Is the Punishment of Hell Temporary or Eternal?

[@christopherbaldwin7875]

One of the key pillars of conditionalism is the nature of the human soul. Scripture clearly states that immortality comes via Christ. The belief that the human soul is naturally immortal come from Plato, not Jesus - not the apostles- not the Scripture

[@Sirach144]

Amen!!!!!

[@Mrm1985100]

Yes. Bingo. The whole house of cards crumbles...

[@ibperson7765]

The key pillars are: 1. The Bible says over and over and over that unsaved souls are “destroyed”, “will be no more”, “will be just as if they had never been”, “have no future”, “be as if they had never been”, “be suddenly destroyed”, “not have any eternal life”, “vanish like smoke”, “perish”, “be altogether destroyed”, “be like the snail that dissolves into slime”, In isolation it would be hard to argue that “eternal punishment” (mentioned once) is annihilation. But it’s not in isolation. We have a mountain of direct verses telling us exactly what happens. Because it is even harder to argue that “complete destruction” means eternal life of suffering, we are obliged to settle the apparent discrepancy that way. “Eternal punishment” can with some difficulty be seen as annihilation. “Complete destruction” cannot with any amount of effort be seen as eternal life. 2. There is no 2; the Bible speaks for itself. No one can fail to understand “completely destroyed”. And for those who pretend they can, “be as if they had never been” and “be no more” clarify.

[@ibperson7765]

@@Mrm1985100 please see my comment here

[@Arabian_Abomination]

“Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:26‬

[@infinityApologeticsClips]

Matthew 10:28 NKJV And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[@wadegray2069]

That sure sounds like "annihilation" to me.

[@infinityApologeticsClips]

@@wadegray2069 Exactly.

[@thisperson6655]

Able to

[@joshuanadeem8898]

Heb 10v29 - "How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profane the blood of the covenant that sanctified Him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" Matthew 12v31 - "therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven". Daniel 12v2, Matthew 25v46, Revelation 14v9-11, Revelation 20v10 etc etc... People forget that The LORD God is Holy, Holy, Holy!!! and therefore, He will righteously throw whoever doesn't believe in the LORD Jesus Christ into Hell where we will suffer forever and ever just like we deserve (Ask yourself what someone deserves if they reject Jesus' sacrafice...). Yes, He is Love and Mercy but He has revealed in the Bible that His Being doesn't contradict (His Mercy doesn't defeat His Holiness). Importantly, He has already demonstrated His unlimited Love/ Mercy for us in that whilst we still sinners, Jesus Christ died for us and then resurrected. Hellfire is forever and forever. How dare anyone try to mitigate the Holiness of YHWH. Also please think about the implications of the anti-biblical lie that Hell is temporary. Preach repentance/ faith in Christ alone whilst we're on earth. God bless any and all fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. To those who haven't, Believe in The LORD Jesus Christ/His gospel (not works) and you shall be saved by grace alone through faith alone. Ps. Under temp. hell view, I don't get why Jesus would warn us to be more afraid of the ceasing of one's consciousness in hell when it would be relatively (if not perfectly) painless to the possiblly greater suffering on earth. Not a real objection but a query.

[@thisperson6655]

@@joshuanadeem8898 why is there no end?

[@stewbeefdamastamind5719]

Read lamentations 3:31-33...... " FOR NO ONE IS CAST OFF BY THE LORD FOREVER, though he brings grief.HE WILL SHOW COMPASSION. so great is his unfalling love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone"....(and yes that's from the bible)..booyah..to u eternal hell believers!!!..I can quote more too

[@ibperson7765]

Good thank you. Please quote more if still willing

[@ttownsupreme2183]

If you are suggesting Ultimate Reconciliation I agree ect is directly against Gods nature

[@diamondlife-gi7hg]

@@ibperson7765 “But God would not take away a life; He would devise plans so that the one banished from Him does not remain banished.” 2 Sam. 14:14

[@donaldriedel1800]

Thank you so much. Could you please quote more from the Bible? God Bless You

[@johnhuggins1394]

Hell is forever,the fires never go out You cannot change or water down scripture,just because the thought of hell is nasty and not being in God's nature God doesn't send anyone to hell,but is a result of our rejection of a relationship with Him

[@1920s]

Death means life. Destruction means not destroyed. Vanish means not vanishing. Be no more means being around forever. Being ashes means being whole. Being consumed means absolutely not being consumed. Mortality means immortality. Essentially, the traditional view of what happens to the wicked is the exact opposite of what scripture literally says.

[@zoranvanzindell]

Where do you get this from?

[@1920s]

Zoran Van Zindell Those that hold to the traditional view of hell must redefine dozens of words, and force descriptions (chaff into a fire) of what happens to the wicked into a place that has no bearing in reality.

[@bob-zz2pd]

@@1920s Yep. And those who support annihilation barely have to change any words because words like eternal have been proven to mean other things beside forever. Just like the "eternal" fire of Sodom and Gomorrah. I can't believe people actually believe in eternal torment compared to annihilation. My question for you is what do you think about universalism? I feel like there are verses supporting that but the Bible can be very contradictory about hell.

[@zoranvanzindell]

@@1920s well thank you so much for a concrete answer, it certainly has been a education for me from you seem very learned and educated on most topics and words in the english language may good fortune and blessings Come to you.

[@zoranvanzindell]

@@bob-zz2pd swedenborg encouraged, univerlism, they have a whole channel dedicated to that called offtheleft eye, but once again it's good to discern information, in your own way a lot of people mix in truth with mixed in emotion's based on any teachings.

[@WaimakBibleChapel]

Wow! Brilliant 👍I had never heard that before best insight,overview,insight and explanation I have heard. I am TR only and definitely not a Calvinist yet I still enjoy listening to James White. Agreeing to disagree opens the door to still learn from each other. God Bless you brother😀

[@adamhorstman3398]

Have been considering conditionalism. Very thoughtful response, Dr White.

[@Mrm1985100]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4vTm6ZtadqEZtU

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Good one brother. I would recommend Edward Fudge on this issue, a lovely guy with a sweet spirit talking about a tough topic.

[@jeffallanday]

I am on the fence leaning toward conditionalism. My advice is don't make up your mind quickly on the issue. Spend a lot of time reading all the arguments from both sides. I agree whole heartily with James White that the Traditionalist side does not take conditionalists very seriously and they should. I often find they lump up all the positions and treat them as one position that is going against ECT. However, a large number of Conditionalists agree with many of the things ECT people are saying. For example the argument that Eternal punishment and judgement are under attack inside the church. Many want to completely remove Hell and conditionalists also see that as a problem.

[@HG-ic8ks]

Every time the word Hell is used in the Bible, it is a translation of one proper noun to a different proper noun. None of the original Greek or Hebrew words has any sort of connotation to some torture chamber where God keeps people alive forever. That is a Roman invention carried over from Greek mythology and philosophy. There will be God’s day of wrath and fury, but it will be much hotter than some pagan “Hell.”

[@tabasco7915]

After being exposed to all the issues & stances concerning the doctrine of Hell I am not sure where to stand but great answer Dr. White.

[@paulnicolas172]

Theres a lot of reasoning against ideas which stem from believing that a God of love who loves people more than they know even more than there parents do (i know there are exeptions interms of parents loving their children lol ) could throw them into hell to suffer in eternal torment to such a degree as likened to being in a laver pitt. I have read the old testament once and the new twice and have read many a forums for and against annihilationalism and many scriptures verses supporting and opposing it and can see both sides of the argument and in this case scripture is truly subject to interpretation which the bible quotes it isnt . But puting this aside , one argument of which i have many against eternal conscious torment is that it would seem that the devil would have won in the end if the vast majority will be going to hell (as it mentions in the bible that only a few will be saved ) - its like a battle between 2 tribes the side that has the most soldiers remaining after the battle wins right - so has God lost then if in the finality of things . Even in the bible it mentions there will be no more death or misery as the former things have passed away - how van that be when there is a realm where the majority of Gods creation are suffering for a finite number of sins forever without any chance of parole - and would the righteous be eternally happy knowing that some of the people they loved on earth were suffering in such torment - What sort of victory would that be and what sort of God would allow that. I wouldnt allow my worst enemy to suffer forever in such torment and misery . It also mentions in revelation that the righteous will walk on the ashes of the wicked - how can that be if they are suffering in torment in a lake of fire somewhere ? Paul mention the wages of sin is death - not conscious torment forever. If i had the power to end someones suffering even if i disliked them but let them suffer forever just because of my morals i would be classed as a psychopath and a sadistic tyrant - but not God?

[@paulpaul1802]

Good points Paul. Alot of people simply don’t want to acknowledge these facts. All throughout scripture especially old testament talks about wicked being as ashes. NO MORE. Yet the majority of pastors and churches today teach eternal torment as if it is a fact. I wouldn’t wish eternal torment on the worst of the worst and I am a flawed man capable of serious evil myself. God gets no glory out of tormenting or allowing torment to the huge majority of all of his creation for all of eternity.

[@scwienert]

I don’t see how your objection is answered in annihilation. By your argument, God loses because most of human life is annihilated... which goes contrary to Who He is as Creator.

[@paulnicolas172]

Well what I am saying is God hasn't been fully victorious in saving the whole of humanity if the devil has persuaded the vast majority of his creation to side on the devils side ie to stay unsaved ! Unless it wasnt gods purpose to save everyone or he is not powerful enough to defeat the devil to fully fulfil his purpose ! So it would seem the devil has been nore victorious to me in that respect !

[@paulnicolas172]

@@scwienert also either way if unsaved are annihilated or suffer in eternal torment both would go against who he is as a creator but if the vast majority of creation are suffering in hell then it wouldn't be much of a creation would it ? And it would be more merciful at least if he let the unsaved die assuming he is a loving god I mean it would he bad enough for them to miss out on heaven and then to torture them forever as well ! If I was all powerful and merciful and I wanted everyone to be saved I would find a way to save them no matter how long it took - surely even the most evil of people could be saved eventually - universalism would on fact be better but there is not much evidence of this in the bible even though there are a few verses that point to this e.g. at the end of revelation it mentions- there will be no more pain and suffering as the former things have passed away - if there was a hell surely that couldn't be correct ?

[@jonp3890]

@@scwienert Are you kidding me!? God only wins if the damned, that vast (VAST!) majority, are burning in hell forever? Do you realize how utterly insane that sounds? That doctrine IS NOT biblical, and if a great number of you people could put your childhood indoctrinations behind you and really study what He has actually said, you would come to understand that.

[@OC3707]

Anyone interested in this topic must read "The Fire that Consumes" by Edward Fudge. Probably the most thorough treatment.

[@jeffallanday]

Read it. Own it. I read all books from both sides. I also read Hell under fire. I also encourage everyone to listen to Dan Petersons testimony on why he change to Conditionalism.

[@pateunuchity884]

This was the most concise and digestible explanations on the subject I have heard explained. It is a position that is attractive yet untrue.

[@pateunuchity884]

@Rodrick Evans You probably already know. That is why you’re ready with your defense.

[@thisperson6655]

What do you believe?

[@ManlyServant]

@@pateunuchity884 untrue is all your opinion,all church father agree with literal hell and heaven,even scripture says this is eternal,eternal is Eternal,this is period of time that was forever and ever,and thats why Revelation says so,when gospel talk about hell,all of this is always Forever Fire with Suffering which is Conciuss Sicknes,i honestly think that Annihilation is worse because it gives the sinner REST from insulting the infinite being,We deserves to get destroyed eternally and being consumed eternally just as how People in heaven can consume Food eternally

[@Arabian_Abomination]

“Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:26‬

[@Arabian_Abomination]

@@ManlyServant this makes 0 sense. It is unjust for God to punish someone eternally and torment them especially since we believe in election

[@stevetucker5851]

I believe Annihilationism is biblical, and on top of that, I think it makes more philosophical sense than either eternal conscious torment or universal reconciliation. God is just but also merciful, so he wouldn’t subject someone to ETERNAL suffering, but he’s also not going to force everyone to love him, because then it wouldn’t be genuine love. Therefore, you’re left with Annihilationism. Merciful and not coercive.

[@ibperson7765]

Who decided “destruction” means eternal torment? The *fire* is eternal, but getting thrown into an eternal fire leads to destruction (apOleian) not surviving forever. “the wicked are no more…” (prov 10:25), “[t]he wicked are overthrown and are no more…” (prov 12:7). “the evil have no future; the lamp of the wicked will go out” (prov 24:20). The wicked are sometimes depicted as being “consumed” by fire (Heb 6:8, 10:7; Jude 7, cf. Isa 33:11) the wide gate “leads to destruction” and the narrow gate that “leads to life” (Matt. 7:13). “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt. 10:28). God alone is able to both “save and destroy” (Jam. 4:12). Peter teaches that “destruction” awaits false, greedy teachers (2 Pet. 2:3). And Paul teaches that the quest for riches can plunge people into “ruin and destruction” (1 Tim. 6:9). Moreover, all who are “enemies of the cross” have “destruction” as their final end (Phil. 3:18-19, cf. 1:28). If anyone “destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that person” (1 Cor. 3:17). “sudden destruction” will come upon the wicked (1 Thess. 5:3). Judgments is a day for “the destruction of the godless” (2 Pet. 3:7). “every tree…that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire” (Matt. 3:10) The wicked shall be so thoroughly destroyed that they shall not even be remembered (Ps. 9:6; 34:16). In the powerful words of a later author, the wicked “shall be as though they had never been” (Obed. 16, emphasis added). The wicked “will soon fade like the grass, and wither like the green herb” (Ps. 37:2). They “shall be cut off…and… *will be no more* “ (Ps. 37:9-10). While the righteous “abide forever” (37:27), “the wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away” (Ps. 37:20); they “vanish like water that runs away; like grass be trodden down and wither”; “like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun” (Ps. 58:7-8). And again, “…transgressors shall be altogether destroyed” (Ps. 37:38, cf. vs. 34). That’s not just “ichdu” (destroyed), but “nshmdu ichdu” (altogether destoryed). No speaker of Hebrew would fail fo follow that. Repeat after me: Altogether Destroyed. I could go on. Much taken from ReKnew site.

[@solideogloria3962]

Who said people stop sinning in hell?

[@TheBlueCream]

universal reconciliation makes more sense

[@Psawyer555]

@@solideogloria3962it just matters what the Bible says about the subject

[@kimmykimko]

Philosophy ..lol. Of whom? Of what? Man's wisdom? The same man who rejects God in their fallen humanity?

[@diamondlife-gi7hg]

“But God would not take away a life; He would devise plans so that the one banished from Him does not remain banished.” 2 Sam. 14:14

[@truthtransistorradio6716]

James White makes the claim that the dead don't stop sinning. However, Revelation 21 says there will be no more sin!

[@KentuckyBrad]

No more sin on the new earth

[@truthtransistorradio6716]

@KentuckyBrad That's what it would have to be. Personally, after 40 years of believing eternal conscious torment, I am now convinced of annihilation. The only book that seems to state anyone suffers forever is Revelation. A book full of literal.....strike that.....symbolic language. But from Genesis to Jude, annihilation of the lost is the stronger view! Yes, even with the words of Jesus Christ! I am convinced that the condition of Revelation 21 is everywhere. Not just on the new earth.

[@CarlosAlvarez-lc1xe]

This guy’s answer is very vague. I feel like he’s beating around the bush.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

It is very vague because he's very knowledgeable on the topic and obviously find a lot of scriptural support for conditional immortality. however the traditional view dies very very hard with most people. Another word it takes about 99% certainty before people will switch their views. If there was no bias involved and no tradition and no pressure to choose one view over another then all you would need would be more than 50% certainty on one view to make that your position. However we all grow up with eternal conscious torment as our default position. It's a bit like the sin we are born with, how to get rid of but with Christ and through his word we can get rid of both tradition and the penalty of sin which by the way is death.

[@MarkThomas-c7f]

I wonder if this guy will answer this question that I posted today. >> Do you believe that 11, 12, or 13-year-olds who die without Christ will spend an eternity in hell? - - After all, they reached the age of accountability. Nearly all of them, anyway. And you cannot deny that.

[@soulosxpiotov7280]

@@MarkThomas-c7f 11, 12, 13 year olds who die without Christ will go to the Lake of Fire. A 3 month old will not.

[@brilah9081]

It feels like you said so much but said nothing at the same time

[@rob2250]

That’s called hearing but not listening my friend

[@xintimidate]

@@rob2250 or its called him not really answering the question

[@TSammut0219]

That’s because that’s exactly what is was

[@sprayarm]

He didn’t answer the question at all

[@ibperson7765]

Did he answer you ask?? Let’s see: The question was ‘How do you deal with the Bible saying over and over, in forty different ways and with endless and emphatic repetition, that the unsaved will be destroyed? Since it says “completely destroyed” “suddenly destroyed” “altogether destroyed” “will be no more” “will be as if they never existed”.... why won’t you believe God?’ His answer: maybe they keep sinning.

[@MattRyniker]

I'm surprised so many people said this was helpful. He didn't really engage the scriptures at all and when he described the conditionalist view, he fumbled through a mangled version of what they believe.

[@Loislikes]

Yea, I actually am upset. I wished he would have brought up both positions and than tried to reconcile them together to come up with a solution. Some of what he said didn't even make sense, not sure if it was even biblical.

[@ericdishington428]

Yes. I wasn't expecting this from James. Disappointed. Turning it off early.

[@deanwall9291]

Never been challenged??? I challenge anyone to prove to me that the traditionalist view is biblical. The only way the traditionalist view works is if you change the definitions of biblical words. Death, destruction, destroy, perish don't mean what they say.

[@BenAboutYoutube]

This started so well and I am glad James admits the Conditionalist position is strong. But you miss the point in what the main issue is. Conditionalism says that it the saved are given immortality. It's not that the sinner simply ceases to exist, they are destroyed, they perish, they not recoeve eternal life, they die forever. Thay ids the second death.

[@ManlyServant]

where is he admit it? are you giving us false witness?,a sinner like you who didnt believe in eternal concius Torment and do Sin so Freely think that Hell is temporal for you? we are all deserves eternal concius torment,And jesus Saves us, annihilationist gives sinner Rest,They have to alive and death bodily and then gets tormented eternally and consumed eternally

[@BenAboutYoutube]

@@ManlyServant Yes I am a sinner but saved by my Saviour Jesus. If Hell is eternal torment and I am wrong fine, I am still saved by my faith in what Christ did for me at the cross, his physical ressurection and assension. I am not saved by getting all doctrine right, I am only saved by the shed blood of Jesus. That goes for you as well. If you trust in Christ, you are my brother and I love you. I rejoice in your salvation! When I got saved 20 years ago I believed in Eternal suffering in Hell. However in recent years, t is the scripture that has convinced me in recent years that He'll though real is not eternal. Texts like the one below. Jesus says clearly that suffering in Hell is not eternal. Just look at what it says, and take it at face value, without reading into it something else. Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." If you take a few days to really look at the Biblical arguments Conditionalists make I think you will be surprised how Biblical it is. Even if you don't agree with it, I honestly believe you would stop thinking we are heretics. Check out www.rethinkinghell.com Bless you brother in Christ.

[@BenAboutYoutube]

@@ManlyServant oh sorry I didn't answer you initial question. He talks about right in the first 3 minutes he said "He's right (refering to the conditionalist). And 99% of the ministers I deal with have never engaged with the arguments of conditionalists. The vast majority of people believe what they believe through tradition, it's what they absorbed through their church culture and have never been challenged on it.". And then "Conditionalist os one of the hardest things to deal with from a Biblical perspectives." I hope that helps

[@ohyeah5172]

the problem of that is u love your sin so much that's why u like to be eternal destroyed to avoid eternal punishment forever, u want to gamble your soul in that view? so do it so that u will know it in the after life

[@BenAboutYoutube]

@@ohyeah5172 It's easy to make a broad brush stroke of a person from afar without meeting them or engaging with their arguments. God has the right to deal with my sin as he sees fit. If I am tortured forever He will have done me no wrong. I am a sinner in need of deep forgiveness every day. And I am forever grateful for the gospel. I was never personally offended by the idea of ETC. My problem is that I think it is not taught in scripture. I may be wrong. But we are not saved by being wrong but by repenting and trusting in Christ. I pray you know the grace of our Father. In love your brother

[@jaunkoekemoer9661]

The wages of sin is death. Not everlasting punishment. Although, death itself is everlasting.

[@kimmykimko]

You don't understand death.

[@t-o-4005]

@@kimmykimko Did Jesus’ death pay the price of sin in our place? Wouldn’t He have to burn forever? That is, if death means eternal burning.

[@Loislikes]

It says those not written in the book of life would receive the "2nd Death". If you are continuing to exist in some form, how are you experiencing death. Death is death is it not? Unless God has a completely different definition of destruction and death than we do. I don't understand why God wouldn't just say eternal punishment instead of 2nd death.

[@magictransistorradio4933]

I lean towards annihilation myself. The problem I have with James answer here is that he says the lost sin and suffer forever. But Revelation 21 says there will be no more sin and suffering.

[@arcguardian]

On earth, Revelation isn't referring to hell. It also says God will wipe away every tear. You'd have to make a case that God will comfort the wicked.

[@magictransistorradio4933]

@@arcguardian I would have to make a case that God will comfort the wicked? No, because they will be dead.

[@Loislikes]

@@arcguardian Those who are in Heaven can see those in Hell I believe. Why would we be in Heaven for all eternity and be without sadness if there are billions of people suffering in torment? So many holes, so many questions.

[@watcherwlc53]

so if, as he argues from about 9:00 on, IF one can continue sinning after death, why could one not repent after death? What is it about being alive in the body which offers the opportunity for repentance? If sinning can somehow continue after the body? If you can still be punished for new sins after death... why is repentance not still available? None of it makes sense really. That's why conditionalism makes more sense. You do stop sinning and stop with the option for repentance etc as it is over entirely if you die.

[@ibperson7765]

It’s unfortunate that James uses his own logic and mind to decide, instead of relying on scriptures The Bible says over and over and over that unsaved souls are “destroyed”, “will be no more”, “will be just as if they had never been”, “have no future”, “be as if they had never been”, “be suddenly destroyed”, “not have any eternal life”, “vanish like smoke”, “be altogether destroyed”, “be like the snail that dissolves into slime”, And in greek the adjective can refer to the consequence. Eg “eternal judgment” on judgment day does not mean God takes forever to decide. The consequence is eternal. Same for eternal punishment, the consequence is losing eternal life. In isolation it would be hard to argue that “eternal punishment” (mentioned once) is annihilation. But it’s not in isolation. We have a mountain of direct verses telling us exactly what happens. Because it is even harder to argue that “complete destruction” means eternal life of suffering, we are obliged to settle the apparent discrepancy that way. “Eternal punishment” can with some difficulty be seen as annihilation. “Complete destruction” cannot with any amount of effort be seen as eternal life. 2. There is no 2; the Bible speaks for itself. No one can fail to understand “completely destroyed”. And for those who pretend they can, “be as if they had never been” and “be no more” clarify. ---- “the wicked are no more…” (prov 10:25), “[t]he wicked are overthrown and are no more…” (prov 12:7). “the evil have no future; the lamp of the wicked will go out” (prov 24:20). The wicked are sometimes depicted as being “consumed” by fire (Heb 6:8, 10:7; Jude 7, cf. Isa 33:11) the wide gate “leads to destruction” and the narrow gate that “leads to life” (Matt. 7:13). “fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt. 10:28). God alone is able to both “save and destroy” (Jam. 4:12). Peter teaches that “destruction” awaits false, greedy teachers (2 Pet. 2:3). And Paul teaches that the quest for riches can plunge people into “ruin and destruction” (1 Tim. 6:9). Moreover, all who are “enemies of the cross” have “destruction” as their final end (Phil. 3:18-19, cf. 1:28). If anyone “destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that person” (1 Cor. 3:17). “sudden destruction” will come upon the wicked (1 Thess. 5:3). Judgments is a day for “the destruction of the godless” (2 Pet. 3:7). “every tree…that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire” (Matt. 3:10) The wicked shall be so thoroughly destroyed that they shall not even be remembered (Ps. 9:6; 34:16). In the powerful words of a later author, the wicked “shall be as though they had never been” (Obed. 16, emphasis added). The wicked “will soon fade like the grass, and wither like the green herb” (Ps. 37:2). They “shall be cut off…and… *will be no more* “ (Ps. 37:9-10). While the righteous “abide forever” (37:27), “the wicked perish…like smoke they vanish away” (Ps. 37:20); they “vanish like water that runs away; like grass be trodden down and wither”; “like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun” (Ps. 58:7-8). And again, “…transgressors shall be altogether destroyed” (Ps. 37:38, cf. vs. 34). That’s not just “ichdu” (destroyed), but “nshmdu ichdu” (altogether destoryed). No speaker of Hebrew would fail fo follow that. Repeat after me: Altogether Destroyed.

[@ibperson7765]

@Ruus Hardy Annihilation is after punishment in Hell

[@ParkerRRea]

Very interesting reflection on the theological issues surrounding what eternal punishment is and whether ECT is a defensible position, but he had very little interaction with the actual question raised regarding the parallel between Is. 34:9-10 and Rev. 14:10-11 and its support for Conditionalism.

[@Aurora666_yt]

What's the point of eternal concious torment? What lesson is learned? What chance is there of redemption? How does eternally punishing mortal fallible beings for temporary faults not make the punisher worse than the punished?

[@BobWilson-j3m]

The thing that troubles me is the seeming lack of concern that those who believe in unending torment have for those who are facing it.

[@FickNury-h3o]

You don't know our hearts.

[@DaleGriggsMinistry]

You stated at the beginning, "tradition" and what people have been taught. That's a huge problem in many of our churches. As a pastor (and I hold a weekly Q&A) I've had many discussions on several "misconceptions" that people have been taught; this subject is one of them. On this subject there are several beliefs about hell that I hear. The subject you discussed in the video is one that bothers me that people believe. Then there are "sayings" like, "Hell is just a separation from God." Another odd belief is that Satan will be in control of hell. I could go on and on with all of these false beliefs which I know you are aware of. You are right, we need to be teaching these things as much as we teach against other false doctrines.

[@michaelrobertguertin]

Dale Griggs Preach it bro! 👍☝️

[@annemarinelli7303]

What about people who claim to have died and gone to Hell…a friend told me he experienced hell when he died and was brought back

[@7bag7]

@@annemarinelli7303What about the many more who’ve died and been shown reincarnation? Or the atheist who dies and goes to heaven? Or the thousands of other ndes that contridict your preconceived notions??

[@benhauber1979]

Dude, such weak sauce. Any conditionalist theologian could easily shred your arguments. And they could do it just using scripture. You just said they have great arguments, and you clearly don't, yet you decide you're right and they're wrong.

[@Mrm1985100]

@Alias Alias Read "the Fire that Consumes" by Edward Fudge

[@Spookyjordan]

@Alias Alias well his one argument was the idea that the sinner would continue to sin after death and that at the judgement they would continue to curse God forever. That is not necessarily biblical but what is is the fact that EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. That tells me that on judgement day even those who hate God will profess His greatness and His justice will be praised even by those He’s punishing. I believe they will go to hell proclaiming God’s greatness. If that’s the case, then James’ theory of continual aggression towards God falls flat. I think the texts support my argument more than his.

[@conkpit]

This is why I believe the Bible wasn't written by men alone. The concept of Hell is so frightening that no human would come up with it... especially trying to justify a loving and passionate God being compatible with eternal punishment. God's love and the idea of eternal punishment in Hell is above our understanding. God Himself says, My ways are higher than yours and My thoughts are higher than your thoughts.

[@tomm6167]

This post pertains to the last 2 minutes of this video, which discuss the Greek word _aionios_ and Matthew 25:41,46: There are three nontraditional ways to interpret _aionios_ ("eternal") in Matthew 25:46: ------------------ *Interpretation #1 -- **_aionios_** is temporary for both sheep and goats* (1) _Aionios_ almost always means "eonios" or "of an eon" or "of an age," just like it sounds. I could give many examples. So in this particular verse, Jesus was only promising to the righteous "sheep" life in the age to come -- not eternal life. This isn't the first understatement in the Bible. For example, the phrase "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" understates the number of people God is God of. (2) This interpretation doesn't threaten eternal life for believers, because many other verses, which don't use _aionios,_ do promise eternal life: (a) verses that include "immortality," "imperishable," "unfading" or "incorruptible" (1 Cor. 9:25, 15:42, 51-55, 2 Tim. 1:10, 1 Pet. 1:3-4,23, 5:4) (b) Isa. 25:8, Hos. 13:14, Luke 20:36, John 6:37, Rom. 8:19-21, 38-39, 1 Cor. 15:26, Rev. 20:14, 21:4. (3) In Matt. 25:46, the _aionios_ punishment for the unrighteous "goats" is also "of an age" (Point 1). (4) Therefore, the traditional argument is invalid. Life is eternal for the righteous "sheep" (Points 2a & 2b), while the Matt. 25:46 punishment for the unrighteous "goats" is temporary (Point 3). ------------------ *Interpretation #2 -- **_aionios_** is endless for sheep but temporary for goats* An adjective *can* means two different things in the same sentence. Examples: *_aionios_** in Rom. **16:25**-26,* Habakkuk 3:6, "A huge man is climbing a huge mountain." "Jesus is referring to two completely different things -- life and punishment. Eternal life is divine life that comes from God. That divine life never ends. Eternal punishment is divine punishment from His hand. The duration of that divine punishment may certainly be temporary, lasting only until it accomplishes its purpose." -- George Sarris, _Heaven's Doors,_ 2017, pg. 140 "Augustine raised the argument that since _aionios_ in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of _aionios_ is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when _aionios_ referred to the duration of Jonah's entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, _aionios_ referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the [time] preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon's temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether." -- Gerry Beauchemin, _Hope Beyond Hell,_ 2010, pg. 26 In other words, _aionios_ doesn't make God eternal, but God makes _aionios_ eternal. ------------------ *Interpretation #3 -- **_aionios_** is indeterminate for both sheep and goats* Jesus meant in Matt. 25:46 what he said in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." There, "eternal" _(aionios)_ means "spiritual" or "divine," and has no specified time frame. ------------------ *Conclusion:* It's extremely likely that one of these three nontraditional interpretations is correct, especially considering the long list of scriptures teaching, implying or strongly suggesting ultimate restoration: John 12:32, 17:2, combination of (John 3:35, 6:37), Rom. 5:18-19, 8:19-21, 11:32,36, 14:11 , *1 Cor. 15:22,28* , Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2, combination of (Rev. 22:1,14-15,17a,17c), Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3.

[@TSammut0219]

Notice that every single person one will debate that believes in eternal conscience torment, will ALWAYS say I will annihilationism is true. That’s because the Holy Spirit is telling your soul what you believe is wrong

[@Mrm1985100]

Yup... they can't escape from the truth...

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Yes it does seem strange that people filled with the Holy spirit seem to wish something unbiblical were true. Not sure that occurs on any other topic does it?

[@TSammut0219]

@@michaelnewzealand1888 exactly

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

"The vast majority of NT scholars hold...... to conditionalism" according to James White at 4:54. Interesting comment. I didn't know that. Makes you think.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

If NT scholars mainly hold to conditionism, and most pastors who I assume only study this topic for a few hours in seminary believe in ECT, is it any wonder we the flock are still holding on to medieval beliefs. Something is amiss.

[@Kaddywompous]

It is, after all, the plain reading of the text.

[@Matthew-307]

Philippians 2:9-11 “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Isaiah 45:23 “I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.” These verses refute the claim that sinners who die without being forgiven will perpetually remain in a state of sinning.

[@Loislikes]

That doesn't even make sense for him to say. Your flesh is what causes you to sin, not your spirit, as its already unregenerated. Can someone commit adultery in hell? How does that work?

[@Matthew-307]

@@Loislikes Apokatastasis

[@joeydoherty368]

James suggests that your hatred of God is what creates hell for you. Well James, hell is the only reason I would hate God in the first place, so that premise really doesn’t make any sense.

[@TheBlueCream]

torturing folks forever in fire seems really cruel

[@joeydoherty368]

@@TheBlueCream Yeah I can’t imagine why anyone would hate someone who does that.

[@bradstrickland9956]

I believe scripture says that only those in Christ are given eternal life

[@7bag7]

Who did Christ die for?

[@TyehimbaJahsi]

Why does Dr. White assume that God stops dealing with the wicked after death? He assumes that "the restraints have been removed" and therefore the sinner "continues to sin". The Bible teaches no such thing.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

By assuming that he can justify ongoing punishing, but it defies logic to allow that to continue, since the very sin that God hates he then perpetuates by allowing the sinners to remain sinning. If they don't continue sinning, why continue the torture? Either way there is a problem.

[@Loislikes]

@@michaelnewzealand1888 It is actually funny. Because what if you are a mass adulterer. How can you commit adultery in hell? Maybe I don't understand what he means by "continuing to sin" after death.

[@jasonegeland1446]

Since hell is a translation error anyway and means the grave and DEATH itself is the last thing God is going to destroy, then NO, "hell" doesn't go on infinitely.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Yes modern versions only use the word about 11 or 12 times compared to 54 I think in the King James Version.

[@7bag7]

@@michaelnewzealand188811 or 12 is still 11 or 12 too many times!

[@JTW3D]

A lot of words but not much is said. Basically his conclusion is: God didn't deal with sin, He just moved the sin to another place. That doesn't make sense. It means there will always be a place where sin rules, there will always be people cursing God. As he admitted himself, conditionalists have good points and arguments. They have much more and much better arguments than the eternal torment believers have. So why do you not change your opinion regarding this subject?

[@elizabethbanks6432]

It could be because of the condition of his heart. He may be like the older brother in the story of the prodigal son, where he feels like he’s dedicated so much time into his ECT doctrine that anyone not suffering makes him angry, if that makes sense. I may be wrong

[@commoncentsflips4030]

I don't feel like the question was answered. Dr. White just offered one possible (although not necessarily biblical) reason why he believes the wicked will be tormented forever - they will continue to sin. If that is the case, it seems that the only way God will actually be ultimately victorious over sin would be to eventually annihilate the wicked.

[@IsaacNussbaum]

If God intends eternal conscious torment shouldn't that be in the Scriptures plainly and often? But the O.T. does not mention it. And it is but vaguely hinted at in a half-dozen N.T. verses. Why is that?

[@budpalerson]

Is there a scripture that states or implies that the human soul is inherently eternal?

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Not at all which is why you haven't heard of it in fact the Bible says the humans are mortal. Greek philosophers like Plato and Aristotle proposed the immortal soul concept.. Or at least promoted it possibly coming from earlier Egyptian or other cultures.

[@The_CrackedPot_Christian]

Is there a scripture that implies it is temporal?

[@IsaacNussbaum]

@@The_CrackedPot_Christian Yes. Genesis 2: 7 which says, in a nutshell: body + breath of life = living soul body - breath of life = dead soul

[@wutsit2yuhhuh246]

The devil's first lie "for you certainly shall not die." That's why Adam and Eve were kicked from the garden and kept away from the tree of life. If they had also eaten from that tree they would have been in a fallen state forever. These are my thoughts

[@StringPlunker]

Well that was a complete waste of 15 minutes

[@BobThebuilder-o1e]

I’ve recently been studying this issue and my problem with his answer is just as he asserts that the conditionalist wants to add their desire to the text he too is adding his opinion. He can’t say clearly that somehow God would be wronged if he destroyed disbelievers completely, only God can make that determination.

[@timclark2925]

"If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." Matthew 5:29-30........Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”" Sounds eternal to me.....I understand why people don't like the doctrine but there are all kinds of things in the Bible that I might not like but doesn't make them untrue.

[@MrMan-jf8yi]

If the eternal state is not a timed state, as time was created, then how can anybody/thing be annihilated at some point in it, since points reflect time? Either they are annihilated before the eternal state, in which some will not undergo punishment, or they suffer eternally.

[@kylebraegger4047]

Or the Wages of Sin is death, like it literally says. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that Human beings will write in agony forever.

[@MrMan-jf8yi]

@@kylebraegger4047 Matthew 25:46. Now of the punishment is not forever then neither is the life. The same word is used for both. God bless

[@kylebraegger4047]

@@MrMan-jf8yi The same word that has two different meanings. The wages of Sin is death. The punishment does not say Eternal Life for the Wicked in Flames, does it? No. It says repeat throughout the Bible that they DIE.

[@MrMan-jf8yi]

@@kylebraegger4047 This is a clear example of eisegesis.

[@kylebraegger4047]

@@MrMan-jf8yi Or your God lied. If the Wages of Sin is Death, then it isn't eternal torment. If it is eternal torment, then Satan never lied and God did lie.

[@Arabian_Abomination]

“Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:26‬

[@jaredcleevy6667]

Eternal torture would also mean that evil and the devil are not destroyed

[@AMessengerofTruth]

Exactly! ECT inherently teaches that sin will always exist. Traditionalists like John Macarthur affirm the biological immortality of the unsaved at the resurrection. Its so confusing to me how so many biblical thinkers genuinely believe that the wicked will receive the gift of eternal life(eternal life in hell that is).

[@kimmykimko]

Not at all. If they are eternally seperated from us.

[@7bag7]

@@kimmykimkoThat makes zero sense.

[@AllentheBeloved]

yes they are, continually, sin is dealt with in a finality that lasts forever

[@7bag7]

@@AllentheBeloved That makes no sense. That’s sustaining evil not destroying it.

[@tomm6167]

Nobody in hell will stay in the state of rebellion: "Turn to me and be *saved* , all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall *swear allegiance* . Only in the Lord, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him. In the Lord *all* the offspring of Israel shall be *justified* and shall *glory."* (Isaiah 45:22-25, ESV)

[@franklinhealey5880]

Never mentioned one Bible verse until your assistant brought up Matthew 25:46, the only verse in the Bible that says "eternal punishment". The Greek translation of "Kolasin Aionion" can be debated. It seems that God would've told us in more than one verse if it was as serious as eternal punishment. The Bible repeats many things over and over that are less important.

[@tomm6167]

A game-changing quote: "Philo, who was contemporary with Christ, generally used _aidon_ to denote endless, and always used _aionion_ to describe temporary duration. Dr. Mangey, in his edition of _Philo_ says he never used _aionion_ for interminable duration. He uses the exact phraseology of Matthew, xxv: 46, precisely as Christ used it. *'It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment **_(kolasis aionios)_** from such as are more powerful.'* Here we have the exact terms employed by our Lord, to show that _aionion_ did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ." -- J. W. Hanson, _Bible Threatenings Explained,_ 1888, pgs. 123-124 Philo (c. 20 BC - c. 50 AD) was a prominent Jewish philosopher who lived in nearby Alexandria, Egypt.

[@Kaddywompous]

If people will just keep sinning indefinitely then they are defective creations and SHOULD be destroyed. What would be the point of keeping them around?

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

None whatsoever. A bit like keeping a noisy alarm clock that never stops beeping, just so you can keep being annoyed at the alarm clock. Smash it up and get rid of it.

[@thomasremmers8250]

But what is the punishment according to the law,. The debate has never been about eternal but rather what is the punishment. Because the death penalty, imprisonment and torture are all types of punishment.

[@Loislikes]

Torture actually is not a form of "Just" punishment. Which is why we don't torture criminals endlessly if they commit a crime. This actually gets to the point of, "is our Justice and Love on Earth so different than God's?" Torture and treating inmates in jails badly is actually inhumane and cruelty. Lot's to think about, but I won't turn from God because I don't understand it all.

[@craigmayberry1147]

The cool thing is that all the problems, emotional, theological, etc automatically vanish when we realise that sin has nothing to do with behavior, conduct or actuons; it has everything to do with nature and identity. We dont “commit sin” we “are sin”

[@ibperson7765]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/j5-VpneAityDjc0

[@dragonwing2220]

If you "are sin," - then God created you "as sin." God created you "as sin" and then He wants to punish you for being a sinner? Sounds like a psychopath.

[@craigmayberry1147]

@@dragonwing2220 Would a psychopath provide the one and only escape from being condemned as a sinner? Whether one wants to accept it or not, one has to admit that it is a kind offer

[@dragonwing2220]

@@craigmayberry1147 I disagree, Craig. A psychopath ma not provide this "one and only escape" - but a total control freak would which is what God is in addition to being a psychopath. ; ) If I am correct - God judges human beings not by human standards (where someone who steals a piece of bread because they are starving is not punished the same as a guy who murders or rapes someone) but by God comparing us to himself - a supposedly perfect being. And since we were not made perfect and can't match God's perfection, he gets to punish a bread stealer and a murderer and a rapist with the same eternal torture? Something is wrong in this equation.

[@ibperson7765]

@@dragonwing2220 Actually He has a redemptive plan to destroy some that are needed for the process, and to bring some to purified holy presence with Him. Obviously if you think humans are temporary then God and this messy place won’t seem fair.

[@tommywarren4633]

Why do people keep on with this hell business when there is no hell in the true Hebrew or Greek scriptures from Genesis to revelation?!!!!!!!!?

[@robharris7696]

Dr Ross gave a great lecture on this over 30 years ago. Hell is eternal cuz we are eternal. Those in hell will continue to sin and rebel, with a desire to inflict evil on each other. It's not just punishment, it is a restraint; to keep hell from becoming worse than it will be. Those who end up in hell, are out for themselves that's why they're there.

[@SomethingStacy]

That's interesting. The idea of hell presented in this video seems so much less severe than final judgment and destruction of the wicked.

[@diamondlife-gi7hg]

. “This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our savior; Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV)

[@tomm6167]

There are many clues in the parable* of Lazarus and the Rich Man that, instead of contrasting the saved vs. unsaved, it's contrasting the treatment of Jews vs. Gentiles in the gospel age^, when the tables would be turned**: 1. Rich Man -- is never directly accused of a sin (only of being wealthy)^^ 2. Lazarus -- is never described as righteous (only of being a beggar)* * * 3. Purple -- indicates royalty (chosenness) 4. Fine linen -- was for Jewish priests (Exodus 28:39) 5. Abraham -- why is he in this parable at all? Because it specifically concerns Judaism. 6. Father Abraham -- described as "Father" 7. Flame -- the flame is singular -- not plural -- strongly suggesting this isn't about hell 8. Five Brothers -- The 5 FULL-blooded brothers of Judah were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar & Zebulun (Gen. 35:23) 9. Moses & Prophets -- The Jewish people had Moses and the prophets 10. Not Convinced by One Rising from the Dead -- a prophecy of Christ's pending resurrection, which his Jewish audience would become very familiar with but would not heed (for the most part) * It follows the parables of the Lost Sheep, the Lost Coin, the Prodigal Son and the Unjust Steward, strongly suggesting that it, too, is a parable. So does one drop of water being able to help in this situation. ^ In the gospel age, Israel is partially hardened by God (Rom. 11:25), while Gentiles are included in the church. ** This doesn't _excuse_ centuries of antisemitism, right up to the present time. ^^ The Rich Man's material wealth represents his belonging to the chosen people, and having the written revelation of God (Hebrew scriptures). * * * "Lazarus" is arguably another name for "Eliezer," Abraham's Gentile servant (Gen. 15:2). Here, Lazarus represents Gentiles who were beggars in the sense that they were lacking knowledge of God, due to God's chosen people not having shared it with them. Consider the unjust steward in the preceding parable, and Jesus overturning tables at the temple.

[@deanwall9291]

You make some very good points. Thanks

[@tomm6167]

@@deanwall9291 A belated You're welcome!

[@wwatkin21]

What I’m not understanding about this is the part where he refers to the sinners continuous rebellion after death. If you’re dead how can you continue to rebel? You’re dead! You can’t do anything. You’re dead! A believe dies today and is buried. Guess what, they can’t sin anymore because they are dead, you have to animate in order to behave or even think. If blood is not flowing to your brain you cannot commit an act nor can you commit a thought crime you’re brain is off. So we die. God resurrects EVERYONE! And then the final judgment comes, based on your deeds if you are not covered by the blood of Christ. During that judgement ALL men are ALIVE! That’s what resurrection implies. So then God determines whether or not you were covered by the blood of his son. If you are, the gift is eternal life. If you are not you’re punishment is death. The opposite of the gift. If you are suspended in torment you are not dead because you still consciously experience, therefore you have secured a gift that was not promised to you, that gift was reserved for the faithful. Though the gift is not pleasant you still received it. In order to be dead you must be as you were before you were born, if you are not as you were before you were born then you are not dead you are indeed still alive. Adam and Eve were told they would DIE! Now if Gods definition of death is eternal conscious torment I think that information would’ve have been conveyed clearly before eating the fruit. If not what you’re saying is God is not of good character because he forgot to mention what death entails. But God saw if for to simply use the word DIE.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Yes I agree, in his view being dead does nothing to stop sin, it keeps going on and on. So God allowing people to die and get rid of sin does no such thing in this view, it just transfers it to another place. Strange.

[@kimmykimko]

You don't understand what death is. If Christ is the way, the Truth, the LIFE, then death is being apart from Christ Jesus.

[@stephendavis5325]

One must also vonsider the nature of " punishment". The scripture says the wicked will receive according to what they did in the body. In other words, there is a consequence for sin, and scripture tells us it is DEATH. NOT eternal life in the tortures of hellfire.

[@leiapeison]

I don’t know how someone could condemn places like Auschwitz’s but say hell is moral.

[@DutchGigaChad]

depends on your concepts of hell. A temporal subjective hell is not immoral

[@EmWarEl]

So God never has justice, and never defeats evil with finality? He just has to keep punishing and punishing a sin-producing entity that never stops? Show me that in the Bible.

[@kimmykimko]

Who says that His justice doesn't require eternal punishment? You want eternal life though, right? Isn't that hypocrisy?

[@tomm6167]

There are three nontraditional ways to interpret _aionion_ in Matthew 25:46: ------------------ *Interpretation #1 -- **_aionion_** is temporary for both sheep and goats* (1) _Aionion_ almost always means "eonion" or "of an eon" or "of an age," just like it sounds. I could give many examples. So in this particular verse, Jesus was only promising to the righteous "sheep" life in the age to come -- not eternal life. This isn't the first understatement in the Bible. For example, the phrase "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" understates the number of people God is God of. (2) This interpretation doesn't threaten eternal life for believers, because many other verses, which don't use _aionion,_ do promise eternal life: (a) verses that include "immortality," "imperishable," "unfading" or "incorruptible" (1 Cor. 9:25, 15:42, 51-55, 2 Tim. 1:10, 1 Pet. 1:3-4,23, 5:4) (b) Isa. 25:8, Hos. 13:14, Luke 20:36, John 6:37, Rom. 8:19-21, 38-39, 1 Cor. 15:26, Rev. 20:14, 21:4. (3) In Matt. 25:46, the _aionion_ punishment for the unrighteous "goats" is also "of an age" (Point 1). (4) Therefore, the traditional argument is invalid. Life is eternal for the righteous "sheep" (Points 2a & 2b), while the Matt. 25:46 punishment for the unrighteous "goats" is temporary (Point 3). ------------------ *Interpretation #2 -- **_aionion_** is endless for sheep but temporary for goats* An adjective *can* means two different things in the same sentence. Examples: *_aionion_** in Rom. **16:25**-26,* Habakkuk 3:6, "A huge man is climbing a huge mountain." "Jesus is referring to two completely different things -- life and punishment. Eternal life is divine life that comes from God. That divine life never ends. Eternal punishment is divine punishment from His hand. The duration of that divine punishment may certainly be temporary, lasting only until it accomplishes its purpose." -- George Sarris, _Heaven's Doors,_ 2017, pg. 140 "Augustine raised the argument that since _aionios_ in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of _aionios_ is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when _aionios_ referred to the duration of Jonah's entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, _aionios_ referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the [time] preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon's temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether." -- Gerry Beauchemin, _Hope Beyond Hell,_ 2010, pg. 26 In other words, _aionion_ doesn't make God eternal, but God makes _aionion_ eternal. ------------------ *Interpretation #3 -- **_aionion_** is indeterminate for both sheep and goats* Jesus meant in Matt. 25:46 what he said in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." There, "eternal" _(aionion)_ means "spiritual" or "divine," and has no specified time frame. ------------------ *Conclusion:* It's extremely likely that one of these three interpretations is correct, especially considering the scriptures & quotes in my two replies.

[@tomm6167]

Some verses which assert, imply or strongly suggest eventual universal salvation: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive ... God [will] be all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22,28) "As one trespass [Adam's] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness [Jesus'] leads to justification and life for all men." (Rom. 5:18) "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope [certainty] that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God" (Rom. 8:20-21) "God has committed all to disobedience that he might have mercy on all ... From him and through him and to him are all things." (Rom. 11:32,36) "...every knee shall bow to me [God], and every tongue shall confess to God." (Rom. 14:11) " ... at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:10-11) "And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (John 12:32) "And every creature which is in heaven and on earth and under the earth I heard saying, 'Blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb forever.'" (Rev. 5:13) "O you who hear prayer, to you shall all flesh come. When iniquities prevail against me, you atone for our transgressions." (Psalm 65:2-3) "All your works shall give thanks to you, O Lord." (Psalm 145:10a) "I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would grow faint before me, and the breath of life that I made." (Isa. 57:16) "The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end." (Lam. 3:22) Also see John 1:29, 4:42, 17:2, combination of (John 3:35, 6:37), Rom. 5:19-20, Eph. 1:10, Phil. 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2, combination of (Rev. 22:1,14,17a,17c), Psalm 22:27,29, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, Lam. 3:31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3, The Total Victory of Christ videos.

[@tomm6167]

Some quotes from leading early church fathers: "Christ saves all men. Some he converts by penalties, others who follow Him of their own will ... that every knee may be bent to Him, of those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth" [Isa. 45:22-23, Rev. 5:13] -- *Clement of Alexandria,* _Commentary on 1 John_ "When death shall no longer exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then, verily, God will be All in all" [1 Cor. 15:28,55] -- *Origen,* _De Principiis 3:6.3_ "What else does 'until the times of universal restoration' signify to us, if not the aeon to come, in which all beings must receive their perfect restoration?" [Acts 3:21] -- *Eusebius,* leading historian of the early church, _Contra Marcellum __2:4:11_ "A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one." [Col. 1:15-20] -- *Gregory Nazianzus,* _Oration 42_ "Christ captured over again the souls captured by the devil, for that He promised in saying, 'I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto Me.'" [John 12:32, 1 Peter 3:19-20, 4:6, Psalm 68:18, Eph. 4:8-10, and maybe Matt. 12:29] -- *Athanasius,* _Expositions on the Psalms, 68.18_ "The peace [coming] from the Lord is coextensive with all time [eternity]. For all things shall be subject to him, and all things shall acknowledge his empire; and when God shall be all in all, those who now excite discords by revolts, having been quite pacified, [all things] shall praise God in peaceful concord." [Psalm 145:10a, 1 Cor. 15:28, Rev. 5:13] -- *Basil,* _Commentary on Isaiah 9:6_ "So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive." [Luke 19:10, 1 Cor. 15:22] -- *Ambrose,* _Exposition on the Gospel of Luke 15.3_ "For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual, ... but they are to be tormented for a certain brief period, according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness, having no end, awaits them; ... the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave crimes are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed them. The resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing, not only to the good, but also to the evil." [Isa. 57:16], *Diodore,* _De Oecon_ "Some among the wise and learned … have alluded to this in an enigmatic way, by adducing that God is not only just, but also merciful, and that it becomes the One who judges with justice to have sinners suffer in a measure that is proportional to their sins and then make them worthy of blessedness." -- *Theodore,* _Liber Scholiorum, 2:63_ "'All the kings of the earth shall adore him.' Some, indeed, in the present life willingly, but all the rest after the Resurrection; for not yet do we see all things subject to him, but then every knee shall bow to him." [The "kings of the earth" are rebellious unbelievers in Rev. 6:15, 17:2,18, 18:3,9, 19:19,21 ... but check out what happens in Rev. 21:24-27!] -- *Theodoret,* _On Psalm 72:11_ "Death shall come as a visitor to the impious; it will not be perpetual; it will not annihilate them; but will prolong its visit, till the impiety which is in them shall be consumed." [Matt. 5:26] -- *Jerome,* _On Micah 5:8_ "After the complete abolition of sin, praise shall be sung to God; which praise contain (implies) our being incapable of turning to sin ... when every created being shall be harmonized into one choir ... and when, like a cymbal, the reasonable creation, and that which is now severed by sin ... shall pour forth a pleasing strain, due to mutual harmony. Then comes the praise of every spirit for ever abounding with increase unto eternity." [Psalm 150] -- *Gregory of Nyssa,* _On Psalms, Tract 1, ch. 9_ Other church fathers who believed in eventual universal salvation include *Asterius, Bardaisan, Cyril of Alexandria, Didymus the Blind, Dionysius, Ephrem the Syrian, Gennadius, Hilary, John Cassian, John Chrysostom, Marcellus, Maximus the Confessor, Maximus of Turin, Methodius, Paulinus, Proclus, Titus of Basra & Victorinus.* Sources: Thomas Allin, _Christ Triumphant,_ Annotated by Robin Parry edition, chapters 4-5 & Ilaria Ramelli, _A Larger Hope?, Volume 1: Universal Salvation from Christian Beginnings to Julian of Norwich,_ 2019

[@huibertvansilfhout316]

The idea of suffering without end makes God incredible cruel. This picture of God cannot be reconciled with justice and love or any other attribute of God.

[@kimmykimko]

By your human (fallen, imperfect) understanding. But of course you think yourself higher in wisdom than God.

[@huibertvansilfhout316]

You mean for example Matthew 7:11 ??@@kimmykimko

[@7bag7]

@@kimmykimkoYou’re a great example of it! Only a complete psychopath would think God would torture his creation for eternity.

[@paulfick5440]

Remnant Radio has a few great sessions on this topic this year.

[@gngraves]

Well this was not exactly profound! The assumption that the sinner will keep on sinning does not explain anything and surely does not make any difference between whether they are completely destroyed or tormented forever. Your explanation was wholy inadequate. Any simpleton can see that. If a sinner is going to continue to sin that would be all the more reason to completely annihilate them. Destroy them. They cease to exist and their sin cannot continue. Yet for some reason you make an assumption that it would mean the opposite. That we should keep them alive and torment them. And that makes more sense? Not at all. Not at all It is quite the opposite

[@thetachmoniteb825]

Post 1 Who was hell created for in the first place? Was Hell made for finite creatures who possess houses of clay, that is, flesh or was it made for those who are spirit beings? According to Matthew 25:41, Hell itself was created for the Devil and his angels who are spirits, not having bodies of flesh. Hebrews 1:7,14 7 And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS FLAMING FIRE.” 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? Matthew 25:41 41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; Since hell was created for Satan, who is a spiritual being, those who follow after his works will be thrown into the same location, hell. Matthew 25:41,45,46 As a human being, do we only possess a body or are we made up of unearthly or immaterial substances? As a son and daughter of Adam, we are made of body, soul and spirit according to the Scriptures. The point is like the Devil or Satan, our soul and spirit cannot be destroyed. For God is a spirit (John 4:23-24); so our spirit lives on forever; likewise, Satan lives on forever. First, according to the O.T. Texts, we are made of body, soul, and spirit. We are not made of one part but of three: body, soul, and spirit: (1 Thessalonians 5:23), (some say they’re two: soul and body); We have ‘a body’, no debate; We have a ‘soul’: O.T., Genesis 2:7; job 6:7, job12:10 ‘life or soul’, ch 21:25 ch 27:2 ‘embittered my soul’; Isaiah 53:11 ‘anguish of his soul’; Ezekiel 18:19,20. N.T. , JESUS: Mark 14:34 ‘soul’, Mary’s song: Luke 1:46 ‘my soul’; Acts 2:27, Revelation 6:9 ch. 20:4; Looking at the spirit: O.T., Genesis 7:22 ‘the breath of the spirit of life’ Hezekiel’s song; Isaiah 38:16 he says ‘my spirit’; Psalms 143:4 ‘my spirit’ grows faint within me; N.T., JESUS Matthew 27:50 ‘his spirit’ & Luke 23:46 ‘I commit my spirit’, John 19:30 ‘yield up his spirit’; Mary song: Luke 1:47 now she says ‘my spirit’; James 2:26 body without the ‘spirit’ 1 Thessalonians 5:23 LSB 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely, and may YOUR SPIRIT AND SOUL AND BODY be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is He who calls you, who also will do it. The spirit and soul goes to him who created him but if that person was evil then where does his soul go? Before Christ rose from the dead, all went to the ground or earth. Psalm 143:4 in the ground/earth. The souls go to Sheol/Hell or congregation of the dead רְפָאִ֣ים (shades or ghosts plural) Thus, after death, an individual is goes or departs, his body changes color, and God sends him away. Where does this person go? To the grave or Sheol, where the spirits of the departed goes. For those who were of God, who followed his commandments or obeyed his voice, to a place of rest; those who disobeyed the Lord, to a place, of torment, mourning and pain. Job 14:19-22 19 The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man. Destroy abad: to perish A primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. Lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy) -- break, destroy(- uction), + not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, X and surely, take, be undone, X utterly, be void of, have no way to flee. To destroy often times, it means to die or perish. Job 14:20 Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away. Prevail 8630-taqeph: to prevail over, overpower For ever 5331-netsach: eminence, enduring, everlastingness, perpetuity Against him וַֽיַּהֲלֹ֑ךְ he passeth- 1980 halak: to go, come, walk, DEPART all along, apace, behave self, come, on continually, be conversant, depart, be eased, Akin to yalak; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively) Changest-shanah: to repeat, do again do speak, strike again, alter, double A primitive root; to fold, i.e. Duplicate (literally or figuratively); by implication, to transmute (transitive or intransitive) -- (be given to) change, disguise, transmute definition is to change in form, nature Face/Countenance- 6440 panim or paneh: face, faces Sendest him away 7971-shalach: to send A primitive root; to send away, for, or out (in a great variety of applications) Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Noticed, after death, we will not be aware of what’s going on here, on earth; if our son, becomes president we won’t know it, or if our sons or daughters becomes poor, we will not perceive it. *Job 14:22 22 But his flesh upon him shall have PAIN, and his SOUL within him shall MOURN. Here, we have an individual mourning and in pain after death which means his or her soul are alive. Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no working or explaining or knowledge or wisdom IN SHEOL WHERE YOU ARE GOING.

[@thetachmoniteb825]

Post 5 *Take note, concerning if a person is CONSCIOUS in HELL or not; the Rich Man was CONSCIOUS and AWARE of WHERE he was at, in *Luke 19:19-31* Luke 19:19-31 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. hell ᾍδης hadés: 86 Hades, the abode of departed spirits 86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") - properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades. Both Lazarus and the rich man DIED; BOTH were CONSCIOUS and AWARE of where they were; one was in Abraham’s bosom, Lazarus; and the other, the rich man, in hell: he had FIVE BROTHERS and did not desire for them to BE IN HELL, where he was, is the point. 1 Samuel 28:7-19 11 Then said the woman, WHOM SHALL I BRING UP UNTO THEE? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?… The fifth seal where THE SLAIN SOULS cried out to the Lord, were CONSCIOUS AND AWARE what had occurred to them “… judge and AVENGE OUR BLOOD ON THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH”, and “SOULS that were beheaded”, deliver his SOUL from THE HAND/POWR of THE GRAVE”: Revelation 6:9-11: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE COMES BY ONE’S OWN INTERPRETATION…being moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God Jude v7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, having indulged in the same way as these in gross sexual immorality and having gone after [†]strange flesh, are exhibited as an [†]example in undergoing THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE. 2 Peter 2:6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah TO DESTRUCTION BY REDUCING THEM TO ASHES, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter Jude 7 “exhibited as an [†]example in undergoing THE PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL FIRE.” Matthew 13:24-*30,40-42*, 36-43 30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundlesTO BURN THEM UP; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’ bind them in bundles gather the wheat into my barn (Jesus is Lord) according to Micah 4:12 TO BURN THEM UP BURN KATAKAIÓ: to burn up Usage: I burn up, consume entirely. From kata and kaio; to burn down (to the ground), i.e. Consume wholly -- burn (up, utterly). to burn up (see κατά, III. 4), consume by fire: τί, Matthew 13:30; Acts 19:19; passive, 1 Corinthians 3:15; Hebrews 13:11; 2 Peter 3:10 (Tr WH εὑρεθήσεται, see εὑρίσκω, 1 a. at the end); Revelation 8:7; with πυρί added, Matthew 3:12; Matthew 13:40 R L T WH, but G Tr καίω; Luke 3:17 (Exodus 29:14; Exodus 32:20 Alex., etc.; see καίω); ἐν πυρί (often so in the Sept.), Revelation 17:16; Revelation 18:8. (καίω and κατακαίω are distinguished in Exodus 3:2.) Matthew 13:*42* 42 and WILL THROW THEM into THE FIERY FURNACE; IN THAT PLACE THERE WILL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. 2 Peter 1:20-21 20 Know this FIRST OF ALL, that NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE COMES by one’s own interpretation. 21 FOR NO PROPHECY was ever made by the will of man, but men being moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. Revelation 1:3 ch 22:7,18-19 3 BLESSED IS HE WHO READS and those who HEAR THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY and KEEP THE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN in it, for the time is near. Revelation 22:7,10,18-19 7“And behold, I am coming quickly. BLESSED IS HE WHO KEEPS THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK.” 10And he said to me, “Do not seal up THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK, for the time is near 18 I bear witness to everyone who hears THE WORDS OF THE PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THIS PROPHECY, God will take away his part from the tree of life and [†]from the holy city, which are written in this book.

[@tomm6167]

There are many clues in the parable* of Lazarus and the Rich Man that, instead of contrasting the saved vs. unsaved, it's contrasting the treatment of Jews vs. Gentiles in the gospel age^, when the tables would be turned**: 1. Rich Man -- is never directly accused of a sin (only of being wealthy)^^ 2. Lazarus -- is never described as righteous (only of being a beggar)* * * 3. Purple -- indicates royalty (chosenness) 4. Fine linen -- was for Jewish priests (Exodus 28:39) 5. Abraham -- why is he in this parable at all? Because it specifically concerns Judaism. 6. Father Abraham -- described as "Father" 7. Flame -- the flame is singular -- not plural -- strongly suggesting this isn't about hell 8. Five Brothers -- The 5 FULL-blooded brothers of Judah were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar & Zebulun (Gen. 35:23) 9. Moses & Prophets -- The Jewish people had Moses and the prophets 10. Not Convinced by One Rising from the Dead -- a prophecy of Christ's pending resurrection, which his Jewish audience would become very familiar with but would not heed (for the most part) * It follows the parables of the Lost Sheep, the Lost Coin, the Prodigal Son and the Unjust Steward, strongly suggesting that it, too, is a parable. So does one drop of water being able to help in this situation. ^ In the gospel age, Israel is partially hardened by God (Rom. 11:25), while Gentiles are included in the church. ** This doesn't _excuse_ centuries of anti-semitism, right up to the present time. ^^ The Rich Man's material wealth represents his belonging to the chosen people, and having the written revelation of God (Hebrew scriptures). * * * Lazarus represents Gentiles who were beggars in the sense that they were lacking knowledge of God, due to God's chosen people not having shared it with them. (Consider the unjust steward in the preceding parable, and Jesus overturning tables at the temple.)

[@Birdylockso]

"Their arguments are far better...(but) I'm convinced they are not (right)." Thanks for the logic! LOL

[@gnc623]

That's twisting what James White said. He said that their arguments are better than we give them credit for and because many of us only believe what we believe because of tradition, that many don't have the knowledge to refute them.

[@keether1135]

Annihilation is the punishment and it’s everlasting. Cessation of life is what death is. The wages of sin is the cessation of life (that is it’s death, the second death)

[@arcguardian]

The second death is eternal torment, it's everlasting. There is no life in hell.

[@BallersLife3]

@@arcguardianits not eternal torment. Everlasting punishment means everlasting death.

[@BallersLife3]

@@arcguardianSodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by an everlasting fire and it isn't burning right now

[@kimmykimko]

Their worm never dies. They long for death but death flees from them. That doesn't sound like annihilation.

[@AURush95]

⁠​⁠@@kimmykimkoyou are taking this completely out of context. It literally says in verse 5 “They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them...” 5 months is a strange way to say for eternity. This is not even talking about Hell

[@tomm6167]

Some thoughts on people continuing to sin in hell forever: "[In] the vicious circle argument, God creates a situation in hell in which sin is not merely _punished_ for eternity but actually _perpetuated for eternity._ But why would God wish to create a situation in which many of his creatures rebel against him forever? Hell does not _have_ to be that way. For instance, God could make those in hell fully aware of the weight of their crimes and the righteousness of his judgment. Such sinners would suffer but would recognize that they fully deserve the punishment they are receiving and would not rage against God. Or, God could annihilate those in hell, eradicating both sin and sinner. Alternatively, as I will argue later, God could restore those in hell and redeem them from sin. In all these ways justice is still done, but sin is not perpetuated. And any of these three alternatives seem preferable to the view according to which sin is never _removed_ from creation but merely contained in a kind of stasis chamber where it is perfectly balanced by punishment." --Gregory MacDonald (aka Robin Parry), _The Evangelical Universalist_

[@gr8tnes_incarnat960]

People often use damnation. One word that is often forgotten is perdition. As in spanish/latin perder (to lose, to perish). So to be destroyed, consumed, to perish etc. are all synonymous. To perish means there will be nothing of you left. Neither body and nor soul, neither root nor stem. The whole eternal conscious torment was something that was promulgated by the Catholic church. If that was indeed the nature of the second death, then there is a bigger problem. How can my love for God be genuine if my love for him is only predicated on the condition that I don't fry in hell for eternity? It's like oh you must love me, and if you don't than I'll burn you for eternity. You can't force someone you know to love you, it can only be done by their own volition. So the punishment is temporary, but the result will be eternal.

[@Baa975]

Yeah. What about Rev 14 9-11? Did the Catholics make up all of it?

[@gr8tnes_incarnat960]

@@Baa975 Keep in mind that a lot of stuff in revelations are allegorical & hyperbolic. Which means they aren't meant to be taken literally. Same with the allegory of the rich man and Lazarus. It's an allegory.

[@Baa975]

@@gr8tnes_incarnat960 could you elaborate on the allegory?

[@gr8tnes_incarnat960]

@@Baa975 Allegory meaning the way it is written isn't meant to be taken literally. The 4 horsemen of the apocalypse for example are not literal entities that will emerge during the escaton. Nor is the beast going to be an actual beast the will claim power and such. It's not popular to say it publically but the beast in revelations is the Vatican. Each of the seven heads representing the different reigns of the Roman Empire. There is plenty of material on this, however on I don't want to elaborate on it cus I don't wanna write a book lol. But the church of God seventh day, seventh day adventist, church of God (Israelites), etc all get the right idea. Hell aka Hades aka Sheol aka Gehenna are an abode for the dead. In other words a grave. "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" Why would hell be cast into hell?

[@Jsnabahuakwna877an]

⁠@@Baa975 well it is referring to people who specifically take the mark.

[@Wink81]

A year later, and toilet paper panic is still in the memory bank 🤦‍♂️

[@OC3707]

Annihilationism is an eternal punishment. It also puts an end to rebellion against God.

[@Romans8-9]

@Rene Aswangan Eternal separation for them not for God.

[@ibperson7765]

@Rene Aswangan Yes. And the adjective eternal in greek can refer to the consequence or to the noun. Eg “eternal judgment” on judgment day obviously is not God taking forever to decide. It’s the consequence that is eternal. Just like eternal punishment, ceasing to exist when you could have had eternal life is an eternal consequence.

[@JohnnyNada]

Lol

[@Orangeokie7]

I've heard James before say that a rebel sinner continues to sin after death but I've never heard him explain where he gets that idea.

[@DoctorMcFarlandStudios]

He just made it up.

[@Loislikes]

Yea, that confused me. Also in the end, isn't it more about separation or removal from God's presence. If you refuse God's gift of eternal lift with him, than you will just be REMOVED completely. You made the choice, the choice you made was seperation and DEATH. Not sure why the disobedience of God would require everlasting punishment. Moreover, when people die and find out God is real, I think many people will be remorseful and not at all rebellious. They know God is real now, how can they still be in defiance. Lucifer fell from heaven, he knew God existed, he wanted to be God, therefore his situation and hatred for God is more than likely unchanging forever.

[@brianevans6328]

The gnashing of teeth that is several times used to describe the destination of the wicked. It's also used in Acts 7:54 to describe the Sanhedrin's reaction to Stephen's sermon to them. It's not a description of pain or torment (as weeping and wailing may be) but of anger or indignation.

[@mikeforfar9493]

"The vast majority of NT scholars hold...... to conditionalism" according to James White at 4:54. " I wonder why? Could it be that conditionalism and Annihilationism are what the bible teaches. I think so. Eternal Conscious Torment is garbage.. Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!... NET Matthew 25:46 “And these will depart into eternal [death] punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” NET Notice that in the words of Jesus quoted here he compares eternal punishment with eternal life. But what does the bible mean by 'eternal punishment'? Eternal punishment is not eternal life burning in fire. Eternal punishment is eternal death, Romans 6:23 “For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” NET Here the Apostle Paul, as Jesus did, compares eternal punishment with eternal life. The pay for sin is death, eternal death. The penalty for sin is not eternal life in the lake of fire. eternal punishment = eternal death God's own eternal fire being the method of execution. The eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his angels and it was originally only intended for them. No human being was meant to be destroyed there. But we find a large class of humanity side with Satan and his angels in rebellion against God therefore they must meet the same end. The devil does not live in hell as is commonly taught. It is future one off event where Satan and his followers are to be destroyed.

[@Superman111181]

This response doesnt take the equally difficult counter question into consideration: how does a person continue to have subjective experience (or consciousness), when God removes His life sustaining power? What "life" does the creature maintain in hell? The conditionalist posits that the judgment by necessity annihilates the individual by virtue of removing that penuma.

[@rigatonijacobs]

If it is OK to assume we may sin after death why is it not reasonable to say we can ask for forgiveness after death as well?

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

Or it should be ok to assume we are dead after death and neither sin nor ask for forgiveness. All could be possibilities.

[@daveg862]

and also Matthew 10:47-48. And, of course, lean not on your own understanding. Listened to 11 minutes and not one verse? You are sacrificing the Word of God to fit your understanding.

[@ndjarnag]

You are just making it up as you go along.

[@Loislikes]

I didn't agree entirely with the response. I think much of it was a very confusing opinion on what "Justice" is. If humans have the ability to Love another so much, they would not want them to suffer day and night forever, would that mean our love is greater than God's? That would be blasphemous to think so. Which is why I question Hell being eternal. What is Justice, and what is Mercy? I know we are not perfect in either, but it is something to think about.

[@DialecticDiaries]

I agree in his solitude statement and that is where I have a contradiction. Where do the demons come from?

[@AllSven]

Where does existence come from?

[@lastchance8142]

You can thank the pagans who "became christians" in the early centuries for bringing this doctrine into the church. Unless you already believe it, you must twist the scriptures to find it. God has stated over and over that the wages of sin is death, and the the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Jesus said to fear God, who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna. At the judgement, unsaved souls are cast into the Lake of Fire (gehenna). This is the Second Death, the death and destruction of the soul. Your existence is ended. Dont confuse the judgement of immortal beings (ie: Satan), with the judgement of mortal men. Eternal life is a gift reserved for the saved, not the damned. God is love. But some want to make Him worse than any monster. If you know the love of God, you can't believe this. Check out "The fire that consumes" for a good scriptural primer on this topic. God help us.

[@Baa975]

What about Rev 14 9-11?

[@lastchance8142]

@@Baa975 Yes, a fearful scripture of judgement for those who worship the beast! Remember Revelation is very symbolic and hard to understand. Who is this beast? Who are the 144,000? What is Babalon the great city? But "they" are tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the holy Angels. For how long, forever? So this can't be the traditional Hell, separated from God and heaven forever. Also, fire is not mentioned here. "The smoke rising up forever " is always biblical language for total, final destruction, like Sodom. "Day and night" are earthly things, so this "rest" doesn't speak to spiritual things. Finally, when is this? It doesn't say this happens after the resurrection, at judgement day. The "harvest " of the earth comes later in this chapter. Could this be while they're still alive, on earth? Or during the intermediate state, in Hades? We just can't say for sure. What we can say for sure is that the end of the unsaved is to be cast into the Lake of Fire, this is the Second Death, the death of the soul, the end of life forever! Only the redeemed are given eternal life, not the damned! Praise God.

[@ttownsupreme2183]

Although I believe in Ultimate Reconciliation Last Chance thank you for putting down ECT...it has caused millions to blaspheme the name of God

[@Belliferous]

Appealing to authority? Okay well Ignatius taught that the wicked don’t gain eternal life. How can you have eternal torment and also not have eternal life?

[@lannybrasher2452]

I'll bet there will be more prayers from hell after judgement than any other time in history.😢

[@davidcollins264]

How are you supposed to sin if you are dead? I really don’t get that.

[@MB-wg2ti]

You are more than just a meat suit - you're a body, soul (mind, will and emotions) and spirit. Your body is merely the vehicle carrying you around and when your meat suit dies, you have to leave this realm. Your spirit lives forever, either with God or in hell.

[@1920s]

Merinda Birk Scripture says only God posses immortality and gives it as a gift to those in Christ.

[@MB-wg2ti]

@@1920s You are confusing eternal life and eternal being/existence(spirit being, breath of God), immortality with salvation. Scripture clearly explains all: The gift of God you are referring to is not immortality, but salvation: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8) The Biblical definition of eternal life is not immortality and its definition can be found in Joh 17:3 - "Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent." So, hell is eternal separation from God. The rest of Scripture supports our spirit being eternal and does not teach the destruction/death thereof: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it” (Ecc 12:7) Matt 17: 1-8 records the transfiguration of Christ, revealing that living spirits of men (Moses and Elijah), dead for ages, talking with Jesus and living souls of men alive on earth. In Luk 16:19-31, we read of the rich man and Lazarus, and there is evidence, beyond doubt, of the consciousness of the spirit after death. These men could hear, think, talk and feel. After death the rich man remembered, and talked about things during his life on earth. "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned" (Joh5:28-29) In Matt 25:46 Jesus says to those who did not prepare for heaven, “these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal.”

[@1920s]

Merinda Birk No, I’m not confusing anything. The wages of sin is death.

[@MB-wg2ti]

@@1920s So define death biblically, supported with Scripture and the whole counsel of God.

[@stevendrumm4957]

Wayne Grudem has made the same arguments as Dr. James White has in this video, namely that the unsaved continue to sin in hell which is why the punishment is everlasting. I am undecided on this issue, but lean slightly towards eventual annihilationism.

[@MattRyniker]

Psalm chapter 1. The Way of the wicked will come to an end.

[@Kaddywompous]

My understanding of the annihilation viewpoint is that the sinner doesn’t keep sinning because the sinner doesn’t exist anymore. I found White’s argument there to be very strange.

[@friendlyfire7509]

Be sure to let your friends and family know: REJECT THE PAPACY

[@JohnnyNada]

Lol

[@wwatkin21]

They don’t remain in the condition of rebellion because they are dead. You can’t continue to act and think when you are dead because you’re dead. The resurrection implies that the wicked and the just MUST be CONSCIOUS in order to receive their judgement therefore those who are not resurrected are not CONSCIOUS therefore they cannot act or think. Which means their sin is indeed finite. Addressing the point that sin is against an infinite God simplifies Gods ability’s, as if God cannot think or make rationale decisions based off his own attributes. Just because he is an infinite God does not mean his hands are tied in regards to being reasonable, IF his creation is capable of reason how much more would the CREATOR be capable of reason? What Mr. White is referring to is the fact they have not RECEIVED their judgment yet. Not that they remain in the CONDITION of sin, but rather they died in sin still hating God and have not yet RECEIVED their just punishment. Also eternal conscious torment does not square up with Gods promise that a new creation will be made void of sin. If the wicked are judged and suspended in eternal conscious torment what exactly is their position-relationally to God-in this consciousness? Their sin has been revealed to them and they have confessed that Christ is King. So are the wicked now repentant upon their judgement and into their punishment? If not, then they are eternally suspended in sin, but sin can no longer exist in Gods new creation. You can’t have human beings still hating God for all eternity in heaven. That would not be heaven. This also is not a finalization. God says that IT IS FINISHED! If people are still actively hating God for eternity then God finished nothing. Think about this IF repentance is only a gift from God then those who are suffering eternal conscious torment can never repent and therefore are still sinning for ALL eternity. Though they have bowed their knees in submission to their creator they cannot repent of their deeds. They can’t be allowed to sin any longer.

[@kimmykimko]

You don't understand death in a biblical way.

[@wwatkin21]

“If you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall die” “The soul who sins shall die” So in biblical terms what what God meaning when he said “die”?

[@Mrm1985100]

So James White believes not only in the hideous doctrines of Calvinism but also in the hideous doctrine of eternal torment. Wow, what a lovely set of doctrines. What "Good News"!

[@mumofgirls9991]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXm4gaOjl7mCjJY

[@Mrm1985100]

@@mumofgirls9991 Yeah, good stuff from Fudge there. Annihilationism is what Scripture actually teaches.

[@mylesmillar4151]

Forever means a period of time in greek, it's never been no end in the Bible, E.G soddum and Gomorrah, Jonah and the whale, 3 days and 3 nights. Hell will be on earth and we come back after 1k is expired and walk over the ashes of the wicked.. iam sure your reading the verse out of context. Only God has immortality life and who are saved not the demons and people in hell. Sin will be wipped out from the universe.

[@pappybigs5663]

Actually the Greek is "unceasing" or perpetual

[@ReversingtheFall]

This topic and the reaction you're speaking of is akin to current eschatological beliefs. Most people are dispensationalists and have no clue what the preterists/partial preterists positions are. They look at you as if you're speaking in tongues when trying to get them to understand it's a viable belief with a solid history.

[@PuertoRican-EL]

James, stop with the assertions. It doesn't matter if you want to say the wicked continue in their state of sin after death. The wicked are being judged for the short amount of time they are on the planet Earth. They are being judged for their Finite wickedness

[@exclusive_148]

how does one explain the rich man and lazarus?? How is that a "parable"?? Have not heard a good argument for that story being a parable when it uses specific people that actually existed

[@deanwall9291]

Here are the reasons I believe it's a parable. -Jesus told this story/parable in a series of parables. - Matt.13v34 Jesus taught everything in parables. -Lazarus was very sick and he would not have been allowed in the city. As per Judaic law. Therefore it is a parable.

[@johnkristofftimbal5053]

I am convinced that the bible teaches Eternal Annihilation or Annihilation the Total Detruction of unsaved in the sense that they will Never be existed or ceased to exist. Thats Biblical, Bible Teaches that Immortality and Eternal living is Given to those who believe only and Believe in the Finish work of Jesus Christ through His Death, Burial and Ressurection

[@Nabutuki2010]

People think death is the most severest punishment but hell is worse than death, it is beyond death.

[@johnkristofftimbal5053]

@@Nabutuki2010 hell is a grave sheol hades all people will be in hell grave, the lake of fire is the literal fire, but the truth is the bible teaches annihilationism there will be eternal Distruction meaning the Wicked will eternaly Punish but it is Not for Eternity for Gods Character is Love, Gods Character has Been Blasphemed in Catholic cult and other protestant religion God is Love He will Not Eternaly torture people for eternity while it remain a fact that The Quality of fire is Eternaly but it does not mean the Duration is eternal. God is Love

[@johnkristofftimbal5053]

@@Nabutuki2010 hell is a grave sheol hades all people will be in hell grave, the lake of fire is the literal fire after 1000 years, but the truth is that the bible teaches annihilationism there will be eternal Distruction meaning the Wicked will eternaly Punish and destroy and Ceased to Exist,, it is Not for Eternity the Punishment for Gods Character is Love, Gods Character has Been Blasphemed in Catholic cult and other protestant religion today, God is Love He will Not Eternaly torture people for eternity.in hell, fact and truth is this , while it remain a fact that The Quality of fire is Eternaly severe but it does not mean the Duration is eternal or eternity in duration No!. God is Love

[@johnkristofftimbal5053]

@@Nabutuki2010 I Am Now A Hopeful Universal Salvation ( Universalist ) Let Us Pray to.our Lord Jesus For the Salvation of All Mankind Even to those who Are Now in Torment of Fire, Gods Will is that All Shall Be Saved(1Timothy2:4) ( 2 peter3:9), He is Our Creator Knows everything from the Beginning He Knows Everything Even the World has Not yet made. God is Love and Gehenna and The Lake of Fire is REAL for Chastening and Purification to Remove The Sin of Each Person, GOD IS LOVE LET US PRAY FOR THE SALVATION TO ALL MANKIND EVEN TO THOSE WHO ARE NOW IN TORMENT OF FIRE. BY GODS MERCY. GODBLESS

[@johnkristofftimbal5053]

@@Nabutuki2010 I Am Now A Hopeful Universal Salvation ( Universalist ) Let Us Pray to.our Lord Jesus For the Salvation of All Mankind Even to those who Are Now in Torment of Fire, Gods Will is that All Shall Be Saved(1Timothy2:4) ( 2 peter3:9), He is Our Creator Knows everything from the Beginning He Knows Everything Even the World has Not yet made. God is Love and Gehenna and The Lake of Fire is REAL for Chastening and Purification to Remove The Sin of Each Person, GOD IS LOVE LET US PRAY FOR THE SALVATION TO ALL MANKIND EVEN TO THOSE WHO ARE NOW IN TORMENT OF FIRE. BY GODS MERCY. GODBLESS

[@icecoolguita]

Does any annihilationist actually have a sound argument against this? All I'm seeing in the comments here are annihilationist's saying it's true for other reasons but not addressing his point(that unbelievers do not stop sinning after death).

[@ryangallmeier6647]

"For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must PUT ON IMMORTALITY. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal PUTS ON IMMORTALITY, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” [1 Cor. 15:53-55]. The "immortality" that is "put on" at the 2nd Advent of Christ only applies to the saints (all believers from all time). The wicked are NEVER said to "put on immortality" ever...at any time. They will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire at the Final Judgement, at their respective resurrection (after the Millennium). *Soli Deo Gloria*

[@robd2650]

The gentlemen that injects the comments toward the end, fails to understand that it's not quite that simple. I think we need much scripture together, & even prayer, because of the time this doctrine has been around, & has be engrained into our thinking. The same Greek words for "eternal(aionios) fire" (or age-lasting fire, or eonian fire, etc, as literal Bibles translate it) are used of the "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom & was not "eternal" but temporary, i.e. finite.

[@michaelnewzealand1888]

yes eternal fire is only clarified in Jude 7 where the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah serves as an example of those who will suffer the punishment of eternal fire. They were zapped in an instant and fried, not tortured endlessly forever

[@edgarmorales4476]

Even though God is behind creation, that doesn't mean that God is behind everything that happens within creation. Since certain creations, such as ourselves, have been given free will and are capable of being creators in our own right; including creating suffering for ourselves and others. This particular misunderstanding, that God is causing our suffering and perhaps punishing us, is one of the most dangerous misunderstanding promoted by religious teachers; for how can we become free from suffering if we don't understand what's causing it? As long as we believe that lie, we will blame God or others, or our circumstances for our suffering and not see that we are the ones responsible for our suffering. Our mistaken thinking, and the negative emotions and negative actions that flow from our thoughts causes our suffering. Depending on what we choose to believe, and how we choose to respond to life; we create more Love in the world or the opposite. When we choose to express the opposite of Love or cause harm, it is not God that is at fault. God gifted us with the freedom to choose and to create, and we eventually learn from our choices to be better creators; to create happiness instead of suffering, and it is suffering that teaches us this; suffering points us away from what is anti-life, anti-Love. Our own personal suffering is the so-called "punishment" we receive for making choices that are not aligned with Love; that is the only "punishment", if we will, meted out by God. We are designed to suffer whenever we miss the mark, which is the meaning of sin; the mark, the target or goal, is Love. We suffer whenever we fall out of alignment with Love. Suffering and joy are part of the guidance system we've been given; the homing device, which when followed, will bring us back home to Love. Suffering tells us that we are believing a lie or taking a wrong direction; while joy tells us the opposite. If we don't want to suffer, then we must stop believing or doing what causes us and others suffering; and start believing and doing what brings peace, Love and joy.

[@ajunta2270]

Be careful about equating love to God. God is love, but love is not God. Also, suffering does not mean evil. It may seem so from our human point of view, but it isn't. God wants to abolish evil, he may use suffering to achieve that goal. It is God's wrath that came down upon Jesus, when he atoned for our sins. That suffering was not evil, for it is our salvation.

[@blackhairedrubio]

I found this even less helpful than the more common arguments. Like hmmm let me use another assumption to defend eternal conscious torment. The amount of arrogance in the statement “I wish they were right” is crazy. As if you know for sure lol…. There are church fathers who were brilliant and closer to the time scripture was written that even argue universal reconciliation. ECT is definitely the least likely in all of the theories and least in line with the gracious and merciful nature of God.

[@AidenRKrone]

Annihilationism in the context of monergistic Calvinism makes more logical sense than it does in the context of "synergistic" Arminianism. In predestinarian Calvinism, it arguably would be morally just for God to extinguish a non-elect soul after a certain amount of time in Hell rather than letting that soul exist in conscious agony in Hell forever through no fault of its own. In Arminianism, however, _all people_ are called toward the Father through Christ via prevenient grace, and if people _choose_ to ignore that calling, they have no excuse if they end up in Hell. Regardless, annihilationism (and other forms of conditionalism) are not true in _any_ context. The torment of Hell is eternal because _all souls in Hell are continually and ceaselessly rejecting God,_ so that the sin of unbelief never "catches up" to the punishment.

[@stephendavis5325]

James! The eternal sinful state of the wicked IS the reason God destroys them, after their torment for what they have done in the body. That IS an eternal punishment, for they will never live again. The righteous will walk on the ashes of the wicked, as it says in Malachi. There are over 150 scriptures throughout 40 of the 66 books of the Bible that I know of, that support conditional immortality. Please reconsider your belief as it relates to this matter!