Is The Top Split Cleaner? (iRacing)

[@thestaggy]

8:56 Bless the street rookies. They haven't yet figured out that you can also press the brake pedal.

[@TacticalCardboard]

The highlight of this carnage report is the Corvette getting punted. Just have to say that.

[@deadleg6]

Highlight for me was 8:44. The guy drove under 2 airborne cars.

[@jrmiledriver88]

2Cups that was for the lead too

[@angryginger791]

I like the BMW GT3 that grazed the wall on the way into the pit and did a barrel roll. LOL

[@nuberacing6513]

I liked the charts :)

[@One_Guy]

thanks for your datamining efforts on this! your insight into all the nuances of iracing are enjoyable!

[@iRacerJared]

Once you hit 5k+ iRating you don’t even pay attention to safety rating because if you crash you lose a lot of iRating. So in order to get into the higher split you have to be somewhat clean.

[@togera77]

unfortunately, most of the top split drivers doesn't care about racing respectfully. they race for their ego. that's why there's so much more incidents. they want to race competitively without care for the other racers (special mention to Carlo Labati). they're too confident and when they see a little door open, they dive into it without thinking of the consequences. and when they're taken out because of their behaviour, they blame the other racers. that's sad…

[@TwistLosi]

Same thing happens in real racing also at the top level.

[@togera77]

@@TwistLosi in some series, yes. But there is still more respect than in the virtual world due to a better regulation than in video games

[@willlongden477]

coming from real life racing, I often get people in Iracing saying i'm really aggressive (yet it is very very rare i actually crash while making a move) in Real life, it can be "after you sir", you pay huge amounts of money to be there and have that opportunity , if there's an opportunity for me to have a better day at the cost of someone else you know i'm gonna take it I cant afford to be polite and im not paying to race just so someone can win against a bigger grid, and, every. single. racer. on my grid would do the same to me in a heartbeat if i'm in an Iracing race I DO NOT and will NEVER care about SR, the target is always to finish as fast as possible/relative to the other drivers within the rules, if its within the rules and won't damage the car you bet its on all comes back to the good ol saying "rubbin's racing" and “If you no longer go for a gap which exists you are no longer a racing driver” regarding top splits having more inc points, i've observed something unique from iracing where, in the lower classes drivers often do really weird stuff to stay on the racing surface, to avoid a 1x and save their SR rather than running a tyre off track and keeping it pinned, this saves in the instant, but when repeated, often leads to being rear ended when your suddenly doing 20mph slower than pace on the racing line swerving unpredictably, OR a crash because youve just given the car all kinds of crazy unsettling inputs this 1 4x will be likely lower than the consistent dipping off the racing surface (i average an off track every ~3laps in sprint racing and 15laps in endurance) but will be race ending for usually multiple drivers or at the very best, destroy their result

[@pox87]

What boggles the mind is that the Iracing devs, which most likely have automated these sort of statistics, simply seem to just prefer to ignore the evidence. Kudos to Emptybox for manually providing what should, in a fair software, the result of a simple database query...

[@TacticalCardboard]

I believe they believe that by making it easy for everyone it helps the bottom line, when it could perhaps be argued that when your product is so dependent on this one key feature that when it isn't delivering the premium it once used to could be far more detrimental.

[@Chenstrapftw]

Emptybox: "Oval topslits are usually cleaner" Indycar guys: "Hold my beer"

[@TacticalCardboard]

poosh poosh

[@Racin3]

The truth hurts so much.

[@humbellie7208]

Avg. top split IR In Indy tend to be LOWER than that of the Nascar series. that and its a C class series when it should be A class IMO. either way this was pretty spot on by Empty Box. well done sir *clap clap

[@axemanracing6222]

Empty Box, my frrrriend, poosh poosh

[@IOwnCalculus]

I love me some Indyfixed but... goddamn.

[@burnsracing8205]

If there's two splits then top split is best, three splits & 2nd is best. The higher up the chain you go the more aggressive drivers tend to be, I think it's an ego thing & they will push more & go for more questionable moves. I think this also ties in with your theory they don't care about their SR. One factor I think you missed is more people crashing out in lower splits, this removes them from the race & their potential to accrue more incidents is reduced. Look at the % lead lap data, this gives some indication of how many are basically out of the race & often this is pretty early on too. I think this partly explains lower incident counts in lower splits.

[@XenonArcher]

i mean, watch any jimmy broadbent endurence race. theres always incidents, some even caused by the jimmer. i personally think theres no definitive answer. id say this data will most likely shift from week to week.

[@mikepsychles]

Good point on the DNFs and it's a shame to consider how that could impact the analysis done by Empty Box. On the other hand, there is probably (and hopefully) a significant correlation between the number of early retirees (due to flagrantly poor driving/behavior) and those same drivers not returning to further impact the data.

[@krilin84]

Good job bringing this to light. Hope iRacing will consider working on a solution for the SR system, so that it starts to matter to race more cleanly.

[@RichieSpeed]

It's true, higher iRating drivers are more likely to push harder, take more risks and generally care less. The same is true for real drivers too. All of the drivers at a high level are at 100% commitment during a race. The main problem for me is not driver aggression in iRacing. Unless you're in delicate formula cars, real racing is usually fucking tough and involves a lot of contact and bullying. The problem is netcode, tyre model and ridiculous car to car interaction in iRacing. In real life you can hit HARD into other cars. Literally bounce off eachother, punt into corners, rub down straights, give big hits that get the other car loose. You can do all of that whilst both cars still stay on track and continue racing. In iRacing this happens: Step 1: Light contact Step 2: Light contact leads to both cars reacting violently, pinging in opposite directions. Cars react as if they have no mass. Step 3: Impact causes tyre model to go into "slip" which in iRacing is rarely recoverable Step 4: One or both cars catapult off the track with the most violent tank slappers you will ever see Step 5: Other cars get tangled, some flip, some enter lower atmosphere, the usual chain reaction If cars reacted as they should, you wouldn't see half of the incidents. Firstly, people would be able to recover slides far, far easier, including slides caused by contact. Second, contact would upset cars much less severely, meaning you could actually rub/bump without causing huge wrecks. It's all well and good looking at drivers, and many do still make stupid decisions, but it doesn't help that in iRacing, the smallest mistake, the smallest slide and the smallest contact almost always lead to the biggest crashes. Watch BTCC or any GT series if you want to see how cars react to contact. Or go to your local club races and watch a grid of 50 MX5's smash into eachother for 20 minutes, and miraculously none of them will spin off as if they got hit by a red turtle or cause 20 car pileups with some launching into the ISS.

[@benjohnson5222]

Mad props for the spreadsheeting work (this video and the does iRating matter video). Both videos give great context to what iRating is for and to debunk the do splits matter argument.

[@RexJava1975]

Thanks for all you do. I don't always agree with your conclusions, but you're usually spot on. And if I may pay you a compliment, I think you're a better racer than you think you are. You remind me of Bobby Rahal. Wasn't usually the fastest guy on the track, but his incredible consistency won him a lot of races and 2 championships. And, of course, the 1986 Indy 500. Also, your AOWR series on the history of CART was amazing, and highly informative. But then, you always are. See you on the track!

[@tatorb6623]

Is this thesis entering peer view? 😂😂 good job man!

[@TacticalCardboard]

Pretty much!

[@Pook54]

I depends a lot on the series I think. The more competitive series like GT3 or Skippies attract the 'win at all cost' drivers, whereas the quieter series tend to have more gentleman racers who just enjoy the car. The other thing is for the more popular series you might get another race in an hour, while in the less popular series you might only get one or two races a week. The Oval vs Road difference is interesting (especially having watched your top split oval races), but I guess that as the racing is amost always close, you have to be able to race cleanly in order to accrue irating on the Oval side, whereas on the Road side if you're fast enough you can start a bunch of races from pole and never have to go near another car. btw, you get a thumbs up just for the extended carnage report.

[@fixedfrank]

And I thought the use of spreadsheets for fantasy football was torture! Good on, ya for crunching the numbers. Decided to try iRacing three weeks ago (three month newbie promo). Now that I have my D license, trying to decide if I should extend subscription beyond. So far learning tracks and see if I like dirt oval racing. Love your content, looking forward to more insights.

[@IthacaDon]

Gave you a thumbs up before I started to write. Didn't look at spreadsheet but based on the skip barber numbers I saw that the range of iR was 6000+ to ~2200 which to me is a big difference. By definition of iR the guys with the higher number are finishing closer to the top more often. That means they aren't getting taken out of the race by incidents. If you were to look at the top 5 finishers of each split I bet they are all the same. My experience over my 5 years of iRacing is in a competitive series such as GT3 or IMSA I have to do 3 or 4 races before I have a clean race. Racing SRF for example the probability of a single clean race is much higher. Bottom line mid pack racers in any split are more likely to wreck.

[@TacticalCardboard]

I wanted to pull the SRF data (for my money still the best overall environment in iRacing with a super fun car if you like it's quirks) but there were a few weeks that didn't split often enough (or with full grids in multiple splits) that I felt it was a good place to gather data on.

[@serya]

iRacing should hire you as a consultant. This is impressive.

[@in3kro274]

i'm still @ 12:43 but I do have one thing to say, higher split drivers tend to do off-tracks more often to gain a competitive edge sacrificing some safety rating in the process. After all, it's all about going faster, and if you dont have loss of control or crashes (which would destroy your race), then you can do quite a few off-tracks. As a league racer this happens all the time, we are given 16 incidents for 8 laps at spa and we just maximize those off-tracks to be faster than those arround us xD

[@konartist206]

Idk how I got here or what a split is in racing but, I stayed to watch ppl get murdered by other cars lol Edit: Aw RIP @14:20 I'll leave you to it ladies and gentlemen 🙋

[@sameermohideen4913]

KoNarTisT206 Honest person. I like you.

[@Alarisico]

For me as an average driver i also noticed that if i get in the top split(road course) a lot of drivers are much more aggressive, which result often in bad driving behavior. They don't seem to mind the incidents because they so much want to keep there position or points. Also if your a bit slow they will be making ridiculous moves which they wouldn't do normally. Fun observation: If there's a populair stream or driver in the split most drivers seem to keep it much more safe than they normally would. Typical! It is just my perception so don't know if it's really true but i noticed it. Push to scream isn't used as much as normal! :-)

[@jb00035]

I think the new damage model will improve the racing when that comes in. The reality is once that's implemented, drivers will suffer greater consequences, their races will be ended a lot quicker. Races ending quicker means more iRating and SR loss, and no one wants that. I am hoping this is the case so that Official Racing can return to it's previous glory!

[@TacticalCardboard]

If anything races will be ended a lot less quickly. If things actually work properly it should hopefully put (nearly) an end to the meatball for totally insignificant damage, or the wheel being cranked hard over on you from routine bumping. And if it translates to car contact improvements (which I expect) it'll really help calm the netcode incidents as the cars should have more meat to them rather than being pretty much weightless.

[@Zach636465]

You realize this goes both ways, right? Your race will be ended sooner and you will suffer greater consequences for someone else's mistake, too, if they involve you... and how is that going to make your experience better?

[@jb00035]

@@Zach636465 The argument we are both trying to make is that greater consequences will encourage people to not make the mistakes in the first place, and thus better racing will occur.

[@BadGrrmmr]

Lower splits are cleaner due to lower SR and trying to move up Licence grades.

[@thunderhead6133]

I would really be interested to see if the realistic damage models will fix some of the incident points. Also I feel that if iracing made you do a time trial before you could race the series to gather data about your lap times and how consistent you are, then correlate that with your irating you could get some better fields. Then they can base your split placement off of four data points instead of two. Fastest lap, Lap time deviation, Incident points, and then finally your irating. If you can get fast consistent guys together as the top split no matter the irating then I feel the races would be better.

[@dmnfrancisco]

Actually, it's pretty simple I think. In Road, there are more off-tracks and top split drivers drive more on the limit, therefore more off-tracks. I mainly race the Skip Barber and that's my experience. I've crashed out of a race once since March and I still have 3/4 incident points per race pretty systematically.

[@TacticalCardboard]

People don't get off tracks because "they drive more on the limit". People forget the "limit" is for the vast majority of us "personal skill" defined, rather than car defined. If the slow guys weren't trying their damnedest they'd all have 0x and never run off track, but we all know that isn't the case.

[@tombrady2396]

@@TacticalCardboard "there is no appreciable difference in the quality of racing between splits on the road side".... how exactly are you quantifying "quality"? Considering we are racing here, I would include lap times when trying to define "quality". Correlation isnt always causation. If you would watch any real world races, guys who get paid, its very common for incidents/accidents to happen during a race. Human error will always be present, considering we are in fact humans. Please spend a season in a proper bottom split then the following in a proper top split and then you can properly report back on the "quality". #NumbersNeverLieButTheyDontAlwaysTellTheTruth

[@maxversthappening8166]

I’ve seen this common opinion and I agree, people in top splits tend to have some nasty egos. Intentional wrecking and frustration is annoying common in some road series. They also have gotten to high SR and IR so they could care less about taking people out, which you talked about in the vid

[@IcemanBogs]

Another great stat video man. I Would say I completely agree with you on the oval side as that’s where I race. I’ve honestly had a lot of great racing. Biggest thing that causes wrecks on the oval side is lapped cars normally(I run all the short track series the most). Not that this changes any of the stats, just figured I would put it out there for you. On the ride side any chance the lower splits have less incidents due to guys first wreck killing their car? Even if that is the case, I’d say most guys careless about their SR, as long as they aren’t getting relegated they just care about IR. Anyway thanks for the info man, definitely a cool deep dive.

[@Sil2ntScott]

From my experience in racing in top split consistently and racing in various splits below that before( all of this is oval experience) through out the week, Top split is a group of guys who can be patient, skillful, and know all the basics in racing. But these same guys also know the limit of that car they are driving( for the most part) but can over step those limits because orating in top split is way more important to stay in top split. So you will have a car #1 sometimes do some crazy moves Wether those moves work depends on the other skillful drivers around him being aware of the move he is trying to make ahead of time. I think the guys in top split also practice and setup there cars a lot more toward the knife edge. So risks of over stepping limits happens a lot. But that’s why a lot of us practice 7 to 15hrs a week figuring out a track just to be 5 tenths off by the race weekend. But this is my opinion based of my experiences. My irating has been as high as 4700 and above. While after certain track weeks I dropped to around 2700 depending on how bad I keep trying to get back to 3000 that day lol. Overall top split in my opinion can be overrated in day to day series. But can be great in week to week series Also safety rating is nothing with top split. Just keep it above 3 and you will be fine. So Unless iracing changes it. Safety rating or no rating

[@PazLeBon]

many of the top split guys can hotlap against lower rated drivers but when all the hotlappers are together, carnage.

[@daltonbedore8396]

i really wonder if iRacing head honchos know how dissatisfying their rating system is, and that multiple competitors are very actively developing newer ones...

[@thxman1968]

I'd be a very interested party.

[@BrKnOblivion]

@@thxman1968 You and me both. I've been pissed off with the Road ruleset for 2yrs now. Combine that with an ineffective SR system and an utterly ridiculous DQ system and it doesn't lead to satisfying racing when pressured by the DQ for no reason other than high pings or some rough luck in T1.

[@vMaxDaniel]

Watching all these wrecks (graphically and cars flying out of the race track), it seems NR2003 with a lot of mods! 😁

[@DiegoRuiz1991]

Well, iRacing uses A LOT of the code from NR2003. Graphics are from NR2003, cameras too, the HUD is very close to NR2003 in a few things too.

[@vMaxDaniel]

@@DiegoRuiz1991 well, I know! 😅

[@BarryJowers]

In my experience the top split has almost always been one of the worst with too many wrecks while in the lower splits drivers seem to drive more cautiously and give each other room because they are close to that cut-off line of being sent down a class.

[@mattpatterson29]

They're gonna put you in the gulag if you keep this up lmao

[@TacticalCardboard]

I know they can't stand me, and part of me really, really enjoys it.

[@sideslick1024]

@@TacticalCardboard they should realize that if it wasn't for you, they wouldn't have my money, lmao.

[@XenonArcher]

Tbh Matt, i dont thik the IRacing devs like that many IRacing content creators because a lot of them from what ive seen have big issues with the game. like, you want them to update all of this license and incident point stuff (and rightfully so) and Jimmy Broadbent cant stand the terrible damage model and is more than happy to be vocal about it

[@Blueduckgorrilla3]

I've never had a successful protest, in that I've filled out all of the fields and clicked submit only to be greeted by an error message. This happens no matter what, whether I've waited 15 minutes or 2 days. Every single time.

[@bBersZ]

I've never protested. And anyway, after the time it takes to actually file a protest I'd be over whatever the incident was that pissed me off to begin with. But hey, that's just me.

[@dopelope_deluxe3308]

I quit iRacing because I was in the Top Split most of the time. People take it far to seriously there and I just want to have fun. But you meet the real Racing Drivers there. It was always a nice experience racing with them.

[@DiegoRuiz1991]

Do pro drivers get an automatic iRating?

[@adambrown209]

I think a big part of it is that in the top split, drivers are trying much harder and going much faster, there will be a much smaller margin for error. I also think that top split drivers to much more practice, and that means they have done countless laps without anybody to race with so they are not used to having to race someone at that certain combo. It sounds silly but in iRacing i tend to do better in races where I've only had maybe 15 minutes to practice and get used to the track rather than hours.

[@jamesmathai1138]

10:34 imagine being in vr in that car

[@kokoaliburudenda7107]

Virtual ISS tour

[@UncleNewy1]

I'm the driver in the Goonies Mazda at 7.32 that hits the out of control Porsche and rolled into the pits........I was in VR and needed a lie down when it stopped rolling. 😂

[@mattslifka]

@@UncleNewy1 What series has Mazdas on track with Porsches?

[@UncleNewy1]

@@mattslifka its a hosted league called undiecar. You can check it out on here. A racer called Ryan Hellyer sets it all up. It's good racing when I get the chance to join.....this crash was in the pre race practice session .

[@jasinow]

It seems that iracing should look into a better safety first formula that then can be divided into irating splits. The only reason for a safety rating at the moment is to keep a licence level. Which seems too easy to maintain. Diluting the reason for clean driving. And promoting splits full of Max Verstappens. In the real world it’s all about safety first speed second. And this is meant to be a racing simulator. It seems simple enough but so does a accurate tire model.

[@Ammothief41]

The issue is the fact that the higher the split the more incidence points are generated on road courses. I find it hard to believe that the fastest drivers are more likely to be the ones going off track by "pushing too hard" through a corner or elsewhere. Usually going off road doesn't lead to good race performances. So I would bet that a greater share of incidences on the higher splits are car to car contact. That would make sense in the context of the drivers being more capable of keeping their cars on the road and I think would also indicate a greater willingness to bounce off each other. And to Mr. Box's point that the racing is less respectful, well, that would certainly line up wouldn't it?

[@ryandubay4134]

I don't know if you looked at this data but faster drivers use every millimeter of the track and probably accumulate way more 1x Off Tracks than slower drivers. I'd be curious to see what the rate of 2x loss of controls, and 4x car contacts is across different splits more than anything.

[@Sophist990]

A bit late to the party but I'll mention this about the comparison between oval/Road in top splits I think would see a divergence in incidents due to the Proximity of racing to be more hazardous. The % of braking done on a road vrs oval track? Close Racing and more breaking points vrs oval close and lifting in corners would create a huge gap in stats I would think but that's just a theory.

[@anthonymanes1014]

that pass on the pink Radical was pretty sweet

[@Infigo96]

What I feel on the road side is that in the highest split with close racing comes pushing the limits. I know it may be slower to get a 1x on road america but when 4 people fight for the lead we of course want to use 100% of the good surface and if the car placement is just a tiny bit wrong then there is a 1x. I've had terrible experience when I was in lower splits but also really good experience and the same can be said in top split and it seems that overall the quality is the same according to your data. The reasons for 4x in higher and lower splits may be different but the outcome is the same

[@TacticalCardboard]

This pretends though that the lower split guys aren't trying because they are slow. In reality they are slow because they lack skill, which would make them just as likely to acquire a 1x, just from a different means. We'd also see that Spa for example would have hugely lower incident counts in the bottom split because "those drivers aren't pushing the limits". For the vast majority of drivers the "limit" is far more defined by "personal skill".

[@m4xwellmurd3r]

I raced street stocks a LOT in the higher splits and the racing was cleaner but one thing i did notice was people pushed a LOT harder so even with less incidents, there were more mistakes made by people over driving their cars cause they get over confident

[@SteveAAF]

Bottom Split Night in America: Broadcasted on Twitch every Wednesday night. It features the NiS Open Series that's hosted by bobby_labonte (Jordan Werth) and the "The Meme Stream" calling the race.

[@arrowheadall2277]

The top split guys on road get a ton of 1x off tracks because they push so hard, that may be part of it

[@TimothyChapman]

I thought that was the case. Thanks for providing actual data.

[@demonwolf863]

I think they should make it harder to move up in license class. 4 races isn't cutting it. Maybe something like 5 races to move out of rookie, 10 to move out of D, 20 out of C ect.... would force people to race cleaner as well as harder to move up

[@jamesanthony142]

I’ve been so happy getting 13th...so heartbroken coming in 2nd. Both great races

[@DriverSports]

I would suggest that in oval racing the time you spend around other cars doesn't vary as much from split to split as it does between a road top and bottom split. So what you're seeing isn't road top splits being dirtier because they don't care, it really is just spending more time in proximity to other cars.

[@TacticalCardboard]

Like I said, I don't disagree at all. Closer races will lead to more incidents naturally. That's totally fine and a statement I fully, 100% agree with. However, you still end up at the point where once you add in some "fudge factor" to sort of account for that you are still probably close enough to not matter much at all - the race you get is probably going to be similar enough to not worry about in the grand scheme of things, rather than being clearly superior by miles in one split or the other.

[@DriverSports]

@@TacticalCardboard That is true. Fitting that I've been doing the 488 Challenge at Belle Isle all week and the usual no-split races just string out, then the one surprise 3.1k SoF I stumbled in to was carnage. You're not wrong in the conclusion that people don't give a damn. It's not like there's anything to race at A class anyway. Oh hey, thanks for not showing me wrecking two poor backmarkers trying to charge back from my lap 1 spin you dodged at Mosport. And, hey, if this day night transition lures you out to do some special events I'm on a good, low key team. 3.5-5k drivers. 2nd or 3rd split. Super casual, but everyone knows what they're doing. We podiumed 3rd split GTE in last year's Daytona 24. We won the Kia class in the Nürb 24, and we were 2nd in DP, 2nd split of Petit. Tempest Motorsports. Just putting it out there. I joined these guys last year and the special events have been some of the most enjoyable sim racing in my 10 years at it.

[@n8tehgr8est]

I need a cigarette and a cold shower after all that data analysis

[@davidtovar6380]

Amazing vid! I had that misconception that the more irating, the claener the racing on the road side. But, as you have more than 50k subs, you should be able to get the protest data yourself. It won´t be as precise as if Iracing showed it but it will clarify if our presumption is true or false. Cheers!

[@vitoaugello1677]

Just started a week ago on iracing. I managed to get to c class fairly easily. I decided to try the gt3 IMSA series. Very entertaining and yes I’m in the bottom half. Fact is top half mostly pushes u off the road or crashes out right. Now I know I’m slower and I try to stay out of way but no respect to your line they punt u off the track. But as I’m spinning I do get “sorry”. Fact is when ur dealing with drivers who think they are better than everyone else. it’s open season. I got tired of that in Gt sport and I thought it would be better here. Guess not

[@ZspotMotorsport]

I tried to bug Nim in the chat of a Matt Malone stream, asked if he was going to reply to your tweets.... but I too was ignored. Cheers for the hard work!

[@TacticalCardboard]

iRacing avoids me like the plague I've found over the years, though I know staff members occasionally watch my videos. Which is a shame.

[@CMDRSweeper]

After having watched Jimmy Broadbent and the Pro drivers doing the top split... The answer is NOPE x 5000. Nothing is as dirty as that :D

[@goncalorodrigues7103]

Oh man that guy running on the apron at Daytona like a boss

[@Eric.A.Gonzalez]

I think there should be a rework for the road series if that's possible but I think from this data that the system works for ovals. And I've Personally had good and bad races in the higher and lower splits of races. I think it just comes down to whether the people who get in your race are actually good, I've seen some good rookies and I've seen some bad higher split drivers.

[@kkeith08]

I know this is an old video but remember the spa endurance racing it messed up and ppl wear just taken 1x s because there was no DQ limit

[@rjayadamson2563]

Top split road drivers normally push track limits so get a 1x for each infringement.

[@zerofox975]

I love these videos, and I don't even play iRacing. I'm scared that there's something wrong with me...

[@tuomoseppala]

Your results align with my experience and expecttions. I’ve noticed that higher splits are more prone to lap 1 mayhem. But I wouldn’t say the quality of racing is worse in tops. Not at all actually. I think that your stats don’t correlate to the quality of racing. But that’s just my experience.

[@joeybigO]

Just wanted to add that in Jimmy Broadbents video that you said, “well if your going to use the chrome horn, then you need to pass him”

[@TacticalCardboard]

You should! Otherwise you just smashed into a guy for no reason. Plus that's short track racing, where that is totally acceptable and par for the course.

[@LupusAries]

2 Weeks of research and 219 races for data sampling? Matt doing better Journalism than the "Professionals"!!!

[@mat_ot8025]

It depends of the series, time zone and sof. If it’s top split, it doesnt mean is good. The sof is the real number here, the one that really matters, due to the fact that in order to get more than 4000ir consistently YOU CANT CRASH, there is a point where if you want to get more ir you must be clean. There a few tracks that doesnt ruin your lap times if you do an off track but most if you do an off track… sooner or later someone will pass you.

[@theriddler2277]

to and watchs lando and verstappens endu race - it's the perfect eksample - the top 10 are ranked by how many incidents points they ranked up by going offtrack to gain time. max was even joking about it. lower down driver try to avoid getting point, but at the top end it's a calculation if you win by getting point you will do that.

[@TacticalCardboard]

If it were a simple as "get as many incidents as you can" then everyone would just get as many as they can. Correlation is not causation.

[@theriddler2277]

@@TacticalCardboard fair point, but getting something like 900x in one race with most coming for running wide on purpose to gain an advantage with no consequence of note is just wrong.

[@TacticalCardboard]

@@theriddler2277 Credit iRacing for improperly setting up their own race then. (and again, as I point out in the video itself a unique case like Spa isn't even in the data I go over)

[@theriddler2277]

@@TacticalCardboard still fun tho' - but incident points should really work like super license points in some way - if they stayed X time it would mean something to get demoted to a C license instead of just a few hours gaming to get back up.

[@TacticalCardboard]

@@theriddler2277 They do, something like the last 1000 corners or whatever are kept track of for your SR. The root problem is the license system is meaningless in 2019 for all but brand new players, the requirements aren't challenging and 1xs are stupid for a variety of reasons now. (NTMv7 not liking grass or gravel nearly as well, determined by the centerline was and is illogical to the driver, the track limits change from track to track, on and on and on)

[@alexanderasner1689]

I believe driver's don't care one bit and the better car control you would normally see in higher splits is neutralized by more aggressive driving. I started iracing at the beginning of this year, drove nothing like the Mazda (less than 100 races) and a couple of time trials and I am a few weeks away from my A-Class. I never drive with an attitude like "under no circumstances hit anyone". Far from it, I even have my moments of rage where I just don't care. That tells me that the bar to achieve a certain safety rating is just way, way, way too low. Every chaos master can easily make a B-rating in few weeks if he has a bit more time at hand then myself. I also think the split determination based on irating alone is a mistake. It should be a privilege to drive there and the safety rating should be taken into account as well when it comes to splits.

[@StudioDaVeed]

I just joined iRacing last Nov 2019. I am 56 years old, yes that is important. I've watched several of your videos on iRating and SR and this video here. I've been thinking about making a video about iRacing in general as it stands in 2020. Here are some fresh eyes observations in conjunction with this video and others. Many are long known issues and as a noob, maybe a fresh perspective. iRacing touts itself as the most realistic racing simulator. As one who spent over 10 years flying Microsoft's Flight Simulators for fun, let me tell you iRacing is seriously flawed. For a sim that is 10 years old to compare this game in any manner to real world racing is a complete offense to real world racing. The problem lies within the fact that people of all stripes are invited to participate. That is the root problem of ANY congregation of group(s) of people. But there are manners in which to control this to a level of societal compliance that makes it safe and enjoyable. it is here that iRacing has its greatest failure. 1) iRacing has gained popularity. I don't know the numbers, but quick research indicates the membership has doubled since the beginning. I see members that have 8-10 years and massive iRating and win stats. Makes sense, there were not the number of competitors nor the level of skill there is today. (Yes, long timers, I have a tougher row to hoe than you did! Not often THAT happens...lol.) 2) Too many children participate. How do you know a certain driver is a child? The name says it all. Kodi is NOT 56 years old; he MAY be about 18...maybe. Children include the young adult that got participation ribbons as kids. When "Caleb" screams at me for 'taking his line' as he shoves the nose of his car in between two other cars (the space of width of HALF a car)...that is a panty waste of a human being. 3) The iRating and SR are seriously flawed and (can be) outright FALSE indicators of skill or safe driving. They can be manipulated and you are given the tools and manner how to do it by the very system that is in place. I'm a A License after 2 months??? Pffft. 4) iRacing allows poor connectivity to a level that blinker cars are in every race and make it less enjoyable for all. 5) And this is the Big One: The level of fanatical cult-like following/support/defense of the flaws of iRacing from the majority of members is astounding. I have witnessed such behavior and language from only one other demographic; religion. While this has been addressed in forum and other video; one aspect I have not seen mentioned. That is the blinders on not listening attitude of "I went through it; now YOU do!." Change? For the better? Perish the thought! The condescending tone of forum participation to simple logical questions suggestions is astounding. After my FIRST such experience...my first thought was; Religion. I have seen expressed that any major adjustments or change may drive away too many and iRacing is a business after all. In fact, on forum I have seen the exact same concern expressed about the level (or lack of) hard core suspensions for repeat gross offenders. Well, if they count for a significant number of members that the loss of them is a financial concern, that pretty much confirms iRacing is a joke as a sim...it is a child's game we adults choose to play. And a sad commentary on our society also. I picked up a 50% off annual in November, so I am there for a year. I'm having fun and only time will tell if I come back. I'm treating this as a game and not a sim. Time with the Flight Simulator taught me everything on what it takes to fly a plane. I have thousands of hours of flight time and have no doubt I could take off/fly/land a general aviation Cessna. Maybe even a DC-6, one of my favorite birds. I will gain absolutely NOTHING in any manner or respect to the level of education and enjoyment from iracing as I did with the flight sims. One is a simulator. One is a game. Big difference. Don't think so? Get a copy of FSX... Then get back to me. Thanks Empty! Great videos.

[@pocok5000]

Thanks for your hard work.

[@TheD2JBug]

10:34 that car physics on impact

[@kokoaliburudenda7107]

Man some of the wrecks are funny as hell.

[@JohnCenaDuPont]

Empty "Martin Truex Jr" Box.

[@paulboehm404]

Thank you, been wondering about this.

[@binlagin]

I've got a tool that downloads the CSV and pumps them into an SQL database all automagically. I just need another simple layer to download them all.. lemme know if your curious

[@cmskinner3682]

As a top split driver for the most part. The top split is WAY WAY more aggressive than bottom. Just my .02$

[@zedeeyen30]

Haha, that clip at 2mins with the clusterfudge GT3 crash at Watkins was totally my fault. I was the pink Z4 :)

[@crexLive]

great video, but I feel like you missed one important thing. you looked a bit too one-sided on the road series incs, and without further analysis of the incident sources (x1 or x4) it's really hard to jump on conclusions. Your view is one-sided because you assume that top split drivers are faster, and always try to drive faster to gain time, hence they would tank incidents to gain time, like we saw it at the 24h of spa. However, you miss the idea that top split drivers tank incidents to not lose any time and totally ignore that all drivers are only humans after all. road racing is way deeper than ovals, and not as straight forward when we talk about incidents. you can't scratch the wall in ovals if you mess up the turn, that's never an option. and you have only a limited set of turns anyways which you drive through, which means that you're 200% used to driving car by car on any part of the track. That's not the case in a road series. It is an option to leave the track if you make a mistake. a lot of the times, if you make a mistake or are forced into one, it's well worth it to tank an incident point instead of slowing down, screwing your track position, and losing a second or two. clipping the grass causes less harm than any other option. furthermore, lapping other cars is significantly easier in ovals. it's a fixed process which is easy to practice, and 99% of the drivers know what they are doing. you can easily plan it, because the track is always the same. it's super easy to get used to it. this does not apply for any road series. each tracks has certain unique features, which you only face when you drive this track, the most known are for example eau rouge in spa, or the S'es in CoTA. And even though you cut multi-class races out of the data because of the high iR differences between different classes, the exact same issues are also present within the top splits of road races. it's the same class, but the iR differences are equally huge. If we assume that what you say about multi-class races is correct, the last paragraph would mean that your results are screwed to a certain degree.

[@crexLive]

the video just popped out again and I got another idea for a thesis. I can't prove it cause I don't have any data, but it should be quite easy to find out when you crawled the splits. the idea I got is: in lower splits it's more likely that a driver DNF's with his first x4 contact in contrary to a top split driver. because low split contacts happen with more force. and if a driver DNF's with x4, he will not be able to keep going and get a few off tracks over the course of the race which can always happen in road racing.

[@One_Guy]

the Protest system is a farce, i had someone run me off the track and filed a protest against me. I contested it and provided data showing the other driver drove me off the road.. needless to say they kicked both of us off for a few days and that's when i left iracing... screw em.

[@brentparker3591]

Not buying it. You didn't get kicked for an incident. You either swore the other driver, harassed him, or intentionally retaliated on track. Or you already had a bunch of warnings (protests) against you.

[@yannikbaltes3552]

@@brentparker3591 100% with you on that one. There are a lot of people on reddit and everywhere else who claim they got instabanned for a few days just for 1 incident and thats just not true. I think you can actually intentional rek someone and get away with a warning first, if you did nothing else before.

[@paulbatey3066]

I think another problem comes from iRating being overall, instead of having a car specific component. I'm not too shabby at Skip Barber, mediocre at GTE, so my iRating bounces around. I can beat a 3k Skippy "rookie", but get thrashed by a 1k GTE driver. I'm guessing this doesn't happen as much in oval as the skills are more transferable between tracks and cars.

[@TacticalCardboard]

At the end of the day, keeping a car on track and not smashing into anything is a darn near universal skill. Just because you aren't experienced with a car that doesn't mean you suddenly have to smash into other cars. You'll be slower, but you shouldn't be that more dangerous.

[@paulbatey3066]

@@TacticalCardboard Yeah I get that. I think I'm just more inclined to think that accidents are more incompetence than not caring. But I might be wrong.

[@IthacaDon]

The challenge with having a higher iR in a competitive series and being too slow is getting hit from behind because the other guys don't expect you to be so slow. I start in the back but try to make sure I am faster than the slower classes before I drive.

[@TacticalCardboard]

@@paulbatey3066 IDK. I kind of agree that it's incompetence causing wrecks, but not smashing into other cars on a regular basis is so incredibly easy I feel like one has to not care to routinely run into that issue.

[@paulbatey3066]

@@TacticalCardboard True, either way it's annoying that about 50% of my skippy races are ended by divebombs and rear ends. What's the answer? Maybe at least mandatory watching of the driving videos? Have a separate safety rating for time trials? A cool down period of non racing if you write a car off? What's your take?

[@AMPY_Motorsports]

so after crunching the numbers, at what irating and series are drivers the 'safest'? thanks for the video!

[@brandonryan9582]

simple. get faster. get pole positions. i stopped racing on certain tracks until i could put in a top 5 lap time. you cant be stuck behind 20 people taking it slow for 10 minutes. just forget about it go practice until youre faster and cleaner. after i started doing that my SR went up to 4.99 and it never really drops below 4.0

[@SprawlRacer]

1x’s should be removed, if you cut for an advantage you get a penalty via having to slow down. Going off track isn’t a safety issue. Sometimes it’s safer to go in the grass then it is to plow through a wreck on track. I wish they’d spit races via safety rating.

[@rickervine]

SR rating should be weighted heavier in upper splits to cost you your license when you are unsafe.

[@amxprgmr]

Love all your videos. I have to say you might have saved some time by just watching an F1 race. Any one of those races proves that the top tier isn't cleaner.

[@rickervine]

You can't have fun when constantly being punted off the track.

[@mobilechicane1703]

Good work Mr. Box! My road irating usually puts me in the top splits and it seems to me that driving standards are getting worse. If it's true that people don't care about irating, then what is the solution? Harsher penalties? JB

[@vincentpienaar9740]

Great job, Matt.

[@rickervine]

Top split speeds are much higher making avoidance driving much harder.

[@simcaesar5617]

So.... no?

[@Brophdog88]

RIP me at 5:40 (inside, 2nd in line)

[@rjayadamson2563]

Theres also a lot of places on road America a 1x is an advantage.

[@SidVish]

Great stuff.

[@JohnTheodore]

Good video, man! Nice work

[@sameermohideen4913]

They should have destruction derby series season long. Get all the punting out of your systems before the race

[@sideslick1024]

6:20 Ayy, I'm the green and black car! ...wait, I'm the green and black car... (Still salty with that pink car)

[@SirHecK]

Yea I would to if I was in that race *pats on back*

[@japotak99]

That wreck at 2:34 😳

[@TacticalCardboard]

The astute F1 viewer should be able to recognize that helmet. Even F1 race winners screw the pooch from time to time!

[@fernandomattos]

I was the yellow and black Radical in that lol

[@fernandomattos]

Empty Box The White car drifts into me, but like you say, maybe I shouldn’t pass there

[@zachpeterson4519]

I've been in top and bottom splits and over the past couple years the amount of incompetence I see increases steadily. As someone who races in real life, I seek as close to that as I can get. Physics wise, yes I would say it's there. The racing though, eh. People do things that are really disappointing and you wouldn't see on a real track A LOT here. Although I have made friends on iracing and ran some really awesome races with people that know what's going on, more often than not I find people that ruin the fun.

[@zachsieber3500]

Zach Peterson I’m with you on this granted iracing doesn’t have what I race in real like Dirt modifieds is the closest I have to North East sportsman. But quality definitely has gone down. I was in a top split past 3 races and have seen more wrecks than the 4 cylinders I watch at my track which is almost a shit show most the time.

[@zachpeterson4519]

@@zachsieber3500 dirt street stocks here IRL. I agree with you, it really is sometimes worse than the compact classes at local tracks.

[@thxman1968]

How can it "be there"? Do you race in VR? There is no "visual" feel imo, no matter what the FOV is. I've raced a bit myself and in that instance, it's not close at all.

[@zachsieber3500]

Zach Peterson for example we had a race for sportsman that is topless weekend which takes the roofs off the car so it takes away a lot of downforce. The track is named Genessee speedway which is as bullring as you can get which has an average of 25-28 cars a night alone for sportsman, but we had one caution the entire night and it ended up screwing my race up because I slammed the wall coming out of 4 because I couldn’t see from the dust which broke something severe and finished 10th. It was much better than any dirt race on iracing I’ve been in so far

[@zachpeterson4519]

@@thxman1968 John, I said physics. Not Immersion.

[@ryanborris6077]

Have you made it to the Knoxville national yet????

[@jeffcole75]

Faster drivers feel more entitled to that piece of road so they are far more likely to crash with each other

[@KumaKaori]

13:13 empty cameo :D!. ... Doh, guy behind you was too focused on the Audi's instead of your braking :

[@rickervine]

Why isn't there driving educate training in any sim?

[@Tombstone2211]

Quality content as usual *thumbs up*

[@captainunderpants200]

In a nutshell, and this applies to the real world, the average driver thinks that they're better than the average driver. This is logically impossible, and why the 'average driver' thinks everyone else is an idiot when in fact it is them that is the idiot. The higher the 'irating', the greater the arrogance and self-delusion.

[@TheBazzterd]

Nothing wrong with average :)