Is the Rule of Thirds a Bunch of CRAP? Composition Tips You Need

[@artprof]

Watch our video on Why Your Art Needs a Background (36 min. video): kzbin.info/www/bejne/rGHEd6yIZator9E

[@AtomicElf1]

The rule of thirds is so popular because it is a simplified method to approximate the golden ratio. The golden ratio is amazing and shows up in nature in so many ways. When you apply the golden ratio to compositional aspects, it can induce an unconcious appeal. It can be a very powerful tool. But the application goes far beyond just the positioning of focal points.

[@artprof]

Yes, there are so many other compositional things to consider when making a piece!! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@windphotomedia]

Sorry I could not post this live, but this is another video (like art supplies last month) that I think the true answer is "Depends", and that does not come across clear, although @laurynredwlech does a good attempt. Couple of thoughts: I am a plein air landscape painter. in changing light, you don't have time to do lots of thumbnails for every option. The rule of thirds requires clear choices and composition thought, but you don't want the horizon line in the middle; it only works in some cases and lots of planning. So placing it at the bottom third line to feature tree height and/or sky or top third to allow good fore and middle ground. Landscapes with center composition do not happen, usually by accident. They require lots of planning. Most accidental paintings, especially by less experienced painters, do not work. Second: yup, it can be crutch. But thats a poor answer that does not serve the student. Every master carpenter has to learn how to use a hamer. If they use it on a screw, they are wrong. But that does not change the hammer is a USEFUL tool that capenters should learn and then decide when it can be used or discarded for the specific task at hand. I just think @claralieu is wrongly locked into "RULE". I would never throw out a tool that has stood the test of time because of a false idea that someone said it MUST be followed. Its a very useful tool and ignoring it or not learning it, limits your options. Don't view it is limiting, view it as a guide that might help you!

[@artprof]

I really like how you put these points!! I totally agree with you-- it's a tool in your menagerie of helpful artistic techniques that you can pull out if needed. I think it's a helpful building block on the road of discovering & learning about interesting compositions :) - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@tanglingheadphones]

I agree that it might be more a photography thing. When drawing/painting, when I consider where I want to put my centers of interest, they very rarely match up with those intersections, tbh. And when I try to match up the Rule with artwork I love from other people, they rarely apply.

[@artprof]

Yes, I think in photography it might make more sense depending on what camera you use, since the guidelines are built in to the viewfinder. Thanks for watching!! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@chibblesohoulihan8040]

It’s a good starting point and an effective way to organize the page very early in the work. I don’t ever follow it all the way and purposely buck SOME art rules. I use the thirds in my mind to judge if my composition is interesting, or at least interests me.

[@artprof]

I think you're right in saying it's a good way to start-- I always start with the rule of thirds in mind, then wander away as I grow confident in the piece. It's always good not to feel trapped within your guidelines! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@dianabritton2511]

3:51 I don't consciously use it, but I think the rule of thirds and other 'rules' are inbedded in the memory banks and tend to subconsciously have an impact.

[@artprof]

Very true-- I find myself subconsciously working this into my pieces even if I don't actively think about it! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@kateashby3066]

That’s funny because when I edit my photos I almost always use the rule of thirds but I don’t pay it nearly as much mind in my drawings or paintings. I think that’s because I have complete control over the composition when I draw and I’m limited to the “view” in front of me when I take photos. So I need to make it as interesting as possible and I find this helps me do that. Even just snapping a cute picture of my dog- I don’t like him to be in the center of the photo. It’s just not as interesting… to ME. But I do not subscribe to it being a “rule”. It’s merely a tool one CAN use for a composition if they’re going for asymmetry and emphasis. :)

[@artprof]

I think it's a resource you can pull from if need be, but as you said-- not a concrete rule. I rather like the rule of thirds in my opinion, but I always change it up in my own way! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@maletu]

For landscape painting, I generally put my horizon at 2/5ths or 3/5ths. Re: narrative intent: the idea I was taught (for photography) was that you put what is most important at/near one of the intersections (of WHATEVER grid), so no it doesn't ignore narrative intent. For photography-especially now that digital tech lets/encourages us to relatively hasty shots (contrast, s l o w setup)-that thirds grid (that most cameras pop up automatically) is not a bad starting place. Align, assess, change a bit if desired, shoot. Repeat, as is so easy and cheap with digital [do I sound like a dinosaur?] IF you're going to use any kind of grid: align other things besides just your center of interest with grid lines and/or intersections: background stuff, negative space, whatever. All that said, meh. Do what works.

[@artprof]

Yes-- I agree that when working on a composition, you have to consider EVERYTHING, not just your main focus! Thank you so much for watching & for sharing your thoughts :D - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@krzysztofmathews738]

Great discussion, folks!

[@artprof]

Glad you think so! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@taecampbe]

This is quite an discussion. About a decade ago when i started painting i heard of the rule of thirds. I dont think of it anymore , I think there are others ways to achieve an composition.

[@artprof]

I think it's useful to start out, and very easy to move past once you've created enough work! Thanks for watching :) - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@heatherh3457]

It should be the 'guideline' of thirds and is just a quick reference cue for placements. There are so many more important things to learn rather than this very elementary idea which is worked to death, that someone with a good eye takes for granted.

[@jaredgreen2363]

How exactly does one violate(as opposed to ignore) the rule of thirds?

[@artprof]

I think ignoring/violating the rule is more or less the same! You can always intentionally go against the rule though for the sake of concept :) - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@Vera4Art]

It often works. I often use it but also "break" it. Sometimes one would place the focal point intentionally in the middle. Rule of third is not the only thing to consider. The movement of the viewer's eyes through the artwork is perhaps more important? Can achieve movement with rhythm, lines, repeating elements, color, contrast etc. I do not want the viewer's eyes to be stuck into the third and look nowhere else. Those other recipes e.g. of Payne (s curve, crucifix, diagonal, radial etc) are talked about by abstract artists. For example, the crucifix, I would try and put the intersect on a third.

[@artprof]

Yes-- there's always so much more than just one "rule" to think about when creating a piece like this! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@Catbooks]

Missed your live stream again! Oh well. It was interesting. I've always just eyeballed it. If the composition looks good to my eye, that's all I pay attention to.

[@artprof]

Me too!! I've never taken the time to measure or use rulers.... I'm too lazy :P - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@Catbooks]

@@artprof Likewise, too lazy, lol. But it's also an inspiration-killer for me to use measurements and rulers. It's like setting up obstacles I don't need, so why do it? I can see value if you haven't developed your eye for composition yet, or want to double-check your work.

[@ccantrell4053]

Oh no. That 3rds thing is way too complicated for me. I never was taught it either

[@artprof]

We hope you found this chat interesting! Thanks so much for watching :D - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@windphotomedia]

"Negative space usually isn't considered" Again, I disagree. There are lots of landscape paintings where the negative pace IS the focal point and very closely follow the "Rule of Thirds."

[@artprof]

I think it really depends on intention & the specific artist! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@MariaRevArt]

I like the rule of thirds, but I definitely use it like more of a guideline for creating balance and not on every piece. Sometimes I use triangular or circular compositions.

[@artprof]

Yes! I love triangular and radial compositions! -Lauryn, Art Prof Teaching Artist

[@jeannettesalazar6442]

Your photo use the rule who took your photo?

[@frederickwarrick1294]

i have never heard of the rule... i spent a year in fine arts at UMass Amherst and a year at a cartooning school and it never came up... but that was in the paleo era of the late 70's early 80's. I do remember trying to get my now ex to NOT center everything when she was taking a photography class at U of Richmond. one of my favorite quotes was a young Spielberg quoting John Ford on how to frame in film...(paraphrasing) "When you know where to put the horizon you'll be a director"

[@artprof]

Haha, it always leads back to where to put the horizon line! Thanks for watching :) - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@dianabritton2511]

Watching replay... The only thing I consciously tend to avoid is putting the horizon dead centre

[@artprof]

Yup, that's always a compositional no no! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@jeannettesalazar6442]

I am an illustrator and we always use the rule of thirds and I use it in my oil paintings.

[@artprof]

That's great! I think utilizing any trick to achieve a successful painting is a win :D - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@death057]

Every single one of these drawers your eye into the center it Loops you around that black white and colon Washington Jr 1972 that one is definitely rule of thirds

[@zenobiaunknown2668]

The golden triangle helps me the most

[@artprof]

Love a good golden triangle! -Lauryn, Art Prof Teaching Artist

[@LisaMoore-ye3ok]

Is it me or does the rule of thirds grid looks like prison bars. Nooo thank you.

[@artprof]

Ha, no one wants to be imprisoned by a rule! -Lauryn, Art Prof Teaching Artist

[@artwithalexander5359]

i thought i sort of was using this but just found out this is not what i thought it was LOL now i don't know what i am using. i don't even know what the rules are so not halving your picture with half sky and half land/sea. that's it, that's the only rule i actually know. i think i heard about it on youtube last year. been winging composition my whole life. nope, not making a point with my art. just making something beautiful. nice chart. i don't know about 3eds but i do like 3s and odd numbers... especially if i can get a square root of three from them LOL things change size/shape the further away they get. that's life!

[@artprof]

Haha-- sometimes it's as simple as liking 3s! I completely relate. Whatever is a satisfying composition to you is the right way to go. Thanks for watching! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@windphotomedia]

Oops, need to post a last thought. I am restudying Payne's book right now. You are being very inconsistent and unfair to Payne in using him against the Rule of Thirds. Especially on p.14 he clearly points out the errors Clara is constantly making by focusing on "RULE" as part of the common name. He guided my thought I posted earlier and clearly explains why he feels this way of looking at things may hold artists back. Although he goes in much more depth than a simple "Thirds", his explanations of "balance and unity" and the various methods are consistent and build upon "Thirds". I would encourage all to read the book, because I believe it gives better explanation than I could and clarifies this topic where I felt much of this video mislead.

[@artprof]

Interesting, I should read Payne's book, thanks for the context! -Lauryn, Art Prof Teaching Artist

[@death057]

It does not that is actually in a spiral it goes from the left hand side it is in the rule of thirds every single one of these has the rule of thirds in it even though they're not in a rectangle you're focusing on the actual literal lines you have to look at it as a spiral that focuses you into the center of the picture

[@ltwig476]

Rule of thirds is a great way to start artist. There are many more rules for composition and color. I try to break every rule I can because I don't want my work looking too mediocre. Was taught to spread bits of the same color around the canvas to tie it together. Gawd, I followed that rule for way too many years. In landscape, I think the rule of thirds is less important than nailing the bottom corners down. I just did a 40 by 24 iced over lake totally eliminating the rule of thirds. If you are going to talk about rule of thirds, shouldn't you be talking about weight and balance at the same time? Using both color and shape? Understanding that color can outweigh shape and all that. Human or animal figure outweigh everything, hence toning them down. As in my iced over lake, putting the toned down ice skaters at the very farthest back of the lake, more like silhouettes I painted impressionist landscapes for years before putting human figures in. I finally figured out that human figures added great interest if done really subdued and parsley. You can even center them as long as they are way back in the background. At that point there is not really an esthetic center back there. The center is the center of the lake, in which should be the most grayed part of your lake. So many rules become obsolete in abstract. IMO, the worst thing you can do is have balance in an abstract. Unless it is open space balance.

[@death057]

The fundamentals are the building blocks of fun if you don't know the rules how can you break them it's all based on a spiral anyway it's not even technically about the nine squares it's a Fibonacci sequence. Clarence the thing that you like remember that draws your eye into the center sweeping around the page without it being stuck right in the center experimentation is extremely important but if you wanted to write your own song with the piano but you barely knew the fundamentals of the piano you wouldn't even know anything about the composition of the song you wanted to write it's the same thing with visual art if we don't know the rules yeah we could break them every once in a while but in the end it would actually be harder to constantly come up with different compositions instead of just winging it with a hope and a prayer and hoping that it doesn't come out like 5 million other things that are stuck in our subconscious without us knowing and the rule of thirds has to do with the Fibonacci sequence which is the mathematics spiral that has to do with life like a nautilus shell everything in life has a mathematics sequence and that's what the Fibonacci sequence which makes up the rule of thirds. It is way more than just the lines on the paper and where you're supposed to put things it's so much looser and more organic than you're making it seem it's a rule of thirds like there's a law of physics know the rule of thirds does not understand the hierarchy of a story but the person who's looking through the viewfinder frames and image in an organic way which makes your eyes flow from the side of the canvas up and around into the center sometimes Clara you seem a little bit picky and literal for somebody who's trying to find the deeper meaning in photographs and in art in general. Art is here to cause an emotion a picture is not art if it does not cause emotion not necessarily good emotion if it causes an extremely bad emotion if you can't stand it congratulations it's art if you love it it's art if it does not cause a reaction possibly something art is a non-reaction is the reaction that the artist was actually going for.

[@AkikoTakashima1]

Composition laws in art are crucial because they provide a framework for arranging elements within a visual work to create a sense of harmony, balance, and visual appeal. These laws serve as fundamental guidelines that artists have followed for centuries to create aesthetically pleasing and emotionally impactful artworks. Here are some reasons why composition laws are so important in art: Visual Appeal: A well-composed artwork attracts the viewer's attention and engages them on a deeper level. The careful arrangement of elements such as lines, shapes, colors, and textures creates a visual rhythm that is pleasing to the eye and encourages the viewer to explore the piece further. Communication and Expression: Art is a form of communication, and proper composition helps artists effectively convey their intended message or emotion. Composition can evoke specific feelings or moods, direct the viewer's gaze, and highlight the most important aspects of the artwork. Unity and Cohesion: Composition laws help unify an artwork by creating a sense of coherence and cohesion among the various elements. When elements are arranged with a clear plan, the artwork appears as a unified whole rather than a collection of unrelated components. Balance and Harmony: Balance is essential in art to distribute visual weight evenly and avoid a sense of instability. Properly balanced compositions feel harmonious and calm, while imbalanced ones may create tension or unease, depending on the artist's intention. Emphasis and Focal Points: Through composition, artists can direct the viewer's attention to specific areas of the artwork. The use of focal points and emphasis ensures that the most important elements or ideas are highlighted and stand out from the rest of the composition. Flow and Movement: Composition allows artists to create a sense of movement and guide the viewer's eye through the artwork. This flow helps the viewer navigate the piece and contributes to a more dynamic and engaging experience. Contrast and Variety: Composition laws help artists use contrast and variety effectively to add visual interest to their works. Contrasts in size, color, shape, or texture can create drama and excitement within an artwork. Cultural and Historical Continuity: The principles of composition have evolved over time and are deeply rooted in the history of art. By following these principles, artists can build on the collective knowledge of the past and contribute to the continuity of artistic expression. It's important to note that while composition laws provide valuable guidelines, art is ultimately a form of creative expression, and some artists may intentionally break these rules to achieve specific effects or challenge conventional norms. Nevertheless, a solid understanding of composition laws lays the foundation for effective communication and successful visual storytelling in the world of art.

[@artprof]

Exactly-- I agree with your point in saying that composition has fundamental aspects to consider & eventually break for artistic purposes! Thank you so much for watching with us :D - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@echoinsahara]

The only rule in art is to break rules

[@artprof]

True! - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@death057]

It's also known as the golden ratio! Look up the golden ratio does that sound familiar to anybody? Using the lines to split up the canvas mentally not actually drawing them on the canvas is a simplified way to help people discover the golden ratio which everything you've shown has in it and on that note I'm going to walk away because it's not about breaking training wheels off it's not about being stuck in the golden ratio it's about things looking organic it's not actually about the squares at all it's the spiral your eyes take I can't I just can't you can't grasp it it's so cute it's all the rule of thirds it's all the golden ratio and it's all in nature

[@artprof]

The golden ratio and rule of thirds are not the same, but they do serve a similar function of dividing a space up to create a balanced and pleasing composition! And I agree, it's so cool that both make up the structure of the world we live in, feels like it was all by design! ❤️ -Lauryn, Art Prof Teaching Artist

[@bongbonglelina4895]

The rules of art: Guts and Instict

[@artprof]

So true! -Lauryn, Art Prof Teaching Artist

[@death057]

I'm sorry Clara but your Moulin Rouge does use the rule of thirds I am so sorry the rule of thirds is more subconscious to the eye of an artist than anything with composition can you agree that the whole idea is for your eye to move around the painting or photograph to draw you into the center and I'm sorry I don't know who told you guys that the rule of thirds means that the focal points have to be exactly in those cross-sections that's not it I don't know where y'all are getting taught but I was taught 90s high school that art class and photography class about the rule of thirds and that it's not literal exclamation point I can't watch this I'm getting real salty at y'all cuz I personally think you might have wanted to find a little bit of a deeper meaning in the actual rule of thirds and the organic math that comes from things like the spiral where it actually came from not just the rule that must be followed that we're all taught in art class. The rule of thirds came from organic math to begin with it's the elements in nature that make it organic by sitting here and talking about having to have something on the exact marks is so literal that it takes away from what's beautiful about composition and every single one of the compositions on that page that you show has the rule of thirds in it if you look at the original meaning it's the spiral that your eyes take from the edge of the page into the center and you don't put a stupid grid down okay I'm done I'm sorry I'm stopping because oh my God if you only saw the organic value in this you guys are taking this so literal you don't put a stupid grid down on your art

[@artprof]

I think the rule of thirds is extremely useful-- you have a ton of great points! It's great to dive into the deeper history behind a teaching method like this-- it's one of the first art lessons we tend to learn for a reason, and for that I really respect it. Every artist works differently though, which is part of the beauty of different practices & results! Thanks for watching and leaving your thoughtful responses :) - Mia, Art Prof Staff

[@death057]

I'm going to stop commenting now cuz I am getting extremely reactionary to this rule of thirds live stream. I could show you the rule of thirds in every single one of those pieces that you showed me trying to show that it did not follow the rule of thirds because y'all are making it so absolutely literal you're not grasping the actual idea of it and maybe that's because Clara you never got it taught to you you can't just look on the internet and think you're going to know the depths of something like the Fibonacci sequence which is the basis of the rule of thirds