Is the Tolkien Estate About to Start Aggressively Enforcing Copyright and Trademark?

[@skatemetrix]

Tolkien Estate after faithfully safeguarding the franchise for so long, having given fans leeway and finally dealing with Amazon and protecting the integrity of Tolkien's work for so long: The ring is mine!

[@f2pcoder92]

lmao they sold out. and most prominent people that propagate rings of power have been either bought of or blackmailed so yeah.

[@TheBrokenSword]

11:11 - we were the first to get told to stop using The One Ring inscription 🤦‍♂🤦‍♂ (among other things 😂)

[@TalesoftheRings]

😮

[@grazareth]

I immediately thought of you guys 😅

[@TheBrokenSword]

😂 we also got done for our old name which had 'Middle Earth' in it because of the trademark they have like you mention... haha

[@TheBrokenSword]

@@grazareth 😂

[@Trigm]

@@TheBrokenSword Interesting! I had thought it was due to the books by Christopher.

[@GirlNextGondor]

An enlightening and useful video in these troubled times 😅 I was struck by what you said about the wording of the answers being too generic to match the specificity of some of the questions, and I think that's part of why people are alarmed by this update even though, as you pointed out, from a legal perspective nothing much seems to have changed. I think it's strange to go to the trouble of creating an FAQ, and then fail to really answer the questions in a practical way - it may have just been shortsighted, but it does feel a little disingenuous, almost like they want to discourage fan participation, rather than providing useful clarification around what would constitute infringement.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

It DOES seem odd. That’s why I wonder if they really are gearing up for an aggressive campaign. But IMO they’d be hurting themselves if they do.

[@thegorgon7063]

My non expert view is that it has to be so generic as copyright laws vary from country to country. UK is different to US and both are different to New Zealand.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

@@TolkienLorePodcast I too believe it’s odd and the timing is interesting. I suggested to things in a FB group and was severely harangued for it… A: The Canadian copyright expires at the end of this year for The Hobbit and LR. It converts to public domain on Jan.1, 2023 ( I don’t know what significance that holds for other countries copyrights- I think many have a 70 year moratorium- if that’s the correct term- after the death of any of the authors of a published work. Tolkien was the sole author so his death in 1973 would indeed put it at 2023. B: Amazon can use these texts per their purchase of Tv rights-correct? So maybe The Estate is suspicious of some aspect of their production and is on top of it just encase.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

American copyright is dominated by Disney, who has been the primary impetus behind granting longer and longer periods, so unless Disney suddenly decides it doesn’t care or has a fall from grace, Tolkien will continue to have copyright protection in the US at least. As for Amazon, they bought the rights so there’s little the estate can do about them.

[@steve-oh4342]

I just want to know how the Tolkien estate is going to take Amazon to task for destroying a timeless literary masterpiece and it's creator's body of work. Are they going to do anything about how Amazon is mishandling the IP?

[@joshpotter9261]

It sounds like the Tolkien Estate hired the Games Workshop general clown-sel to write up their FAQ.

[@jovankovacswallis8453]

Tolkien is rolling over in his grave, seriously- all the greed and drama and bastardization of his work...we know from letters and interviews and messages in his material what kind of fabric his character was woven from...I'm sure he would be impressed by some of it too and there would be smiles, but I think there would be many guffaws and much smirking- his spirit goes on in Valinor! His eye pierces earth, cloud, and flesh!

[@valkorthegreen2275]

Abolish all intellectual property laws.

[@Leahi84]

I've never heard of anyone going after fan fiction. I seriously doubt they will pursue it that far.

[@MehIgotnothing]

Anne Rice was an absolute nightmare to her fans back in the day when it came to them writing fan fiction.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

Nintendo is infamous for going after FREE indie games made by fans for fans.

[@OneTrueVikingbard]

@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 That makes me fear for the future of Age of the Ring, Edain, Third Age Total War, all those M&B mods, and especially the open world Middle Earth RPG that I was *SO* looking forward to playing!

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

@@OneTrueVikingbard That's exactly the point. Download everything you can, buy the early physical copies before them to be """improved""".

[@hAn_TYkje]

The 3 books about a group of friends who travel to a volcano to throw a gold ring into lava was written by the guy who became popular with his 1937 children's book set in the same place but happened before the the gold ring story.

[@OneMoreDesu]

Surely then the Amazon series and it's reception is damaging the brand and is a violation of its licence to use the content. What protections are in place for licenced works that do go on to besmirch the brand?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

You’re conflating the two things. Copyright isn’t about branding, and it’s a portion of that right that Amazon has, not necessarily Trademark.

[@OneMoreDesu]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Was hoping for a miracle XD

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

It’s still possible, it all depends on what’s in the contract. But since they got this out without a veto from the estate I don’t see the estate suddenly becoming hardline with lore accuracy.

[@redsabre69]

@S. Peter pretty sure its the political leftism injected into Tolkien that did it

[@phoule76]

Methinks our favorite Tolkien scholar is going to be strong-armed into changing his channel name, unfortunately.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Nah. ;)

[@TYSLYS]

Standby for Queen of the Rings ...

[@thegorgon7063]

I wonder if they are preparing for JRR Tolkien's work going into the public domain next year in life + 50 countries like Canada, New Zealand and South Africa? Esp. the two most valuable bits of IP Hobbit + LotR.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

Ooh, how will that effect these lore channels??

[@kennethoxley2525]

I think they are likely to step up copyright claims, either at the behest of Amazon or because they intend to license other aspects of Tolkien's works.

[@thegorgon7063]

In life + 50 countries like Canada the Hobbit and LoTR will no longer protected by copyright next year, the only IP protection will be via trademark in those countries. Trademark law is brutal you must actively enforce your trademark or you lose it.

[@hendrikm9569]

Hey, today I finally finished the Silmarillion, and your Silmarillion Synopsis Series helped me as a reminder of all, that had happened in the previous chapters, so thank you very much. While reading, I had a thought/ theory that I quite like, and from just the Silmarillion I do not see something that disproves my theory. However, I yet haven't had the time to delve into the Unfinished Tales and HoME, so maybe there is something I yet do not know. The Theory: Facts: 1. When Carcharoth ate Berens Hand and the Silmaril, he became so wild and powerful, that the Girdle of Melian couldn't stop him. 2. When Maedhros finds out, he is not worthy of the Silmaril he jumps into a chasm filled with fire, aka. a volcano. 3. Mount Doom is the only place, where the fire is hot enough to unmake the one ring. Theory: Could it be, that Maedhros jumped into Mount Doom, and now one of the Silmaril is in the Fires of Mount Doom, thereby making the lava the hottest it is in any place? I quite like that theory, what do you think? Also I would be curious to know your opinion on Blind Guardians Nightfall in Middle Earth. That might also make for a review video, I do not know, though.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Interesting theory, but I don’t think the chasm is a volcano; it’s more likely an opening in the earth caused by the War of Wrath, which resulted in the sinking of Beleriand. And if it was a volcano, it’s much more likely to be the mountains of the Thangorodrim than Mount Doom, which would have been a VERY long journey for him to make holding that Silmaril.

[@hendrikm9569]

Okay, that makes sense, thank you very much :)

[@NotchEvident]

Led Zeppelin is totally screwed!

[@Sarah-ok6xq]

Can I purchase rights and do a shitty job at presenting Tolkien's works?

[@joejoelesh1197]

@45:54 I think they are very well informed. Informed that WB has millions of $$ to throw at lawsuits and that their job is to flag things and send an early response on the side of WB. Informed that right or wrong does not matter that much.

[@otaku-sempai2197]

Okay, I have had home-brewed content for The One Ring Roleplaying Game published in the free-to-download webzines 'Hall of Fire' and 'Other Minds'. In addition, one of these 'zines also accepted a short story (fanfic) of mine about an adventure of "the three remarkable Took sisters" set shortly before the marriage of Belladonna Took to Mister Bungo Baggins.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

Sounds likeThe Estate is going to crush it’s self. They will destroy their own brand. They will always have die hard fans but if the ability to have our fan chans and the content we now enjoy, we might be here but we will be terribly unhappy.

[@redsabre69]

I'm glad if they are, so we don 't get stupid leftism in LOTR

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

@@redsabre69 Mr Christopher's son got his own Grima, his """wife""".

[@PleaseNThankYou]

@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 and there ya go…

[@NATHANOLOGY]

Thanks for this channel. Have you considered starting a TikTok? Been noticing sharp literary commentators and exegetes starting to crop up on there, and it might be a good venue for shorter form lessons you have may. Also may expand your audience and be good for growing your KZbin and patreon! This is not an ad for TikTok btw. It’s a mixed bag. Weird place. Like all networks. …But anyway yeah I could see you thriving on there. Keep up the good work! Heck maybe you have one already and I just haven’t found it!

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I have no interest at all in TikTok. I’m too old for that 😂

[@thebrotherskrynn]

Very helpful video, thanks so much for making it, am a legal-dunce and really didn't know about this post on the estate's website. Truly hope they don't crack the whip over here on yt, that said I've done readings of the letters of Tolkien, I'm now thinking they'll need to be deleted from yt and instagram.

[@heartofahalfling3142]

Thank you for going over this. It was very helpful. I have a very new, extremely tiny channel so I may be more of a risk taker at this point. I always enjoy your videos.

[@andeeanko7079]

I just subscribed to your channel 🤗

[@heartofahalfling3142]

@@andeeanko7079 wow!!! Thank you so much!

[@squashedeyeball]

Thank you for the input! The way the phrased it does seem draconian. Someone like me who reads it, could think that it's game over: no more art, forms, websites, etc'. But as always, one needs to look into the legal rhetoric to understand it better. Nonetheless, it sounds like they are exaggerating. So hopefully they wouldn't try to go after scores of people.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

Look at Nintendo's witch hunt against free indie games.

[@DistendedPerinium]

Have you heard of a company called Games Workshop?

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

@@DistendedPerinium who wouldn't?

[@istari0]

1. Whose copyright and trademark laws apply if the alleged offender is in a different country, say the U.S., than the Tolkien Estate, which I assume is based in the U.K.? 2. I've heard of a number of musicians making music based on or inspired by Tolkien's works, some of which use words from Tolkien in the song title or lyrics, such as Isengard, Rivendell, Middle-Earth, Gondolin, Silmarillion, etc. Do they have to get a license to do this? I'm just curious; nothing I am doing could conceivably be something that the Tolkien Estate or anyone else would find of interest.

[@thegorgon7063]

Country of infringement I guess, but the internet complicates this. Next year The Hobbit and LotR become public domain in Canada, New Zealand and South Africa because they have the life + 50 years copyright. In the UK and EU that happens in 2043. The Trademarks are what will be protecting the works pretty soon. Not a lawyer BTW.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Yeah I tend to think the country of infringement would determine applicable law, but I don’t know that.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Thanks for the info

[@maximus3160]

I sure hope so. It was a major mistake to sell the rights to Zaentz in the first place. This upcoming Amazon series looks to be a steaming mess. Might as well just call it fan fiction.

[@kalcuthbert3090]

Tolkien created a universe that everyone copies , they deserve the recognition, read whole series plus silmarilion and unfinished tales at least 4 ti.es in my younger days, he writes so well you can picture his words

[@PABrewNews]

Tolkien Reading Day ! BUNCH OF COPYRIGHT BREAKING MOBSTERS!! HAHAHA!!! Cheers 🍻

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

Interesting stuff, as ever. I feel like if this charitable trust wants to enforce their rights fair play to them. With regards to language, I think of high profile case within another domain can be illuminating. World chess tried to sue various KZbin channels direct sent and uploaded, for reproducing chess games. It was found that PGNs a type of game notation, which can be viewed as another type of language, could not be subject to copyright or any other type of intellectual property. Remarkably even the players who played the games cannot copyright them. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@iplgeek]

With respect to the script, how would that affect academic publications on Tolkien’s language? I’d imagine there’s some scholarly work going on with that and they would eventually want to publish (and I can’t see a case for that negatively affecting the Tolkien Society). Perhaps the university would apply for permission beforehand?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I’m sure permission for scholarly work is routinely granted.

[@emtiger3]

Thanks!

[@hglundahl]

33:37 Donald Swann and the PJ composer are obvious exceptions since licenced, right?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Exactly.

[@hglundahl]

20:39 Would you mind taking a look at my Chronicle of Susan Pevensie, as the title character's significant other (not meaning he Rabadash figure) is one "Audoin Errol"? It _is_ on the internet.

[@hglundahl]

27:07 _And_ when Susan inherits Lucy's records as secretary for the "friends of Narnia" - this record is written in English - but in Tengwar. Lucy being, like Digory Kirke, a friend of Tolkien, while only Susan got more involved with CSL (the narrator voice in more than one Narnia saying "they later told me ..." being Digory, not Jack).

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Yeah that sounds…problematic.

[@JoeBLOWFHB]

SO MY NEW HENTAI "LUST FOR HOBBITS" IS SAFE!?!?

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

They're going after fans just like Nintendo but not after Amazon? I wonder """why"""....

[@hglundahl]

Related, not identic question : I have 9000 + posts on my several blogs. On _one_ of them, 92 out of 229 posts include this fanfiction. Can they require me to keep _all_ of my blogs strictly private, including but not limited to this one, because they could theoretically take action against the 92 posts of fan fiction, only _some_ parts of which include Audoin Errol? I think the legal answer has at least one fairly obvious ingredient, but I would like an explicit answer on your part.

[@JonPITBZN]

You must have missed the part in the beginning where he said that lawyers *never* give legal advice on their channels. I'm not a lawyer, but the real-world answer here is going to depend a lot on two factors. 1. The terms of service of the blog platform 2. Whether the several blogs are all connected to the same account on the same platform The Tolkien estate certainly can't say "we're suing to prevent this guy from ever blogging again because he created a derivative work on a blog." In the US that would be an absurd infringement against your 1st Amendment rights. However, platforms can act far in excess of what a copyright lawsuit could legally force you to do, like KZbin taking down a whole channel after three copyright strikes. So, my free legal advice from a non-lawyer is that you would be prudent to make the individual fanfiction posts private at least until we see if the Tolkien estate is actually taking action against fanfiction.

[@hglundahl]

@@JonPITBZN Thank you!

[@Memesis]

I literally thought this is a 52min video about southpark

[@ramonvives1674]

The Lord of you know what is a book written by you know who.

[@mneumayr]

Regarding Fair Use: It’s something really uniquely US. UK has “fair dealing” which is similar to Fair Use, but it’s narrower and targeted at very specific exemptions. In mist countries in the EU it’s even more narrow.

[@hglundahl]

50:35 Getting legal advice on these matters in France, for a homeless person - do you know where I could get one lawyer pro bono? Oh, if it were about DALO (opposable right to lodgement) or my rights as a non-EU immigrant (but I'm from Sweden in Schengen), no problem. I'd walk straight to one of the associations that do charitable work for the homeless. But these don't specialise in my case, as a writer - and, as said, mainly of not fan fiction, mainly of non-fiction.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I have no knowledge of how to find an IP lawyer in my own jurisdiction, let alone Europe lol.

[@BobBob-px3mx]

In my home town (in France) anyone can go to the Barreau, which is a grouping of lawyers (fr. avocats), and can request a free 1 hour consultation with a lawyer.

[@hglundahl]

Yes, @@BobBob-px3mx ... but a one hour consultation is, as the name suggests, a consultation. Do you know cases which during such hours have been taken on, for free, or at least no pre-agreed payment, during such an hour?

[@kasperjohannessen2855]

What happend to GirlNextGondor’s channel?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

She switched her videos to private while she sorts out some artwork permission stuff. Nothing to panic about :)

[@kasperjohannessen2855]

Thank you.

[@Darkwintre]

I have been wondering about this. So Bad Reboot up to their 25% difference schtick?

[@Darkwintre]

@Peak Aussieman what we're witnessing I'm afraid. The appendices they've been using as an excuse for their rewrite being a primary example.

[@Darkwintre]

@Peak Aussieman Nope. It will be interesting If this was why the writing team for this season were dropped for season 2.

[@kahekilimaui450]

@Darkwintre It is FAR more than 25% off Canon. It's actually closer to 85% off And the remaining 15% Is exclusively...the names that they are using.

[@Darkwintre]

@@kahekilimaui450 as I said they're using the appendices as an excuse. How much of the rights that they DO have does that amount to in comparison?

[@kahekilimaui450]

LOL! I see that the majority of us, me as well, went WAY OFF topic because of our continuing angnst concerning the new series. Apparently That is the Issue that is still holding sway over our thoughts at this time. Obviously in your recent video you already addressed this. Please Forgive our passions In rehashing this on your channel, when you are addressing an entirety different issue here. As a 60 year old, and one who has been Steeped in Tolkien's written world for over 45 years, You hold my respect and admiration.

[@tefazDK]

Midgaard/Midgård is Norse. Its literal translation is actually something like: Middle-farm. But its used to describe the world where humans live, as opposed to Asgaard/Asgård where the Gods reside.

[@aleksmaya1]

What if my surname is Tolkien? 😂😂😂

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Well what do you want to do with it? 😉

[@kahekilimaui450]

Now...I fully understanding that Amazon Actually Purchased...the rights to The Hobbit, as well as, The Downfall Of The Lord Of The Rings And The Return Of The King and its appendices. The terminology that you employed with the parameters of...Trademarks, in as much as the protection from someone using names of trademarked material and "besmirching" The good name of that trademark BY...producing "cheep Knockoffs." Are we to infer that if you purchase the rights to one part, That it is perfectly acceptable to besmirch the good name of the trademark, and that cheep Knockoffs...or for that matter Expensive Knockoffs, are part of that acceptance even if the Expensive Knockoff trespasses on areas that were not part of the purchase? I think you know what I am referring to. Please forgive my semi rhetorical question. I say "Semi" rhetorical because I do actually want to know...how they are getting away with what they are doing?

[@grazareth]

They're "getting away with what they're doing" because evidently the estate sold them the copyright license and allowed them to use the trade mark. The whole intellectual rights situation with Amazon is very nebulous and we don't know for sure what the state of play is. Most likely though it seems they have the rights to LotR (incl. Appendices) and are given additional rights to other material on a case-by-case basis. Colloquially speaking, as they sold these rights the estate basically terminated their right to claim "besmirchment", since that concern should be dealt with in the terms of the licensing agreement. We can only assume that the estate was satisfied with the vision Amazon laid out for them.

[@Darkwintre]

@@grazareth it would be interesting to find out how that vision compares to what they're actually releasing?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I don’t think trademark really comes into it. What Amazon has is a license to make an adaptation which is a copyright issue. So whether that “besmirched” the original is irrelevant.

[@Darkwintre]

@@TolkienLorePodcast so whilst they say one thing to fans, they tell them something which means whatever they actually release doesn't vIolate their agreement with them? Still curious given the media reaction to Tolkien fans objecting to their "fan fiction"

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Well it’s kind of nebulous as mentioned by someone else because we don’t know the exact agreement reached.

[@thegoblonoid]

So is fan art the same as fan fiction? Because that would suck if you can't make Tolkien artworks and post them online anymore.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

That may depend on jurisdiction, but it at least potentially is a derivative work. I’m not knowledgeable enough to answer that question unfortunately.

[@thefalsekingslayer3717]

I mean from what I understand in 20 years it becomes public property anyway

[@charleswolfe8896]

What I want to know is if the name of Hobbit is trademarked since every fantasy setting nowadays seem to use Orcs as a race and they don't seemed to be

[@katielw19]

How do you think the following might play into what they can and can't do? (Not asking for legal advice, just as a curious fan fiction reader). These are the specific Fair Use, Fair Trade, and Fair Dealing laws (US - but UK and Canada mentioned) and Supreme Court Case related to fan fiction: archiveofourown.org/admin_posts/9918 I'm curious to know what you think.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

There’s definitely a good argument that fan fiction is fair use, but I suspect because it’s more in the nature of a derivative work that the analysis might not be so simple. The creation of fan fiction necessarily limits the ability of the copyright owner to make their own derivative works so I think there is an argument that fan fiction undercuts the market for the copyrighted work in that it affects the market for potential prequels, sequels, etc. does that argument hold water? Having witnessed the success of the Star Wars franchise after the original trilogy I suspect not, but that doesn’t mean a court wouldn’t buy it.

[@bjdenil]

I just hope they crush rings of power into oblivion.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

No reason to expect that.

[@bjdenil]

@Tolkien Lore a man can hope/ wish.

[@AngelaMihai]

My personal 'reading' is: the new show sounds a lot like fan fic,as we all know they did not have the rights to the sillmarilion, and made up a story that would fit in the tolkien universe, I think the quote was 'the novel that Tolkien never wrote'. For example, we know the female dwarf is named Dissa, pretty close to Dis (the mother of Fili and Kili - copyright???). So, my opinion is they will go after Amazon. The FAQ about the use conlangs and the music one also point in that direction, again in my opinion.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Amazon bought a license though so they can’t go after them, legally at least.

[@ecthelionofthefountain8267]

@@TolkienLorePodcast The Tolkien Estate do actually have veto. If they think the Amazon series egregiously contradicts Tolkien's lore they do have the power to stop it.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Yeah but that’s a proactive thing, not a retroactive thing. Now that the season has been filmed they can’t do anything about it.

[@ecthelionofthefountain8267]

@@TolkienLorePodcast They could potentially stop the next 4 seasons from happening

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

No, they can’t. Five seasons was part of the deal. They can’t renege on that. And with the apparently minimal veto exercised thus far I don’t anticipate much in the future.

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

So what happens to a crypto currency called Elrond?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Probably in trouble if Elrond has been trademarked.

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

@@TolkienLorePodcast I think there actually is one. Always wondered how they got away with it.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

By not being noticed lol

[@TalesoftheRings]

Bro, will you be my lawyer? 🤣

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Can’t, due to outside work restrictions at my current job, even if I wanted to (which I don’t-I scare myself to death just fighting claims on YT 😅)

[@TalesoftheRings]

@@TolkienLorePodcast I'm kidding of course. As always you explained in detail something I thought about a lot. I had a couple of names for the channel that I changed just because of these problems.

[@asherpikesgoldenmoralcinem5770]

Hey my friend I’m a film director making a full SILMARILLION Arthouse film. Since i haven’t found your personal contact I have to type this here. Since you run a great channel based on TOLKIEN and his work, I would love to tell you more about this project. After which if you find the Film Pitch to be of high calibre, I hope dearly that you will announce this project for all fans of Tolkien to hear, as this is the start of a monumental journey. This will not be an official film or a Fan film, but an Arthouse film. Eagerly awaiting your reply. Sincerely Asher Pike

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

If you watched this video you’d know you could never publish it without running afoul of copyright. Much as I’d love for this to work out, I very much doubt the a Tolkien Estate would ever allow it.

[@asherpikesgoldenmoralcinem5770]

@@TolkienLorePodcast I had seen this video and the threat of copyright ban brought is very large. However there is an artistic way around this, so that it can be posted publicly without being taken down. You see the film has no dialogue and no mention or appearance of any of the names in the Silmarillion. It will be made of 500-1000 artistic shots, showing all the events of the Silmarillion in close ups and wide shots in full live action, however with no mentioning of the names. Since Tolkien only gave rough guidelines of the visual style of his world and it’s properties, there is plenty of room to make it safe visually from any persecution. Or else if they could persecute the looks of dwarves, elves, castles, great battles and dragons, the devil, God, angels and more then they would be able to do so for all other fantasy properties. However since they can’t, visually this film will be %100 safe. As for the audio of the film, I am creating a large album of songs with sung lyrics. These lyrics will poetically describe all the events of the illustrations without directly mentioning any names. However the songs will be able to mention elves, dwarves, kings. In place of Melkor will be possible names like “The Shadow of the Void” and for Illuvatar and the flame imperishable will be “The Dawn Unfading.” For The characters their personality and positions will be described just as Tolkien describes them too, however with no direct naming there is no way for the film to be persecuted. As for the overall story, that too will be made as it is in the book, however in a way that it cannot be persecuted. There are many ways this can be done, currently I’m most likely going to go the route of “performance / album rollout.” That is, at the start will be a great orchestra with me and others as singers / performers. They will be singing to God, like at the start of the Silmarillion. The songs will be describing the story with no naming, and each story will be a music video with the visuals. These music videos may not be in story order, they may go in the order of how the performance went as Tolkien described it. At first with an in tune and beautiful song / visually peaceful stories from The Book, then Melkor intervenes and stories filled with evil are shown. Then God raises another note and more loving stories are shown, then Melkor rises up against him in song, and even more evil stories are shown visually. In this kind of order the film cannot be persecuted as I will make sure what is sung and shown cannot be. It will also still be incredibly faithful to Tolkiens vision, as the story in essence is of The Angels creating the world in song, and at that time in the Silmarillion there were no names of the characters in later stories shown. So from the perspective of the performers / angels / “Valar” they woudnt know the names of the people in the world they sung into existence. Perhaps even some parts of the story shown may not be too accurate to the story, since Tolkien believed free will plays a great part in our lives even though he believed it also was destined, he believed there was a balance of both. So at the time of the AINULINDALË being sung, some things might not be accurate to how it happened because some characters in Tolkiens world may have changed how their lives were intended when they were described at the performance of the AINULINDALË. So for example when the story of the journey to steal a Silmaril from Morgoths crown is sung into the visuals, perhaps two “gems” are intended to be stolen in the lyrics and this is shown, but in the actual story the characters free will changed this and only one was stolen. So yeah this among other things is how I plan to make this film as accurate as possible to Tolkiens vision and also his beliefs while also being impossible to persecute. I hope this pitch sounds good to you as well my friend! Any criticism and ideas are very welcome, again I’m taking this risk cause I really don’t think this film will be made in full faith to Tolkien in a long time if ever by a Hollywood production company.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

That still sounds identifiable enough to violate copyright, though you *might* manage to not get caught by anyone looking for violations.

[@asherpikesgoldenmoralcinem5770]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Yeah true enough, if it does get blocked somehow then the plan B would be to just show it on a private server. Nonetheless my friend! I have done a fantasy film on my channel to train my skills, just released yesterday on my birthday. If you think the visual styles there are good and believe I can truly make this Silmarillion film. I hope it would be worthy news for you to announce. If not then regardless I’m excited to see more future vids from you!

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

What’s the link to the one you just did? I’ll give it a watch.

[@timhutzler9441]

It is obvious that the 'owners' care more about the $$$ and care less about the author, RIP. 😕

[@djohnston6856]

To what extent has Tolkien's work become a mythology? As a mythology with a strong cultural presence it's going to be tweaked, reinterpreted, retold, reinvented just like any mythology.

[@jamesmaybrick2001]

Thats the interesting conflict at the heart of it all. We know that Tolkein intended his works to be a mythology. He cannot have been unaware of how mythology changes according to the times (no true Englishman would or could be unaware of Arthurian Mythology for example). But he also hated people fucking with his work. The conflict as I see it can be resolved by the method of change. Is it a story changing with the times in its own time (see early Christianity fow how myths evolve) to a story being manipulated by a gigantic mega corp to make even more mega cash and push a political agenda.

[@ForbiddenFollyFollower]

@@jamesmaybrick2001 And appealing to the lowest common denominator which is the opposite of what Tolkien wanted

[@Golux5]

Tolkien reading day?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

March 25, I believe created by the Tolkien Society as a way of celebrating his works.

[@neonemptiness8152]

You can’t invent a language and ban its use surely ?

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Depends on the use. Private amusement is fine. Anything published is…questionable.

[@gang-ridertv5433]

🇺🇦

[@laura-bianca3130]

Please say they cancel Amazon and content creators who sold their soul for cash 🙏🏻 they should protect Tolkien's work

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

They can’t really do anything to Amazon since they bought the rights to make the series.

[@flik221]

The Tolkien estate has failed quite hard so far

[@ffnendhgrgd]

So, when a tv show does something "the fans" don't like, it's "respect the author's legacy". When the estate lays down the law it's "how dare you?"

[@PleaseNThankYou]

Who’s side are you on sir?

[@PleaseNThankYou]

And another point, the TRUE fans want canon and familiarity of the written text. We honor the source. We do not want to be restricted from sharing the stories AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. Nor do we want bastardization of Professor Tolkien’s KNOWN and DOCUMENTED wishes. Personally, I hope the reason for this apparent crack down is to cut Amazon off at the knees if it steps a single toe over the agreed upon red line!

[@TheDanEdwards]

​@@PleaseNThankYou " the TRUE fans" - there is no true Scotsman. " I hope the reason for this apparent crack down is to cut Amazon off at the knees" - your issues are of no concern to the Tolkien Estate.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

@@TheDanEdwards I’m afraid your reference to “Scotsman” goes over my head but I agree that The Estate could give a damn about what Gigi thinks. However I am unsure as to why you are concerned with my comment. Unless you are charged with running interference for either the Estate or Amazon. The latter for which you should have your own fan card pulled. I feel you are more personally bothered by my comment than anything else. Pardon me if I don’t stay up to continue this thread.

[@OneMoreDesu]

@@PleaseNThankYou He's saying that you can't speak for true fans because the definition of such isn't established

[@PleaseNThankYou]

So how does this copyright stuff effect you and other lore channels ability to do what you’ve already been doing for years??

[@PleaseNThankYou]

@@kahekilimaui450 Not really. He was somewhat vague and you are very unfriendly, unhelpful, and condescending.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

That’s a multi-faceted question. Some channels might run afoul of trademark due to their channel branding or merch they sell, others might have significant copyright issues on some videos (but almost certainly not all) depending on the contents of the video. As any good lawyer will tell you, you need to be very specific in your question to get a good answer, and the usual answer to a broad question is “it depends.”

[@kahekilimaui450]

@@PleaseNThankYou My apologies. I was out of sorts last night. I shall remove my less than helpful comment.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

@@kahekilimaui450 “Apology accepted.”- Balin (movie)

[@PleaseNThankYou]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Well, more specifically and from a lay perspective i suppose, I wonder how and reading of any text and graphics/text of quoted material will be impacted. Also for musicians/vocalists to sing songs specifically of copyrighted material (because there is a great deal of that!) will effect them and does monetization of the channel cause cause a different set of use rules. Also, will things that have been up on you tube for years without problem now be dealt some blow. I recall HoME and HotA got multiple strikes and rebranded to some extend. All their videos had to be reworked. Well, all, most, many, however they’ve had to deal with it. I’m not sure how many of their problems arose from Estate copyrights v. but some did. So I just don’t want to see anyones life work be trashed and I don’t want to lose any from this lovely community.

[@jaredmarkham7300]

First

[@garydmcgath]

Thanks!