Is This The Truth On Coin Grading Companies? Are They Schemes?

[@CoinHELPu]

My coin shop website portsmouthcoinshop.com/

[@Coingeek1]

Another great video! I tend to buy slabbed coins for the key dates or very high grade coins only, (more for authenticity than grade), but this really lays out the complaints I've heard about the grading companies

[@Robbin235]

Maybe they drink too much at the grading companies. When I drink too much I also have a hard time grading the ladies.

[@tinychickz7461]

🤦🍻

[@tinychickz7461]

😅

[@PapaKryptoss]

Bwahaha

[@jeffw1267]

All this can be avoided by educating oneself, and this can be done with books. If you buy a substandard coin, then learn from the experience. I bought all kinds of crap when I was young and didn't know any better.

[@RobFindsTreasure]

As touched on in the video, I think the biggest contributor to discrepancies is human error. I’m also not 100% sure about the exact process behind the scenes - whether it’s 3 or 4 sets of eyes or only 1 set in reality, but agree that the process should be moved to artificial intelligence (if and when that’s possible). This could minimize the mistakes made by tired eyes, untrained graders, and perhaps even the possible “automated” systems for processes we think are happening like the 80/20 “rule” on ASE’s, etc. Yes, while it’s good that we have Grading services, it’s time to improve on how that service is carried out to get consistency across the board.

[@jeromenewton2720]

I like the way you perceive this topic. Imagine a grader is out sick or misses half a day for a dentist appointment and the grading company’s supervisors are all too busy to fill in the spot. The graders that are there are put under pressure to get “the job done.” Protocols go out the window, short cuts are taken and hasty inaccurate grades are given and not properly reviewed. But also consider this. In days past half the fun of coin collecting was haggling over the grade which affects the price. If that element of the hobby is removed does the hobby become so sterile it becomes uninteresting to its adherents. Without the hobbyists the dealers will become simply collectors themselves and in the end nothing changes. The hobby is still dominated by the big fish. I’m not expressing this very well. I need to mull it over for awhile, but we have to beware of what we wish for because we might just get it!

[@CoinHELPu]

I agree

[@johnilardi]

I have two MS 64 Morgan CC both 1883 and one is remarkably better than the other, both graded by the same company

[@1jessetaylor]

The only reason I like grading companies is that I don't trust half the type of people on eBay at their word. Even buying slab coins beware on eBay I have had tamped slabbed coins sent to me that I was able to identify and return. My solution is to stick with dealers that treat you right and Daniel is one I trust alot>

[@tinychickz7461]

✨YES! .. DANIEL IS ONE OF THE NICE GUYS!!...🤠 Buy coins from HIM!!...💁

[@williamcochran6852]

Me to.I found it to be just like you have stated .

[@slicksilver9441]

I've had similar to the same situation. I bought a ms 70 coin and the images shown, showed a great looking coin. After I paid for the coin and recieved the coin, the dealer changed the pics and the coin I recieved was damaged

[@kennethcaine3402]

Your right, I don't like to buy on eBay in fact I never have. Normally you can go to a dealer that has an add in coin world and get a quality product, and usually most of them support returns, if they don't I don't do business with them. There's too much bait and switch on ebay. Thanks for your reply.

[@EternallyThankful-os6pz]

Well the 80/20 rule "rumor" is proven in my book. I've seen BOTH PCGS and NGC coins graded in 70 holders that I can see a defect on WITH MY NAKED EYE !!!! There is NO WAY that these could get past 3 "graders" who are SUPPOSEDLY using magnification and carefully analyzing the coin...LAZY and FRAUDULENT in my book. Bring in A.I. to eliminate this problem and bring consistency and honesty back into the grading system.

[@GS-kh3kb]

At one time I supervised about 3 dozen hourly paid inspectors at a manufacturing company. These people were conscientious and put in a solid 8-10 hours a day. However, every day there were many products that failed in the assembly department or in the field. I estimate that our department only "caught" about 70% of defects, even though we worked hard at trying to weed them out. I think this number of 70% accuracy also applies to grading. I believe that it is economically impossible to find 100% of defects or 100% grading accuracy. I sincerely doubt that there are 3-4 graders looking at each submission, it would substantially increase the company payroll. Even if there were this many graders looking at a coin, I guarantee there would still be errors. The only way to reduce this error rate is to implement significant process controls like automation.

[@CoinHELPu]

I agree. AI is my answer.

[@PomskyAriel]

It’s our own responsibility to grade what we buy. I remind myself of the 1934s peace dollar graded MS 65 that sold for $13200 in 2018. Then regraded to MS 66. Then new buyer had it regraded MS 66 plus. Now the owner is asking $125000. So my point is if we educate ourselves we can have an advantage even today. I learned by buying 9 1928 peace dollars slabbed AU58 - MS 65. After showing them to multiple dealers at shops & shows I realized which ones were superior. After that lesson I quickly sold 6 of them at a loss and gained an immense amount of knowledge.

[@tylonnplatinumthe3rd659]

With higher value and very high end coins I think they really take their time and grade them properly. As the value and scarcity goes down I think their interest in properly grading goes down. It’s hard to blame them in a way. Must really suck to go through and grade 500 silver eagles in a row

[@Heyyyyyyy2424]

I have often thought about these companies with their grading standards and why certain businesses get so many top grades where if I submit the same coin that looks the same or better than theirs and get a 65-66

[@dougm.370]

I have been saying this for a long time and there is so much to unpack on this. PCGS Just like all of them got to big and now its not a hobby its a business and that's the biggest problem with this. Any Job that becomes a business the quality and the consistency are in jeopardy. I never used to buy certified coins but I did go to a dealer who does wrights to the Redbook and he graded every single coin since 1967 that has come to him and its why he has done so well and he's consistent that I learn from him how to grade coins and even he finds error and mistakes the PRO GRADERS don't match grade or let slip through. I'm hearing now people think the grades you get matters also on submission and what you pay for said submission . I hearing if you submit a coins to say PCGS and the coins value is over they value of what you submitted they wont bump it up to what it is and give you the best grade in its declarers value window. Only reason I buy Certified coin is because I moved away from him and he's not on the web selling and I have to be sure its real because I'm now retired and buying High dollar coins I cannot take a risk with coin over 1,000 or even 10,000 then find out they are fakes. So we do need them but its what I consider a necessary evil in this business and YES it is a business but when you get bigger its like more money more problems and you have to hope you don't get to big to fail. No wonder why they love selling and dealing with Mike Mesack because he knows like a trained magician mixing Facts with fiction and nobody sees what he's doing. CAC is like a Doctor given a second option and if it comes to that then the first grader wasn't sure and now here we are sticker LOL. This is why Coin Help U is important and knows knowledge is power in anything.

[@williamcochran6852]

Isn't that the truth ,you have said it all.most people don't even see it.it was nice to hear. your words.

[@ronmueller1164]

I am just a beginning collector within the last few years, but I prefer buying raw coins mainly because I can buy them cheaper for the most part. As long as I like the look and condition is what matters most- not someone's opinion "branded" by way of holder. Also for the cost of grading I feel that the money could instead be used to obtain more coins. I've always been told "buy the coin and not the holder".

[@superiordeftrex4196]

Thank you for speaking the truth. Too many people have become slaves to the grading companies.

[@SonOfASilverStacker]

What if the grading companies take population into consideration, can't have too many 69's now, can we?

[@RealAntek]

They probably do

[@MrRanman91]

I think the slabs have really helped when purchasing coins online or anywhere where you can't see them in person. Other than that, when I'm at a show and I have no problem looking at the coins myself, with or without the slab. I just look at the coin and the asking price and decide if it's worth it to me. I also use an app to show me the various grading levels for the variety of coins, so when I'm at a show or a shop, I can just pull that out and compare the coins myself. However, when online, you can't do that other than the pictures the person trying to sell the coin to you. They can hide things with lighting or the photos, or it might not even be the coin they're actually trying to sell you. With a slab, it gives you a little piece of mind. I can talk about something that just happened to me recently (although it was a comic, it still applies, because comics can be graded as well). I bought a nice comic, and based on the pictures shown, the book was in solid shape and was a decent price. When I actually got the book, someone had written their name on the first page of the comic. I went back, and there were no pictures of this anywhere in the description, as well as not being in the description at all. The person apologized and said they didn't even look through the book, and even if that was true (which it might be...and eventually I settled and got some money back, and kept the book), a graded book would have had that in the description or would've had a lower grade. Coins are the same way. But like I said, in person.....it's completely different.

[@deannalea1515]

we should formulate a sting operation to test the grading companys consistency!

[@Stackinginvestments1]

The Coingeek has a couple of good videos on re-submissions. The grades are all over the place.

[@80sFreak100]

Great topic! Whenever I bring this subject up in a group on Facebook, most people want to condemn my suggestions on how to improve the accuracy of grading. Even though I make valid points, they want to trash me and my ideas.

[@mintmarkrarities349]

Hi Daniel, this was one of your best videos, thanks for taking the time to put this out.

[@ronservice1708]

I am from the old coin picker I am 71 so I never though that this was good for the hobby I have seen coins that never match the number so I think we should go back to the old way. People can tell the a good coin from a bad one

[@josepchwill1304]

Thanks for another informative video. I finally got my power back from after hurricane Laura, I am hoping internet isn't far behind, I have been using the libraries wifi to watch videos.

[@samsmobilepressurewashing8422]

I would like to mention that grading does preserve a coin but it should be more affordable. The disparity in grading should probably be handled with either more qualified graders to lessen the work load or program an AI system like folks are saying. I read in comments once that you have to hope your coin is not graded on a monday or Friday. No one wants to work on Monday and every is looking at the door on Friday.

[@georgematthews2877]

Evening Daniel! 🍷 Though I am not happy with PCGS, I doubt that the grading companies are frauds! But I do know from working at two different manufacturing companies that paid based on the number of widgets produced during a shift, quality decreases, while error increases!!!

[@yvettesilver2522]

👀 This was an EYE OPENER...for me at least....Thanks! PS..I hope some grader does come forward and explains more on this too.

[@melvinthompson4323]

I think when they started grading bouillon silver and gold coins is when it became a scam .. 🤥

[@irishshintoshi8213]

Great information thank you. Kind of scary though for a new collector like me. A lot to think about. Wise information is appreciated. Thanks again and keep up the great videos

[@Numismaniac_Canada]

I sit with other collectors and dealers at my Numismatic Society meetings to confirm my assessment of the grades of my coins. I’ve never owned a coin worthy of being graded by top tier grading companies.

[@CoinsInTheWild]

totally agree bout sitting 8 hours at desk, to those that watch my channel I sit for hours and hours grading 800-900 coins in the last 4-5 months by myself and I graded them, set them aside and look at them again couple days later, I usually pull 4 or 5 coins out of 30 or so and say, what was I thinking? I was totally off.... that's now a new step in my process now.

[@victorluc66]

My thoughts are this, I think the big grading companies provide a great service in terms of authenticating coins; making sure they are not counterfeit. As an example, I don’t like to buy an 1893S Morgan dollar raw. Even with die markers I feel it’s risky. But beyond that I see little value in the grading companies. I’ve had far too many coins come back as cleaned when multiple dealers will agree with me they’re not cleaned. And the grading is far too inconsistent.

[@joedipietro3443]

A very good subject that needs to be addressed more . Not everyone has the knowledge on how to grade a coin . On the graders I would really like to know the credentials on grading. I trust some of the second tier graders than some of the top tier graders. Like you say we're all human and we can all make a mistake , but when you pay the money there getting there should be no mistake on the grade . Do yourself a favor try to grade a coin to the best of your ability and then have someone you trust to check your thought on the grade . With this being said you should buy the coin according to your own eye appeal.

[@davedeaver7860]

Great topic! I felt burned as well when having coins graded that in my opinion should have done far better than they did! I hope a discussion like this really takes off and becomes some kind of change! Thanks Dan.

[@COINTABLEChrisTisdale]

Much truth spoken ! GRADING IS A CRAP SHOOT ! NO WAY ARE THEY HAVING 3 OR 4 GRADERS PER COIN

[@jdsharp4033]

I like that there’s a system for grading coins, but I think that slabbed coins have been overproduced to the point now that comparing two like coins with the same grade shows the discrepancies of the quality of grading much easier today.

[@silvadelshaladin]

With all the coins that they have taken pictures of, you would think they would have a reference group for every non-oddball coin. When someone submits a ms 64 1883 CC morgan dollar, they should have a whole raft of reference pictures for that specific date. Like an ophthalmologist they should be able to go slide by slide and compare -- is it better than the ms 64 on file, or the ms 64+ on file, or the ms 65 on file... It could even have the die states... Then they could be consistent in the grading especially over time. I also think at the very least strike should have its own category like they would do on an ancient coin. A lot of people wouldn't want a very weakly struck coin even if it makes the grade. Some don't care as much.

[@kennethcaine3402]

Thanks for sharing this important information. I have watched your videos where you compare same grade coins and there would be obvious differences between them. The fact that the graders get paid for the number of coins they grade makes me suspicious, the more you grade the bigger your check will be whatever the grade.

[@leebrewer1190]

Surprised to see my posts up Daniel! Thanks for giving this a larger audience. I hope people will see those posts on your forum and note at the end that, that like you, I just want to see people educate themselves. I also say that someone who enjoys slabs for what they are - all the more power to them! As you said here, we need to IMPROVE what we have! I also am of the opinion a phone app. could be made and programmed for grading b/c, at least with the iPhone, the infra red facial ID scanner takes 30 thousand data points, analyzes them in microseconds, and can even tell the same people when wearing glasses, beard, etc.! Hard to believe that this tech could not accurately scan a coin just as well - the rest is programming. Someone got a million they do not know what to do with to devleop it? 😊

[@CoinHELPu]

I appreciate your posts!!

[@leebrewer1190]

@@CoinHELPu Honored to be a part of the forum and glad I can contribute something. The integrity you show in your videos, plus your drive to educate is what drew me to the forum and I am hoping it continues to grow.

[@Wess-S]

A app like that would shake the market. Wouldn't surprise me if some of these companies have already developed them and just kept quiet..... waiting for the day that someone like you pops up with it, and then boom. "The all new pcgs coin grading app with all the bells and whistles" log in, scan your coin, submit it for verification, we send it back slabbed within a week.

[@soiledbear2051]

I've been in the hobby for 40+ years....99% of my collection has been eye viewed myself and graded accordingly...I wouldn't consider a graded coin any better/worse then a coin I've graded myself, whether I'm buying or selling...Grading is subjective, the market dictates the price and the buyer/seller have to agree on it after negotiating a grade/value...If they do buy/sell then both parties are happy....Grading companies are only for those that like to brag, imo, about their "collection" and have forgotten the true meaning of the hobby....Like grading, my opinion is subjective....Love the vids, keep up the good work and the discussions.

[@kamuzu]

I wholeheartedly agree Soiledbear, you explained it perfectly. We are very similar in 40+ years collecting, but 100% of my collection is free to breathe and can be inspected honestly (not from behind a wall of plastic).

[@soiledbear2051]

@@kamuzu ....Thanks, I knew there had to be other like minded peeps out there....My 1% slabbed are from auctions held by our local Coin & Currency Club....

[@jamesfacciolli8061]

Another sad thing is about grading is (at least PSA for Sports Cards) if you are a large submitter you tend to get "better" grades.

[@sob1994]

I just watched a video of 1835 Capped Bust go from PCGS ms62 cracked out to NGC au58 back to PCGS Unc Details Questionable Color and then back to NGC Unc Details Cleaned 😂😂😂 Talk about a crap shoot!

[@frostcb2]

Ben the coin geek!

[@madmattdigs9518]

Yeah, you need a thesaurus... it’s baffling

[@RealLifeFinance]

That cost money for that experiment

[@RobertoCienfuegos]

That is a good idea that cost money. Record the sending and receiving the coin and while recording so the proof is that there is no damage while opening it and resending to another company to see how big difference result may get.

[@Wess-S]

Jesus, that sounds like a nightmare. I thought grading comics was a pain in the ass, especially with the older keys.

[@chrissahar2014]

The problem is the American grading system. If you shop for World coins at Numista's retail site, you see they grade by ranges. Au50 - 53, Au55 - 58. MS 60 - 65, MS 66 - 70. They are broader than the American system and fairer because they acknowledge grading is inexact. I would only have a coin graded by NCG and PCGS, if it is a true numismatic rarity and you require verification of its authenticity in addition to a grade to sell it. For the majority of collectors, most of their coins do NOT require a grade/slab from NCG and PCGS. For authentication, that is a field in greater need of people and affordable services. A sign of a reputable and sound coin dealer is one who can often detect counterfeits. As for standards for grading there is an agency that provides them the American Numismatic Association and again the European grading system offers a better model.

[@petepal55]

How about if you could purchase an addendum listing why a 65 coin made it past 64 to 65, and why it didn't make it to 66? It will take the graders' time so you'll have to pay, of course. Putting myself in a new graders shoes I can quickly see that over time I will get used to what each type of coin looks like when it looks good enough for a certain grade, but right now I'm wingin' it!

[@RealLifeFinance]

Just started Video but I'd say they are quite subjective. You've said it many times....for an AU58 or MS60-62. Who knows if they circulated or not? And if they did does from Mint bag to collectors pocket at bank count or not?

[@CoinHELPu]

That Scott was lying. I always refund if someone ask to return a coin. I also don't sell cleaned coins are problem free.

[@gerrybeauchamp4120]

They know exactly what they are doing! They are managing the grades in order to capitalize on the top grades for the highest profit! They have so many ways to manage it all, without answering to anyone! As long as they keep those top grades open, people will keep sending their coins in thinking and dreaming of getting one! And even if your coin deserves that top grade, why do you think you are not going to get it? Because they don’t have to give it to you and they make so much more money on people just like you!

[@murph9813]

In some respects coin grading could be looked at as a necessary evil. But I do believe it is necessary. You are right, it is in need of refinement of grading procedures. I believe you are correct in your view of coin grading. There does need to be a uniformity in the grading system.

[@frostcb2]

Follow up question, why doesn’t PCGS and NGC keep track of details graded coins in the population?

[@CoinHELPu]

You would have to ask them.

[@CoinHELPu]

Ask them I don't know

[@TruthLivesNow]

Daniel, another aspect to consider is the difference of pricing from one Grading company to another for grading a coin. PGCS and NGC are very high grading prices compared to ANACS and ICG. It is amazing to me when I see on Ebay a PGCS Roosevelt Dime Graded, and the Seller on Ebay sells the MS 69 Dimes for under $10. I think that aspect is really mind blowing? Why pay so much money to grade a coin much lower than the grading price? Grading Morgans, Peace, ASE, Trade Dollars, etc., is different, enough Silver and Value in the coin to get the money back...sometimes, yet when the premium is so high on the ASE, better to buy a Graded when that is the situation.

[@jeromenewton2720]

Counterfeit holders are being made by the hundreds of thousands in China. Beware of such - bargains- on eBay.

[@TruthLivesNow]

Jerome Newton This may be true, however, when one sees a PGCS newer Silver Roosevelt MS 69, or Proof, with a verified the number, selling for $7.00, well, even the Commie Forgers are not making enough on the coin to counterfeit it.

[@monte4150]

Wow! What a great video. It's good to bring this in a spot light. I've read the 3 person Gradeing system and how if 1 grader thinks differently it goes back to the beginning so that the Co. Is 100% right. Well when am I getting my coin? Lol

[@PapaKryptoss]

I just got a 1884 CC with MS64 and when looking really close it looks like the grader dropped cookie crumbs in it. I'm like WTH!

[@TruthLivesNow]

That’s funny 😄

[@Mr_No_BuD_E]

And I think this hobby won't be as big as it is now than before without the internet so its a good thing and bad thing for me its a good thing because I won't be in this hobby without watching your videos on coin collecting so I'm thankful for it. Coin Grading i think the mint should have their own grading company.

[@bgs9man]

Every coin enthusiast needs to watch this video. Eye opening information that gets one thinking and brings up a lot of questions. Good stuff Daniel!!!

[@triumph928]

I had what I consider too be a strange experience with ANACS. I will use ANACS for coins that I plan on keeping more so for protection of the coin and not really concerned with their assigned grade. I use a Microscope on any coin I submit to check for any minute scratches or wear. Long story short. I submitted a Bicentennial Eisenhower Dollar, 40% silver, as a filler to meet the minimum amount for the $10 per coin deal they were running. Checked it over under the Microscope and found no scratches or wear before sending it in with all the others. When they came back, the Eisenhower had two very noticeable scratches on the obverse. A huge gouge on the reverse and the lettering on the reverse was badly chipped and broken out. Graded MS67. This is not the coin I sent in. I would not submit a coin that was that badly damaged. No designation of 40% silver either. How would a coin that badly damaged grade MS67? My point is, how do we know the coin we submitted is the coin that is returned? I never contacted ANACS and challenged them on my suspicions for the simple fact they would deny it and it would be a waste of time.

[@CoinHELPu]

Join my forum and post an image

[@johnwachter6369]

Like it or not, a valuable coin needs to be in a slab to get a respectable value. And more often or not, it'll have to be PCGS. Reading all the major auction results...they're in PCGS...and to a much lesser extent NGC. ANACS....forget about it. I rarely submit coins, but I do buy slabs if it's anything of value or if I'm not buying in person.

[@TheBig50pCollection]

Hello from England Uk. Here we have had a recent problem of brand new coins toning before we get them home from the mint! Grading isn't as popular here...i like to display my coins in the packaging they came in....rather than a homogeneous piece of plastic. Its all too uniform and boring. Its great to open the box and read the info that comes with the coin rather than a boring description on the slab. I also dont like all the slab options ...and now china is knocking out fake coins and slabs. I have a few slabbed coins...take a look at my video...99% of my coins are on proper display. This has been one of my favourite videos you put out Mark...very fair..and raises the question.."is a graded coin a coin you can trust ?"... Im not convinced yet..

[@bmh67wa]

I've never paid to get a coin graded since I don't sell my coins but I have bought a few that were definitely questionable. If I ever was to sell a coin the condition would be whatever was settled on between the buyer and myself, not some grading company where for all we know the person grading the coin had their favorite goldfish die that day and he's not in a good mood when it's time for him to grade my coin.

[@oldschoolrr6077]

I agree with you that Coin Grading Cos. have been more beneficial than harmful to the hobby. But really, no matter how you look at it, grading is and always will be subjective. I'm sure even Q. David Bowers and James Ruddy didn't agree on the grading of every coin that went through their hands, back in the day. That is why it is so important for every collector to learn how to grade the Series they are collecting.

[@jeromenewton2720]

Hey Daniel👋. Another really good thought provoking video. I have been researching coin grading, but so far have only scratched the surface of the many layers involved. Your concept of using AI is intriguing . I have many thoughts on that subject but a public forum is not the place for a discussion. In a week or two I will send you an email.

[@silvadelshaladin]

Another thing that would be interesting to know is the total amount of grader's time a coin had during the process. It would be sad if a coin only got 20 seconds worth of grader time when they are getting $40 per coin.

[@RealLifeFinance]

Im guessing 1-2 minutes is all it gets

[@oneofmany1087]

ya some one needs to be a coin cop.. DAN would be a good one

[@nwcs2]

If you’ve seen hundreds of thousands or even millions of coins as a professional grader, you don’t need to spend hours evaluating a common coin.

[@silvadelshaladin]

@@nwcs2 Yes, but if you are spending significantly under a minute, more mistakes happen, plus it makes the margins get bizarre. Plus it can end up like in a hypnotic state where you are just doing coin after coin and you couldn't even answer what you graded -- sort of how you can get while driving, but it is not preferable.

[@bill4572]

I heard this podcast a few years back they had an ex employee a whistle blower he said when the grading companies started getting big they would run these ads looking for professional graders and putting them up in hotel rooms because the company did not have enough room and these people with not much of a interview would grade coins all day that's why a lot of your old slabs they would not be the right grade it was a podcast very good one if I can find it i put a link up

[@CoinHELPu]

Cool

[@harrybond1485]

Those are all very insightful, and legitimate questions Daniel.I am of the belief that at this point in time, we really do not have many workable answers to the question you raised To me, nearly every solution or partial solution raises further questions and possible problems.For myself, I of course have seen 3rd party grades I did not agree with.Those are of course bad for the coins owner, but a coin buyer can simply pass up that particular coin.So many scenarios and angles to these concerns.Interesting.Thankyou Daniel.Good discussion.

[@lincolncentralcoins1452]

Production Production with possible Hangovers 😂 Thanks for Sharing my friend

[@frankchase9297]

Everything you said is good food for thought. I couple that with the numerical grades of some of the coins I’ve seen. In summary, I guess the only comment I can make is “I scratch my head a lot.”

[@spida817express]

Daniel, Weather we like it or not grading companies are partners in every single coin worth more than face value. The market has been turned into one with every valuable coin being “faked “ by someone, somewhere.This leads to people ( collectors) wanting the coins they buy “ authenticated” by a reputable outside and respected source.These grading companies provide some level of comfort to collectors and dealers that what they are buying and selling.This on the surface sounds like a good thing, but if we look closer we see that it is a well oiled scamming machine set up to panic collectors into their web if lies. Think about this, we have come to a level of stupidity in the coin collecting hobby that many ( lots) of so called intelligent people are spending real hard earned money( not monopoly money) to get coins graded that are worth just above pocket change value. They have been brainwashed by grading companies and most dealers that slabbed coins is the only way to guarantee that what you have is genuine. I know quite a few collectors who only collect graded coins and 95+ % of their coins aren’t worth more than $ 5-50 on the high end. They get slabbed coins with populations in the millions ( god help them)and insist that they will one day be worth “ big bucks”.The sad thing is most of these people have been collecting for decades with almost zero graded coins, that is until the propaganda of graded coins are better and safer than what you or i think.They have taken generations of coin collectors and lovers and turned them into slabbing junkies. These companies as you and any collector with an IQ over 80 can( if were honest) have almost no knowledge and coin grading abilities. I will bet any amount of money that if i got 5 respected and honest dealers that i know they would hands down be more consistent and accurate on grading coins than the top 3 grading company “ expert” graders.” The reality today is that with the lack of trust by collectors and dealers caused by the rise of the internet, that we have been thrown into the biggest scam and danger to our hobby.... GRADING COMPANIES. They are the pimps in our hobby and sadly we have become their whores( forgive my words). They have made even the most knowledgeable and experienced collectors feel like uneducated idiots needing them to tell us what we have, what it is worth and that we “ cannot” survive without them steering us in the right direction....All this for a fee a big fee. They have found a way to profit off of all of us, they are our silent but expensive partners in ALL of our collections....Best scam in the history of scamming, wish i could of thought of it. Coin collecting as a “ Hobby” is extinct.Today we have coin collectors, coin hoarders, coin speculators...But the hobby is dead, dead as they come. There is no more love or trust in our hobby, collectors feel that the majority of dealers are thief’s or dishonest, dealers think that most collectors are just wasting their time for asking questions and all through this the pimps ( grading companies ) are in the background collecting from both sides as collectors and dealers are fu**ing each other and not even knowing they are being played for fools by the pimps in the background. I know Daniel this sounds horrible, but ask yourself this......If you were not a dealer and did your homework on this so called hobby, would you buy coins for an investment ( graded or not) knowing the lack of consistency from company to company? Would you really feel that someone had your back? Would you think that buying coins from people that you have zero idea who they are or where they are is a “ smart” investment? Today , unfortunately collectors know more about the coins than 90% of the internet sellers.Collectors who do their homework still have to work their way through staged pics on the internet when buying coins( slabbed or not) by the growing number of scammers online.This is not a good sign for collectors. Bottom line, in a few years the coin collecting core group of honest and true collectors will be dying of old age and all that will be left is the uneducated ones who were buying deals ( in their minds) who are stuck with coins not worth the slabs they are in, they will be putting the coins up for sale on the same websites they bought them from ( when they got scammed)and seeing if they could unload them to another sucker ( i mean collector). Daniel, i hope by then you have made all the money you ever wanted and more and reality hit you in the head making you understand that the “coin hobby” died long before we left it. The only reason coin collecting has not seen the same type of dead the “Stamp Collecting” hobby is that coins( many of them) are produced with “Precious metals”.Otherwise , this hobby would be laying next to stamps in the graveyard of hobbies. PS... I have collected coins and stamps from the late 60s.I have bought and sold some very iconic and fantastic coins snd stamps in my collecting life. I have almost zero trust in this “ hobby” if thats what you want to call it, but there is no more joy of collecting anymore.I read the threads and forums and what I don’t find is collectors exited about a fantastic coin that they bought ( not valuable) just for the love of the coin. I hear comments from other collectors telling a guy who bought a coin for $25-50 to “ hey I would get that graded if I were you, it would make it worth more and more appealing “.... That to me signals to me that the end is near and inevitable. My advise to anyone wanting to collect coins, is never by a graded coin, never buy a coin from anyone who does not have a brick and mortar as a main business( having a website as well is fine) and most importantly buy a coin because you love the coin. Expect not to make money if you ever resell, just buy it because you love coins. That way you will never be disappointed or fall into the rabbit hole of someone telling YOU if you should “ love” a coin or not. GRADING COMPANIES will be the straw that broke coin collectings back. The only ones left will be the Rich elite groups buying the rarest of the rare ( like high end art). The average collector will have left(sold out ) long before.........,,, Time will prove me correct, but honestly I wish that it will prove me wrong, but I won’t hold my breath. Great video Daniel...

[@jumemowery9434]

Isn't the term "fake grading company " redundant?

[@ZXC_ZXC1]

I learned that neither PCGS nor NGC will guarantee the grade of a coin despite their web site claims. They will refuse to accept the fact they made a mistake. Maybe the coin has graffiti or the surface of the coin doesn't look right. Perhaps the coin should be in a details holder. None of this mistakes will be admitted so don't waste your time and money resubmitting them for grading mistakes. They will only pay you if the coin is not authentic but they graded it as authentic. If the coin is over graded by 3 grades PCGS won't admit their mistake. This comes from one of the founders of PCGS.

[@leebrewer1190]

I do not know what NGC guarantee says, but read PCGSs carfully in their website. The guarantee is specifically that they will guarantee they graded it according to the way they say they grade it (Which I do not believe always happens - as shown in the video - but cannot be proven anyway!). Its like doubletalk, but their marketers make it sound like its a an iron clad selling point..

[@pauld8790]

I feel it's very subjective and I seen some crazy coins get under graded second and third tries

[@stephenvangelder3893]

Same thing with comics and cards. I do not collect graded anything. If I want to flip it I'll do it. The plastic sells.

[@glennmlerch1239]

So sad. The same thing happened to baseball card grading. A true collector can judge product quality. At 72, I remind myself that there are people who buy bottled water. I can’t get over that.

[@pauld8790]

I would guess silver dollars from the 17 hundreds probably 90% of them have been cleaned I had a handful of them not cleaned PCGS very fine extra fine sold them and they got resubmitted and came back cleaned

[@isaiah58bc]

I had to ask a seller on Ebay why they were selling MS graded Franklin slabs that contained Proof coins. They said that the grading company made this mistake. Personally, I just want to slowly put a nice album together of raw MS level Franklins from trusted resources.

[@paulbegansky5650]

I am not a grader. I do believe bulk buyer/sellers are influencing the grading companies. I do see major issues with inconsistent grading. That being said this is my ideal grading scenario. Grader 1 grades and documents the finding. Grader 2 grades and documents independently. Grader 3, supervisor looks at 1 and 2. If same. Quality check and estanlishes the grade. If different. Supervisor independently grades and then check 1 and 2 for agreement, if still no grade established, 4th independent grader is used. The coin is slabbed or return if necessary. But a clear description of the grade is sent to customer. For example, why damaged. Why vleaned what the observations that were agreed. Be professional. Your being paid an awful alot of money.

[@wrongway6100]

I have always thought the two main coin grading co's control the population of certain years and the grades they give out that way they would purposely keep certain coins grade pop low.

[@scooterb8470]

I left your CoinHelp U group, because getting a post approved there is impossible. Even great posts for learning. My last post (I deleted, as was NEVER approved) was about EXACTLY this. Go look at PCGS's listed variety examples for the 1944D FS 101. They show 3 in MS66 RD. Ultimately, it is the mm placement that dictates whether the coin gets the designation or not. The higher mm does. The lower does not. That is "supposedly" the DDO-007, as listed by Variety Vista. 2 of the PCGS examples are correct. 1 is clearly, and obviously not like the others, when it comes to mm position. I am also operating under the assumption that pictures are taken precisely the same, each & every time, as to avoid such clear discrepancies like this, that some may attribute to "picture angle," etc. Smart people already know what's going on with these grading companies, and have for a very long time.

[@CoinHELPu]

I rarely mess in the FB anymore. I spend more time in my own website help community. You should join and post there anyway coinauctionshelp.com/forum/index.php

[@ericdawson845]

I have often seen 70s in the SAE and late mint coin products that didn't make sense. My area of collection is British milled, and have written for the Krause catalogs for about 15 years so have some expertise in the area - many times the coins that I have seen in this series have been under or overgraded.... Another thing I don not like is that people trading in coins are involved in grading them (e.g. David H.)

[@nickkraemer2034]

I’ve just about lost faith in the grading companies. Too many times I see a lower grade coin look way better than the higher grade example. I don’t get it

[@esurfrider7687]

Hey Daniel, interesting perspective, actually I just sent in some comics for grading for the first time, I may get some coins graded at some point as well. But I just want to bring something to your attention, not topic related, but I’ve noticed that your audio isn’t syncing with your video correctly, there seems to be a delay, because your lips are not matching up with what you’re saying, not a huge problem but it is a little distracting. Anyway, have a great day! 🤙🏼

[@dalestoner2928]

A standard should be set like finger prints are done by police labs. Have to have a point system to get the grades. If a coin gets 10 points based on a national standard it would get MS70.

[@ibrahimbukar7132]

Your thinking about this is sound and logical, hoped other coin collectors and dealers would see reason in it and act

[@phillipthiebjord]

Thanks for another informative video Daniel. Very intriguing points you bring up.

[@tchotchkegirl8880]

You should start the group to make the standard guide lines on the entire system. I to new the world of coins but I would be more than willing to be part of the group.

[@ssamjohn]

Hi Daniel, thanks much for your feedback on the pictures which i shared to you, as you said, those coins are counterfeits and either not silver, thanks once again for saving my money.

[@CoinHELPu]

You're welcome

[@ronschneider1870]

I don't think that they use 3-4 graders per coin! I sent in a steel cent, reprocessed in the early 1990s to NGC to be graded! I saw a faint 2 under the 3 is why I sent it in! Well it came back just as a regular 1943 steel cent! I called the man who graded it and it was just one guy who graded it!

[@kamuzu]

In 44 years of collecting I have never bought a graded coin or banknote........and never will. When going to a show I always make it known, and spend serious money when they have notes or coins that are not entombed in plastic. Never got on the scamwagon........I mean bandwagon.

[@leebrewer1190]

Personally I don't care if its in a slab or not b/c slabs and labels mean absolutely nothing to me except someone spent some extra money. I won't pay more for a slabbed coin, but if I like a coin and it happens to be in a slab, I will buy it...if the price is right. It will come out of the slab if I want it to fill a hole in an album.

[@kamuzu]

@@leebrewer1190 if someone spent extra money to entomb, then you also will be spending extra for their folly. I guess I am more of a zealot in this matter and will try every way I can in not supporting such contrived companies.

[@pauld8790]

I picked up slabbed silver eagles for the the price of raw silver eagles and also kind of like them in this slabs I got 40 of them for $800 all ms69 just before silver took off that $19 I felt I couldn't go wrong

[@kamuzu]

@@pauld8790 ha ha "all MS69" if you believe that then you are the exact person grading companies live for. I agree you made a good deal as far as bullion price goes, but surely you do not believe that those things in the plastic are all 69? Or better yet .....are you sure they are all real silver? Open one of the 40 to confirm and let us know.

[@pauld8790]

would guarantee they're all real but are they ms69 to probably not they also came into blue plastic containers LOL

[@nickkunich3912]

I believe you have a very good video looks at barber quarters on ebay graded 64 one I could not see liberty has to be bad photography thank you Heep up good work

[@edheida8825]

Maybe with such of influx of computer generated optics they can superimpose coins over the generated picture and the grade of the coin is then finalized thru computer analysis. Not relying on a subjective veiw.

[@typeviic1]

The TPGC inconsistencies by PCGS, NGC, and ANACS are ridiculous. They ALL have the same problem. But wait, market politics requires me to only submit to NGC and PCGS and forget about all of that................

[@rickywheeler6417]

I'm old school a pretty shiny well struck penny in a holder of my choice is the way to go. Great video thanks Daniel

[@Wylie5.0]

SMH, I Hope i haven't spent the extra $$ to just find out the grade was already (Fixed). But for the most part i stand by The grade given. Thanks for the share Daniel. Always great Information!

[@bradcollins1879]

I'm in complete agreement with you Daniel an at the same time just like finishes on coins an so forth there shouldn't be any disagreement on if a coin is satin finish proof or whatever the grader should know these things or they shouldn't be grading coins an I believe a computerized system is the only way to go to grade coins. It makes perfect sense to me an would be more fair to the new collectors in the hobby that have there doubts off the rip. Thanks for the video I enjoyed it an believe in your opinion.

[@wandlbaker]

IMHO, there is the technology out there now where it could be taken out of human subjective issues buy using laser and photo imaging software to give the initial grade THEN give it to a team to finalize the grade. This would prevent the loss of income for the graders and give the coin a fair chance at the correct grade. Just a thought.

[@tinychickz7461]

Daniel!..🙋 that was a good video!... thank you for that!.. ✨ I'm new to all this.. and this topic leaves me with questions..🤔 you answered a few!..👍 thank you!.. 🐸

[@MikeSmith-yo9ch]

Just my opinion but i think the grading inconsistency might be intentional . The grading Companies know if they put a lower Grade on a coin than the coin really is someone that is good at grading coins will notice it . If it's a key date or better date coin they will likely crack the coin out and resubmit it to try to get the higher grade the coin should have got the first time . Which makes more money for the grading companies when they get to grade the same coin 2 or 3 times . All ways buy the coin and not the slab unless you agree with the grade on the slab . For me i only agree with the grades on the slabs about 70% of the time and that is a shame cause they should get the grades right at least 99% of the time . I give the grading Companies a C - on the accuracy of their grading . I hope someday some i can say i give the grading companies 100% A+ but until then i give them a C - or 70% accuracy . God Bless and i hope everyone has a Great Day .

[@adamjam9541]

Hello friends good conversation

[@tinychickz7461]

HELLO...🙋🐸

[@bryansauls4695]

I think you covered it well!

[@DiamondMinerIvins]

Love your content, Tomsgolddirt sent me!

[@CoinHELPu]

Thanks

[@combomelt]

Daniel, what webcam do you use? The closeups of coins that you do seem very sharp in focus. However, your audio seems out of synch on the last several videos of yours i've watched. Mic in camera? I'm looking for a new webcam and love the closeup capabilities yours has. Thank you

[@CoinHELPu]

Logitech

[@jaynareynolds3684]

You didn't mention one of the most valuable aspects of the grading companies, and that's their authentication process. Just knowing a coin is genuine is vitally important to most astute collectors, and they're willing to pay grading companies for that assurance.

[@CoinHELPu]

This was about grading not authenticating

[@jaynareynolds3684]

@@CoinHELPu nevertheless, authentication is probably the most important aspect of the grading service that IMO should've been mentioned, otherwise the viewer might've been left with a wholly negative impression of the grading companies. After all, if a coin isn't real, the grade is meaningless. PCGSs photograde feature is another thing that could've been mentioned to help balance your concerns of the grading companies. Your comment about AI is probably the way things will go sometime in the future, and I agree with you on that. I thoroughly enjoy your educational and thought-provoking vids. Thank you.

[@CoinHELPu]

I am not responsible for how people take my videos, this was about grading and that is all.

[@ZXC_ZXC1]

I think with the bulk submissions only one grader looks at the coins. It's not practical for 3 graders to look at silver eagles or common date MS63-65 Morgan dollars. I've also heard that if a dealer submits 500 silver eagles to PCGS or NGC and then resubmits the ones that are MS69 he'll get back lots of new MS70's. Daniel, do you think that PCGS is a stricter grader of higher value older coins than NGC? That's the perception in the marketplace. I once had a 1795 $1 FH NGC XF40 that I paid $7100 crossed over to PCGS and it sold for $8000.

[@CoinHELPu]

I don't have an answer to your question, it would just be guesses.

[@ZXC_ZXC1]

@@CoinHELPu Also do have an opinion on how much extra money it's worth paying for a CAC coin of value since I can't see the coins in person at Heritage or StacksBowers? I've heard up to 20% as a collector but you might not want to pay anything extra because you have a lot of experience as a dealer. It surprised me once to see a 1943 steel cent PCGS MS67 CAC sell for a premium at Heritage since it's a $125 coin. I think it sold for $180.

[@steelhorses2004]

@@ZXC_ZXC1 CAC has their own retail pricing guide like PCGS and NGC does

[@ZXC_ZXC1]

@@steelhorses2004 I know about CAC's retail pricing guide. In fact I told the editors at Grey Sheet they made a mistake on the 1803 $10 AU53 Large Obv Stars. They listed the rarer 13 Star Rev at $24,200 and raised it to $30,200 when I asked why the rarer variety BD-6 with only maybe 10 examples exist is worth less than 14 star reverse or BD-5.

[@coinmandanm9380]

I don't do the CDC type companies. Next it'll be a grade to grade them and so on. So it's who's grading the grader. Also, an MS 69 70 on a 2015 or so coin dosen't meat anything to me. I'm more concerned about a good grade on a hundred year old coin, that's where values come to play. Thanks for all the great information.

[@CoinHELPu]

It still adds value to a coin so I am in even if I don't agree.

[@decoy2636]

At least you're not censoring content as seems to be common these days. Giant corporations have to cut peoples tongue out just for presenting both sides of a discussion when opinions differ. Just because we all have our truth doesn't mean looking from the vantage point of opposing arguements or views from which we can learn to step up on our gainful behaviours like good vibrations to be better people from knowledge gained. I'm liking it and have lost my give a fuck.