Is Tyrion a Villain?

[@oscarstainton]

“I wish I was the monster you think I am!” Self-fulfilling prophecy, as far as the books go.

[@no_nameyouknow]

So far it's been a lot of talk and some minor cruel actions but he hasn't done anything really horrific in the books, yer time will tell...

[@RsBanez]

​@@no_nameyouknowhe only raped a slave prostitute, but yeah nothing horrific I guess

[@MugenHeadNinja]

@@no_nameyouknow I'm pretty sure he raped/sexually abused some women, might be misremembering a bit, but definitely not "minor cruel actions."

[@SingingSealRiana]

On both sides, in a way I value him moral higher then stanis for stanis gäbe up so easely and unaware while tyrion fraught tooth and nail his whole life to be good against all and everyone's best efforts to paint him as and make him a monster and never have anything good he did go aknowlaged.... Does that turn him dark, hell yeah, is he on his way into villainy hell yes, but it makes him a fallen hero, not a plain villain

[@americansoccerunited]

What truly villainous things has Tyrion actually done so far in the books...?

[@astrinymris9953]

I think GRRM has it set up that Tyrion's choice of whether to be Good or Evil will determine the fate of Westeros, if not Planetos itself. Remember what the priest of R'hyllor, Moqorro, said to Tyrion in ADwD about "a small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all"? Or how Maester Aemon called Tyrion, "A giant come among us, here at the end of the world"? To me, that indicates that Tyrion is going to be central to whatever happens, whether for good or ill. Well, assuming GRRM ever finishes the story, that is.

[@Levacque]

And in Varys' speech about the illusion of power, he says, "Often a small man can cast a very large shadow."

[@davimelo9181]

Not gonna happen

[@MrShadowbite]

Also Moquarro's vision in the flame echoes this

[@jakelongstaff4102]

or one of my favourite quotes in the first book. when hes going into the hall of winterfell and his shadow is cast from the hall on him in the court yard "for that moment Tyrion Lannister stood as tall as any king"

[@Wolfeson28]

It's interesting how Tyrion's character arc is in many ways the polar opposite of Jaime. Jaime unquestionably comes across as a villain in the first two books, but he gradually becomes more sympathetic starting in book 3 when we begin to get his pov chapters. By the time we get into books 4 and 5, we can see that Jaime is actually on a path of trying to do the right thing, even if he often has a difficult time figuring out what that is, and we can even start to root for him a little to find that path. On the other hand, Tyrion is set up to be sympathetic right from the start - the character who everyone else despises for things completely beyond his control who nonetheless keeps trying to do good, only to be kicked around even more for it. But as the abuse he sustains piles up, and he inevitably starts lashing out in increasingly dark ways, we find it becoming harder and harder to root for him, even as we can still understand and sympathize with the reasons he does what he does. Where will these two characters on opposite trajectories (and still with a genuine bond between them) end up? Will one be able to redeem the other, or will one have to earn their redemption by destroying the other?

[@Synthpopper]

I really hope Jaime is the one to save Tyrion eventually, repaying the brotherly debts they owed each other

[@RTU130]

Ye

[@aaroncohen2700]

To be fair Tyrion was never a altruistic or I’d say even empathetic person. He took a lot after Tywin, but being a big scary asshole only works when you’re the head of a great house.

[@melissaharris3389]

I think GRRM is exploring how cruelty and trauma can both make monsters and heroes. Jamie first trys indifference and disassociation to deal with the horrors he witnesses and been s part of: the crultyof his father. The madness of King Aryes and his burnings. The sack of King's Landing. Jamie is a good person forced to witness and participate in evil acts and it makes him indifferent and selfish until he can't take it anymore. Then he meets Byrann. She has refused to let the crulty of the world, and Jamie's cynicism, grind her down. She offers a model of what it is to be honorable, a ture knight and a good person outside his family. In Tyrion we're seeing how abuse and cruelty can destroy a person over time. This is how monsters are made. Tyrion is given his own model for goodness in Penny; but, unlike Jamie who finds a path to redeemtion Tyrion rejects Penny. He rejects redemption. At least for now.

[@RW77777777]

Jaime is dumb. Tyrion can never use that excuse

[@frankyfraaank]

I always viewed the Lannister family itself as the collection of villains, all of whom have redeeming qualities. Tyrion, a Lannister, IS a villain by blood but because he is a villain in the eyes of his own family make him the protagonist disguised as a villain.

[@chardaskie]

Cersei being her love for her children and Jaime not wanting innocents to die... at least en masse

[@lou3719]

​@@chardaskie But Jamie ended up admitting that he doesn't really care about people.😅

[@BeastscopesCL]

we don't talk about that scene (or at least pretend it was a part of the manipulation)@@lou3719

[@rodrigobueno8652]

Villain protagonist is a thing you know, protagonism is more about central role in the story than moral or heroics, joker is the protagonist of his movie but is still a villain, Light fo death note etc etc

[@short11000]

👌

[@wisedude4285]

Wasn't it GRRM who said the villain is just the hero of the other side? With that in mind, as many others have also said, he may be a villain but not the villain

[@samwinchester1326]

Yeah. But tyrion is the villain on every side. His own family despises him, and also every POV character

[@animeman8203]

@@samwinchester1326 His family has hated him since he was born before he even did anything and considering how evil they are.

[@stars-and-clouds]

​​@@samwinchester1326agreed. I'm pretty sure he also despises himself. Even more so now. He can be terrible but he's not a terrible person, yet he seems dead set on proving to everyone and himself that he is terrible. He's deflecting a lot. A lot of his wit and charm comes off as bravado to hide his self despise, he's just super intelligent so it is not obvious. I don't think there is a single person on planetos who likes him anymore, including himself, which is another reason is he so desperate to find Tysha. I'm sure Jamie loves him as a brother, out of fraternity, but he doesn't like him anymore, if that makes sense.

[@theblackswordsman7558]

​​​@@stars-and-cloudshow can you say tyrion isn't bad when he r*ped his wife and allowed his wife to get r*ped by multiple men ??? He justified it in his mind by saying to himself that she's just a "wh*re" and now that it was revealed to him that she was an innocent peasant girl who genuinely loved him he understands he is a wicked person and wants to spread chaos upon the world how is that good!?!?!?? Tyrion is a monster stop sugarcoating the actions of a r*pist.

[@LuzMaria95]

yup

[@joetedesco63]

You are spot on!! Tyrion has REACTED to the world. Though not an excuse, it IS a good reason in my view!

[@chandir7752]

@@thegodplace7887 Plankton in Spongebob, the joker, Frankenstein's Monster and pretty much any villain ever, even many non-fictional criminals.

[@jaredmcdaris7370]

“Know: what they make of us, such we become.” - The Pall of Medusa

[@daniell1483]

I always found it strange how Martin thinks of Tyrion as a villain. He has done some bad stuff no doubt, but he is one of the most self-aware characters when it comes to morality. One line that always sticks out at me is in the Purple Wedding when Sansa freaks out that Ice is gone, Tyrion finally put together where Tywin got the Valyrian steel for both Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper. His first thought? "I should have sent Ice to Robb Stark." He saw the immorality in what Tywin was trying to do, trying to make the Starks into another example like the Reynes and Tarbecks (houses Tywin exterminated to show his "power). Most of the truly awful people on the story take some pleasure in being villainous. Tyrion never does and recognizes how black his own deeds are. I'm not sure there are any other characters in the books with this degree of moral clarity.

[@Laketwig]

Tyrion has a long list of fucked up shit he does and doesnt care.

[@daniell1483]

@@Laketwig Tyrion does have a long list of moral failures, I said as much myself. "Doesn't care"? No, that is just wrong. Tyrion cares deeply. He knows his chain lead to the deaths of thousands, he acknowledges his kinslaying, and so on. He recognizes it and calls himself a "revenant" sent to haunt the world. He knows what he has done is wrong, but it isn't like he can somehow undo those things. This has caused him tremendous pain, to the point of suicidal ideation at times. No, his conscience is eating him alive.

[@buddhastl7120]

He often made a fool of himself. Drinking to the point of public embarrassment and notably frequenting whore houses. Not exactly self-aware as he was an embarrassment to himself and his House.

[@daniell1483]

@@buddhastl7120 Guess you are mixing up the show Tyrion and book Tyrion. The only time he visited a brothel prior to fleeing Westeros was to meet up with Shae, using the facade of going to brothels as cover. Further, Tyrion seems to have something of a reputation among the more intelligent nobles as well. Garlan Tyrell openly brags about the importance of Tyrion in the battle of the Blackwater where Garlan himself received most of the credit. Tyrion and Oberyn debate one another as well on history and politics. No, in the books, the lords in the know recognize Tyrion's value and valor. Besides Tywin's irrational hatred of Tyrion and Cersei's irrational fear of him, Tyrion has proven himself resourceful, brave, and cunning.

[@BobbyKobayashi]

@@buddhastl7120 You fail at your premise, you can do those things and still be self aware. I think he was intentionally a blight on his house and family. You sound like a puritan, who can only see things from your so called wholesome POV.

[@aner_bda]

To me, Tyrion fully embodies what I love about George RR Martin's writing. He's horribly flawed, does bad things to people, get trampled on, but at the end of the day, he has great core values that he always tries to stick by. I truly complex and memorable character.

[@ryanstephenson7312]

Baffles me that people are surprised when mistreated people lash out

[@theelectricprince8231]

Lashing out is not the same as being a villian, Tyrion is judged far more harshly in Westeros and by the fandom.

[@LuzMaria95]

Ikr!!

[@aarontalksculture4946]

In real life there are those who seem naturally malevolent regardless of situation and circumstance. Then there are those who have had a long series of bad circumstances, and bad luck, and people making false negative assumptions about them. After a while they become coarse and may even embrace the negative persona. If life is always kicking down at you it will be hard to be a positive and optimistic force for good, even if that is your natural inclination. Tyrion seems like the latter to me.

[@Nephlyte348]

Having a hard life doesn’t absolve him of his actions just because there is some understanding of the underlying causes. He’s a complex character. Doesn’t make him NOT a villain in a broader sense (though the word villain is kind of limiting here).

[@biocaster777]

​​@@Nephlyte348He's a villian in a setting full of villians. He's a villian by normal standard for sure, but the setting make him "hero" pretty much by proxy because many others are wayyyyy more despicable. It's like seeing Tau, Eldar or Imperium being heroes in 40k. They're only "heroes" because everybody else are much, much worse. And by that I mean you choose between genocide as preemptive measure (Imperium) and giving people fate worse than death because you got bored, horny or both (Dark Eldar).

[@Nephlyte348]

He's definitely not a "hero." At best, he's an anti-hero but only to a point. The only main characters that really can be coded as heroes are pretty much just the Starks. I'd definitely consider him one of the protagonists though, but a protagonist can be anything. Doesn't have to be a hero just because he's a main character.

[@biocaster777]

@@Nephlyte348 I put quotation there for a reason. He's "hero" in comparison, not by conventional sense which would make him a villian in any other setting. And anti-hero are basically just hero with flaws, when it all boils down to.

[@Nephlyte348]

Sure but I feel like in a literary sense an anti-hero usually is someone that does heroic stuff for selfish reasons not because it's "morally right." So I'd say that describes Tyrion better than hero does. But I mainly just think the word "hero" is limiting because I don't think it accurately describes what Tyrion is in the story.

[@SelphieTheNutter]

Thanks for another brilliant video Robert, it's nice to see you making more in depth videos again instead of just focusing on pod casts.

[@breakingbadheisenberg9703]

Tyrion has always reminded me of Claudius of I Claudius , Hes a survivor within his own family , Ridiculed and demeaned, But alas the sole survivor of a tyrannical family .

[@TheBaronAmaruPhoenix]

Thats it exactly pushed off to the side but is really brilliant

[@paulhowatt7040]

"His response was disproportionate and brutal"?!? Tywin would have had Shae HANGED. He literally told Tyrion he would hang Shae if she was discovered. And Symon Silvertongue threatens to tell TYWIN about Shae, which would lead to Shae's hanging, since Tywin would never show Tyrion mercy and spare Shae's life (Source: TYSHA). He saved Shae's life from an asshole trying to put it at risk so he could sing at the Purple Wedding. This criticism of Tyrion ignores crucial details about the situation these characters have to navigate, and shoehorns Tyrion into some desired category that doesn't suit him. Side note: "Tyrion's sense that the world is against him" is CORRECT. The people of King's Landing, from the smallfolk to the Lords, saw Tyrion as at best a farse and at worst a "Monkey Demon". Tyrion never had ANYONE. Jaime was the only person to treat Tyrion like a person worthy of love and respect. And then Tyrion learned that Jaime deceived him and set up Tywin's brutal treatment of Tysha. At that point, Tyrion has nobody, and up is down, wrong is right, and, oh yeah, "where do whores go"? Everything good and heartbreaking about Tyrion is left out of this video, and so we can’t truly see him as the character that best fits Martin's CORE MISSION: To explore the human heart in conflict with itself. Tyrion is that conflict. But only the darker elements of his heart are shown here, and their origin is misconstrued by leaving out crucial context (Symon's betrayal of Shae). But his decisions to do what's right in the face of INCREDIBLE PRESSURE (Tywin ordering him to rape Sansa), his effort to save a city he could easily have abandoned, and his hopes that he could live a loving life with someone who truly cared for him, are missing. Also: Shae (in)effectively killed Tyrion by claiming that he was plotting to KILL THE WHOLE ROYAL FAMILY, which, if Tyrion hadn't demanded trial by combat, would have meant TYRION'S DEATH. I hate having to criticize you like this, because I like a lot of your videos, but I just think you're doing Tyrion wrong.

[@theelectricprince8231]

It's weird how people forget about Tyrions trial in the Eyrie, how nobody gave him the benefit of the doubt. A lot of character anylysis of Tyrion feels like it is made by people who live in Westeros and have only heard the bad and false things about him. It is incredibly reductive.

[@nont18411]

Yep, this video feels like a Tywin-Cersei propaganda

[@UnaPersona-b1y]

I think that, more than just being loved, Tyrion wants _to be able to love someone_ . He is the character who loves most intensely, but also the one who hates most viscerally. In my country there is a very well-known play, I won't go into details, but in that play there is a dialogue that I think fits with his situation. "I didn't even ask for someone to love me anymore, it would have been enough for me to have someone to love"

[@sirsplintfastthepungent1373]

Funny how Varys is absolved of all wrongdoing in Tywin's death, given he's the one who steered Tyrion up the secret passage in the tower.

[@LuzMaria95]

exactly!!!

[@Valkanna.Nublet]

The thing I love about SIF is that there are very few 'villains' and 'heroes', most people are some shade of grey. I also love how there isn't just character progression and growth, there's also reader understanding growth. Where many times we're introduced to a character and shown what they're like, form an opinion about them, but then as the story progresses the character changes (or more is revealed about their true self) and the readers understanding and attitude also changes.

[@Biggestkidyouknow]

He is definitely the big bad villain he’s a midget

[@DaVonE-o8j]

5:05 Tyrion doesn’t order him put in the stew lol, he just wants him gone It’s brons idea to stew him, which I always thought was more of a joke. Maybe bron was frl

[@JohnSmith-ls3um]

The fact we’re having this conversation is a credit to GRRM’s phenomenal character writing and development.

[@mattcuti2961]

He is a villain, but not THEE villain, imo. Euron gets an honorable mention, but to me, Bran and Bloodraven are the big bads

[@borisdorofeev5602]

Yea my first thought of Bran being evil or on the side of ice and dark was Jon's first warg dream in the Frost Fangs. He sees Bran as a tree and in the dark, he tells Jon he likes it in the dark but Jon backs away and growls because Bran smells of death. What sealed it for me was Melisandra, the evil on the side of light and fire, saying that she sees the enemy as an old man with a boy or something like that.

[@jasonjohnson9072]

@@borisdorofeev5602very early Jamie the arrogant knight who fucks his sister throws sweet innocent Bran out the window. We hate Jamie with every fibre of our being in that moment and pity poor Bran who only dreamt of being a knight. George played us then. It’s the exact emotions he wanted. As the story goes on we are slowly beginning to like Jamie. But we are still blinded to Brans arc because of that innocent boy thing. Beans possession of Hodor is cruel and tormenting. He describes the exhilaration of mentally overpowering him. He eats Jojen paste and is on the dead side of the wall. The innocent boy image is staying with us longer than it should. Jamie will arc to be abhor ahai. But he needs to kill Cersie first to complete his transformation into the golden hero and fulfill the Nissan nissa prophecy. Then when Jamie successfully kills bran we will rejoice, without realising how we felt about him the first time he tried to do that. It’s gonna be incredible. This is not my theory, but it’s by far the favourite one I’ve heard.

[@SingingSealRiana]

Nah, fallen hero is a way more precise describtor, that is not to say he does not do appealing things but you would not call an antihero plain a hero either so same courtesy to him

[@Dadecorban]

Good troll.

[@cherylbaxter8986]

I agree in all counts

[@HpacEastern]

Part of the genius of GoT's, before dumb and dumber took over the writing, was that almost every character had played the hero and the villain at some point in the show.

[@fuckthis101]

Except Ned right ? I can’t think of anything he has done that was villainous ?

[@ElMarlish]

He died, that was super villainous, how dare he gets Sean Bean killed AGAIN ?! @@fuckthis101

[@tereza1959]

​@@fuckthis101 well he did cut the head off that guy that tried to warn them about the white walkers in ep 1

[@fuckthis101]

@@tereza1959 even though I didn't like that , deserting the nights watch means you get your head cut off ... By the law , so still not very villainous

[@marcusreading3783]

@@tereza1959 Thats no more villainous than a judge sentencing a murderer to death. True, the crimes are nowhere near as sever, but he was fulfilling his duty in maintaining the law of the land. He took no pleasure in it and simply did his job. Thats not a villainous action. Frankly, Neds only real sin in the series is being a naïve moron.

[@ivanmacias6921]

I have missed you so long. I play your videos almost daily!

[@elijahbrown9738]

I think it's entirely possible in the books, Tyrion may provide Dany to burn kind landing. They didn't treat him so well..

[@user-pf4sk8im4b]

Wouldn't be the first time he's set fire to King's Landing either. When clearing up the shanty on the wall, he was fairly dispassionate about the potential of burning peasants if they chose not to vacate.

[@wodensol5000]

​@@user-pf4sk8im4bthats just tyrion basically being like fuck around and find out. I don't think that's all too bad.

[@mohammadahmad3455]

At the Purple wedding, Joffrey was making Tyrion constantly. Even one of the lords said to Joffrey, “That was ill done your Grace,” when Joffrey poured wine over Tyrion. Ironically, Tyrion tried to cover for Joffrey by saying that the king wanted to give his humble servant a drink and it was his own fault for not properly accepting. Also Shae deserved what happened to her. I would call it as justice since the woman got herself involved in matters she should have stayed away from.

[@lilitharam44]

I would be interested in seeing a video about Victarion Greyjoy. I agree with your assessment of Tyrion. Keep up the great work!

[@jjurss7263]

The more times I reread the story, the more I feel that Tyrion is actually a protagonist of the story, maybe even THE protagonist. We do, afterall, get more POV chapters from him than anyone else in the story.

[@jamesdooling4139]

I think early on, Tyrion was supposed to be acting the fool whilst secretly plotting. But now? He's becoming the "don't judge a book by its cover" good guy. Not what GRRM planned 20yrs ago.

[@JervisGermane]

I think he was SUPPOSED to be a villain at first, just like he was supposed to be a secret Targaryen, Catelyn was supposed to die beyond the wall, and Jaime was supposed to end up as king. But his character has moved on a lot since Martin said all that. That was at least 25 years ago. We're all different people now. Whether Tyrion will turn out to be a hero, a villain, a victim, a puppet master, an agent of chaos, or a mix of all of those remains to be seen. He's played all of those roles at least twice already. It all depends how George wants it to go. As a side note, it's interesting that Tyrion's false confession to Jaime is both the lie and the part he said just to hurt Jaime, and Jaime never thinks of it again. It's the other part, the true thing he tosses out as a prelude to the cruel lie, that Jaime runs through over and over again in his mind. Even in-world, people's words and actions don't always have the intended effects. I suspect the man who wrote that passage understands that his character may not end up the way he originally meant him to.

[@dougmorrow746]

I suspect one of the reasons JRRM is having such a hard time finishing his last book is that the TV show (and more specifically, Peter Dinklage) did such a great job of crafting Tyrion into a hero or at least a deeply sympathetic and likable character, that to turn him into a villain or the "big bad" at the end is going to piss off most of his fans. So now he's stuck trying to reconcile the book/s an the TV show.

[@GabrielPintoMusic]

G*RRM.

[@AnzuBrief]

I doubted. The TV show didn't turn Tyrion into a hero, they turned him into dumbwit. I much rather had a cunning, intelligent villain than an idiot.

[@Troll_Rottentooth]

I called my dog Tyrion. I love the character in the books. He’s the most interesting one to me.

[@Patisson_1]

Yes, this is the most fun perspective on ASOIAF character

[@frankvandorp2059]

He will be in the upcoming books. Dance with Dragons more or less is his transformation into a villain. But in direct opposition to how the show bungled his character, he will be one of the main bad influences on Daenerys, using her as his tool to get revenge on his family.

[@renferal5290]

I really like Tyrion. I'm really glad that he survived.

[@bennett420316]

AMAZING opinion on this one, Truly outdone yourself here. 😊

[@DominicanStud101]

I can’t wait for Tyrion’s story in Winds.

[@ELFBOYMUSIC]

Love your videos dude can’t wait for your coverage of HOTD season 2

[@Chaos_God_of_Fate]

The People in Flea Bottom were already cannibals dude :P

[@alexmc7798]

“Take a small step back and you can start to see the IMPerfections…” this is too good and too much 😅

[@natie3322]

There is one thing Tyrion still has that he might lose… If Penny betrays him he could dwell on the thought that even another dwarf cannot love him… and heard a theory Penny is a LF sleeper agent waiting for orders. What would that do to him?…Otherwise he seems destined to have a hand in the destruction of KL, to be the Last Lannister, to lose his toungue, to ride a dragon, to piss at the ACTUAL end of the World. And maybe to die to birth new dragons. And at some point Sansa will tell him that she wishes him to return safely as much as she does her Lord (Jon?) and actually mean it as a friend.

[@DneilB007]

He’s Richard III. Charismatic, witty, broken, brave to the point of brashness, vindictive, and very, very good at the long game. I mean, even to the point of being blamed for killing his nephew(s), GRRM is dressing him up in the clothes of the scene-stealing prince of Shakespeare’s English Historical plays. Of course he’s the villain. Who doesn’t like a good villain?

[@melissaharris3389]

Villan protagonist.

[@DneilB007]

@@melissaharris3389Absolutely.

[@awesomehpt8938]

The white walkers are actually the heroes. They tried to save us from that awful ending. Night king > Bran the broken.

[@buddhastl7120]

Agreed. They were made to save the world from humanity’s greed, ie Bran.

[@DerekRoy-nc6hw]

So far in the books Tyrion is a villain right now. George gave the interview in 1999 which is around the time book 3 was published which is when Tyrion starts to become a villain. Instead of having Tyrion start off as a villain George decided to build up to Tyrion becoming a villain.

[@lindsay9838]

I wish this video would’ve been longer! So good!

[@DBProds96]

same, should have been a month long

[@Franz_Morhart]

Tyrion has been consistent throughout all the books, actually: deeply flawed. His negative traits shine through more often and are more pronounced thanks to his current situation, but he is fundamentally the same. Capable of a great many things, good and ill, depending on which traits are amplified. Many readers of the first two books simply overlooked his bad side, in favor of viewing him as "the good Lannister." when in fact, neither Jamie nor Cersei, nor Tywin were ALL bad (Although for some of them, you had to look pretty hard to find their humanity)

[@theelectricprince8231]

Nah Cersei and Tywin are evil. But Tyrion is the same

[@davidhelmer9124]

I’m still waiting for the Ramsey Bolton “Face Turn” in the battle against the Long Night

[@Dadecorban]

Tyrion is doing what he has to, with what he has to, to survive and meet his normative obligations. His most terrible acts were done at the extremity of human experience, terrible acts meeting terrible acts. A villain chooses the terrible when there are reasonable alternatives because he wants it/likes it or he exceeds the norms of the day for the asymmetric utility of doing so when others will not, because he is capable of making that choice, every time, and others are not. To be a villain is to do and be consistently what others are not willing to do, and this usually presents in breaking norms and the sacred. This is what makes Tywin Lannister a villain. Tywin wins (and also loses) because he is willing to go further than everyone else in norm breaking. Tyrion's premeditated killings are all directed against people that he has the legal authority to kill, are demonstrably immoral themselves, and are direct threats to his survival; they are few and far between. Tywin had an entire wedding murdered in contravention to all the norms and morals of the day, and we don't even get an introspective "Hrmm.....I sometimes question this decision" moment (we don't get a Tywin POV though). Tyrion satisfies all the characteristics of a gray character where Daemon Targaryan, if he is one at all, barely qualifies.

[@mr.snulch]

It does seem strange that George considered Tyrion the "villain" after writing Clash - by then Tyrion was established as a complex character with a strong moral compass, by no means evil. I think the reason George considers him as such is some combination of: 1. Martin originally conceived him as a wretched evil dwarf with a sharp tongue, and that archetype lingers in his view of the character. 2. Tyrion's wildfire attack at the Blackwater is a staple villain move. He burns thousands of soldiers to ashes to keep a psychopathic evil king in power (for complex personal reasons, but still objectively the villain of that battle on paper). 3. George may have an inkling of where he wants to go with the character, and based on some of Tyrion's thoughts in Dance with Dragons, it does not look pretty. George may have always loosely planned to grow Tyrion into a more wicked person, and the first 3 books were simply his "villain origin story" in a sense.

[@Talyrion]

I think it has little to do with Tyrion being conceived as a "wretched evil dwarf" (he was arguably never conceived as such, except in the eyes of the world at large), or even with the Blackwater battle and more with how his desire for revenge is seemingly becoming a bigger and bigger part of his character. His desire for retribution is understandable, but it leads him toward darker and darker acts and thoughts.

[@mr.snulch]

In Martin's original plan for the book, Tyrion was supposed to be more of a traditional villain who takes the throne by trickery. But yes what you're saying speaks to my third point, which is probably the main reason for sure. George definitely plans on growing Tyrion into a darker character.@@Talyrion

[@gustavoferroni2693]

Strong moral compass? Tyrion is a serial rapist with a murderous appetite that sometimes gets bizarre or sadistic. Who orders the murder of a singer and mixes him on a stew that the poor eat (WTF). He murdered his father while he was unarmed and taking a shit. Murdering Shae by strangulation. He poisoned Nurse who was already sick. He rapes the bedwarmer in Pentos (and gets angry at her). Then he rapes the prostitute in Volantis while being angry at her, he actually raped her out of anger. If you think about his first wife, he also raped her after she had been raped many many times - oh, some might say Tywin ordered him. He obeyed and was able to perform the deed. He talks many times of raping Cersei as a punishment to her. Tyrion is pretty sick and disturbed. He is A villain for sure. He hates women, is a sexual predator and kills and rapes who he dislikes just for vengeance. Tyrion is a sociopath for sure! Compare him to Jon Snow or Davos for example. How many people did they rape? How many did they kill ordered killed with cruelty? How many did they kill out of anger like Tyrion did with Shae and Tywin?

[@georgeprchal3924]

There's a reason Genna says he's Tywin's true son. Book Tyrion is cunning, vicious, and ruthless. They should have sent him to the Vale after all to sort out Lysa Tully.

[@gohan_j]

I believe that one of the significant factors influencing George's future writings, especially after 'Game of Thrones,' is the fan reaction to the TV series characters. Whether consciously or subconsciously, it seems likely that he will take fan responses to the TV characters into consideration when writing these characters. This could be one of the reasons why he appears to be facing challenges with 'The Winds of Winter' (TWoW). In some cases, characters who didn't play a substantial role in the books became fan favorites on the screen, while some prominent book characters received a lukewarm reception. For instance, take Tyrion Lannister. In the books, he's portrayed with a complex and morally ambiguous nature, and it will be interesting to see if George's portrayal in TWoW aligns more closely with the charismatic depiction by Peter Dinklage in the TV series.

[@HuntingViolets]

"His revenge turns the people of Flea Bottom into cannibals." I was always extremely disturbed by this and his murder of the minstrel.

[@Matt-xc6sp]

Counterpoint: they were hungry

[@-_-5470]

Most of them were already probably

[@brianjennings]

He is, almost assuredly, not the first person to do that. My recollection is that the purveyors of "brown" are notably not picky about their meat.

[@Grandmaster-Kush]

Hey that's the first time flea bottom got proper meat and not rat scraps and half spoiled stuff

[@flintliddon]

The people of flea bottom can take care of themselves. They dont need you to wring your hands

[@forgottenfamily]

You forgot one crucial thing that history might remember him for: regicide. He was convicted of the death of Joffrey and whether the Lannisters and other nobles knew this to be a frame job or not, he will go down in history like that, furthered in no small part by the murder of his father and, if Dany does have a madness arc in the books, his alignment to the mad Queen. And if he were to die from collateral of her rampage, he would have no path to redeeming his name in the eyes of the people.

[@timelliott841]

Narrated as though there is any prospect of any future for any of the characters or story. My sweet summer child.

[@tomswiftyphilo2504]

the thing to remember is that in the source material, Tyrion is Richard III: an able administrator, general, and, despite his deformities, a formidable soldier in his own right. But does RIII get any credit? of course not. Because his side doesn't win.

[@christophertracy7136]

On the show he did become the villain. He spoke 2 Jon Snow that would his sisters bend the knee? Dany wasn't crazy she wanted 2 break the wheel together! She won the last war yet burned King's Landing? No. Red Keep? Yes. She said that her enemies were in the Red Keep in S7. Tyrion was the worst hand ever! I think he was protecting his family! What if he had not found his siblings corpses?

[@samwinchester1326]

He is the villain from EVERY other POV character. That alone makes him simply the villain.

[@laura-ann.0726]

Tyrion is not the only character in SOIAF who has a remarkably different personality in the HBO series than in the novels. Jorah Mormont, Olenna Tyrell, and Tyrion are all three significantly "less dark" in the HBO series than the way they felt to me in the books. Jamie, on the other hand, feels less evil to me in the books than he does in the HBO series. I'd say that the most accurate transpositions of personality between the books and the HBO series are Jon Snow (all of the Starks, really, are "good guys"), Joffrey, Tywin, and Circe. Ser Barristan Selmy, Ser Davos, Breanne of Tarth, Sandor Clegane, Daenerys, Maester Aemon, and Littlefinger all translated from the books to the HBO series pretty accurately in my estimation. But it seems to me that if the ending of the HBO series (Bran as the new King of Westeros, Arya sailing off into the sunset, etc) represents where Martin wants the story to end, the final chapter of Dance with Dragons is barely halfway through the story. The whole Jon Connnington/Aegon VI arc, and the 50-ship fleet under Visarion Greyjoy getting ready to land in Mereen - these aren't even in the HBO series. Circe blowing up the Sept to eliminate a whole bunch of her perceived enemies, that's still to come in Winds of Winter, unless Martin has decided that Circe isn't going to do it in the book. There is still a HUGE amount of in-universe time in the upboming book(s) for the various characters to change direction, maybe radically. Tyrion could go either way; I'm a sucker for happy endings, so I'd like to see him let go of his inner demons and turn toward the light, but I'm sure there are plenty of SOIAF fans who'd love to see him go full-Dark Side and go totally berserk for revenge on Circe and everyone else who has done him wrong.

[@hi-ls6lt]

I always felt though that Littlefinger was a bit less “creepy”/ more friendly in the books. Everyone seemed to distrust him in the show barring Lysa when it was the complete opposite in the books.

[@TheFTLTRAVELER]

In a way, Tyrion and Jaime are a lot alike. Jaime did a wrong thing for the right reason and was hated for it. He took that anger and basically said, "fuck me? Well fuck you too". And acted like an asshole ever since even though it's clear he was actually a better person than that. Tyrion has been hated too for reasons he couldn't control. At first, he used jokes and sarcasm to cope with it. Now he is seeming to use Jaime's cope. The point I'm trying to make is that they have both been hated and the ways they chose to cope have turned them into people that I don't think they would normally be.

[@PatrickLongblkwhtrbbt]

I was really really confused at first because I could have sworn you'd already done this exact video. But that was Alt Shift X. Who did, in fact, do this exact video. The Real Tyrion Lannister is the title; well worth a watch if you haven't seen it yet.

[@TheOriginalDarkSheep]

Tyrion is not the villain, but he will be remembered as the villain all the same..

[@SpiritGirlSF]

Even if one ight think Tyrion isn't a villain, its seems the actor himself is turning out to be a traitor

[@SpiritGirlSF]

*might

[@Denise-ki9ii]

I like Tyrion but I think he is the Mummers Dragon - he is in a mummers show and the hints about the mad king being his father are there. George also said he modelled Tyrion on Shakespeares Richard iii. I think that is what he meant that Tyrion is an entertaining villain in the same vein.

[@tunafour-shoes4618]

Here's the thing. Tyrion is a "Nice Guy" and I use that term with every negative meaning there is. He does show more empathy than the rest of his family (the lowest bar in the universe), but he still very much operates on entitlement. Entitlement to people, their feelings and admiration. And in the end, he views people more like resources than actual beings deserving of respect. Yes. Tyrion does feel guilt for the cruel things he does. But I think the Bojack Horseman quote describes perfectly, why that is not enough: "You can't keep doing shitty things, and then feel bad about yourself like that makes it okey!"

[@GBfanatic15]

there's nothing I love more than a morally grey character, actions that might be celebrated by some would be vilified by others. I think Tyrion is ultimately a decent person and what he wants more than anything is to be loved. I can absolutely understand him going dark if after finding out that the only person who looked out for him is also the reason the woman he loved got raped, he loses himself but ultimately he still shows that despite the pain that causes him he DOES care for others...I can't really blame him for wanting revenge on the people who continued to vilify him even after he saved Kings Landing...the rage is understandable

[@Dustaroo]

I have come around to the thought that Tyrion will probably become the puppetmaster behind Dany's fall into Tyranny. when he does come to dany he has given up on finding a purpose or greater goal and will manipulate her into causing as much chaos and death to Westeros and his family. he will whisper in her ear to gain her trust, aim her and push her more fiery instincts. The exact opposite of his show counterpart. His journey of the underdog we were rooting for is actually showing what can drive people with even initially good values and morals to become monsters.

[@rustygray5058]

The thing is, Dany is already a tyrant with an unhealthy obsession for burning things. It's just easy to overlook the stuff she's doing so far because she's only burning "bad guys".

[@johnivory3245]

Yes. We see the story from his perspective so it’s easy to sympathize with him. I definitely think he will have a more corrupting influence on Dany in the books. Play up the fire and blood.

[@samuelleask1132]

Great take!

[@ThommyofThenn]

I had a thought about Tyrion's alignment. I'm attempting to word this as respectfully and compassionately as possible. Maybe my view of Tyrion is influenced by his being a shorter person. Do I cut Tyrion a lot of slack because in the back of my mind, I don't want any predjudices or sterotyping to become part of my reading experience? In daily life, I attempt to be kind and see all people as equal. Maybe this real life behavior is influencing my perception of the character? I apologise if any wording of this comment is poorly chosen. I'll edit if so

[@Nephlyte348]

Depends on how you define villain, but he’s definitely no anti-hero or whatever Dinklage’s version is supposed to be. Tywin’s description is somewhat on point: “spiteful and filled with envy, lust, and low-cunning.” It’s not completely fair but it’s not wholly inaccurate. Even if we can trace the reasons why he is the way he is, it doesn’t absolve him of his actions. He hates his family but still is very much Tywin’s son.

[@barbiquearea]

I think of Tyrion as a villain in the same way as Mary Shelley's Frankenstein Monster. Someone who started out with a good nature and just wanted love and companionship, but was treated like a monster by his own creator, as well as society at large because of his frightening appearance. This made him very bitter and angry at society (as well as the man who created him), causing him to become the villain everyone saw him as.

[@eric2500]

Love this!

[@flamingfishsticks1412]

Killing Shae wasn't that bad at all. If you were on trial for murder with the punishment being death, and then someone was being paid to lie to incriminate you falsely (i.e., they're trading your life for money). If you got the chance for revenge... that's not "the blackest deed", that's justice.

[@theelectricprince8231]

It's not justice either. Shae is not innocent but she is the most "innocent" person Tyrion has ever killed. It is his blackest deed

[@jmsytbe]

THE villain, no, but he's certainly A villain, something that the show forgot.

[@dvdv8197]

1:30 "Quarter of century/3 books ago." Shots fired! 😅😂

[@glamourweaver]

The play in Braavos is clearly establishing that he is Westerosi history’s Richard II in terms of monstrous caricature and the War of the Roses parallels.

[@cyberneticthezero]

Great content

[@tsoliot5913]

I think the fact that killing Shay is considered by George to be Tyrion's blackest deed is telling. It's a deeply selfish murder. A crime of dispassion, of akrasia. He allows his pathos to overcome his moral self-image.

[@garmisra7841]

Is too simple to slot these characters in boxes like villain or hero. The ostensible heroes have done reprehensible things. Hell, Eddard Stark, the most noble character in the books, has a first act of beheading someone (earned or not). The villains - at least the obvious ones - are occasionally admirable. This is a world of black and grey morality, most of the POV characters will have to deal with the karma of their deeds, or will end up in situations where they have to make morally questionable choices and take actions that, devoid of context or an understanding of expediency, are as evil, cruel, or villainous as any.

[@scheherazade2291]

I saw your thumbnail and immediately thought yes. While I like show Tyrion, book Tyrion is a villain. Maybe not as bad as some other villains in this story, but a villain nonetheless.

[@ThePainOfSilenc]

I think most of the people in Flea Bottom already were cannibals before Tyrion. I took that to be the point of Gendry saying, “We pretended it was chicken, it wasn’t chicken.” Dunk also has a story about tossing a rotten human head into a kettle of brown in Flea Bottom.

[@ianmacdiarmid1249]

Interviewed in 1999 about a series he still hasn't finished.

[@ianfarquharson3772]

He was a villain to 6 little people in the new Snow White🤔😖

[@gtr5973]

Not a villain in my book. No hero either but he has a far better moral compass than almost all the other main characters.

[@patrickdematosribeiro1845]

Everyone is the hero of their own story. Now I really want a POV of Gregor or Ramsay during some of their darker deeds to see how they tell their own story. Because I cannot see anything good in their behaviour in some cases and not even see any purpose in them beside the pleasure in seeing others suffer.

[@williamst.romain7393]

I have wrestled with this question for years and am now convinced that yes, Tyrion is the bad guy. Or at least as close as anyone in ASOIAF can be. What I think is that GRRM has always intended for Tyrion to be the spark that sets off the bonfire. What I mean is, though Tyrion himself may not do evil, he very much encourages others to. I'm sure that his driving Faegon to invade Westeros is one example. But I am sure others can be added to the list from what has already been published. His behavior is only going to get worse from here.

[@Cuanchankane]

Weren't people in Flea Bottom already cannibals?

[@scottfitzpatrick1939]

Peter Dinklage has so much charm. He embodies doing what he can for the greater good becasue he knows suffering from his own bad circumstances. But he is often put in no win situations.

[@Jem1381]

is he a villain? yes absolutely, defending Joffrey and King's Landing against Stannis proves this. is the THE villain of ASOIAF? no, absolutely not we have Euron Greyjoy, Tywin Lannister etc. as THE big bad. is he sympathetic? yes absolutely, everything he does is understandable on a human level.

[@MVargic]

If Stannis won Tyrion would have been promptly executed. Nothing villainous about basic self-preservation

[@laura-ann.0726]

Euron Greyjoy and Ramsey Bolton are purely and irredeemably evil - Emperor Palpatine/Sauron/Morgoth level evil. Ser Davos, Ser Barristan, Sam Tarley, Jon Snow, Brianne of Tarth, Tommon Lannister (and the other younger children in the story), they're the good guys. Most of the rest of the cast occupy a vast spectrum of shades-of-grey personality traits. Tyrion would be a good guy if most of his own family hadn't sh*t on him mercilessly his whole life. Sandor Clegane would probably be a more honorable man if his brother Gregor hadn't abused him so much. The point of the whole series is to illustrate how the desire for power and wealth can corrupt people.

[@frankvandorp2059]

"is he a villain? yes absolutely, defending Joffrey and King's Landing against Stannis proves this." There are a lot of villainous things he does, but this is in no way one of them. I understand you would have liked Stannis to win, but Tyrion isn't a villain just because he caused something to happen that you didn't like.

[@Jem1381]

this is a villanous thing, he's knowingly defending the unrightful king from the throne when the rightful king is invading and he knows this - i dont see how this isnt villainous, and yes there are plenty of other examples, such as when he eggs on Young Griff to invade Westeros early for his own pleasure. However, he's defending his family so its understandable on a human level, i can sympathise but it doesnt take away from the fact this is a villainous action. Additionally, i loved the battle of the blackwater, i love the plot that comes out of it and i wouldnt change what Tyrion did because it makes sense for his character, the chain is an amazing defense strategy, however it doesnt take away from the fact he is knowingly defending the city from the rightful king as a pretender sits the throne. Originally i never thought of this as a villainous thing, but the more i think about it the more i come to the conclusion that this is a villanous act and i cant rationalise it not being villainous, even though its completely understandable.

[@Jem1381]

@@MVargic if Tyrion went to Stannis before the battle he wouldnt have been killed. Stannis is just, that is his entire character - there are plenty of scenarios where Stannis doesnt execute Tyrion and Tyrion would know this

[@Dadecorban]

The blackmailer was literally threatening his life. There's no reason to believe he was chopped up alive. So.....he had a man killed that was going to kill him. It's kind of not that big of a deal.

[@dee-taylor]

Where the story is now, I think Jorah and Tyrion are on an entertwined redemption arc. Penny and Brown Ben will act as the angel and devil on his shoulders and I think he'll choose Penny (the angel) and this will show Jorah redemption in possible.

[@hi-ls6lt]

Jorah has been lusting after someone since they were 13/14. How exactly can you redeem that?

[@matthewparker9276]

Tyrion is a villain. Not the antagonist, nor evil or necessarily a bad person, but a villain. Someone who can be blamed, however unjustifiably, for the misfortune in the world.

[@jfaria1548]

he helped bringing down Daenerys in the end, for that, I will always love him!!!!!

[@EarnestTargenfyre]

He is! In my personal opinion he is the real villain of the TV show. He is responsible for Dany's death and also tricked Jon Snow which led to his banishment.

[@aegorbittersteel2154]

You know who is definitely a villain Bloodraven no matter how much he pretends it's all for greater good a Very wise man has a saying "When in doubt blame Bloodraven"

[@JohnBainbridge0]

Me, whenever the Game of Thrones Theme Plays: ♫ Dinklage, Peter Dinklage, Peter Dinklage, Peter Dinklage... ♫

[@Karmaswrld]

Almost everyone in ASOIAF is a villain one way or another that’s why the books are so good

[@christophertracy7136]

What do U think The Dragon Queen will do in Winds of Winter? I think that book ends with Queen Daenerys arriving at Dragonstone with all 3 dragons!

[@mankytoes]

Everyone, in story and in the fanbase, seems to ignore the really dark move he made in defending the city in the Battle of the Blackwater. Not unleashing wildfire against Stannis' tropes, or trapping them with the chain, but killing hundreds of his own men who were aboad the boats he sent to meet Stannis' ships. He sent them like lambs to the slaughter, to an almost certain firey death, merely to avoid causing Stannis' side too much suspicion. And the need for this is questionable. We know Imry Florent was a reckless commander. And would not meeting Stannis with a fleet have been that suspicious? Everyone seemed to know they were completely outmatched, and navies are incredibly expensive. It seems quite reasonable to me that they would simply sail their fleet upriver and focus on other methods of stopping Stannis- projectiles and such.

[@marlyndonnelly2206]

Thank you!

[@tomislavcehajic9642]

Jamie is my favorit Lannister from books 3-5 and have by far best of all pov characters best pov chapters and so funny

[@dyent]

I wouldn't say Tyrion is a villain. He's a product of his upbringing, but he usually has good intentions and has repeatedly shown the capacity to learn, change and acknowledge when he's wrong. It's only when pushed to anger induced madness that he went against what he'd been taught was the right thing.

[@Bargadiel]

I appreciate the color coding in your thumbnails.

[@gregcampwriter]

He's a pragmatist in a world that mocks ideas, but he does have ideals, and he'd have utterly to lose himself to lose those.

[@theelectricprince8231]

He is not remotely pragmatic. What is pragmatic about protecting Sansa against Joffery, saving Catelyn, helping Bran or saving Jorah? Tyrion tragedy is that he is seen as a monster but is among the most empathetic POV characters.

[@gregcampwriter]

@@theelectricprince8231 You didn't read past my first comma, I see.

[@theelectricprince8231]

@@gregcampwriter having empathy is not idealist. Having morality for not make you idealistic.

[@tookaville5813]

Hes a good guy born into a villianous family. Doesnt make him a bad guy.