Is There An Iraq War Genre?

[@mat_j]

it's basically: US troops - sensitive, complex, dealing with the trauma of war Iraqis - NPC

[@Papersheepp]

I mean, maybe because they are American movies with Americans in lead roles? Many Iraq war films are anti-war....

[@dgenxali]

@@edwardkito2794 spot on , my friend

[@mat_j]

@@Papersheepp you think?...hs

[@tamacat920]

how americans see the rest of the world, really

[@faisalal-bandar6680]

Iraqi checking in. Do you get to the Cloud District very often?

[@lordvader903]

reminds me of the sentence that goes something like "America will invade your country,kill your people and then 10 years later make a film about how tough it was for the american troops "

[@NowYouSeeIt]

Haha do you have a source for this? That's perfect

[@lordvader903]

@@NowYouSeeIt i think i heard it 3-4 years ago but i dont remember who it was, might have been a comedian

[@ryanguthrie2317]

@@NowYouSeeIt Frankie Boyle: Hurt Like You've Never Been Loved (2016 TV Special)

[@DeathnoteBB]

And no citizens will realize how absolutely it is propaganda and instead insist “That’s just what happened”

[@ryanguthrie2317]

The full, correct quote is: "American foreign policy is horrendous 'cause not only will America come to your country and kill all your people, but what's worse, I think, is that they'll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad."

[@acetrigger1337]

World War 2 Movies: focus on the modest men that were called into duty, to face a unquestionable evil force. Vietnam War Movies: focus on the trauma of young soldiers going into extremely foreign territory without proper preparation. Iraq War Movies: show Americans doing good... because Terrorism.

[@apothecurio]

Yeah the difference is the Iraq war, we are the bad guys.

[@acetrigger1337]

@@apothecurio one could argue that most Iraq War Movies are afraid of showing the "Enemy's side", because they would look like the villain in the story.

[@salim444]

> TeErRoIsM FTFY

[@kostajovanovic3711]

@@apothecurio but in Vetnam the, were good?

[@CloroxBleach-cq7tj]

@@apothecurio ah yesss, and Saddam Hussein was the good guy...

[@Hakeem-uz1ng]

I'm an Iraqi, yeah, totally agree. One thing that caught my eye was this scene 3:05, there is no way in hell this is anything close to reality. Back then, any wrong turn in an area with American presence immediately renders you dead, no negotiations, only one wrong turn and you will be sponge holed. I had a relative that died this way. There is no way in hell that man got closer than 80m without being killed.

[@nooranik21]

What I find interesting, is that many Iraq and Afghanistan vets really don't identify with these movies at all. From what my Iraq and Afghanistan veteran friends have told me the piece of media they most closely identify with is "Generation Kill." I find it interesting that "Generation Kill" does indeed ask the moral questions that these movies about Iraq and Afghanistan do not.

[@JMann3030]

Was about to comment this, gen kill is such an accurate depiction of military life. Id reccomend anybody to watch it.

[@Advent3546]

I'm not familiar Generation Kill. What moral questions do they ask?

[@nooranik21]

@@Advent3546 HBO mini series from 2008. It shows how the men on the ground believed the war to be pointless. It also demonstrates the daily frustrations they have like arguing with superiors. It's very much from an enlisted perspective. The question it mainly asks is "what's the point of being here." A lot of it was subtle and lost on me and to it had to be explained to me by my vet friends. It kinda flopped on the graeter audience because of how niche it was towards vets.

[@Advent3546]

@@nooranik21 Sounds like my kind of war movie. I'm definitely searching this one out.

[@aarnoman1088]

@@Advent3546 Mini-series. It's about 7 hours long. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Kill_(miniseries) Would highly recommend it, watched it twice over now.

[@segovio]

No one wanted to sponsor this, yet you did it... Now I see it.

[@benevolentworldexploder5395]

Okay. Are we going to forget all the insane crap that happened in The Hurt Locker because of the dangerous mentality of its central character? The Hurt Locker does not glorify James. He is painted as an adrenaline junky, and a danger to everyone around him. So many conflicts in The Hurt Locker occur because of confusion, delusions, and misunderstanding that he stands in the center of. The movie is a character study of James and his loss of love in anything but his "job". He confuses the boy who he hangs out with regularly, and buys DVDs from, as being dead and then goes on a hunt. He sneaks off base in the middle of the night to seek vengeance for a death that didn't involve his friend. Hell, would he have even cared if he didn't insert a personal fear and delusion into the situation? This whole sequence occurs because he believes he is righting a wrong, but then he doesn't even get the details right at all. He sees a bad thing happen, but then turns it into something personal to justify an incredibly stupid decision. This is an ongoing problem through the whole movie. The end of the movie isn't just about his trauma. He decides that his life at home is too mundane and he reenlists specifically to be emersed in the chaos and confusion because he's developed a taste for it. It's hard to see these things when the movie has so much of the typical crap that pro war movies portrayed at the time, but my sense of James is that he justifies conflict in order to produce a war that satisfies himself. That, to me, is exactly what the Iraq War was. I will admit, however, that this movie could easily be seen as pro war despite all this, and that's not okay. That means the messages were intentionally muddied up to be more digestible, and that is disappointing. So while I am annoyed that this was not mentioned in the video, I get why it might not have been considered due to the message being so nonspecific. Iraq War genre has a very bizarre identity crisis, because support and opposition of the war has always been a mixed bag.

[@tayloraverett3138]

I think you hit the nail on the head with Hurt Locker. It’s sad to seem that the point was missed by so many.

[@Spider-Too-Too]

You have to shit off the empathy side of your brain in order to kill. And if you can’t switch your brain back, you got PTSD

[@ferghalicious1480]

“Americans making movies about what invading other people’s countries did to their soldiers is a bit like a serial killer telling you what stopping suddenly for hitchhikers did to his clutch.” - Frankie Boyle

[@kjetilsenNOWAY]

I think generation kill mini series is a perfect depiction of the invasion.

[@dannyfratina3901]

Came here to say this. Generation Kill is the actual Great Iraq War film - except it's a 7-part tv show instead of a film. It has the most to say in all the right ways and stacks up to great films about previous wars in similar ways.

[@dnrfrank]

@@dannyfratina3901 I'd say it's a 7 part movie, you can't really watch one episode separate from the others and fully understand the plot

[@DanielEarl]

"Don't question why you're fighting, just fight who we tell you to" -the government

[@AxxLAfriku]

HELP MY!!! My muscles are too big! I am a big tall man and my muscles are even BIGGER! I use them to get views but they HURT so much!!! Because they are heavy. Do you have any advice, dear dan

[@El-Burrito]

@Lazer Person I googled it

[@Spider-Too-Too]

@Lazer Person they are some damn fine dancers

[@sarroumarbeu6810]

"it's for a good cause, probably"- the gouvernement, again.

[@themroc8231]

The best Irak war movie was Brian De Palma's Redacted in 2007, but almost no one saw it in the US and it even received a boycott at the time for being "unpatriotic"

[@LucasVenturoso]

So you're saying Redacted got Redacted?

[@themroc8231]

@@LucasVenturoso The ending sequence that was suposed to be a montage of pictures of Iraki victims was actuallly redacted by Mark Cuban and the guys at Magnolia Pictures.

[@arkaprabhadeb2432]

@@themroc8231 that says a lot about "Free Speech", doesn't it? You question something they do and you get labled Anti-National and unpatriotic instantly!

[@user-kd5th1fo2r]

@@arkaprabhadeb2432 almost all Americans are like that, if you oppose their way of thinking they will immediately try to silence you

[@Ward413]

kar jet *Generalizes a population of 320 million*

[@peterbrickwood3204]

"Sand Castle" is a balanced look at the barbarity of war.

[@dylanrompel4186]

Sand Castle is a great

[@Bertiebaby]

Generation Kill is the only "Iraq War" non-documentary drama that I think is worth much of anything. Jarhead is good too. Movies like American Sniper and The Hurt Locker are awful jingo crap dressed up fancy to not be too obvious about it.

[@NowYouSeeIt]

Oh I will have to check this out. If it's made by the same people who made The Wire I am in!

[@kjetilsenNOWAY]

@@NowYouSeeItits my favorite series ever actually.

[@AaronSmith1]

Don't forget "Three Kings"

[@acetrigger1337]

@@AaronSmith1 that was solid movie.

[@londonjolly9174]

@@NowYouSeeIt It's the best depiction of the military I've seen, TV or film.

[@RawBerserker]

I'm so sad that my country and religion are only ever used in movies for negativity. Even the new Aladdin (where the original Aghrabbah was meant to be a fictional city based in Iraq) is made more of an Indian Bollywood story. We can't even keep our own fairytales.

[@NowYouSeeIt]

Wow I never thought of how they changed Aladdin like that. Any movies/TV you would recommend that actually do justice to your country/religion?

[@RawBerserker]

@@NowYouSeeIt Honestly..... I can't really think of any. In terms of country I'm really at a loss trying to come up with one. As for religion, there's some characters that come to mind, though they're again quite minor. Yensen from Iron Man is a great example. Someone who helps a stranger as best he could, and is willing to die to protect him. Also the fact that even though his life is in danger, would rather shoot into the air than at the people trying to kill him. And I'd say My Name Is Khan is one movie that also stands out, if you haven't seen it. If I can think of anything else, I'll be sure to come back and say.

[@alandiaz5184]

But doesn't the original Aladdin story happen in China?

[@yvesadlaurent6675]

Gregor Samsa this is an unhelpful take considering they are referring to the disney aladdin version

[@RawBerserker]

@@alandiaz5184 Yeah so the original tale describes the setting as "Somewhere in China", which is standard old Arabic phrasing for "A far away land". Another example would be an Islamic saying, "Seek knowledge, even if it is in China". So technically, yeah, the setting is China, but other than that, all other details refer to Arabia. There's no other reference to anything Chinese within the story in terms of characters, beliefs and ideologies. And there are other general things such as there being a Sultan and not an Emperor, and the fact that a genie/jinn is of Arabian folklore. So while the story is set "Somewhere in China", it's still very much an Iraqi story. Also, I guess I worded it wrongly, but I meant how the original movie was based in a fictional Iraqi city. My bad.

[@hecticfreeze]

The whole video I was hoping you'd mention Jarhead, even though it's technically a different war, so was super happy when it showed up. The way it portrays how normal men are turned into monsters in order to get a job done that ultimately ends up being futile and pointless is such a great analogy for all war, not just those in the middle east. I know it wasn't well received when it came out but I've always loved it for being one of the few war films that needs no action scenes at all to get its point across

[@dkroll92]

One note: Saving Private Ryan is about Rangers and the guys in the Deer Hunter are literal Special Forces. By comparison, the EOD guys in Hurt Locker are actually conventional troops. EOD is a unique job, but is ultimately just a job. It's not a special ops unit, though there are special ops EOD units Another reason why GWOT movies would show SOF units as being over-represented is because the majority of operations in the GWOT, especially before 2003 and after 2010, were carried about by SOF units. For about the past 5 or 6 years now, for example, about 99% of operations overseas have been carried about by SOF units. Conventional infantry units, when they deploy at all, aren't going outside the wire and doing missions. They're either guarding locations, training host nation forces, or both.

[@katamariroller2837]

Conventional forces have seen plenty of action. They are the ones getting ambushed, blown up by IEDs, and besieged when they choose a bad place to set up a base. The reason most GWOT movies feature special forces is that special forces are more glamorous and give off the impression that it is these elite, divine warriors taking the fight to the enemy, and not flesh and bone neighbours of the audience exposing their human bodies to bullets and shrapnel.

[@AdzoHeatzo]

Most of these films would have been produced in tandem with either the U.S. Army or the C.I.A. So the overarching genre would be propaganda

[@RealBadGaming52]

actually they all are, all modern warfare films are CIA, Army Propaganda becasue the military will provide tanks and stuff and money. Anti-war films usually arent funded by the amry

[@demongrenade2748]

The only show I've ever consistently seen praised by Iraq war veterans is Generation Kill. It examines both what it was like to be there and the moral complexity faced by the invading marines/occupying US forces. Its dialogue and procedures are also spot on according to those I know who were deployed to Iraq. Granted most of who I know where in the army (not the marines like in the show) and were deployed years after the initial invasion, but somehow they all still comment on how unbelievably accurate the show is. As a side note, Just about every Iraq war vet I know really don't like the Hurt Locker. Or they flat out hate it.

[@BarnyWaterg8]

What if I said you can support the troops by not supporting the conflict...?

[@timonschneider6290]

Yes and no. Most of the time "Support the troops" is just an unreflected militarist punchline. Since I do not give the benefit of the doubt to militarists and other fascists, it's up to you to prove me wrong in assuming you are a militarist whenever you just use the punchline.

[@SaintSC05]

@@timonschneider6290 I'd say its a pretty dangerous line of logic to think someone is a fascist based on a pretty common phrase.

[@DOPEdwarf]

they were volunteers, nope. And the immorality of the iraqi war was well evident everywhere and most of the world condemned it, there is no excuse of "ignorance"

[@timonschneider6290]

@@SaintSC05 I don't think logic cares about how many people say it. I am German so naturally I am bewildered by the ubiquity of militarism and fascist tropes in American mainstream culture. Ofc not everyone who ever says that is a fascist in the strict sense of the word but I have rarely heard that used in a way that is not meant to delegitimize critique of the military when critique was ample and necessary.

[@SaintSC05]

@@timonschneider6290 I said line of logic. What I'm saying is I think it's dangerous to accuse someone of being a fascist based on something so harmless especially considering the current political climate where that accusation carries real consequences. It's a phrase that has no meaning beyond what the exact words are. I think you're giving undue power to it. I believe it's possible to critique the military while still supporting the actual troops. That's what the original poster was saying. People state that they support the troops while disagreeing with the action in Iraq and Afghanistan for example. Nothing wrong with having a standing army.

[@JakeAustriaco]

90% of Iraq & Afghanistan war films are utter trash. Besides Jarhead & Generation Kill I haven't seen a good, honest one. So many great, honest Vietnam war films like Platoon, Apocalypse Now, Rescue Dawn... I haven't personally been deployed to either, luckily; however any veteran can tell you how most of these films are utter trash and wholly inaccurate (Hurtlocker, Green Zone) or some propaganda piece like American Sniper... Even Jarhead & Generation Kill do not give an honest perspective of the Iraqi or Afghani points of view. I also wish you would've done more research on the military, how it works, and perspectives of Iraq & Afghanistan veterans before making this video; because I feel like the video itself shows a lot of assumptions on how the modern military is and works based on these films; almost all of which put no effort into research of their own. I think it's really ironic that most people who've served in the contemporary era hate all of these films and how disingenuous it is; but you being a regular audience member like the general American audience have a very different view, expectation of both today's military, it's veterans and because of that these films. A genuine war film from today would probably look like Platoon without cannabis or a draft; only most of the people who did volunteer did so with misinterpretations about the military and false expectations about what they'd gain from it. I think your take-away about torture and good vs evil were accurate however, and I think your overall analysis of the trend of these Iraq War Films is also accurate, regardless of whether or not the films themselves are or aren't. Your analysis of Jarhead is really great though, and how people get distracted by spectacle. Would it surprise you if I told you that at the MEPS station (basically where recruits officially enlist in the military and sign their contract) they were playing Jarhead in the lobby? That these kids, myself included fell into the exact same mistake that the characters in Jarhead do watching Flight of the Valkries? I think this has to do entirely with the fact we allow children to join the military. The minimum age to fight should be 25 not 18...

[@peterbrickwood3204]

"Dead Presidents" is an interesting look at Viet Nam vets. Chuck Hogan also wrote books where cadres of vets are recruited to rob banks. Was a time when a lot of prisons were filled with veterans.

[@JakeAustriaco]

@@peterbrickwood3204 Thank you for the recommendation, I'll definitely check it out. I should say, however being released in 95, it might be less of an Iraq war film and more of a Gulf War film. Same region but they're very different wars; and the Gulf War is significantly shorter than Iraq & Afghanistan.

[@ComfortableTool86]

@@JakeAustriaco really interesting and ironic parallel between you and other recruits watching jarhead and probably misinterpreting it just like the characters of jarhead did the same

[@JakeAustriaco]

@@ComfortableTool86 Yea, I really didn't see it back then. They would love to mention how things sucked but that built this great deep camaraderie. In some ways it did but that didn't forgive the poor treatment let alone what we were doing over there.

[@VioletSadi]

Jake “got lost on my way to college, sir!” Struck me, not having seen Jarhead, as kind of accurate to those 18 year olds you mention. The way higher education is so ridiculously expensive makes it seem like a fair deal based on how war movies show it, but the experience is so shockingly distant from what was suggested

[@Crick1952]

The Torture Report w/ Adam Driver is an Iraq war movie told from the home front that even calls out Zero Dark Thirty Also the Green Zone w/ Matt Damon is about the cover up that there were no WMD's in Iraq

[@Yevjer]

War crimes aren’t a “mistake” that’s honestly a very infuriating statement. American war crimes are often the result of bigotry and the complete devaluation of other peoples live while valuing American live as equivalent to 1000’s of Iraqis and Afghans

[@plaguedoctorjamespainshe6009]

Mistake in the meaning of morally wrong instead of an necessary evil like a lot of iraq war movies portray

[@tymaa9349]

As a Middle Eastern, America’s involvement here wasn’t just pointless but harmful to us. Iraq was so much better before the US needed oil

[@RajkumarSingh-dq8be]

You gave me a new perspective on war movies.

[@NowYouSeeIt]

Glad to hear it!

[@PunishedPapa69]

Even though it's not in Iraq, to me Sicario seems like the breakdown of these kinds of movies. It turns the special forces into a morally ambiguous group that would do anything to accomplish a mission, regardless of whether the results will make any difference in the end.

[@frecklesofdoom]

I don't know if I agree with your analysis (still thinking it over), since there's still a "coolness" factor to Benicio Del Toro's character in Sicario. He is vicious and dispassionate in a way a lot of young American men (I think) admire; so, like Apocalypse Now, an average moviegoer might come away missing the larger ethical point and embracing the gratuitous violence. But you raise an interesting point about what films are not explicitly about the Iraq war yet function as commentary on that war anyway. (Btw I say all this despite the fact that Sicario is one of my all-time favorite films!)

[@joshuasheetz9253]

More people need to see Generation Kill. Still the best take on the Iraq War.

[@JacenLP]

I have been shouting "Jarhead" in my head until 8:30. Thanks for making me see how different it is to the other Iraq war movies. I ... hadn't realized it until now.

[@uncomfortablecat]

This is like a Lindsay Ellis video and it's a good thing.

[@NowYouSeeIt]

Easily the nicest compliment I've gotten on this video

[@LuxiBelle]

hotdogs.gif

[@kostajovanovic3711]

It lacks cinycism

[@uncomfortablecat]

@@kostajovanovic3711 and rage towards Michael Eisner and Something Something Capitalism.

[@bajamarbass]

Not enough Phantom of the Opera references

[@needy3535]

So you mentioned that those movies don't question whether or not we should even be in Iraq. But i would argue that this is not what these movies are about. I think they're much more focused in soldier psychology and mentality. When you're a soldier its not your job to ask why you're there. As a soldier, your unit deploys, and then you're there in the shit. At that point soldiers aren't fighting for their country or the country their in. They're fighting for their friends to the left and right. I think most people if they put themselves in their place they'd think the same thing. Im not gonna say its not propaganda, but I don't think thats all it serves as. There is a warrior class of people. There are people who value honor and duty and who don't want an easy comfortable life. The people in these movies are based on real soldiers. And they do real, crazy shit to protect their friends or fellow soldiers.

[@needy3535]

@@edwardkito2794 true but thats because these stories aren't about them. Just because a film is about the Iraq war or the middle east in general doesn't mean every single one of those films needs to have those perspectives. The films are about American soldiers and thats okay. It's not these films fault that there isn't another one out there looking at it from the Iraq peoples perspective. Of course there's warrior classes in every culture. But again, thats not what these movies are about.

[@needy3535]

@@edwardkito2794 war is extremely nuanced. There are objectively evil groups that we are fighting. Genocidal groups. To say that there's not good people that get caught up in that is probably not true. But everyone has a reason for fighting. Everyone thinks they are just in what they are doing. Everyone is the hero of their own story. But that doesn't mean that what they're doing is truly good. You could argue this for America, the innocent civilians, or the genocidal, extremist terrorist who use women and children as shields.

[@noidontwantthat7237]

Needy Orphans Your country might have destroyed some of those “objectively bad” regimes but also destroyed even more innocent people’s lives, problem is that those movies never mention the sheer amount of civilian casualties

[@chimedemon]

I was born in 2003, and my parents were going to be sent to Iraq. From the very beginning my dad thought the entire situation was shady, and after he realized he might end up shooting someone or getting shot without really knowing why, he did his own research. He told me that a commander said to him that "you're a good person, but a terrible soldier". He took that as a complement. My parents realized that they were going into Iraq to mainly fight for oil, realizing the brainwashing that can occur when you don't exactly know what you're fighting. What exactly is a war on terror? If it's against possible terrorists... then anyone can become a possibility. You can have the power to demonize an entire group with saying "war on terror". My parents didn't agree with that, and when my mom was pregnant with me, they saw it as the best way to get out. My dad is now a straight up pacifist, constantly researching the history of everything, and constantly questioning everything. One thing he has never changed his mind about, this war is fucking pointless.

[@MaiaPalazzo]

Sounds like you got wonderful parents.

[@binterwinterboyii1095]

A bit off topic (and a year late) but personally after seeing stuff like MGS 3 and Mickey was Here I came to the same conclusion that being a good soldier is jack compared to being a good person

[@errhka]

I think what The Hurt Locker did best is that it is using film form to communicate the danger of being constantly under the threat of being attacked. So while it's not accurate in terms of... really anything to do with the military, it does do a fantastic job of keeping you on the edge of your seat the entire time worrying for the safety of everyone onscreen.

[@jarrodb4699]

I remember watching Jarhead when I was like 14 and having it go way over my head!

[@doodledibob]

"The Men Who Stare At Goats" is the movie about American identity and the Iraq War I think you're looking for.

[@Guruc13]

Incredible - thanks for bringing attention to this. I'd also like to point out Jarhead 2 is a film that also perfectly missed the point of Jarhead: Folding Ideas has a great video about it. "Do you want Jarhead sequels? This is how you get Jarhead sequels!

[@RandallStephens397]

@8:19 the Iraq war's "Apocalypse Now" was done as a video game in Spec Ops: The Line

[@victroiumsheepo8585]

Both are based on the novel "Heart of darkness" tho

[@Statusinator]

The Line takes place in the United Arab Emirates. Not Iraq, lest you forget.

[@augustgreig9420]

I think it should be important to point out how much influence the Department of Defense, Pentagon, and CIA have on these kinds of films. They are very engaged in Hollywood.

[@trololo_zhirnota]

No comments on "Generation Kill" from HBO?

[@layoverbear]

He said in a comment that he hasn't seen it, but will check it out :)

[@noco7243]

Goes against his narrative

[@punkdennyz]

I'd like to point out that on most of the American "detective" Shows, The middle east is the enemy. It's boring and plays on xenophobia and Islamaphobia, and they suck for that.

[@oneortwowilldo]

middle east deez nuts lmao

[@BarnyWaterg8]

It’s propaganda

[@NowYouSeeIt]

Thank you for pointing this out. Xenophobia is a looming reality in all these movies that focus on American soldiers and show them as the "good guys." It's also why I highly recommend watching Four Lions, a satire that is still from the Western perspective (they are British), but it actually stars people of Middle Eastern origin.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

@@NowYouSeeIt "we have bombed the mosque"

[@soorian6493]

Beyond the borders of the US does not live a lesser people.

[@JohnDoe-bm5lp]

I love vietnam but could never stand american made middle east movies, it just feels like propaganda to me, I think about Abu ghraib, drone strikes...

[@zachfernando5006]

you forgot to mention generation kill buddy. that one's like full metal jacket in iraq

[@zalac153]

But it doesnt follow his narrative so I assume he ignored it on purpose

[@kostajovanovic3711]

@@zalac153 or he hasn't seen it at that point

[@noco7243]

@@zalac153 Yeah. It would be a shame if he were to see a movie that doesn't say "Murica bad, white man bad!"

[@harshbansal7982]

@@noco7243 bruh what. Why do you feel like need to include race huh ?

[@paisleepunk]

@@kostajovanovic3711 I assume this is the case. I think he even says so in a reply to one of the comments.

[@gentlemandemon]

It's worth noting at 4:12 that Vietnam Vets weren't particularly miss treated by the American public. That was an urban myth used to criticize the anti-war movement, but it's totally unfounded, especially when you consider the number of vets that protested against the war. They were mostly screwed by the government, but then again most vets get screwed by the government.

[@peterbrickwood3204]

I'm Canadian but I was alive then and I think the anti-war movement treated returning Viet Nam vets very badly. I haven't seen it for years but I remember "Coming Home" as pretty accurate.

[@gentlemandemon]

@@peterbrickwood3204 I'm not going to discount you're lived experience, but all the evidence I've seen has been against the idea, mixed, or purely anecdotal. In a country like the US where we lionize military service, the claim feels sketchy. And it's not impossible that the Mandela effect is playing a role.

[@peterbrickwood3204]

@@gentlemandemon What is the Mandela Effect?

[@gentlemandemon]

@@peterbrickwood3204 I'd say google it, but the tl;dr is that memory has a tendency to drift over time and can sometimes lead to drastically misremembering events. Like with this, decades of the suggestion that Vietnam vets were mistreated can recolor people's memory of vets being mistreated.

[@michaellynch4073]

I thought American sniper was an anti-Middle East war film because of the PTSD shown but that was obviously what I was bringing to it.

[@leftenantthunder]

I think it is only anti-war from the American POV. It seems to say "war is bad because it makes our soldiers sad" instead of offering any more complex or nuanced take. It says nothing about why the actual war might be bad, and only uses the Iraqi perspective for violent torture porn (hand drill execution scene).

[@kleko]

Poor american sniper got ptsd after invading a country for nothing. It's always amazing how many yanks don't understand that they've been the bad guy since the fall of the soviet union.

[@peterbrickwood3204]

I recall reading James Jones novels and getting as sense of PTSD caused by WWII which was a "good" war.

[@calebcampbell5951]

Patrick Winter Are you implying he deserved to get PTSD for falling victim to the vast amount of military propaganda and schemes by recruiters here in the US? There’s a reason the US gets so many recruits. They sweeten the pot and influence our culture into praising and worshipping our veterans, so I would be so insensitive

[@kleko]

@@calebcampbell5951 Good point. I don't feel sorry for any veteran of a war of agression, but I see your point. The film however and it's makers are all guilty of all murders done by people inspired by it.

[@AshTheAntiHero]

Love you man! Can't wait to check this out

[@Avengerie]

"it's evil, we've seen it here" >skulls on the Humvee >skull on the bandana mask >listens to death metal >plays FPS shooters in the barracks Reminds me of the "Are we the baddies" Mitchell and Webb sketch - watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU .

[@AeselElisabeth]

This was on my 'Watch Later' for about 9 months, but damn what a great take! Premium content, this!

[@ethanbainbridge1333]

I'm not a film student but damn I love your videos. It pulls me closet and closer to making my own film

[@thealexgator]

Just want to point out that some of the movies referenced (Lone Survivor, Zero Dark Thirty) aren’t about the Iraq War, they’re Afghanistan and Pakistan movies. Different war that shouldn’t be conflated as the same as Iraq.

[@MasterofGamesBr]

They are part of the larger war on terror movies, analysing those would be much more productive since just a few movies were made about only the Iraq war.

[@TheMogul23]

QUESTION: Based on your general summary of the tropes of an Iraq war movie, is Starship Troopers kind of an Iraq war movie then? i.e. Framed entirely as gung-ho propaganda for the side who start to look more and more like the villains the longer you think about it.

[@superfortressstudios]

I know it's an HBO miniseries and not a film, but I think Generation Kill fits in fairly well with the Jarhead section of the Iraq war genre and was disappointed it was not discussed. It also has direct contrast from the same network in Band of Brothers and The Pacific. While Band of Brothers was basically Saving Private Ryan: true story edition, and The Pacific was extremely dark, neither questioned the war they were set in, or whether the protagonists were fighting a 'just cause.' In direct contrast Generation Kill had it's main protagonist (Sgt. Colbert) growing more and more disillusioned as the invasion continued, while (like Jarhead) showing often glamourized units (snipers and marine recon in Jarhead and Generation Kill respectively) bypassed by the pace of the war; with Generation Kill highlighting the inept leadership (both military and political) during the invasion. I understand that you must limit the scope of the video for time, but I still think you missed probably the 'best' example of anti-war Iraq War visual entertainment.

[@LiveDieTrolling]

"While Band of Brothers was basically Saving Private Ryan: true story edition, and The Pacific was extremely dark, neither questioned the war they were set in, or whether the protagonists were fighting a 'just cause.'" Generation Kill highlighting the inept leadership (both military and political) during the invasion." SOME WHAT, They also showed the GOOD leadership skills of Godfather and the HQ of the invasion.

[@_gamma.]

Wow, you did a really good job on this video. Thank you

[@zakiowais6829]

Don't stop making these awesome videos man.

[@jsmarty1]

I think The Hurt Locker does a great job at questioning the war actually. Because while it doesn’t necessarily address the Iraq War individually, it does address war as a whole: war is a drug. And inherently, that’s a bad thing.

[@TheActualCathal]

It is ridiculous that no-one's made movie about Abu Ghraib.

[@brzk_]

jarhead is my favourite middle eastern war movie because it doesnt just show badass action and heros but really questions the involvement and shows the obsolete-ness

[@beakiddo9532]

Honestly, american sniper is one of the films that I hate the most

[@noco7243]

Agreed. They should've had a black trans woman portray Chris Kyle instead.

[@PhinPhan39]

For future reference Sgt. James from "The Hurt Locker" is an enlisted man. Just because he is highly trained doesn't mean he's not enlisted.

[@dkroll92]

that's true and, as a rule, enlisted guys have more hands-on training in their job than officers do. Officers lead or, more cynically, manage. Enlisted men and warrants have to actually know how to do the nuts-and-bolts parts of the job

[@AaronSmith1]

I would argue "Black Hawk Down" was the first Iraq War movie, even though it wasn't about the Iraq war.

[@peterbrickwood3204]

Black Hawk Down is a middle east war movie in the same way that Mash is a Viet Nam situation comedy.

[@firstnamelastname7113]

something that's really its own thing is a TV show called Generation Kill. It really places you in the centre of being a solider with excess violence, low-key psychopathy, PTSD, the repeating nature of violence and the morality of the Iraq War. This is all with very specific jargon and captured imagery of the war. I really can't recommend it enough

[@SaidinCheyneStokes]

1 film - 2 words - 4 main characters (confusingly) - Three Kings

[@rockyavg7212]

If it isn't propaganda, then it's not an Iraq war movie.

[@NowYouSeeIt]

Bingo

[@DrCatherwood]

This entire video is the perfect justification for why Generation Kill is the best piece of media about the Iraq War.

[@wordforger]

You know, I think part of what's caused this is the fact that the military lets Hollywood films borrow equipment and whatnot... but only for certain approved scripts. That means that any film that questions the mission or doesn't show the troops in the best light is going to have much less access to this equipment, and will thus have much less chance of getting made because the budget would be through the roof.

[@SaifAAhmed-nu2yh]

If anyone is interested in reading a story from the Iraqi prospective, my comic book, YASMEEN, deals with Iraq after the invasion and the war with ISIS.

[@Duragon910]

Thanks man I just bought the first episode 👍

[@SaifAAhmed-nu2yh]

@@Duragon910 Wow thanks! Hope you like it!

[@noco7243]

Do they have movies from the perspective of ISIS where you're from?

[@javidaderson]

I would recommend Generation Kill that addresses the issues of the Iraq war head-on without pulling any punches.

[@shoeme00]

I think you misrepresented what American Sniper’s message was. While you are correct that it did not ask difficult questions about the war in general, it showed the perspective of one man. The film was not trying to rationalize the war in a context of good and evil. It was Chris who was making this rationalization. That speaks more to how the soldiers perceive the war than you might initially assume. The war is ambiguous and it is uncertain whether the US is on the moral high ground. The individual soldiers who chose to go had their own reasons for joining and Chris saw it as an opportunity to help those already in danger. This may seem one dimensional, but it allows us to see that when there is no present strong moral obligation to war, but strong initial backing from the public (in this case the events of 9/11) each soldier has to internally develop a reason, motivation, or justification for their actions.

[@andrewwallace4821]

I would argue that the Iraq Wars Apocalypse now is probably the Miniseries Generation Kill. That definitely comments on the Iraqi perspective, covers an elite unit, questions the war itself, and focuses on individuals varied experience. Some love killing, there are moral quandaries and psychological issues tackled too.

[@alrightthen]

Man I love that line from jarhead! Getting lost on the way to college, almost happened to a feller once.

[@KingdomEnfilade]

0:23 guess I'm gonna have to listen to someone pronounce 'Iraq' that way for the next 12 minutes...

[@ironapega]

I got an ad for the armed forces before this video. Sick lads thanks

[@metroidsuperfan17]

If anyone else is interested in this topic, I highly recommend the podcast "Blowback". Episode 4.5 is on the films of this genre

[@gentlemandemon]

I wonder how "Triple Frontier" fits in this genre. It doesn't take place in the Middle East, but all the characters are special forces vets who served in the Middle East, and their motivations are largely driven by the trauma they endured during the war and after coming home.

[@dkroll92]

it's basically a remake of Treasure of the Sierra Madre, or even arguably John Steinbeck's The Pearl, set in present day South America and featuring GWOT vets.

[@gentlemandemon]

@@dkroll92 True, I guess it's more of a heist movie with a military coat of paint than a proper war movie. It's interesting that it still brings in the war movie trappings like the characters being ex-special forces. Also, I have a movie and book to add to my list, so thanks for that lol

[@marscoriad213]

I was surprised you didn't mention the Green Zone.

[@JohnSmith-dz2dc]

I would argue that American Sniper touches on the theme of “why we fight” but gives a different answer than what’s expected. Several times during the movie, Chris Kyle states that he wants to protect his fellow soldiers. This is exactly how soldiers respond in Iraq war documentaries: not for glory, not for freedom, but for the brothers standing next to them. If anything, I think American Sniper does this well in which soldiers enter the war with patriotic answers to this question but soon stopped questioning it all together and knew that the only thing that matters is protecting your fellow soldiers.

[@goodnightcharly5135]

Generation kill is pretty great

[@MrBassmann15]

As a United States soldier, I can confirm that Jarhead is the most accurate war film of all time.

[@LiveDieTrolling]

Lmfao... OKAY THERE.

[@pixelsandechos1225]

There’s actually a film that has the marks of a gulf war film in the opening but then does a really interesting job at making Americans the true villains. Iron man

[@valletas]

I disagree For me the message that iron man gets across is that the real villan is the war industry not the americans

[@solwindp78-1]

Frankly making this video without watching Generation Kill was a huge oversight. It's by far the most comprehensive and grounded piece of popular media to come out of the war in Iraq.

[@Thermalburn]

Its interesting that when I saw jarhead, I was about 17 years old and hated it. However, now its actually one of my favorite war movies. I'm sure a lot of that has to do with my experiences in Afghanistan and also being mature enough to appreciate the deeper underlying context

[@luuketaylor]

As someone finishing their studies in trauma-informed therapy/counseling, I would love to see more insight on these war films vs. actual reactions from those who have been in service. Film can be a powerful lens into reality for those who have not experienced what is shown on screen, but it can also be a powerful distorter.

[@shaiksulthan7027]

Another difference between the three types of war movies is the setting. WWII movies are set in urban environments. They're about playing hide and seek and in the process destroying the great cities of Europe. Vietnam war was about surviving extremely tropical weather, malaria, rain and other conditions brought up by a rain forest. A longer way of playing hide and seek, I guess. Iraq war was as you know set in the desert in semi developed cities and well I don't know what they were doing but they surely make for stunning visuals, those movies. They also have some great percussion playing in the background half of the time. They feel like varying landscape in a video game. I hope the next war won't break out in Scandinavia just for exploring a new location. If that doesn't happen you can always watch our Indian war movies fought in the great Himalayas against the same opponent every time.

[@rodrigolopezmaya5974]

Underrated video right here.

[@TravisD.Barrett]

I know it wasn’t that popular, nor was it from the perspective of a soldier, but Brad Pitts “War Machine” was one of the best Iraq war movies I’ve seen that really got me to think about we’re doing there and what our strategy is.

[@sasjme81]

The best Iraq War movie is "Taking Chance". Some may argue that it's not a war movie, but trust me, it is.

[@BathedInMilk]

There's a tweet from a few years ago when the news cared enough to put stories about Syria in rotation that said something like "In ten years Hollywood's going to make a movie called 'Aleppo' that will win all the Oscars and everyone will 'say never again'". Olivia Munn just got cast in a movie called 'Aleppo'.

[@skepticmonkey6923]

You know America's perception of the Iraq war is fucked when a man who kills a woman and a kid is considered a hero.

[@AaronSmith1]

Oddly enough, I'd say the most honest "Iraq War Movie" came out over 20 years ago: "Three Kings"

[@djschuby04]

I loved Three Kings! It introduced me to Plastic Bertrand. I've known every word to Stop Ou Encore since then, and I don't even speak French.

[@peterbrickwood3204]

For a WWII version watch Kelly's Heroes.

[@TheMerik26]

Thank you for this great video. I feel like a film that fits this exactly is the 2018 12 strong. It's in Afghanistan but fits this theory well imo.

[@sandrosoler4275]

I wish you had touched Courage Under Fire, which I do believe it's the first film about the First Gulf War

[@LukeQuineFilms]

Citations Needed podcast episodes on this topic is fascinating and a nice companion to this video.

[@ArcangelGamingEntertainment]

I think one of the best medias that capture this feeling is homeland. Its often about people wanting to do what they believe is right, before realising they are being used but people who are trying to do what is wrong. If America had of won the war in Vietnam, or the middle east, or any of the numerous open end conflicts that they have participated in you would see a different perspective.

[@pablo-ko2gb]

“Battle for Haditha” (2007) is a pretty good iraq war movie because it tells the truth and you get to see the perspectives of the US Marines and the Iraqi insurgents. Good acting too, it’s definitely worth checking out.

[@kody1053]

Shia Labeouf's role in Man Down touched primarily on the mental hardships veterans face once returning state-side. Great film, great acting.

[@HirachieOfSociety]

I know its not in Iraq, but Restrepo and Korengal are pretty much THE Afghanistan war documentaries to watch if you want the true picture of the grunt life in the Middle East.

[@MarkArandjus]

While it's touched upon sometimes, there aren't any films focusing on how many civilians were killed or how private companies conned the taxpayers by overcharging for all the services abroad. The 'oops, we messed up and killed some civilians' aspect that's in Vietnam films is missing. If you've listened to the speech from Lamb of God's 'Ashes of the Wake' song, you know what I mean. _"Not only will America go to your country and kill all your people. But they'll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad."_ -Frankie Boyle.

[@LauraSomeNumber]

WWII is often portrayed in US films as being won by the US.

[@goosegoose5361]

Name one film that does that

[@Shocksidian]

Great video! Learned a lot and actually a very interesting topic

[@NowYouSeeIt]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@mstly4lg]

Great video as always

[@thenewadventuresofhenry6998]

You're using scenes from Lone Survivor which is an AFGHAN War Movie. Iraq and Afghanistan are two VASTLY different countries.

[@robertoreyes09]

No joke i rewatched Jarhead in the theater three times when it came out. Great movie.