Is the Christian God a Genocidal Bully? Interview with Charlie Trimm (OT Scholar)

How can God command genocide in the OT? Doesn't that make him a bully, and not worthy of worship? In this video, i interview one of the leading OT scholars about this vital question. We explore different options available to Bible-believing Christians in approaching this difficult challenge.
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[@chindi17]

On thing that discouraged me sometimes as a Christian is I seldom saw intellectual honesty. Seeing this from Sean McDowell has been very helpful in my faith.

[@Jesusandmentalhealth]

Thank you Charlie and Sean for such a great interview! Sean, you are always so gracious. Enjoying your show and the exciting info!

[@ruthhill2010]

Thank you Charlie for ending with that John 6 scripture, that was beautiful. Your love and respect for Jesus is tangible 😊

[@mathildemichaud4185]

As an athiest this was interesting. Option 1 was barely discussed and makes me want to come back to my philosophical course on ethics. Arguments for being a good person as an athiest is someting I would definitly like to know more about. This video gave me more respect for option 4 even if I am not personnaly convinced. I definitly understand the « the world is too complex for me to understand it completly and I might be missing someting » part of it

[@yesenia3816]

I commend you for humble honesty. As a Christian, I find it refreshing.

[@Becca_Lynn]

Thanks for tackling the tough subjects. I pray God teaches us in his wisdom and truth on this.

[@JWCFB]

This was much needed, thank you.

[@seekingagnostic3962]

Wow! Very interesteing and thorough discussion!

[@janwaska521]

Much learning from the referenced book. Will look for it.

[@janwaska521]

Excellent discussion on such an important topic. Thanks!

[@rhondarockhound622]

What about the idea that scripture is the record of people’s encounter with God, and that it reflects the human writer’s perception and world view. God is slowly revealing himself, inspiring the authors, giving them as much truth as they can take. Their world view affects what they hear Yahweh say. Does this view necessarily mean the scripture is not inerrant? To me the scripture perfectly points to Christ and God’s plan to redeem mankind.

[@mistylover7398]

Fantasy beliefs

[@heynow1388]

This is frustrating. Do Christians EVER consider why such conversations are even necessary? As a non Christian I'd just offer the observation that it is very strange that an omniscient, omnipotent, all loving God could make such a bad job at transmitting his message down through the decades. Why would he even run the risk of having him being portayed as a moral monster? Basically, apologetics on this or any other of the hundreds of the problematic / immoral things in the Bible shouldn't be necessary. Isn't it more likely that the Bible was written by late bronze age people rather than a God?

[@heynow1388]

@@Alias79555 Many thanks for such a long and thoughtful response. I agree with most of what you say as I am familiar with the origins of YHWH, which is more than I can say for most Christians who (unlike you) are almost totally ignorant of the plain fact that their God had his origin in another religion and culture. Thanks once again for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate it

[@carolinerich7213]

Really great conversation. I still have so many questions. This was too short. Lol. But I get the time limits.

[@passthebaton7916]

Definitely a question that comes up. Thanks for the content.

[@sandrataylor9122]

Thank you Dr. Trimm for sharing your research concerning questions regarding God's wrath. Also, Sean, I appreciate your insightfulness into hard questions. I had a hard time with that issue of God's seeming Bullishness as well. I think the thing that dissuaded me from thinking in terms of God Wrath as being like a Bully is when I started studying about God's holiness. I found I cannot even comprehend what HOLY is other than it is something that only God can be even though HE calls us to be Holy because HE is. The more I learn and think about God's Holiness, salvation in Christ is the only way into God's presence because, GOD will not allow sin to enter into heaven. God's wrath is righteousness in light of our sinfulness. escape God's righteous acts.

[@mistylover7398]

Retarded comment dude. Like how can gawd possibly exist in reality with all contradictions??? Just haz to be fantasy and myth just haz to be. You can't explain or demonstrate gawd with evidence. It's just yo gamble beLIEf

[@chindi17]

Thank you for your intellectual honesty Sean McDowell and Charlie Trimm. I think it's important to understand how difficult some ethical and moral issues are. Especially for me that was previously an atheist and is still consider myself a Human Rights Activist though my Christian faith is first. I wrestle with those passages. But it's okay to wrestle. You can be a born again and have issues that we wrestle with.

[@coffeejabberwocky]

Chindi, do you believe the Bible to be a literal account? Or a guide? To what extent? I won't be elusive, I'm an agnostic, and I'm genuinely asking...

[@chindi17]

@@coffeejabberwocky thank you for your question. I believe it as more of a guide than literal

[@coffeejabberwocky]

@@chindi17 thank you for being candid. The second prose was, 'to what extent'? Untrue, but a good philosophy? Part true, as in the characters are real but the stories are embellished? You get my drift...

[@chindi17]

@@coffeejabberwocky the way I look at it for me is the things to do with loving others and loving God. I personally do believe Jesus did love us anf yes he died for out sins. Now when it comes theology that is when I question things or disagree with things. Theologies such as if one does not believe in Christ they will go to hell, we are all bad and only become good through the belief of Christ, original sin etc. I don't believe such theology. Also the Bible is not perfect. It was written by humans who were inspired by God. That means they made mistakes or sometimes communicated their own agenda using God. It is possible to communicate what someone did not intend. I can say you said something you never said. Take Ephesians 6 vs. 5 or 1 Peter 2 vs. 18. Those words don't sound like coming from God. Another is Leviticus 20 vs. 13. You can read them. Those verses sound like a human being who is using God as authority for his own views. Even Paul's letter to Philemon where a runaway slave Onesimus is told to go back is just bizzarre. I also treat all 66 books in the bible as separate as each has a different agenda. So when it comes to morality in the bible I tend to look as guidance sometimes only for people at the time. Anyway sorry for my long answer.

[@coffeejabberwocky]

@@chindi17 I think if I believed in your faith, I'd have a similar view😎 My only issue is that it is not just the 'human error' element you spoke to, like Leviticus for example, who seem immoral.. it's the God described that REALLY pushes the boat out... He committed infanticide on a whole nation... To get at one man... Imagine the horror and confusion for a nations mothers...if you follow your 'this bits good, that bits not' logic, I feel you'd have to remove God by that same standard..I mean if Hitler turned really nice AFTER the genocide, you wouldn't consider his morality refreshed.... your thoughts?

[@73N5H1]

Option 2 should be called "the cherrypicking option"

[@paradisecityX0]

"Crucifixion of the Warrior God" is another must-read on this topic

[@beiyongzui]

Atheist here, why do I have problem with a genocidal God? Cause I don't like genocide. As simple as that. Why do you guys BEG for an AUTHORITY to DECIDE what is right and wrong? You're not a child, you can decide.

[@mistylover7398]

Exactly.

[@dillonnesteruk]

Where did right and wrong come from? How do you know that genocide is inherently wrong?

[@beiyongzui]

​@@dillonnesteruk Right and wrong always come from a person calling it right and wrong. That's where. From a person point of view some things are preferrable some things are not. You can also ask God if He is real, "God where did right and wrong come from?". What do you think He would say? It's doesn't matter who calls it. You can call genocide right. I can call genocide wrong. It doesn't matter really, it's just like stating a preference. It doesn't even seem to matter for God as He once said, "thou shall not kill" and ordered to kill people later. For me, what matters is, within a universe where people are DIFFERENT from each other, HOW do we work with our differences without destroying each other.

[@VickyRBenson]

This is such an interesting discussion. I had come to the conclusion that any interpretation of warfare in the OT had to be based on (1) the character of God and (2) the truth of the Word of God. God is Love (which includes Justice, Righteousness, Redemption, and Spiritual Warfare between the arch-Enemy of God and His Redeemed people). There is no way that fallen man (whose heart is deceitful) could possibly be MORE ethical and morally right than God Himself. It is commendable to have a high standard of morality and a sense of justice. That’s part of the knowledge of both good and evil that humans chose to partake of apart from God. Mankind first fell by eating of the tree 🌳 of the knowledge of good and evil at the suggestion of the Deceiver, who appealed to Eve with things that seemed GOOD to her. The problem was believing Satan’s deception: his casting doubt on God’s character and his denying the truth of God’s Word. Isn’t that the same deception still going on here, based on GOOD. Satan succeeded in drawing God’s creation into his realm of death and destruction by turning mankind away from their fellowship with and loyalty to God and His Word, a realm of life, righteousness, fruitfulness. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. The New Testament focuses on spiritual warfare, using spiritual (not carnal) weapons, against the spiritual forces and powers (not flesh and blood). Do we allow evil to continue without fighting against it? The OT is written for our instruction and example. We see God’s long-suffering and patience, and mercies (new every morning). He actually allowed His people to be enslaved by Egypt for 400 years until the iniquity of those in the promised land was complete. Jesus wept over Jerusalem as He entered the city for the last time, knowing that the city would be destroyed within 40 years because they did not recognize that God had visited them. Jesus has put off His return because of His unwillingness that any should perish. When the martyrs under the altar (5th seal of Revelation) cried out wondering when they would be avenged. They are told to wait until the number of those who would be killed should be fulfilled. When you consider the millions upon millions killed through the centuries by Satan’s minions (through greed, war, hating life and freedom) and wonder why God doesn’t do anything about it, know that in the end God will bring an end to it, after giving every opportunity to men and women to repent. We see His mercies in the OT (Rahab, the Gibeonites, Ruth). Love defends its loved ones from evil. God will, too, but He loved the world so much, He has done everything to redeem mankind and the earth from the clutches of Satan. Jesus forgave those who crucified Him while He was being crucified. “God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their iniquities to them,” and has given us this message as we plead with people, on behalf of Christ, to be reconciled to God. Abraham knew that God, the Judge of all the world, would do what was right. In the end we can trust God to do what is right and just.

[@janwaska521]

Yes the ethical problem remains even after the attempted workarounds. That was well explained. Looking for his book.

[@annbrucepineda8093]

Just last night we read Joshua 5 in Bible study. We weren't sure but decided the "man" who said he was not on either side was actually Christ, not just an angel with a message from God.

[@annbrucepineda8093]

Our teacher is amazing, quite knowledgeable but not legalistic

[@drakesmith2492]

Good stuff.

[@miltonwetherbee5489]

I wonder, as I understand it, the cultures of the Old Testament, they had some god or group of gods they worshiped overall as a nation. Could it be that to some extent, a national judgement was a way of demonstrating the falseness of that nations god(s)? I mean, the 10 plagues of Egypt were each a direct assault on the individual gods of Egypt. Such judgement today wouldn't work well as so many nations don't have a singular religion, even though many still do, a judgement against a nation based in part on the god(s) it worships wouldn't send the same message to other nations that it would have at the time. It seems to me that this would play some role in the events in the Old Testament discussed in this video.

[@HiVisl]

I love these interviews. Walking through the problem, discerning the underlying questions/objections is so helpful! I really appreciate the time and the quality of the people interviewed. Thank you so much. Maybe there's another option? Yes, killing people arbitrarily is wrong (for humans), but God has the right to destroy (judge) as he sees fit. He's responding from righteousness. Why can't God deal with the Canaanites that way? If you think Joshua was a problem, wait til you see how God judges the entire rebellious world in Revelation. Violence, when done by God, cannot be immoral.

[@SeanMcDowell]

So glad they’re helpful!

[@robindecker3946]

You forgot option 5: " People cheat, but it doesn't diminish the Infinite "

[@grasshopperrules34]

This was pretty good

[@StreliziaDeWitt]

I take option 4, the other options sounds like a denial of texts that are not vague at all. My theory on why everyone needed to be killed other then judgement is also that the Israelite's don't mingle with the Canaanites so that they may remain pure. They clearly disobeyed which made the Israelite's corrupted and ended up with their exile. Just look at King Solomon and all the wives he married, ended up making altars to all these gods.

[@magdalenamalarveelivaloo1694]

I am not sure, i don’t know. Seems like what Christians in Europe say about lots of traditional doctrines. It is confusing.

[@kjvertruth1026]

What about the view that the Canaanites were genetically impure? From genesis 6 that they were Nephilm?

[@jw2442]

That was the view of the Biblical writers up until the 4th century when Augustine (?) came up with the "line of Seth" theory. The kharam command was given for the hill countries, where all of the "ims" tribes lived. Put your thinking hats on folks, if the kharam order was for the entire Canaan, how come there was still a command not to intermarry? Intermarry with what? Zombies?

[@kristenjones4445]

Life on Earth has a 100% death rate. Unlike today, back in OT times, they did not have antibiotics, pain management, hospitals, surgery with general anesthetic, etc. Life was brutal, and death was brutal regardless of whether death came by sword, famine, pestilence, or old age. We live in a very rare bubble in which we rarely see (let alone experience) true suffering. Suffering is stuffed away in hospitals instead of in plain sight. I believe this naive bubble through which we see the Old Testament alters our perception, turning it into a bigger problem than it has to be. To me, the bigger question is... were the Canaanites offered eternal salvation when Christ died on the Cross? (After all, Christ died for us while we were still sinners.)

[@pinyajuicezerofive5957]

When we sin individually, we will reap the consequence individually, but as a nation, God judges: the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah. The sin of the Amorites has reached it's full measure, and ready for God' judgement, Gen 15:16,13 more than half a century of patience. I think GOD used Israel to prepare them for they will be hated by many nations until now. We don't know what the sins of Canaanites were, but we are sure they won't be repentant, otherwise God would have stubbornly sent them a "Jonah" like Nineveh, Jonah 4:11

[@Cuko-vj2ms]

Option 4 should not be "mystery" so much as "paradigm / perspective" - It is unfair to suggest that this is the conclusion for the non-thinker. Consider Job! God's great revelation to Job was not that he should not think on such matters, but rather, he must consider that he is a man and God is God. Typically when we speak of the flood or, perhaps, an eventual destruction of the planet, we honor God as being just and wholly righteous. We are, after all, his creation and so we are all in his dept even if he were to end us now. We are not so lenient with God (CS Lewis reference), however, when an individual, a community, or a people are in view. All of this to say that the 4th option is anything but lazy - this one drives us to stretch our thinking much more than the other options.

[@aleph-tavunutterable1585]

The Old Testament God is Hades / El Shaddai (the devil) and his wife, Demeter who is Death. The rational diety amidst these 2 nefarious ones is Ashera / the word / Deborah who was their captive.

[@captainhawdon937]

Is this a David Lynch film discussion?

[@rmatthi6722]

I have a couple issues with what Dr. Trimm says in this video. First, he did a poor job of paraphrasing that story from John. Many of Jesus' disciples left because they not only didn't like what He was saying, but they didn't believe Him either. Jesus knew that some of His followers didn't really believe (John 6:64-65), and their leaving proved it. When asked, Simon Peter didn't say, "We want to leave, but all our other options are no better than You." What he actually says is: “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." John 6:68-69 ESV So Peter doesn't imply that he's unsure of Jesus' teaching or that Christ was the only option. Rather, he says that through belief they've come to KNOW Christ is the Holy One of God. Jesus wasn't the lesser of two evils for them, He was the supreme choice. Second, Dr. Trimm suggests that we are free to interpret Scripture any way we choose, and that we don't need to search for a single correct interpretation. How far do you take that though? If we determine for ourselves what the Bible says instead of discovering what the authorial intention is, then absolute truth ceases to exist. "knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:20-21

[@brotherandrew3393]

The main problem for me is that God is NOT subject to moral laws. To the contrary. That simply means that we are not qualified to judge God´s actions. The next thing is that we do not know all the facts. The only qustion that for me as a follower of Jesus matters is whether I must assume that God would act the same way today and order people to kill other people. And THAT question for me is answered by Jesus: NO

[@mistylover7398]

But can you really demonstrate gawd with objective testable verifiable evidence that your gawd exists in reality besides fee fees and magic?? Wha really makes you sure you don't want to question your God and justify him to just do whatever he wants just guz you seem to ( oh well he's beyond moral laws and knowledge ) how so do you mean by ( beyond moral laws ) just guz you make dis magic gawd beyond laws to judge him??

[@captainhawdon937]

If you're turned off by the violence in the bible " what looks like genocide" and decide to not believe you are left with the problem of where do you get these values of why is genocide wrong. I get that. I think Apologists then would conclude somehow you can get these values somehow from the text that turned you off. You just have to read it in this certain way that I now propose. Sounds like a divine plan. The things we will do to protect a dearly held belief.

[@ManoverSuperman]

You are neglecting another very valid alternative: there is a God; there is objective morality; and the god of the Bible is objectively not God at all because he commands what is objectively evil, thus excluding the possibility of his being God at all.

[@coffeejabberwocky]

Well, for me captain, certainly not from God in the Bible... He committed infanticide on a whole nation cos one man defied him .. imagine the suffering, anguish and confusion of mothers over a whole nation... Honest question......How can this be morale? And finally... Would you do that?

[@captainhawdon937]

@@coffeejabberwocky Yeah. I these guys are doing some crazy mental gymnastics to try and redeem the bible. Someone should take those most embarrassing offensive quotes from the Bible and post them like everyone's grandma posts the more palatable ones.

[@coffeejabberwocky]

@@captainhawdon937 it beggars belief bmm bmm 😂 *thinks he's proper funny*

[@ron1313]

@@captainhawdon937 "Yahweh was originally was a Edomite & Midian storm & warrior God. He was seen as a minor God or king of gods. Often described as a Dragon/ Serpent (Breathes fire, has wings, long Nostrils) There is a theory that the Midian's introduced Yahweh to Israel Around 1200 BC through migration. Between 1200 BC and 1000 Yahweh was adopted in the Canaanite pantheon as one of the children of EL , the king of the gods & original god of Israel. Eventually Yaweh became a epithet of El. Around 1100 BCE, El & Yahweh morphed together as the king of the Israelite patheon with Asherah as his wife & with other gods under his command as a divine council including El Satan. Around 5th century B.C with the rise of Monotheism Yaweh became "the one true god"

[@ruekjaeg4863]

And why He told the Isrealites to do it? Unlike the flood..

[@jw2442]

Wait, didn't Jesus fashioned a whip, turned tables over, yelling and whipping people who defiled the temple? So yeah, God can be violent for the right reasons. And let us remember, as The Heaven is higher than the earth, so is God's thoughts higher than ours. Only because we are uncomfortable with God's decisions, it doesn't make them wrong. Such pride and arrogance; no wonder humans are so messed up. We should be grateful that God went out of His way and took it upon Himself to reconcile us to Him, instead of second guessing and criticizing His decisions. PS - I am one of those messed up humans who second guess and criticize God, so I include myself in that group, not pointing finger.

[@mistylover7398]

Wha right reasons just guz he's gawd. He can just do whatever JUST GUZ?? How you ever justify or demonstrate your gawd real?? Just a gamble belief. Not evidence just a belief. Wha gives a random popular god any rights and good reasons to just drunk driving without consequences just guz you believers demand he needs to be ( beyond moral laws ) and all evil he ever will do iz good guz it's just demanded??

[@krasimirgedzhov8942]

I think signalling out this portion of the Bible is cherry-picking by atheists. Somehow they never have the broader theological picture, but someone, somewhere has given them this cherry-picked narrative and we have to defend it. I think the way you "defend" this is not defending it, but giving the whole picture of God. A god who shows such love cannot possibly a monster in any way, therefore whatever is the motivation behind such judgements must be justice, even if we can't find any hints as to why that is in the rest of scripture. That, to me at least, ends the discussion. And narrowing down this particular case isn't intellectually honest. We know that they've had centuries to change, but became worse, we see that the people knew the judgement on them is coming, because God brought His people upon them. Some of them helped and were spared, so they surely had an option for mercy! Look at the same case later - in Nineveh. God told them He would destroy them in a month - no ancient way of speaking, literally all of them would've been a pile of ash, like Sodom, and they repented and were espared. The real issue is why the question is asked by each individual. Everyone has a different issue with it, and hat's what really matters in apologetics - delivering the the gospel, and giving a valid defense of our faith, with the point of sharing the Good news of Jesus.

[@kathleencassel1350]

I don’t think we always see “the now” and the “not yet” of the Word of God. There are the very real events, the dead Canaanites as you say, but there are also the pictures these events paint of what God and people are like. He is continuing to reveal Himself to us. And He is Truth and also Grace all at once. I liked the reminder to seek Him, to study and dig deeply, but to remember in the end that we can never know it all. There is mystery in walking with God.

[@ThorsonFinancialEstateMgmtInc]

Have you geniuses heard of Occam’s razor? The concept concludes that the simplest answer is usually the right answer. That simple answer is that it’s all man made.

[@UpholdTheFaith]

After years or research I wholeheartedly disagree. I think there are some huge conflicts to the idea this is man made. Either way, that principle has an inherent, built in wiggle room for exceptions. Anytime we try to bridge the gap of most to all, we're being disenguous. I think that principle also better applies when you've got mostly the same pretext with different outcomes. Often, the way presented in conflict with Christianity seems to be from two different viewpoints.

[@mattparsons6487]

Right. So let’s be consistent and say quantum physics is made up because the explanations are wayyy too complex and confusing

[@sondertekken]

@@mattparsons6487 That's not how Occam's Razor works.

[@mattparsons6487]

jesterguy Funny that, I really believed I’d disproved quantum physics.... or just shown the original comment misunderstands the concept like you said

[@73N5H1]

"removes protection and allows evil beings to do violent acts" yet this line of thought falls apart when you realize that the Bible claims that everything is god's creation and according to his plan, which would include said evil beings. The fact that evil acts occur at all, not only the genocide in the bible, speaks to the morality of god when you take this into consideration. And before you start the "free will" argument, that is contradictory. You can't claim that someone has free will when you are all knowing and already know the course of action they will take, were the designer of them and they are living out a plan that you created and enforce. All of that runs country to the concept of free will. If evil exists, it is because god designed and planned said evil.

[@grantbartley483]

Apologetics is an arms race. You have the warheads. How can you best deliver them to unbelievers?

[@frankwhelan1715]

As Pinecreek says (in his review of this vid) if you reinterpret these passages why can't you do the same with others that you like and don't question, dying and rising god,etc,etc.

[@73N5H1]

Atheistic approach 🤣 rejection of god implies that someone doesn't want to "follow" a god like that , when atheists don't believe in the existence of a god to begin with. If anything, atheists are pointing this out to you to show you the blatant contradiction within your own text. At what point do you stop trying to find loopholes to explain away the multitude of contradictions in the bible and say "you know what, maybe the bible is so contradictory because it isn't factual". And we get human value from empathy, which is a trait we have because we are a social species.

[@captainhawdon937]

I'm pretty sure these guys have thought more deeply about the scriptures than the people who wrote it.

[@alanazargushasb8557]

A little leaven leavens the whole lot. It's time to believe the real gospel. Jesus saves everyone in the end. Death is real. Those that die cease to exist there is no afterlife ([Ecclesiastes 9:4-10, Psalm 6:5, Psalm 30:9, Psalm 88:10-12, Psalm 146:2-4, Psalm 115:17, Acts 2:34, Isaiah 38:18-19, Genesis 42:13,36, Lamentations 5:7, Psalm 39:13, Matthew 2:18) However, 2000 years ago a man named Jesus was born, he was the son of God. God, who always existed, begat Jesus, Jesus did not always exist. First there was the Father, God, then came his son. Jesus really is Gods son. Jesus is literally Gods son. God begat Jesus as men beget their children. Jesus proceeds out of the seed of his Father just as you proceed out of the seed of your Father. Jesus lived a perfect life, and died on the cross as a substitute for you and all the bad deeds you have committed in your life, and for all the bad deeds everyone else committed in their lives, past present and future. These bad deeds are called sins, we are all sinners, and the wages of sin is to suffer and eventually die. Jesus died. His body died. His soul died. His spirit died. Every part of Jesus died as a substitute for your sins. www.askelm.com/essentials/ess018a.htm 3 days Later after being totally dead (his consciousness ceased and was in a lifeless corpse) God raised him back to life and Jesus ascended into heaven. Thanks to this he defeated death and sin once and for all for everyone. Since he was sinless he could die in your place. Thanks to this, everyone will one day attain immortality(this is salvation from death) and be justified (declared not guilty, he who is justified can not sin, this is salvation from sin) and enter into the Kingdom of God, hell exists for some but it is not forever(the punishment is remedial). In the end Jesus saves all. Romans 5:17-19 King James Version 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. No one chooses to be condemned in Adam, you are born this way. Thanks to Adam we are all sinners [ you believe this ], thanks to Jesus we all will be made justified and righteous [you do not believe this]. The same all that were condemned in Adam [ you believe this] , are the same all that are justified in Christ and receive life (immortality) [you do not believe this]. He who is justified can not sin because he has been declared not guilty, sin is not reckoned unto his account. In context the 2 groups are the same group. You did not choose to be born a sinner, it happened to you, you did not choose to be saved by Jesus, and be declared justified, and receive immorality. It happened to you simply be being born. Faith is a gift, God gives some faith now, others he gives faith later, God wants to save all, just not now. Salvation is totally out of your hands just as being born a sinner is totally out of your hands. You do not choose to believe in Jesus, God chooses you to believe and gives you the faith to believe in Jesus. There is no free will. Free will is the difference between having faith in faith (your faith in faith saved you) vs having faith that Jesus saved you. Free will is a doctrine of demons. kzbin.info/www/bejne/inXWpqWtf7JrhsU God is at peace with the world right now, God is at peace with you. Jesus saved you and the world 2000 years ago. The world does not know this yet. God is at peace with the world but the world thinks it is not at peace with God, this is conciliation, one way peace, with God being at peace. In time the world will learn the truth about God and be at peace with him, 2 way peace reconciliation. The lake of fire judgement is not based on sin, for sin has already been dealt with on the cross, but instead on works. Those that are cast into the lake of fire die, however the lake of fire also kills death in the end. When death dies all those that died in the lake of fire are raised back to life, and then they are subjected unto Jesus, then Jesus subjects himself to God the Father, then God is all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 King James Version 22 For as in Adam all die [that's everyone, you believe this], even so in Christ shall all be made alive [that's the same everyone, you do not believe this]. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. The same all that died in Adam, are the same all that are made alive in Christ (v22)! Lets talk about that word subdued/ subject in verse28, its the same word in the greek. upotassw Strongs Number: G5293 Orig: from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:--be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto. G5259 It means: 1) to arrange under, to subordinate 2) to subject, put in subjection 3) to subject one's self, obey 4) to submit to one's control 5) to yield to one's admonition or advice 6) to obey, be subject Everything that is put in subjection unto Jesus, OBEYS JESUS. Jesus is their Lord, their Master. They are his slaves. Everyone will eventually be Jesus's slave. If you are a slave of Jesus, you are a christian (see Romans 1:1, Paul is a slave of Jesus, and James 1:1, James a slave of the God and the lord Jesus Christ) 1 Timothy 4:9-11 King James Version 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach. 1 Jesus cant be your savior if he does not save you 2 Jesus is the savior of ALL MEN 3 Especially of those that believe 4 Especial does not mean exclusively Jesus is the savior of all men because he will save all men, he is especially the savior of believers because believers receive their salvation earlier The doctrine of Eternal Torment rests on the translation of 4 words. olam aion aionion and aionios usage defines the word, if you were to look at how these words are used throughout the bible you would see that these words do not mean forever, eternal, everlasting word studies the prove that hell is not forever but a mistranslation of the words olam, aion and aionios proof that hell is not forever www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/ www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041101.htm www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041201.htm www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm the basic doctrines of Christ, the plan of God, Jesus saves all in the end www.askelm.com/abc/ www.askelm.com/essentials/index.asp godskingdom.org/studies/books/creations-jubilee godsplanforall.com/ What happens to us when we die www.askelm.com/essentials/ess022a.htm godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-iii/chapter-23-do-we-have-an-immortal-soul/ godskingdom.org/studies/tracts/how-death-affects-your-body-soul-and-spirit bible-truths.com/death.htm bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html bible-truths.com/lake16-B.html kzbin.info/www/bejne/rofSi5KLirqUptk the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, here is an explanation of the parable bible-truths.com/lazarus.html godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-ii/chapter-19-the-rich-man-and-lazarus/ godskingdom.org/studies/tracts/gods-marvelous-plan-for-creation-part-3-the-rich-man-and-lazarus www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm Why certain doctrines contradict the gospel thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2015/05/pauls-gospel-and-death-denying.html martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF4.29.pdf predestination, free will, and the problem of evil bible-truths.com/lake2.html bible-truths.com/lake15.html www.iswasandwillbe.com/is-evil-good/ www.iswasandwillbe.com/ecc_1_12_18/ the eventual destiny of humanity, John 10:34 King James Version 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? check out the byte show interviews and audios www.askelm.com/abc/abc002.asp www.askelm.com/abc/abc003.asp www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm www.askelm.com/essentials/ess035.htm www.askelm.com/essentials/ess036.htm other general links bible-truths.com/ www.askelm.com/ saviourofall.org/ www.iswasandwillbe.com/ godskingdom.org/ godsplanforall.com/ tentmaker.org/ The guys below teach their are 2 gospels, i think this teaching is wrong, otherwise they are solid www.concordant.org/ martinzender.com/ www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/ www.studyshelf.com/videos/ thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/

[@paradisecityX0]

The Christian God is a benevolent hero. The God of the Old Testament was a badass

[@frankwhelan1715]

Same god,or is there more then one? Also ,other religions invent lots of gods, christian invention is even more far fetched, squeezing 3 gods into one, (god)

[@paradisecityX0]

@@frankwhelan1715 Same God, not a god

[@sonofkemet6955]

No they have something in common All are man made

[@paradisecityX0]

@@sonofkemet6955 Prove your extraordinary claim

[@alanazargushasb8557]

1 If you commit one sin, you deserve to go to hell and burn forever 2 Jesus died as a substitute in your place for your sins, Jesus experienced your punishment in FULL. 3 Jesus did not go to hell forever, nor did he suffer forever ....!?!---ERROR--Point 1 is contradicted by point 3 !?! ---ERROR!?!.... This isn't a minor issue The atonement is part of the gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4 15 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, Eternal torment contradicts verse 3. Eternal torment is a different gospel, which is NOT another. The gospel that Jesus died so you dont have to go to hell forever is a false gospel. Did Jesus really die for our sins, did he really take our punishment? Or did God cut him some slack for being sinless? If God was cutting him some slack then he did not die for our sins. There is no slack here. Jesus took the full punishment for our sins. 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God. Jesus did live a sinless life, however when he was on that cross he had all the sins of the world imputed onto him. Jesus died with sin on him. If the punishment Jesus endured was the punishment I deserved and the punishment I would have received for my sins, had Jesus not taken my place, and if Jesus was not tormented forever. Why then should I be tormented forever in hell? Why should anyone be tormented in hell forever, when Jesus did not suffer that? If eternal torment is the wages of sin, Jesus did not pay that. If eternal torment is the wages of sin, Jesus would still be on that cross to this day. He could never get off that cross. Eternal Torment requires an eternally torturing sacrifice. If eternal torment were the wages of sin, Jesus could never die! He would have to be on that cross being continuously tortured forever. Since he would have to be tortured forever he would never have the time to die, and if he never has the time to die, he can never rise again from the grave to defeat sin once and for all. Eternal torment contradicts the death, the atonement, and the resurrection of Jesus. Same goes for Eternal Death (Annihilationism). If Eternal Death is the wages of sin then Jesus could never rise again from the dead. He would have to stay dead forever to pay the wage of Eternal Death. If there is no resurrection from the dead you are dead in your sins Jim. Both Eternal Torment and Eternal Death contradict the cross of Christ, his atonement, and his resurrection. Those that teach such things are ENEMIES of the Cross of Christ. If you are teaching this, you need to repent. You are teaching a false gospel. The gospel that Jesus died so you don't have to go to hell forever is a false gospel. The only way Jesus can pay for our sins if the wages of sin is NOT eternal. Matthew 5:26 English Standard Version 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny. The death, berrial, and resurrection of Jesus tell you how God is going to deal with sin, they tell us what the wages of sin really is. Was Jesus tortured forever? No. Was Jesus dead forever? No What happened to Jesus? He suffered, then he died, 3 days and nights later he was back with his Dad in heaven. That's how long it took to pay for the sins of the world Jim! There were no technicalities here, God wasn't Letting Jesus get off easy because he is his son, or because he was sinless. Jesus experienced the full demands of the law, the full wrath of God in our place. No shortcuts here. The doctrine of Eternal Torment rests on the translation of 4 words. olam aion and aionios usage defines the word, if you were to look at how these words are used throughout the bible you would see that these words do not mean forever, eternal, everlasting word studies the prove that hell is not forever but a mistranslation of the words olam, aion and aionios www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041101.htm www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041201.htm www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm bible-truths.com/email2.htm#aion www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/ the gospel, the basic doctrines of Christ, Gods plan through Jesus to save all in the end www.askelm.com/abc/ www.askelm.com/essentials/index.asp godskingdom.org/studies/books/creations-jubilee godsplanforall.com/ other general links bible-truths.com/ www.askelm.com/ saviourofall.org/ www.iswasandwillbe.com/ godskingdom.org/ godsplanforall.com/ tentmaker.org/ The guys below teach their are 2 gospels, ignore this teaching, otherwise they are solid www.concordant.org/ martinzender.com/ www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/ www.studyshelf.com/videos/ thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/

[@ryanjamietaylor1134]

What is Jesus talking about when he warns people of hell?

[@alanazargushasb8557]

@@ryanjamietaylor1134 well you can view it 3 ways, 1 a literal valley southwest of Jerusalem called Gehenna (look it up in google maps) where a whole bunch of Jews died when the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem in 70 a.d. When the Romans came over 1 millions Jews died, according to Josephus they ran out of wood to crucify people. Jesus when he was alive was warning the Jews to repent and turn to him, otherwise they would be destroyed. If they did repent and turn to him the kingdom would have been instituted 2000 years ago. 2 a literal valley southwest of Jerusalem, where criminals will be executed and their dead bodies are left to rot outside during the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth at his second coming (this is 1000 years before the great white throne judgment) 3 a code by Jesus about the lake of fire judgment there is a lot of evidence for the 2 points, (lot of Christians never research this out but Gehenna is mentioned by Jeremiah and Isaiah in the old testament as a place people will be executed and their bodies will be left to rot outside)but there is one verse I am not exactly sure about so I leave in point 3 Jesus did speak about the day of judgment, and even spoke of condemnation on the day of judgment, however as to whether Gehenna =lake of fire , it could be , but keep in mind this , the lake of fire is the second death, people are being cast into Gehenna (during the 1000 year reign of Jesus ) have not been resurrected and are thus dying the first death, not the second death Matthew 5:22-26 & Matthew 18:31-35 , Luke 12:5,49-50, 12:57-59, The judge is Jesus. The prison is hell (Gehenna). Once he pays what is owed, they pay the last mite, he gets out. Jesus is not talking about a local Roman/Jewish court. No Roman/Jewish court would put you in jail for insulting your brother. Matthew 5:24-26 King James Version 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. > shall be in danger of hell fire > Therefore >thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. This isnt just a local Jewish/Roman court. The immediate context before and after is the fires of Gehenna. This is Jesus' first hellfire and brimstone sermon in the bible. The very first sermon of Jesus, when talking about Gehenna, mentions that you will not get out until you pay the last penny. Take the text and read it as it is. Often when I show people this verse the blinders come on and they say “well hell is forever, therefore they will never get out”. Then what is the point of saying “thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing”, why not say “thou shalt never come out”, the word TILL (which would be until in modern English, limits how long he is in the jail. He will not come out UNTIL he has paid the last penny Matthew 18:8-9, 31-35 King James Version 8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. >and delivered him to the tormentors >till he should pay all that was due unto him. What happens when he pays all that was due unto him? What is Jesus saying here. God will punish him till he should pay all that is due. Again that word till (until in modern English) is there. The person is delivered to the tormentors UNTILL he should pay all that was due. People whitewash the teaching of Jesus here; they whitewash it with the doctrine of 1 sin = torture forever. They abrogate (cancel out) the word of God, the very words of Jesus! God’s law does not teach 1 sin = torture forever (Moses never taught that). Not even man’s law teaches that. But the church teaches that. What is God’s standard of justice? An eye for an eye, not an eye for never-ending torture. Luke 12:5,49-50,57-59 King James Version 5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell[Gehenna]; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!... 57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? 58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. 59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite. > I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite. What does the church do with the words, “thou shall not depart then, till”? They abrogate it, they white wash it to mean “thou shall never depart”. If that is what Jesus wanted to say then why did not he not just say that. The church is so smart, with their big brains, they can see what Jesus is really saying! What wisdom! Nevertheless, the stupidity of God is wiser than the wisdom of man! 3 times I have shown Jesus saying Gehenna is not forever. This is didactic teaching from Jesus himself.

[@alanazargushasb8557]

@@ryanjamietaylor1134 here is another qoute from Jesus about Gehenna Mark 9:45-50 King James Version 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell(Gehenna) fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have Let us go look at the verse Jesus was quoting from the old testament. Isaiah 66:22-24 King James Version 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. >and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. Notice they are dead. Carcases are dead bodies. New International Version "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies .... New Living Translation And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies .... English Standard Version “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies .... They are all dead bodies. These people who experienced the fire of Gehenna died. And keep in mind the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Cor 1:26). Now a lot of people have been hung up and tried to wiggle their way out when I presented these verses by saying, well the fire is not quenched! Ergo they are being tortured forever! The fire not being quenched is just a euphemism. The word Quenched in hebrew is the word tikbeh biblehub.com/hebrew/tichbeh_3518.htm Leviticus 6:12-13 King James Version 12 And the fire upon the altar shall be burning in it; it shall not be put out [tikbeh]: and the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and lay the burnt offering in order upon it; and he shall burn thereon the fat of the peace offerings. 13 The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall [tikbeh] never go out. Needless to say the fire on the altar did go out, it eventually died, it did not die until it quenched all that was to be quenched. Once its fuel source ran it the fire went out. Keep in mind the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Cor 15:26). And according to Jesus- “Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.”

[@alanazargushasb8557]

@@ryanjamietaylor1134 Ryan, in my next post are some links that prove that the lake of fire is not forever. Check them out. After that check out the 2 gospel links. Eternal Torment is a lie. It is not in all the bibles. The words olam aion and aionios are mistranslated because of tradition, money, and politics. Eternal torment is good for making denominations, good for tithes and offerings, and good for gaining political power, however it denies the atonement Jesus provided on the cross. Jesus didnt just try to save the world, he actually saved the world. Narrow is the gate that leads to age abiding life, broud is the gate that leads to age abiding punishment . However after the age abiding punishment, those that were punished will enter into the kingom and God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:22-28). Jesus when he was alive was offering age abiding life (early entrance into the kingdom) vs age abiding punishment. Jesus the saviour of the world actually saves THE WORLD! Revelation 20:10 CLV(i) 10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." Revelation 20:10 YLT(i) 10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. Revelation 20:10 Rotherham(i) 10 and, the Adversary that had been deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented, day and night, unto the ages of ages. (Mathew 24-25 is all one context, this judgment takes place 1000 years before the great white throne judgment at the second coming of Jesus, the fire is prepared for them because they Join Satan when he attacks the saints at the end of the millennial kingdom, age abiding life is early entrance into the kingdom) Matthew 25:46 Rotherham 46 And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life. Matthew 25:46 CLV 46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." Matthew 25:46 Diaglott 46 And shall go away these into a cutting-off age-lasting; the and just ones into life age-lasting

[@alanazargushasb8557]

@@ryanjamietaylor1134 JESUS SAVES EVERYONE IN THE END. THE LAKE OF FIRE IS NOT FOREVER. DEATH IS REAL. Those that die have no consciousness whatsoever, there is no afterlife (Ecc 9:4-10, Psalm 6:5, Psalm 30:9, Psalm 88:10-12, Psalm 146:2-4, Psalm 115:17, Acts 2:34, Isaiah 38:18-19, Genesis 42:13,36,Lamentations 5:7, Psalm 39:13, Matthew 2:18 see below for biblegateway link) However, 2000 years ago a man named Jesus was born, he was the son of God. God, who always existed, begat Jesus, Jesus did not always exist. First there was the Father, God, then came his son. Jesus really is Gods son. Jesus has been given office and title and powers of God (God the Father always had these, Jesus did not, that is why God the Father gives these things to Jesus) but he is not the same being as his Father. One is immortal and could never die, the other is mortal and can die. Jesus before he was borne made everyone. Jesus lived a perfect life, and died on the cross as a substitute for you and all the bad deeds you have committed in your life, these bad deeds are called sins, we are all sinners, and the wages of sin is to suffer and eventually die. 3 days and nights later after being totally dead (he ceased to exist and was in a lifeless corpse) in a tomb, God raised him back to life and Jesus ascended into heaven. Thanks to this he defeated death and sin once and for all for everyone. Since he was sinless he could die in your place. Thanks to this, everyone will one day attain immortality and enter into the Kingdom of God, the lake of fire exists for some but it is not forever. In the end Jesus saves all. The cross grantees the salvation of everyone who ever lived. We have no free will. God gives faith to anyone he chooses. In the end he will give faith to all. proof that hell is not forever, the reason it says so in most bibles is a mistranslation of the words olam/aion/aionios www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/ www.hopebeyondhell.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/UPDATE-Hope-Beyond-Hell-Chapter-1-AION1.pdf www.iswasandwillbe.com/what-is-aionios-life/ makepeacewithjesus.org/7-the-septuagint-part-2 goodnewsgospel.info/Studies/EHC/The%20Ages.html www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041101.htm www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041201.htm www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-meaning-of-aion-in-new-testament.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-translational-inaccuracy-of-forever_11.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/07/they-will-not-tolerate-sound-teaching.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/07/they-will-not-tolerate-sound-teaching_2.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/12/1-timothy-410-vs-christian-doctrine-of.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/12/1-timothy-410-vs-christian-doctrine-of_17.html www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/bsn852.pdf [the pages are out of order] www.tentmaker.org/Quotes/churchfathersquotes.htm kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmiaqYt_j96DaZY kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZzJfISAm7ljeZo kzbin.info/www/bejne/gIWXpJZtZ5Z3rqc kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHzPpZqanqhmjbc What happens to us when we die (we cease to exist, dead people are not conscious whatsoever) www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecc+9%3A4-10%2C+Psalm+6%3A5%2C+Psalm+30%3A9%2C+Psalm+88%3A10-12%2C+Psalm+146%3A2-4%2C+Psalm+115%3A17%2C+Acts+2%3A34%2C+Isaiah+38%3A18-19%2C+Genesis+42%3A13%2C36%2CLamentations+5%3A7%2C+Psalm+39%3A13%2C+Matthew+2%3A18&version=KJV bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html bible-truths.com/lake16-B.html www.askelm.com/essentials/ess022a.htm godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-iii/chapter-23-do-we-have-an-immortal-soul/ godskingdom.org/studies/tracts/how-death-affects-your-body-soul-and-spirit thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2015/05/pauls-gospel-and-death-denying.html bible-truths.com/death.htm thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2014/06/life-after-death-part-1-nature-of-man.html kzbin.info/www/bejne/rofSi5KLirqUptk kzbin.info/www/bejne/fGW9dHlrqs6gpas the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, here is an explanation of the parable kzbin.info/www/bejne/b3m6m5eAndGepdE bible-truths.com/lazarus.html godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-ii/chapter-19-the-rich-man-and-lazarus/ thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-parable-of-rich-man-and-lazarus.html godskingdom.org/studies/tracts/gods-marvelous-plan-for-creation-part-3-the-rich-man-and-lazarus www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-parable-of-rich-man-and-lazarus.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-parable-of-lazarus-and-rich-man.html Why certain doctrines contradict the gospel (trinity, free will, eternal torment, going to heaven/hell immediately after you die instead of waiting for the resurrection, the immortality of the soul ) thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2015/05/pauls-gospel-and-death-denying.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/11/pauls-gospel-and-death-denying.html martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF4.29.pdf bible-truths.com/trinity.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/02/refuting-argument-for-deity-of-jesus.html [ignore his denial of the prexisence of Jesus, I disagree with him on that, otherwise he is solid] thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2020/02/refuting-argument-for-deity-of-jesus_16.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/01/one-god-and-father-of-all-how.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/01/one-god-and-father-of-all-how_1.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/01/one-god-and-father-of-all-how_8.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/01/one-god-and-father-of-all-how_82.html thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/2019/01/one-god-and-father-of-all-how_70.html predestination, free will, and the problem of evil (we have no free will, God is in control of our wills, God created evil, however evil will not last forever, once evil has served its job it will be done away with, the good it produces will last forever) kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4OVc42Gaclso7s kzbin.info/www/bejne/j6OroHejiZd0msk kzbin.info/www/bejne/rmPVe3uals2Gfa8 kzbin.info/www/bejne/baqwaJetrrV2iNk kzbin.info/www/bejne/hpLEno1urNSdf7c kzbin.info/www/bejne/hKHaYoqDYtZ6irc kzbin.info/www/bejne/pn-rZZWLhtN9hLc kzbin.info/www/bejne/jorHimOKiryZptk bible-truths.com/lake2.html bible-truths.com/lake15.html www.iswasandwillbe.com/is-evil-good/ www.iswasandwillbe.com/ecc_1_12_18/ www.iswasandwillbe.com/prophecy-of-isaiah-isa-451-7-i-make-peace-and-create-evil-i-the-lord-do-all-these-things/ godskingdom.org/studies/books/the-problem-of-evil/chapter-1-the-problem-with-free-will godsplanforall.com/free-online-book/part-iii/chapter-25-why-god-allows-evil-and-suffering/ www.martinzender.com/ZWTF/ZWTF2.6.pdf www.askelm.com/doctrine/d950101.htm askelm.com/doctrine/d031002.htm the eventual destiny of humanity, we all all become God's children and live with him forever, check out the byte show interviews and audios www.askelm.com/abc/abc002.asp www.askelm.com/abc/abc003.asp www.askelm.com/essentials/ess033.htm www.askelm.com/essentials/ess035.htm www.askelm.com/essentials/ess036.htm www.askelm.com/doctrine/d040101.htm www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.pdf other general links The guys below teach the 2 gospels truth (I can be wrong about this, but this is what I currently believe) www.theheraldofgodsgrace.org/authors_frames.htm goodnewsgospel.info/ thathappyexpectation.blogspot.com/ www.concordant.org/ www.gracetruth.co.uk/ martinzender.com/ christianheretic.com/nochurch/ www.biblestudentsnotebook.com/ www.studyshelf.com/videos/ www.reddit.com/r/ConcordantBelievers/comments/l7v56t/some_concordant_resources/ [lists youtube channels that teach this stuff] saviourofall.org/ The guys below mix the two gospel into one, but their is much truth here bible-truths.com/ www.askelm.com/ www.iswasandwillbe.com/ godskingdom.org/ godsplanforall.com/ tentmaker.org/ makepeacewithjesus.org/ Save the links to a notepad documents and bookmark them for further reading.