No Proof of Eternal Torment - Marz

Rapper Marz (Zlatko Hukic) describes how he believes that the teaching of eternal conscious torment would be much more obviously taught in the Bible if it were true.
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[@simthiam3712]

I can feel the inner peace of Marz. His heart is free of the toxic teachings of Eternal Damnation.

[@eekay5710]

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (The Second Death is not to distract from the 'once and for all death' that Jesus died, but to endorse it. In the lake of fire, Death and Hades are eradicated from memory. The first death is the 'once and for all death' that Jesus died, representing the global death of humankind. Jesus' death took mankind's death in Adam out of the equation. [Heb 9:27,28; 2Cor 5:14-17]. The idea of the Second Death has to do with the fact that the revelation of everyone’s inclusion in the death of Jesus, has not yet dawned on some - so it will take a crisis, often, their own death, to immediately engage them with the symbolic cleansing [from their unbelief] represented by the lake of burning sulphur, purifying like in a furnace, separating the gold from the dross-mindsets. Rev 2:11 + Rev 20:6 The Mirror Study Bible.

[@asmartbajan]

His heart is just as evil as yours and mine. Read Matthew 10 verse 28 and see if you come to the same conclusion about hell he does. If we were to cease to exist we wouldn't be aware of anything. So, what's so awful about that? *Do not be deceived.*

[@CelticVictory]

He is believing a lie. That doesn't make him free.

[@charleshines2142]

I am realizing that 2 kinds of people speak of eternal damnation. They are wicked people who like to scare everyone or people who believed those wicked people thinking that they preached the Gospel. Much of the horrible beliefs in Hell come from biblical mistranslations from the original Greek texts to other languages. Hell is the grave, not some terrifying place where someone who committed even one sin in their whole lifetime is doomed to suffer. Keep in mind that Jesus forgives sin. Maybe he will even have a nice long chat with the person who first created the terrible myths of eternal damnation. Most likely asking him things like what were you thinking before finally telling him he is forgiven as long as he never speaks of these terrible things again.

[@simthiam3712]

@@charleshines2142 Bad tree bear bad fruits. This Doctrine of Eternal Damnation is toxic. It poison people's mind.

[@MrHwaynefair]

6:30 - What the Reformed/Calvinists are FORCED to admit is NOT that God is not Sovereign - but that He is NOT Love - and therefore is not compelled by his very own nature and essence to Love all that He has made. It is not coincidental that in Calvin's Institutes he NEVER quotes from 1st John, "God is Love" (stated twice there for emphasis). But when you combine Sovereignty with Love - you inevitably get Historic Christian Universalism... As a former, seminary trained Calvinist pastor - I speak from my own personal experience. Thank you for this wonderful witness to the Truth of God's all-encompassing Love! (I never dreamed I would hear such an articulate presentation on this from a rapper!)

[@dwaynecarlson8953]

Thanks for your reply. Makes me smile with tears in my eyes.

[@robertwegner8962]

Nothing more disgusting and repugnant than Calvinism.

[@ttownsupreme2183]

You mind if I email you...as someone who is coming out of ECT and is struggling with it.

[@michaelj.frazee9043]

@@ttownsupreme2183 Lol I think we've been down this email road before! 🤣🤣🤣 I've researched a lot of near death experiences and have come to find that the overwhelming majority experience a very loving, non-judgmental Creator. The few that see some sort of hell are indoctrinated with religious backgrounds or they just expect to see hell. Yet even they get "saved out of their perceived experience. Just like the principles of Quantum Mechanics. We reap what we sow in this life, and that's our punishment whenever we sin. We aren't punished for our sins, we're punished "by" our sins. This is something that I've gradually come to believe over a period of time. I don't think God judges us in the afterlife, and this looks to be true, if I were to go by what I've gathered based on my investigations of near death experiences. And I think it makes sense, in my opinion, because this life seems like it's quite enough punishment ALL BY ITSELF! 😵 We reap what we sow, in this life. (Galatians 6:7)

[@michaelj.frazee9043]

@@ttownsupreme2183 Here is proof that Hell is simply referring to this difficult world we live in. Proverbs 15:24 The way of life [is] above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. John 8:23 And he said unto them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world. Conclusion by verse association. If hell is referred to as being, "from beneath" and Jesus referred to those people as being from this world which is from beneath, therefore this world is hell. Here is more: Psalm 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. 1 John 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in wickedness. There are no Bible verses that say hell is eternal or everlasting. No verse that says sinners go to hell. Those are religious cliches that are NOT biblical. In fact there is no mention of anyone in hell except for a certain rich man in Luke 16 but Jesus refers to that man as a parable in this verse Luke 12:16 And He told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. There is no way to associate from the Bible that hell and the lake of fire are the same thing. Christians make that association due to hearsay only. Because there is no verse that says hell is eternal, they needed to steal the lake of fire notion, but the lake of fire is not hell because the Bible says, "Hell was cast into the Lake of Fire." To conclude, this physical world is what the Bible is referring to as hell. Also how can hell be eternal when the Bible says the very opposite: Proverbs 15:24 The way of life [is] above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. Acts 2:27 Because You will not leave my soul in hell, neither will You allow Your Holy One to see decay. Psalm 86:13 For great is Your mercy to me: and You have delivered my soul from the lowest hell. Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter. Many of our trials in this life are like Hell for sure, the trials we cannot be released from until God delivers us lol.

[@ejmproductions8198]

The doctrine of hell has ripped me apart - Thank God I'm finding out about preachers like this on KZbin My little dog does not really like me, I don't think he loves me - but to torture him for this for eternity is unthinkable

[@DIBBY40]

I am sensitive by nature. When I was evangelical I used to walk around my shopping centre thinking, "OMG all these people are going to hell. How can I just go shopping like everything is normal?" I used to think that "their blood would be on my hands" if I didn't speak to them. Soo heavy. I was wracked with so much guilt.

[@ttownsupreme2183]

God Bless you David been in a similar situation before hope you are doing well

[@DIBBY40]

@@ttownsupreme2183 I'm doing really well Ttown. I was in my late teens then; I'm 56 now. Life is good 💖

[@demonicaxeman7264]

I'm also sensitive by nature. Years ago I had a heated debate with my very religious mother and she could never understand how the concept of Hell and a "Loving God" contradict. I was getting angry because the Hell concept did damage to my psyche growing up... she was getting angry because her world was built around her belief system and anything contradicting that would also feel damaging to her. There's a lot of healing that is needed and the early Christians caused a lot of damage by insisting on the preaching of Hellfire.

[@eekay5710]

Although the word "hell" appears in the Bible, it only was brought in during the time churches decided to have more control over people (fear;💰). That was the perception of many in those day, but the word 'hell' is definitely translated wrong. The most common words that are used, are the Hebrew word Sheol & the Greek word Gehenna, Tartaro & Hades. Sometimes Abussos are also used as ref to 'hell'. SHEOL - this word is mostly used in the OT where 'hell' could be interpretated, but it is only refers to the 'place' where everybody who dies, go. Temporary, only where the bodies were put in 'rest', nót a place of eternal punishment of any negative scare thought. We can also call this place the grave. People of faith in the Old Test like king David (Ps 49:16 and 88:4), Jacob/Israel (Gen 37:35) and Hiskia (Jes 38:10) knew they were going to this 'place of rest', the grave). Súrely these 3 men never would ended up in the so-called' hell' as we have it in our thoughts! HADES simply means 'not to see'. Spiritual blindness. Jesus in John 9 to the Pharisees & the man born blind.

[@ninjashadow2287]

So you're atheist now & no creator?

[@simthiam3712]

Eternal Hell = Eternal Torture. God is not Hitler, n God is not a sadist. So how could a loving God ever created such a place ?

[@mikefanofmovies]

"5/6/11 From The Lord, Our God and Savior The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear Thus says The Lord: Behold, the corrupt doctrines of the churches of men have crept into every corner; near and far, the doctrine of hell and eternal torment is embraced by the people. Yet I tell you the truth, this doctrine is a loathsome spot on every garment worn in the name of truth! A detestable wrinkle within the tapestry of My glory! A horrible interwoven thread by which those who call of themselves Christian pollute My name and mar My image before the people, propagating that which came forth from the mouth of the dragon! THIS DOCTRINE IS EVIL! And must be opposed by all who have received the love of the Truth. For I have indeed spoken to this generation, even as I have spoken in all times past. For I AM THE LORD, The Light in whom there is no darkness at all." www.thevolumesoftruth.com/A_Blemish_and_a_Stain

[@jradfole93]

I’ve thought about this too; yes he is a God of justice, yes he is going to punish the wicked, yes there will be fire, but is not eternal. But even the thought of being destroyed forever and never seeing Christ or any loved ones again is still terrifying, especially for all of us in the future (Living and dead) who will see his Glory. If someone did to my wife what the Pharisees and the Romans did to Jesus, I would delight in bashing the living hell out of them; and better yet, if the most scummy and evil human being I can think of also copped the same punishment as Jesus and went to hell for an eternal life of torment I would still at sone point say “Ok, that’s enough, he knows what he’s done wrong and will well and truly never do it again. So me, my wife and said scummy human are all sinners and far far less than God/Jesus and if me; a sinner, who is not God and and far less loving and merciful than God would never dream of doing this to my worst enemy then where does that leave God in terms of his justice, judgement and wrath? If you believe God is loving, merciful but also just then you also have to believe that his punishment for sin was not only poured upon his Son is also far more perfect than any that I; a sinner can think of.

[@RTD777]

This is what the GOOD NEWS is all about! We really are "at the precipice of coming out of a second dark age." This needs to be heard by more people.

[@fazbell]

Hell is a very valuable tool in controlling the masses.

[@caroleevandyk5544]

True, but in this day of easy access to excellent study tools and scholarly works revealing the true nature and plan of God for humanity it is pretty sad how vehemently Christians defend THE MOST VICIOUS IDEA imaginable and present a psychotic monster of a god to the world and a pathetic, impotent saviour who can only stand by helplessly as the vast majority of those He came to save just won’t get with His program and so He has no choice but to trash them in hell forever. How these people sleep or have any joy in life only reveals their blindness and hypocrisy.

[@mariarubinstein581]

Thank you so much Marz!

[@TheHumbuckerboy]

Blessed message !

[@mikhailyaremkiv]

Death. Death is what the sinner gets. Not eternal torture, not infinite time and chances to change his mind. Death.

[@eekay5710]

Did not Jesus conquered sin & death ?

[@IsaacNussbaum]

@@eekay5710 *"Did not Jesus conquered sin & death?"* Yes, he did, E. K. Does that translate into universalism? Let's look and see. ✴ For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23, ESV) ✴ _"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see_ [ eternal ] life…"_. (John 3: 36, ESV) ✴ …when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (James 1: 15, NKJV) ✴ There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. (Proverbs 16: 25, ESV) ✴ Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins. (James 5: 20, NIV) ✴ For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (Romans 8: 13; ESV) ✴ …[sinners] are worthy of death…. (Romans 1: 32; KJV)

[@mikhailyaremkiv]

Yes! That's why, in the paradise God prepared for us, there will be no more death, crying or pain.

[@eekay5710]

@@mikhailyaremkiv But paradise/heaven has come to us..? Did not Jesus went to prepare a place ín us? Since His/our cross-events 'there' has become within. It's only the carnal mind that still pictures distance and separation "and wait for stuff that already happened".

[@danturner2602]

Let's go Marz! You're awesome bro.

[@vinsparks4600]

An excellent interview. After 40 years of absurdity (ECT), God touched my mind while reading Colossians 1:15-20 - a real epiphany. I broke down and wept saying, "Can this be true?" I've been enlightened now for just 2 1/2 years and am working on a book. (BTW, where can we get the hoodie?

[@thecarlitosshow7687]

I want that hoodie too

[@Jordan-hz1wr]

I've never heard of this guy before but I'm so glad I did. He's 100% correct!

[@bebrave9108]

Marz is the man

[@ViolinistJeff]

He's a great guy. I'd love to meet him some day.

[@johnmeeks2799]

So you liked the way he tickled your ear and make sin seem like not as big a deal to a Holy God?

[@michaelj.frazee9043]

@@johnmeeks2799 Wow, you must be a fundamentalist, cuz you are stuck in the mud of religious church traditions and doctrines of men. Wake up and do some investigating. The doctrine of eternal conscious torment is PAGAN to the core, which makes you an actual PAGAN, unknowingly. The Universal Salvation position is the only one that ties all of scripture together, glorifies God in Christ alone (not man), elevates our Absolute Sovereign God's Plan for ALL creation to it's proper beautiful place, and removes the PAGAN god of eternal torment which snuck in unawares...largely because of a simple but critical translation error relating to the Greek "aion"- which always means "age", as well as "aionos", "aionon", aionas", "aioni", "aionion", "aiona"-as relates to or pertaining to the age/s being specified. Loving Grace and the subsequent peace that follows it to you and ALL.

[@Jordan-hz1wr]

@@johnmeeks2799 Eternal conscious torment is no victory over sin, rather it is the eternal perpetuation of it. You my friend, are the one who doesn't take sin seriously enough.

[@bebrave9108]

That point on Sovereignty was so good

[@dwaynecarlson8953]

Great job Marz. Keep up the good fight.

[@GregS4Jesus]

Absolutely true! Great message!

[@peterbrooks6134]

Beautiful thank you

[@simthiam3712]

The Lake of Fire is a platform provided by God for spiritual purification, not for eternal torment. Only a sadist would want to eternally torture anyone....

[@davidindrayantrisnadi8955]

read the old testament...

[@michaelj.frazee9043]

@@davidindrayantrisnadi8955 TOP 16 REASONS YAHWEH IS NOT GOD. Ok, this list is actually 16 reasons, I couldn’t keep it at 10 there’s just waaay to many reasons. 1) Yahweh is a liar and deceiver. -1 Kings 22:23 God does not lie.- Hebrews 6:18 2) Yahweh dwells in deep darkness. -1 Kings 8:12, Exodus 20:21, Deut 5:22-23 God dwells in unapproachable light.- 1 Tim 6:16 3) Yahweh uses death to control people. - The whole Old Testament Death is an enemy of God, it is the last enemy that Jesus will destroy. -1 Cor 15:26 4) Moses spoke to Yahweh face to face.- Exodus 33:11 Jesus said that NO ONE has ever seen God or heard his voice. -John 1:18 and John 5:37 5) Yahweh claims to be God and gives Moses the 10 commandments.- exodus 20 The New Testament calls the commandments a ministry of death and condemnation which was given by angels. - 2 Cor 3:7, 2 Cor 3:9, Gal 3:19, Acts 7:53, Heb 2:2 6) Yahweh sends fire from Heaven to murder people.- Gen 19:24, 2 Kings 1:10,12 Jesus said this is from the wrong spirit and rebukes his disciples for asking to call fire from Heaven. Jesus says he came to save men’s lives not destroy them. -Luke 9:54-55 In Rev 13:3 we see that fire from Heaven is a sign of the beast so he would be worshipped. 7) Yahweh wants to make a name for himself on the earth by doing great signs and wonders which include, curses, plagues, famines, rape, killing of men women and children, poisoning the water supply, mass murder and every kind of terrorism. -Exodus 7-11 Jesus never tried to make a name for himself, he said his kingdom was not of this world and he came against every evil that was committed by Yahweh. - John 18:36 and All four Gospels. 8) Yahweh loves those that love him and hates those that disobey him. -Prov 8:17, Deut 28:15:68 God loves those that love him and loves those that hate him, Jesus calls this the perfection of God. -Luke 6:32, Matt 5:46 9) Yahweh sends rain on those that obey him and he sends drought on those that don’t. -Deut 28:23 God sends rain on the righteous and unrighteousness. -Matt 5;45 10) Yahweh returns evil for evil, an eye for an eye.- Lev 24:19-21 Jesus said do not return evil for evil or an eye for an eye but love your enemy. -Matt 5:38-40 11) Yahweh sends demonic murderous spirits. -1 Samuel 16:14-16, 23, 18:10, 19:9 Jesus casts out demonic spirits. -Matt 8:28-34, Mark 5:1-17 12) Yahweh curses people with famine.- Deut 11:16-17, 1 Kings 8:35-40, 2 Sam 21:1, Yahweh curses people with such famine that they eat their own children. -Lev 26:29, Deut 28:53-57 . Can you imagine anything more evil than that? Jesus feeds the hungry.- Matt 14:13-21 13) Yahweh oppresses.- Deut 28:20-22 Jesus frees the oppressed.- Luke 4:18 14) Yahweh steals, kills and destroys. - The Whole Old Testament Jesus heals, saves and restores.- whole New Testament 15) Yahweh fills us with the spirit of fear. The Whole Old Testament God does not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind.2 Tim 1:7 16) Yahweh is the god of this age/world. Jesus came to cast out the god of this age/world. If you are interested you can read the attached article and see how Church fathers through the ages have tried to wrestle with this problem. rdtwot.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/2cor-44.pdf Jesus is the express image of the invisible God. Everything Jesus said and did exposes us to the fact that yahweh is not God. Every time Jesus said “you have heard it said, but I say” he was quoting yahweh and directly contradicting him, showing us that yahweh was in fact the exact opposite of God. When I first started seeing this it was hard to process, but once you see it it’s even harder to unsee.

[@michaelcross2892]

Michael, who do you say Yahweh is?

[@TommyCosta]

The beautiful truth. It’s still vital to share the urgency of salvation now as the lake of fire will hurt but its purpose is to purify and lasts an age (unknown amount of time) but certainly not forever. Mistranslations have misled the masses. Aion means an age, think of eon.

[@colman_s]

Why do you say "certainly"? If it was certain, we wouldn't be arguing, no? I ask that humbly. I recognize KZbin comments can so frequently devolve into name calling, which I'm trying hard to avoid here.

[@TommyCosta]

@@colman_s Hi, I love your polite question and response. I say certainly because the Greek word aion simply means an age. I recommend a Young's literal translation of the Bible. Col 1:20 is one of many verses that mentions the reconciliation of all.

[@ttownsupreme2183]

@@TommyCosta Is there a full translation name to that translation or its just Youngs?

[@TommyCosta]

@@ttownsupreme2183 Young’s Literal Translation, YLT

[@ttownsupreme2183]

@@TommyCosta Thank you Tommy

[@simthiam3712]

To have an Eternal Hell installed , means that God want to "eternally punish" His children. But how could there be such a sadistic "Loving God" ? If God do ever need to set up such a place called Eternal Hell to "eternally torture" His children, then that only prove that God has failed. But how could God fail ? Nothing is impossible for God, n there is even hope beyond the grave. Salvation Beyond Death is possible.

[@glencullen9252]

Wow you just turned my world upside down I never saw Colossians 1:20 before in that light. A lot to process and work through now, not sure of the outcome.

[@ttownsupreme2183]

This is extremely based.

[@robertcalleja2348]

Like the bible which by the way was changed by the Roman empire when they took on the mantel of Christianity

[@ttownsupreme2183]

@@robertcalleja2348 Do you have evidence the Bible was changed by the Roman Empire

[@eekay5710]

Very true !

[@quadcannon95]

Marz is the best!

[@danielmark4869]

He used to make really good videos on faith related topics here on KZbin. I wish he'd make more but he seems to be too busy these days posting anti-vax conspiracy theory stuff on his facebook page.

[@edmaphis9805]

@@danielmark4869 Wow, I can't imagine why the vax is such a divisive issue.

[@danielmark4869]

@@edmaphis9805 We're 1st world people. We don't have real problems so we have to invent stupid problems. In the 3rd world people are grateful for vaccines and would love to have better access to them. We have easy access to them and everything else and nobody's old enough to remember the horrible diseases of the past that vaccines wiped out, so having to get a vacine just becomes another opportunity for us to bitch and complain which is what we 1st worlders do best.

[@cgs-nu9zf]

SOLID GOLD. If eternal torment is true then Baphomet is Sovereign and Sin is Sovereign

[@mementomori2540]

As a lifelong Catholic, I've always said that. If in the end evil claimed more souls in hell than good did in heaven, then Satan won the cosmic battle.

[@nihilnovumsubsole6334]

This is the style of preaching that makes you want to follow God of your own volition not because you feel obligated and coerced into doing so.

[@mementomori2540]

Imagine hearing the most positive take on eternal destiny from a Croatian rapper. Kudos brother

[@lc8491]

Spot on!

[@hermanusleroux7528]

Teaching in line with that of Mike Parsons and Fransois du Toit the latter did the Mirror Bible translation. Good stuff

[@89bavaro89]

Excellent! Where can I get that sweatshirt?

[@michaelj.frazee9043]

ETERNAL PUNISHMENT = FAILURE TO CORRECT Eternal punishment would mean that God's punishments were ineffective and that they didn't work, because "punishment" means "correction." The very purpose of punishment is to change for the better, so if God's punishments were eternal, then that would mean His punishments were an utter failure. In fact, so much about God is a failure when considering "eternal hell." The whole idea of eternal punishment means God either failed in His grand plan and didn' intend to, or He knew most of it would fail and just didn't care. Either way, it's completely at odds with "love never fails." (1 Corinthians 13:8)

[@danielmark4869]

It depends on your view of justice. If you have a restorative view of justice, which I take to be the correct view, then what you're saying is true. Punishment is for the purpose of correction to restore the offender to right thinking and right behaviour. But some people have a retributive view of justice where punishment has no purpose other than getting one's own back. It's the "justice" of revenge that cares only about making the one who hurt you suffer, the more the better. If that's one's understanding of "justice" then one wouldn't have a problem with Eternal Conscious Torment. One would probably even relish the idea of certain people being tortured forever. I would even say the retributive view of justice is the dominant view, especially in America. Why would you have the death penalty if your understanding of justice weren't retributive?

[@johnmeeks2799]

Why do you assume that all punishment is about correction? That's an unjustified assumption. When God gave people the death penalty, it was not about correction it was his judgement on sin. Hell is not about correction, it's God's judgment on wickedness!!

[@michaelj.frazee9043]

@@johnmeeks2799 Nope, because a God Who is LOVE can change even the most evil of hearts, into warm and loving children of God. Sounds to me like you've got alot of bitterness and pent up anger/resentment towards others who have wronged you in your past, and now you've acquired a vengeful spirit through it all, and you would love nothing more than to hear you're enemies writhe in agonizing pain and suffering for all of eternity. That's about as sick and perverted as it gets yo, and I hope & pray that you seek psychiatric care, the sooner the better! Grace and peace ✌️

[@lunarember5592]

Your point is great! I am happy to see other people think like me, but I would like to clarify more. An good example of why punishment means correction are our children, we don't punish our kids out of anger, we do punish them to teach them that what they did was wrong, this is because in some ocasions they don't get the gravity of the problem. In some situations the desire to punish comes from fear, like when someone kills another person we punish him for the reason of that we fear that he might do it again. In an community point of view, the concept of justice for ones actions makes more sense, the laws punish someone for doing something wrong to prevent others to make the same, this is not for the sake of each individual, but for the sake of the whole community.

[@DIBBY40]

@@johnmeeks2799 Jesus never gave anyone the death penalty.

[@robwagnon6578]

What I used to call it when people 'forced it' or tried to make a doctrine out of misunderstood scripture is; pushing the puzzle. Like when a kid is doing a puzzle and the puzzle piece doesn't quiet fit so you force it. Don't forget Revelations 21:4, after all punishment is done; And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the (these) former things are passed away....This does not mean~~oh except the bad people, no, NO MORE PAIN and ARE PASSED AWAY are all inclusive!!

[@eekay5710]

Revelation (like Daniel etc) was written to the people of Israel. All of that prophecies has been fulfilled at the cross. 70 AD.

[@robwagnon6578]

@@eekay5710 good grief, dispensationalist thinking, no that is not what the first chapter says, read it again and God tells who its for, and who can gain from it....

[@colman_s]

He says eternal torment wasn't present for the first 450 years of the church. Does anyone know why he uses that date? Something from the Council of Chalcedon? Something else?

[@DIBBY40]

There is a book by John Wesley Hanson called, " Universalism: The prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church during the first 500 years" . Written in 1899 it is still a great work of scholarship.

[@IsaacNussbaum]

The doctrine of Universalism ignores way too many Scriptures for my taste. Scriptures such as: ● They will die (Romans 8: 13). ● They will perish (John 3: 16). ● They will vanish (Psalms 37: 20). ● They will be no more (Psalms 104: 36). ● They will be destroyed (Matthew 10: 28). ● They will burn completely up (Luke 3: 17). ● They will be consumed (Hebrews 10: 26-27). ● They will be reduced to ashes (2 Peter 2: 6). ● They will be like smoke that vanishes (Psalms 68: 2). ● They will be like water that flows away (Psalms 58: 7).

[@bernardherron4532]

Yo go marz I love jesus

[@bernardherron4532]

Marz pleas keep going

[@lemnisgate8809]

Amen.

[@alibongo5545]

💚💚💚✨

[@davidpearson6741]

AMEN

[@johnyoung6254]

Hey Brother, I've been meditating on your thoughts and it brought out one of my own. I was taught that animal sacrifices atoned for sins because it would equate sin with death. My big question is. If these animals where an example of what sin does to us, why didn't God let them live a torturous life instead of being put to death?

[@dorinamary7863]

John Young How would living a torturous life atone for sin?

[@csgabriella5658]

May be putting to death to destroy their bodies? And who would guard the prison 4 ever? God did not want us to live 4 ever ín sín. I do not like the 1st one. Or to show us that loosing our body is loosing the possibilities 4 this life. Or this is just about the blood, as we learned. I am just thinking. What do you all think?

[@caroleevandyk5544]

⁠​⁠@@dorinamary7863That is John Young’s whole point dear. Torture DOESN’T atone for sin and God does not do this nor has eternal conscious torment OR annihilation in His plan for humanity.

[@dorinamary7863]

I'd like to hear his answer because I don't read that from him. I don't think sacrificing an animal or making it live a tortured life atones for sin.

[@perrychoate6691]

See Heb 9 and 10. Heb 9:9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings-external regulations applying until the time of the new order. We need to be clean on the inside and not just washed on the outside. Jesus did this. The animal sacrifices never took sin away, it was a temporary covering. Paul talked about this to Hebrews. The book of Hebrews speaks to the why the old covenant had to be replaced. Perry Choate

[@chambo8311]

This account is beautiful. This is the truth. Hell is a place of cleansing fire, given to us in life to teach us of the way to life. Hell is there, much like stern words of a mother worried about her child touching the stove, to prevent us from destroying our own LIVES. Even Christ himself had to journey to Hell before he could Ascend to Heaven. Much like Christ, we must all go through a personal hell in order to learn, grow, and be shaped into the person God wants us to be. Once we have learned our lessons and grown from our mistakes. We can be made perfect and whole in Christ. This alignment of becoming True, this is Heaven. Oneness with Christ and the Universe itself. Timeless and perfect peace. This process according to Swiss Psychologist Carl Jung is known as individuation. Or becoming what one is. This process is the essence of what it means to Live as the Lord intended.

[@robwagnon6578]

Amen again, when a doctrine was important the bible is NEVER ambiguous about it!

[@CelticVictory]

And being cast into hell for eternal punishment is something the Bible directly tells you will happen.

[@robwagnon6578]

@@CelticVictory no, you die second death. Who would serve a god who did that? Fear would not make me pretend it is okay.

[@CelticVictory]

@@robwagnon6578 The second death is simply another name for the same eternal place of suffering reserved for Satan and his demons. So, if you serve God, you do. It's not fear but reality.

[@alwaysadawg6488]

@@CelticVictory Jesus paid the price for our sins. If the price for sin is eternal torture, then Jesus would be undergoing eternal torture right now. Is Jesus undergoing torture? No. If you look at complete, literal translations of the original Greek text (most current translations have pretty big errors), you will see that afterlife punishment does not last forever.

[@charleshines2142]

When we die from eating from the Tree Of Knowledge is that the first death that we will all experience? I realize that Adam and Eve were the ones who ate the fruit. Is the fruit of the tree a metaphor for something else?

[@eekay5710]

Whatever went wrong thru the 1st Adam, are of no importance any longer. Jesus was sent as the LAST Adam to undo all the wrong that was done by the first Adam. You can compare the two Adams in Romans 5:12-21 The Tree of Good & Evil represents the law. And the law points to Christ. The Tree of Life is Christ and the entire human race are included in Christ!

[@tommywarren2178]

The word fire means p u r or p u r a what does that tell you

[@marylamb6063]

The Law of Moses reflected God's justice and nowhere is duration of punishment tied to justice. It's eye for eye and tooth for tooth. Torture was forbidden. No one was burned alive. There were no long prison sentences. Justice was dealt with immediately and it ended.

[@WaffleDragon]

I have been reading Joshua this week and found this verse interesting in that it really emphasizes that Achan was dead before they burned his body. 7:25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the Lord shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

[@dennisfarabee5216]

Simply put, G-d will do the right and best thing for every soul.

[@eekay5710]

Simply put. God alreády did the right and best thing for every soul by giving His only beloved Son just as Isaiah 53 have it.

[@caroleevandyk5544]

And what would the right and best thing for every soul be? If you are to believe Christianity, the right and best thing is ONLY an offer of reconciliation to God, but the individual must ACTIVATE the offer by contributing their consent or permission for God to do what He wants to do. And by an individual’s supremely power “free” will, they can easily overrule and overpower God’s will and damn themselves to THE MOST VICIOUS destiny imaginable. And we’re supposed to love and worship this god? No thanks, because he’s a psychotic idiot. Thanks be to the true God of accurately translated scripture that His plan for humanity is to lose NONE!

[@danielake1969]

Yahweh and Yeshua’s goal was not to condemn the world but to save it!!! To redeem it!!! And He wanted us to follow Him because of Him… but that dont mean there will be no punishment for evil!!

[@celruwethin2712]

I don't know what Bible he's reading, but just Matthew 25 alone speaks volume about this subject....."46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[@loleki737]

One thing that helped me to understand is that the death of Adam was spiritual, a separation from God the Father. Later, this spiritual death leads to physical death. All die. Christ came to cancel the spiritual separation from us to God. And He died and rose so that we may then die and raise to stand before Him. God is reconciled to all mankind. Most just don't understand it in this earthly life. These are encouraging messages, brother! Thank you.

[@rickdavies4801]

Where is Jesus in the book of Isaiah?Please help me find them

[@mhamadmhamad6337]

What about satan and demons where do they go

[@eekay5710]

Your question a year ago.. Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, WAS cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. NO human being will ever end up here, only those three: the Devil, the false prophet and the Beast.

[@eekay5710]

Jesus has dealt with the sin of the entire world as well as with Satan. Colossians 2:13-17 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, [14]having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. [15]Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. [16]So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, [17]which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

[@johnnyb3245]

what's your theory for the fate of satan?

[@caroleevandyk5544]

How about this? Colossians 1:20 says God will be reconciling EVERYTHING in heaven and EVERYTHING on earth to Himself, having made peace through the blood of Christ.

[@EdwinDekker71]

Revelation 14:11 KJV - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

[@tommywarren4633]

What he has on his shirt , it's what the Christian Church taught for the 1st 450 years the first place you can look for that word is where Peter taught it acts 3 21, the restitution of all things that is exactly what the apostle Paul taught, the good news, he'll came to Us by way of the Latin Vulgate and Augustine who insisted that the church teaching as doctrine, but even Augustine himself said we told these people what we knew,to be lies, threatening them with an eternal hell was the only way to keep the Masses in line

[@demonicaxeman7264]

Many Christians I have debated with over the years refer to C.S Lewis than the Bible to preach about eternal torment in Hell, which I find strange. I come to the conclusion that because Lewis gives into the Christian narrative on Hell more than the Bible itself. Because he is their legendary Christian hero, they found a "reference" to keep the narrative.

[@caroleevandyk5544]

Actually, it would appear that C. S. Lewis couldn’t stomach the idea of eternal conscious torment either, as his book The Great Divorce is an allegory of hell that does not show the typical Christian picture of hell, but rather a place where people are so self-centred, they just live perpetually unto themselves and pull away from all others. It’s a brilliant expose of human nature, but Lewis did not know who God really is nor did He understand God’s plan for humanity.

[@robwagnon6578]

Amen, Yet you and I are the ones who are mocked in most of the christian community!!

[@eekay5710]

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (The Second Death is not to distract from the 'once and for all death' that Jesus died, but to endorse it. In the lake of fire, Death and Hades are eradicated from memory. The first death is the 'once and for all death' that Jesus died, representing the global death of humankind. Jesus' death took mankind's death in Adam out of the equation. [Heb 9:27,28; 2Cor 5:14-17]. The idea of the Second Death has to do with the fact that the revelation of everyone’s inclusion in the death of Jesus, has not yet dawned on some - so it will take a crisis, often, their own death, to immediately engage them with the symbolic cleansing [from their unbelief] represented by the lake of burning sulphur, purifying like in a furnace, separating the gold from the dross-mindsets. Rev 2:11 + Rev 20:6 The Mirror Study Bible.

[@caroleevandyk5544]

Boy, ain’t that the truth! God has graciously revealed Himself to those He has chosen from before the disruption of the world and showed us His marvellous plan for all of humanity and that He will lose NONE of what He has created. But we’re the stupid heretics who have been lead astray and the hell defenders and annihilationists insist they are the experts on who God is and what is His plan for humanity, which is to lose a huge chunk of what He has created. Nice god.

[@ashingone8483]

If there is a Doom than I'm the Doom slayer.

[@caelachyt]

The universalist view is just as deadly as the ECT view. Both urge persons to not accept Christ and both render God a liar. It is as simple as the choice given Adam; chose life, or choose death.

[@eekay5710]

You still see wrong.

[@caelachyt]

@@eekay5710 I see what's there, not made up lies.

[@eekay5710]

@@caelachyt Rom 5:12-21

[@caelachyt]

@@eekay5710 Yeah, belief in Christ saves. We know that.

[@JTomas96]

@@caelachytExactly, you truly don't see it: He didn't mean that, he meant: "as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."Rom5:18 Read it in greek, it's inexcusable. There's no verbs, oly EIS(FORCED) and the same structure. JUST LIKE YOU ARE FORCED TO INHERIT ADAM'S SIN, YOU ARE FORCE TO INHERIT JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE. "....THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE, THIS COMMAND AND TEACH"1Tim4:10-11 (Those who believe have greater salvation and partake in the millenium) Also you willingly ignore 1Pet4:6 which talks about postmortem salvation. Notice "so they live IN SPIRIT". Death is just a banishment: "For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His BANISHED ONES are not expelled from Him."2sam14:14 ------------------ The wages of sin IS DEATH: "...Christ Jesus, who abolished death..."2tim1:10 "...The last enemy to be abolished is death..." 1Cor15 ---> That verb to abolished is Katargeo as in: "....she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she IS FREE from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man." IT'S ABOUT RELEASING THE CAPTIVES. WOE TO YOU! YOU SAY: BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY "THE SIN OF SOME"! "FATHER FORGIVE "SOME OF THEM" AND WE HAVE SEEN AND TESTIFIY THAT GOD HAS SENT HIS SON TO BE "THE SAVIOR OF SOME" HE SAVES OF THE WROLD! AS IN "AND HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. That propitiation word means the sacrifice provided to apease the wrath of a divinity.

[@champpit1]

You can thank the Greeks for that hell concept.

[@finnal6748]

No way to prove air exists as it is invisible But trust it does

[@finnal6748]

From volcanoes The uncontrollable Creator Above Of The Rainbow Set In The Clouds Shows unstoppable by the created He Is Even by the created angels or fully spiritual beings which are not seen but are here Even by the fallen fully spiritual beings called demons here invisible too The One Creator Of All shows unstoppable He is by anything created ever

[@tommywarren4633]

If you want the true gospel in a nutshellif you can find it in 2nd Corinthians 5:18 to 19 among many other scriptures, such as 1st Timothy 410, John 12:32 John 1:29 exedra exedra

[@tommywarren4633]

For the first 450 years the church talk what that guy has on his shirt the apothesis which is what Peter told in Acts 3:21 that's exactly what it means the same thing Paul taught if you will read Romans chapter 5 and then read Romans chapter 9 through 11 without going to any other scriptures you will see that Paul very plainly for the universalist he said the same thing in 1st Corinthians chapter 15 verses 22-28 he said the same thing in 1st Timothy 4 9 through 11 the Jesus is the savior of all people especially those that believe John. said the same thing in the book of John and in the books of first John the Jesus is the savior of the cosmos the world

[@p-0h0h_HolyPriestKingforJESUS]

Well, everyone, the bible doesn't really show eternal conscious torment but, only for certain groups like those who take the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:10-11), the devil, the beast and the false prophet (Revelation 20:10) and possibly the goats who didn't help the least of Jesus' brothers and sisters (Matthew 25:41-46) depending what is meant by eternal punishment. Now, depending on what is meant by eternal fire in Matthew 25:41 it may well be eternal conscious torment for all unrepentant sinners or just those groups I mentioned but I'm not sure. God is good!

[@chadpugh443]

What about weeping and gnashing of teeth? What about torment day and night? Where do the wicked go then?

[@perrychoate6691]

I wrote a paper and a powerpoint on this topic that includes your question. I can email you if you desire those two items I wrote that will help.

[@CelticVictory]

A person can only claim this if they discount near death experiences. I personally believe that many of them are legitimate and are people who temporarily crossed over to the other side. Many have reported hell experiences.

[@josephpe90]

And many of them were they’re own conscious making their own idea of hell.. also, most of the hell NDEs are people with severe things in the physical word like addiction.. ask any drug addict and they will tell you what hell really is.

[@dancingghostgirl2291]

@@josephpe90 satan can give these visions

[@dancingghostgirl2291]

@@orion7675 it's SUPOSED to be eternal It makes no sense and it wobt hurt to throw this out there, there's proof in the bible that the wicked wobt burn for eternity The Romans came up with eternal hell to scare ppl and it made its way to the bible The bible was mistranslated.

[@caroleevandyk5544]

@@Universal_MystikIt is NOT eternal, the corrective punishment is for an age, or eon and it is designed to bring the individual into a proper appreciation of who God is, in order that they might be reconciled to God, as MANY scriptures indicate. The god that Christianity presents to the world is a caricature of the true God of accurately translated scripture. Many popular English bibles frequently say “forever and ever”. Please tell me how many forevers there are? That shows you what a ridiculous translation this is. It does not correspond with the original Greek at all.

[@charleshines7282]

The doctrine of eternal Hell is just from mistranslations of the original Greek texts of The Bible. Think about it, forcing endless suffering on almost every soul would not be merciful or loving or caring by any stretch of the imagination!! We just need correction for being such sinners in the eyes of God. I do not think for even a split second that Jesus meant to scare us with threats of eternal suffering. He just wants to correct us for the things we have done and he also wants us to come to him and not be afraid of him and feeling as if we need to dread the moment when we all go to see him. The reason he will judge us is to determine what needs correction. Make no mistake, the correction is not something to look foreword to but without it we can not eventually be with God.

[@eekay5710]

The cross of Jesus has made everything new and fresh. Everything means nothing excluded. The Father has dealt with the sin of the world by giving His only beloved Son. It has been taken AWAY with the promise to never think of that ever again! Jesus has come for more than one reason. One was to correct our souls, our thoughts, as we all have been hipnotized by the fall of Adam. We forgot the Rock we were hewn and therefore need to awake from the deep sleep Adam has put mankind into. Matt 18:11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. -thát, not who. It indeéd is only truth that sets us free from all the lies we believe of who Gód is and us in Christ. Hebrews 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Christ’s Death Perfects the Sanctified Col 1:26,27 'the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in (ín!) you, the hope of glory! John 14:20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. John 17:20-23 'I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me'. The New Covenant.. Oneness, included in the life of the Trinity (always have been and always will be), boldness and loved. Our focused should be the indwelling Christ, not sin or an unworthiness. Father is Son-conscious, not sin. We need to renew our minds as Rom 12:2 says. Blessings!

[@eekay5710]

Look at the cross of Jesus to see God’s judgment. IT IS FINISHED!

[@ricoyochanan]

Rev_14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is never quenched.

[@michaelandrews8348]

Even without the bible to back what he is saying up, the idea of ECT weakens God, if one thinks God is all powerful. Basically the idea of Eternal Conscious Torment is saying that God is not truly all powerful as being such would mean that God has the power to stop ECT. Why do believers in ECT seem so willing to weaken God in such a way, thinking that He can't do anything about the souls being tortured eternally? It also makes him look like an abusive parent to those who considered his children. What loving parent willing punishes their children for an undetermined amount of time? There is no benefit for either parent or children in such a situation.

[@robertcalleja2348]

Read the gospel of Mary Madeline Jesus speaks about ?

[@davidjohnson4298]

I was always afraid to disagree with eternal torment so I served God out of fear not love I have suffered fear for yrs but one day I questioned and was honest with God and said why do you have to torture people forever ?

[@IsaacNussbaum]

*"...why do you have to torture people forever?"* As you correctly concluded, He doesn't. ● The unsaved will die (Romans 8: 13). ● They will perish (John 3: 16). ● They will vanish (Psalms 37: 20). ● They will be no more (Psalms 104: 36). ● They will be destroyed (Matthew 10: 28). ● They will burn completely up (Luke 3: 17). ● They will be consumed (Hebrews 10: 26-27). ● They will be reduced to ashes (2 Peter 2: 6). ● They will be like smoke that vanishes (Psalms 68: 2). ● They will be like water that flows away (Psalms 58: 7).

[@OrigenisAdamantios]

Aionion purgation. Not “ECT”!

[@NilsWeber-mb5hg]

Matthew 25:46

[@marylamb6063]

If the unsaved are punished forever, then they too have eternal life. Nowhere does it say in the Bible that the unsaved have eternal life. Eternal life is a gift to those who believe that Christ died for them.

[@NilsWeber-mb5hg]

@@marylamb6063 Eternal life =/= immortality

[@eekay5710]

​@@marylamb6063 John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

[@eekay5710]

​@@marylamb6063 We might see people as unsaved, but not from the Father's point of view. He only look at the finished work of Jesus at the cross and sees all of us wrapped up in Christ, whether people believe this eternal truth or not. Up to this date there are millions of Jews who do not believe in Jesus, also the Moslem people, let alone millions of people who want to hear nothing of "Jesus". None of them will ever be punished, as all punishment came on the Lamb of God. IT IS FINISHED! The message of reconciliation was given to us, not any other message. Father has reconciled the WORLD with Himself and is since then in His eternal rest. His desire is that we enter His rest as well and this we can only do once we come to the knowledge of the truth of the cross. Rom 3:23 - OT Rom 3:24 - NT Rom 5:12-21 God bless!

[@Travsvisionchannel]

Another youtuber said the same... unlearn the lies-truth about hell

[@mikeflair6800]

There is no such thing as 'hell and the ring of fire', and we are not subject to eternal torment. That being said, there is no such thing as heaven, there are no angels, there is no wonderful after-life. Our life ends when we die on earth. It is that simple folks.

[@caroleevandyk5544]

Well, if you’re right, we’ll never know, cuz we’ll be dead. But l suspect it’s a whole lot more wonderful than that.

[@user-ks5iq1lf7f]

God is more holy than we will ever know Matthew 25:46=And these will go away into ETERNAL PUNISHMENT , but the righteous into eternal life.”

[@williamlorimer8927]

Wrong, "will go into age abiding correction" . Is the proper translation

[@zoro9250]

I thought it is eternal punishment according to the bible: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Matthew 25:41 “Then they will go away to ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous to ETERNAL life.” - Matthew 25:46

[@eekay5710]

Matthew is still Old Test, as Jesus was born under the law to fulfil it on the Jewish people's behalf. The New starts with Acts 2, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The message of reconciliation was given to us, not a message which put people in fear or uncertainty.

[@JTomas96]

@@eekay5710 @zoro9250 Hey brother I see you confused on this. The thing here is the word for eternal is a mistranslation. It means A PERISHABLE LONG TIME SET BY GOD/JUDGE. FOR EXAMPLE: "Who promised before times began" He promised it in eternity, the literal translation is "Before times Aionios" in other words, "Before Perishable Times set by God". --------------------------------- Some examples: "And be not conformed to this ETERNITY(?): but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind" "cities that suffered the judgement of ETERNAL fire(?)" "the wisdom of THIS ETERNITY(?) is foolishness to God" "but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either IN THIS ETERNITY or in THE ETERNITY TO COME(?)" "So it will be at the end of the ETERNITY(?); the angels will..." "and the cares OF THIS ETERNITY(?), the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful" SO PROPHETS PROPHECY BEFORE ETERNITY? BEFORE ADAM? "As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the ETERNITY(?) began," “The sons of THIS ETERNITY(?) marry and are given in marriage." We conclude Aion means Eon, the english word Eon does actually come from Aion by the way. ----------------- The wages of Sin is DEATH: "Who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" "The last enemy to be abolished is death" ---- People saved postmortem: "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, BUT LIVE according to God in the spirit."1Pt4:6 "For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His BANISHED ones are not expelled from Him."2Sam14:14 (The dead are just BANISHED from His presence until the times of reconciliation).

[@JTomas96]

The word for eternal is a mistranslation. It means A PERISHABLE LONG TIME SET BY GOD/JUDGE. FOR EXAMPLE: "Who promised before times began" He promised it in eternity, the literal translation is "Before times Aionios" in other words, "Before Perishable Times set by God". --------------------------------- Some examples: "And be not conformed to this ETERNITY(?): but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind" "cities that suffered the judgement of ETERNAL fire(?)" "the wisdom of THIS ETERNITY(?) is foolishness to God" "but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either IN THIS ETERNITY or in THE ETERNITY TO COME(?)" "So it will be at the end of the ETERNITY(?); the angels will..." "and the cares OF THIS ETERNITY(?), the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful" SO PROPHETS PROPHECY BEFORE ETERNITY? BEFORE ADAM? "As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the ETERNITY(?) began," “The sons of THIS ETERNITY(?) marry and are given in marriage." We conclude Aion means Eon, the english word Eon does actually come from Aion by the way. You say "This is the lamb of God that takes away the sin of some" Oh wait, that's not the gospel: "THIS IS THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" ----------------- The wages of Sin is DEATH: "Who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" "The last enemy to be abolished is death" ---- People saved postmortem: "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, BUT LIVE according to God in the spirit."1Pt4:6 "For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His BANISHED ones are not expelled from Him."2Sam14:14 (The dead are just BANISHED from His presence until the times of reconciliation).

[@Birdylockso]

In the Old Testament, God wipes out a people, because he is just, which is a concept that we may not agree with, using our definition. It still doesn't mean we should assume that God is all loving without preparing a hell. Justice and mercy are both important, and the way of understanding is through the Scriptures, not our frail logic. Jesus: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Mat 25:46) To me, Jesus may not have called it "hell," but judgment and punishment would no doubt be there.

[@eekay5710]

In the OT it seems as if God is cruel, if He's in the killing business, but scripture clearly says 'Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever'. Hebrews 13:8 If God is love, then God is love. Jesus is God. He and the Father is One. He was concealed in the Old, and revealed in the New. Genesis 2:21 'And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place'. Nowhere in the OT do we read that God awakened Adam. Could it be that all of the OT was only a dream, a nightmare 🤔 Then scripture says in Hosea 6:2 'After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His sight'. 2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. God is outside time, as He is eternal. Aren't we now in the 3rd day of His/our ascending? 1,000 years = one day. One day = 1,000 years. We all were included in the cross-events of Jesus as the LAST Adam! Eph 2:5,6 + Col 2:12,13 Also 2Tim 2:11 Adam has brought the entire human race into a deep sleep, as the seed are in the men. However direct after his fall (into a fallen mindset) the Seed to come, was promised. Christ is the Seed. Gen 3:15 'And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel'. (Referring to the cross where Jesus will deal with the Satan). Eph 5:14 Therefore He says: 'Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light'. Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you. Hear the words of Jesus.. Matthew 11:28-30 'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light'. Surely God our Father cannot be cruel with a nature like this?

[@eekay5710]

Matthew is still Old Test as Jesus was born under the law to fulfil it on the Jewish people's behalf. The New Test starts with Acts 2, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Look at the cross of Jesus to see all judgement and punishment. IT IS FINISHED! Jesus is the Firstborn among the dead, and we who live after the cross, are included. However millions of Christian believers are still unaware of this eternal truth.

[@kathyern861]

Revelation chapter 20 (ESV) 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. OKAY - here we have a place called Hades, which is the Greek word for hell. Everyone in that place is removed, their bodies resurrected, and in their reconstituted state of being - they are sentenced by Jesus the judge - the sentence is the Lake of Fire - then - since hell is empty - it too is tossed into the Lake of Fire. Hell is real - and it is a temporary place. The Lake of Fire is a permanent place - when people hit the Lake of Fire in soul/spirit/body - they are consumed - as in they no longer exist. It is a place of everlasting punishment - really everlasting banishment from the presence of God. The LORD God creates the soul/spirit/body human from nothing - and He has the power to return the human being to nothing.

[@brettfaryniarz581]

The Lake of Fire is the 2nd death. The wicked are burned up and not forced to spend eternity with God. The bible is clear that the wicked perish, are burned up, are no more, are destroyed, die a 2nd death. God grants the righteous eternal life. He does not keep people alive forever in torment. I agree. But how does everyone become saved when the scriptures talk about the fate of the unrighteous being destroyed, burned up, perish, 2nd death... there are so many scriptures to overcome by simply applying a few that suggest universalism. I would love to believe this but I do not see how this is possible.

[@johndalton1043]

If you are searching, then the word for "perished" also means "lost and destroyed" in Koine Greek. These words can be used interchangeably. The prodigal son is lost/perished/destroyed until he returns to his father. A lady loses a coin, that coin is lost/perished/destroyed until she actively seek to find it. The Good Shepherd will actively seek the lost/perished/destroyed sheep until He finds it. In each of these parables, that which is lost/perished/destroyed is not the end of the story.

[@dalecampbell5617]

I don't understand why God would resurrect the lost, give them life, only to judge them and then annihilate them. Why not leave the lost dead if there's no chance of correction/repentance/purification? Why have 2 resurrections? Do you truly believe that God, being all powerful, all loving and all knowing, knowing the beginning to the end, is going to allow himself to lose most of mankind to a spirit being that he created? Do you believe that Satan somehow has the power and ability to put a time limit on God's work? As if God can't reach/offer his salvation from eternal death to the lost beyond the grave because Satan won't allow it, or because it's too late??? Mainstream Christianity believes that Adam is more powerful than Jesus. Adam's actions gave death to all of mankind and yet the actions of Jesus only saves a few; Paul wrote, for as in Adam ALL die, so as in Christ ALL will be made alive. Also Hebrews 9:27 says, for it is for man to die ONCE and then face judgment. The second death in God's divine lake of purifying fire is the death of the carnal mind. It's what Paul mentions in 1Corinthians 3: 12-15.

[@eekay5710]

​@@dalecampbell5617 God alreády has included all of us in His cross-events. His death, became ours, His resurrection, ours.. and His ascending to the Father, ours. Colossians 2:9-15 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. Not Legalism but Christ In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Satan: 'Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it'. -also Eph 2:5,6 + 2Tim 2:11

[@eekay5710]

​@@dalecampbell5617 All judgement came on the Lamb of God. IT IS FINISHED! Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

[@eekay5710]

​@@dalecampbell5617 Adam, our old nature, has been nailed to the cross. God our Father has imbedded the very nature of Christ in is. 1Cor 2:16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

[@christ7957]

I'm already a believer in Christian Universalism and I believe everything he said is true. But he failed to mention evidence as to why Hell is a lie!!! He should've mentioned that Hell and eternal torment are MIStranslations from the Bible's original languages!!!

[@KSSBG]

Like to explain Matthew 25 46? Just curious.... honestly

[@eekay5710]

Re Chris.. Although the word does appear in the Bible, it only was brought in during the time churches decided to have more control over people (fear;💰). That was the perception of many in those day, but the word 'hell' is definitely translated wrong. The most common words that are used, are the Hebrew word Sheol & the Greek word Gehenna, Tartaro & Hades. Sometimes Abussos are also used as ref to 'hell'. SHEOL - this word is mostly used in the OT where 'hell' could be interpretated, but it is only refers to the 'place' where everybody who dies, go. Temporary, only where the bodies were put in 'rest', nót a place of eternal punishment of any negative scare thought. We can also call this place the grave. People of faith in the Old Test like king David (Ps 49:16 and 88:4), Jacob/Israel (Gen 37:35) and Hiskia (Jes 38:10) knew they were going to this 'place of rest', the grave). Súrely these 3 men never would ended up in the so-called' hell' as we have it in our thoughts! HADES simply means 'not to see'. Spiritual blindness. Jesus in John 9 to the Pharisees & the man born blind.

[@eekay5710]

​@@KSSBG Matthew 25:46 'And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life'. Jesus was born under the law to fulfil it on the Jewish people's behalf. The New Test starts with Acts 2, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Also, the gospels were wrote to the people of Israel, as Jesus has come to His own, but His own received Him not (did not recognised there Messiah). Rom 3:23 - OT Rom 3:24 - NT Paul had a long conversation up to Rom 3:23 when he wrote the letter of Romans, we therefore can read this powerful letter from Rom 3:24 Study Rom 5:12-21 for the two Adam's.

[@christ7957]

@@eekay5710 Yes I know basically everything you said here. i'm just saying the he could've mentioned the evidence for the sake of those who are new to this teaching.

[@christ7957]

@@eekay5710 I see your a HELL and Eternal Torture believer!!! Let me tell you, I've done my homework, so there's not a THING you can tell me to make me go back to my old beliefs!!!

[@infj-tadvocatepersonality5730]

The old testament doesn't mention hell? It's mentioned tons of times in the old testament. This guy 👆👆 is wrong. "For a fire is kindled in My anger, And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains." (Deuteronomy 32:22) " The wicked shall be turned into hell, And all the nations that forget God." (Psalm 9:17) "Let death seize them; Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them." (Psalm 55:15) "If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there." (Psalm 139:8) "But he does not know that the dead are there, That her guests are in the depths of hell.' (Proverbs 9:18) "hell and Destruction are before the Lord; So how much more the hearts of the sons of men." (Proverbs 15:11) "24 The way of life winds upward for the wise, That he may turn away from hell below." (Proverbs 15:24) "You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell." (Proverbs 23:14) " “hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations." (Isaiah 14:9)

[@EmeraldPixelGamingEPG]

Lamentations 3:31-33 31 For the Lord will not cast off forever. 32 For though he causes grief, yet he will have compassion according to the multitude of his loving kindnesses. 33 For he does not afflict willingly, nor grieve the children of men. And if you bother to give me that "context: he was talking about Israel" stuff in response, prove it.

[@ttownsupreme2183]

The word hell is a substituted word its not even translated.Sheol,The Pit,The Grave are all the actual meanings of "hell" in the OT...."Hell" as a place of fiery unending torment is not a concept in Jewish culture

[@ros6111]

By quoting all that, only shows your ignorance. It's all wrong. It's just King James "translating". It's a joke.

[@ros6111]

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: "NOWHERE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS SHEOL DESCRIBED AS A PLACE OF TORMENT OR PUNISHMENT." There is no mention of any "hell" OR ANY POSSIBILITY OF SUFFERING AFTER DEATH anywhere in the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament. When and how did the concept of the immortality of the soul enter the world of Christianity? THE OLD TESTAMENT DOES NOT TEACH IT. Plato (428-348 B.C.), the Greek philosopher and student of Socrates, taught that the body and the "immortal soul" separate at death. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia comments on ancient Israel's view of the soul: "We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. SUCH AN IDEA IS UTTERLY CONTRARY TO THE ISRAELITE CONSCIOUSNESS and IS NOWHERE FOUND IN THE OLD TESTAMENT" (1960, Vol. 2, p. 812, "Death").

[@linusweber9682]

I see Universal Reconcilation absolutely possible. However, for that all men must repent.

[@eekay5710]

REPENT of what 🤔 How can a forgiven person ask for forgiveness ? What is there to 'repent' of if Jesus already took AWAY the sin of the entire world, with the promise never to think of that ever again 🤔 John 1:29 +3:16,17 Hebrews 8:12 + 10:17 for the promises. 1John 3:5 'And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin'. 1John 2:12 I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake. Do you really believe that if any person 'repent' of his sin and Jesus appears.. then that deed of repentance will save him .. in other words it's the finished work of Jesus at the cross, plus my little contribution ? Confess means 'to say the same thing'. If Gód says I'm forgive, then I ám forgiven, and that settles it. He cannot lie, I therefore agree with His words. It's called righteousness by faith, not mý Faith, but Hís! REPENT simply means to change the way you think about who Gód is and us in Christ. It also means to agree with the words in the New Cov, starting with Acts 2 the outporing of the Holy Spirit. Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Isaiah 53:4-6,10 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. [5]But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. [6]All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. [10]Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed*, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. *us

[@JTomas96]

The wages of Sin is DEATH: "Who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" "The last enemy to be abolished is death" ---- People saved postmortem: "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, BUT LIVE according to God in the spirit."1Pt4:6 "For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His BANISHED ones are not expelled from Him."2Sam14:14 (The dead are just BANISHED from His presence until the times of reconciliation).

[@eekay5710]

Yes, the fire indeéd is the love of God ! People have a fear of hell and "accept Jesus" to not go there once they die. But this is not the good news of Jesus. Also, are His mercy and grace only for those who accepted Him ? The New Covenant is solely between the Father and the Son. The Father sees only the success of the cross and He sees us ALL wrapped up in Christ, just as ALL have been included in the fall of Adam ! Just as none of us were at present when Adam fall or had any choice, so the same when Jesus was sent as the LAST Adam to undo all the wrong that was done in Adam. Rom 5:12-21 The fall of Adam was a falling away in a fallen mindset. We forgot the Rock we were hewn. That's why the Bible speaks of AWAKE.

[@infj-tadvocatepersonality5730]

The following two parts of scripture say exactly the same thing. If we can't see that Revelation 14 says the same thing as Matthew 25:41-46 then we are in ignorance. Both pieces of scripture interrupt each other: (Revelation 14:9-11) Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” (Matthew 25:41-46) “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” God does not take pleasure in destroying the wicked because he loves them, but he allows them to be in torment because of their choices by not trusting in his love for them. Just because he doesn't take pleasure in it, it doesn't mean he will not allow them to be in torment forever. By the way, torment is different than torture. The lake of fire will be torture, (physical pain in fire), but the grave or the place of torment and consciousness separated from God in darkness forever is different. Torment is a person's judgment while awaiting the bema seat of Christ to be thrown into the lake of Fire which is the final judgment and destruction. But there's no telling how long that will be before they get destroyed, so either way God is going to allow them to be in torment for thousands of years, or for millions of years, or for hundreds of years depending on whatever he choose to do. What about these verses? 👇👇👇 Luke 16:23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." Matthew 13:49-50 " So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 25:41-46 "“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” I love you through Jesus. I do, but you are deceived somehow, brother. Please pray on these things and consider all I've said. 🤞🤞🙏

[@dorinamary7863]

How do those scriptures prove eternal torment?

[@josephbelcher8990]

Read Matthew 18:23-35

[@dorinamary7863]

@@josephbelcher8990 That scripture actually says it is temporal, not eternal. He was turned over to the jailers "until he had paid his debt", not forever after he had paid it.

[@josephbelcher8990]

@@dorinamary7863 that is my thought also,punishment but not eternal

[@KSSBG]

@@dorinamary7863 explain Matthew 25 46 please. It literally says eternal

[@francislando6160]

I don’t think so

[@tommywarren2178]

The word fire actually means pure p u r if I can see it's the lake of pure God's purification Lake our God is a consuming fire what does he consume in 1st Corinthians 3 11 through 15 he tells you very plainly what he consumes the wood hay and stubble that is the sinfulness of man will be consumed and only Purity is left purified by the fire salted by the fire Brimstone Sulphur is used to separate the d r o s s from the precious metals

[@tommywarren4633]

If you want the true gospel in a nutshell,

[@johnmeeks2799]

How can Jesus make it anymore clear! “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:45‭-‬46 NIV If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. Mark 9:43 NIV “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ” Luke 16:19‭- NIV

[@ttownsupreme2183]

Why would Abraham say for the Rich Mans brothers to Moses and the Prophets?How would they prevent the 5 brothers from coming to a place of torment...Abraham lived 430 years before the law...how would he know about Moses.... I don't believe the Rich Man and Lazarus is a real story

[@eekay5710]

Re John.. Jesus was born under the law to fulfil it on the Jewish people's behalf. Still Old Test. The New starts with Acts 2 the outporing of the Holy Spirit. You need to read the letters of Paul as He received revelation knowledge direct from Jesus Christ. Btw, he did not wrote Hebrews. Both Hebrews and Revelation were written to the Israelites and have been brought into fulfilling at the cross of Jesus. 70AD to be precised. IT IS FINISHED!

[@eekay5710]

Re John.. The parable in Luke 16:19-31 is a hidden message and cannot be understand literally. The people of Israel were "the rich man" as they had the law, the prophets and the prophecies. The beggar represents the gentiles who had nothing of that richness, as they were not "the house of Israel", but were only brought into Christ at the cross.

[@johnmeeks2799]

@Ttown Supreme Can you name one parable where it uses proper names instead of general phrases like, "There was once a man".? Why would Jesus use proper names and make it seem like a real story and intentionally mislead us? What makes you think Abraham didn't know what's going on in the present world?

[@eekay5710]

Matthew 25:45:46 was befóre the cross, still OT. The audience of Jesus was 'the house of Israel', not us living after the cross. John 1:11 'He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him'. The message of reconciliation was given to us. Col 1:18-23 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight - if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul..

[@patricj951]

I am not a believer in universalism. The bible tells a lot of the fate of the lost. God's option to the first man was life or death. And it is still the same. If you believe you have eternal life. If you DON'T believe, you have NOT. But universalists like in this video excellently explain the severe problem with the portraying of God's character according to ECT-doctrine. A common statement by ECT-believers is: "- hell is so horrible place that you would not wish your worst enemy to get there!" But God want to put billions of people there? The traditional hell doctrine starkly is contrary to the loving Father Jesus described for us. Who would like to torture someone for endless times if he could? Yes, satan! He is the sadist of sadists. The God of ECT: "Hitler on stereoids": spot on! A big problem is the very word "hell". As mentioned in this video: Jesus never talked about hell! The word is not even to find in the original text. The doctrine of the immortal soul and hell derive from greek mythology, and not the bible. As long as the word hell is used in the christian vocabulary the delusion and confusion will not end. We need to totally reject the word hell, and use the biblical terms instead. Traditionalism and universalism share the idea that the soul is unconditionally immortal. Conditionalism and universalism share the idea that God is good and will eventually end all evil and suffering. Traditionalism is alone to portray God as a sadist who will never get rid of evil and suffering.

[@eekay5710]

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (The Second Death is not to distract from the 'once and for all death' that Jesus died, but to endorse it. In the lake of fire, Death and Hades are eradicated from memory. The first death is the 'once and for all death' that Jesus died, representing the global death of humankind. Jesus' death took mankind's death in Adam out of the equation. [Heb 9:27,28; 2Cor 5:14-17]. The idea of the Second Death has to do with the fact that the revelation of everyone’s inclusion in the death of Jesus, has not yet dawned on some - so it will take a crisis, often, their own death, to immediately engage them with the symbolic cleansing [from their unbelief] represented by the lake of burning sulphur, purifying like in a furnace, separating the gold from the dross-mindsets. Rev 2:11 + Rev 20:6 The Mirror Study Bible.

[@Mike-qt7jp]

Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The word eternal in the above verse is the Greek word aiōnion, it means eternal. In Revelation 14:11 it says, "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be NO REST DAY OR NIGHT for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” In Revelation 20 we find this, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER... Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. In Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. In Daniel 12:2, “…and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth (the dead) shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” The words everlasting in this verse come from the Greek word ō-w-lām. It means eternal. You say only God is eternal, yes with no beginning, BUT God Himself promises eternal life to all who will trust in Jesus. AND as the scriptures above prove, He promises eternal suffering to all who refuse Christ. The soul that sin shall surely die; this is a reference to the second death, which the Bible clearly says is the Lake of Fire. AND again, as stated above involves eternal "torment." You are right when you say ONLY those who trust in Christ will receive eternal life, but those who reject Christ will receive their reward; eternal suffering in the Lake of fire. Would a God of Love send the unrepentant sinner to hell? In Hebrews 10:26-36 it says, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God...For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." You said that their smoke rises forever and NOT their torment, but you know that is not true, it says, "the smoke OF THEIR TORMENT rises forever." You say death in the bible means a state of unconsciousness. Not according to Jesus. He talks of Lazarus and the rich man dying and both lift up their eyes and find themselves in a state of FULL consciousness. Lazarus in Abraham's Bosom, BUT the rich man, by his own words in torment in flames. You also said the person who dies isn't aware of anything, the rich man in flames said, "Father Abraham, send Lazarus over to me that he might dip his finger in water and touch the tip of my tongue for I am in torment in these flames." Look, I wish there was no eternal Hell, it breaks my heart to think of people going there for eternity (i have family and friends who have not come to christ) but the Bible as I have demonstrated above has a lot to say about ETERNAL punishment in the Lake of Fire. Think of the story of Uzzah. God had told the Israelites to move the Ark of the Covenant. They were instructed to put it on an oxcart and move it to a particular location. God earlier had stated that "No one but the Levites were allowed to EVER touch the Ark." Well in this particular Bible account, the ox stumbled and the cart tipped and the Ark was about to fall, BUT Uzzah WHO was NOT a Levite, reached out his hand and saved the Ark from possible damage. Did God commend Uzzah for saving the Ark? NO! the Bible says, "The anger of God flared up and killed Uzzah on the spot." The moral of the story; God wants us to obey HIS WORD, and not do or believe what we think is right. Re-read the above verses and ask yourself, do these really say God will not let the person who rejects Christ suffer in hell, but will simply put them out of existence?

[@JTomas96]

It means A PERISHABLE LONG TIME SET BY GOD/JUDGE. FOR EXAMPLE: "Who promised before times began" He promised it in eternity, the literal translation is "Before times Aionios" in other words, "Before Perishable Times set by God". --------------------------------- Some examples: "And be not conformed to this ETERNITY(?): but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind" "cities that suffered the judgement of ETERNAL fire(?)" "the wisdom of THIS ETERNITY(?) is foolishness to God" "but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either IN THIS ETERNITY or in THE ETERNITY TO COME(?)" "So it will be at the end of the ETERNITY(?); the angels will..." "and the cares OF THIS ETERNITY(?), the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful" SO PROPHETS PROPHECY BEFORE ETERNITY? BEFORE ADAM? "As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the ETERNITY(?) began," “The sons of THIS ETERNITY(?) marry and are given in marriage." We conclude Aion means Eon, the english word Eon does actually come from Aion by the way. You say "This is the lamb of God that takes away the sin of some" Oh wait, that's not the gospel: "THIS IS THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" ----------------- The wages of Sin is DEATH: "Who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" "The last enemy to be abolished is death" ---- People saved postmortem: "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, BUT LIVE according to God in the spirit."1Pt4:6 "For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His BANISHED ones are not expelled from Him."2Sam14:14 (The dead are just BANISHED from His presence until the times of reconciliation).

[@IsaacNussbaum]

*"And these will go away into eternal punishment...."* What does Paul say that "eternal punishment" is, Mike? (2 Thes. 1: 9)

[@Mike-qt7jp]

@@IsaacNussbaum Hell is infinite in the sense that it will never end. Matthew 25:46, “And {the wicked} will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The two words translated eternal above are from the same Greek word; aiōnion. It means “eternal” in both. By the way, if you say hell above is NOT eternal, do you also say eternal life above is NOT eternal? They are the same word in one verse. Revelation 14:9-11, “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur…And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night..." By the way the word torment is translated from the Greek word "basanismou" and if you look in a Greek concordance it means torture, pain, torment. It does NOT mean annihilate.

[@IsaacNussbaum]

@@Mike-qt7jp Yes, the punish *MENT* (not punish ING) will last forever. And here is what Paul said that eternal punishment will be. ✴ [The unsaved] _will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction…._ (2 Thessalonians 1: 9, ESV) ["olethron" (Greek) ruin, doom, destruction, death ]

[@Mike-qt7jp]

@@IsaacNussbaum Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” It does NOT say the wicked will be annihilated. Jude 1:7 "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. If they were simply burned up, the fire would not be or need to be eternal. I know this is dealing with angels, but 2 Peter 2:4 "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment..." Notice they went to hell and were NOT annihilated. Revelation 20:13 says, "...Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done." Notice the dead that were in Hades stand before God at the Great White Throne to be judged." CLEARLY, they were NOT annihilated, since they stand before God to be judged.

[@APOLLOS18v26]

Half right brother Some Will go in to Éternel Destruction 💯🙏🤍✝️

[@Randomcomedy101]

God never said we would be purified in hell it literally says eternal punishment if hell made you new again there would be no point of Jesus coming for us to come to him to have eternal life Do not be deceived

[@caroleevandyk5544]

You are reading MISTRANSLATED bibles. The popular English bibles widely used by churches and Christians make this mistake but the literally translated bibles do not, and your precious doctrine of eternal hell DISSOLVES with correct translation.

[@d_falt883]

​@@caroleevandyk5544 You didn't answer his question. Jesus' death on the cross was for nothing if hell is a means of atonement.

[@caroleevandyk5544]

@@d_falt883 So according to your understanding of who God is, God brings billions of people into existence knowing beforehand that they would be rebellious and end up suffering forever. Please tell me what possible purpose God would have for having such a vicious, insane plan for HIS creation. Eternal suffering in hell is the most horrific idea imaginable and yet this is the best plan for His creatures that the God who is love that NEVER fails can come up with? Seriously? And God trashes a huge part of His creatures in order to see if He can get some to love Him? Jesus came to save us from DEATH and our sin which is what leads to death. And death is the absence of life. It is not an eternal life of unimaginable suffering. The fact that you are so ready to swallow such a depraved idea and defend it without carefully examining the original Greek words from which this idea is “supposed” to have come is disturbing. There are dozens of scriptures that clearly indicate that Jesus is the successful saviour of everyone and that God’s plan is to eventually reconcile everything on earth and everything in heaven to Himself as He has made peace through the blood of Christ, as Colossians 1:20 states. Which hell are you talking about anyway? Is it hades, Gehenna or Tartarus? These are 3 different words, all meaning different things, yet carelessly lumped together in the one MIStranslated English word of hell. The literally translated bibles do not mistranslate these words. Hades is simply the grave, the unseen, the imperceptible, literally “where did they go?” Gehenna was the garbage dump of Jerusalem in the Valley of Hinnom, where there used to be child sacrifice and where the bodies of criminals were thrown to rot and be burned, where no Jewish person would ever want to end up. Today this place is a garden that you can visit. And Tartarus was only mentioned once in 2 Peter 2:4, referring to a place where evil angels are kept for judgement and it is NOT a place for humans. Furthermore, the length of time of God’s righteous judgements and corrective discipline for those who require it is NOT forever. The Greek word “aion” and its adjective “aionios” have again been mistranslated into everlasting, eternal, and the ridiculous “forever and ever”, as if there is more than one forever, a ludicrous translation that is meaningless. Aion refers to time, an indistinct period of time with a beginning and an end, NOT forever! So NO, Jesus did not come to save us from some mythical, PAGAN hell. He came to give us life and save us from death and the suffering that comes from sin. The idea of hell traces back to Egyptian paganism. It is NOT a concept found in accurately translated scripture.

[@georgeforyan113]

The Apostle Paul says in Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin is death." Paul does not say here that the wages of sin is "eternal life suffering forever in hell." He also says here..."but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." The bible makes it very clear in many places that Jesus came to give us eternal life through faith in him; and his death and resurrection. In order to sustain the torment of hell one must be given eternal life in order to remain alive in hell. But eternal life being a gift from God through Jesus, a person would not go to hell....And if he goes to hell, then he would not be given eternal life. So how does and evil sinner remain alive forever in hell when a person would have to be given eternal life, a gift from God through Jesus....And without Jesus who is the only one who can grant eternal life....All you would have is eternal death!

[@henrieecen2938]

Thank God for Eastern Orthodoxy remaining true to the early church father's understanding of Apokatastasis! God the Father's plan of redeeming ALL of HIS creation was, is and always will be, the cross of Jesus the CHRIST. Yes, historically here is where God's divine justice is met for the wages of sin. Jesus the Son being punished by the Father instead of us? Because of sin could the Father not look upon His Son? Is that why there was darkness and Jesus cried out "Father why have you forsaken me?" NO NO and once more NO! Firstly unlike the fallacy that we in western Christianity have come to believe...firstly the Trinity of Father Son and H.S. cannot be splt asunder but for one moment in time. They are one and the same!!! Secondly Jesus was quoting Psalm 22 as associated to Himselfand which all Jews knew very well, and especially from verse 19 to the end. Resurrection! "Greater love has no man than he who lays down his life for another." In the case of the CROSS it was the Father co suffering and dying with His Son in the flesh in order to reconcile ALL of mankind, not only those who embraced its meaning after Jesus's resurrection. Oh how and especially Calvinistic fundamentalist Protestantism, created a stumbling block for so many in the misrepresentation of God's nature. The Judo Christian world ows much to Christianity, but certainly not the radical transformation which conquered the Roman Empire. However after the institutionalization of Christianity, except for the "remnant, " it became a culture of moralism rather than LOVE. For those "seeking to find" maybe check out ex Protestant pastor now Othodox Brad Jerzak's book or talk on U tube on " A more Christlike God." Liberating!!!

[@Mike-qt7jp]

Jesus said, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and MANY are on it, but straight is the way to life (Heaven) and few ever find it. Jesus did NOT teach universalism.

[@stevenhoyt]

had me right up to the argument to complexity. the difficulty is the fact that creation is necessarily nomologically possible, not just logically possible. the metaphysical view of god as creator doesn't get anyone anywhere.

[@philipbuckley759]

check the site....100 verses that speak to the subject, of eternal punishment.....as they say...the road, to hell, is paved with good intentions.....there is no option, to like this teaching, it seems to have sufficient Biblical backing, so check it out and dont take this speaker at face value...

[@trisharundle1964]

The word was never eternal torment it was Aion the bible was never written in english it was to hebrew from greek. why would GOD say the wages of sin is death why would yahusha say love your enemies.

[@ttownsupreme2183]

What is your best verse for eternal conscious torment.

[@trisharundle1964]

@@ttownsupreme2183 10/9/19 BTS...the religious lie about hell & God tormenting people forever. / Faye Stiles kzbin.info/www/bejne/pIXaoKKhjdSqb5o

[@KSSBG]

@@ttownsupreme2183 Matthew 25 46

[@philipbuckley759]

standard argument....after all Jesus did not seem to mind.....he spoke, more than anyone, on the subject....so is he a liar......you choose....

[@ttownsupreme2183]

On Gahenna.tartarus or sheol...not ECT

[@danettecross8608]

Jesus spoke about THE KINGDOM more than anything else. Gah! How I hate it when people say that HELL was his #1 topic, what garbage!

[@philipbuckley759]

if fire is purifying then the cross is redundant....ergo, useless.....like good luck, on judgement....because the teaching, on this subject....is way, over the top.....to tamper with....just find a way, to avoid it...

[@michaelleppan9960]

How did you make the jump from; if "purifying fire" therefore the "cross is redundant"?

[@trisharundle1964]

The Eonian Times: Session 2 -- The Most Mistranslated Words in the Bible / Faith Ignitor kzbin.info/www/bejne/hqSkqaKVeZmefpY

[@trisharundle1964]

No it stands on the cross

[@Liesdestroylives]

Philip, I’m sure you’ve heard lots of testimonies where people hit rock bottom and then came to God. Some of those people hit rock bottom because of drug use. Would it be logical to say of those people that drug use led them to God? In Hell people will not be able to run from the consequences of their sins anymore. There they will hit rock bottom and know they need a saviour. Btw, wanting to avoid suffering is not the same as repenting. No one will be able to fool God.

[@ttownsupreme2183]

Daniel Chapter 9 tells you why Jesus Christ died...to bring an end to sin and bring in everlasting righteousness.The Bible never says Jesus came to die to save people from eternal conscious torment....he came to save people from sin.