Is Tiny OP? 🐜 One D&D Druid UA Wild Shape Discussion

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[@archersfriend5900]

Tiny is super op for spying. Best available stealth. As a dm I have no issues with it.

[@CaptnJack]

its okay, but not op at all, as there are many other ways, even without magic to spy. Its also not the best stealth. Im not sure what you are thinking, big picture here, but its not all that more than any other aspect of the game. Is it useful, sure, can it be handy, of course. is it OP, no way. As an experienced GM and player for a long time, handling characters and creatures of all sizes is very easy.

[@yuvalgabay1023]

@@CaptnJack its pretty op add stealth sorry to tell you that. Nobody will suspect a spider or a fly. You can literally scout the intair dungeon whit out any problems

[@tomraineofmagigor3499]

@@yuvalgabay1023 meanwhile find familiar exists

[@SenseiSuplex]

In my own personal games, I have homebrew races in P.A. for all my players that allow to be Tiny or even large. I have not once seen it abused with any of the 100s of players that played lol. I can understand large races not really being a thing because they'd break module's dungeons, but tiny in my personal experience has meant next to nothing of a difference. So i kinda don't understand this change for those super rare minute occasions like they mentioned with spider/flame sphere. In fact, I think it's just clever and awesome.

[@FlutesLoot]

I also think they're clever and awesome! I have heard from other DMs that they hate having to reveal an entire dungeon or situation without needing Stealth (sorry Rogues). For example, Treantmonk's latest review for the Druid in this UA had him specifically mention this frustration. I wouldn't call it an abuse of the system either (many would call it that) because it's literally what the system enables (I have a pet peeve about people blaming players for what the system gives them, haha). And that's fun that you allow a greater range of sizes! Thanks for stopping by, Sensei!

[@wwade7226]

@@FlutesLoot I have to think this issue is a rare, extreme case. And I've never seen it done in play in the past 3 years or so. Even if a spider goes unnoticed, a DM can plant sensors or other environmental challenges or puzzles (Like color coded challenges) to counteract. Maybe the player gets away with scouting a couple rooms and hallways at a time, but an experienced DM will learn how to counteract the tactic.

[@mirageowl]

also in reality while things like burrow underground and concentrate, become tiny and concentrate maybe effective on paper, it doesn't feel good to effectively be skipping your Action every turn

[@CaptnJack]

@@FlutesLoot okay sure, a tiny creature, perhaps a spider can crawk through a dungeon and get the lay of the land, can pass by traps, etc, but they are alone, they cant get the party through, they cant relate what they see until they return. Also a spider can easily fall prey to any mob in said dungeon or mishap. So while it can be useful (as it should) its not more so than other means. I think the size limits, the movement limits just break the 'reality' of magic in a game setting. Also, what can happen when a player character goes off on their own? Usually not good, no matter the form or size.

[@tomraineofmagigor3499]

That the spider reach the end and see a ritual in process. Either they need to risk the boss on their own or won't get back to the others in time

[@hedwig3927]

The differences between being a tiny creature and casting Arcane Eye are that (1) you can be spotted without truesight and (2) if you do get spotted and an enemy squishes you, you are suddenly in a WHOLE LOT of trouble and all by yourself! I do not think it should be nerfed - especially if the basis is because "it's basically Arcane Eye but at 1st level". In fact, I think it should be allowed even longer than a combat wild shape. Maybe without the ability to change back and forth at will to/from a tiny creature.

[@peterrasmussen4428]

The problem is, spying is actually what wildshape was best for (unless you are a moon druid). And currently the templates for turning into an animal are terrible, so it is not like they have gotten something else instead. Basically they have managed to make all the druid features about wild shape, with wild shape not really being worth it until level 8 when you can fly.

[@FlutesLoot]

Level 5 can be useful with the climb speed. Sometimes climbing is as good as flight inside structures for staying out of reach.

[@peterrasmussen4428]

@@FlutesLoot But you are an animal, you can't do anything except keep concentration on your spell. 90 % of the time you can achieve the same thing by dashing away from the fight.

[@FlutesLoot]

@@peterrasmussen4428 I must have misunderstood your point about flight

[@peterrasmussen4428]

@@FlutesLoot The flying is good for transporting the party over large distances (on your back or in bags of holding). As well as a great scouting tool outside, even if you can't be tiny (you can easily fly outside the range of your enemies). To be fair, I haven't played many dungeon crawls, so perhaps you can bypass some traps or puzzles with the climbing, and get some value there.

[@dungeonsanddronesrpgroup]

Look at the Druid from 3.5/PF1e. I believe the size limitation was there before.

[@demnix6210]

Yeah but arcane eye your safe & sound, going in as a tiny creature generally with less than 10hp, you are putting yourself into a risky situation. They amount of people get found out in hilarious circumstances. Guard: " ehhhhh a spider! Slap!!! *bammmph* druid: " um,..... helllllllllo" Besides at level 3 casters can get invisible. 🤷

[@FlutesLoot]

Poor Rogues :P

[@demnix6210]

@@FlutesLoot lucky owl familiars. 😉

[@catkook543]

my main issue with the new druid UA, is that the wildshape lost it's soul. The mechanics dont re-enforce the flavor of being able to transform into all those different creatures anymore so you just turn into a blob of something and just say this blob is something

[@FlutesLoot]

It is blobby, I agree

[@wwade7226]

This! At the end of the day with the new templates, you'll just be a worse version than the real beast. I pick Giant Eagles because I want to fly 80, not 40. I pick spiders because I want to walk on ceilings, not just climb walls.

[@timjensen4320]

The problem is that Tiny as a size has arguably the biggest change in size. There's a big difference between a 1cm spider and an average housecat. One is significantly harder to notice, isn't out of place in most environments, and can squeeze under doors. But because bugs and mice are tiny druids can't wildshape into half the common animals anymore

[@FlutesLoot]

You can be a wolf-sized house cat, though! :P haha

[@Evelyn-rb1zj]

Tiny doesn't even have a minimum size it could be anything from a flea to a short kobold which definitely doesn't feel right

[@CaptnJack]

So many reasons to restrict things, hich ruins the fun of using an ability, rather than looking at the larger problem that these things try only to treat the symptoms...

[@FlutesLoot]

What is the larger problem?

[@Evelyn-rb1zj]

I think the huge problem is that "tiny" encompasses anything from the size of a flea to the size a

[@FlutesLoot]

True, it's a vast array of sizes categorized as "tiny"

[@ThisCrits]

DRUIIIIIIIIIIIIID!!! Heres your half point!

[@FlutesLoot]

Thank you, Lee!

[@mythmakroxymore1670]

Especially as a jumping spider…

[@Zr0din]

@0:45 so the Tiny Spider concentrating on a spell GLOWS BRIGHTLY because of the no SUBTLE SPELL Thing!!! You have to Yell and Invoke to cast the spell, and then you have to concentrate and you still have to do stuff- like move hands and have glowing circles around your hands and stuff. That would make a GLOWING SPIDER!!!! YOU WILL GET CAUGHT!!! Also, ALL BEASTS know that you are not a BEAST and will investigate you at minimum. Have you ever seen a cat beat around a spider? The Spider has NO CHANCE!

[@FlutesLoot]

It would be nice if WotC baked in a rule for what someone looks like when they concentrate on a spell.

[@Zr0din]

@Flutes Loot frankly, that guy was lucky that I didn't have a Lazer beam between the spider and the flaming sphere. But he was seen and kicked out of his wild shape.

[@jwell4638]

Tiny form just needs to be 1/long rest, but you can extend it with addtl uses of wildshape. If you drop it for any purpose, you're limited to small and up with any other uses. This makes it just druid arcane eye instead of nigh undetectable spell source inside the walls or tiny treasury vacuum as it is in 5e.

[@FlutesLoot]

Are you saying you like keeping the tiny size at level 11 but you'd change it a bit?

[@jwell4638]

@@FlutesLoot I'd have it earlier, somewhere in 1-5, normal wild shape duration but with the 1/day restriction. I'd never change that restriction, but the level 13 new feature (which I like) would bring back online the shenanigans you probably don't want as much early on.

[@FlutesLoot]

@@jwell4638 right on

[@3pharaohstowers]

ATOM ANT I Can heat metal and hide in your armor as you burn and i use gift of chromatic red dragon to be fire immune. Add elemental adept to remove resistance to fire and graves cleric gives vulnerability or cancels out immunity. get careful metamagic if your not allowed gift of chromatic dragon, so your immune to your spells.

[@FlutesLoot]

lol sounds like fun to me. Tiny has its benefits. I caution that Grave Cleric's Path to the Grave Channel Divinity only works for an attack's damage, but maybe DMs allow it for non-attack damage (I've been lenient on it when I've DMd for Grave Cleric players, such as for Blight).

[@FlutesLoot]

@@3pharaohstowers right, but Heat Metal isn't an attack. The game differentiates between attacks vs. other effects. If an attack roll isn't involved (rolling to hit), it's not an attack.

[@FlutesLoot]

@@3pharaohstowers ah got it; I know who Atom Ant is though I can't recall if I've ever seen one of his cartoons :P

[@CaptnJack]

that sounds like a lot of set up just to get there. Several options, one, I see a spider climb into my armor, I slap it or pound my armor, Time to try and make those concentration checks as a spider with very low hp. Maybe # two, since my armor is heating up, I use the quick release straps and it drops off, then I stomp on the magic spider on the ground that was there. #3 can you even fit in someones armor? Sure you can be tiny, but tiny is awefully large when trying to fit 'inside' someones metal armor...Tiny is still up to 2.5' x 2.5', your not getting into a regular persons armor. You might be thinking Diminuative? that 'might' be small enough, and even that is up to 1'...so....reevaluate?