Is The War Within Too Hard?

[@REDLINE4WD.]

Normal: Button mash Heroic: Button mash Mythic: A little less button mashing. Mythic+: You better learn every mechanic you never learned or your gonna wipe the group.

[@deenman23]

the stark difference is insane,in normal nothing matters,in hc (early on),you can basicaly ignore anything and the healer will easily cover the dmg,and then in m+....you just die if you make any mistake or if the healers isnt ready at all times to pick up the entire group instantly including the tank....also healthpools in tww are HUGE,but the dmg you take is even greater than before....design team are hacks

[@vashe9]

​ @deenman23 it has always been the case, nothing new here. In (old) 16+ keys if you don't apply mechanics you die

[@Eekbarbaderkle]

The higher the difficulty the more punishing the concenques for failure. Clutch the pearls and gasp! Who would have thought that's how it would work. Two options here, push yourself to get better so failures happen less often, and they still will happen cause thigs do wrong. Or don't and complain about how hard the stuff that's supposed the be hard to do is.

[@brandonyoung4910]

You’re*

[@86Corvus]

Doing dungeon bosses by knowing mechanics?! What is this?! gameplay or something?!

[@shadowrider7072]

I'm so old, that back when I was "really into" dungeons and raiding, every pull had multiple raid icons put in place so we knew target priority and who CC'd what or it was an instant wipe. If there was voicechat, it was on Teamspeak or Ventrillo since Discord didn't exist. I've always prefered methodical tactics and execution gameplay over "RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH RUSH" but that's probably a generational thing since I'm an old fart and have played on and off since Vanilla, including being a raid leader for Vanilla, TBC, Wrath, Cata, and Legion. (Skipped panda-land, and left BFA and DF partway through due to lack of interest, tone, and plot)

[@hobosnake1]

We have the same taste in xpacs. DF seemed like great gameplay and it respected your time, but the involved characters and zones were not cool enough to keep my attention.

[@VDHmain]

That was only a thing if your group sucked though, there was never a need for this back then.

[@seabassrun]

Mythic keys are timed now so methodical approach is not possible

[@chrisp2588]

Same. The effect mythic has had is to make it so even on a regular dungeon there is always at least 1 'I'm the main character/pro-gamer' in each group. I used to love healing and found the rest of the classes quite boring, but I just absolutely hate healing now so I rarely play an expansion for much longer than a month, if at all. It sucks.

[@Jezato]

Haha I remember doing that in dungeons in vanilla and TBC, Tank was undergeared? no problem mage sheep, hunter ice trap, hunter MD to tank pet. Every pack of mobs could be disected by a team with good use of CC and each classes utility. Those were the golden days to me.

[@fredrikedvardsson9246]

Impossible to balance. If they die, it's too hard. If they beat it, it's too easy. Whiners always whine.

[@gscgold]

Accurate

[@Raven5321]

Wish these guys would just quit instead of crying so hard.

[@johnlines9864]

To be fair, I have been tanking since wotlk and I can not remember a time that I felt this squishy. I can't yet tell if it's tuning or the tank nerfs, but it feels awful right now to be a tank. It used to be that tanking was about using CDs at the right time. Right now, it feels like you have to use them every time they are up and just hope you have the dps to kill stuff before you run out.

[@Starkimonde]

​@@johnlines9864 standing your ground and face tanking isn't always the solution. Times you need to kite. Your party can help in this endeavor too.

[@julio4494]

Agreed, everyone wants to be high io, but never with everyone else

[@bobbythefish4836]

In my experience, WoW's difficulty comes from it's lack of ability to teach you how it actually works. There seems to be a dichotomy in its design where it is either mindlessly simple or incomprehensibly complex. Players can't learn about the game very well by playing it and that feels really bad. I haven't played any other game that makes me feel like I have to take lessons or integrate modifications from a third party in order to reach an acceptable performance level.

[@ko7577]

It didn't used to be that way. While it took some fine-tuning and research, it didn't feel like a 12-month college course just to master a few mythic+ dungeons. Now? I'm not even bothering this round. I don't have the time for it, and I doubt anyone but a full-time Twitch streamers and some diehards do. I'm sure the bots are hitting it for all it's worth right now, though.

[@shawntraub7249]

It feels like a problem when every single boss in a raid requires you to watch a 10+ minute video going over its abilities, and the tactics on how to defeat it.

[@MrAlefloo]

What are you guys talking about? Just go in there with a premade group and learn as you go.

[@anon1530]

​@@MrAlefloototally agree, im an "old fart" from the ancient vanilla times who came back in SL s3. The game isnt overly complicated, and all mmos require some guides and videos because of how big they are. But learning Bosses and dungeons dont need that, you can actually learn it by yourself. I havent watched a single m+ guide since i started because trial by error is the only way to really learn.

[@lukeluckynblue1873]

@@shawntraub7249 And yet most bosses required you to pull and feel it :D cause i never met anyone in my 20 years that could watch a video and play the boss properly The best way is always the Pull and wipe

[@roy9294]

It's going to be a miserable experience for PUG healers, as you can guarantee most of the DPS won't interrupt or move out of bad stuff, then yell at the healer when they die. Next thing you know, all the healers stop doing PUGs.

[@hypercynic]

It's already bad enough in just normal dungeon queuing too.

[@antons7210]

Literally happened in a normal dungeon just days ago. The tank pulled the whole room + the boss and a dps quickly died for standing in shit. What do they say? "Healer, you can't heal for shirt". A lot of dps have this mindset that the healer is there to heal through their mistakes. And some don't even understand why they're dying

[@indeliblemakes5359]

guess we gotta party up

[@vashe9]

@@antons7210 you can litterally one pull until boss (boss included) even in heroics in 560 ilvl gear mate...

[@antons7210]

@@vashe9 Did I say that you couldn’t? Reading comprehension is hard, eh

[@travisjones4689]

Feel like people have been saying for years that M+ could just be harder, but without time limits, and it would instantly make the experience better for everyone. You could actually take the time to learn and master every pull, and everyone would get better... and it would help to reduce a bit of that some of the toxic "GOTTA GO FAST, GET OUT IF YOU'RE NOT PERFECT" mindset M+ helped foster

[@Draghful]

It wouldn't though. It would make the game better for the average casual player who stops doing keys after they've reached the max. gear level a dungeon can provide. For people pushing beyond that (so for RIO/ladder grinders) it would make the game horrible. And I literally mean horrible because, without a timer, they'd reach a key level where they'd just have to wait for all CDs and BL/Hero for every single pull. A single dungeon would take hours to complete. That's not fun at all. I agree that it would probably decrease toxicity AND make M+ more fun for the casual audience but the "everyone" in your statement is just not correct.

[@prototype0277]

Mythic+ is the primary reason I quit wow. No one wants to take the time to learn pulling over the zerg fest that it is now, and adding the penalty of time makes it completely unenjoyable

[@Draghful]

​@@prototype0277 Interesting point of view. Things go both ways though. For a lot of players M+ is the primary reason they still play WoW because they can't be bothered to schedule their life around a calendar in a game and commit to 3-4 hour gaming sessions 2-4 days a week just to raid. So the flexibility of M+ is a saving grace.

[@hypercynic]

@@Draghful Outside of mythic raiding guilds... what fucking guild raids more than 2 days a week? I don't think I've ever been in one since Wrath. How would you even have enough content for more than two days of raiding? Hell, the last guild I was in raided one day a week for 3 hours and we would easily clear all heroic and then a few bosses on mythic each week. If you join a guild that raids more than 2 days a week and you want to complain about too much raiding being a requirement, then it's kinda YOUR fault for joining said guild at that point. If more than 2 days includes alt runs, those don't really count considering they aren't mandatory raids, unless again you're in a mythic raid guild and you need to have your 2 or 3 main alts also highly geared and ready in case you need to swap.

[@deenman23]

is that way classic is even more GOGOGOGO?

[@Eckythump]

I've said this before. When people say they want harder dungeons, it's just not true for the majority. I applaud Blizzard for making dungeons challenging. I really liked Cataclysm dungeons. BUT, experience has shown that people will check out. People are way to comfortable with the 'Gotta go fast' mind virus now.

[@SoundlessFantasy]

They created that virus with the m+ timer being so brutal

[@stuff4812]

fact is the majority of wow players since the beginning prefer the easier side in difficulty. if you went and made heroic mode actually difficult to beat, heroic raid guild would fall apart like they have in the past, and the game loses players fast. some idea with mythic plus. the easier it is push keys, the more people will play them. they infinitely scale so the people that actually want a challenge can push for a challenge anyways,but the ones that dont, which are the majority of wow players in history, would still be able to participate and interact with the system of getting better keys and achieving the rewards in place for it. basically the game is more fun for most people when the devs dont try to design the encounters to hard. medium-easy is the better option if you want people to keep participating

[@hobosnake1]

@@stuff4812 nah. I don't think the game should be braindead. I'm sorry, but having it be TBC or Wrath difficulty would also kill the game. The die hards who get their friends in and love the game will vanish. Edit: worded that poorly. I mean the die hards are the ones who love the game and sink many hours into it and have the desire to get their friends on.

[@goyut1]

I find funny now wow is getting the same treatment as final fantasy 14

[@Drasnier]

You guys don't PLAY the dungeons anyway, no matter how easy it gets so WHO CARES?! You want it braindead so even you can beat it? Alright. They'll make it easier so you'll get to do it... alone lul. Did you know there are not only several different difficulties for WoW dungeons, but now you can ALSO play it solo with NPC's? Finally YOU TOO can enjoy the glory of winning... *whine* the most difficult part of the game is TOO HARD for me because I'm bad and I can't learn anything and nobody wants to play with me on the baby difficulty Blizzard change it for everyone so I too can say I beat Mythic difficulty *whine* Edit: Maybe I was a bit pissed off while I wrote this first, but yeah. We have follower dungeons, normal, heroic, m0 soon, and then m+ for the sweaty nerds like me. It's more options for difficulty than pretty much any other game and genre in history. There is very little to complain about here. If you want a more "normal speed" run of the dungeons, simply make a custom group (which you have to do for m+ regardless) and make the title "Chill run" and 99% of people signing up for it will be likeminded and patient as saints. :)

[@Silv3rDragon]

Delves are solo. I like delves.

[@danieltilson4053]

Delves and follower dungeons are the ultimate form of WoW self care.

[@enthomorf]

Maybe Blizzard had created Devs, already predicting players having troubles and uncofortable trying to do M+. hahahahaaa

[@yowaikemen]

Agreed. ESO did that really well. You could go into these public dungeons solo and form groups inside if people were really struggling. I liked delves, and I had wished WoW followed with something similar for YEARS.

[@normannseils3936]

@@Silv3rDragon delves are 100 times easier and faster if you have more people. The more the better. The scaling increase with more players is a joke and you get all the objectives done much more efficiently (you are always in combat with a random shitter mob that prevents you from interacting with objectives). Sure take your time with delves, that’s why you can solo, but it feels miserable compared to 2 or 3 players with a tank ideally.

[@neartzim4240]

i like delves but i dislike brann taking aggro on half the mobs i dodged

[@CoffeeTheFreshmaker]

Problem is that they've turned up how much dangerous stuff is happening all the time, but haven't gotten better at showing said dangerous stuff. Cleaving mobs still don't have a cone for indication, even if they're gnomes surrounded by taurens or something. Same thing for ranged power attacks that pierce in a direction. Visual clutter in an all time high and most mobs have so many different casts that figuring out the right one is a matter of using 3rd party tools to dissect what they do and what to deal with. Not to mention, seems less enemy casts have cooldowns. So even stops or stuns doesn't really stop a spell, just delays it. They need to really work on all conal and area spells enemies do, having clear visual indicators and might want an option for which visual effects from other players you wanna see. Like "only show helpful" or "only show helpful and ground area duration effects". I dunno, just getting tired of not being able to tell what's going on at all without addon help. I do have a few personal problems making visual clutter especially bad for me, but I don't have this problem in most other games. Not to mention removing extra melee range while at the same time making melee more frustrating cause of above. Like even in a normal pull with just one pack, the traps or consecrates in the priory dungeon are not only hard to see, but consecrate does damage on you before you can even get out of it and the traps are kinda see through till they arm, so can spawn under you... or you could play ranged.

[@BIGSWOLEXL]

Tldr just play ranged

[@nickandreyev766]

They changed it in tww pre patch, some of trash mobs abilities (they say they are tuning it manually) will now only go on CD once the mobs finish the casts or are interrupted. It was especially noticeable in uldaman where the crocodile mobs do the spiked carapace cast, which you used to be able to cc, now they will recast it as soon as cc ends and will do so until you use kick. However the troggs in the same pack that do chain lightning will not recast it if you cc them. Melee range talents increase should have stayed for healer specs like paladin monk or druid tho, it's just fucking abysmal to have to sit on the mobs face to be able to heal ppl.

[@johnathanbowers5433]

@@nickandreyev766you’re missing the big picture. You’re justifying bad game design that only got a band-aid once players complained. The devs do not make a *fun* experience. If I’m being generous I guess I could say they’re too incompetent to understand how to balance experiential fun with rewarding challenges.

[@nickandreyev766]

@@johnathanbowers5433 I was just replying to the guy who said "less mobs have cooldowns" so that he knows how it works in case he does not know already. Imo it was fine before, when coordinating your ccs resulted in being able to stop almost everything instead of only utilising kicks. But yeah, I totally agree they have their own vision in which high keys are some kind of torture where you can't cc trash casts, of which there are 15 in a 5 mob pull, having to whack a mole heal everyone while having no melee range as a healer, and that vision has nothing to do with fun. Feels like they took Ruby life pools as a standard and now develop new dungeons to be the same dick clencher. At least we got rid of sanguine, so baby steps I guess

[@Drasnier]

I disagree, I think almost everything is fairly easy to see visually so far, at least after the third time I saw it. I *am* a veteran though, *but* also a healer (meaning I have to know *everything* that goes on unlike the DPS who only need to know the most important abilities to interrupt in 2-3 pulls each dungeon). Cleaving mobs most of the time have a cast bar for the cleave abilities (some like the paladin mobs in the Priory of Flame cast the hard-hitting Consecrate which is an AOE ground effect and does NOT have cast time, in higher difficulties they will most likely require some hard CC like hexes...I hope, I like hexing stuff...), and the tank should always be facing mobs away from the group just as a baseline. Part of the game is learning what mobs do what, and when. And you're gonna die while learning, that's pretty much the most fun part IMO! So good luck out there, and have fun! (btw for the traps I'm pretty sure you can actually *hear* where most of them get placed in relation to your character if you're wearing headphones, it's a fun skill to learn.) ^^

[@xMissMaveNx]

Challenging Dungeons isn't the problem. The problem is zoomer tanks that want to pull 17 packs of mobs at a time. Having a slower methodical pace where marks and CC are required is what made WoW great back in the day, imo.

[@Joe-ti7qd]

OMG THIS.

[@gampie13]

That's just mearly a symptom of the game training the players with timed content, and harsh double punishment. Rather than the punishment being just failing

[@gunmanzz]

And if they don't pull then someone complains they are going to slow.

[@stewie4467]

large disagree, pulling big packs and doing insane damage is way more fun than taking 40 minutes to do a dungeon because your tank doesn't know how to play his class

[@Tyrownious]

@@stewie4467way more fun for who… cause the other players clearly aren’t having a good time. None of the tanks are hard to play. Pulling a bunch doesn’t mean knowing how to play your class, everything heals you and the self sustain is at insane levels right now. There’s more to the game than watching damage meters uploading parses while you get the lotion out to stroke to the big numbers where you completely ignored mechanics and just brain dead pulled the dungeon like you’re playing Diablo just so you can hurry up and stop playing the game faster and then complain there’s no new content you can zug zug face on keyboard pull

[@avekrso285]

The only reason I don't do m+ is because people are so fixated on pulling the entire instance and going as fast as possible. That isn't fun and it's not how dungeons should work

[@nikovz4719]

Welll…. Kinda does with m+ bc you need to go fast to get a higher key 😅😅😅

[@avekrso285]

@@nikovz4719 yeah that is stupid imo

[@brunohommerding3416]

@@nikovz4719 the fast fast fast mentality makes shit stressful, not fun when you dont even see whats happening beyond floating numbers

[@nikovz4719]

@@brunohommerding3416 keep steering away from m+ Hope the expansion is a blast for you :)

[@Dynekun252]

@@nikovz4719yea, but some people go crazy with it. We can do 2 or 3 packs at a time and make time. No need to pull everything up to each boss outside of MDI events.

[@Hauke-ph5ui]

There is no issue with the game. However: People assuming that they can just jump in, pull entire dungeons on M+10 and survive steamrolling everything - that attitude IS a problem and has been for way too long.

[@moppa90]

when you need add-ons and youtube guides, the game has a massive issue. people don't want to jump in m+10 and steamrolle. the majority of people just are casual gamers and they don't want to put in the time to get good because they just don't have that time. wow made the mistake to heavily try to attract casual gamers, who are the majority now, so they have to balance the game around them or they just lose money. if they kept game how it was, a game for hardcores with a ton of time, they would have to balance the game around them.

[@scottfree6479]

The game is more fun when you pull 20 mobs and have uncapped AOE than when you pull 3-4 mobs and slowly grind through the dungeon. Bad players prefer a slower game. Good players want to have fun and slam. Cry about it if you want, but I’m right and you know it.

[@Dynekun252]

@@scottfree6479no, you’re trolling and we all know it. Neither strat you mentioned defines a good or bad player. Knowing when to use either is what makes the difference.

[@VDHmain]

@@scottfree6479 Facts. M+ is a speedrunning game mode and we all wished the noobs understood.

[@lethalbaconbacon2079]

Legion/bfa was the best for me. Or well I enjoyed it the most

[@whambalamb]

As a caster I was struggling to sit still to cast anything

[@wackywarrior001]

don't worry there will be a mod to cover your screen with charts, graphs and arrows to tell you where to go while sound cues yell at you to move now and where to go,

[@benjamingrant6203]

(In a condescending voice) EXCUSE ME SIR, These spreadsheets we play off of are called addons.😂

[@anonamarth4291]

Thank you for using the correct cue in this context.

[@Malfyman]

​@@anonamarth4291 Do people often use queue in lieu of cue?

[@daniellacomb917]

Yeah screw that if you need a mod to play the game then your game sucks

[@wackywarrior001]

@@daniellacomb917 I think with wow it’s more like if the game needs you to have a mod to play the game sucks . Wow needs an overhaul to bring into the current day , though at this point it won’t be blizz, glad anyone still left who enjoys playing .

[@siliarba]

For me, M+ simply isn't enjoyable, and that's fine, plenty of people do seem to enjoy it so let them at it. The thing that upsets me about M+ to the point they are one of my main reasons for quitting the game, is that they feel mandatory. You want the highest gear possible, well you need to do M+ at a certain level to get the highest vault stuff. I love raiding, one of the most fun things for me, but to properly raid I felt like I was forced doing M+ more often than actually raiding, meaning that to do the thing I love, I'm forced to spend more time doing the thing I hate. If they separated M+ from other content just like they did for PvP, have the gear from M+ drop in item level when you use it in PvP and raids and remain the same everywhere else, then this would completely fall away for me.

[@Draghful]

Funny, it's the other way around for me. I used to enjoy raiding but nowadays I really can't be asked to raid anymore. Simply because of having to schedule my life around an ingame calendar and being required to play 3-4 hours straight for 3 days per week. I was really happy when they introduced M+ as an alternative to raiding because M+ is way more flexible than mythic raiding. No calendar, no schedule, no mandatory 3-4 hours sessions. Just log on whenever you feel like it, play how long you want to play and log off again. As someone who does decently high keys (+24 to +26 in DF S3) though, I always feel like I'd also have to raid mythic due to incredibly potent trinkets and weapons you just can't get from M+. In that sense, I fully support your desire to have M+ gear separated like PvP gear is. I'd love to NOT have to raid and still have the best possible gear for M+. I don't mind if my M+ gear is 20ilvls worse in raids. I really don't. I just want to enjoy my keys without feeling like crippling myself because I didn't get the BiS weapon/trinket from the mythic raid endboss.

[@Grandy_UiD]

I had the exact same thougt just a few days ago. Make M+ loot only have it's high ilvl while in M+ so as a mythic raider I don't feel forced to run M+. Same for raid gear for the M+ crowd that doesn't want to run raids.

[@antons7210]

@@Draghful Well, they can solve it pretty easily by having M+ specific gear. So M+ becomes its separate mode like PVP. Everyone's happy.

[@paulosouza449]

​@@antons7210No one is happy, that is the stupidest idea ever

[@antons7210]

@@paulosouza449 That M+ becomes optional? Please elaborate why that is so stupid? The only loser in this scenario is Blizzard. Because people will naturally spend less time in the game, only doing the content they actually enjoy doing.

[@Experiment.626]

These heroics are still way easier than cata heroics were by miles

[@forsakenheartz55]

Lol cata made me quit being a healer 😂😂

[@D1str1ct]

I moved from normal into hc, i ran normals solo to get to know the meachanics so i wouldnt be usless in hc. So.............i didnt need to do that. They burn down so fast and the mobs die that quick that i feel like im still in normals.

[@darkduprey4079]

Its M+ on the beta that they are compairing to Cata heroics, not the current heroics lol

[@commracA]

Wow leveling: brainrot easy Wow m+/raid: hard U know what, WoW... there should be some ballance/consistency. There should be open world challenging stuff too, it's WORLD of warcraft, not INSTANCE of warcraft ahahshshshshsh

[@XFoX90]

Instanced World of Warcraft: it has been like this since WotLK.

[@CatDad09]

I quit playing my Unholy DK because there are just way too many buttons to press even after they cut down some of the bloat. I honestly miss the way Legion classes played where most of your class was on one bar with a ton of passive procs.

[@Onlytheclouds]

I switched to frost lol

[@slagwerk111]

Frost poo too bland gemeplay

[@cripplingcaffeineaddiction3847]

I agree. Even hunter in PvP has way too many buttons nowadays. I don't want to be required to have a 10 button gaming mouse to properly play the game it is kind of absurd.

[@18ccase]

I wish I had buttons to press. I'm playing feral and I have 2-4 second every 30 seconds I can't press buttons because I don't have energy. Stacking haste is such a DPS loss that it's not worth it to have energy to actually hit my buttons

[@CatDad09]

@@18ccase It’ll all come together, it’s the beginning of the expansion and our gear just sucks lol

[@senshy290]

why is no one ever complaining about the fact that m+ is RNG loot without a pity system? you could do 6 dungeons which would take you hours and gain NO LOOT because you weren't lucky

[@DJZaxxOfficial]

the weekly vault is your pity system

[@18ccase]

My specialty is stealing one of the two drops at the end of the dungeon for the ONE SINGLE GEAR SLOT I ALREADY HAVE. Just ran 4 heroics and got 3 shoulders

[@ParrishT3]

@@18ccase Legion and BFA had me that way... Get the same titanforged ring three times meanwhile I haven't gotten a single good thing in any other slot.

[@mothman84]

Putting your cart ahead of your horses there, chief: loot comes after you defeat the last boss, and that, you'll see, will be a statistically rare event. No point bothering with loot, there won't be much of it for a while.

[@Slvrbuu]

Healing in WoW hasn't been fun in ages. It's why I quit. Especially when you go from that to healing in something like FF14. That being said, Wall-to-Wall pulling is definitely a thing in FF14 too.

[@lunaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa]

>FF14 healing >"fun" kek

[@jplayer073]

FF14 healing is awful. Even compared to games like ESO or SWTOR.

[@Tyrownious]

I think tanking is in a bad spot and is mostly responsible for the whole bad experience with group content. They don’t need to be healed unless the pull the ENTIRE dungeon and they do it every time. If you need to stand still for something well good luck, they’re not stopping and most the time not even tagging any of the ads if they can solo the dungeon it’s a problem. The self healing is too much, I have a guardian Druid and a blood DK and I don’t die unless I’m being super reckless. Tanking should be about holding threat and mitigation not unchecked AoE and self sustain. As for a mythic plus solution to giving some challenge for things that need to be CC’d… just remove the timer. If you need to press players for time add the old enrage timers to specifically the boss fights or mobs that aren’t cc’d but not killed fast enough and as for waiting around on cool downs. If you don’t actively pull or maintain combat for a certain amount of time it marks for afk and ends the key. Having some classes with CC and needing cc mechanics not only changes the bad pace problem that’s going on but it also opens up the really stupid meta thing going on of only taking the 3 biggest blasting classes listed in Icy veins and opens up a need to bring someone that offers some utility and not just pew pew look at numbers.

[@LogicalMayhem00]

Remember when cataclysm came out and you had to raid mark and CC for every pack in dungeons and no one could handle it because of how easy the previous expansion was. Gamers don't know what they want. In reality gamers want to feel like they're good at games without actually being good at them.

[@Nyierm]

I loved it. The heroic dungeons, specially the Troll ones were one of the best things in Cata for me.

[@rtchhangte5045]

Such a good comment amongst a sea of unuseful comments

[@NerdishGeekish]

Here's an idea: whenever a player successfully interrupts a cast, they get a short 10 second buff to their main stat, or to their stamina/armor for tanks. You'll get the meter chasers to fight over interrupting mobs, compared to now where some of them don't even have interrupt on their action bars.

[@ronniel904]

That's player problem not a game problem if people are to stupid to kick that's on them not the game

[@Drasnier]

The benefit of interrupting a cast is them NOT DYING. If they can't grasp that concept then no amount of buffs will help, because they're not someone that understands that buffs are things that are beneficial in the first place. People who can't interrupt aren't meter chasers. They don't even know what a dps meter IS. But they'll complain about it until the ends of the earth... :D

[@Drakkarok]

That's a very bad ideea because they will keep the kick for burst window and kick whatever shit goes on right there for the dps increase. You will get even fewer valuable kicks in a dungeon

[@rtchhangte5045]

This has already been implemented as a seasonal affix during shadowlands, it didn’t change anything. Those who want to play good interrupt regardless and those who ignore still ignore it.

[@p4ttl344]

everyone blowing their interrupts on the same 1 cast lol

[@michaellovatt3944]

“The game doesn’t support that”! How is it he has the confidence to come on this show with the dumbest possible takes, but can’t find it within himself to get a group together after a few pug runs? God damn.

[@Lotheren]

I want to use my warband for mythics/dungeons, If I want to invite a friend/guildie then they can take a spot. It will allow me to build my alts up, build my main char, not deal with toxic people and make me the only point of failure for a bad run. Plus I dont have all the time in the world so it also gets the benefit of being all on my own time.

[@unholyhate380]

This needs to be higher up! They have the technology with the follower dungeons, why not roll it out with our warbands?

[@rockmcdwayne1710]

Remember the old days of TBC where you would pull a pack of 4 mobs, cc 3 of them and start killing them one at the time? It was often the case that, if 1 or more of the cc targets got loose, everyone paniced and people got killed. Given the fact how crit immunity was a big thing and pretty much any elite mob could 1 shot a healer if they got loose! These days you have a tank that goes and pulls half a dungeon without needing any support in the form of healing or damage and people have gotten used to this. I personally find it extremely boring way to play the game. Everything needs to be 100% efficient and as fast as possible. Bringing timers in the mix was a mistake from the get-go! The moment blizzard decided that tanks and healers need to also contribute as dps was the time everything started moving down hill and at the end of the expansion you get boss level tanks that can do everything on their own! Complete death of class/spec fantasy! Because of years of this pampering, if tank cant pull half the dungeon at the time, everyone is going to throw a giant tamper tantrum resulting in blizzard ''fixing'' it and what we get at the end is all the same shit again!

[@donna589]

exactly!

[@subcitizen2012]

This is also a dynamic coming fresh into a new expac. You go from top dogs haven't upgraded gear in 6 months, steamrolling everything, to tasting some humility again. Amazing. Needs to happen more. I want everyone crying. Creates engagement.

[@DrPluton]

I mostly avoid Mythic+ because of the timer. I've hated time limits in video games since Super Mario Bros for NES. It makes me feel pressured, and stress is the opposite of fun.

[@XFoX90]

As long as Ion is lead game designer, the game will always be like this. THATS WHAT HE LIKES AS A PLAYER, so that's what he puts in the game. This type feedback has been disregarded since M+ came out in Legion. It's not going to change sadly...

[@petervillent5573]

As long as there's no zoom zoom pull whole dungeon and aoe meta, I am fine with challenging dungeons.

[@d4mephisto]

Tell us you're a bad player with bad gear who doesn't know how to move through a dungeon quickly without telling us. Sounds like a personal problem on your end. As a tank player, I love to pull the entire dungeon and see myself at the top of the damage meter and healing meter. That's what makes this game fun. I'm the most valuable player, and no one matters except me, and I'm the best by every metric.

[@Domebuddy]

@@d4mephisto you had me in the first half.

[@LV426Survivor]

@@d4mephisto Why is the game, with the state that you say is the best, having less and less people playing it? Clearly your subjective opinion is wrong. L take. Cope and seethe. GG no re

[@gingfree3383]

​@d4mephisto are you doing a bit or are you actually this insufferable?

[@d4mephisto]

@@gingfree3383 I have ADHD, I hate going slow and waiting for people to come back from being AFK, or for them to sort through their bags for something, or whatever. When I get into a dungeon, I'm ready to immediately go and not stop until it's done. This is not a bit. I just have no patience for slow players. Keep up or GTFO my group.

[@catrinastars]

And here I was expecting you to comment about rares being max level when you’re still levelling. I’ve encountered a few of those. Didn’t realize they were max level until they started hitting me like a truck. 😅

[@pheonixblue01]

They got me with it once too. The second time, I had invis up and noticed.

[@Roozhy]

As a healer I hate when the tanks where able to basically solo an M+ without regard for anyone else. The whole group would died except the tank. Stupid gameplay. Seeing how level 80 heroic is so far I am really enjoying it. The tanks have to care about what their doing again and it makes for more interesting encounters.

[@antons7210]

Yeah, I've noticed that too. Using my tank cd on the tank actually helps them lol

[@unrighteous8745]

When people complain about something being too hard, the issue is usually that it's just not fun. Difficulty exacerbates other issues. If it were easy, you'd get less people complaining, but more people getting bored and leaving.

[@ko7577]

I enjoyed it even up to BFA. Shadowlands was intolerable. Dragonflight had a decent single player experience, but the dungeons were ass. I've been a day-one buyer of every WOW expansion since Cataclysm. This is the first one I'm not even bothering with.

[@unrighteous8745]

@@ko7577 I haven't played for more than a week at a time since Pandaria, but I get curious each expansion. My curiosity usually isn't enough to actually drop any money though. Different topic, but a monthly sub with a cash shop and expansion box prices just feels gross.

[@h1tm4n26]

"oh no I can't faceroll my way to +15 in one week while watching a movie and eating dinner. Waahh waahh."

[@karieltheone]

As a tank that pugs a lot: The game is not the problem, the player base is the problem.

[@Stodds13]

Too hard?!? I hope it’s harder because I’ve been pulling the dungeon boss to boss on heroic!!! I can’t wait for mythic to open up! Heroic is a joke!! It was supposed to be harder than usual!! Also, I’m so used to dps not interrupting anything. As a DH tank (Been DH main since day 1 Legion), I make very good use of my interrupt, sigils, and Imprison. I hope they don’t make m+ easy! I want a challenge here!! Also, I feel like these dudes are playing with DPS that barely uses damage mitigation!! And they are complaining about m+10 and higher!?!? 95% of the player base won’t be doing that! I’ll have fun just pushing 10’s and occasionally when we want my group will try higher. Also, I remember back when the game first came out, I was a rogue and I had to CC something every pull!! I then switched to Paly in WotLK to tank and we still had CC’s here and there moving into Cata! I don’t know how that would even work in today’s game. Like they said, if you are going to CC something, it has to be super fast and most of the time the CC gets broke anyway, lol I do 100% agree that it’s pathetic people leave after one bad pull. I’ve tanked PLENTY of keys where I pull a group or 2 too many, we wipe, get our asses back there, keep going and +2 the key! People need to not quit so easy, there should be penalties for that!!

[@gelipterzg]

had a dk tank yesterday. the guy pulled 4 groups at the same time, as a 570 druid my eyes popped out when i saw my entire group at 5%. had to pop ubertree just to manage the pull. also, didn't record a single interrupt...

[@Bunniisaurus]

Oh yes so relatable! Then you just get a feeling of stress and be like got to pop cds. When its not needed! Makes ppl turn away from being a healer. I don't mind a little challenge but Tanks relax and Dps interrupt plz

[@jason8967]

this, people never seem to adjust how they're actually playing. Either their class sucks or the content is too hard. Tanks that have gotten so used to pulling half the dungeon are gonna have a bad time, and then never stop pulling half the dungeon and say it's someone else's problem.

[@ThatOneGuy15270]

Had a Paladin in City of Threads that thought he could pull all everything to the first boss, and then was absolutely shocked we all died.

[@Bunniisaurus]

@@ThatOneGuy15270 ohmy that is just insane thinking! I feel ya. 🙁

[@MFobes]

@@ThatOneGuy15270yup. Or pulling everything before the second boss when I’m on a Druid and can’t clear the poison fast enough. Was shocked we died. Like no shit I don’t have poison cleansing totem sorry I’m not playing FOTM lol

[@rypere1788]

I tried TWW for a few hours. The overworld was mind-numbingly boring; mobs were tuned to die almost instantly to spammable aoes and I didn't feel like I was actually playing an evoker, just an azure strike bot. I'd imagine going from that to a dungeon with mechanics and health bars would be very jarring.

[@mufasafalldown8401]

That's the problem. WoW is SUCH A TINY GAME! The overworld, quests, levelling etc are all mind numbingly easy and then Mythic+ is sweaty. Wtf is the problem with making the rest of the game interesting?

[@Onshki]

13:50 Bellular: "This cuts through to something that's been floating around my head the last while and that is-" YT AD: "HAVE YOU EVER WANTED TO BE A NINJA WITH A GUN?" Goddammit KZbin that was actually a sick ad transition. I still hit skip though

[@seanmoyer7589]

Death Knight feels super engaging and like the skill ceiling is high because they have the defensives to handle mechanics and Deathstrike healing. Warriors feel like a drain on the healer’s resources

[@Vaeland]

I think a good change they could make is by giving a significant buff to dps after successfully interrupting something. Like to the point where it’s like using a cooldown. It would change the meta to where players are prioritizing mechanics and the top players would even strategize around who gets to interrupt what and when. If all the guides and all the sims out there are telling you “interrupt to be the best and do most damage” then it solves the issue of people ignoring it for dps sake. Every mistake is compounded on the healer and I think that would shift it away from blaming them to a “I could have popped off there” mindset and incentive healthy gameplay. Other than that they really need to do away with the deplete system with keys, or punish the individual for leaving rather than the group somehow, same way leaver status works in lfg. It’s not an issue when you run with a group but pugging can be insanely toxic and discouraging

[@kosajk]

I see couple problems with that As tauren shaman healer i can interupt 4 casts in a row, while 3 of that being aoe stun/knock up So interupting in my group is not really that big deal, i dont want to argue with everyone that i "stole their buffs"

[@michaellovatt3944]

I swear to god Matt is like a Reddit comment personified, in that he can always be relied upon to bring the dumbest possible takes to the situation as possible. What is the “holy trinity”? Like, no shit tanks need to pull at the groups capabilities, no shit DPS needs to interrupt. Big man’s over here whining about people being mad at him in m+? Do you mean to tell me you haven’t managed to find a group of people to run dungeons with after all these years? Or is it just I’m not the only one who finds this person to just be… grating? Another terrible take, no idea why you are allowed on the show.

[@ultralance7470]

Why not just make a different modes of the game for different people. It’s almost like running a business and selling a product requires you to cater to your customer. Just because these f ups can’t decide which one they want isn’t my problem

[@RIPHorHay]

My buddy tried to get me into wow, when I finally decided to fall into the rabbit hole he joined the army. Been playing completely solo and I’ve been having a blast. I’ve unlocked delve teir 9 and my item levels 592. The world quest are great I just wish there were more of them. The time gates for the coffer keys and and blue quests are quite annoying tho

[@aeronothis5420]

It's almost like every expansion we have this conversation at the very beginning and it always ends the same way. Blizz bows out and lowers the tuning and removes mechanics to make it so all the boosters can zoom zoom and the casual folks can play and earn the best gear. So far I really don't feel like this is all that difficult, like WotLK and BC were much more difficult mechanics wise and much more punishing if you made mistakes. I'm fine with most of the mechanics as is, maybe a small bit fewer swirlys on some mobs but the abilities don't hit that except on the highest difficulties anyways. Needless to say, here we are again whining about "muh game is hard" because they can't pull all the trash into one group and kill it with the boss.

[@HarkinsX]

As long as there is a timer in m+ you will always have a zoom vibe. The days of taking things slow are long gone. If the speed is too much for you then m+ is not what you should be doing.

[@EtBr1978]

I only returned for this expansion after like 6 years. Always been a healer and always will. So after running a lot of hc dungeons the last two days I cannot speak for M+ but I see a that nothing has changed in the last years. Please keep in mind I am only giving you the experience from about 20 runs with the LFG tool. about 50% of tanks just run ahead not paying attention to the group, pull what ever they can find and simply die when their CDs run out. They drastically improved on the second try though and there was NO blaming in chat whatsoever. One out of the 3 DDs ignores all mechanics, dies in ground effects and just pushed the dps. Still NO blaming in chat whatsoever. I am not fully familiar with the recent healing toolkit so I guess half of those deaths / whipes are on me I guess. Still NO blaming in chat whatsoever. So I guess things will work out. A big thanks to all the PUGs I had those last two days as everyone stayed calm, we had a few tries on some trash pulls but in the end nobody left early or was toxic.

[@kye4216]

90% of the players are still chill in m+ but the stakes do make people more likely to criticise others. Nobody will do that in a Heroic dungeon because there’s nothing at stake.

[@OhNoTheFace]

The time making tanks think they need to over pull even when they are not ready is part of the issue as well. That and depletion makes it terrible for everyone and just makes everyone salty

[@jason8967]

@@OhNoTheFace also this. Timer is the primary reason i stopped participating in M+

[@Ayuima69]

@@jason8967 sounds like baby rage to me, the timer only effects increasing the difficulty if you fail the timer then your gear isnt good enough, get better gear and the timer is a non issue unless you are just showing off you can do a +30. If you are gonna quit and not even try to get your gear then thats on you.

[@jason8967]

@@Ayuima69 it’s not a fun mechanic and it pushes people into playing specific ways that introduce toxicity. Good job proving that one with the baby rage comment 😂

[@daniellacomb917]

Yea i tried a played a few dragonflight dunegeons the other day and they were dogshit. Most the time its the other players that are the problem. See how long these dumbasses last in the old TBC heroics trying to pull a whole room.

[@jason8967]

@@daniellacomb917 I enjoyed them for a while as a resto shaman but there was a massive shift sometime in BFA where people just turned into jerks once you got high enough and it was enough to cause most of my friends to bail so I was solo queuing most of the time. Ended up just spending my time in PvP after it just stopped being fun. Watching people fuck up constantly and refuse to change anything was infuriating.

[@sazi]

Taking away all the light sustain of Spriest, elemental shams, Locks, etc. makes it even worse for healers. Give us back our leech skills dammit.

[@s1lenceblade]

The real reason there's so much gold bloat in this xpack so far is so that you can afford the repair bills when your Uber-Pro-God-Tank tries pulling the whole dungeon he's never ran before and wipes you 7 times on normal difficulty.

[@Steinhagen75]

So let me get this straight, they say the game is too hard but refuse to go down to the appropriate key for their item level?

[@xaulted1]

Feels just like the start of Cata. EVERYONE MUST go go go go and AoE everything. Tanks MUST pull the entire dungeon and healers are expected to make everything OK or they suck. This is why almost all healers quit in 2010.

[@CrazeyHaze]

There are a lot players with an over-inflated idea of their abilities. Nowadays, people live by the mantras..."Nerf it" "Respect my time" etc, instead of "Get good"

[@Xariann]

"As a text based AI, I am not allowed to tell you that you are crap, but you really should have interrupted the second spell cast of that mob, and ignored the first cast, while dodging the dark blue AOE on the dark blue floor."

[@enthomorf]

Blizzard loves to lie. They promissed about DF, that player would be able to choose whatever they want for their talent trees. But in practice, in the game itself, we were forced to use the better tree configuration for our talents in order to get better results in Raids or M+ dungeons. So that was a lie. We DONT have freedom of choice with our talents. The other lie was their change in the M+ system. They had told us that this new system would help avarage players to advance and run after better gear. But it was another lie. Cuz at the seqson 4 from DF, even M0 is very hard. M2 even more harder. It was better the way it was before, cuz it had a sense of progression in dificulty. That there isnt present anymore. Thats why its so hard right now. When I felt that dificulty in the ending of DF, I knew thats gonna be worse at WW.

[@rcslyman8929]

I think part of the problem is people treating the dungeons like it's an expansion update, and not a new expansion release. I'm currently tanking heroics to gear up, and everyone wants the go-go-go mentality of whole room pulls, unless it's the boss room in which case, eh, partial clear is just fine, and let's get the boss in it too, while we're at it. Like damn, chill. It's a brand new expansion. Your tank isn't geared yet. Your healer isn't geared yet. You obviously aren't geared yet because you're sitting below me, the tank, on the DPS charts. Quit nuking all the mob packs into the pull. Tank's got the pace. Haven't tried mythics yet, but I can just imagine how bad it's going to be for a bit until gear levels get a little higher, given some of the mechanics. Especially in certain dungeons, like Priory. That badguy consecrate is brutal.

[@OhNoTheFace]

People immediately jump into m+ 10 "This is too hard." Yeah obviously you daft people. But also apparently they can't design fights.

[@sere971]

When players at a very high caliber say something is too hard after spending days of playtime testing it on beta with relevant ilvls, I think I'll take their word more seriously than a vague disagreement from a youtube comment that probably didn't do beta keys at all.

[@stuff4812]

people are jumping into +10s on the beta with gear scaling that blizzard setup. so they are in gear blizzard believes should be fighting a +10 on. when the best players say something is too difficult. thats not an indication its a good player only problem. if something is too hard for a top tier player. some crappy player like you will feel the difficulty on a +2 even after overgearing it. also they said plenty during the beta that it was too hard. mythic plus isnt out yet on the retail. us beta players have been saying they are too strong for weeks and its not hard to do a damage nerf to a dungeon. they jsut havent

[@dylan24848]

@@stuff4812 max Ilvl is gonna be around 630-635 right? On the beta we were scaled to Ilvl 580… I wouldn’t say that’s even close to appropriate Ilvl consider we are stuck to heroic dungeons at 570ilvl on live servers currently

[@dylan24848]

@@stuff4812 and they did nerf all dungeon dmg by like 7% last week?

[@zachellis1902]

tactics over time always. Time limits are just stressful, and usually unrewarding. Having a hard dungeon that you struggle to clear so you take a bit of time to think it out. Thats fun.

[@JoshHolden-Aka-evani]

there is definitely way too much going on in a dungeon now days

[@Novocane23]

People need to realize that the fanbase that still exists for WoW are the ones that probably came from a background playing Warcraft 2-3; your heroes power in Warcraft 3 was directly tied to their level, and stats - with abilities being things you used for certain situations. You didn't spam them usually - and WoW has become so ability intensive, with pressing your abilities in a certain way is the right way - and everything else is wrong. Then stuff began being tuned for doing all of these things the right way, and now the average player has been ostracized from the good players. They made the game too complicated for a lot of people and forgot the basic rule. Keep It Simple Stupid.

[@ravnos04]

There is some tuning that has to be done for sure. On my Spriest I tried a Tier 3 delve solo with a gear score of 556. I couldn’t get past that first elite. I did the same one on a hunter with a gear score of 540 and it was a breeze. Tier 3 said a gear score of 545 is needed and my priest was hitting a paper napkin with all my CD’s. I used Bestial Rage on the mob and it was all good on the normal rotation.

[@andrejjelcic3675]

They need to make trash mobs not trash. Also, they need to make Mythic + not a chore. Nobody wants to play games like they are working or doing homework or chores. FXXX all that jazz.

[@ko7577]

Yep. I retired from WOW last year after a full 19 years of playing it. I'm not even buying this next expansion. The game is glitchy as hell, requires a college course per dungeon, and flat-out isn't intuitive enough anymore to play without add-ons (and who the hell wants to play a game where you have to cheat to win?). It'll always be my favorite game of all-time, but it's just not for me anymore.

[@avinion]

Once agaim In reminded that bellular commenters are just a bunch of hardcore players from back in "Insert Expansion Name" who are just casuals by now and have no clue about balancing the game

[@avinion]

No issue with the game Bunch of whiners When a pack of 4 mobs have more mechanics than a starter mythic raid boss from Dragonflight and a lot of high rio no life m+ players who spent more time training a single high key than those "Game is good, whiners whine" ever spent in m+, telling that the game is balls of the wall hard af are ignored, you get why game is bad.

[@bobby31723]

Having to know everything about the dj AND your teammates before you even begin to do your own job is FAR too demanding for a game.

[@N47H4NI3L]

I'm fine with it being really difficult to do - IF the reward is worth the effort. The problem is that it's extremely difficult and you have to do it over and over to get anything out of it

[@I_am_Maul]

You'd think that after BfA and SL that the pattern is pretty simple: when you tune difficulty for content around the top x% of players, everyone below that line throws in the towel. Every time they try to tilt in the direction of ESPORTS ESPORTS ESPORTS it's failed, but surely one more try won't hurt!

[@nauscakes1868]

My problem with difficulty is that button bloat is my hardlock. If I need more than 9 keys, they're just not getting bound. Interrupts are the perfect example of this. If my whole rotation is 9 keys and I have an interrupt. I can do 99% of wow without interrupting I just won't slot it. And people will say "Just make it work." Nah man. I play for fun, if it's not fun then I won't play it. It's one of the things that games like Guild Wars or FPS games tend to do, have skill checks, but not button bloat. My personal favorite game for difficulty is Hitman. The skill isn't anything to do with rotations or combat, but puzzle solving. And I'm really hoping that Delves end up being a way for "puzzle solvers" like myself can get gear without being super action combat focused. --- Another issue that doesn't get talked about a lot is fatigue. It's one thing to "be perfect for 20 minutes" it's another thing to do it for 4 hours because that's all you're doing is running hard content. Maybe Mythics can be untimed for trash and then timed for boss fights. I still don't like timers though.

[@hebediahgoldbach3031]

Shift plus Q/E/F/1/2/3/4 + Q/E/F/1/2/3/4 plus Y/X/C/V plus MWU/MWD Shift MWU/MWD. And thats not even optimized

[@NotClosedMinded]

There is a video that explains the new difficulty for m+ with a graph that really shows it well. Basically the new mythic plus 0 is basically the old m+10

[@86Corvus]

If you are an amoeba ofcourse hard dungeons make you cry and piss your pants. "I love ignoring mechanics" "i just want top loot for no effort" " catch up alt friendly mechamics ftw"

[@pyrofusiondancer]

Everything is just simply too complicated, too convoluted. The best game of the past 5 years you could literally be naked with a club and beat bosses to death. There are so many ways to make games difficult without overcomplicating it. Blizzard used to understand this, now they don't.

[@strugsi]

They should add a punishment for people leaving your group and dropping your key.

[@cultured956]

Honestly, I want content to be very hard, but classes to play easier. I think the class design is the issue here, not just the content

[@EmpyreanDreamer]

I think its mechanics not classes. As a healer its exactly like Bellular said. You can't react, you have to be prepared for everything, both the predictable stuff and the fuckups. If you aren't then the player in question is guaranteed dead. This is the real issue. It feels so weird that you have moments where incoming damage is relatively chill and then 0.5s later someone is dead and you aren't even sure how they died. The odd 1 shot mechanic is fine but there is a lot of stuff that hits incredibly hard in this expansion. You see it even in delves. Solo tank in delves is scary af at t8 and above... You use one cooldown too early or too late and there a high chance you're gonna die on that pull and by pull I mean like 3-4 mobs max. I think the base scaling they've gone for is just a bit too much. I can only imagine how some dungeons are gonna be at +10.

[@villie8532]

I’m glad Matt is back I missed him.

[@TheRealCeeJai]

So people who are known for pushing the meta of 'pull every mob you can and just heal and deal' are upset because the devs decided to design against that with mobs you have to actually target out, interrupt, and CC? Cry me a river. Dungeons - even M+ dungeons - were never designed to be a three dense messes of nameplates, three bosses, and the end. Look back to the genesis of M+: the Challenge Mode dungeons from MoP. Yes, there was some element of 'how many can we pull at once?", but it was more "if we pull this many, how do we deal with mechanic X and Y". The last couple expansions have left players in the M+ rubric of just pull a ton of stuff, stun, dodge and interrupt what you can - and the heals will pick up the slack otherwise. I don't feel the least bit bad for players who are finding out maybe chain and mass pulling isn't as much fun to most players as it is to a small percentage at the top.

[@hypercynic]

The main issue with M+ is they have half the entire content being shit that some of us grinded out for entire EXPANSIONS, so we now have an entire season being forced to do a bunch of stuff we already are sick of and maybe didn't even like when it was current. I mean, Grim Batol to me was one of the worst dungeons they could've picked from Cata, except for the theming. Obviously there is actually story related stuff that is similar in theme, but I dunno. For M+ grim batol just seems like an awful choice. Mists of Tirna Scithe is one of my all time least favourite dungeons outside of how it looks, but needing to do that dungeon constantly was one thing that made me hate SL. Then you've got Siege of Boralus, something that most people in BFA didn't like. Motherlode would've been a much more fun experience for M+, especially thematically changing things up a bit. Why we can't have all 8 dungeons and 4 dungeons that come back is beyond me. I might legitimately not even want to grind M+ this expansion, meanwhile it's usually my favourite content. Who knows, there is too much to do still and too much unknown for me to know what my feel will truly be for this expansion for quite some time. Being able to play anybody I want is absolutely the biggest win in my book though. I have 52 characters at 70+ so being an alt friendly expansion was necessary for me to actually consider coming back in a more permanent way.

[@sonakthehunter2841]

90% of these points are just "learn the groups u can and cant pull together"

[@Theparadoxd7]

Yessssss exactly what Matt said "I don't understand why depletion is still in the game" 1000%. Only the top 0.001% want it, I'm sorry but I don't care that you will have to go super degen mode and will reset over and over again until you get a pull learned. When almost the entirety of the game will benefit from it, it needs to go into the game. Simple as.

[@Draghful]

I doubt the top 0.001% enjoy the depletion mechanic at all. At least I've never heard anyone talking positively about it. It's just annoying to try to push keys just to make a mistake, miss the timer, deplete the key and thus have to do a dungeon 1 tier lower than the one you actually need/are trying to clear. And then you'd have to be lucky to get upgrade the lower key to the correct dungeon. I always compare it to raiding. Imagine mythic progress raiders wiping on the 4th boss (just for example) and then having to clear the 3rd boss again (on the same day..so before reset) before they can re-try the 4th boss. It's dumb. It's not fun and it hinders progression greatly. It's also really discouraging you from just trying new tactics/testing things out because one mistake can set you back a few hours.

[@Theparadoxd7]

@@Draghful Dorki, Max, Tettles and Dratnos have all said the people they play with don't want no depletion for the reason I stated. But I agree with you 100% I've been campaigning in the comments since like early SL that depletion needs to go but it always felt like it got no traction and even got a lot of pushback at the start. But it does feel like we're winning now and most people are for depletion to go at long last. Nobody values that 40-60min you have to refind a group and do the key on the chance the less skilled players time the key to get back to where you where. NOBODY. This is the single most "just do it" no brainer that has existed since M+ came out, I know the devs value playtime = money spent in shop in most games but I don't think anyone who's depleted a key goes "damn I need to buy something from the store" ever. At the very very least give 3 sets of 3-4 keys with a symbol and that key allows you to do one of the dungeons in that pool and it rerolls when you finish. Just let us pick the level up top what we have done +1.

[@Draghful]

@@Theparadoxd7 So you're saying that those top players are in favor of the depletion mechanic because they don't want to feel forced into resetting instances over and over again in order to perfect a pull? I kind of understand that but on the other hand I also don't... Without depletion we could do way more experimentation which would, imo, be really exciting. I'd also assume it'd reduce toxicity (because keys can't be depleted), reduce anxiety of some players and also reduce the "meta dick riding" people already adopt at rather low key levels. If a key can't get depleted then people may be more inclined to invited non-meta classes because they don't lose as much when things go south. Ultimatetly the removal of the depletion mechanic would benefit over 99% of the m+ playerbase. At least in my opinion. So even if the top 0.01% would dislike that change, I'd say it's worth it. If they don't want to get ultra degen mode and reset a dungeon over and over again, then they simply don't have to.

[@Theparadoxd7]

@@Draghful Agreed I don't understand the and I quote dorki exactly "homework keys are fun". Yeah sure they get to chill out when doing it and can make mistakes but for the rest of us that don't stream it's just a complete waste of time.

[@lovropeter9988]

​@@Theparadoxd7 are you sure they said that, cause that sounds extremely made up when people that do the tournaments say they prefer tournament realm because they can just reset the key until they learn it

[@Rasterizing]

The problem is that everyone wants the highest levels, best gear and doesn't want to put the work in for it. There are multiple difficulty levels - normal, heroic, mythic, m+ and people should play the content that they're able to do (stay in your lane) or if they're wanting to progress and put the effort in, learn the fights and mechanics and work up. Most WoW players are spoilt crybabies who don't want to put the effort in, but want the best rewards. If you can't do m+ then don't - you can still do all the content in the game with heroic/mythic 0 gear and you don't *need* it do to the content you're doing. If we flip it on its head, everyone can do m+30 and faceroll everything - people will cry that it's too easy and boring. People need to essentially, check themselves. In terms of interrupting and CC - make DPS use them and incentivise them. Gain 10% damage for 5-10 seconds after a successful interrupt/CC. I guarantee you that gameplay will go through the roof because DPS want big numbers and even see an ogcd button as a "waste of time". Give them a benefit for doing it, bigger numbers, and they'll 100% press it. I will die on this hill!

[@stelthy3450]

While everyone is complaining that classes have way too many skills to use, blizz is sitting back creating more. No character should need to use shift or control with other keys to make room for more skills unless they prefer to use that combination. My finger while moving at the aame time can reach 1-6 q,e,r,f,g,h,w,a,s,d,z,x,c,v and space bar. Yet i have to use shift + whatever in order to make things stay close to my keyboard hand. This actually got worse in TWW. This all invludes macros as well. Its time for an overhall of this aspect of the game. Needs to be simplified. I cant imagine someone starting out new to this game and lasting more than a month. TWW looks like blizz got lazy. DF areas looked amazing for the most part and Valdraken was beautiful. This xpac feels like we just took it way back

[@CharlieWinterTV]

Too hard? Even leveling feels mundane and completely useless by how fucking easy it is.

[@Iurisetpoena]

You know I hate that my shadow priest’s bubble ain’t purple and instead is light, like wtf you do it voidly.

[@gregww101]

Even in heroics, as a healer I find myself popping cooldown far more on trash. People are definitely pulling more than they can handle.

[@nukesfleet]

I love you nerds. I would give anything to participate in this discussion, but largely I agree on all points. Cognitive load is a huge point to bring up, especially as we all get older.

[@socialz2000]

The problem is that Blizz has a whole new generation of Sissys playing that really dont know how to play! they think that running in and pulling 30 mobs is normal! they dont know what CC and how to pull groups! But keep it up the more ya cry Blizz will give ya want you want a My Little Pony MMO!

[@MarekGamer76]

When the goal in the game or dungeon is to just get it done as fast as possible, that is a problem. There should be some enjoyment of the content itself and the progression through the content. When its always just a mad rush for a probability of a drop, which is the real reason for running the content, then why have the content itself? There is something broken in the game design when it becomes solely about the end result and not the journey. Min-maxing can be fun, but not when it's the expected low bar for running core content.

[@Alucard2356]

Them adding so many must interrupt abilities on trash seems like an issue of them fighting robots with addons. As someone that keeps addons to a minimum now, it's tough to know what I'm supposed to interrupt until after catastrophy hits and the group falls apart before I can even learn what happened.

[@imagineenjoying6664]

Oh this aged really well for the Delve changes today lol

[@trancer03]

as a tank so far its been super easy to do normals and heroics. i can play this with one hand for now.

[@SomeBlackDude26]

Balancing a game for an eSport that no one cares about will always make it worse.

[@bcfuerst]

Mobs should simply one or two shot tanks if they hit them in the back. 90% of my frustration with the game boils down to DH tanks sprinting through the fucking dungeon

[@IshayuG]

The whole bloody point of higher health pool was lower relative damage. What the heck?!

[@TheBigdaddydude]

Isn’t he the idiot that sent a cease & desist to another person with a similar name that also had name BEFORE him?

[@BenJonesart]

One thing ive seen on the stops so far has been when you use a grip or a stun on casting mob, they not only start to recast it immediately but also many times the cast goes FASTER than the original. On my DK it doesn't feel too bad as a dps cause i have a self heal, but on mage its not so great lol.

[@jeramiahcox6976]

Welcome to the Heroics of Cataclysm... same haters.

[@stacyscott5104]

It’s the beginning of an expansion and your hero talents aren’t maxed and your gear is crap. Fight through it.

[@adamtajhassam9188]

Systems are way too complicated. Flying freely has not been addressed. the sheer amount of GREED does not bring people togther either.

[@phatymcdaddy]

This is nothing new. It's the beginning of the expansion, unoptimized gear, no tier, things are harder. In a few weeks this will be forgotten

[@mikedarling905]

i actually have had no problem so far playing. as a dps monk. i leveled quick in early access. and did so many things. and i wreck all elites ( for the most part). nothing really stands in my way, i know i cant fight 50 mobs at once. but i know my limits.

[@basil8940]

Clearly the actual problem is that melee dps are just bad players, and Blizzard denies ranged dps access to any tanking roles - an oversight they should've fixed 15 years ago.

[@Pheribe]

I really enjoy it so far. Hope it gets even harder so that they won’t get to pull a full dungeon not even in Normal mode. I’m playing a healer and i find this pulling crazy as hell, without any sense, no fun at all. As i said, hope it gets even harder, i really do hope this!

[@adaneshade]

All the changes have done is lower the theoretical highest key an individual can run. The rewards being more appropriate for the difficulty compared to raids is a healthy change. Above the maximum reward level, keys are literally just a competition. (one in which everyone struggles the same, so what's the difference in capping at a 20 vs a 25? Also, you should not be able to fail mechanics and expect not to die in a mythic.