Unbelievable? Live! in California: Ryan Bell vs Sean McDowell

Justin presents a live audience edition of the show from Church Everyday in Northridge, California. He’s joined by atheist Ryan Bell, a former Christian pastor who took ‘A Year Without God’ after coming to doubt his faith, and Sean McDowell a Christian thinker who tells his own journey of doubt and coming to a conviction that Christianity is true.
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For more faith debates visit www.premierchri...
Unbelievable? engages in fundamental questions on Christianity with the intention to openly discuss different opinions between Christians and non-believers.
Each Saturday, in the award-winning programme Unbelievable, Justin Brierley asks questions like:
Is there evidence for God? Can we trust the Bible? Did Jesus rise from the dead?
Justin tackles these and other issues, on a show that gets Christians and non-believers talking to each other.

[@EviesAnnee]

I had a spiritual encounter with Jesus 30 years ago and put my trust in Him. But because of some life circumstances over the past few years, I began to question my faith. I was troubled by OT events and couldn't reconcile the God of the OT with the Jesus I know and the world we live in today. When I started listening to Sean's interviews almost every day a couple of years ago, in large part because of his transparency, I dove into the Bible with a different perspective which solidified what I know to be true: God is, Jesus lives, and I live because He lives in me.

[@douglashale668]

I'm an atheist and Sean is quickly becoming one of my favorite apologists to listen to. Obviously I don't arrive at the same conclusions that he does, but he exudes humility, intellectual honesty, and kindness. Something we can all learn from.

[@Diggilicious]

Yeah, that's great. But he's also the, 'I believe in god because look at all those ODDS' guy. So he's a nice apologist, but believes for the worst reasons; a colossal belief from incredulity.

[@TheUkulelegal]

Sean is awesome as an apologist. He is humble, loving and knowledgable. I LOVE HIM

[@will95515]

Diggilicious so what? That’s just like a court of law.

[@vincentparrella272]

Yes,sean is the real deal.

[@stevenrogersfineart4224]

Yeah. I agree 100%. I have been trying to find someone that wasnt full of themselves or that spoke like a heavily recited sermon. Sean is awesome.

[@heikobraun7757]

I really appreciate the friendly and respectful atmosphere of this conversation!

[@lynettethomson4784]

Wow! Fantastic Sean, you’re so good. I love the way you handle yourself, your kindness & humility and especially the last young girl the way you spoke in such gentleness and understanding, I felt her heart being touched ❤️

[@madivirden443]

“I was a bad prayer” awe sweet man. I have just came to the realization thank God that he doesn’t want a well said prayer, God wants a focused and intentional heart. If he only knew how excited the Lord is when we truly turn our imperfect selves toward him and just be what we are in that moment, we are accepted. It is so crazy that we think we need to step away from God to clear our minds when I finally found rest it was in His presence.

[@ZeRoArticyou]

“Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” ‭‭James‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[@jbeiler55]

If he's in the same boat I was- it isn't that I thought I lacked focus or good intentions. I didn't experience meaningful connection and it was difficult to keep praying with no response. I say this as a former christian who spent 4 years at Bible and missions college. And yes, I could be mistaken or deceived or had a heart issue. All I can say is that as much as I could I was seeking God and recognized my own depravity.

[@davinciandres6131]

@@jbeiler55 *Well that's very humble on your part!!! God is displeased with blind pride and arrogance.* I have been studying the Bible for over 15 years now, though I am not going to any church, like I use to do. ~But the approach that worked for me was very scientific and it's something that is never analyzed and wasn't mentioned today, *and it's the full spiritual aspect of this subject.* *There's a spiritual dimension* that science can't see, or refuse to acknowledge. ~ *The spiritual dimension contains all other dimensions.* And everything that seem to have a logical, natural or supernatural explanation is product of it. ~There's no common ground between atheism, science and believers unless they all understand the existence of a spiritual dimension. *That's how Genesis start.* It is very scientific and should be our primary focus!

[@DulceN]

Only if you really believe in all that, of course.

[@aquapointbeshoy2736]

@@DulceN well, yes. And there’s many good reasons to believe all that

[@abbeytarson7786]

I was a believer for many years. I’m going through a questioning phase.. I really enjoyed this. We need more of these.

[@chriscrutchley2169]

What are you questioning?

[@abbeytarson7786]

Chris Crutchley I have always and still believe that there is aGod and creator.. I don’t even need the bible to convince me of this. My question: if he was all knowing and all loving.. why make man with free will? why put temptation in man’s way? I’ve been listening to some apologetics who have answered the first question. I don’t have an answer to the second :).

[@frankdolansky4428]

@@abbeytarson7786 God never puts temptation in man's way. The Bible is clear about this in the book of James, "God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone." (James 1:13). The thought is concluded in the very next thought of that chapter, "But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust." Free will isn't free will unless there is a choice to be made. When temptations face us (which don't come from God, but from Satan) we can choose to walk away from it or to give in to it. That is what makes love and mercy so powerful. When we give it or receive it, it is by choice because of our free will. Thus temptation doesn't come from God. It is put before us by Satan (the first temptation being by him through the serpent in the garden of Eden). Yet, temptation serves a purpose in helping us exercise our free will either for God and His glory, or for our own selfish lusts and desires. I hope this helps answer your question and bring you some clarity. As one who faces doubts, fears, and temptations every day, I understand you. But I resist those in the name and power of Jesus Christ, and choose to follow Him by faith. He is truly the most amazing person to ever touch earth!

[@abbeytarson7786]

Frank Dolansky Thank you for a prompt and thorough response. So are you saying that Satan put himself in the garden of Eden To tempt Adam & Eve? But didn’t God make the angel who later became Satan? I still believe God as creator is the best explanation of our existence.. but I can’t help but think.. if the angel made by God was all pure.. why did he try and put himself above God? Who tempted him? How did he know about evil? From a Christian perspective, he is the cause of all man’s sufferings. I accept that no worldview has answers to all life questions.. and to be honest this probably won’t be a stumbling block if I decide to choose Christianity.. it’s just a question that lurches at the back of my mind :).

[@will95515]

Abbey Tarson we definitely don’t have all the answers and it could be a bit dangerous to speculate because we could end up with very wrong conclusions just like Job’s friends did. We have to lean on what the scriptures reveal to us that God is perfect. I am certain He has some incredibly wise reasons for everything that has taken place.

[@Jimgoodwin846]

This was a great discussion. A great amount of the information was over my head. I too was raised in a Christian family; my parents were loving, honest and very positive role models. It has never been a stretch for me to see GOD as a loving, kind and forgiving Heavenly Father. Ryan mentioned that he had a relationship with Jesus early on…it reminds me of the painting “Footsteps” I believe it’s called. The painting depicts two people walking along together and soon turns into one person…it turns out the single footprints were from Jesus carrying the other person. It appears to me Ryan is still searching…we need to pray for Ryan.

[@serenitys4532]

It’s “footprints in the sand” One night I dreamed a dream. As I was walking along the beach with my Lord. Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life. For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand, One belonging to me and one to my Lord. After the last scene of my life flashed before me, I looked back at the footprints in the sand. I noticed that at many times along the path of my life, especially at the very lowest and saddest times, there was only one set of footprints. This really troubled me, so I asked the Lord about it. "Lord, you said once I decided to follow you, You'd walk with me all the way. But I noticed that during the saddest and most troublesome times of my life, there was only one set of footprints. I don't understand why, when I needed You the most, You would leave me." He whispered, "My precious child, I love you and will never leave you Never, ever, during your trials and testings. When you saw only one set of footprints, It was then that I carried you."

[@Jimgoodwin846]

Serenity S. Thank you for your comment…it was exactly what I was talking about in my post.

[@davidmedina7169]

I wonder if Ryan Bell’s experience in Adventism had anything to do with his unbelief. As a Seventh-day Adventist pastor, he would have had to defend some bizarre teachings of the SDA prophetess, Ellen White. He also expressed, in his early days, a dread of judgment. Adventism leads to that (recommend looking into the SDA Investigative Judgment teaching).

[@Mrslariss]

Absolutely. SDAs don’t believe in original sin or the spiritual nature of man among other things. Also Ellen taught that Christ came as a an example to teach us how we can perfectly keep the law. I don’t think I need to explain how that can skew an understanding of the true gospel. And of course the investigative judgement is the tumor that no one can excise from the heart of the sda church.

[@janet183]

Scripture warns us on destructive heresies …and doctrines of demons …false teachings that deny the deity of Christ,but then again if you do not have the spirit of Christ you do not belong to him … If I have not washed you you have no part with me … Beloved test the spirits to see if they are from God. We cannot know God if we do not believe in His begotten Son …it so sad 😞 what false religions and damnable doctrines do to peoples minds.

[@jadenjames1552]

InstaBlaster.

[@superfarful]

Realizing it doesn't make sense and the evidence so far has not shown for anything supernatural is what had to do with his unbelief

[@srourfamily]

thank God i dont follow this Bell person he probably leave when things get tough!! Good Luck hopefully Bell isnt delusion, he is atheist or confuse

[@janwaska521]

Well, I know a guy that for most of his childhood and adolescence years had no serious thoughts or heard about God that he recalls of. He graduated from high school in the most atheistic environment one can think of. The education and everything around was completely atheist. He studied engineering in a university in the capital of the CCCP. He met his wife in that same university and later got married in a civilian court in that city. When he was 30 they migrated to USA. They raised children. They both had good employments. In his mid to late 40s he was invited to church by his boss/supervisor. He accepted the invitation mainly to please his boss. Shortly before he turned 50 the veils that blurred his spiritual vision fell off and could shamefully realize that he had ignored or rejected his Creator for so many years (sin) but God had offered him the way to be forgiven and become God’s child through genuine repentance and saving faith in Christ alone. He thankfully accepted God’s gracious offer. Praise Adonai!

[@janwaska521]

Sean, at one point you had questions about Jonah being 3 days inside a large fish. I think that once I accepted Gen 1:1 then I wouldn’t have any problem with a large fish being swallowed by Jonah.

[@krixpop]

haha and vice versa, well said !

[@bigdeal39]

Actually.... recently their was a man in the news that was swallowed by a whale...and lived to tell about it ! He wasn't in it for 3 days....but the fact that he WAS in it and lived is amazing !

[@biddiemutter3481]

@@bigdeal39 yes, I saw that

[@yungdig1410]

Thank you for these types of dialogues. We sooo need them in this ‘cancel culture’. I am an immigrant who grew up Catholic and now understand the grace of God through Jesus. I too have lots of questions but my Faith is firm in the Lord Jesus Christ. Who gave His life for me and ‘whosoever ‘ believes in Him. And for that I am THANKFUL 💜

[@lepidoptera9337]

You mean you had enough of the requirement of having to prove yourself through actual deeds and you find the Evangelical way of getting saved for free much easier on you? Yeah, why should you have to work for heaven, right? That's just way too much hassle. ;-)

[@dansmith9724]

@Yundig Spot on. No amount of work can impress God, but Gods Grace through truly believing and accepting Jesus died for our sins is the only way to eternal life. After recieving Gods grace we then try to live a moral life. God knows we arent perfect and that we will sin again, but that sin has already been payed for.

[@lepidoptera9337]

@@dansmith9724 Dude... how about you actually read the bible for yourself instead of listening to the evangelical preacher who is taking your money for the empty promise of free salvation? First of all, god can't and won't take sin from you personally. You have to atone for that yourself. Do you even know where sin is defined in the bible? I bet with you that you don't.

[@dansmith9724]

@@lepidoptera9337 i wasnt talking to you. But as a response i havent been to church for over 30yrs and as for who i donate my money too, it wont be to help pay the legal fee's for pedo's. If one follows the money one will find the corrupt. If you go by road, all roads lead to Rome. I read my bible and pray regularly as well as watch worthy christian utube shows. My reply was too encourage this man and congratulating him on understanding Gods grace. Salvation isnt complicated, if it is and with hierarchy rank structure and pray to false God's. Without even mentioning works, buy indulgences to have salvation. Struth ! Its a massive corrupt beaurocracatic money making machine that places them between people and God. No priest ever should say, I am the way the truth and the light, no one goes to the father except by me, but they sure think you have to go through them. Its a personal relationship between a person and Jesus/God. Nothing else is required especially these traditional things the RCC has been inventing since 300ad or so. Maybe an extra indulgence or 2 can save someone who doesnt undertake a traditional ceremonial role. Even though the bible mentions none of that.

[@lepidoptera9337]

@@dansmith9724 The bible clearly says that one can only get to salvation through deeds. I don't know what book you are reading there, it is, for sure, not the same as my copy. Your hate for the Catholic Church is something that you have to work through on your own time. I don't give a frell.

[@donaldmcronald8989]

Can't wait for more of these vidz. Thanks!

[@janwaska521]

Justin, @1:41 that was very gotcha! again. Can he trust his eyes? Good catch! Well done.

[@gregbooker3535]

I don't see how that is a "gotcha", we learn from experience that trusting our eyes usually leads to safety and contentment, while not trusting them leads to disaster. The atheist "faith" that his eyes aren't deceiving him is nowhere near as blind as faith that somebody rose from the dead 2000 years ago. So even if both atheists and Christians must rely on faith, atheist "faith" is a hell of a lot more empirically justified than Christian faith.

[@gardenladyjimenez1257]

Fantasic discussion! Can't believe I managed to stick with 2 hours on a KZbin. Appreciate the depth of back and forth respectful discussion of key questions about faith from the two radically different views. Thanks!

[@Jimgoodwin846]

Surprised I stayed around for two hours myself…it was such a great discussion. I thought the questions at the end were so respectful too.

[@Becca_Lynn]

I didn't even realize it was 2 hours until after I'd finished the video and was going through the comments. wow! lol

[@dupersuper1000]

I feel bad for Ryan because he’s been put in a position of defending his decision when he’s not fully prepared for that kind of debate. But I do appreciate Sean and Justin for being so gracious toward him throughout the discussion. This was a great conversation. As an atheist, I found myself sort of yelling into my phone as I watched this, because I feel like Sean doesn’t fully understand or appreciate the best non-theistic explanations for things like the experience of “objectivity” in morality, or the ways that consciousness (and all other complex systems) can emerge spontaneously out of simpler systems working together. These phenomena are all explainable, in principle, without requiring a God to play a role. And I think Sean would actually come to agree if he really sought out the best of those arguments and took them seriously. But Sean is clearly an exceptionally smart person, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt on these things. As for Ryan, I think he’s done a great job of seeking the truth, wherever it leads. I sense that he is open to revising his views, and potentially returning to the Christian faith, which is a huge testament to his intellectual honesty. I count myself in that camp as well. Thanks to everyone involved for making this discussion possible.

[@kennylee6499]

what are these arguments?

[@dupersuper1000]

@@kennylee6499 which arguments are you referring to in particular?

[@zhugh9556]

Yeah I agree that Sean's statement about atheism automatically entailing certain things like that something can come from nothing is just a straw man. No atheists believe that something literally came from nothing. And I'm not even an atheist.

[@immanuel829]

Well, the hard problem of consciousness is not solved at all. Besides, EVERYBODY believes something: the natural sciences cannot answer the question whether matter and energy is all there is. Your free will alone shows: the self that is looking through your marvellous eyes cannot be reduced to physics and chemistry. "This conclusion strongly reinforces our belief in the human soul and in its miraculous origin in a divine creation." John Eccles, neuroscientist and Nobel laureate

[@dupersuper1000]

@@immanuel829 tons of hard problems remain unsolved. That’s the nature of hard problems. They tend to take a while to get solved. But that doesn’t imply that we need to reach for catch-all explanations that miraculously explain anything away. As they say, “a theory that explains everything explains nothing at all.” We have no reason not to reduce consciousness to chemical processes, nor do we need to solve the hard problem of consciousness in order to make that claim. It’s like saying, “until we have solved the hard problem of consciousness, we must assume that it’s possible the experience of consciousness is actually magic.” Until I have seen any evidence of magic elsewhere, why would I accept that as a possible explanation for anything? Just because a problem is hard to solve doesn’t mean it’s made any clearer by adding God to the discussion. All of that just screams “god of the gaps.” Even the opening line, “the hard problem of consciousness still hasn’t been solved” sort of begs the question, why is god not the broadly accepted explanation for SOLVED problems? Why is he only used as an explanation for the unsolved ones? Again, god of the gaps.

[@zach2980]

One of the most telling statements in this was when Ryan quoted to the effect "you can't make someone understand something when their job is dependent on them not".

[@zach2980]

@RetroMan Evolution is only the most well evidenced theory in science.😉 But hey, if you’re an American, you’re in good company.

[@zach2980]

@Amyra Batya 😉. If you don’t mind, explain how we came to be as you see it. Do you have some competing hypotheses?

[@zach2980]

@Amyra Batya those are “god of the gaps”. Essentially, “look at how complicated this is, therefore god”. Are you a proponent of a spoken into existence dirt man and rib woman? Do you have some actual evidence of that or otherwise?

[@zach2980]

@Amyra Batya if true, that science is engaged in some multi field evolutionary conspiracy, what do you think their end goal would be?

[@zach2980]

@Amyra Batya I am ex Christian, I read most of those Intelligent design books on my way out. Thanks for the recommendation though. Care to provide me with your competing hypotheses? Are you a literal Genesis proponent?

[@curiousgeorge555]

Please, more live discussions like this in churches.

[@isaiahjohn5801]

This is just wonderful I wish to be an apologetic like sean

[@latavious48]

Me too brother.. Sean is good great works

[@collectibles4u]

@@latavious48 You do know bibicaly anytime you give answer to why you believe your doing exactly that. 1 Peter 3:15 The word apologetics comes from the Greek word apologia meaning to give a defense. We are called to not live by blind faith but to seek truth and understanding. Proverbs 9:10. Please understand you don't have to be on the big stage to make a real impact for the kingdom of God. Apologetics flows from the heart of the believer and takes place everywhere the workplace, grocery store, at the park. Just follow the example of Matthew 5:16 and there will always be someone who will question the difference they see in your life. God bless and my the Lord grant you strength and wisdom. O and remember don't ever get to point you feel you half to have a answer to every question, Faith shouldn't be built upon you being able to answer ever objection.

[@trafficjon400]

You might regret you ever started this confusion.

[@janwaska521]

Sean made a very good point @ 45

[@markstevens7838]

I know its 5 years late but what a respectful open dialogue. I’m glad it wasn’t a debate in the formal sense. It was more of a mutual sharing. Great job guys.

[@Timtalks_]

both guys are brilliant with seemingly big hearts

[@biddiemutter3481]

What a fantastic event! Thanks

[@VincentCMercandetti]

Wow! If Sean didn't see his wife for a year, it's over - '"she's gone!" What a WEAK marriage! Good thing he didn't have to go away for 4 years like our grandfathers did in WWll.

[@franciscocepeda8416]

Believing atheism as true at the end Ryan mention how the Bereans didn’t take people at their word but went and investigated for themselves what they heard. That is mentioned several times in the Bible and that speaks to its transparency ✝❤🌎🌍🌏

[@kbeetles]

Brilliant! Both guests came across as knowledgable, honest and genuinely interested in each others' views. What a rare, enjoyable conversation!

[@georgejaquith4732]

Thank you so much for this presentation.

[@123mneil]

1:06:00 Sean, it's okay to say I don't know. Why is there something instead of nothing? I don't know? Why am I aware of myself? I don't know. I want to know. How can we learn if we are already sure that we know the right answer.

[@123mneil]

1:18:00 Why is it superior to believe in an objective morality if we can't know for sure what it is?

[@marialuisacruz7514]

Something instead of nothing….. AGAPEO LOVE…. It is a CREATIVE FORCE

[@geraldpolmateer3255]

Those who place their actions on rational thoughts only, will find themselves falling short on every explanation. One who can explain everything makes themselves the standard of God when that is not possible.

[@MybridWonderful]

Easy, I don't know. All the big questions Sean puts out in this debate can easily be answered with I don't know. Religion, noun: a group of people too arrogant to admit I don't know.

[@garyfrancis6193]

It’s not a question of belief but our conception of God.

[@janwaska521]

@1:34 Justin hit it right on target referring to “naturalism of the gaps” Excellent ! Go Justin!

[@williambecker5811]

No, Justin completely misses the God of the gaps vs induction. Example: if we have 5 boxes and open them up to black swan, black swan, black swan, black swan. A "God of the gaps" would be saying "we don't know what's in the 5th box so I'm going to sway it's a white swan". Induction is saying "we don't know what's in the 5th box but if anything, it's probably a black swan". If you look throughout history, everything we can fully explain (lightning, diversification of species, floods, etc.) that was once either a gap in our knowledge or attributed to God has been proven to be natural. Saying we can't explain X but a natural solution might be found is proper induction. Saying we can't explain X so God is God of the gaps.

[@ibelieveitcauseiseentit9630]

@@williambecker5811 When the fundamental constants of the universe itself seems fine tuned to allow the possibility of life, even according to atheists themselves, by their own admission, agree that it seems fine tuned. When atheist themselves admit that the information in DNA in the machinery inside of the cell seem to be fine tuned, when even atheists like Richard Dawkins say that biology "is the study of what seems to be designed.". But then the same atheists, even after admitting that the universe seems design, and biology seems design, turn around and say that there's probably a natural cause, even after admitting that the universe and biology have the appearance of design... That is indeed naturalism of the gaps. When the only time we've ever seen life emerge, is when it emerged from previous life, and when the only time we've ever seen mind or consciousness emerge it's always been from previous mind and consciousness, yet we say that the first mind in the first life probably came from non-mind and non life... That's is indeed naturalism of the gaps.

[@kingsxkids]

This was really well done Justin 🙂 Both fellows were interesting and engaging speakers . Is atheism dead? By Eric Metaxes Is a scholarly book which demonstrates God’s role in physics, chemistry and biology. Eric answers a lot of these questions which were raised here

[@galatician8063]

Great discussion! Seek the truth!Hebrews 11:6 : "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

[@joels310]

In my opinion one reason Ryan lost his faith is because he allowed himself to take political beliefs with how God is suppose to be, rather than taking God's instruction to inform his political beliefs. When God's commands did not match with his political views he took his morality over God's.

[@elianasmith286]

Ryan gives me the impression that he knows God is real, but doesn't understand Him fully or agree with all of God's ideas, so he just walked away from Him. He sounded like a theist to me. Even said he's not confident in his atheists belief 1:01:30 Sean is so convincing. The resurrection is real, Jesus is real, God is real and our lack of understanding doesn't make them less real. Thank you both for a wonderful debate!

[@shizuwolf]

Could you do what he did?

[@elianasmith286]

@@shizuwolf No. I could never deny God's existence or deny Jesus.

[@shizuwolf]

@@elianasmith286 not saying you have to deny anything. Just take a break break from it. A spiritual fasting of sorts

[@elianasmith286]

@@shizuwolf lol. I don't need to take a break from God. Thats silly. Hes the reason for my existence. He fills me with peace, joy and grace every day. I've lived without Him before and im not interested in living like that ever again ;)

[@shizuwolf]

@@elianasmith286 and I thought I was a cripple

[@janwaska521]

At around 1:12 Ryan talks about trial and error historically has taught us to figure out how to live peacefully in harmony, but is that true? When was the last war or crime recorded in history?

[@TheGariego]

In the Christian West we have kind of found a way to live in peace based on Christian virtues and morality. Much of the world still lives in servitude and violence.

[@joels310]

Intellectually the difference God makes is is the foundation on which your world view is grounded. We are either made in the image of God or highly evolved primates. That informs an incredible amount of how we view the world. It's not just pride and hubris when people proclaim the absence of a creator, but it is the thing that Satan told Eve in the garden, that her gaining the knowledge of good and evil will make her like God. I think a lot of people miss one key lesson in Genesis 3 is by saying that you know better than God and his commands you are declaring yourself to be God and reject him in the process. Again he also talks about social justice and outgroups, serving the community which is noble of him but the language he uses betrays his conflict he went through and ultimately chose his own moral law (political views) and discarded his salvation so he could be more inclusive. Christ went to the outcasts, broke bread with tax collectors and prostitutes but it was they who walked away changed not Christ. His fall happened because he was trying to conform to the world. Instead of being in the world he became of the world and was not able to call evil by its name and so lost his faith. So dispite being raised in the church, even obtaining a degree in theology, he never gave a reason why he believes Christian theology is wrong. Merely that his world view was at odds with his faith.

[@bigwill7097]

By saying " if this is true" is not evidence. It's just begging the question

[@Becca_Lynn]

What a refreshing discussion. Obviously as a Christian I am biased but I truly pray Ryan has a blessed life and finds the truth he's seeking! 😊

[@ErA-el1je]

Jesus is The TRUTH, The WAY and The LIFE. Praying Ryan truly finds Jesus the only Truth!

[@timkusan4370]

The most cordial debate between an Atheist and a Christian I’ve ever seen so far. Amazing!

[@tex959]

There are many other cordial debates if you're interested. Watch any by alex o'connor or scott clifton.

[@gregbooker3535]

Yeah, but wouldn't a less polite debate have greater potential to spur the viewers to examine the vidence. Jesus Christ, you youtube hippies act like the main purpose of an atheist/christian debate is to show off one's politeness skills ! Sometimes being polite is counterproductive. Lots of Christians would say Sean isn't doing his job very well because he doesn't imitate Paul and doesn't bite back against the evil of unbelief anywhere near as harshly as Paul and Jesus did. But today's Christians don't care. If Sean helped Ryan change a tire, that would probably be what the vast majority of KZbinrs remembered about the debate. Holy fuck.

[@scythermantis]

I don't think that the purpose of conversation is primarily to 'convince' people through propositional argumentation, and I think that witnessing involves exactly the types of things Josh was doing, but even if I did think how you did, I wouldn't think ending my comment with taking the Lord's name in vain would be being a good Christian.

[@ErA-el1je]

Please invite Jen Ham as a guest. Ty

[@markboy618]

I wondered how and why Ryan Bell became a Pastor, not knowing his deep conviction about God Whom he was supposed to serve as clergy. What Board member qualified him without knowing he had real salvation by grace conversion? Sean McDowell was brilliant and tactful in handling the questions for Ryan. A lesson of good Apologetics is winning the person over vs. winning the argument ultimately. I pray that Ryan finds God and goes back this time with a real conversion experience baptized by the Holy Spirit where his salvation will never be lost or in doubt.

[@gregbooker3535]

Are you kidding? This "discussion" was absolutely PATHETIC.

[@kaeso101]

23:52 lol they both turned heads at the same time

[@sciencesaves]

LOL

[@suzettemacey9632]

How wonderful that we can respectfully and thoughtfully debate such an important topic. I have always taught my own children to search for truth and never, ever stop questioning. Christ wants us to find truth and all sides have the right and the duty to seek this. I did find it unusual that nobody brought up the Science behind so much of Biblical text. Perhaps Dr. Hugh Ross may have some insight into the questions brought forth here. Thank you.

[@redpillpusher]

suzette macey ..please give an example of “science behind biblical text”. what would you do if one or all of your children came to not believe in god or gods.

[@ttamcc.4674]

@@redpillpusher shut your mouth and look up who Dr. Hugh Ross is and that will explain your question

[@redpillpusher]

TTAMC C. ...I will not “shut” my “mouth” there’s this thing called freedom of speech and I will use this freedom to bring forth enlightenment opposing the tyranny of ALL harmful/dangerous religious dogma. That said give the best example of the harmonization of the buy-bull and science. because Im assuming you have familiarized yourself with hugh ross’s work on the subject since you’ve referenced him.

[@will95515]

Good job teaching your kids that

[@jtslev]

The best part was when he jokingly said, “if Sean is a presuppositionalist, I wasn’t going to have this conversation. Because the debate is over before it even starts.” Then he proceeded to admit that in his worldview, there’s no such thing as objective value, while trying to make a claim to why a particular approach is more valuable than another. Haha! It’s no wonder he doesn’t like presuppositionalists…they wouldn’t allow you to get away with such blatant inconsistencies.

[@kensey007]

I presuppose that they would allow it. By arguing that they wouldn't allow it you admit the point that they would allow it. Thats how the argument would go.

[@gregbooker3535]

there was no inconsistency between "there are no objective values and "one approach is more valuable than another". Presuppositionalists are loons, I've kicked them to the moon and back on everything from Van Til to compatibalism.

[@jtslev]

@@gregbooker3535 one approach “is” more valuable than another. Sounds like an absolute statement? How is it that a subjectivist can make absolute statements?

[@gregbooker3535]

@@jtslev "Greg Booker one approach “is” more valuable than another. Sounds like an absolute statement? How is it that a subjectivist can make absolute statements?" ----------------Because "subjectivist" doesn't necessarily mean somebody who thinks absolutely everything is subjective. If you had paid attention, you would have found out that I was talking about an "approach". I didn't say everything is subjective. My position is that morals are subjective. That doesn't mean I deny the existence of all possible absolutes. Maybe you should be a little more discerning? When a moral skeptic or nihilist says there is a "better" approach, he is merely speaking from his subjective point of view, he is not making statements about all of reality.

[@jtslev]

@@gregbooker3535 where did you get that morals are subjective? Is that absolutely true? Or just your subjective opinion? If it’s just your subjective opinion, then why are you making an absolute statement about the reality of morality?

[@mashah1085]

Seat let it slip at 54:45 "How we evaluate the evidence depends upon the expectations we bring to the table". He's admitting that his evaluation of evidence is based on his expectation that it will support his religious views. Now after that comment he decried skeptics for wanting "an unrealistic standard for evens that happened 2000 years ago", but he is using HIS standard for determining if an event that occurred 2000 years ago is "true". He's basically saying that he will accept evidence, if it supports his beliefs and criticizes skeptics for demanding "too high a standard" if they don't accept it.

[@Tim.Foster123]

He's speaking extemporaneously, so his choice of words may have been imprecise, but the general thought is quite correct. The conclusions you take away from the discussion table will always be the result of your subjective evaluation of empirical evidence, and your method of reasoning. The simple fact is that not everybody evaluates evidence the same, and not everybody uses proper and sound reasoning. Put those two factors together come and you can account for the Wild disparities of beliefs that are in the world today. For any given proposition, and any given argument, the line of "Reasonable Doubt" will vary from person to person

[@mashah1085]

@@Tim.Foster123 So there is no "universal truth"...just subjective truth?

[@mashah1085]

@@Tim.Foster123 Would a person whose religious beliefs are the bedrock of their psychological well-being...accept evidence that it was false?

[@Tim.Foster123]

@@mashah1085 > So there is no "universal truth"...just subjective truth? Not what I meant or said. Please re-read.

[@Tim.Foster123]

@@mashah1085 > Would a person whose religious beliefs are the bedrock of their psychological well-being...accept evidence that it was false? That's going to depend on the person. (that should be obvious) Is there a point you're trying to make?

[@allygail424]

I think without an experience with the Holy Spirit and learning how to hear the voice of God through him, it will be difficult to hold on to the Christian faith. Connection with God in relationship is essential. I think many Christians actually live as atheists because they don’t include talking and listening to God in their daily lives.

[@jefferystanley9466]

I don't remember the book it's in. But some one said Lord I believe but help me with my unbelief

[@PeterDixonMedia]

Just after 1:17:00 Ryan does a really great job of discussing how a secular person can come to embracing morals and values.

[@airpollotoledo]

Is Sean wearing cordovan shoes? Excellent conversation btw! God bless this show always.

[@taramckinley7585]

Cordovan shoes rock!😄I agree though, absolutely great show.

[@zacharyjohnson7740]

Why is the moderator being biased? Supposed to be unbiased!

[@darknight8139]

16 years I was Christian eight as an 7th day adventist, I'm now an atheist. Biggest issue was "the hidden god" and then I really got into biblical accuracy and Evolutionary biology. Solidifying that the probability of jehovah was that of the celestial tea pot.

[@JohnVandivier]

"I was a bad prayer" :( aw poor guy we love u!!!

[@sindoorbelic8036]

My friend yesterday said. Why would God punish me for eternity and I never asked Him to create me in the first place ? Isnt that completely unfair ? I didnt have the answer to that question .

[@dianadogaru360]

Of curse it is! Hell isn't a jewish concept, it's a greek one. After deluding mankind that he doesn't even exist, Satan's most brilliant invention is definitely the Hell-idea!

[@sindoorbelic8036]

@@dianadogaru360 Wait a minute. Why would satan want people to belive in hell ? No one wants to end up there and all would go with Gods will and fully obey the word if they were sure that hell exists. I belive you dont have a point there.

[@gregbooker3535]

Give her the Calvinist answer: God thinks his glorification in watching you burn in hell is more important than your physical experience of pain.

[@froilananthony7391]

all of them are great .

[@ItsMisterWilliams]

They put tape over the "Fiji" label. Hah.

[@eros7909]

32:34 Sean hits it on the nail, he is essentially saying, it’s important to confirm your bias, as long as you sort of guid your beliefs toward your own conclusion you should be fine. This is my understanding I’m open to criticism.

[@ohdehhan]

@45:30 "What a worldview has to explain..." Help!! I can't stand not having answers to what we don't understand!! Thor and Wotan made sense to the people who believed them. Yahweh makes sense to Sean. Great argument.

[@marialuisacruz7514]

KINDA LIKE JOB 38

[@JonathanHolt1988]

I notice this among intellectuals (especially Christian ones) and I'm guilty of it too and it drives me crazy: Person asks question and then talks for another five minutes providing (mostly) unnecessary context before allowing the other person to answer.

[@lepidoptera9337]

That's people who can't get over it that they are not standing on the stage.

[@gregbooker3535]

I notice that too and I hate it just as much. It's because those asking the question don't know how to do it properly.

[@braves3526]

Just amazing, amazing debate

[@immanuel829]

Around 1:50:00 Ryan says (paraphrased) "everything has a cause, so God also must have a cause". No, only things that BEGIN TO EXIST have a cause. How can Ryan not see that? Wondering where Ryan stands now...

[@gregbooker3535]

Why should god be an exception to the rule of causation? Can you provide evidence that god is eternal? You are like an ant who deduces from the size and power of human beings that human beings must be all-powerful and all-wise. LOL. Maybe God is just a really smart really powerful creature.

[@TheProdigalMeowMeowMeowReturns]

I couldn’t finish this. Ryan’s confusions were really hard to listen to.

[@johnhanks4260]

Truth is Subconscious, like beauty.

[@scythermantis]

"People don't choose their beliefs" ... A few minutes later ... "People arrive at their values through a process of reason" Which is it, Ryan???

[@kitelouma]

I believe Ryan J Bell will return to the fold. God can do anything.

[@jamesmccluskey8055]

Is murder Wrong according Exodus 20:13?

[@susanne_christine]

It sounds like the age old lie "Did God really say?" played a large role in Ryan's move to Atheism, referring to the part where he started doubting the truth of scripture and what Paul said. Once you doubt any part of scripture or the truth, is it possible for Christianity to be a logical choice at that point. If part of the Bible can't be trusted, can any of it?

[@gregbooker3535]

How do you explain the Christian faith of Lydia and Timothy McGrew? They deny biblical inerrancy, which means they think there is likely at least one error in the bible originals. Do you fear that they will succumb to apostasy?

[@slimdusty6328]

Right and wrong, could be rephrased as what works or what doesn't work. It is strategy. Ryan is against racism even if he'd die while he were trying to stop it, in the same sense that the buffalo are against lion attack even although they also might die while they were attempting to resist it. Evolution is not necessarily dog eat dog. Survival of a species, can involve acts of sacrifice. I don't understand why believers get stuck on this idea, that if a being didn't believe in a God, that this being would necessarily then proceed to just live life so as to please themselves. A buffalo doesn't proceed to live life to please itself. If a Buffalo were to just live life so as to please itself, then they mightn't bother to stand against the lions attack. They might run, and allow the weaker animal to be eaten. But, our survival as a species isn't always only about ourselves I loved the video. An interesting discussion

[@nietzsche1991]

@1:14:40 That is an excellent answer by Josh!

[@TheSmithDorian]

6:01 "So when I got back I thought - let me find a new Church" Why? Why exactly do you want to find a new Church? What is the purpose of belonging to or attending a Church? It seems as though it has little to do with God or Jesus and more to do with your personal feelings of insecurity. If Jesus wanted people to attend Church he wouild have said so.

[@xonathan5019]

There's lots of fruitful and spiritually beneficial outcomes from going to church

[@atlallthetime8193]

He did...

[@narutofan360]

Church is the bride of Jesus....we have to go.....but this guy didn't say Jesus once in his opening 🙏God bless us all in the powerful name of Jesus

[@semperfi6098]

Hebrews 10:25 ESV Not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

[@gregbooker3535]

@@semperfi6098 Hebrews 10:25 wasn't written by Jesus. Try again.

[@yarnybart5911]

Imagine if they had events like this in the middle East. What a better world it could be, especially for middle easterners.

[@carrow2250]

Is it easier to live life as an Atheist or a true Christian?

[@superfarful]

What's a "true" christian

[@carrow2250]

@@superfarful another way to look at it is they are a professional christian. Just like professional basketball players and professional golfers spend countless hours getting good at what they do, A true or professional Christian shouldn’t just be spending one hour a week at church they should be spending countless hours getting good at what they do

[@gregbooker3535]

@C Arrow "Is it easier to live life as an Atheist or a true Christian?" ------------That depends entirely on how the person is mentally and psychologically geared. Those who are more intellectual won't be able to be Christians very long because of the undeniable contradiction between biblical ideology and daily reality. For other people, the good feelings that come with Christianity are more important to them than than the above-cited contradictions. And we couldn't even get anywhere if we conducted a poll and 1000 Christians testified that life is easier as a Christian, because we know that if they find life unbearable, they have a motive to impress their Christian friends and continue fronting as if they are spiritual warriors.

[@redpillpusher]

there’s only one viable substantiation for an example of “objective morality” and that is biology. if anyone else has any evidence of another avenue for this please demonstrate.

[@bloui1033]

how is biology a substantiation of objective morality?

[@redpillpusher]

bloui1033 ...other animals show clear demonstrations of loyalty, empathy and the sense of self and fair play, social features like hierarchy, leaders and subordinates are all present in other animals bedside humans. this demonstrates that a moral framework is a feature of biology. in a nutshell [a moral framework that is observable outside of the human species]. this also makes sense from an evolutionary perspective.

[@bloui1033]

@@redpillpusher animals also show brutality, incest, infanticide, selffishness, parasitism & lots of other things we wouldn't consider moral behavior. these behaviors can also be explained from an evolutionary perspective. it's evolutionarily beneficial to a particular lion's genetic lineage if he kills the young of other males birthed by the same particular sexual partner. It's beneficial for bee & ant colonies for certain members of the species to be subjugated to other members. So why are some evolutionary conducive behaviors considered "moral" but others aren't?

[@redpillpusher]

@@bloui1033 my point was simply that there is only one demonstration of an objective (i.e. outside of our species) moral framework (good and bad) that is observable and that for someone to say a "god" is their reference point for an objective morality is bs because no one can demonstrate a god even exists. I wasn't getting into the human abstracts of right and wrong. thats a whole other discussion I'm not about to try to have in a youtube comment sections.

[@bloui1033]

@@redpillpusher I know that was your point, but your point is wrong aside from the question of God. Biology (& science in general) can't demonstrate an objective moral framework bc it can only tell us about physical facts. But moral facts aren't physical facts.

[@grantr1556]

Personal bookmark: 1:06:10

[@fredricthomas6654]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats" putting the response to suffering on humankind ( especially those who have the means to help...) not God? God may be a scapegoat...

[@gregbooker3535]

The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats forces Christians to concede that salvation will come to millions of people who never accepted Jesus as their savior.

[@mien4374]

I feel like Ryan never really had faith, but religion to him was more of an intellectual practice which the limit is his own intellect.

[@davidagnew7260]

I am 43 minutes into the podcast, and I have yet to hear that God is supernatural, and He meets his followers on a supernatural way that confirms He exists and is true!!

[@Prod_iMan]

No that does not prove anything. If there is nothing empirical then really there is no evidence of that. That is purely your opinion

[@merrybolton2135]

If you seek anything with enough fervour [surprise surprise ] you can find it . all you have to do is to suspend critical thinking.

[@User_Happy35]

I disagree. Truth and critical thinking aren't mutually exclusive.

[@garyfrancis6193]

To skip all the compliments and thankyous go to 3:22.

[@gregbooker3535]

I share your frustration. I cannot even fathom how they could seriously have thought this was the least bit productive. I thought they were going to cry and hold each other fertheluvaChrist.

[@gregbooker3535]

I'm still waiting for somebody to point out that these discussions are not in the effort to provide something "nice" or "respectful", they are intended to educate and refute.

[@davidsprouse151]

I like how host called the atheist "our atheist". The problem with him is not the search for god but the search for an identity.

[@redpillpusher]

1:16:40 - 1:17:05 ...wow beautifully said sean mcdowell how you go from a tautology so smoothly into circularity ...bravo 👏🏽 1:15:28 ...news flash sean evolution is not about the individual. 1:25:30 seans answer is basically .. ‘just assume god exists’ ..in essence be a presup.

[@robertmcguckin4562]

What's that book that he refers to?

[@sarahgabaldon3216]

Sean you mention that you believe in the “Big Bang Theory”. Do you mix your beliefs on creation with evolution? Could you elaborate?

[@lepidoptera9337]

He believes in a tv show? Wow. Talk about the strength of make-belief! :-)

[@peterpackiam]

Christians, incline to be good, out of trepidation, not because it's the right thing to do, Cheers.

[@marialuisacruz7514]

We call it the FEAR OF GOD Sometimes it is a good thing Too many of us CHRISTIANS FORGET or are ignorant of that side of GOD. The one that presented HIMSELF ON THE HOLY MOUNT. Hebrews 12 Thank GOD JESUS STANDS FOR US. I can Come Boldly through the Throne Room of God Because of the finished work at the CROSS.

[@anthonycook8703]

31.20 " . . . we don't really choose our beliefs. At all." Maybe not entirely but I HAVE chosen to believe in God or whatever you want to call it, and I'm open to all (or maybe most of) the things Christians believe. I.e. I know I could be wrong but on the other hand I could be wrong if I chose the alternative and lived as an atheist. It doesn't bother me that we all have to take God's existence on faith. One thing I do know is that years ago I witnessed a genuinely supernatural event, that I was, thankfully, able to describe in detail to my girlfriend while it was happening. She knows I was telling her truthfully about what I was seeing and still remembers the incident, in August 1996, clearly. This incident alone is enough for me to reject materialist atheism, there is no question in my mind that there is more to life than atheist science allows. And that makes me ask, constantly, why was a gift like that given to me and not to any of my contentedly atheist friends so that they would also be lead to a belief in "God".

[@gregbooker3535]

I would give fair warning that you avoid taking god-stuff too seriously. The concept is far too plagued with ambiguity and outright falsehood to justify thinking any of it is worth becoming as fanatical as apostle Paul was about it. If God wants to save you as much as fundamentalist Christians say, he will not merely sit back and toy with you as you seek him. So if after sincere seeking, you don't sense any "god", it might actually be because whatever "god" exists is less interested in human salvation than the bible says. It's not like there's any real proof that biblical conceptions of god are some inerrant final court of appeal. They didn't know any better about god than Christians of today.

[@melissasw64]

Ryan Bell thinks William Lane Craig doesn't have the courage to debate him publicly? Surely, I misunderstood that.

[@gregbooker3535]

You didn't misunderstand. It's an open secret in apologetics circles that William Lane Craig is highly selective of those he will debate, and he avoids those who are capable of trouncing him. For a long time he refused to debate anybody lacking a ph.d, which transparently saved him from certain defeat since many atheist intellectuals don't have ph.ds and yet could have kicked Craig to the moon and back in any debate.

[@melissasw64]

@@gregbooker3535 I doubt anyone could kick Craig anywhere. I think I can understand Craig not wanting to waste his time arguing with an angry, uneducated, uninformed atheist who doesn't want to follow any rules and is probably angry at the world.

[@Zenithilos11]

“Would you like immortality?” OF COURSE! Who wouldn’t? At least having the choice. The quest for immortality is a part of being human

[@madivirden443]

Haha I wonder why! My guess is because our maker put eternity into our hearts!

[@MikeLeonard]

I wouldn't want immortality.

[@gregbooker3535]

I don't think love of immortality is that popular. Many people I've met lead normal lives, but also agree with me that life is overrated.

[@N3CN45]

@@MikeLeonard Depends on the circumstances. Immortality as a 25yr old that can only become wiser? Along with humans only advancing and not destroying each other in some sort of WW3 scenario or otherwise? I’ll take that.

[@patriley1026]

There is only Justice.

[@hallumwent4205]

Awesome

[@kimmyswan]

“Feels does not equal reals”. Sean used words like “it seems to me” and “I just can’t wrap my head around” and “it just makes sense” over and over and over again. But, what “feels” like the truth and what “seems” most plausible, especially when it comes to big questions like: consciousness, free will, origin of life, and where our universe came from, is merely an appeal to ignorance.

[@gregbooker3535]

You are right, but I think from the content of the discussion, the participants intended this less as a serious "debate" and more as a "fellowship". I'm an atheist and I've flayed Sean alive (intellectually) many times, starting with my rebuttal to his absurd Ph.d thesis that tried to prove the original 12 disciples all died as "martyrs".

[@marcusisrealious1255]

They went out from us BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF US

[@JnWayn]

The resurrection is a curiosity stopper, not an explanation for anything. If after questioning the illogical parts of the bible, you settled it by thinking about the resurrection, then all you did was used an illogical emotional appeal to stop yourself questioning, but you resolved nothing, or your standard of resolution is very low

[@ohdehhan]

@43:20 In response to Justin's question what reason do you believe, Sean says he believes the Bible. You're a Christian, we get that, I want to know WHY you believe the Bible.

[@littlelo9751]

Although Ryan was a pastor, it doesn't sound like he ever had a relationship with Christ. He didn't lose anything he never had it. 😢

[@kimmmimemwest1895]

You can't speak for him .. he he said he believes .. then that's that . You believe in Jesus with no good evidence or proof

[@jennywillis8472]

@@kimmmimemwest1895 Satan believes in Jesus. Belief alone does not save one's soul. It's having a relationship with Jesus as LORD!

[@kimmmimemwest1895]

@@jennywillis8472 the issue is not soul saving the issue is belief in Jesus

[@gaffster787]

I had a relationship with Santa Claus.

[@christopherzhou5361]

@@gaffster787 No, you did not. Unless you happened to meet someone somewhere whose name is "Santa Claus."

[@ankomitarashi7083]

it's so weird to look into it and see episcopalians are so into "social justice" people. My mother isnt, nor is my uncle - the exposure I've had in Texas and Florida is vastly different than what I continue to hear about us.

[@PAWiley]

One of the most simple but frustrating hurdles I find when conversing with a person of faith about what I believe, why I believe it, and more or less how I got there and why I stay, with slight, negligible deviations as I learn more, is that they tend to first assume that anyone that “no longer believes,” got there because of some trauma or difficulties or confusion; that they’ve “lost faith,” or “turned away from god.” Because most of them have held their beliefs as truths since before they even knew how to analyze an idea on their own (young children), and because it is so wired into their makeup, their very psyche, they find it difficult or often impossible to understand any other story besides the man/woman that “has lost their faith / turned away from god.” Then you have people like myself that whether they believed as a child, or simply grew up without the indoctrination, never truly believed / had faith in a Christian god past those same childhood fancies akin to Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. When I was a young child God obviously was more important and serious than Santa Claus, but certainly no more real. I cannot say that my realization that Santa was a kind of myth directly correlated with my eventual inability to take Christianity seriously, but I can say that, for me, it was just as easy. My point is, there never really was any faith to lose, no God to be angry with, no religion or higher power to turn away from in frustration, confusion, disgust, self pity, as anything like thoughtful faith / belief simply wasn’t there in the first place. Folks like this who have come to at least lean towards atheism intellectually, whose perception of reality rely on their general acceptance of leading neural sciences and particle physics, whose driving factors in their beliefs stem entirely from the best and most logical conclusions, this person seems to be very difficult for your average religious person to understand, much less accept. This seems to me to be one of the biggest yet most simple, obvious of hurdles for people of faith to climb over. If a person cannot compute that my own emotions and life struggles and hardships have absolutely nothing to do with my belief in a supernatural being, how can we possibly have a rational and beneficial conversation about ourselves and about the world we live in? , Over many years, and I’ve had dozens and dozens of conversations with all types of people of faith, of many different ages, different walks of life, and with drastically varying degrees of belief, and cannot think of one of them that DIDNT assume my lack of faith was the product of some life trauma. There seems to be a kind of schism, a wall, an ingrained and unquestioned understanding of life and our place in it that makes it damn near impossible for a sincerely religious person to understand, to even have room in their mind, for the concept of a person developing an atheistic perspective by way of intellect, investigation, research, etc. Why is that? I believe the most obvious reason is that the WAY in which they believe in and accept their god is almost entirely different than the way in which I do NOT believe. Faith and these forms of belief, and “giving your will over to God,” they rely on this notion that they’re beyond science, beyond the material, beyond math beyond reason, and those are the very reasons blind faith is so important, and so darn soecial! So it makes sense most of them cannot comprehend such a foreign way of reasoning (despite the fact that in any other area of life, these same people generally trust, rely on and benefit from science). If you can convince a person of faith that their very idea/concept of faith-being a special connection to the supernatural beyond all reason, proof, investigation-is in itself a trick (or in the very least help them understand that even if it’s not a trick, it sure as hell seems like one to any objective observer), only then will they be able to consider what someone like me would call “reason,” (insofar as religion goes). So far I’ve never been able to lead a believer to such waters. They may agree with me on 90% of my arguments against, say, organized religion and still be unable or unwilling to even acknowledge the logic behind this … loophole. The fact that these same kinds of tricks are supposedly used by satan on humans is entirely lost on them. There have been times where a friend who believes in a Christian god comes upon evidence and reasoning-on their own, which is pivotal-that leads them to start questioning much of what they’ve always just at accepted, and every time I’ve witnessed this happening, almost as soon as that light bulb comes on above their head 💡, they begin to actively withdraw from that evidence and those questions almost on instinct so as not to disrupt their own beliefs. I’ve even heard a friend in this position say things such as, “no, no… I shouldn’t be thinking about those things.” 😳 Crazy, right? Without even realizing it, it seems, they begin to shut down and ignore these provocative thoughts and feelings, as if they know the reality of things would be too difficult and disruptive to their lifelong, ingrained beliefs. Another big part of why it’s so difficult for people of faith to even consider, much less understand, how and why a person could possibly NOT believe in god at ALL is due to their ingrained understanding/belief that humans are not capable of love, compassion, or anything even resembling altruism if left to their own devices, and necessarily require some top down power structure in order to be decent human beings. This perception of our species as a whole, as well as individually, is the same when considering a human’s “purpose and/or meaning,” that if some omnipotent creator hadn’t planned it all out beforehand, those very notions would be impossible, non-existent. There seems to be this insidious fear, this ingrained, unquestioned but deep-rooted fear that if there really is no god, then life has no meaning and we might as well just curl up and die. That without the promise of an infinite, and infinitely wonderfully perfect afterlife, without that big payout, people simply would have no reason to live. It’s not only false, wrong, and demonstrably so, it’s also a terribly disheartening, negative and stifling way of viewing our species. Again, such a seemingly uncomplicated shift of perspective lies at the heart of your average human’s inability to let go of the idea of god, or even the need for one. When more people than not, as in society as a whole, finally come to understand and accept how patently wrong and false and detrimental these ideas are, only then will we be able to take responsibility for our past, present and future, appreciate how finite and precious consciousness really is, and begin to grow and evolve past the ancient but ever present divisions that have always plagued us.

[@lepidoptera9337]

I got to non-believing as an eight year old in a church. The priest was giving a very lame afternoon mass and it became obvious even to that eight year old that he didn't dig his job, either. Traumatic? Not so much. Just plain old boring. Now, if god can't even prevent an eight year old child from going to hell for eternity over a priest who clearly shouldn't have been in that church, then what good is he? Right? :-)

[@gregbooker3535]

I've always said that the sheer obstinacy of Christian faith arises more likely from the Christian's finding something comforting about their faith and thus not wanting to let go of the teddy bear. And since most people aren't intellectually oriented, obstinate Christian faith has no deeper basis than that the Christian found that faith to be useful and productive for his or her own life. it's also hard to deconvert Mormons, whose faith is even more ridiculous than Christianity. Evolution has produced a generation that says "if it works, don't fix it". Atheism doesn't predict that modern civilized humans will be consistent in their beliefs and acts, so the absolute contradiction between certain religious faith and how the real world demonstrably works is only to be expected.

[@scythermantis]

If there is a machine learning algorithm (there may already be one) which you can input all of your biometric data into, as well as that of your significant other, and it will predict with nearly perfect accuracy whether you are a match for each other, or whether you would be happier leaving each other, would you do it? It's all based on particle physics and neurosciencr, right? NO ONE, NOT EVEN YOU, REALLY LIVES THIS WAY.

[@davidfaulkner8396]

I wonder if any of you have read any of the intellectual arguments for the reasons for faith in the God of the Bible by professional scientists or former militant atheists or cynics ? The famous debate ( available on UTube) between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox on Dawkins book The God Delusion is well reasoned . Lennox is a professor emeritus of maths at Oxford University and has spent a large part of his career debating and discussing the rationale for the Christian Faith with atheists and persons of other faiths . Also J Warner Wallace who was a cynic towards the Christian Faith until his middle 30’s has become a believer and his fascinating presentation of his professional’ cold case detective’ approach in comparing Jesus with other similar Gods or beliefs is well worth a listen . What I find interesting is the stories out there by former non believers who were either cynics or militantly anti-Christian or indeed of other faiths . I would also listen to Rosario Butterfield’s account of her slow realisation of truth in the Bible . She was the professor of English and Queer theory at Syracuse University. She set out to write a paper on the false narrative in the Bible and was over a long time persuaded to convert to Christ through what she read in the scriptures as well as having discussions with other believers. Her journey is available on UTube as “ The secret thoughts of an unlikely convert “

[@gregbooker3535]

@@davidfaulkner8396 "I wonder if any of you have read any of the intellectual arguments for the reasons for faith in the God of the Bible by professional scientists or former militant atheists or cynic?" ----------I've been doing counter-apologetics for more than 25 years. I've read everything by Habermas, Licona, Strobel, Josh McDowell, Sean McDowell, Wi.L. Craig, Tim and Lydia McGrew, Walter Martin, Bart Ehrman, James White, J. Warner Wallace, Frank Turek, Norman Geisler, Gleason Archer, etc, etc. But the only thing that counts here is if I can give reasonable rebuttal to any argument YOU make, such as arguing that I'm "without excuse", etc, etc. I don't seek to disprove Christianity....I seek to falsify the biblical notion that all unbelievers who reject the gospel are fools. "The famous debate ( available on UTube) between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox on Dawkins book The God Delusion is well reasoned. Lennox is a professor emeritus of maths at Oxford University and has spent a large part of his career debating and discussing the rationale for the Christian Faith with atheists and persons of other faiths." -------------I differ from the new atheists. I don't try to falsify religion. I merely falsify the religious notion that atheism must always be foolish, or that rejection of the gospel must always be foolish. That being the case, exactly how a Christian theist or philosopher would answer Dawkins is irrelevant. I offer something different. "Also J Warner Wallace who was a cynic towards the Christian Faith until his middle 30’s has become a believer and his fascinating presentation of his professional’ cold case detective’ approach in comparing Jesus with other similar Gods or beliefs is well worth a listen. ---------------Wallace's stuff is amateur-hour. He repeatedly disregards my challenges, indicating he does not operate at a scholarly level, but only at a popular level, as could be gleaned merely by noting the amount of effort he puts into playing psychological tricks just to get people to listen to him. Him and Turek are always prefacing their presentations with carefully calibrated videos that remind one of horror movie intros and tv documentary intros from the 2000s. They obviously don't think merely preaching the word will be sufficient, they obviously fear the Holy Spirit won't bless their efforts unless they imitate the world's ways of attracting attention...like a car salesman. "What I find interesting is the stories out there by former non believers who were either cynics or militantly anti-Christian or indeed of other faiths. -----------------What I find interesting is my own stories, like the stories of others, who were formerly conservative Trinitarian evangelical, but who have since give up the faith. "I would also listen to Rosario Butterfield’s account of her slow realisation of truth in the Bible." She was the professor of English and Queer theory at Syracuse University. She set out to write a paper on the false narrative in the Bible and was over a long time persuaded to convert to Christ through what she read in the scriptures as well as having discussions with other believers. Her journey is available on UTube as “ The secret thoughts of an unlikely convert “ -----------I'll listen to it the day you demonstrate that anything in the NT "applies to us today". Deal? Let me know how many years you'll need to wade through all the Christian in-house debates about theonomy, dispensationalism, cessationism and preterism, so I'll know when to start expecting you to show fulfillment of that challenge.

[@johnniejames9799]

What was RYAN needing to see to know that GOD exists? Did I miss that part? What would be evidence for GOD for him?

[@matthewwoodard3117]

Jesus wasn’t bound by any limitations of people that lived 2000 years ago. He could have provided lasting evidence that extended to our time today. Saying they weren’t capable of providing better evidence is just false if Jesus was god. Holding jesus to evidential standards today is completely reasonable.

[@Reapertango37__]

I think Matt Dillahunty wouldn’t stand a chance against Sean McDowell. Who wants to see this debate.

[@zhugh9556]

Sean is a nice guy but his arguments here are not particularly strong.

[@TimothyFish]

Matt Dillahunty never really debates. His answer for everything is "I'm not convinced." That adds nothing of value to the conversation.

[@tor9273]

Let’s have a calm respectful discussion about the existence of Santa Claus. You state your unhinged illogic and I’ll nod and pretend that it isn’t entirely ridiculous.