Is Trainer Difficulty Ruining Your Zwift Races?

[@RoadtoA]

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[@lukassiegl3286]

Its been a while since my last comment on KZbin. But i need to thank you for all these amazing Videos. Keep up this great Work! Greetings from Bavaria!

[@RoadtoA]

Thank you very much, I really appreciate to be the recipient of one of your rare comments! :)

[@SteakandChains]

Bravo on tackling such a controversial topic in only 5 minutes! Great work!

[@RoadtoA]

Thank you very much, mate, that means a lot!

[@guyhunter4181]

Keep doing what you do I learn so much from watching you race and train

[@RoadtoA]

@@guyhunter4181 thank you very much mate, that means a lot!

[@SticksAandstonesBozo]

Got my trainer setup yesterday. I’m a learn it all details type guy. This stuff is driving me insane 😂. So thanks for this.

[@RoadtoA]

Glad to help!

[@J_AE_DK]

That's pretty accurate AJ. I started zwifting 4 months ago, trainer difficulty at 50% standard. 1 month ago, I bumped it up to 75%. 50% does not feel easier, and 75% does not feel harder, just more fiddling with the gears. Great video and explanation!

[@RoadtoA]

Thank you!

[@roadcyclist1]

Men's elite races REQUIRE 100% trainer difficulty. They force it upon you for a reason.

[@RoadtoA]

Yup, it's the only way they can ensure a 100% level playing field - but I wouldn't say an opposite to "level playing field" is "cheating". Lowering TD brings advantages on some courses, but then again, everyone has an access to this setting. For elite races where they are racing for prize money, they IMO do not want to run a risk that some of the riders anre not aware of this settings which they could retroactively challenge as "unfair competition".

[@benjapolcycling]

I definitely think trainer difficulty make differences in actual situations. I like 50% the most. At 100% practically i need to shift gear a lot more and that create downtime and lack of output as i also don't want to destroy my 15 years old retired bike. FYI? Zwift academy had smart trainer only event and 100% trainer difficulty mandatory lock. So it's definitely possible to enforce this if they really want to.

[@RoadtoA]

@@benjapolcycling Elite races have this enforcement too, and I think that's correct as it levels out the playing field to same conditions. I like 50% too, lower than that and it is quite difficult to react to sudden effort spikes (and also it is too boring then for me).

[@VBL-]

I put it on like 30% because I don't want to switch gears on every small climb

[@RoadtoA]

@@VBL- smart!

[@RideWithGerben]

Yep! This is the way. Keeping it in the outer ring!

[@RoadtoA]

@@RideWithGerben Gerben, what TD do you use?

[@RideWithGerben]

@ 30%

[@RoadtoA]

@ A lot of people here suggesting this. I'm gonna give it a shot, thanks!

[@jisber1]

If I am spinning out on sprints (not enough gears), do I need to adjust my trainer difficulty? If so, higher or lower ?

[@RoadtoA]

@@jisber1 if you are spinning on descents despite being in your hardest gear, then yes, you should decrease the TD. If you are spinning out on flats, decreasing TD won't help you unfortunately.

[@jisber1]

@ thx! I’m spinning out on flats. Not sure what the fix would be?

[@RoadtoA]

@ are you on a mountain bike? If you are spinning out on road bike I am jealous of your strength. Do you have you trainer correctly paired as controllable trainer? If everything is working as it should, then the only solution is a bigger chainring or swapping to virtual shifting (for that you need a supported trainer and Zwift Click/Zwift Play).

[@jisber1]

@@RoadtoA appreciate the feedback I’m on an older 10 speed madone on a Wahoo Kickr I hit 700-750 watts and then have no more resistance that I need to generate more power. Ah well… keep up the great videos

[@RoadtoA]

@ some Kickrs are compatible with virtual shifting - take a look of yours does, it might help you: zwiftinsider.com/virtual-shifting-support-status/

[@rolfkjetilgulbrandsen6073]

Finally a good explanation of this topic. Thanks😊 What trainer difficulty are you using?

[@RoadtoA]

@@rolfkjetilgulbrandsen6073 thank you very much! I currently use 50% as it gives me a good balance of smoothness and feedback but I'll experiment with this setting (probably won't go to zero because that sounds boring though).

[@hardclaws]

One point to consider by lowering the trainer difficulty and allowing yourself to spin at the same power rather than grind does actually have more impact than people tend to see. If you are at 100% TD and now need to get out of the saddle to grind up a climb at 300 watts the muscles you need to engage are going to be different to lowering the TD to say 50% and still keep at 300watts but do it seated at a higher cadence. So the out of seat grind even though its the same watts is more demanding on your muscles and more muscle groups. This will probably lead to quicker fatigue and an inability to maintain the effort for as long. If we consider its not trainer difficulty and its more extending the gearing range like those with virtual shifting or kickr bikes have where they have more freedom to set their gear ratio then its a different story because you could more look at it from the point of view you actually have a much larger gear ratio on your bike without the need to physically put a much larger ratio cassette and chain rings on so it evens out. Setting it to 0% though that's cheating to me. There needs to be some form of resistance being applied when you hit climbs

[@RoadtoA]

I would say that setting it down to 0% is especially boring, rather than cheating. If you are going to ride up with the group, you will need to hold the power of the group to stay with them (thus, the resistance is virtually being applied by the group) and if you are alone, well, then it doesn't matter really. But I would be super bored if everything felt the same.

[@foreveryoung8097]

You didn't mention that even though watts are watts, what really changes is the torque. Racing at 100% trainer difficulty on a course with hills is super tough. Two of my friends argued that trainer difficulty didn't matter, so we all rode Down Town Titans at 100%. Afterwards, they realized that it was actually a lot easier to ride at a 50% or lower trainer difficulty setting

[@RoadtoA]

@@foreveryoung8097 I mean, I feel like I kind of did (I said that running lower TD on hilly course helps you keeping nore consistent cadence and power output), but I probably should have said it this explicitly. Good point! Changind TD on rolling course definitely matters.

[@kswissu72]

Changing TD is like having an 11-50, 20 speed cassette. I have mine set at 75% 🙃

[@tgc281]

You are right it’s about efficiency. Higher speed lower torque is more efficient in my opinion. People always talk about power but forget about efficiency having a nice smooth cadence is much more efficient than having to stand on the pedals. So I would say that racing should be set to some standard which is difficult cause not everyone has the same gearing.

[@foreveryoung8097]

@@tgc281 I totally agree that the percentage should be set at least to 75%, but honestly, 100% would be even better. It would be awesome if it could be just like in real life, where people race with different cassette ratios. Many serious racers have both a crit and a road race bike.

[@tgc281]

@ heck yea, but I’m also sympathetic to people that say it’s a game and not real life so it’s a odd problem.

[@jeffreyanthony7348]

What are your thoughts on the different cassette, I race with a eight speed cassette, while others probably have eleven or twelve speed cassette. Would that also play a difference in the race. Just asking

[@RoadtoA]

Definitely makes a difference. With this amount of cogs you are either limited on bottom end, top end, or neither, but then the jumps between individual cogs are likely too large to control cadence well. In your case, I would either go for virtual shifting (if your trainer is compatible) or lower the trainer difficulty so you can cover all possible scenarios with your gearing options - both steep climbing and downhill sprinting. Or both. :-)

[@jeffreyanthony7348]

@RoadtoA thank you.

[@PatrickLino]

Great video!

[@RoadtoA]

Thank you very much!

[@DittersGustav]

My trainer at 100% difficulty is harder than the same slope on real life (tested with a power meter, and same rider+bike weight). That`s specialy true on lower incline climbs, like 2-5%

[@lucasschindhelm5964]

I have recently changed my difficulty to 100 %, otherwise I am running out of gears on the downhills. It's an optimisation problem regarding the gearing. With my Campagnolo Ekar 13 I haven't used half of the gears because they were too easy. Now I utilize the available gearing much more efficiently.

[@RoadtoA]

@@lucasschindhelm5964 Uhh...this might be actually placebo Lucas. When you decrease the training difficulty, the uphills feels easier (and you don't need as easy gearing) but downhills actually gets more difficult (at 50% TD 10% downhill acts as 5% downhill). Thus, increasing TD tp 100% would actually make your gearing problem worse if you were running out of gears.

[@joshvillen]

@@RoadtoA Exactly what i was gonna say. I actually have mine on zero....to not get dropped on the downhills hahaha

[@Matt-vn9cb]

If your trainer supports it get virtual shifting, makes shifting smoother but means you can train on a higher difficulty whist having a better experience

[@JeyDeee89]

The thing is, with my 130W FTP, i have to go over 200W at a 8%+ Grade in the 1st Gear + constant Shifting with every little up and down. I still drive at 100%, because i want to be strong enough for my outdoor rides. My take is: It is still "cheating" because you can go very easy and smooth at your desired Watts. No time lost by shifting. No legs burned by too much torque needed. A smoother output is usually better handled by the body.

[@RoadtoA]

I get your point, but then you can also buy larger cassette. The only scenario where it is (imo not so much a cheating, but an optimalization - as everyone can legally do that) is on rolling race where lower TD makes your wattage smoother and less erratic).

[@JeyDeee89]

@@RoadtoA Yes it is not cheating in Power, but cheating in torque. The gains/losses are not that great, but you have them. Even by shifting down and up you have some torque spikes, and with 2 drivers and the same weak legs, i guess the one without torque spikes has fitter legs in the sprint.

[@RoadtoA]

@ I agree. But is it cheating if everyone has the option? :)

[@danvalicek]

Does this mean the Radio Tower is actually even harder to climb than it already is at 50%? But honestly, what's the point of having this setting option in the first place?

[@RoadtoA]

@@danvalicek Yes, as long as you have a trainer that can simulate those hard gradients. About twice as hard to be exact.;) Then again, as I said, it's about the watts, so if you have the gears, you can simply use an easier one. I think the main point is to enable full potential to people who use mountain bikes or have otherwise limited gearing options.

[@thomassinikangas]

You'll need the same amount of watts to climb the Radio Tower at 100% as at 50%, but you might find yourself running out of gears, which will make it feel tougher to get up. I have my Kickr bike set to replicate the gearing of my in real life racing bike. When trainer difficulty set to 100% I'm not able to get up the toughest climbs. My solution was to add a virtual third small chain ring to the front and now I can get up. For people not having the option of virtual shifting, then lowing trainer difficulty is their only option if running out of gears on climbs .

[@kimpedersen]

So step one for getting the Tron bike is setting difficulty to 0% and do AdZ all day as a flat ride? :)

[@RoadtoA]

Watts are watts. Won't help you on AdZ (or any other steady climb) unless you are at your gearing limit.

[@kimpedersen]

@@RoadtoA damn :D

[@RoadtoA]

@ I know, I know...

[@thomassinikangas]

Won't call it cheating, but for sure giving an advantage when on routes that are having a lot of small hills. The rider with difficulty less than 100% can go through the route with a more steady cadence without having to fiddle with gear shifts.

[@RoadtoA]

Absolutely!

[@Yi5Zhou]

I always go under 50%, so I barely change gear. I can use one or 2 gears to ride on both flat and climb.

[@RoadtoA]

@@Yi5Zhou awesome!

[@rodstevens7452]

I was always under the impression that the trainer differently was like using a bigger or smaller cassette,

[@RoadtoA]

Partly it is but since it basically flattens all the hills, you don't need to shift as often either.

[@blackflamesolutions526]

I reckon almost all A / A+ racers have trainer difficulty set to zero (unless the race organizer prevents it).

[@RoadtoA]

@@blackflamesolutions526 Do you feel that zeroing actually helps? I feel that at some point you kind of lose feedback and it becomes more difficult to react to attacks/change in pace. So far I feel my sweet spot is somewhere around 50% but I'll test all possible settings.

[@blackflamesolutions526]

@@RoadtoA It helps my ageing knees when the gradient suddenly increases and I wasn't paying attention! I adjust mine depending on the race profile. If there are hills I'll go 20-50%, on the flat I'll go for 0.

[@werdsmyth]

I'm an A+ rider and my trainer difficulty is set to 50%. This was set years ago as a requirement from Zwift to race the World Champs qualifiers. Haven't touched the slider bar since.

[@RoadtoA]

@@werdsmyth Thanks for sharing!

[@rab0309]

lol can you stop switching the camera every other sentence... just stop it

[@RoadtoA]

Is it that annoying? Since I am not a native English speaker, I tend to produce a lot of outtakes and switching between AB cameras helps me to keep the footage somewhat natural. If thats disruptive though, I'll try to figure out the way to do it differently!

[@Rosie6060]

@@RoadtoA It's KZbin, not a Howard Hawks movie. So nobody cares about jump cuts, you can just use your A camera and straight cut for content. I'm a cinematographer and I shoot a lot of stuff for UK Broadcast but I would always advise a simpler shooting style for this platform.

[@RoadtoA]

@@Rosie6060 Thanks for the feedback, I'll keep it in mind!

[@rab0309]

@@RoadtoA it takes away from what your video is about so yeah it kind of is.. has nothing to do with being a native English speaker or not.. it's unnecessarily distracting is all

[@RoadtoA]

@@rab0309 Alright, thanks for the feedback, I'll keep it in mind!

[@3WalkingPoles]

Trainer difficulty is a very misleading name. It's just gear range. As you said when I was typing it. 😉

[@RoadtoA]

@@3WalkingPoles extremely misleading name!

[@andrew6889-p5c]

100% correct comment. If people are arguing that lowering this setting is “cheating” then we should start specifying what gears people use on their bike.

[@Velolion]

A common comment (often made by people who only ride/race on Zwift and don't seem to have much experience with IRL riding and racing) is that TD is simply "changing gearing". That is patently incorrect, unless someone can point out gearing that allows me to ride anything from a 25% decline to a 25% incline at the same cadence and same power without ever shifting gears nor feeling resistance changes, which is exactly what 0TD allows. Low TD turns hilly courses into flat TT courses, and I'd pay damned good money for magic gearing that did such a thing and would be wiping it up at the IRL races! A BIG part of being a successful cyclist in the real is what you can do when you're forced to be at either end of your gearing; either spun out on a descent or over geared on a climb. And even if you threw some kind-of ultra-wide gearing on your bike that avoids those situations on a hilly course, like you can often do now with today's ultra-wide gear clusters, you then have to content with larger jumps between gears and thus more time spent outside your self-selected, most comfortable & efficient cadence. Everybody knows that standing and cranking out 300W at 50 RPM up a 20% incline is physiologically very different (and for most, a LOT harder) than spinning up that same climb on Zwift at 0TD at 90 RPM and 300W...even though their wattage output is the same. Even climbing AdZ at 100TD vs 50TD is a tremendously different experience, and for most a much more difficult (and slower) one at 100TD, *even* with proper gearing. There's a good reason why nearly everyone racing on Zwift does so at 50TD or lower...because it allows them to always ride at their self-selected cadence and so they overall go faster and perform better.

[@RoadtoA]

Excellent post! You are completery right, there's way more to it than just having higher gearing range.

[@robertskochinstitut6653]

It is more of a technology issue. Most of the grand tour riders do spin their way up the climbs. the jumps in gearing are not pronounced enough and do not prohibit you from riding at your prefered cadences. Whoever grinds up 20% inclines is choosing to not be efficient. Training both high torque and spinning can be a good idea though, no matter if it is zwift or real life. A lot of the elite zwift riders are exceptional out of the saddle at lower cadences, too. In the end zwift racing is like every other racing. People will use any competitive edge there is. If lower trainer difficulty means i can smooth out my power curve, then i will chose to be more efficient. In training i may do my high torque efforts, but i won't force myself to be inefficient while racing. If you ride an A Race and those pesky 60kg riders go bananas on every incline you don't care about cadence, you either have the watts or you drop.

[@del616]

Personally I think for Zwift raicng it should be locked at a set position. If we are doing a race with big climbs I don't want to be racing a bunch of people treating it as a flat TT.

[@RoadtoA]

@@del616 I get what you are saying but it doesn't play a huge role on big climbs (you still need to produce the same power and it doesn't really matter which gear are you doing this on). The biggest impact is on rolling hills (imagine start of the Titans Grove) where you have to constantly change gears with high TD. With lower one, not as much.

[@del616]

@@RoadtoA yeah for sure and you talk about it with TT and Zwift only riders vs outdoor riders. But it guess for me I just see those TT and flat races why not just race though instead of the punchy or climbing racing? Personal preferences I guess and its a "game" at the end of the day. Anyways love the content

[@austindecoteau2700]

I run 30%-50%

[@RoadtoA]

Which do you actually prefer?

[@adamcoppock5018]

No... It's just like having different gears. A watt is still a watt.

[@RoadtoA]

I assume you didn't watch the video?;) That said, it's not just like having different gears. It smoothens out the torque on rolling terrain (which is arguably pretty significant).

[@harperium_3276]

This is high school physics. Work (output) in Joules (J) is power * time. If trainer difficulty means a hill feels "easier" then it means it takes less power to get up right? Because I am not pushing as hard with my legs. So if Zwift is going to make the climb take the same total energy (output) at any level of trainer difficulty, then it means a lower trainer difficulty will take longer to finish the climb. Lower power requires more time to make the same final output. So the fastest way up the hill would need to be at the highest trainer difficulty assuming you had the leg power to do that. Some KZbinr should illustrate this. Steady power up a hill with Trainer Diff lowest setting vs highest setting, and compare times.

[@RoadtoA]

Oof, where should I start responding to this. First of all, there's another factor to whether hill feels harder or easier besides power, and that's torque. With regards to trainer difficulty, this has two effects: 1) You are climbing super steep hill, think Radio Tower. When you are in Trainer Difficulty at 100%, let's say that all you are able to produce is some amount of watts at very slow cadence. You can't shift up because your legs wouldn't handle it. Let's say you are doing 400 W at 50 RPM. If you changed Trainer Difficulty to 50%, you'd suddenly be able to shift up two or three more gears. You would still be able to produce only 400 W (because that's your max at that point) but you would be able to do that at a comfortable cadence (say 80 RPM). You are doing 400 W in both cases and your finish time at the top of the climb is the same. 2) Imagine a route that is constantly rolling terrain. Something like the routes in NYC. And you want to PR that route. At 100% TD, you would need to shift with every single change in gradient. Your power output would be erratic and constantly changing, You arrive at the end, completely spent, your average power was 250 W. Few days later, you would do the same route, but with 0% trainer difficulty. Since there is no shifting needed, you'd be able to go into time trial mode and lock into fixed power. You again arrive at the end completely spent. But, because your power was consistent, you were able to do 20W more on average as a result and improve your time. This is the difference TD makes. It gets more complicated when there is racing and drafting involved, but you get the point.

[@harperium_3276]

@@RoadtoA Right Trainer Difficulty is like a giant invisible "gear" in front of whatever gear we choose in the game or on our bike.

[@RoadtoA]

@@harperium_3276 Partly. Reducing it "adding" large rear cog for climbing and small rear cog for descending. But like I said, a big part of it is also it smoothens out the variance on a hilly course.

[@ashleypeaker]

@@harperium_3276 think GP Larma has done this on one of his vid’s somewhere👍

[@ralzalychhoeng7893]

I always keep my trainer difficulty at 0%. For indoor training there’s simply no point for me to have my resistance change as the terrain changes. It’s cool but if I’m inside it’s because I’m focusing on steady efforts. If I’m doing 2x30 minutes at threshold then I want a smooth experience. The whole purpose for indoor riding for me is single variable riding to focus on power output not environmental otherwise we all go outside. But yeah the settings are there for people to adjust for themselves based on what they are training for

[@RoadtoA]

Perfectly valid approach! Doesn't it make the ride a little boring for you? Or is that something you are not concerned about?

[@ThePeter123a]

With Trainer Difficulty you can use larger chainrings, which lead to less chain friction. This will put you a few places higher up the Strava Kom list.

[@RoadtoA]

That's a point of view I haven't seen yet about this topic!

[@fab2616]

Never used erg mode...

[@RoadtoA]

Not sure if I understand your point. :)

[@mathieugobeil4619]

Feeling is believing, trainer at 100% is definitely harder than 0 when climbing, don`t even care about speed and gears. ITS harder at 100%, try it and see.

[@RoadtoA]

@@mathieugobeil4619 it is! No argument here. The speed is only based on Watts, but the feeling matters!

[@mathieugobeil4619]

@@RoadtoA Yes of course, depends on your use case also. Its a great feature that will never be removed but I have to say that not having that setting past 85% should fudge your racing score but at the end of the day you`re only 'cheating' yourself if your plan is to simulate IRL.

[@RoadtoA]

@ if you are training for outdoor performance you should definitely use higher settings, agree

[@donwinston]

The trainer difficulty has only one sensible purpose - to enable extremely unfit or physically impaired or under geared people to participate in all of Zwift's routes. Otherwise they would be forced to avoid numerous sections.

[@poweredbyplants416]

No. It just changes the gear ratios.

[@donwinston]

@@poweredbyplants416 Which enables extremely unfit, physically impaired, and under geared people to ride on many routes they otherwise could not.

[@RoadtoA]

I think that's the main purpose, yea.