Is Using MicroCoasters Cheating?

[@T-West]

Let's be honest: if it only cost about $619 to buy a microcoaster IRL, I'd put one in my back yard right away.

[@TheChrisD]

How long until you can come up with some microcoaster-esque exploit in AoE2?

[@johanlugthart7782]

His pacifist series contains a lot of exploits.

[@martijn9568]

The average Dutch backyard probably can't fit one 😞

[@chandir7752]

It'd be cool for like a month and then even refurbishing it won't make it fun again.

[@Hobbamok]

Dollars in game are not real dollars (anymore, thx inflation) Imagine getting a Burger with extras for five bucks in Disneyland

[@-10]

It's a good example on how knowing a game too well kind of comes at the cost of its magic. Our shared memories with this game largely came from being challenged by scenarios we struggled with, because of the game mechanics we did not fully understand. It was trial and error, exploring options and assuming certain methods worked better than others. Once you become an expert at the game, you can no longer unsee all those micro optimizations, and everything becomes easy. Even if you opt out of using micro coasters, you know a lot of other subtle tactics that make it easier. You cannot simply regress into a 'casual player' by choice to keep the standard game fresh.

[@illusionismm]

i feel that so hard, I've been playing since I was 4, played through the first game until octagon park in LL in one summer when I was 10, and played through RCT2, made custom scenarios, and made a super nice looking project park when I was 16-17, but these days, even though I know everything about the game, and I do still genuinely love the first two games (and RCT3), I can't play them anymore. I feel like I 100%'d the game and there's just nothing left to do. The magic that was there when I was little is gone and that's okay

[@MarcelVos]

This is a good point I've been thinking about. The Marcel Plays RCT series is also not doing very well in terms of views, so I think it's a bit too generic while not being entirely nostalgic either because I know too much. I might need to make them more "Marcel" and do something slightly more extreme.

[@Mr.Not.Perfect]

@@MarcelVos I really like the more realistic play in the series, so going more extreme would put me off it. But I guess if that's what most viewers want, it's what you should do.

[@mikemudrow]

@@MarcelVos that's a shame, because I really like the series, Micro coasters and all. It's like watching a master painter at work. The beauty of the art is enhanced because you know how to get more out of your park.

[@ImSquiggs]

@@MarcelVossomething worth considering is that Let’s Play content generally doesn’t do as well as specific scripted video content… not to say you shouldn’t make it, but to expect the same numbers as your tighter and more focused content isn’t reasonable, at least in my limited content-making experience.

[@SirPembertonS.Crevalius]

Cheaty? No. Cheesy? Yes. I prefer being a bit more immersed making more normal parks, but to each their own.

[@YippingFox]

I'd agree with this. It definitely isn't cheating, but it does feel like an exploit. Of course since it is just a singleplayer game, especially regarding the playthrough, there is nothing wrong with using it. Considering they allow you to have more fun with "proper" rides.

[@C.I...]

I think there should be big stat penalties when you put multiple tiny coasters of an identical design next to one another.

[@three-quartersbadger2929]

Couldn't have said this better myself. To say it another way, I might say 'irrealistic and not in the spirit of the game'. There was a channel somewhere about this game where the player only did beautiful, realistic parks that were perfectly successful, but I forgot to mark it. I look at it this way... these gams are supposed to be simulations, and if the player is benefiting from something that would never remotely happen in a real-life scenario, then it's bad design/cheese/gaming the system etc. No-one in real life would ride a coaster that lasts 10 seconds, so I disdain using that in these games. It's the biggest flaw in a game with very few flaws.

[@chompythebeast]

Exactly. Something needn't be "cheating" to be frowned upon, but on the other hand, calling everything from using glitches to simply exploiting apparently deliberate mechanics such is just silly. It's like people who call Any% speedrunners, some of the most skilled players in their respective games, "cheaters" lol. It just makes one sound ignorant or old-fashioned

[@writeordie5452]

I think the F1 thinking of "Rule of the law" and "Spirit of the law" applies here. There's clearly no cheating happening. That said, it's fully understandable why some players (especially those not into mid-maxing) don't like it. That said, who the fuck cares - Marcel's are what I want to see, they're fun, play the game the way you want to and feel like. It's not an online game affecting other players, after all.

[@GamebooAdvance]

Honestly the only problem I have with them personally is they don't look like something people would ride irl. I know this is weird to say but they feel very "video game-y" instead of something that could exist in a real park. Not a knock on you using them in your videos though, I always love your stuff

[@brewerjr9]

carnival rides aren't very big, and I've seen some small "roller coasters" in them that wouldn't be any bigger then a micro coaster.

[@nuclearcommando9729]

Usually though carnival rides are a full track though. Ive never seen any carnival rides that look like the looping or corkscrew coaster micro coasters And even then, Ive never seen more than two similar carnival coasters at the same carnival, much less right next to each other

[@planescaped]

Saying they feel video-gamey isn't weird at all. I see it used to describe these kinds of exploitative game mechanics all the time.

[@chompythebeast]

I'm pretty sure this is the consensus opinion. Having said that, when you put _hundreds_ or _thousands_ of hours into a game, who are we to judge a little indulgence, a little shaking things up, a little absolute mastery? To each their own, after all, and it's not like Marcel is using these strats in a multiplayer game to minmax and crush people or anything

[@eurovision50]

That's what I was going to say! I like the back-and-forth micro Junior Coaster, because it looks like a kids' flat ride. But the others don't look like something people would actually ride.

[@aronpuma5962]

To me, microcoasters are just part of the Marcel Vos video experience. I'm watching your playthroughs because your editing and park design and commentary all make for very entertaining, fun to watch playthroughs. I can't wait for more

[@xander1052]

Microcoasters, drowning guests and awesome coasters. the Vos e x p e r i e n c e

[@Bibibosh]

He speaks clearly and is very informative!

[@felipekersting7065]

In my opinion the problem are not the micro-coasters themselves, it is how they are used. For example, having a Shuttle Loop (or a similar design) in your park is totally fine, looks very good and is realistic. I would totally ride a Shuttle Loop and they do exist. The same goes for some other micro-designs. For me, it goes against the spirit of the game in two occasions: 1. if the design is ridiculous and nobody would ever ride that in real-life, like those designs that barely get out of the station. 2. if you spam a lot of the exact same design, because in real-life that would most likely not attract more guests nor make you rich. That said, as you said it all depends on how you want to play the game. If the goal is optimizing guest generation and becoming rich then spamming micro-coasters is the way to go

[@Roozyj]

I think a roller coaster can be called a cheezy microcoaster if it's something that people irl would be thouroughly disappointed by, like the half corkscrew or the unfinished looping. Also, if a lot of them are spammed, because who would want to ride the same ride 4 or 5 times in different places of the park?

[@iang0th]

I think duplicate rides can often be excused due to the higher throughput being a realistic advantage. Assuming I wanted to ride it in the first place, I'd much rather see 5 copies of a ride than have to wait 5 times as long to get on. But yeah, there's a limit to that before the park starts to look like some sort of dystopia, especially if they would be lame rides in the first place.

[@linomatheus7418]

but that one is pink! i need to collect all the colors

[@Gameprojordan]

​@Ian Goth duplicate rides work if you have 2 or 3 of them side by side and it looks like they're racing eachother to the finish line, but spamming 100 of them side by side stops looking or feeling like theme park rides, and starts feeling like a machine

[@namewarvergeben]

The cheesing and "exploiting" of game mechanics is part of why I enjoy these videos! Once you've beaten a game (almost any game) as "intended", it's just fun to have a look under the hood and see what you can do with "inside knowledge" like that

[@bortsimons7457]

The insane amount of in depth knowledge of the game is what makes this chanel stand out. One a game is beaten, finding out about the mechanics, exploits and loopsholes of a game is what's keeping it fun. Microcoasters are one result of exactly that. And that's what i love about this chanel and makes me watch every video.

[@nuk3snip3r]

Marcel has good reasons to use them, but I will admit that I was a bit bummed when they became part of the park in the last video. I usually play RCT as though I was building a real theme park. No theme park would put 6 ferris wheels in a row, even if they were rainbow. This said, go for it, Marcel. Now that I understand that the rest of the park looks better because of them, I am more inclined to ignore them and consider them a tool to get a nicely decorated and build ride.

[@MaartenvanHeek]

I felt they were necessary because of his self imposed limit of only charging for entrance tickets. They are not necessary if you simply ask money for rides. I think the latter is more fair anyway, otherwise one of the early guests that only paid €10 gets to ride all the rides that were built later, while people that arrive later have to pay more entrance

[@scottthewaterwarrior]

I often build multiple ferris wheels just to handle the load: it is a pretty long ride, so the que line tends to fill a lot faster then it empties with only one. It's also a rather broken ride: at only one rotation the stats are so terrible few guests want to ride it but with two (or more) rotations guest start complaining they want to get off!

[@christianstonecipher1547]

I am firmly in the field of "microcoasters are exploits". And with that I am also of the mind that exploits are expected for challenges but seeing exploit abuse in your casual game does lower my enjoyment a bit. To me it changes the image of the video from "let's build a park" to "let's beat a challenge". And as to what I would define a microcoaster to be, my definition would be "any small form factor ride that you repeat for the purpose of trivializing money or the soft guest cap". Personally, what ruins it for me is seeing the same coaster multiple times (excluding dueling coasters as those have their place) as that is what ruins the immersion for me.

[@EMAngel2718]

I think it's sort of like looking up what to do in an exploration/puzzle game in a walkthrough; you lose something when you do it but sometimes the negatives you're able to bypass make it worth it

[@-DeScruff]

I don't consider them cheating. But I do think that abusing them is kinda against the spirit of the game. Its the kinda thing that if it was your first ever playthrough of the game, or of a scenario, I personally would recommend against spamming them since they can easily destroy any challenge. I think one of the ways to make it feel less "cheese" is to space out your microcoasters. Rather then have them all in one spot putting them in more realistic places (1 or 2 between bigger rides)

[@CTGrell]

I usually only build 1 of each rides or maybe 2-3 if the park is bigger and I don't have other ride options. sometimes they just neatly fit in a small space so I put them there

[@toddkes5890]

What I'd like to see is when the coaster is tested, it checks not just the front car but also the rear car to see if it satisfies the requirements. For example the half turn as sen in 6:42 currently passes because the front car makes it inverted, but the rear car does not. So the next iteration OpenRCT would check the rear car, see that it does not invert, then that ride would lose half its Excitement due to lack of inversion. Of course I'd also want to make it where the Photo stations earn money based on how far the photo station is from the start of the ride, and how fast the slowest car is passing them. So if you put the photo station at the beginning of the ride you get barely any benefit. Similarly, if the front car has reached a brake section, the slower speed on the rear section will reduce the money it earns.

[@rice2meatu]

An alternative is to use them inside buildings or underground, like as a faux dark ride!

[@oldvlognewtricks]

I would love a companion video to this where you suggest tweaks that would make the gameplay more fun while also removing the incentive to use these quirks of the economic system. Even just hearing whether it could be done by adjusting the formulae or whether it would need new game systems would be interesting to hear.

[@M21655]

Great comment

[@DMoney13331]

I agree - cheat/ no cheat depends entirely on what you're trying to do. That said though, I would also watch a mini series where you tackle some of your favorite scenarios specifically without any cheesing as a challenge to see what you can manage to come up with under that condition

[@Jerad2142]

I'd argue the main issue is no one in their right mind would pay 7 bucks to ride halfway up a loop in real life and return to the station, as a simulation ideally it would reflect that. As such I feel like this would have been considered a bug and patched out if it had been exploited to large scale back in the day.

[@MuffinSeeker]

I mean people can't survive -4 lateral Gs and go 100 years without having food or drink either. I've personally never seen RCT or any other x builder/management game as realistic myself because of quirks like that. I also don't get people dictating how other people play a game. If it was a competitive multiplayer game sure, but the main goal is to have fun here and clearly Marcel enjoys himself and his dinky coasters.

[@go-away-5555]

@@MuffinSeeker Marcel can play however he likes. The concern is that people can also choose to watch (or not) videos that they want. That's why he's making this video and asking in the comments

[@rmac3217]

Patched out haha. The game was on a CD and even pictures took a long time to download off dial up, you got what you bought and that was it.

[@seanwalters1977]

And in no world could you build a giant thrill ride for $300 so why do microcoasters matter?

[@nightwolfMKT]

I wouldn't say it's cheating but I do think it's against the spirit of the game. When you're going for speedruns or efficiency or records they make sense, but when you're just building cool theme parks the limits of the scenarios is why scenarios exist in the first place and what makes the parks more unique, trying to make a great park while under the different restrictions. Micro-coasters effectively remove those limits resulting in a lot of them feeling more like sandbox mode rather than a themed scenario with restrictions on what's available to do.

[@M21655]

Exactly. Very accurate analysis

[@saurillian]

Yes, that's the point. He is making a sandbox for him to build nice looking coasters

[@MissIceMateria]

Oh no, the 'spirit of the game' has been violated! Call an exorcist!

[@stellacollector]

When I was playing RCT scenarios, I didn't want them to be too easy, so I played them under my own additional rules/handicaps: 1) No microcoasters, of course, and 2) even no advertisements, because they're super OP too, and occasionally, 3) no pre-built designs, so I had to make my own custom design for every ride. But that was just how I played the scenarios, and I am totally enjoying the way you play the game. The way you design the coasters and the park is quite inspiring, and since scenario plays were a huge part of my RCT experience, I am very excited about this particular series as well. Still, I hope that you don't "overuse" microcoasters though. You have already made many "efficiency-oriented" parks with microcoasters in challenge videos, and what was interesting for me in this series was that you focus more on aesthetics part of the park instead of efficiency - and I do hope to hear more about the characteristics of the park itself and how you design the park in following videos. Please keep up the great work!

[@jcohasset23]

I don't get the OP value of advertisements. Sure they're useful in a few of the scenarios that require a high guest count or needing to reach a specific requirement for the scenario to end but in normal play I rarely find them needed in RCT1 (they feel much more useful in RCT2). My only issue with microcoasters is they don't look very good spammed around a park and I can't get near the value out of them that Marcel does in what he is able to charge for his rides.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

@@jcohasset23 no matter the scenario, guests are the fundamental core of your econ the more guests you have, the more money you can make. which you can then use to attract more guests, which make you even more money. thus, a system that significantly boosts your guest generation will not only earn you more money than you spend on it ( provided, of course, you aren't putting out ads for a park too small to support 'em ), but will accelerate the feedback loop that governs your income to significantly boost the funds you have access to over the course of the entire scenario

[@jcohasset23]

@@hi-i-am-atan I get that, though rarely is the limiting factor for my parks within a scenario money. Most times it's what is available to build as I don't often make duplicates of rides and those that I do I make sure it's a different design. Guests are great to have and necessary but if you end up with more than the park can support that ends up requiring aggressive expansion and depending what is available to build and the map design that may leave large areas of the map with little there beyond guests. I know it's just personal preference and I often don't use all the available park space (for scenarios I usually fulfill the win requirements up to a year in advance and just have to wait out the clock).

[@gymnasiast90]

For me, resorting to exploits like these takes the fun out of the game. I want to build nice looking parks that I wouldn’t mind visiting myself. But I kept this to myself on the two videos as, like as you pointed out, microcoasters are a very recognisable part of the channel - would it really be a Marcel Vos video without a microcoaster here or casual manslaughter there?

[@neodragon1988]

We could use more casual manslaughter during the scenario play through. Maybe we will be bless once more with him using microcoasters to drop people into the void to keep fresh guests entering into the park.

[@AlryFireBlade]

Where is this an exploit, it doesn't abuse Bugs, it is just that he has the skill and knowledge how to build highly efficient coasters.

[@seanwalters1977]

I don't see how it's an exploit. It's simply understand the game's coding and mechanics. Gets you out of a tough spot in some scenarios. If you want realism then play in sandbox.

[@Gin-toki]

Personally I find microcoasters okay but I limit the amount I use in a given park to only a few. Typically only two of the same type and placed symmetrically next to each other. I do typically also make them a bit longer than the absolute minimum just to make them look at bit better. For example the looping microcoaster I make so it will actually run through the loop, up an incline and back down through the loop again and typically also add a photo section to it. I find it looks better and more realistic as a real ride than one where the train barely leaves the station. I do however find it somewhat cheaty to spam a park with microcoaters everywhere.

[@Gin-toki]

And in regards to the question: "what is the proper way to play roller coaster tycoon?" the answer is simple. In whatever way brings you joy.

[@jordanfer500]

Hell yeah it is!, That's why we must create only heartline coasters, the best type of coaster in the game.

[@wldn9055]

Absolutly agreed.

[@TheAechBomb]

I was firmly against the heartline until I built one in a custom scenario as the second coaster I unlocked... it was actually pretty nice honestly it did somehow crash once but I still cannot figure out how

[@JakeTerch]

I think they’re justified for speed runs, but I don’t really ever use them in multiples. The Junior Coaster design is pretty realistic.

[@SleinMcAwesome]

This is how Chris Sawyer imagined his game to be played.

[@SekritJay]

I was going to say that myself, it's on record that Sawyer designed RCT to be played through scenarios and thought a sandbox mode was a violation of his vision. He had to be browbeat into adding one. With that in mind then I would say no, it's not cheating. I would say however that cheesing a game this way is very boring. But not cheating

[@TheotherPoolboy]

I add two synchronized micro corkscrews named "Marcel 1 & 2" to every park out of respect. They also help fund my need to try and make every other coaster have very high excitement.

[@oranges32121]

I think the use of microcoasters in your Dynamite Dunes playthrough was perfect. You used them as a resource to build better (and better looking) coasters in future. Plus, I actually enjoyed the way they looked.

[@Dilo22]

I'm one of them. I love building realistic-esque parks in the game, which these things are not. They're not cheating, but I think they're pretty lame. I view them the same way as speedrunning an FPS game; skipping like 80% of the game's content/point just to get it done as fast as possible.

[@lennystudios3.14]

I agree, but I also feel like there is another element to things like the micro coasters and especially speed running, which is the enjoyment of the player.

[@nickchivers9029]

Im pretty much in your camp, but I get a kick out of watching Marcel push the games mechanics to the limit, even though I dont play the game that way.

[@Dwurban64]

I think it comes down to personal preference and what challenges you want to give yourself while playing. Its kind of like gamerules in Minecraft. Playing with keepInventory or without mobGriefing comes down to what you yourself want in your experience. The same is true here. You're playing the game the way you want to, and if people disagree that's their prerogative, especially when it's just casual play like this

[@LeonCoretz]

I've been on a real life micro coaster, which was a junior/steel mini coaster that traveled with the annual fair. As a child, I loved it. The train would complete multiple laps and if they're were few guests and you asked nicely the conductor might give you a few extra! I think it's fair to pay with micro coasters when used in moderation, such as limiting each micro coaster type a single pair (for aesthetic and sync reasons) and also limiting the number of pairs to the number of "proper" roller coasters.

[@certifiedschizophrenic8598]

I love how deep you’ve made this game to me dude, I’m glad you stuck with the game and kept making more and more interesting videos

[@Boulder_Bill]

Advertisements are built into the game and always 100% okay to use. Minimum stat requirements are also part of the game to encourage building proper sized coasters. Mcro coasters don't meet those requirements and are only used as a way get around the game mechanics. It's like using any other glitch or cheat code in other games.

[@fehzorz]

Plus there are some scenarios that ban advertising

[@iang0th]

Micro coasters are built into the game, too. The fact that the coaster rules weren't entirely well thought-out doesn't change that. There's no glitch involved, just poor game balance.

[@gfrewqpoiu]

I wish OpenRCT2 would add a "Hard Mode" or a "Realism Mode" where as well as other changes, it would remove the "If it has at least one inversion, these other requirements are ignored" stat requirement. That would immediately invalidate the two best microcoasters.

[@Phoenix-zu6on]

not cheating, but definitly cheesy, what i find more cheesy though is spamming 10+ of the same ride right next to each other.

[@Keither754]

This is how I see it…as long as these exploits are possible in vanilla RCT2 or in RCT Classic, then I don’t have a problem with it. It might not create the most “realistic” parks possible, but as you said, that’s not always the goal. There is not just one correct way to play RCT, so as long as it fits your goal, then go for it! It takes skill to know when, where, and how to use the micro coasters efficiently. However, I *would* consider using things like the “Tile Inspector” or other plug-ins in Open RCT2 to be “cheating” (since they’re not available in normal gameplay) 😅

[@lennystudios3.14]

Agreed, also, if your making a sandbox park, cheating is fine too, which is another point to bring up.

[@scholardeville]

handled with grace and well explained and i agree that for the sake of teaching newcomers its good to let them see how it's done, not everyone was on this channel from day one and it's the same reason linus tech keeps making "how to build a pc" vids, there will always be newcomers. i also think for the sake of video production it helps speed up the scenarios and make for better paced and more watchable videos

[@adisander]

I think the definition of microcoaster probably comes down to spamming them, so it's more a question of _repeated_ small coasters. I agree as you say though that it works fine if used sparingly and appropriately - I thought their use in the last scenario was fine and if anything, with the decoration, pretty cool. It's if you were to plop them down with no thoughts to esthetics that I'd start to complain.

[@Tahngarthor]

The devs honestly partially accounted for this, as there are penalties for multiples of the same kind of ride in the park. However those penalties are nowhere near severe enough to make these coasters not worth using.

[@cefel]

I think you missed the point of the comments. Those microcoasters break the suspension of disbelief. This is a park simulator at heart - it represents, more or less, what a park would look and behave like. It's still a game, but it behaves according to rules that (again, more or less) attempt to represent how a real park and their visitors work. There's no park on Earth you would go to where four ridiculously small coasters that look exactly the same are put one next to the other. But you would go to a park because you saw an advertisement. It's not about the feature being overpowered or not, it's about how the unrealness of it breaks the fun for many.

[@korg47237]

It's not that you're "cheating", it's that you're doing the most efficient thing to achieve a result, and this specifically is a cheesy strategy. Personally in any game, I don't care about the most efficient methods and do what I think is most fun. You may find more value in choosing the most efficient, cost effective decision in a game (which is pretty clear for anyone who views your channel), but for people like me if I play RCT I couldn't really care to build optimal/cost effective/soft guest cap rides. I just build a cool looking rollercoaster.

[@green929392]

I don't think micro coasters are cheating, but in my opinion it makes the game less fun; no real amusement park would build multiples of the same design like that. I agree that it really depends on what your goals are when you play a scenario.

[@aleximraypapineau]

I personally like watching your let's play series and wouldn't want to see much changed. But I think there are 2 main reasons people don't like seeing micro-coasters in your campaign playthroughs: First: I think what puts people off micro-coasters is how unrealistic they are in everything they do. Like, it's realistic to use advertising for a park or its rides, even if it's busted. But it's not realistic to have 4 identical tiny bits of corkscrew track attract hundreds of guests, get those guests to pay plenty of money to barely ride them, and skyrocket the park's value. Of course, RollerCoaster Tycoon is hardly realistic to begin with, so that point should be taken with a grain of salt. Second: We know you, Marcel, are tremendously skilled at RCT. We know this. And we also know that micro-coasters make it very easy to beat a park. But not everyone can complete scenarios without using micro-coasters and advertising, and not everyone can complete scenarios while also making a beautiful, decorated park. But YOU can. And we love seeing you create a successful, beautiful park using all your skill _without_ glaringly obvious/overpowered tactics. We love hearing you explain why building a small (not micro) coaster early is both pretty but will also financially help you later down the line, or why a certain flat ride was your choice at that point in time. We love seeing your solution to problems, like how when Dynamite Blaster broke, your solution was close/reopen, because _you know that works_ and will help achieve the goal, even if it's not a permanent solution. The little optimizations, based on all that skill and knowledge you have, we love seeing. At the end of the day, this is _your_ casual play, so you are, of course, free to play as you want. But if you're playing in consideration of what we want to see, if it's not a video specifically about how busted XYZ thing is or some hilarious obscure RCT fact, I'm betting we just wanna see some high-skill RCT play that _we_ can't or wouldn't think to do, so we can learn from a master and and artist.

[@PumpkinCigar]

I'm in the no micro-coaster camp. The increased challenge and visual design improvements are also nice imo.

[@BlazeMakesGames]

I mean isn’t this just what Harder Guest Generation is meant to fix? It is clearly the mode that is more spiritually aligned with making a more realistic park that pretty much just punished making tiny repetitive coasters. Maybe you could just play all the scenarios on that instead.

[@immortaldonkey7448]

I was a little upset when you started using the microcoasters in your playthrough. I changed my mind though by the time the park was complete, you didn't use too many and you incorporated them very well. Now I think it wouldn't be a Marcel park if it didn't have a few microcoasters :D

[@ExtremelyBurntToast]

I think the microcoasters are very satisfying to look at and build, though a mix of different designs or coaster types would probably have more fans. most of these designs remind me of quaint little town fair rides and i love the throughput and usefulness of them too. I think the guest cap system isnt as well thought out as the rest of the game for sure and that is the reason these exist at all. a massive super fast roller coaster would obviously bring in more guests in real life but this game is old and relatively simple and thats why its great.

[@saxxymanene]

Idk, when I was watching the last video I was thinking "I sure hope he demos the micro coasters so he can shove new things there" and was a little disappointed when the micro coasters were not removed, but they're your parks so I didn't figure I would complain or even make a comment until now.

[@TheRedWisdom]

It's not cheating. I think people who are complaining are jumping the gun. You should not be worried. But it is an interesting question to consider. I think some people came into the series of the scenario playthroughs with weird expectations. I think you posed an excellent question with asking how you are supposed to play the game correctly. I do not believe there is a reasonable answer to that question. I think MtPain27 Dean of Doom series is a great example of someone clearly setting expectations on their series in the beginning of each video (and he also is choosing to forego a few things that is a part of the games to make his runs more interesting). Another example we have is Super Mario Maker 2 where it is very popular to play endless expert mode where you try to complete as many user created levels as possible with a limited amount of lives. Some of the people playing are extremely skilled at the game. For each level you play you can at max regain 3 lives and at worst lose all your lives. An interesting storyline that automatically happens in each video is how many lives they lost or gain. And when the life total gets low you can feel the tension. Will the run die or not? Super Mario Maker has a skip button. In theory these expert players could skip any level that gives them trouble and trivialize the whole run. I don't think MicroCoasters in itself is the problem. The fact that you ran out of money during the scenario was an interesting conundrum. I don't know what peoples expectations were. But I believe they somehow felt cheated out of an interesting situation when you immediately went to MicroCoasters. With the challenge of you decorating each attraction. It would've been interesting to watch you struggle to be able to decorate all the attractions in time. But then again if you need money it makes no sense for you to arbitrary not use efficient ways to make money which makes their complaints nonsensical. I'm sure you'd find other equally "cheesy" strats from their point of view if you banned MicroCoasters specifically. What I think people are worried about. And this hasn't happened yet. Is that anytime you run into a challenge you will always solve it in the same way and as a result we will get boring videos. I don't think this will happen. Though I think I would enjoy if you did self impose some different limitations in this series that would encourage you to use some of the more obscure mechanics of the game (like you do in your many other videos). Though I do fully trust that whatever you edit and publish will be a high quality video. With or without limitations.

[@VRSVic]

Isn't cheating but is exploiting, because you're abusing how the game checks for a design. However I think that some designs such as switchback work really well specially when you try to create a fun fair style park.

[@KVerssus]

I feel like cheating every time I place the same attraction twice on one map, unless they really belong there. The good question to ask yourself, when you don't know if placing a coaster is cheating, is -Would I ride it?

[@mabalos]

Its not cheating, its an exploit. Fair game. Like it or not, no unintended mechanics.

[@Karpata1]

That's like the definition of an exploit.

[@kelvinon5694]

@@Karpata1 exploits doesn't always mean cheating. its just abusing how the game is programmed. its definately cheesy.

[@Karpata1]

@@kelvinon5694 I was referring to the "unintended mechanics" part of the comment.

[@kelvinon5694]

@@Karpata1 ahh, it's definitely unintended. But I feel that if you are looking for completely optimized gameplay, you will end up using a lot of exploits that abuse certain mechanics.

[@TheTdw2000]

So is the exploit Spiffing Brit showed off where you get infinite money from selling glitched scenery also fair game? I mean it's literally free money, with the same effort as if you just cheated it in.

[@manjoumenakamoto3248]

"I'm not paying that much to go on MicroCoaster 3" - Alicia K

[@JHWsWORLD]

MicroCoaster is not cheating, just a parts of amusement factory! LOL! in Korea these coasters called "Chang-Ryeol Coaster"

[@wldn9055]

Hello, fellow RCT loving korean

[@jerrykreutzer4326]

If RCT was under active development microcoasters would be significantly nerfed. It was supposed to be a "realistic" amusement park simulator and these things just aren't. That's why people don't like them. One could argue that advertising is also overpowered IRL so I'm not sure about that. It would probably just get a lot more expensive.

[@carbon1255]

I have no issue with microcoasters, I do however get tired of spam. I wish the game was more punishing for that. I'd prefer at least some variety in your arrangements or a new way to decorate them each time. I think people were upset more as this was a departure from your usual style where you actually decorate.

[@justinshiverdecker875]

Your videos have nearly all information about a certain subject included within a 10 minute video. I’m impressed. Also the music is in the background of your newer videos is a really nice touch.

[@LordGrayGray]

It would be nice to have some anti-cheesy mode where the game detects if you have multiple of the same coaster and just divides all of their stats by their number (like the stat penalties). So you can have 10 micro loopings but still only attract as much guests as with 1 micro looping coaster.

[@Xeneonic]

Just ramp up the initial build cost (station) by x10, all other parts /8 or /9. Then have guest attraction be a calculation based on the total cost of the ride. That should incentivize people to stop building microcoasters.

[@Mr.Korzack]

The micro-coasters make sense within the channel & the vids like you say, & I do respect your honesty about that while also accepting they do go against the spirit of the game. As for why compact rides or marketing don't attract the same flak, I guess that's more something you expect to see parks doing & some parks actually do, but that's a personal preference. Most times, seeing 30 vos-coasters turn up is as much of the part of the channel's style as a drowning fountain to appease the gods & makes sure we don't take all of this too seriously, which I'm always a fan of. Ultimately, we do what we gotta do to keep an over 20-year-old game fresh fun, so go for it!

[@kitsunelunari]

Honestly I enjoy the microcoasters, and I thought that the point of the series was to create nice looking parks. I agree with the industrial look of them. I can see how people think they're cheaty, but I think that would only apply if you were just going for beating the scenario and that's it. Instead, you're going for "how can I beat the scenario in the nicest way possible" which completely changes the approach.

[@barutjeh]

I think the immersion breaking past is mostly overdoing the number of copies of a ride, not the size of the coasters. 1 is fine. 2 can work, especially when synchronised and/or mirrored. 3 is pushing it. More I'd avoid.

[@turnsout689]

i use tiny coasters after seeing them on your channel and i consider it cheating for myself, but i am ok with that and use them when i just am not invested enough in a scenario over my want to just clear it and unlock potentially more interesting scenarios but in a casual playthrough when im not trying to hit the objective for the sake of just unlocking more scenarios, i usually wont use them since i have more time to wait for funds to rise otherwise. i usually dont start out a new scenario with them, but if i've gotten so far through the allotted time and know i likely wont make it, and dont want to have to start over again, i'll just tiny corkscrew it

[@squishybrick]

In summary, micro-coasters are tryharding. But it's tryharding in game where tryharding is basically necessary if you want to make really cool looking parks, but don't want to wait a very long time slowly building up funds and guests. Pros will passively do it because it lets them have fun with the game in a more complete way, but that does not make them tryhards. Now speedrunning, or using it to beat scenarios? That is tryharding completely.. Still shouldn't be looked down apon, but isn't exactly very entertaining to watch either. ... The thing is, this principle is the same for many other games. There are tryhard tactics that are typically only used by people who have either - Beaten the game repeatedly and just know how to get to the point they have the most fun with as quickly as possible - Speedrunners The only big problem is if the game is competitive.. That's when "tryharding" becomes much more annoying, and shameful, unless the player is literally in a tournament or some official competition of some sort.

[@whoeveriam0iam14222]

micro-coasters are about as interesting to watch as a flatride. so if you make videos of your playthrough you should keep that in mind for the viewers

[@TheAechBomb]

honestly this is the best comparison I've seen; it's effectively a weird launched freefall; it attracts a few more guests and has a better throughput, but you can charge more for the tower ride, so I think it's in line with the rest of the game, even if a little unbalanced

[@whoeveriam0iam14222]

@@TheAechBomb it was more that it is really boring to watch someone play like that as a "playthrough" series. that's why he started doing the challenges after this because then it's just interesting to see what is possible

[@three-quartersbadger2929]

This game could really benefit from a 'value for money' stat for rides, rather than just shops, that would prevent this kind of tactic. If people don't want to pay €8 for a soda or a hamburger then why would they want to pay €12 to ride a coaster that lasts 8 seconds and has all the excitement of falling down a small staircase?

[@Thyeggman]

People grumbled about the same thing when I implemented early scenario completion. "Oh, it's going to become the default!" It has never been selected by default. I originally wrote it because I wanted to allow people to play the game in new ways after 20 years, and because I have an interest in speedrunning myself. Now players have run Roller Coaster Tycoon during charity events, using strategies that have been popularized by people like Marcel, and raised money for good causes while doing so. Play the game in the way that's fun for you!

[@MrGhosta5]

I do like early scenario completion as most scenarios i can beat by middle of year 2 playing casually and before end of year one if I'm playing mostly optomised. I play open rct 2 on an older computer so even at max fast forward the game runs pretty slowly. Being able to complete the scenario instantly instead of having to afk for an hour to complete the scenario is a great quality of life improvement.

[@robertsteffler5155]

Honestly the comments highlight an odd mentality that I've seen in the gaming community. Realistically, if you strip away the specifics from what most of the critical comments are saying, they're not really making any claim about whether the scenario was *actually* beaten, they're making a value judgement about something that has no right answer. They're saying "You're not playing the game the way I like to play it, therefore you're playing it wrong." Everything else is flavor text. It conceals the point, but doesn't *change* anything. Would you build a park that was only microcoasters or ferris wheels or whatever in the real world? No. That would be a great way to lose all your money and go bankrupt. But that's also true of dumping guests into the void, or making coasters that crash on purpose. If you did that in the real world, you'd go to jail. There's no "proper" way to play *any* game, let alone RCT. If the way a particular player prefers to play it involves the use of microcoasters... then let them enjoy the game. The point is to have fun, not to play the way a stranger thinks is best.

[@robertsteffler5155]

Plus, more than that, it's like complaining at speedrunners for missing the point of the game, or at people like Jrose11 who does single-Pokemon challenge runs. Sure, it's not the way most people are going to immediately decide to play, but it's a perfectly valid *method* of enjoying the game. Saying "I like the video, but I wish it didn't involve as many microcoasters because they're so cheesy" is the same thing as going to a Jrose video and complaining, "I like your video and I like Pokemon, but I really think you're killing the wholesome spirit of the game and ignoring the catch-em-all mentality by just cheating in a Pokemon and then throwing it at the entire game and seeing what happens." Sure, you've made a valid point, but... what does it add? You haven't offered something useful like saying, "I don't think you would have done it if you'd played it properly," you're just complaining about a style of play. Marcel is clearly one of the best RCT players in the world, and the series isn't called, "Beating (insert scenario here) the way God intended," it's called Marcel Plays. Complaining about how Marcel is playing the game the way he wants to in a series that is literally called *Marcel Plays* is tautological in the same way it would be meaningless to complain that speedrunners don't care about playing the game the way it's intended -- they only care about beating it as fast as possible. Of course that's true. *That's the point. Clue's in the name.*

[@luciennethesorceress]

so well said, it really depends on your goals and the context of how you play; and even without a video explicitly outlining it like this one, for me it was clear to see subtextually i've learned more from your channel in a few months than i have playing rollercoaster tycoon for 20 years. the fact micro coasters are effective teaches someone like me the nuts and bolts of the game as to why and how to apply that elsewhere i love your videos, always am looking forward to more content. im binging all of the scenarios again in openrct largely because of your channel... some of them for the first time even! :-) thank you!

[@user-bn5df6hl1d]

Yeah it does feel off to me, like , I know I would never ride this coaster, so why would it attract people and make money? Well older me knows its entirely because of some numbers in the background being worked; the magic is gone when you arent making a "park" so much as you are trying to just beat the mission objective effectively which you always will end up using the easier cheaper methods because its just what you know (I would know, last time I played, I ended up spamming micro-coasters on harder missions)

[@shauncorley4305]

I didn't know people had real issues with this. I personally don't care what you do, I just like watching your videos.

[@Edlandish]

Imo any scenario that charges entrance fee is completely miserable to play. I always struggle to make enough money to do anything. I never had that problem back in the 00s because you could charge both rides and entrance. Now I usually just use cheats to swap charge entry to charge for rides, but microcoasters do also provide a solution to the problem. I like the lets plays and even though the microcoasters do detract a bit, the rest of the park is built nicely so I think it's fine. Have fun.

[@davidpaul8647]

Micro-coasters are realistic. If you ever go to a county fair, local city small scale amusement park, etc. they often have shuttle launch style micro coasters that people will pay $ to ride 🤣 I've even seen manually rope powered steeplechase style ones at ren faires, very similar to the "Jousting knights" coaster!

[@itessellate4440]

For me, it depends how you are playing; Are you playing a video game and simply trying to complete the objectives by whatever means are possible, or, are you playing a realistic theme park simulation? Either way I don’t see it as cheating, a little exploitative maybe, but not cheating. As for realism, if you paid 25bucks to get into a theme park and all it had was 50 of the same tiny ride you would be extremely disappointed, and the parks reputation would nosedive.

[@lennystudios3.14]

The way I play, I typically don’t use them unless I get into a tricky spot. They follow the rules of the game, so I’m fine with them mostly. Now that I play mostly sandbox, it doesn’t change much for me anyway.

[@NixXRemade]

From a spectator perspective, it's not so much the microcoasters I find a bit lame, but rather the same microcoaster being copy-pasted. It would be cool if there was some sort of rebalance or nerf for them, or a nerf to using the same rides more than once in close proximity.

[@stevenschiro1838]

When I was a kid and played RCT, it wasn't just about beating the scenario. I wanted rides I'd actually want to ride and a park I'd actually want to go to. There would never be a park with 9 identical ferris wheels next to each other, and no one would ride them. Also, no one would ride most of the microcoasters built, or they certainly wouldn't ride multiple of them. No park needs 38 shuttle loops

[@acidGoatG]

building the longest microcoaster is the typical Marcel Vos experience. Thats what I subscribed for

[@-DeeKay-]

I agree with you 100%. Especially because your videos are not about normal scenarios, but about some very obscure personal goals you set for yourself. I think everyone should play the game the way they want. If I want to build a realistic park that simulates real-life scenarios, I wouldn't use micro-coasters, but otherwise - as you say - it's another form of generating money to build a bigger and bigger park. That's the satisfying part, isn't it?

[@kabutups]

Im happy you made this video and I understand you better now, and now I don't dislike the use of microcoasters as much as before as long as you don't spam them in your casual playthrough series. Persoanlly I would prefer if you used ads since they were intended to be used, unlike microcoasters. If all you need is more money and guests I'd say go with ads! Personally I also just think that microcoasters (that dont even have a complete circuit especially) are kinda ugly and ruin the simulation immersion because they look very out of place and unrealistic.

[@eccentricbass3730]

It entirely depends on the way you want to play the game. It is not cheating if you are not using cheats. At most, it is an exploit. But if you like to play the game for optimization, no, absolutely not cheating. Personally I like to beat all the scenarios with as much realism as possible, but where do you draw the line? When is a coaster to small to be unrealistic? It is up to the individual player to decide. I do think spamming multiple of the same design is over my personal line as it feels like that breaks the realism the most, but again, it all depends on how you want to play.

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

Years before I came across your channel I developed a very simple Junior coaster design that I called "Clastrod's Dish" - a reverse incline with a level-to-steep incline with two steep chains, and the "hill" was unchained track in the same shape on the other side, with a "lip" made out of a steep-to-level. I didn't consider it a micro coaster because I would genuinely pay a buck to ride something like that; that's my criteria for what is a cheating microcoaster, is if I wouldn't ride it in real life.

[@nuggs4snuggs516]

Personally, I believe it is only valid to beat a scenario using microcoasters. It represents a death of the ego, a true letting go of all inhibitions which restrict your mindset. Only by letting the ego perish can you truly achieve anything in RCT, thus allowing you to truly defeat the game in mind and body.

[@IAmPattycakes]

I like seeing how far you can push the game. There's a billion normal playthroughs out there, but the knowledge and creativity you have for making the game do what you want regardless of how insane the challenge can be is why I'm here.

[@limepine881]

Heavily agree with you, one of the reasons why I've watched this channel for quite some time is because Marcel has so much in-depth knowledge about the game that he can use it to both inform players on more general level and do wacky challenges that are almost impossible to do with casual gameplay tactics. IMO his knowledge and "cheats" are his brand that keep people interested to watch videos about a game made in late 90s.

[@Kyezoar]

It's not cheating it's just using your resources! As little resources as possible!

[@oldvlognewtricks]

And exploiting the flaws in the behaviour of the little people riding your rides… just like in real life 😅

[@FumbleSquid]

I would say it's an exploit if anything, I doubt Sawyer would've just allowed the really egregious examples like the corkscrew micro coaster to exist, and instead tweak which stat requirements get nullified by the inversion. That being said, I've been on what one could consider a micro-coaster, it was a pretty fun indoor coaster at a large arcade center (was definitely made more exciting cause it sounded and felt like it could fall apart and had really jerky g-forces). A lot of the micro coaster designs would actually be really cool irl too, particularly your wild mouse design. However, I think the actual thing here that is against the spirit of the game and immersion breaking is spamming identical coasters. No one would go to a theme part with 20 of the same ride, or at least it would seem really weird. I think a mechanic to add via a mod would be sort of a diminishing return (on ride ticket, park value, and soft guest cap) on identical/similar coaster designs, kinda like how it was implemented that having more than one of a particular ride type reduces the max you can charge for it. That way you'd be encouraged to create different micro-coaster designs and end up with a more unique feeling park.

[@LordShadowZ]

As long as they're used sparingly I think it's fine. I tend to use a handful of micro-coasters in a lot of the scenarios I play through these days thanks to this channel because they're useful for earning a little extra cash.

[@brteller]

I say yes it is, technically it's not a written cheat like others, but it's very interesting to know the limits and working of the game. I wouldn't know about these limits if it weren't for your channel and I've literally been playing this game for almost 25 years.

[@tkbreen1381]

“I think micro coasters are cheating” ok don’t use them, it’s a game where you build roller coasters not league of legends

[@MegaZeta]

I use micro-coasters in League all the time. Built different

[@starburst98]

A change to the guest cap calculation is what is really needed. It should have a base rate for the flat rides so they help, but the coasters should be the big draw. So I say a coaster gets +1 for each length of track, multipled in some way by the stats, suffering for missing requirements or overly extreme intensity. So tiny coasters are near worthless and huge perfect stat coasters give massive guest attraction.

[@rmac3217]

If you switch umbrellas to max price $5 if the guest is happy most ppl wouldn’t be able to beat the game without tiny coasters.

[@greed0599]

When I play RTC, I will use microcoasters but only using one of each design. I feel like microcoasters are something that could be found in a real park, and are something people would really ride, just not more than one of the exact same design

[@rmac3217]

They are great for guest storage like long water rides with long lines, an actual metric parks consider on a daily basis. It’s also good for increasingly ride count, ppl won’t feel ripped off if they ride 5+ rides but had to wait a while for the biggest newest coaster.

[@trixie1752]

After this explanation I'm okay with you using the micro-coasters at times. So I allow you. Please continue the series!

[@theplumbum82]

I will watch the video when I get on my break but I'd like to offer my opinions before potentially being influenced by the video I think the correct answer is: "Who cares? RCT is a single-player game and the only rules are the ones that players set for themselves." I personally don't use microcoasters or spam escape hatch because that's just not how *I* want to play the game, I want to make a cool-looking but still profitable park but to call it cheating would be to impose the way I play on someone else.

[@FairlySadPanda]

It does have an issue in that it solves the game too much - a mod rebalance that detects and discourages obviously lame coasters would force more creativity.

[@veggiet2009]

I think it's interesting to approach this like this: What is the lowest cost ride that would attract more guests to a park? In the real world... Now imagine that the guests in the RCT universe just have lower standards, lol 😂 But I would bet if we took a birdseye view of real parks in history I bet we'd find quite few places where actual theme parks used a real world equivalent to a micro coaster, something that's cheap, that kinda looks impressive, but wasn't actually as fun as promised, but nevertheless attracted people and continued to attract people, for some unknown factor.

[@NoraNoita]

If only fun was objective and not subjective you could actually measure it.

[@zaxtonhong3958]

If advertising is just as overpowered as micro coasters, I would prefer to see you advertise instead of using micro coasters (for your casual playthrough)

[@sabifuge]

I am more than OK you build some micro coaster as long as you buid the big ones, just like you did in the part 2 videos. I really enjoyed them and I am looking forward for the series. I like the idea of casual playing, putting some efforts into making a decent part.

[@Kuddlesnot]

I think this is a valid issue in the community and you addressed it here very fairly without saying either side is "wrong". There is a place for everybody to play the way they want to play! I think your approach for your own content, using them where it is appropriate with the overarching goal, makes total sense!

[@SleinMcAwesome]

Just have fun playing the game, everyone! How ever way you like. :)

[@C.I...]

I would say multiple micro coasters of identical design should have huge stat penalties. If the track is under a certain length and is identical to ones next to it, peeps should not ride it.

[@Koron_Bui]

I actually cheered when Marcel was building the micro coasters in Dynamite Dunes. What's a Marcel Vos park without some good old micro coasters?

[@MattDakus]

I'm not a big fan of microcoaster spam. When you're making videos with wacky challenges, it's not out of place to see them get used, but they destroy immersion when I see them in a conventional park. I can't "imagine myself" in a park filled with 40 identical rides you get on, almost go upside down, and immediately get off.

[@firockfinion3326]

Cheating? No. However they are, as Spiffing Brit would put it, "perfectly balanced."

[@lisalove6370]

When you start a scenario you usually place a merry go round. I place a microcoaster with a high excitement value to get the park going. Sometimes I leave it there for along time or I might demolish it later. But I love microcoasters. Someone had a whole pack of them and they are great for scenarios that are small. I never put more than one of the same thing. Variety is the spice of life. I watched the speedruns trials and it was like oh god...I hate that little coaster but in a normal paced scenario it's the way you play so keep up the good work, either way people are always going to be on one side or the other. I forget that you build them most of the time because i'm marvelling at the other things you build that look amazing. Can't wait for the next video. 😁

[@realityveil6151]

Oh okay, so I guess I'm not watching the playthroughs any more since you insist on justifying your BS.

[@lennystudios3.14]

He can play how he wants, and you can play how you want, also it’s totally okay to not watch his channel if you don’t like his play style, that’s fine

[@neodragon1988]

No real value was lost here in the comments or the watch time statistics. You're allow to leave and not watch. Just the same as others are allow to freely choose to build micro coasters or not. Marcel Vos isnt here to make videos under your direction excusively.

[@gamebuster800]

"Yes, and I'll keep doing it. Suck it" - Marcel Vos (slightly paraphrased)