Is the Shroud of Turin BIBLICAL? | feat. Fr. Andrew Dalton

Some people take issue with the Shroud’s authenticity based on supposed conflicts or inconsistencies between the cloth/image and biblical data. Is there anything to these concerns? Renowned Shroud expert Fr. Andrew Dalton joins host Mike Creavey to take a closer look!
LINKS/RESOURCES:
- Shroud of Turin official website: shroud.com
- Othonia (Shroud research group & information on post-gradaute certificate): en.othoniainternational.org/c...
- Fr. Andrew Dalton Shroud deep-dive on “Pints with Aquinas” (1/6/2023): • New Evidence for the S...
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To find more faith-enriching content than you’ll know what to do with and to contact Mike Creavey, be sure to visit thegraciousguest.org

[@julielabrecque6416]

His knowledge is amazing, and his delivery makes it easy to understand!!

[@TheGraciousGuest]

Agreed!

[@TheGraciousGuest]

This was AWESOME and Father had so many great insights!

[@wipo3654]

Do you believe in Christ and do you know the Bible? According to the gospels' context ... Joseph of Arimathea bought the needed burial linen cloth (SINDON). That means bandages (OTHONION) and the head cloth (SOUDARION). Nicodemus organised about 32 kg spices. That means a sticky mixture of myrrh and aloes. Jesus was taken from the cross and most likely he was also washed. Then the body, except the head, was promply wrapped/bound with (META) the spices between the bandages (OTHONION) according to the burial custom of Jews at that time. The head was covered with the head cloth (SOUDARION). Finally Jesus was carried to the nearby rock-tomb and was laid in there. The rock-tomb was closed with a stone and sealed. After Sabbath the women intended to anoint Jesus' head removing and readding the head cloth (SOUDARION) but ... Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures. 1 Corinthians 15:3,4 Jesus has risen! At dawn one Sunday almost 2,000 years ago, a great event took place. What happened? Two days earlier, the completely innocent Jesus of Nazareth had been executed on a cross. In the evening of the same day, two of his disciples buried him in a rock tomb before the Sabbath began, the day of rest for the Jews and today's Saturday. Several Roman soldiers guarded the tomb. Sunday morning, shortly after midnight, it happened: Jesus Christ rose from the dead! As the first proof of this, God caused a great earthquake. Then He sent an angel to roll away the heavy stone in front of the tomb. So everyone could see that the grave was empty! The soldiers trembled in fear and were completely powerless. They could not prevent the resurrection of the Lord Jesus - but they were witnesses to it. A new day dawned for humanity - the starting point for the gospel of God's grace. Jesus predicted: “I am the resurrection and the life; Whoever believes in me, even though he dies, will he live” (John 11:25). This saving faith in Him is not merely believing that His life on earth was perfect and sinless. It also includes more than believing in His death on the cross. Saving faith includes belief in his resurrection. If Jesus had not risen, faith would be meaningless. It would be as useless as belief in any religion founder. None of them can help us because they are all dead. But Jesus lives - He has conquered death and gives eternal life to those who believe in Him!

[@TheProdigalPilgrim]

That was a fantastic interview. I love listening to fr. Dalton. Exellent questions and I was blow away by this. Got me a bit emotional in the end. Thanks for this and Godbless you brother.

[@commendatore2516]

thanks for this! i could listen hours to brother Andrew Dalton, make the good Lord protect him and give him even more knowledge

[@sigurdholbarki8268]

Really enjoyed that, a lot of other interviews focus in on the material aspects so it's nice to hear Father Andrew bring in some theology. I appreciated that

[@gladyskravitzjr825]

Great interview it was a blessing ❤

[@alexandercochrane9410]

God Bless Father Dalton!

[@kellywillauer1059]

This presentation is awesome.

[@WinItReigns]

Tell Andrew that I purchased and Recieved The Holy Shroud Oil. And it arrived Today May 4th! The Holy Feast Day of The Shroud! The Father Blessed it and I am So Thankful😊 God Bless You Guys

[@WinItReigns]

He has Got to be right about the "packing" of the shroud and how it covered the body

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

When the "other disciple" reached the tomb, he did not immediately go into the tomb, but gave precedence to Peter. From outside of the tomb that disciple could see "the linen cloths lying on the ground." Subsequently, the other disciple entered the tomb where he could more closely observe the burial cloths, and he saw something which caused him to "believe." So, why doesn't John, who has been so descriptive up to this point, relate to us what it was in the tomb that suddenly caused him to believe? It could only have been the image of Jesus' face on his shroud which none of the Gospel writers could mention. John does not mention the burial shroud at all, but writes only of "the linen cloths." Luke cites the burial shroud, but does not repeat John's claim of something very unusual present in the tomb. Mark mentions the purchase and use of the burial shroud, but also makes no mention of anything special about the tomb aside from the missing corpse, and about the same for Matthew. A pattern is here: either the burial shroud in mentioned, or someting unusual in the tomb is mentioned, but not both by the same writer. The conclusion is that the Gospel writers can not mention both the burial shroud and something unusual in the tomb in the same book. In first century Israel, no one was allowed to paint human protraits. Such imagery was illegal. On top of that, the religious authorities knew of Jesus' prophecy that he would appear alive after his execution, and they would have wanted to confiscate any evidence that supported the fulfillment of that prediction. A miraculous image of Jesus' dead body on his burial shroud would have been marked for destruction. The Gospel writers could mention either the burial shroud or allude to its miraculous image, but not both in the same book without fear of giving too much information to the Jewish authorities.

[@edwardjones2129]

Wow, this is a very interesting theory!

[@maryspencer4274]

The cloths include the napkin which covered His Face with the connection the reference to common use of wrapping up a napkin in a way to indicate they were finished.

[@mikesewchok5978]

Dr. Gilbert Lavoie ("The Shroud of Jesus And the Sign John Ingeniously Concealed") theorizes that the body is upright when the image on the Shroud is formed. If so, could the spices have fallen?

[@commendatore2516]

i heard or read about this theory, Dr Lavoie is theorising this because of the hair of the man, the hair in his eyes is hanging down, like the man is standing, the gravity is making the hair fall down

[@wipo3654]

It is not only because of the hair that Shroud apostles are forced to invent such non biblical but mystical stories. There is the problem that the forensic contact pattern of the backside of a body laying on a table is not in conformity with the backside image of the Shroud. And that the spices according to this video were added as packages is the next fabulous story to justify one huge piece of linen. And nobody scrutinizes this although Andrew doesn't give any evidence for that. The 32 kg sticky mixture of myrrh and aloes was put between the bandages. This kept the wrapping in shape and the main function of such spices was to suspress smell. If you are interested - more of my biblical claims can be found here.

[@wipo3654]

NO SHROUD mentioned in the gospels! Read and trust the Bible. I started to think about the Shroud of Turin some weeks ago because quite a lot of KZbin channels claim that it is 100 % sure the burial cloth of Jesus. So I did what Paul said: 1Thess 5,21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, I searched for all the relevant "burial" verses in the gospels and I did some basic Greek word studies on BibleHub (free bible study webpage - select Interlinear): Mk 15,46 And Joseph bought linen cloth [SINDONA, singular] and taking him down, wrapped [ENEILESEN] him in the linen cloth [SINDONI, singular] and laid him in a tomb that had been cut out of the rock. And he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. Joh 19,39 Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds in weight [about 32 kg]. Joh 19,40 So they took the body of Jesus and bound [EDESAN] it in linen cloths [OTHONIOIS, plural] with [META] the spices [AROMATON; about 32 kg], as is the burial custom of the Jews. Mk 16,1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices [AROMATA] so that they might go to anoint [ALEIPSOSIN] Jesus. (1) SINDON > "a linen cloth" or "linen cloth"? I quickly recognised that some Bible translations of SINDON are adding the indefinite article "a" although there is no one in the original Greek texts. Is it mandatory to add "a" and is it also mandatory to understand "the" plus noun singular always as one piece only? If SINDON must be understood as one large piece linen only (like the Shroud) - where the bandages (OTHONION) and the head cloth (SOUDARION) came from? Why the gospel of John does not mention SINDON? Answer: In the context SINDON must be translated/understood as a general material description "linen cloth" and it means all the needed burial cloth (bandages and head cloth). Joseph for sure knew what was needed according to the burial custom of (rich) Jews at that time. And John didn't mention SINDON in his gospel because he also didn't mention the purchase of Joseph. (2) SPICES > stains/particles Nicodemus organised a 32 kg sticky mixture of myrrh and aloes. Together with Joseph they wrapped/bound the body in linen (OTHONION) WITH the spices. They completed this work according to the burial custom of Jews at that time. STURP (Shroud Of Turin Research Program) used many analytical methods and finally it was even emphasised that not any trace of spices/oils were detected!? But there must be at least non degradable stains/particles of spices (like for blood)!? And if in the meantime a failure of STURP was revealed - how the adding of spices worked with something like the Shroud of Turin? Answer: OTHONION means bandages and the spices were put between the bandages when the body - EXCEPT THE HEAD - was wrapped/bound by Joseph and Nicodemus. This was done promptly after taking Jesus from the cross. (3) SOUDARION Shroud If the complete body of Jesus was already wrapped/bound by Joseph and Nicodemus in something like the Shroud - why there was a need to add a head cloth (SOUDARION)? Also Lazarus wore a head cloth when coming out the tomb himself (Joh 11,44). And despite the burial cloth Lazarus was able to stand up and to go! Answer: The SOUDARION was added also promply to cover the head and it remained there until the resurrection. (4) WOMEN > anointing Jesus was transported to the nearby rock-tomb and was laid in there. Some of the women observed this and nothing else was done in the tomb. After Sabbath the women came with the intention to anoint Jesus. How this worked if the body was completely wrapped/bound in something like the Shroud with the spices? To get access at least to his head they would have had to remove/destroy the wrapping and uncovering a naked man underneath!? Answer: The women came after Sabbath with the intention to anoint Jesus' head (hair/face). This was an act of honour that could have been done easily by removing/readding the head cloth (SOUDARION). But it would have been impossible and illogic with something like the Shroud of Turin. So there is no need to trust a still doubtful and controversial relic like the Shroud of Turin to be the authentic burial cloth of Jesus: Joh 20,29 Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’

[@edwardjones2129]

​@@wipo3654 The body was in rigor mortis, the head leaned forward (to allow the gravity of the hair) and the buttocks were fully rigid, coinciding with what we see on the dorsal image of the shroud.

[@wipo3654]

​​​​​​​​​@@edwardjones2129 When rigor mortis starts and ends? How do you know that it concerned the regarding muscels during the wrapping and that it was still active when Jesus resurrected? However, to discuss Sindonology topics will never end. I rely on the Scripture and something like the Shroud is not confirmed by the gospels, e.g. I have watched video simulations of the desired Shroud wrapping. No rigor mortis demonstrated and overall they all did it without using the 32 kg spices (mixture of myrrh and aloe). But those spices were added for sure when wrapping the body with bandages (othonion) and finally they added the head cloth (soudarion). ONLY THEN they laid Jesus into the rock-tomb: Joh 19,39 Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds in weight [about 32 kg]. Joh 19,40 So they took the body of Jesus and bound [EDESAN] it in linen cloths [OTHONIOIS, plural] with [META] the spices [AROMATON; about 32 kg], as is the burial custom of the Jews. Not any word in the gospels that there was a lack of time and that the head cloth was added on the cross and removed to wrap the body in something like the Shroud. Not any word in the gospels that the women had to finish the "spicing". They intended to anoint Jesus and this is something completely different. Spices are added to suspress the smell of decay. Anointing is always done with oils/perfumes mainly to honour somebody. The Greek word for "spices" has different meanings and the context is decisive, e.g. Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 759: ἄρωμα ἄρωμα, ἀρώματος, τό (from ἈΡΩ to prepare, whence ἀρτύω to season; (others connect it with the root ar (ἀρόω), to plow (cf. Genesis 27:27); others besides)), spice, perfume: Mark 16:1; Luke 23:56; Luke 24:1; John 19:40. (2 Kings 20:13; Esther 2:12; Song of Solomon 4:10, 16. (Hippocrates), Xenophon, Theophrastus, and subsequent writings.) So each person with a little bit common sense and trust in the Scripture must reject the Shroud.

[@WinItReigns]

Alright, Im here. Sorry Im late

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

Two recent papers advance the hypothesis that Jesus predicted the images of his corpse on the Shroud. 1. The Image on the Turin Shroud Is "The Sign of Jonah" For Our Generation! by Rev. Larry Stalley, 2020 2. The Enigma of the Sign of Jonah, BSTS Shroud Newsletter, Summer 2023, No. 97

[@conceicaotavora5599]

Porque não em Português? 😢

[@alancook4407]

I need to know if the shroud is authentic due to a experience i had i firmly believe my experience was real and the spear wound is not were we think it was so we should by now if the shroud is genuine by now if we don't know yet it's more likely a fake

[@beverlyhurd8556]

It's actually _way_ more likely for it to be the real deal as science has proven that it was not made by the hand of man.

[@sdb6757]

The image on the shroud looks suspiciously like Frank Zappa!

[@jeannechristopher5932]

You might say, the kiss of Judas, was the kiss of death!

[@abrahamphilip6439]

It is like asking Is history Biblical ? The hatred of the Protestants for the Catholic & Constantine is unprecidendent to the question is Protestantism , Christian ? The answer is no , (caught in the leavens of the Faith - The leaven of Herod) Now, at the time of Christ there ruled a king called Abgar in Edessa (Urhai) who having heard of Jesus & his PERSECUTION by the Jews , send word to Jesus inviting him.to live & preach in his kingdom peacefully, to which Jesus sent back word saying he would not come but would send his representatives , Later came Mar Mari & Mar Addai , the pair of the 72 disciples & the King was greatly pleased at seeing them , remembering the words of Jesus , thus come in.pocession of what became called the "image of Edessa" -- The Mandylion (not to be confused with the shroud of Turin) as a Gift from Christ, The King arranged for the disciples to preach Christ across his kingdom, The first king to become a Christian, Edessa went on to become a major center for Christian learning , a safe place for Christians inc the Jews who accepted the Messiah , while there was heavy PERSECUTIONS going on in Rome & Jerusalem , Edessa from where orginated the " Anaphore of Mari & Addai " the oldest known Apostolic Liturgy called the "Gem" During the latter part of the 2nd Centuary there was born in the land of Abgar (Edessa) to a Christian Greek innkeepers daughter Helena , a Son , who went on to become "Constantine the Great" leading to the edict of Milan , He who became the Emperor of all of the East & West, It is said that After Abgar invited Jesus, Christ washed his face & dried it with a piece of cloth & the image of his face became imprinted on the Cloth & it is reasoned that which caused the image of his faced to be imprinted on the Cloth was his "Strong Emotion" The Mandylion went on to become a priced pocession of the Byzantine empire , even as its truth continues,;

[@VisibleSoundVideo]

Funny, non of the apostles had degrees.

[@jeannechristopher5932]

No, but they did have the wisdom of the Holy Spirit infused into them at Pentecost! Can’t get better then that!

[@TheMoreYouSew]

What about the height of the Man? 😀

[@TheGraciousGuest]

What about it specifically?

[@TheMoreYouSew]

@@TheGraciousGuest sorry ha I meant to finish my thoughts! 😅 That the Man is apparently "too tall" compared to the average first century Jew? Thanks!

[@sigurdholbarki8268]

​@@TheMoreYouSewwatch with average heights , and also average ages, when it comes to history. 19-20th centuries have got an urban bias where people are still typically shorter, and the further you go back the smaller the sample and more susceptable to survival bias. Average Age is the same as it usually contains infant mortality which was up to 75% before about 1750. I hear people bring this up when I'm Viking Age outreach and I have to tell folk it's a bit of non issue and cite several burials where the deceased was over 6'.

[@joinjen3854]

Can you provide PROOF of the heights of men from Judea in the 1st Century? Thanks. Looking forward to your scholarly research. The height of the man in the Shroud is possibly the least important thing In all of this. Way to go for missing the Miraculous Resurrection!!😢😢 We have the Image because of the radiation going through the linen.

[@TheMoreYouSew]

@@joinjen3854 I'm not trying to be contrarian at all! It's just an argument that many skeptics use and I'd want to know how to address it!

[@georgegrubbs2966]

What if it is the Jesus shroud? So what? Is it magic? Divine? It's a piece of cloth; an interesting find, but nothing more.

[@jeffreyerwin3665]

The Shroud's images have been closely examined by scientists using tons of equipment. These images are not paintings of any kind and are not the work of an artist. They depict a dead human body that has been executed by crucifixion. Human corpses are not capable of making their images, but this one did. It also gave off a neutron flux which enhanced the Shroud's radiocarbon content, and corpses cannot do that, either. The obvious conclusion is that the images are of Jesus and that they are miraculous. Anyone who does not harbor some kind of bias against the supernatural can easily see this. The Shroud and its miraculous images are much more than "an interesting find." They prove that Jesus was a real person in an age in which many say that Jesus did not actually exist. They also prove that Jesus worked miracles. It appears that Jesus predicted the images of his corpse. See: "The Enigma of the Sign of Jonah," BSTS Shroud Newsletter, Summer 2023, no. 97, pg. 42.

[@georgegrubbs2966]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 Completely incorrect. First, the results of the all the recent analyses of the SOT is completely undetermined. No facts here. Even if it was Jesus' burial shroud, it does not prove Jesus performed miracles. It could have been someone else's shroud; perhaps a magician that the Romans crucified. The shround really proves nothing. Jesus was a human being who caused too much trouble for the Sanhedrin and the Romans, so he was crucified. He was buried in a termorary tomb, then moved to a permanent one. He is not the Son of God and is not God, and is not part of the Trinity, which is a human construct.

[@beverlyhurd8556]

@@jeffreyerwin3665 You're arguing with an atheist, Jeff. And we all know that no atheist is every going to admit it when they are wrong about anything at all when it comes to Jesus or God or the Bible. They like to make up their own stories about Jesus and his life and crucifixion just to please themselves. Atheists demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom if ever use.

[@geomicpri]

Maybe this is the first you’re hearing of the Shroud, but there is a 3D encoded image visible on the shroud of an unknown nature & origin. It is not the product of a pigment or colouration. The leading contemporary theory is that it was caused by electrons in the linen reacting to the simultaneous decay of every atom in the man’s body.

[@wipo3654]

​@@geomicpri Maybe it is the first time you have heard that there is a Scripture. And there is ... NO SHROUD mentioned in the gospels anyway! Read and trust the Bible. I started to think about the Shroud of Turin some weeks ago because quite a lot of KZbin channels claim that it is 100 % sure the burial cloth of Jesus. So I did what Paul said: 1Thess 5,21 but test them all; hold on to what is good, I searched for all the relevant "burial" verses in the gospels and I did some basic Greek word studies on BibleHub (free bible study webpage - select Interlinear): Mk 15,46 And Joseph bought linen cloth [SINDONA, singular] and taking him down, wrapped [ENEILESEN] him in the linen cloth [SINDONI, singular] and laid him in a tomb that had been cut out of the rock. And he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. Joh 19,39 Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds in weight [about 32 kg]. Joh 19,40 So they took the body of Jesus and bound [EDESAN] it in linen cloths [OTHONIOIS, plural] with [META] the spices [AROMATON; about 32 kg], as is the burial custom of the Jews. Mk 16,1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices [AROMATA] so that they might go to anoint [ALEIPSOSIN] Jesus. (1) SINDON > "a linen cloth" or "linen cloth"? I quickly recognised that some Bible translations of SINDON are adding the indefinite article "a" although there is no one in the original Greek texts. Is it mandatory to add "a" and is it also mandatory to understand "the" plus noun singular always as one piece only? If SINDON must be understood as one large piece linen only (like the Shroud) - where the bandages (OTHONION) and the head cloth (SOUDARION) came from? Why the gospel of John does not mention SINDON? Answer: In the context SINDON must be translated/understood as a general material description "linen cloth" and it means all the needed burial cloth (bandages and head cloth). Joseph for sure knew what was needed according to the burial custom of (rich) Jews at that time. And John didn't mention SINDON in his gospel because he also didn't mention the purchase of Joseph. (2) SPICES > stains/particles Nicodemus organised a 32 kg sticky mixture of myrrh and aloes. Together with Joseph they wrapped/bound the body in linen (OTHONION) WITH the spices. They completed this work according to the burial custom of Jews at that time. STURP (Shroud Of Turin Research Program) used many analytical methods and finally it was even emphasised that not any trace of spices/oils were detected!? But there must be at least non degradable stains/particles of spices (like for blood)!? And if in the meantime a failure of STURP was revealed - how the adding of spices worked with something like the Shroud of Turin? Answer: OTHONION means bandages and the spices were put between the bandages when the body - EXCEPT THE HEAD - was wrapped/bound by Joseph and Nicodemus. This was done promptly after taking Jesus from the cross. (3) SOUDARION Shroud If the complete body of Jesus was already wrapped/bound by Joseph and Nicodemus in something like the Shroud - why there was a need to add a head cloth (SOUDARION)? Also Lazarus wore a head cloth when coming out the tomb himself (Joh 11,44). And despite the burial cloth Lazarus was able to stand up and to go! Answer: The SOUDARION was added also promply to cover the head and it remained there until the resurrection. (4) WOMEN > anointing Jesus was transported to the nearby rock-tomb and was laid in there. Some of the women observed this and nothing else was done in the tomb. After Sabbath the women came with the intention to anoint Jesus. How this worked if the body was completely wrapped/bound in something like the Shroud with the spices? To get access at least to his head they would have had to remove/destroy the wrapping and uncovering a naked man underneath!? Answer: The women came after Sabbath with the intention to anoint Jesus' head (hair/face). This was an act of honour that could have been done easily by removing/readding the head cloth (SOUDARION). But it would have been impossible and illogic with something like the Shroud of Turin. So there is no need to trust a still doubtful and controversial relic like the Shroud of Turin to be the authentic burial cloth of Jesus: Joh 20,29 Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’

[@georgegrubbs2966]

Amazing the time and expense put in over centuries about a fake piece of cloth.

[@beverlyhurd8556]

What fake piece of cloth are you referring to? I hope that you are not idiot enough to want to claim that the Shroud of Turin is a fake and that it does not even exist. You cannot be that dumb now, can you?

[@mikesewchok5978]

An interesting comment. Your evidence?

[@beverlyhurd8556]

@@mikesewchok5978 You know that he has no evidence. Since when is proof necessary to a brainless atheist?

[@mikesewchok5978]

@@beverlyhurd8556 Yes, good point!

[@georgegrubbs2966]

@@mikesewchok5978 "n 1988, an international team of scientific experts performed radiocarbon dating on snippets of the Shroud of Turin. The results showed that the famous cloth did not date back to the time of Christ’s crucifixion in the first century A.D. In fact, the cloth seemed to have been manufactured sometime between 1260 and 1390 A.D. The team concluded the Shroud was nothing more than a medieval hoax." Since that time, various people have suggested that perhaps bacteria influence the dating - they have no proof that bacteria did influence the dating. Perhaps this, perhaps that - no evidence that anything influenced the dating.