witnesses’ testimony of The Book of Mormon is quite strong. All those quotes he used saying Martin was a religious fanatic and talked with a deer and only saw the plates under a cloth or with spiritual eyes come from 2nd and 3rd hand accounts from people antagonistic to the Church. All the first hand accounts are very direct and clear and none of them ever denied it. Trent also indicated Joseph took from View of the Hebrews. When you actually compare the books, you’ll see that the similarities are pretty contrived and superficial. Critics for years have been trying to find some source that Joseph may have plagiarized, or by which he was at least influenced, but they have yet to produce a viable candidate. Saying chiasmus occur in Dr. Seuss books, so it is not that impressive that they appear in the Book of Mormon is also a pretty bad argument. Compare these chiasmus and you’ll see there is no comparison. The Book of Mormon contains long, clear, detailed chiasmus that no one would question as authentic if these were found in the Bible. The Kinderhook plates showing Joseph is a fraud is also not a great argument. Look at FAIR’s response to this from Don Bradley. Joseph was merely comparing a character on a plate with one from his Egyptian characters book. No attempt at a spiritual translation. There are thousands of additional evidences that support the Book of Mormon, but Jacob did a good job with the time he had. I wish more were mentioned, such as all the Hebrewisms in the Book of Mormon such as if/and statements or simile curses. Knowledge of olive tree cultivation that Joseph would not have known. Consistency in always going up to Jerusalem when entering and down from Jerusalem when leaving. Almost all American tribes describing a God who descended among them and taught them peace. The many parallels between the Book of Mormon with ancient mesoAmerican customs. Brian Stubbs work on the similarities between Uto-Aztecan languages with ancient Semitic languages. After studying both the evidence and the criticisms of the Book of Mormon, I have come away firmly convinced that the evidence stacks strongly in favor of the authenticity of its truthfulness. Joseph could not of written such complexities, nobody in his time could have. The only explanation is divine intervention.

[@mycatwould]

Me too. 47 years in the Church. My ancestors were close friends with Joseph and Emma and I have their written history which includes personal experiences with the prophet, other ancestors who were driven by mobs from their homes, escaping the Haun’s Mill massacre and having to walk miles in the snow without proper shoes for themselves or their children and writing of the bloody footprints left in the snow - yet they would not deny the truthfulness of the restored gospel. Their faith and conviction has driven me to study more about the prophet Joseph, the history of the early church, the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, and the validity of the claim that this is the true Church of Jesus Christ, and every claim against it makes me more curious. And after all these years, I believe, from the combined witnesses of study, prayer, and both physical and spiritual witnesses that the Book of Mormon is indeed an inspired text, and by extension Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God in the latter-days, and that he was an instrument in God’s hand in restoring the Church of Jesus Christ, built again on the foundations of apostles and prophets, with Christ himself as the chief cornerstone.

[@BehavingBradly]

Fantastic comment to expand on some of the points that didn't get properly explored. Thanks.

[@bheer98]

Isn't it a marvelous thing that we, the audience, have the capability to read The Book of Mormon and determine if the claims Jacob and Trent make about them are valid?

[@brendansheehan6180]

@bheer98 No thanks. I'm a Christian. We don't imagine that Christians stopped existing except in some invisible way until the 1800's.

[@JazzyJacksJokeShack]

Yeah I read 3rd Nephi and it made me believe the book was a forgery The gospels are 100000x better

[@bheer98]

@@JazzyJacksJokeShack have you read Jacob chapter 5 about the allegory of the vineyard? Or King Benjamin's sermon in Mosiah? Or the complex war strategies in Alma, even? If so, I would love to know what was forged there. The thing about Trent's argument is that it only applies to a small percentage of the entire book. Listening to what he said, it's clear to me that if he read The Book of Mormon at all, it was only a few excerpts or chapters here and there. He frequently cites other people's opinions about it but doesn't clearly give his own review of what's inside.

[@JazzyJacksJokeShack]

@@bheer98 coincidentally I flipped to a random page this morning and read the last chapter of Mosiah. Talking about inequality, democracy, and "land of liberty" really struck home that it was an American writing

[@bheer98]

@@JazzyJacksJokeShack one of my favorite verses from that chapter: "Therefore, if it were possible that you could have just men to be your kings, who would establish the laws of God, and judge this people according to his commandments, yea, if ye could have men for your kings who would do even as my father Benjamin did for this people-I say unto you, if this could always be the case then it would be expedient that ye should always have kings to rule over you."

[@_eemjee_]

the way Trent's face turned red when Jacob won't let him finish with his answer, (HE NEVER LET HIM FINISH!!) and yet he smiled and remained calm 😅😅 Jacob looks like a kind person though.

[@GuyRicheyGibbons]

I wish we could all bring it in for a big group hug right about now. :) Good job moderating, Matt! I just want to share my witness of God’s love. I’ve felt it reading Christ’s words in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon. Same warm, overflowing feeling of joy, gratitude, and humility. I don’t know how that works but I know that I am emboldened to try and follow Jesus more/better when I read scripture. The other stuff kind of looks like noise when I think about it. I feel close to Him when I read and follow what the scriptures teach. Simple. God will help us figure out the rest. I just need to keep trying to seek and do HIS will.

[@j.d.westphal6949]

Jacob’s closing statement…. AMEN 🙏🏼

[@orthodoxychloroquine7352]

😂😂. Terrible.

[@shbsuri]

I grew up Mormon, went on a mission to Busan, Korea, my dad was a stake president, and studied Mormonism at the college level at BYU. I am now Catholic, and mainly left Mormonism from what I learned about its history and doctrinal inconsistency. Most of my family are still Mormon, and I appreciate it being given a fair hearing. Most Mormons won’t look into facts about its history because they think it’s just anti-Mormon propaganda. Giving them a fair hearing helps get the truth to them. Thanks for this.

[@Jerome616]

Amen to that!

[@souptime6954]

@@shbsuri I would push back on that - as a faithful Latter Day Saint who has studied extensively “anti Mormon” literature, I have come to very different conclusions. In my opinion, the vast majority of this anti literature is very well responded to by members and scholars of the church. I would say that the bigger part of those who leave the church neglect to review and consider the counterclaims made by the faithful lds. But sometimes two people can see the same information and come to very different conclusions

[@Isaac_Hess]

There's a basic misunderstanding (by all parties) about what witness testimony does for us in the act of faith. I don't know of any Mormon or Catholic who believes _because of_ the witness testimony. Mormons don't say, "I believe in the Book of Mormon because of the 3 (or 8) witnesses." Similarly, Catholics don't actually believe _simply because_ some credible witnesses went around saying that they had seen Jesus's resurrection. In both cases, the act of faith occurs within us for deeper reasons. It isn't a purely intellectual process. Witness testimony provides, in Catholic terms, "motives of credibility" for the act of faith, but they do not create the act of faith itself. For Mormonism, it is simply true that the testimony of the BoM witnesses _strengthens their case_ and is evidence in favor of the proposition that the BoM is true. So if we want to compare whether faith in the Book of Mormon is reasonable, vs faith in the resurrection, we can note that they both are supported by witness testimony that strengthens their case. (I'll just stipulate for now that the BoM witnesses are credible, which I think is very much up for debate, but let's just stipulate it.) But in both cases, that is not the _entire case_ and is only one small portion of a larger picture of whether belief in the proposition is credible. When one examines the full case for/against the BoM being historical, it is one of the most absurd propositions on offer. It is riddled with anachronisms (even the idea of a gold codex beginning in 600 BC is a massive anachronism), published by a con artist and sexual philanderer, is filled with 19th century theology, etc. etc. When viewed in total, the evidential support lent by the witnesses becomes overwhelmed by the sheer impossibility of the BoM being a historical document. For the resurrection, we similarly see that it supported by credible witness testimony. And, unlike the BoM, there simply is no evidence to undermine it (unless you have a philosophical objection against miracles). In short, we can be assured that when we are moved to the act of faith in the resurrection we are supported by good witness testimony, a host of other reasons to believe in Christ, and no defeaters. Belief in the BoM as a historical document is supported by witness testimony, but so overwhelmed by other defeaters that it is not a plausible belief.

[@daniallemmon5453]

This is spot on. Also, I loved your interview. God bless

[@ben8285]

Jesus didn't say "Go ye therefore and show archeological evidence and disprove anachronisms to all nations, etc..." That is not the way He intended his gospel to be taught or for people to come to belief. It's become a default for Christians today to argue this way but I don't know many who are converted by it. For example, how many people gave up wickedness and turned their heart to Christ after the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls? Maybe some, but it didn't seem to make much of a spiritual impact. But you can count millions who have changed their entire lives for the better after reading the testimony of Jesus in the Book of Mormon. Part of the power of the book is in the way it came forth. You can't rely on your own faculties or some harvard archeologist to bolster your testimony. You have to get on your knees and plead with the Lord. I think the Lord wants it this way (see Alma 32:17-19). I know the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph was a Prophet! I know it in the surest sense of knowing - by the power of the Holy Ghost. You can know it (or re-know it) too. Much love to you Isaac and your faith journey. You're welcome back any time.

[@Isaac_Hess]

@@ben8285 Thanks Ben. I don't disagree with much of what you wrote - indeed, it is quite compatible with my comment. I agree that evidence, in general, is not what inspires faith. Evidence can inspire a sort of "mere assent." But as James notes, "Even the demons believe-and shudder!" (James 2:19). God doesn't care that much about the content of our propositional knowledge - he cares about the faith and love that show in our lives. That being true, does it then mean the only means is to "get on your knees and plead with the Lord"? Not at all. In fact, the New Testament consistently warns against following personal spiritual experience apart from the authority of apostolic teaching. (See 1 John 4:1-6, 1 Thess 5:20-21, Galatians 1:6-9, etc.) The "spirits" move us to belief, but not every spirit is to be trusted. And the test given in scripture is whether the content of our belief matches the authority of apostolic teaching. When testing our belief for whether someone is a prophet, we must directly test their teachings and their personal conduct (Deut 13:1-3, Matt 7:21-23). Joseph Smith, and his so-called ancient productions (BoM, BoA, etc.) simply fail that test. God bless you, and in your charity, please pray for me.

[@ben8285]

@@Isaac_Hess Agree with most of your analysis there. My point is that the strongest witness (and the witness that I believe God wants us to rely most on) is the witness from the Holy Ghost. "Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee but... (you know the rest)" You bring up a good point that we can be deceived by demons, and we should beware. Joseph S. himself often worried about this and prayed for God's guidance and discernment. However, demons don't typically urge you to follow Jesus. As Jesus himself proclaimed "If Satan cast out Satan, how shall then his Kingdom stand?" It's clear to me (despite any sins of the Church's past or current leaders) the Church is not building up Satan's kingdom (to say the least). I also don't believe demons produce the fruits of the Spirit (as set forth in Galatians 5 and elsewhere). Satan may mimmick such experiences, but He doesn't (and can't) produce holiness, goodness, faith in Jesus, charity, etc... As one of many elements of my testimony, I rely on those experiences - hoping, trusting and praying that God will give me more and lead me home into His arms (the sinner that I am). God bless.

[@UponThisRockProductions]

@Isaac_Hess Wonderfully put! All throughout this debate I kept thinking back to your episode of pints with aquinas. Have you considered possibly breaking this debate down in a video? I'd love to hear more of your prospective of some of the points brought up here.

[@mikeelarsen1964]

That was a good debate. Props to both sides!

[@sheylamercado9801]

Catholic here, for ME I just cannot fathom that God would allow all that time where no one was being saved? It makes no sense (and God is not the author of confusion). Also, are Mormons saying Jesus lied when He said the gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church? These are tough things to swallow and I do not comprehend how Mormons can accept this. There’s many other things, but those are the biggest hurdles for me in believing the authenticity of LDS faith

[@amertlich]

I’m LDS and believe you don’t even need to have heard about Jesus in this life to be saved. Salvation is available to all who accept Christ whether in this life or the next. Christ’s gospel was not taken from the earth during the great apostasy, it was just the apostolic and prophetic authority that was lost. The priesthood authority to create covenantal bonds that are eternally binding is what was lost. The restoration of Temples and priesthood make it possible for those who have passed from mortality to receive this opportunity post mortally should they accept the ordinances done on their behalf.

[@jessekoeven3757]

1st Gates are not offensive instruments of war, they are defensive structures, they keep people out and keep people in. The Gates of Hell did not prevail because the Gospel, or Good news of redemption through Jesus, was preached to those who were dead, even as testified by Peter and Paul. The work of the church did not cease, God did not cease saving people or guiding them, but the Keys of authority and the religious organizational structure that held those Keys was decapitated when the apostles were martyred. The bishops did their best, but the authoritative and unified witness of the apostles was gone, and with it, a clear standard by which one could determine what was divinely inspired and what was not.

[@jakeharmer1068]

Please look into the LDS teaching of baptism for the dead (as referenced in the Bible). It clears this right up in a way that no other Christian religion does. No damned babies required.

[@jordanbraginton7640]

Just a few thoughts. One is that most people throughout the history of Christianity have never even heard the name of Christ. There has to be a means for all of those people to hear and accept the gospel. The LDS narrative hear is quite compelling, at least for me, and makes a lot of sense. I suppose my next thought is, what does it take for the Devil to prevail against the Church? Not super clear to me.

[@namordecai]

@@jordanbraginton7640 The mission of the Church is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Peter, James and John returned as angels to give Joseph Smith the priesthood. Peter was "the rock," and he didn't fail in his mission.

[@the.rogue.roman.77]

"Everyone thought Joseph Smith was a doofus" -- Actual quote from a LDS apologist

[@Anti-FragileSaints]

And now, the only way critics can seem to theorize any sort of naturalistic explanation for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is that Joseph Smith was a genius. The fact that people originally thought Joseph Smith was too dumb to write it himself is only a further testament to the book's divine origin and authenticity.

[@the.rogue.roman.77]

@@Anti-FragileSaints we don’t even know for sure that Joseph Smith wrote it himself, or if he did, we have no way of knowing he really did it in 2 months. The problem with your faith is that it rests on the authenticity of a book. The Catholic faith is not like that. The institution of the Church authenticates the Bible, not the other way around.

[@Anti-FragileSaints]

@@the.rogue.roman.77 And you rely on faith in the institution of the Church just like I rely on faith in the Book of Mormon. And the Catholic Church relies on faith in the Resurrection accounts and the eyewitness testimonies thereof. The truth of the Bible is what the Catholic Church is built on, just as the truth of both the Bible and the Book of Mormon is what the Restored Church of Jesus Christ was built on. The original naturalistic theories for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon by critics posited that Joseph Smith didn't write the book himself. Those sorts of theories have since been done away with because the evidence doesn't support that conclusion. For you to say "we don't know for sure that Joseph wrote it himself or that he wrote it in two months" is technically accurate but I could just as easily say the same for the Resurrection accounts or literally any of the stories of the Bible or literally any assertion about reality other than that I exist (hence the statement by Descartes, "I think therefore I am"). The evidence most strongly supports the notion that Joseph Smith would've had to have written the Book of Mormon himself if it was a fabricated, fictional text. It simultaneously offers strong support for the notion that there is absolutely no way Joseph Smith could've been smart enough to pull of something like that. While we technically can't empirically "prove" what really happened, it is absolutely reasonable to believe according to the textual product of the Book of Mormon and the eyewitness testimonies of the nature of its translation that it is an ancient text that was translated by God through divine inspiration. It's hypocritical for you to argue that the Resurrection is reasonable to believe in on the basis of eyewitness testimony while simultaneously rejecting the eyewitness testimony supporting the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

[@HowdyHowdens]

More LDS who leaving Mormonism need things like this! Thank you so much for hosting this debate!

[@GldnClaw]

Actually, it's been the anti content that are drawing people to the Church (not to mention, 40% of those who leave are coming back). The Come Back Podcast has that statistic and Ward Radio did a recent showcase of anti material drawing people to the church.

[@HowdyHowdens]

LDS people rank number 1 in people considering to leave their religion. And more than 1/3 of Mormons end up leaving the Church. What happens to those who “come back” are more often people in high density Mormon areas. Most Mormons who leave the church end up becoming atheist, and that’s why I think these debates are great, because we need more Ex-Mormons to become Catholic. I want my fellow ex-Mormons to not stop believing in God, but to believe in God!

[@GldnClaw]

@@HowdyHowdens Ah, you are a fan of Spiritual Poaching. Just as Christ himself proclaimed to do.

[@HowdyHowdens]

@@GldnClaw i dont know what you’re getting at honestly. I would much rather an exmormon choose to believe in God then become atheist and reject him all together.

[@lemjwp1756]

Not true. People come back all over, as I did. Also, leaving is nothing new. People been leaving since 1830. Peoole left Jesus...there's a verse in the NT which says they all departed him. Also remember the parable of the sower...not all seed grows or takes root.

[@philandrews2860]

Thanks for sharing.. I enjoyed listening to this debate. It's difficult to cover all the questions that Trent came up with in a single debate without taking a huge amount of time, so it would have been better if the focus could have been kept on the Book of Mormon specifically. In spite of that, I think both Jacob and Trent did a good job debating in their respective areas of knowledge. I think Jacob's kind of rushed manner earlier on (not always letting Trent complete his sentence) was due to his trying to cover as much ground as he could in the limited time he had to answer the 'gish-gallop' of criticisms that Trent came up with, and a fair number of those criticisms were outdated inaccurate ones that have long since been debunked. Like Jacob, I also have answers to all of the various questions and criticisms that Trent raised, along with many more that Trent didn't have time to raise. I mostly agree with Jacob on the ones he was able to find time to answer. Though I am a Latter-day Saint, I also really like the Catholic Church and think they continue to do a lot of good and have done a lot of good in the past. Yes there were bad things done by some Catholic leaders in the past but I don't focus on those, realizing that there has been a lot of good but that unfortunately the bad stuff gets brought up more. That is true with my faith as well: the critics tend to myopically focus on bad stuff and either ignore or else downplay the good stuff. I also try to see the good in all religions, and to focus on that. It doesn't mean that I ignore the bad, but just that I like to focus primarily on the good. I think that bad things are simply a result of certain individuals being subject to human weaknesses, some more than others, but that all good inspiration comes ultimately from God. I happen to believe that my religious faith has more good and more truth than other religions, or else I would not be a member of my faith 🙂 One other comment: Trent mentioned a few times that the 'burden of proof' was on Jacob and other Latter-day Saints to 'prove' the Book of Mormon is a true record. That's the exact same argument that atheists use with the Bible and with a belief in God. They claim that the 'burden of proof' is on Christians to prove those things to them. My answer is that only the individual can prove those concepts on their own, by a combination of intense personal study, intense soul-searching, and from their own experience with the divine through their own personal 'revelation'. In other words, using both the mind and the heart, both the physical and the spiritual. Last comment: Regarding the question Trent brought up with text of the Book of Mormon not being able to fit on the golden plates: Jerry Grover, a Latter-day Saint, has done an in-depth study on this topic, using the 'Caractors' document as a basis, and found that the script was primarily logographic, meaning one symbol per word. He actually came up with a tentative translation of it, using primarily known Egyptian hieratic and demotic scripts, along with some Mesoamerican as well as Sumerian characters. His book can be read online for free. He has also written other books regarding Book of Mormon evidence that are quite interesting. Another LDS scholar (I don't remember which one, off hand - it might have been Jerry Grover) has also written a book and/or article describing in detail how a logographic script could have easily allowed the entire Book of Mormon, including the lost manuscript, to fit onto the gold plates (which incidentally were likely a mixture of copper and gold, with more copper than gold). Also I agree with Jacob's assessment that Joseph Smith's translation was most likely an 'expansion' of the relatively 'bare bones' text that was actually on the plates. By the way, Egyptian hieratic and demotic scripts can actually be accurately called 'reformed Egyptian', as they were derived from the earlier hieroglyphs as a sort of simplified and faster way of writing them on papyrus or wood. And by the way, Joseph Smith didn't die in a 'shootout', it was a cold blooded murder of Joseph and his brother Hyrum and attempted murder of John Taylor and Willard Richards, who were also in the jail cell with them. The 4 men were in the jail cell when a mob of 200 men stormed the jail and began firing wildly into the room from both the door and through the window from the outside. Yes, Joseph had a small 'pepperbox pistol' and he fired a few shots at the mob through the door after the mob had fatally shot his beloved brother Hyrum. That was in self defense and none of the mob died from those shots (2-3 men were wounded, none seriously). The mob came there with the intention of murdering Joseph Smith and all who were in the jail cell with them, and they afterwards bragged about the deed in Warsaw, IL, where most of the men were from.

[@janiworthen]

@philandrews2860 Thank you ❤️😊