Was the Red Wedding Foreshadowed?

[@mankytoes]

I just re-read, and one important misdirect which I'd completely forgotten about is there is a whole chapter based around Robb's next moves after the wedding, how they're going to take back the North from the Ironborn, all the tactics and challenges, it really gets you hyped for that plotline, the desire among the Northmen for bloody revenge.

[@smallbudoo]

Robb would have lost that tbh. Attacking most Caitlin is just not happening and Riverun would be gone in a month. Robb lost the war when he gave Theon away

[@douglaswolfen7820]

I've often thought that in ASOIAF, every character is written as if they're the protagonist of their own story. They fully expect to survive, to progress through their character arc, and to fulfill any prophecies or expectations. So they'll have plans, and plot arcs, and alliances set up, even if G.R.R. knows that some other character is about to stick a sword through them in the very next chapter

[@MCreedon34]

​@smallbudoo breaking his wedding pact with the Freys was one of the biggest factors but also I wonder what would've happened had he not sent Theon to negotiate with his father on the iron islands

[@curranfrank2854]

@@MCreedon34 Considering Theon supposedly killing Bran and Rickon was a huge factor in him sleeping with and then marrying Jeyne, it's pretty significant. Although of course the main mistake was breaking his pact with the Freys

[@JYT256]

I loved that Walder Frey, when giving bread and salt for guestright, slips in a "mayhaps" (mayhaps a sausage, I think was the line). It ties back to the game that Big and Little Walder played in winterfell, The Lord of the Crossing.

[@belladoran222]

Good catch there.

[@alilweeb7684]

Yoooo i never realized this

[@dellavonta187]

Mind blown

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

GRRM, you absolute magnificent bastard...

[@EL-ISS]

The Lord of the Crossing game was in ACOK, then later on in ASOS when Rob and Cat arrived at the twins Cat asks for bread and salt to which Walder replies: "Food, heh. A loaf of bread, a bite of cheese, *mayhaps* a sausage." It wasn't until my third reread of the books that I noticed it after having delved more into the lore and are scrutinized the books more. Walder was definitely using the rules of the game to relieve himself of guest rights. There's a lot of little details in the books that I completely missed that are like golden nuggets when reading inbetween the lines, it took me a lot longer to finish the series but I found a lot more subtle hints. GRRM is a genius when it comes to planting the seeds of what eventually become notable events. It gave a whole new meaning to his "gardening" style of writing for me. Note: also find it humorous that "The Lord of the Crossing" is basically a medieval version of "Simon Says" which traces its roots back to ancient Rome.

[@Levacque]

The three Catelyn chapters preceding the wedding are probably the most tense and foreboding segments until we read of the Bolton occupation of Winterfell. They are well worth reading for the sake of studying how to build tension over time.

[@Levacque]

A detail about Duskendale that Robert omitted is that Roose cleverly hides his responsibility for it, allowing Robb to assume that Robett Glover made that foolish decision on his own. Robb's fury with the Glovers is, if anything, the first glaring example of Roose' treachery, a direct contradiction of what we as the audience know to be the truth if we remembered from one book earlier. (There are a lot of "R" names in that paragraph 😅)

[@MCreedon34]

Robert, Rob, Robbett alone is like what the haha

[@simonesalvatore9345]

In hindsight, when you re-read the books it’s honestly kind of funny how blatantly telegraphed the Red Wedding was all the way through ACOK and ASOS, in comparison to the show where it comes right the fuck out of nowhere. Roose Bolton outright says “let’s go wolf hunting 👀” and Arya’s all like “hmmm whatever could this mean 🤔”

[@pcharl01]

I haven't ever rewatched the series so most of the foreshadowing is not there, but they did show Roose allowing Jamie to continue on to KL.

[@JLchevz]

even in AGOT when some Freys are in winterfell, they're playing a game called "the lord of the crossing" and everything is forshadowed there lol EDIT nvm it's in ACOK I thought it was in AGOT

[@darkphoenix2745]

​@@pcharl01Wasn't Tywin writting a letter for either the Freys or Boltons during his meeting with Cercei to talk about the inheritance of The Rock? I always though that at least.

[@Bodharas]

Except when Roose lets Jamie go. I'm on a rewatch and can't believe how obvious that was when watching it the first time.

[@mysteryman4013]

Yes, the red wedding was foreshadowed, love your content. Cat foreshadowed the red wedding when talking to Robb many times. I believe the first was when she found out that he denied Walders girls for marriage. Other times was when she told him to ask for bread and wine so they could be protected under hospitality rule

[@JohnTorres1987]

Or the house of the undying. Or patchface. Or the ghost of highheart. Or Tywin turning down Balon for help because he has his own plan. Or that Roose let Jaime go. Or that Roose went wolf hunting after he finds out about the wedding of Robb and Jeyne. Or when Roose lies over and over about sacking and putting a castle to the sword and torch in the name of robb and telling 1/3 of his footman to go to duskendale to sack it in Robb’s name and Tywin knew exactly when and where they would he so they couldn’t retreat. Many others.

[@mysteryman4013]

@@JohnTorres1987 very much so. It’s interesting, he did point out hindsight is 20/20 but either way there most definitely was foreshadowing 😆

[@IainCiplinski]

​@@mysteryman4013it's only ever in hindsight we see foreshadowing, otherwise it's plot.

[@ShadeoftheEvening]

All great comments. I think it's time for a re read. You'd think I'd read them enough by now 😁🐦‍⬛ I married a man with last name McDonald, and weirdly, so did my best friend. Her husband told me to never eat Campbell's soup. I didn't know why. I think George got this idea from that actual history. Y'all know how much he does that🤷 he's such a great writer. See, I forgot about the wolves. Need a reboot

[@JohnTorres1987]

@@ShadeoftheEvening I see what you did there

[@vibechecker3168]

It was foreshadowed but mostly in a way that you don’t see it coming. Freys and westerlanders and Boltons moving around in the background that didn’t look like much when we were focused on robb’s badass revenge story that we didn’t know until the knives came out.

[@assortmentofpillsbutneverb3756]

Yeah half the video points are lines that could reference anything without knowing the end point. This is not a dig. The other half is foreshadowing and the reinforcing catch all points are great once the reader reaches hindsight

[@SingingSealRiana]

It compleatly depends on how careful a reader you are, it is heavely foreshadowed, but so expertly, that most hints only point to something being about to happen but not what, and the what clues only adding up in retrospective. Everyone and their mother should have known, that walder was up to something, what made the red wedding shocking though was how extream it was through breaking the one single rule of safety....so yeah, I waited for the whole thing to come crashing down hard for quite a long while, but just the way it did was shocking anyway.... Something was obviously going to go wrong at that wedding

[@Wunderturd2]

​@@SingingSealRiana Starks that follow their hearts and break oaths, especially in marriage, seem doomed to bad ends. Or tragedy after tragedy. But tragic ends for decent people who have honor, integrity and compassion and a sense of duty.

[@kierantohill1264]

You forgot my favorite example! As they’re entering the twins, they’re greeted by Ryman Frey, who says to his guests, “if you would follow me, my father awaits.” Rymans father Stevron is *dead* . He died fighting for Robb at the battle of Oxcross. And it’s not even a super small detail that only hardcore fans would know. They literally talk about Stevrons death in a previous chapter in that book. Ryman is outright telling the Starks and the reader that Robb is off to meet his dead father

[@kuroneko3837]

Damn

[@irusia1574]

That's genius, I've just read the red wedding chapter (my first read) And when Ryman says "my father awaits" I thought it was done unintentionally, "father" instead of "grandfather", but now... I think you're right

[@natpska]

Whaaaaat… My mind is blown now…. You are right!

[@Dinglehoppers779]

I took that more as it had been scripted, and the part Ryman plays was intended for Stevron, whose father is Walder. So if Stevron said "My father awaits" and they met Walder it would be correct. But Stevron's death was unexpected and they didn't have time to "rehearse" a new script.

[@dechasrisen4783]

The burning of Winterfell is the big one for me. Ramsay takes the castle from the Greyjoys, yet the boys find it burned, and then Theon turns out to have been captured and to be in the Dreadfort - the Boltons' betrayal seems clear then.

[@deggbag]

there’s also when Arya meets the Ghost of High Heart - “a raging river and a woman that was a fish…dead with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, I woke from terror.”.

[@fransmith3255]

At the red wedding (in the book) I knew the Starks were on very unfriendly grounds, and expected them not to be allowed to leave it freely, fully expected them to, perhaps have to fight their way out of the wedding or end up imprisoned, but their death, particularly the open callousness of it, was still a surprise.

[@richspeck8932]

Bran was glad for Robb's victory, but disquieted as well. He remembered what Osha had said the day that his brother had led his army out of Winterfell. He's marching the wrong way, the wildling woman had insisted.

[@mil_enrama]

I'm re-reading Storm of Swords now and there's definitely a lot of foreshadowing. Especially in the Tyrion chapter at the small council meeting where he realises that Tywin is planning some way of getting rid of the starks ("soke battles are won with the pen") and thinks it's curious that Tywin is unconcerned with the Westerlings' apparent betrayal. And then of course there's Catelyn pointing out that the Freys will feel gravely insulted by Rob.

[@alexjones1027]

I distinctly remember a sense of mounting dread reading up to the red wedding, all hope that our 'hero's' might prevail being slowly stripped away until by the time the inevitable happened, I wasn't even surprised.

[@AnthonyDGreen]

I was impressed at my own surprise at this while watching the show. I'd heard from folks who'd read the books that there was a "Red Wedding" and that it was coming but not what it was specifically. And because Joffrey's wedding was getting so much attention I assumed that was it so I didn't even give much though to Robb's wedding until about the time Catelyn figured it out. I love the the fandom kept quiet so long to let me have that genuine shock. I'm trying to remain as ignorant as possible of whatever Blood & Cheese refers to in order to repeat this experience in House of the Dragon Season 2. Sadly this has meant avoiding your latest live streams as it seems like every stream has a question or two that strays back to Rhaenyra and Daemon and the Greens and the Blacks and I'm just trying to make it another year in ignorance :D

[@chrisa84]

You hit the nail on the head, as usual. I could tell something was going to happen by how nice and forgiving Waldur was acting.

[@jonathanfaber3291]

I also love in hindsight that the food and players are awful because Frey wasn’t gonna waste food on future dead men, and the players are bad because they’re not bards at all, but until it happens you just think Frey’s being a rat bastard

[@nunyabiznes33]

Rat king?

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

@@nunyabiznes33 A rat king, eating pies?

[@mbryson2899]

I don't think he was really a "rat bastard." Walder Frey was a man looking out for his family's interests. What Robb did to them shamed and robbed from their house. Robb broke the rules, and so therefore Robb was no longer protected by the rules. Robb got exactly what he had earned. Robb may have been a kid, but Robb was not _behaving_ as just a kid...he was eagerly playing a man's game.

[@urthofthenewsun8465]

@@mbryson2899 As a noble house, the Starks rank considerably higher than the Freys. The Freys are considered an opportunistic and upstart house by the other families in Westeros. Although their family is large, Freys never claim to be descended from any notable heroes or conquerors. They’ve only been elevated to nobility due to their ability to collect tolls. Breaking an oath to Walder Frey was dishonourable, but most would consider it a minor infraction. Walder has failed to honour his duty multiple times by not raising his banners when called upon in times of war. He basically extorted Cat and Robb before letting them cross. The Starks by comparison are universally respected, even by their enemies. They’re a well-bred family with legends that date back to pre-recorded history. In this setting, the Freys murdering the Starks would basically be like peasants murdering a royal family.

[@mbryson2899]

@@urthofthenewsun8465 Robb was a proven oathbreaker. As such he proved himself unworthy of the Stark name. You see it as peasants against royalty. I saw it as nobility behaving lower than a peasant. Robb got what he earned.

[@AndrewK23777]

Great job IDG & HoW , the Red Wedding was foreshadowed many times in many ways in the text , well done highlighting the examples in this vid. Thats one thing in hindsight and especially when rereading for me is noticing the staggering amount of foreshadowing GRRM uses in ASoIaF. As seeming at first glance / the first read a humorous near throw away line from the Greatjon joking about catching Twyin with his breeches down or Cat feeling "as though her heart had turned to stone" being desensitized from her experiences / the horrors of war. Just a couple of many many examples we come across over and over. GRRM is brilliant the way he foreshadows and he does so , so often and so well. As i said especially on a reread (obviously easier knowing what to look for & what is to come in the narrative) really becomes noticeable GRRM's well done and prolific use of foreshadowing in ASoIaF.

[@andrew-hf9fl]

Possibly the single most devastating chapter of any book ever written. Ned Starks beheading is brutal, and shocking, but this is far more heart-rending.

[@gottenm9106]

you didn't exaggerated at all

[@Levacque]

I remember being completely sickened when Arya, in the following chapter, saw the pavilions in which the Stark soldiers were drinking collapse and you know they are being murdered too.

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

"Ser Ryman mounted up again, pulling Petry Pimple up behind him. 'If you follow me, my father awaits'. He turned the palfrey's head back toward the twins." Ser Ryman's father was Strevron Frey, dead after the Battle of Oxcross.

[@BIastwave.]

Holy shit, I never noticed that. Amazing catch

[@Levacque]

That's so very good. I consider myself unnecessarily well-versed in the Frey family tree, but that simple linguistic slip by GRRM got right past me on two reads. I'm in your debt for pointing that out.

[@simontaylor2143]

Although it's implied he would have recovered from his wound had he not been poisoned by a relative

[@andromidius]

Nice. Its one of those small details that might genuinely have been a mistake but still fits so well with the story. Freys are known to even play a game about lying and tricking people, so its safe to assume all Freys are capable of convincing dishonesty. One slipping up by saying father instead of grandfather makes so much sense.

[@pushista9322]

Nor did Catelyn ever learned Freys' family tree. During the Red Wedding they had to correct her twice! So much for her respect toward and important ally. She despised them, so she badly underestimated them.

[@LoneWolfOfHouseStark1989]

Robb was like a seasoned commander in the field but outside the field of battle he showed that he was a young boy out of his depth.

[@AtakenSmith]

Like his father, he didn't know how to play the game of thrones...

[@smallbudoo]

@@AtakenSmithnah Robb just didn’t have common sense. 1. Gave away the only son of balon Greyjoy trusting the Greyjoy’s of all people to deliver Him ships. 2. Not telling Edmure of his plans was just plan idiotic and Edmure gets punished for it.

[@AtakenSmith]

@@smallbudoo I agree with the 1. One, it was naive to let him go and believe he will come back to help him. The 2. He actually told him to stay put and hold the fort. He Couldn't risk the plan being found out.

[@smallbudoo]

@@AtakenSmith Telling Edmure wouldn’t leak it. He’s competent enough to atleast tell him orders to stay at Riverun no matter what happens.

[@AtakenSmith]

@@smallbudoo I have a very good but long answer for you, it's your decision if you read it. It's from a forum.: "Before Robb leaving for the Westerlands, Edmure had pressured him to free the riverlords to take back their lands, so Edmure only has garrison, and not a true army to defy Tywin. “And whose doing is that?” Catelyn snapped at her brother. It had been at Edmure’s insistence that Robb had given the river lords leave to depart after his crowning, each to defend his own lands. Ser Marq Piper and Lord Karyl Vance had been the first to go. Lord Jonos Bracken had followed, vowing to reclaim the burnt shell of his castle and bury his dead, and now Lord Jason Mallister had announced his intent to return to his seat at Seagard, still mercifully untouched by the fighting. Robb at this point does not have the plan to lure Tywin in conceived yet, he wants to take the Golden Tooth and neutralize Stafford's army before it's ready to march. “By now Robb is at the Golden Tooth,” Theon said. “Once it falls, he’ll be through the hills in a day. Lord Tywin’s host is at Harrenhal, cut off from the west. The Kingslayer is a captive at Riverrun. Only Ser Stafford Lannister and the raw green levies he’s been gathering remain to oppose Robb in the west. Ser Stafford will put himself between Robb’s army and Lannisport, which means the city will be undefended when we descend on it by sea." Robb ends up by passing the Golden tooth and after the battle of Oxcross, Robb starts to take several castles, and at this moment I imagine that he realized that the Westerlands, were defenseless, and started to plan how to draw Tywin. And then he starts to go for the gold, raids and cattle. The only mystery is how your brother reached him. Our forces still hold the stronghold at the Golden Tooth, and they swear he did not pass.” The dwarf gave an irritated shrug. “Well, Robb Stark is my father’s bane. Joffrey is mine. Tell me, what do you feel for my kingly nephew?” “My lords,” he said gravely, “we have had a message from His Grace, with both good news and ill. He has won a great victory in the west, shattering a Lannister army at a place named Oxcross, and has taken several castles as well. He writes us from Ashemark, formerly the stronghold of House Marbrand.” It is now that it get's weird, Robb is sending his commands, and informing his vassals of his next target. We know that Mormont is leading the stolen cattle to the riverlands, and yet we are told that he cannot be reached, and he also does not inform of his plans. If you want to blame Robb this is the moment he should inform about his intentions. “Robb should know of this at once,” she said. “Do we know where he is?” “At last word he was marching toward the Crag, the seat of House Westerling,” said Maester Vyman. “If I dispatched a raven to Ashemark, it may be that they could send a rider after him.” Edmure at this point is starting his plan to deal with Tywin, he is commanding Roose to take Harenhal, but he does not try to inform Robb, he even expect Robb to come and help him, even though he can't be reached and never talked about such plan and is now marching in the oposite direction, Tywin still in the south and has not started his march. Edmure is going out of his way to seek battle. They were all her father’s bannermen, lords of the Trident. Most had left Riverrun before she had, to defend their own lands. If they were here again, it could only mean that Edmure had called them back. Gods save us, it’s true, he means to offer battle to Lord Tywin. “Can Robb be reached by raven?” “He’s in the field, my lady,” Ser Desmond replied. “The bird would have no way to find him. And then Edmure starts his blunder, he still does not have his army with him, they are still gathering, Robb never get knews of this, as far as he know Edmure only has his garrison to hold Riverrun as he was ordered. Edmure is going against his command and going to the offensive. “Cat,” he said unhappily, “Lord Tywin is coming-” “He is making for the west, to defend his own lands. If we close our gates and shelter behind the walls, we can watch him pass with safety.” “You do not have the strength to meet the Lannisters in the field,” she said bluntly. “When all my strength is marshaled, I should have eight thousand foot and three thousand horse,” Edmure said. It's not Robb who has to tell Edmure anything, is Edmure that has to tell Robb about his intentions, his plan even depends on Robb helping him. Robb’s won his battles against worse odds,” Edmure replied, “and I have a plan. You’ve forgotten Roose Bolton. Lord Tywin defeated him on the Green Fork, but failed to pursue. When Lord Tywin went to Harrenhal, Bolton took the ruby ford and the crossroads. He has ten thousand men. I’ve sent word to Helman Tallhart to join him with the garrison Robb left at the Twins-” "Bolton needs Frey’s men, and Ser Helman’s as well. I’ve commanded him to retake Harrenhal.” “That’s like to be a bloody business.” “Yes, but once the castle falls, Lord Tywin will have no safe retreat. My own levies will defend the fords of Red Fork against his crossing. If he attacks across the river, he’ll end as Rhaegar did when he tried to cross the Trident. If he holds back, he’ll be caught between Riverrun and Harrenhal, and when Robb returns from the west we can finish him for good and all.” "

[@billdenny9599]

Makes me want to re-read the books again. I've lost count home many times I've read them at this point but content like yours makes me want to do it again. Lol well done Robert 👏

[@danyf.1442]

I remember the sense of foreboding, heaviness, uneasiness, dread during the first pages (the constant rain, etc...), the many times the guest right importance was mentioned and then...the biggest WTF moment. I went back and read again those pages at least three times, especially the part when Cat feels the chainmail under Roose Bolton' s sleeve, the Rains of Castamere start playing...I genuinely thought I misread. I had the bad luck of first reading the chapter close to Christmas...completely ruined my holidays, not joking, it put me in a bad mood for days.

[@cat_alyst6306]

I know how you feel!!! I felt the same when I got to the end of Fire and Blood. My heart was legit broken for days 😂

[@d00mf00d]

Are you joking about a book ruining your holiday? That's pretty immature

[@jay-1800]

Cat doesn’t feel the chainmail on Roose in the books. He had already excused himself by that point and showed up later to stab Robb. I forget which one but one of the Frey’s went to close the door when she grabbed his arm she felt the mail and slapped him

[@danyf.1442]

@@jay-1800 Damn mixing up books and show lol! In my defense it was many years ago and I haven't read again that chapter since.

[@danyf.1442]

@@d00mf00d I was not joking at all, it was already a very difficult time for me and reading that chapter in that moment really affected me.

[@BigBalvin]

I would also add Catelyn calling out how poor the musicians not knowing they weren't musicians rather just sildiers

[@Lossandthepanda]

I've never actually caught that Vargo Hoat detail before. Ironic that such a brutal and horrific man was trying to save Robb's life, even if he didn't know it

[@Morfe02]

He save Jaime In some way 😂

[@braedenh6858]

"GRRM writes Catelyn as one of the cleverest characters..." Me, remembering the times Catelyn: - treated Bran like a turd - captured Tyrion and started a war - considered Littlefinger harmless and trustworthy - got Ned to go along with Littlefinger - released Jaime Just yanking your chain 😄, I love your content, thanks for the video to kick off the weekend!

[@djokealtena2538]

Add to that not raising the alarm and inform 5 lords like Ned told her to. Negotiating a ridiculous deal with Walder. Basically declaring for Renly when she rode to that meeting... Catelyn is dangerously foolish and a bad Mother to boot.

[@davidevens2954]

She's not dumb, but she's very impulsive and somewhat less intelligent than she thinks she is. As her PoV chapters are, well, from her point of view, she can come across to the reader as being the smartest person in the room, but she rarely is (unless the other person in the room is her sister).

[@rustygray5058]

Yeah, Catelyn just casually strolls from one disaster to the next. And even as she claims she is doing it all to protect her children, as readers we actually know that each foolish move she makes puts them in more danger. Her kidnapping Tyrion has the feeling of the Star Wars alternate ending meme - I can totally see Tyrion not noticing her, followed by "and they all lived happily ever after."

[@nelsonerivan]

Love your videos so much, man. You're one of the few creators who keeps things fresh and makes me not want to give up on the series

[@ryankelly1826]

Your content is my go to cooking listens, love it my friend, keep it up

[@shelleyj3704]

At the beginning of the wedding chapter, Cat's head is pounding, because the band is playing so badly - why? because they're not musicians; they're a band of crossbowmen. The terrible music becomes like a soundtrack to the foreboding evening before the slaughter.

[@yondie491]

I love talking to my history fans about the show, because quite a few of us saw The Red Wedding as being where *A* decision would be made coming quite a ways off. In the same way that (at least the first half of) GoT has a lot of basis on the War of the Roses... The Red Wedding was simply Treason of the Long Knives (which is vaguely quasi-history... but whether it's true is irrelevant... it's known to history-studiers). And it was incredibly well done.

[@schmalzilla1985]

Yes, in the house of undying, and then in a Bran chapter when the Freys and the kids of Winterfell played Lord of the Crossing. At the end of the red wedding, old Walder Frey said, "you didn't say mayhaps". So while the Bran chapter didn't outright foreshadow the red wedding, it did foreshadow the Freys betrayal and how you played his game. Also all the marriages to houses in the Westerlands was a huge red flag, they should've taken the castle after crossing, he was already compromised.

[@SirSoup3]

Walder Frey also slips in a mayhaps when he is giving his speech to Robb right before the betrayal

[@schmalzilla1985]

@@SirSoup3 I didn't notice it. Sneaky old fart.

[@OberynPinkViper]

For me, it's one of the hardest chapters to read through again once you're aware of what's going to happen at The Twins. Probably the most shocking and traumatising POV chapter in the series...so far. Great work IDG, I absolutely love your channel and the content you provide.

[@Pottatow]

You knew that Robb was going to get hit with a major loss, but the brutality of the red wedding is whats shocking. I imagined him being betrayed in a battle or assassins in the night.

[@warsamadembil9963]

The woods witch from Arya Pov chapter also prophesized the red wedding if I remember correctly.

[@rdkieran]

As someone at the age of 30 who hasn't read the books since the last one came out around when I turned 20, this is a nice video to remind myself of how much I loved those books, 1 third of my life ago.

[@rdkieran]

The latter seasons of the TV show has been how I remember the series for the last few years, and it's startling to suddenly remember that it really actually was very good

[@AodhanBeag]

Started re-watching GOT again and I’m up to S3 ep 6 building right up to red wedding so this was timed perfectly to build it up more….I know what’s going to happen but yet I’m still anxious about it

[@jamminow]

in cat 6, asos, walder welcomes robb and his forces to the twins and in one of his monologues, he slips in the word "mayhaps", which is a reference to the game that the frey twins at winterfell played called "lord of the crossing" where the aim was to slip in the word mayhaps without the other person knowing in order to "betray" the other person. didn't see this here, thought it was really cool when i read asoiaf after already having known about the red wedding through the show.

[@vortex_1336]

Danaerys literally had a vision of the Red Wedding.

[@mattyboyb523]

What an amazing episode of the series. Quite possibly my favorite. I’m a non book reader so this was stunning to me. I was floored, 2nd only to the beheading of Ned Stark. That’s what hooked me in. I knew I was watching something amazing.

[@julieloucalcote1368]

Oh but you must read the books! They are the best literary fiction ever written. Truly you will not be disappointed. The books flow so well you will be finished before you realize it!

[@jmprues]

Robb’s biggest mistake was letting Theon go and not separating Bolton forces

[@smallbudoo]

And also not telling Edmure of his plans.

[@TheWorstType]

I remember reading this and I couldnt identify it, but I was feeling mounting dread - given how much Catelyn had warned Robb about Lord Fray, given the huge insult this was, and given the ease of the "new treaty" - I was like..."why do I feel like there is something bad going to happen" and then realized after later reads that Catelyn is literally pointing them out, but SO deftly that you think she's just nervous but the signs are real and SO subtle. What a brilliant piece of writing - amazing video and channel!!

[@Hochspitz]

Yes, the clues were there but since Davos didn't understand Patchface and neither did I, I had forgotten about it. The only real clue we get in the show other than Mel's leach was Roose letting Jaime go and we don't find out about Roose's marriage until the red wedding itself. Dany's visions don't happen, Arya isn't with Roose at Harrenhal (I have to say that this was probably the best change the show made) and Duskendale didn't happen. So the shock was indeed far more visceral in the show.

[@SingingSealRiana]

But even there you know to expect a double cross from Walder

[@MrOP-jw1zp]

12:20 I would like to object. She first completely fell for Littlefinger's lie with the dagger, then despite Tyrion convincingly disproving Littlefinger's lie, rides on through the Vale getting many followers killed by the Mountain Clans and then even loses Tyrion to a trick despite the war. Tyrion completely outplays her once she tricks him by stating she's going to Winterfell. Afterwards, she dooms The North's cause by freeing Jaime. She may not be incompetent perse, but she takes incompetent decisions based on delusions.

[@swaffelkonijn5166]

Though I literally threw the book across the room when I read this scene I'm still happy I read it rather than watched it in GoT for the first time.

[@mbryson2899]

I read it before I saw it or heard about it. Mr. Martin is a genius and a master, nothing short of. He put us right in the shoes of those who saw but didn't see, heard but didn't hear. Amazing!

[@GreylanderTV]

Before listening: _did we not see it coming?_ I sure did. Maybe not the particulars, but the setup leaving them entirely at the mercy of the Freys? Rob & Lady Stark's acceptance of the terms without sufficient precautions absolutely drove me batty leading up to the denouement. Once the gates were open and his men were entering, they should have had orders that at least equal numbers of Rob's men (vs Frey men) were in the castle(s) with him at all times. Or Rob should have ignored the plans for the wedding, passed all the way through with his men and then held the wedding, etc, in the outdoors on the other side.

[@kadaverf]

I read the books after the series, so I knew. But man, did I still feel betrayed, crying for the losses whilst having hoped it might turn out differently (I always do so when rereading a story, it makes it marvellous each and every time). These books are so well written, as are your videos. Thanks and all the best from Holland

[@alialmuhanna4938]

2:49 I’d say “an overt and clear” reason. Walder Frey, I believe, would’ve turned on Robb anyway. But with breaking the marriage pact, Frey now had plausible deniability for premeditated betrayal.

[@Jen7867]

As always, great video. Loved it, Robert!!

[@dgtlrn]

Frey soldiers stomping all over a stark banner at the end of ACoK, and the shift to horror writing techniques in the chapters prior to the boom doom boom were huge indicators, but you are correct that they indicated only something was happening, but not what.

[@MrARock001]

It's interesting that even after all they'd been through, neither Catlyn nor Rob were ruthless enough to promise anything to Frey, but then cross the river and betray Frey first.

[@jay-1800]

Don’t forget Robb told Roose to give the impression that the whole northern host was moving towards him. Roose chose to march through the night to try and catch the Lannister’s by surprise. He chose to give Tywin battle (Green Fork) which resulted in men loyal to house stark dying. Lord Hornwood died at Greenfork which enables Ramsey to wed her and kill her. The implications of Roose telling Robb Jaime Lannister sends his regards are going to be interesting. As Brienne is pretty much taking Jaime to see Lady Stoneheart.

[@julieloucalcote1368]

Good catch on the Hornwood bit! Never thought of it that way!

[@pyrho1]

THANK YOU ROBERT FOR BRINGING US SUCH GREAT CONTENT! it fills the void left by the absence of Winds

[@samuelleask1132]

Brilliant video guys! More of these please!

[@mrjustinrubin]

Very well done.

[@AeternusNox.]

To those of us who didn't read the books when the show came out, it's kind of hard to pick up on this stuff. Now you mention it, I'd have to watch the show again to look.

[@Rian-zf7ye]

The first and only time I chucked a book across a room. I was so shook 😂

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

Good to know I wasn't alone in that! 😂

[@julieloucalcote1368]

Me too!

[@humzakhalid7902]

the ghost of highheart talking about the "clanger" and how the saddest thing was the little bells as in from jinglebells crown and the amount of times walder frey said "may haps" directly to robb alluding to the freys game of lord of the crossing

[@thehonestaspy102]

You have such a wonderful voice Robert, you should seriously consider going into narration! Another excellent video though, I'm thoroughly enjoying this particular series and when I re-read A Storm of Swords recently I picked up on all of these hints that I had overlooked the first time.

[@dwaynechang4124]

Really love your new videos they really good and informative

[@laurencepemberton6717]

To add to this great video, my favourite bit of foreshadowing is when Big Walder and Little Walder Frey play 'Lord of the Crossing' with Bran and Rickon at Winterfell in ACOK. As a children's game of oath-breaking and casting players into rivers, it surely is one of the darker bits of foreshadowing we get. Frey also refers to the game before Robb takes the guest right.

[@johngillespie318]

I remember reading that chapter for the first time. The dread had been building for so many previous chapters. Had to put the book down a few times to get through it.

[@yellowfellow7246]

"Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens." Tywin Lannister to his son Tyrion, the moment he was penning the letters that would lead up to the Red Wedding.

[@lawv804]

Given how seriously the Starks took oaths, it was clear that Robb breaking his oath would have terrible consequences.

[@matteoruffo4633]

Dany's House of the Undying chapter in ACOK made it pretty clear that it was coming

[@pushista9322]

12:25 Oh my God, I can't believe you said that Martin had written Catelyn to be one of the smartest people in the books. Literally, she was supposed to see through Tywin's plotting as early as Jeyne' sudden appearance in the picture. Before that, she should have never touched Jaime, for he was not her prisoner, Rob explicitly forbade her to even discuss his release, and the whole plan was funded on a stupid assumption that Brienne by herself could deliver a dangerous and precious prisoner to the capital through the war-ridden lands. Yet before that, she should have followed Ned's instructions and returned to Winterfell to prepare his bannermen for war and make sure Theon doesn't escape. She literally brought it all upon Ned and Robb. Plus, she had sent Sansa and Arya to live with a family of murderers (to the best of her knowledge). The whole point of Catelyn's constant suspicions is that she never acts upon them. Instead, she follows her random impulses, estranging Robb, Edmure and pretty much everyone else by her blunt and annoying remarks. Even as she is minutes from being killed she has no clue that it had been a Tywin's trap. Instead, she tries to trade "a son for son", never bothering to learn Freys family tree (she had been told Jinglebell was Lord Walder's grandson just a couple of days before!)

[@jonathonjones2611]

Not so much Red Wedding foreshadowing, but I had a sense Robb was going to meet a grim end because he didn't have pov chapters. Rickon is the only other Stark child who doesn't so if GRRM ever finishes the series it might not bode well for him either.

[@Lethalport1515]

Hi Robert. Just wanted to ask if you'd be doing episode breakdowns of the rest of the GOT seasons? I find it hard to sit and watch the episodes themselves as there's just too much going on, but I was able to grasp your episode breakdowns of the first season and other breakdowns you've done and enjoyed them. I know that it would be a big undertaking and that it's not current anymore, but I'd definitely watch them if you made them. I never really cared about spoilers for the series because it was hard for me to watch and have watched this video and other GOT/ HOTD videos you've made and only recently thought to see if you'd done breakdowns on all the seasons of GOT, only to see s1 and s7; and of course the videos on the wider world and characters of GOT. I would really be happy and thankful if you made the other seasons, but I would also understand if you do not. I will still support you either way. Thank you for the effort and time you put into all you do for us, Sammi❤

[@richardtabor8686]

"The drums were booming booming booming..." Poor GRRM...love your content and, of course, HoW!

[@ashleightompkins3200]

I sincerely envy those who went into the Red Wedding blind. Thanks to the show, I knew about it for years and I wish I had gotten the real gut punch, instead of a sense of increasing dread that came with each chapter

[@pedrokantor7972]

trust me, you don't

[@richardtabor8686]

Walder said "mayhaps" twice I believe during the chapter. I think 1 was "mayhaps a bite of cheese" or something to that effect. Ty again for the thought-provoking content.

[@loganpeters7543]

I LOVE THESE VIDEOS SO MUCH

[@soulbrother1143]

I personally believe a betrayal by lord walder frey was always gonna happen... Tywin isnt in his position by not understanding strategy, he would have understood that the twins was one of the only place an army of that size can safely cross the green fork of the trident and he would have had some other plan then depending on walder to be "late" in this war...what that plan was i think took a bit of ripening...im sure walder would have found tywin a more formidable enemy than rob stark as well as he would have found having tywins friendship more lucrative then having robs friendship.....it was only a matter of time

[@wisedude4285]

Don't forget the Ghost of High Heart prophecy that was a huge foreshadow as well! "And the saddest part was the little bells"

[@dmitc01]

There was also a green dreamer in an Arya pov chapter that also prophesied it.

[@mr.snulch]

There's another solid clue in I think Tyrion's third chapters of Storm of Swords. Just read it last night. During a small council meeting some of the lords suggest Tywin sides with the Greyjoys to beat Robb. Tywin says it's better to hold off on that because Greyjoy would want the North in return, and a better option may present itself. Tyrion's thoughts: Tyrion watched his father closely. _There's something he's not saying._ He remembered those important letters Lord Tywin had been writing, the night Tyrion had demanded Casterly Rock. _What was it he said? Some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and ravens_ ... He wondered who the "better option" was, and what sort of price he was demanding.

[@ksawerystan]

Very chilling monent from the books i remember is when brotherhood without banners refuses to take Arya to her mother, after thet spoke with the forest with in Highheart. This was the moment of realisation.

[@Jelorm2]

This is an awesome channel. Subscribed.

[@kiddbuu5178]

Leading up to it i felt like there was gonna be a problem. But i didnt expect what happened. I thought it was gonna be a fight or something like that. Not a massacre at a wedding feast.

[@wonkybiscuit2760]

The constant focus on guests right in the book made me pretty aware of what was gonna happen. Didn’t detract from the absolute tragedy it was for the story haha. Good video review :)

[@ApplePi3.]

I feel almost left out that I Did see it coming. Must have been such an amazing shock moment.

[@pcharl01]

I don't know if it's foreshadowing but one of the things I remember in GoT books (maybe the show) is when Tyrion returns from the Wall to Winterfell he is greeted with Robb unsheathing his sword. Idk if that constitutes a true violation of Guest Right since I don't remember if Tyrion was offered or asked for bread 🍞 and wine, but this is the first scene with Robb after Eddard left for KL. The first time we see Robb as Lord of Winterfell he's hostile to a guest. Everytime I think of the RW and how unjust it is, i remember this in GoT & think maybe he had it coming. The Old Gods saw to that.

[@Shelly-mz9yf]

Thank you so much ❤ with the verbally here. I'm understanding motr

[@matthewtaylor2006]

I’m hopeful that Theon’s dream is foreshadowing that Benjen is still alive. He isn’t at the feast, even though all the dead/soon to be dead Starks are.

[@ryang8915]

InDeepGeek could you make a short video explaining jaimes conversations with ilyn payne

[@Jacob-W-5570]

I think I may not be alone, in the wish that I had read the books before I'd seen the series. as to be able to read it with a clear mind. The only "good" part about the red wedding is Arya's revenge 'Winter came for house Frey' is such a strong line at that moment, and the symbolism is very strong from different pov's

[@ironforged2329]

Just read a Tyrion chapter where they were talking in the council with Tywin, Kevan, Mace, Paxter, Cersie, Pycelle, Varys, and Littlefinger. Tyrion was thinking what was his Father not saying, what are those letters he was writing that wins wars, and what are the "better options" to deal with the North. Then at the very next line, Ser Kevan said "let's move on to the wedding" such clever hint right there.

[@stefanjanjic9902]

Just reread SOS for the third time. He left so many clues to a looming disaster

[@Aerie925]

Love your takes on ASOIAF. You know Robb is likely going to die and lose the war since he backed out of his marriage deal with Walter Fray, you just don’t know how…and you don’t expect his entire army and his mother to be taken with him. Robb sealed their fates when he didn’t marry a Fray gal…and that’s what made him a bad King. He needed the alliance with the Frays yet he betrayed his own word. A good leader knows that sometimes you have to do things b/c you need the alliance…it’s politicking. Robb might have been a good warrior, but he was an awful King.

[@davidrauscher1839]

ACoK Bran 1 has some foreshadowing that’s easy to miss: when the Walders and the children of the castle are playing in the godswood they play Lord of the Crossing where anyone who means to cross the water must swear oaths in which they cleverly hide the term “mayhaps” so the lord (or lady) doesn’t catch it thus making the oath null and void allowing the crosser to attack the lord (or lady) and throw him (or her) into the water thereby installing themself as the lord/lady. Fast forward to the arrival of Robb’s army at the Twins for what will be the Red Wedding, when Cat, Edmure and Robb are brought before Lord Walder, they request the traditional offerings presented for guest right. Walder responds with acknowledging the request but says “mayhaps a sausage,” in the midst of the agreement which according to his family’s traditions, is enough to void the offer despite the tradition being the only thing acknowledged by all cultures throughout the world. As a side note, when Robb selected Roose to command his infantry and attack Tywin’s host it’s because Catelyn said it was rash to put Greatjon Umber in command since he knows no fear. Robb made a comment at that time that it’s unlikely to catch Tywin with his britches down which is obvious foreshadowing to the manner and location of his death but when Roose and the northern force attacks Tywin’s host, they signal their intent with horns which is the only reason the Lannister army is able to even present itself in a battle formation. Had Robb gone with Grestjon instead there is a good chance he wouldn’t have stopped to draw up lines, he would more likely have driven through the camp to Tywin’s tent to slay or capture him. In essence it is the earliest example of Roose’s treachery that I can think of and nobody ever talks about it. The war would have been won had Robb followed his gut.

[@Ducky-vl7mp]

Cat really messed up the whole northern campaign huh...

[@SpaceViking2000]

Rereading AF4C and I think it was Tyrion who said “nothing bad happens at weddings.” I had a proper laugh at that.

[@Bigwes5150]

At the time of watching Season 3 episode 9 “The Rains of Castamere” I hadn’t read the books but i knew it would happen. So while everyone was shocked i was laughing. After reading I noticed the plan forming in that Ayra chapter in ACOK. Best part is trying to link the actions in the castle to the battle outside from Cat’s and Ayra’s povs

[@jgr7487]

Robb marrying Jayne & Tyrion marrying Sansa would be terms of an armistice, but Tywin the genius was too fond of a flawless victory that he didn't see this way out. The Starks gain their independence; Cersey's children are recognised the King of everything south of the Neck; the Tullys are given back their lands and titles; the North must leave the War of the 5 Kings south of the Neck; the Seven Kingdoms has to keep their part in maintaining the Night's Watch. There! Peace in out time!

[@emperorpalpatine4681]

There is one chapter not long before the actual event, Tyrion in chapter, where Tywin says some stuff which makes Tyrion wonder if there is some plan he doesn’t know about. It might even be the chapter where he tells Cersei and Tyrion that they are to remarry. Just remember it’s after a meeting, and it’s Tywin and Tyrion alone.

[@prairieskye]

Really beautiful , on point presentation. I remember reading the lead up to the Red Wedding the book version. Will never forget it and the ominous buildup . The show was a sham with their portrayal. No Great Jon. Zip Northmen

[@jamesreese5565]

Another Great Video!

[@walterlivingston4596]

When i read the red wedding chapter, I threw my copy of SOS across the room! Then quickly picked it back up and continued reading.

[@adamwarlock8263]

any reader could feel that something awful was about to happen. i was scared to turn the pages

[@Michaelkayslay]

Why was the crossing so valued? How much time would be saved by not using the crossing ? Was it just a short cut or ?

[@WarKrieg]

This video filled me with dread. As a long time reader I knew most of this of course. But to see it come together like this casts the Red Wedding as... a near cosmic event. A rent in the fabric of decency so horrifying, that multiple independent entities around the world had premonitions or foreknowledge of it. As events were driving toward this horrifying conclusion, it's like alarm bells were ringing all over the channels of visions and premonitions. All this foreshadowing reinforces that dreadful but retrospective feeling of inevitability and helplessness: Robb was a dead man walking long before he stepped into that hall, and this was reflected all over the dimensions of this world that are attuned to such realities. We just couldn't see it.

[@julieloucalcote1368]

Oh I like that!

[@VivanLaMNWA]

“Was the Red Wedding foreshadowed?” Is an insanely easy question to answer.