Is This Item RUINING the Support Role?

[@King_atk_darK]

It should be nerfed for ranged chaps to make it damage 2 instead of 3

[@BCawk]

Actually a really good idea!

[@LeViIain]

Or make it so you can only instantly kill 1 ward for each activation of the passive.

[@TheMezzil]

On a sidenote: If Umbral is paired with ingenious hunter it is extremely strong. On max stacks the cooldown drops from 40 to 27 seconds and the cooldown starts on activation of Blackout. Since Blackout lasts for 8 seconds. Umbral only has 19 seconds downtime between activations.

[@BCawk]

Damn actually OP as hell in that regard. RIP wards everywhere

[@kasus]

There might be a statistical confounder in your analysis of win rates for umbral first-buy in comparison to other first-buy mythics. Umbral Glaive is cheap and therefore often chosen (think Senna) if one is behind or at best even in the early game. When ahead, many supports would opt for another first-buy such as Eclipse. To properly compare first-buy win rates across items, you would IMO need to adjust for "game state" (winning, even, losing) at the time of buying the item. Nevertheless great video, thanks for the content :)

[@BCawk]

Great point! I will definitely look to see if there's ways in the future I can get access to those numbers from the Riot API! Appreciate your comment homie and thank you for the kind words as well

[@BBBrasil]

fun stat: games played against Teemo or not 🙂 Are there more buyers of UG in Teemo matches than in other matches? Run stats analysis differently ;-)

[@ersikaQT]

Wow! Love the topic! As a support main I frequently say to my friend that Umbral Glaive is the best item in the game (after they removed the ms buff from Staff of Flowing Water). Unlike the other vision denial items, it activates on its own, lasts for a whopping 8 seconds AND make you one shot wards so you can go kill more of them. Pair it with an oracle lens for moments when the passive is on cool down and JESUS! Playing enchanters and tanks myself, feels bad it's not really an option for me 😆

[@BCawk]

100% agree. My whole champion pool for supports can't build the item. Which feels super bad and there should more than likely be a similar counterpart for other types of supports OR just remove the blackout mechanic entirely. Glad you enjoyed the video!

[@gardist]

OP or not doesn't even matter imo. I don't think the game has a need for an item which gives the 3 or so viable AD support such an edge over every other support. The ability to 'accidentely' detect wards for 8 seconds while then be able to one-shot them is just so powerful. Especially since Senna and Pyke can clear wards incredibly safely with this item (range or easy escape) while champions like Rell take ages to even clear one or two wards and staying in danger for the entire time. Keep the stats and the low price of the item but please give it a different passive. Give it a built in oracle's lense but don't make it activate by itself and don't let it one-shot wards (or only allow the first ward to be one-shot).

[@user-ur5fz5ol8n]

It’s an item that has too many immeasurable compounding issues and it doubles down against playstyles and archetypes that already struggle in certain match ups. My opinion is, is that it should be in the same slot as other other support items such as relic shield, the sickle, etc. It’s a gross power imbalance that allows champions who already use stealth to use stealth even better. You shouldn’t get to double dip in vision or all champions should be able to double dip in vision equally. It’s unfair to say just because I’m a Vel Koz player that I get a ward “stick” and a sweeper while Pyke has a ward “stick” and two sweepers. ESPECIALLY when the champions buying them ALREADY have stealth mechanics. Why are we allowing compounding stealth mechanics? Dusk let’s pyke go invisible, his ability lets him go invisible, he has sweeper, and then a second sweeper. You get 4 stealth mechanics on a single Champion it may not be OP but it’s anything but balanced.

[@JadeOfficial]

Just make it so that if you have a support item you can't buy it. It really does way too much for the role no matter what they do for it as long as it still has its passive

[@abidurrahmanhaque56]

Warding is my strength, im a supp main in d1. I started playing tank maokai so my wards cant get swept by someone who has no idea where wards can be, but has this op item.

[@anlasma7942]

thoughts on ap maokai?

[@abidurrahmanhaque56]

@@anlasma7942 Is good, but in my opinion dead man rush is better, the highest elo mao mains in Korea go it and it's the more competitive soloq with most mao players (can't check Chinese server). However the mao mains in na and euw that has reached chall go ap. Mandate is a really good item, it comes down to playstyle ultimately.

[@seangray166]

The thing is these stats for all elo and in low elo people simply don't understand how important vision is. Simply put - silver pyke buying umbral as first item can't use it properly as duskblade's passive. And there are much more silver-gold players than plat+. p.s. umbral is broken on senna with her range

[@BCawk]

Hey Sean, sorry I didn't clarify in the video (I'll make sure to next video like this). But, these numbers are all from Plat elo or higher!

[@hggpi]

Ive seen people buying the red ward type(idk the name) And when they use it they just ignore the fuking wards

[@hggpi]

Yeah if there is no ward people blame the support. Even if they have 0 ward score and i have 50 at min 20

[@OSRS_KQs]

I'm a returning player from a 10 year hiatus. A recent match introduced me to the umbral glaive when a pyke was 1 shotting all my shrooms with a pink eye above his head. I just kept violently chucking more at him over the wall while he was slashing them away. We had an epic war, and I ended up winning.

[@akerman_]

it fit really good on ashe support

[@chaz11uk]

Should be a AP version atleast..

[@ysbrann3059]

and a tank version

[@BCawk]

I agree it's only fair honestly

[@KingNirada]

i don't know. the measuring is a little vague when you consider stuff like 3rd party add ons. opting to build it against supports who let's say "poro-fessor" finds that they ward a lot, at the very least an AP or tank version of the item would be nice. personally, i never really saw the need to use stuff like that but that might be something that sees it's win-rate rise.

[@briansmith3566]

I would love to see stats on what happens when the enemy has 2 of them on the map. I've had games with and against comps like senna/graves or pyke/graves where it really feels oppressive.

[@ErreGamer]

No need to watch the entire video to know that it's freaking broken! just like Zhonya's !

[@BCawk]

Zhonya's broken af. Next video idea maybe?

[@ErreGamer]

@@BCawk for sure, maybe that way we can make some noise to RITO

[@mightymouseftw4363]

I think the way they can nerf it is make its passive only work when its off cd. If it's on cd then it should take 3 shots to kill wards revealed by sweeper and control wards. Or make it so it doesn't affect control wards so you cant just 2 shot them.

[@wuj0-themanthemyththelegen856]

Hum, I think wr for items factors a lot of survivor bias. Like collector is massively overrated and is build mostly when you are snowballing hard. So I think it is op and stronger than other items.

[@24milleniums]

I like your methods and logic. Would be interesting to see more analyses from you.

[@BCawk]

Thanks homie! Will definitely look at doing this with items in the future and refine the process

[@trevorbelmont5808]

Very intresting vid. I now relize why I feel off my vison game when I play vs this item (never really thougt why I felt that way before). I think that they should keep the stats but nerf the CD so It dosen't feel so bad to play against as support. It truly feels toxic to the game when you put like you did, with there being 9 anti ward items on the enemy team and only a handfull of ward iteams on you'r team

[@evenightwalker2411]

I'd have to disagree. You are telling us win rates with buying Glave 1st on champions like pyke, senna, graves and compare winrate with other non mythic items. My question is where have you seen this champions buying 1st item deaths dance like you show it in example. You have data from like 50 games compared to Glave with 10k games probably even more. Its just not comparable, if you are doing video using data analyz get the right data for it.

[@vipneo3879]

How about the usage of Umbral Glaive in Proplay / higher mmr (master +)

[@MrToastyPepsi]

Incredible vid. Looking forward to more like these!

[@BCawk]

Glad you enjoyed!

[@louisonsad772]

I play pyke and some games i can get 4 vision per minute which is crazy for my elo, maybe umbrel glaive isn't that good if i knew how to purchase a pink ward, but unfortunately ill only buy 2 or 3 and maybe my adc will buy 1 for the entire game so i would have to say this item is strong atleast for me

[@ironhldeosrs5658]

Just because an item is annoying doesn't make it overpowered. For instance, the heal from Goredrinker active can be annoying and potentially overpowered when combined with specific champions, but otherwise it can be overshadowed by other mythics depending on the champion and overall circumstances. Umbral Glaive rush can be annoying because of the vision clear but can also put you at a significant disadvantage if you are behind and can't utilize the passive or damage stats effectively. If the opposing support isn't properly warding then you'll have nothing to clear and its wasted gold that could be used on something that could push an advantage or snowball a lane. If you're losing lane then it's an even bigger disadvantage because you'll only use the passive when your leaves lane and they'll end up re-warding. That's just my thoughts anyway

[@ironhldeosrs5658]

To follow up, the damage steroid on Goredrinker for missing health was overpowered which is why they removed it. But the item itself is decently balanced. League is a game of playing into the situation, and if you can't do that you can easily throw a lane with an incorrect buy.

[@KungKokkos]

If the opposite support dont ward, then you should win the game anyway

[@TheHolzing]

Umbrail is broken af. That ranged Champs can oneshot clear a ward is ridiculous. The thing is, that a lot of champ purchase it first and it is absolute standard in masters and up. If you want to compare winrate, you always need to use masters and above, every other elo does not even know ho to play around vision in the first place. If ever a umbrail user is ahead in the game, he takes over the match for no other reason than the complete and utter mapcontrol this stupitly broken shit gives him. With controlward, umbrail and red trinket there is almost no cd on antivison. This gets even worse if you consider that a champ like senna, graves etc can clear 10 wards in 10 sec bc of that stupd passive without even getting into danger themselfs. I do understand why melees can oneshot wards with that item, but i cannot comprehend why ranged are allowed to do it.

[@blackmagick77]

Idk i like this on support. Get it woth Pyke or better yet Senna. Complete vision control over the lane and river. I like this "Is it OP" format! There has to be more to check out like this

[@BCawk]

I'm curious to what other items people think are OP! I'd be happy to investigate more like this

[@blackmagick77]

@@BCawk A lot of people say shieldbow.

[@Lionhart1991]

It's not 2300, when you kill a ward you get money and exp, it's even more broken if you count this Also, it's super op with zombie wards, one thing is to destroy every vision on the map but another.... to put also your own... In a game you are gonna for sure get min. 300 gold from the item if it's the first item

[@5Poisons]

Senna: jokes on you, I do both support and use umbral glaive. :D Edit: noticed you mentioned Senna by the end.

[@ysbrann3059]

Does people still play panth supp after durability patch ? i ised to play it a lot but after durability patch i felt that my impact in early fame droped so much

[@BCawk]

Honestly they do but it is not great after durability patch. Hovering around 47% WR

[@ysbrann3059]

@@BCawk wheb i first played it after the patch i was shocked to see that my full combo on a soraka dealt less than 30% of her health , never played it again since. He already was weak in late game but now even early game he is not as good as other support

[@what-xg7kx]

I think you're a bit wrong about statistics. Since Umbral is usually your first slot, it doesn't tell if you're winning or losing, just like you said before. And because of its' cost, it is bought much earlier than other items, and while it makes you powerspike earlier, it is not as big of a powerspike if you bought a mythic as your first item. If you go to leagueofitems, you can see that when you buy umbral as a second or third item, it is actually on par with other lethality items. It also feels a unfair when you're playing as an ap support who doesn't have a luxury to one shot enemies' wards (sorry if it was hard to read, english is not my first language and I am not used to type long messages like this)

[@what-xg7kx]

and also watching your wards disappear is really heartbreaking. you raised that boy and then one bad guy walks by and deletes it ;(

[@BCawk]

True, I'm still seeing lower or equal winrate on Leagueofitems with first purchase on Umbral which I think would still make me say that it isn't OP for that statistical category. But, you have some great points and going forward on item videos I will definitely use this website that I was COMPLETELY unaware of. Thank you for letting me know and your comment!

[@what-xg7kx]

@@BCawk winrate on first purchase may be lower because it's making your mythic delayed, and umbral is usually a go-to item if you need something quick to work with

[@vae9805]

honestly a little bit frustrated with the people saying that umbral glaive is op when it's the only AD support item in the game. why remove one of the only things that gives them an edge over other supports? enchantresses perform insanely well with low gold and exp because of their cheap but influential items. meanwhile, ad supports NEED levels and income to have as much of an impact. the cost of their items compared to enchantress items are crazy to the point that nerfing umbral could make them not even viable to begin with.

[@devyp2theizo]

Most ad supports already have rewards built into their kits, from Pyke's gold sharing to Senna's souls buffing her over time. Other supports don't get such rewards.

[@vae9805]

@@devyp2theizo all champions have "rewards" built in their kits. what you mentioned is literally just their kits lol. i don't get why you think senna buffing HERSELF is a supportive "reward" but yuumi turning any team mate into a carry isn't a reward? lulu shield, on hit, atk speed, move speed, and health to team mates isn't a reward? soraka with a literal 5 man heal that applies support item effects to everyone isn't a reward? literally what do AD supports have in their kit that "other supports" don't?

[@devyp2theizo]

@@vae9805 income. ad supports have bonus income that lets them scale faster with gold exp or stats outside of normally leveling up abilities. more gold, more stats scaling, and then they get an item that lets them have superior vision control on top of it, which in turn also gives gold and exp.

[@vae9805]

@@devyp2theizo this is just objectively wrong. ad supports are balanced around the fact that they have passive income. it doesn't let them "scale faster" because ad items are inherently more expensive than support items. look at senna. in 20 minutes, she will have around 80-100 souls. assuming she has 100, thats 800 gold. her typical first 4 items, other than boots and support item, will be umbral (2300), eclipse (3100), rfc (2500), guinsoo/manamune/lord doms (2600/2900/3000). this ranges from 10500 to 10900 total. meanwhile, any other enchantress can build a mythic and 3 items for literally 9400. even with her 800 gold, enchantresses items are still cheaper? all while providing more than she does. she can't "scale faster" than them because that's the nature of a scaling champ. she has more expensive items, meaning slower power spikes. while she is in the process of building her first item, an enchantress counterpart will have already been using their mythic. her power lies in scaling OVER TIME, not quickly.

[@nash9483]

should nerf it, that it deals 2 dmg instead of 3

[@fjwd]

You say it is "theoretically op" because mid/late game a team may have 3 sweepers and 1 umbral user which invalidates support warding, but you are not considering what a supports ward is meant to accomplish. The jobs of wards are to provide snippets of info, not provide permanent vision of an area. These snippets of info are almost always enough to deduce the enemies play. Your ward reveals enemy Kha'Zix flank and then dies to his umbral, does it matter that it died? His play is now invalidated, and hes forced to reposition. My point is that constant vision is just luxury most of the time. Lets say its 30 mins into the game, if you are half decent at the game you will know roughly where the enemy is at all times regardless of fog. Both teams are contesting Baron, its very obvious where everyone is. Baron dance turns into a control of mid wave > retake Baron river > pressure Baron start/look for turn etc. You throw down a few wards for conformation, but its just that: conformation not necessity. If you ward a flank for an enemy assassin and it reveals that assassin before dying to his umbral, why does it matter that it died? It doesn't at all. To TLDR about the "theoretical op" part because I am ranting a bit: saying that umbral makes late game support wards useless is purely false. Warding importance falls off massively as the game goes to the point where vision is almost always luxury. Compare that to early game where wards spotting junglers can literally win the entire game. I watched the video so I know you overall say its not overpowered but still dislike the item. I don't really think its op, but you could probably make a better argument against the items balance if you considered some other parts of the item and its interactions with champions instead of fixating on the vision alone. For example, a VERY underappreciated aspect of the item is its interaction with mythic passives, ESPECIALLY after the lethality mythic passive buff. A Kha'Zix with Prowlers + Umbral is litterally getting 50% of Umbral's lethality value from Prowlers passive (+5 lethality) as well as 5 movement speed which is deceptively valuable (especially considering that virtually all assassins now run treasure hunter vs relentless hunter which used to be an assasin jg staple, as well as mobis way back when). Also, instead of focusing on how late game an enemy team having up to 3 sweepers + Umbral makes support wards useless, you could focus on how oppressive the vision denial is EARLY game. I talked about this in my first paragraph but mid/late game when support items are complete there is no lack of vision on the map + vision is significantly less important. However, if an assassin completes umbral at like 8 minutes it is still very much the early game and laner's are still relegated to their starting lanes. Killing a laners yellow trinket or control ward with umbral forces them to play safe or risk dying to jungle ganks or support roams. Jungle pathing early is so so so important so vision control is essential, a gank during laning phase can dictate that lane matchup for the rest of the game vs you dying after laning phase where matchups have already snowballed and been cemented.

[@kurokosumehmeti3523]

I think its more op in diamond+ ranks

[@rihardsluu]

Maybe it should be disabled for supports;)

[@Teddy-se8qb]

not op. but definitely one of the best support items.

[@SkylaDash]

yes

[@z0mbiej0e34]

Algorithm

[@Meowpatine]

First

[@BCawk]

First reply!