Islamophobia 2 | Ep 8 | How can God hold us accountable if He is the One who guides & misguides?

[@555happydude]

How anyone can experience such double think is incredible.

[@kyoai]

You can't have both "free will" and "everything happens according to gods plan". Either we have free will, meaning not everything happens according to "gods" plan, or everything happens according to gods plan, meaning we have no free will at all. There is no other possibility. How thist most simple logical conclusion eludes muslims and christians baffles me to this very day.

[@2manyusernamestaken548]

Good question, although not formulated in such a way. Allah, God, wants good for and from everybody, but He allows us to make choices. We are free to do good or to do evil. We are not forced to take certain decisions, but that doesn't mean that there will be no consequences. If we willingly choose to do evil, we will be held accountable for that - unless He forgives, and He is very merciful. Qur'an 4 116 Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray. Allah forgives whatever He wants from whomsoever He wills, because He is merciful and has the authority to do so. As long as you don't associate partners with Him, He might forgive you even if you didn't repent before dying. Note that shirk, 'associating partners with God' in Islam, simply known in English as 'polytheism', most likely includes atheism because your god has become your own desire. Rather than obeying God, you took your desire as god. To get back to the point, just like in a classroom where the teacher teaches you the material you need to know to pass the course, God taught us about good and bad. And just like you can choose to learn for your exam and answer the right questions, you can choose to do righteous deeds that will make you enter paradise. Or just like you can choose not to learn for your exam and answer the wrong questions, you can choose to do evil and have an unpleasant ending in the hereafter. So part of God's plan is this free choice: to allow us our destiny. Do you want to follow God? Qur'an 3 31 Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." If not, then make the most out of this worldly life, because you will have failed the most important exam and you won't have pleasure in the hereafter.

[@A.A125]

@@2manyusernamestaken548 Now my analogy, Free choice.. free will.. Surely you do not have choice because by that elemental factor, "choice" is a state of freedom to do any possible actions in your behalf, choice is an act of choosing between two or more possibilities. "the choice between good and evil", ability of option, ability of altering alternatives, possibility of options, possible course of action, deciding upon or having the ability to cause problems and solution,and by God being our creator, like a scientist creating a robot, God knows your Pathology, neurology, biology, bacteriology, Physiology, Futurology, Ethnology, Philology, Epistemology and yes even your/our Personology. Now that is the paradox of creation and Gods ability of the concept of creation of judgment and sin and punishment which is in question. Let's now see the Omni-Omnious, Omnividence, Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnifarious, Omnilingual, Omnigenous, Omniform, Omnipercipience, Omniparience/Omniparient, Omnificence, Omnikenesis, Omnimode, Omnitemporal, Omnipresence, Omniscients, Omnibenevolence, Omnilingual, Omniparity and Omnicompotence, Omnisentience, Omnimodus, Omnitemporal, Omnirelevance, Omnispective, Omniarch, Omnific of God in general, God knows all things, God knows the beginning of The universe, and the end of the universe (according to abrahamic concept of end times) by that magnificent ability of prediction and determinism of the end of the universe by will, can this even apply to a puny little spec of matter as ourselves? And if not.. then we saying God lacks knowledge upon the littlest of Gods creation or has a fault of some kind or even having limited powers to our deterministic choices, or by god's ability, is intentionally demobilising or crippling/disabling gods unfathomable abilities to something so meaningless as ourselves? why would something of that calibre self subjugate itself giving even the concept of the probability of sin knowing the exact outcome? (Since you have answered that with reasoning and logics) If that is also the case, why create hell knowing there is a chance, likelihood, plausibility, possibility and yes even the concept of viability upon people going to infinite punishment? Furthermore... a scenario to help... with biblical evidences in all religions...is it fair of someone to die in a "sinful" state without the time to repent but NOT had the opportunity to possibly change, but a person who done a lifetime of "sinning" is wiped clean? Can this apply to your logical perception of your type of denomination sectarian God? Where is the Omniparity? (Ability of equality in every part; general equality) But continuing with the scenario, does this Mean that God favours those who will go heaven and those who are born by fatalism (a philosophical belief that all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable) to hell by god's Omnipotence (having unlimited power in all fields) Omniscience (state in knowing everything there is to know meaning nothing is unknown to such a thing) Omnipresence (being simultaneously everywhere at the same time [taking into the two abilities as a catalyst factor] in all your fatalism of a existence) although God is Omniscient (knowing everything, all-knowing, all-seeing, all-wise) and Omnifarious (knowing all that is relating to all sorts or varieties) which in that case is Omnigenous (power over all kinds and of great diversity) , Omniform (adjective. Of all forms; having, taking, or displaying any or every form; of all shapes, appearances, or manifestations.), Omnitemporal (all applicable at all times), Omnirelevant (Relevant everywhere, or to everything; always relevant) Omnific (Capable of making or doing anything, all-creating, all-invoking, all-effectuating, all-producing, all-causing, all-catalysing, all-vindicating, all-prompting, all-confirming, all-verifying, all-substantiating, all -accrediting, all-establishing, all-manifesting, all-influencing etc) and Omnilingual (having the ability to understand all types of languages, Omnividence, (The faculty of seeing everything, or of perceiving all things), Omnispective (beholding everything, all-seeing, Omnificent (all creating, all manifesting, all developing) omni-ominous (all power to impress that something bad is about to happen), Omnisentience (all sensory awareness of all things) Omnipercipience (having the ability of absolute insight, ability and perceptive), Omniparious (all producing all things, Omniparient (producing or bringing fourth all things) Omnikenesis (all power in the power to manipulate anything, the ultimate form of telekinesis [recommend the story of exodus with this one]) and my favourite, Can this apply to the omnibenevolence of THE God (infinitely good, All-loving, kind, kindly, kind-hearted, warm-hearted, tender-hearted, big-hearted, thoughtful, loving, exquisitely enchanting, , infinitely nice, good-natured, good, gracious, tolerant, benign, compassionate, caring, generous, infinitely merciful, forbearing, humane, indulgent, tolerant, magnanimous, sympathetic, considerate, thoughtful, well meaning, munificent, bounteous, unselfish, unstinting etc) and Gods Omnicompetence (having the ability or able to deal with all matters and having powers to legislate on all matters) being that God is of a spiritual legislative moral judger that is justice, egalitarian, principle, foundation, pillar of the epitome of what is considered as perfect example, role model, true idol, virtue, propriety, awe in absolute ethical figure? By this logic can the concept of hell or sin or evil or given the same principle applying to the creation, manifestation, apparition (a remarkable or unexpected appearance of someone or something) and even the thought or logical explanation to the materialisation of the devil himself by God's standards to actually, factually exist? This concept goes straight back to "choice between"
 Now when we also philosophically think about the concept of the devil (which I hear this argument a lot) being created as a "all perfect" "most beautiful" "most powerful" "all awe inspiring creation", before even continuing upon such deity, you have to consider by its makings that such a thing cannot have a flaw, or even any fallacious analogies and arguments against such a thing because if something like that actually, factually did exist, it will denote, debunk, demote and derate the very concept of it credibility of it being created or the process of creating such as the most perfect, majestic, fantastic creation, or even questioning the concept of Gods omnipotence, omniscience and Omniparient (producing or bringing fourth all things) Omniparious (producing all things) . We will also need to discuss how this can apply to the omnipotence paradox, God being as what most theist consider god under the umbrella of imperfections, flaws, fallibilities which is responsible or liable to unnecessary ancient holy wars and destructions to digress humanity upon its preservation, prosperity and all natural disasters, cataclysms, disease epidemics that is becoming more harder and further advancing rather than refraining, digressing, decreasing or declining. Has such an infinite powerful being(s) wanted to create a being that possessed all the elements that made it a God(s) or the very concept of God(s) using its powers to create something by infinite energy that could be infinite energy by its immortality now applying the omnipotence paradox to that very creation? Furthermore, I mentioned the paradox of the elemental traits to the design of the human which if a third party is required, it is responsible, accountable, authoritative towards the atomic creation of this Devil(s) we hear of (applying the Neurology, Pathology, Psychology [and most importantly] PERSONOLOGY) with the concept of Omnipotence to Omnifarious,(infinite ability to possess power of comprising or relating to all sorts or varieties) of the natures of these concepts as well as being Omniarch (noun. A person who rules over the whole world or universe) and Omnimode (ability of all functions) with Omnimodus (the faculty of possession of all or every sort or kinds) which then we use this concept it goes straight back to the concept of free will by what I presented above.

[@jb888888888]

Simple -- they're forced by God's Plan to believe in and espouse Free Will. It couldn't be any other way. They don't have the free will to recognize that they don't have free will. Unless they do, which is also part of God's Plan. _(Not that I believe in God. I'm stipulating their base assumption is true in the context of the conversation.)_

[@jamesmartin770]

You should look up the phrase cognitive dissonance

[@darrylelam256]

Weak story with a strawman argument. The nun would also of believed in a all knowing all powerful god. So we can rule out your story as actually happening. The father was only 99% sure that his son would want to color, god on the other hand would be 100% sure of everyone's paths before they could make it. And while the father only knows a small bit of the past, god knows everything past and future. That's what all knowing means.

[@2manyusernamestaken548]

You already made up your mind before watching the video (at least in full). If you listened carefully, you would know that he answered that too: God knowing everything is irrelevant to your free choice or 'free will'. YOU choose to do good and YOU choose to do bad.

[@darrylelam256]

@@2manyusernamestaken548 it seems you choose to comment without reading or understanding what I said.

[@2manyusernamestaken548]

@@darrylelam256 From 'The father was only 99% sure' onwards, there's nothing to disagree with really. Please, clarify what you meant, because apparently I wrongly assumed something you didn't say.

[@darrylelam256]

@@2manyusernamestaken548 According to your beliefs. If god who know EVERYTHING sets things up knowing ahead of time what will happen it would mean that if someone did bad it means that person had no choice but to do bad because your god knew 100% what was going to happen and still set up so that person would do bad. You clearly are too stupid to understand the problems come into play when you try to give your god too much power. Either you have free will or your god is omnipotent but you can not have both. Its one or the other and that's it.

[@robertfalse9063]

Fiddy thanks for whipping up a few stories to illustrate you don't understand the arguments at hand.

[@Robert.Deeeee]

If God is omniscient & omnipotent then there can be no free will. God creates everything, so the behaviour would have been designed by God to do what he wants it to. People will say "God gives us free will" but that doesn't solve the problem. This "free will" that is supposedly given to us, was also created by God. So how exactly does free will work? Will you make decisions based on your personality that was designed by God in the first place? God has already made you choose what you're going to choose. Maybe if God wasn't all knowing and all powerful, then there might be a way to have some kind of free.

[@2manyusernamestaken548]

> If God is omniscient & omnipotent then there can be no free will. God creates everything, so the behaviour would have been designed by God to do what he wants it to. No, if God is omnipotent, meaning He can create free choice (or 'free will'), He can create a creation that has free choice. You're contradicting yourself. Can you explain how God's knowledge influences your daily transactions? Just because God knows you are reading my comment right now, does that mean that God forced you to do that? What kind of absurd reasoning is that? Are you also going to claim that God forced me to write this comment to you? Are you implying that I cannot not write this comment? It's a choice. And I want to comment to you what I am commenting right now. But I could have chosen not to do that.

[@Robert.Deeeee]

@@2manyusernamestaken548 God created your freewill, right? So how exactly can God create something without knowing exactly what it will do? It's either determined by God or it's random. I doubt you want to say your choices are random. God created you, so God created your personality, and that means he knows what choices you'll make. Just saying "he gives us free will" is not an answer.

[@SnakeMan448]

How is someone who is premade to be a rebel choosing to be a rebel? Also, why is someone made to be a rebel punished for being a rebel? That's the mentality of a psychopath, or rather, a multitude of psychopaths excusing their bloodlust.

[@jesperburns]

You don't logic very well dude, you contradict yourself multiple times, which is unsurprising for a theist.

[@2manyusernamestaken548]

As an ex-atheist, atheists pretend to be very logical, rational and educated, but come with the most nonsensical and assertive beliefs as if they have objective truths. Humble yourself a bit more, before you will meet somebody who will humble you.

[@jesperburns]

@@2manyusernamestaken548 What a coincidence that I'm online at this hour, 3 (probably 4) years later. I take your point though, very few "internet atheists" are logical/rational. Try me though. Humble me. As of now, you know nothing of me or my potentially "nonsensical beliefs".

[@2manyusernamestaken548]

@@jesperburns And most Muslims who shout the loudest aren't usually the brightest people either. So let's not have double standards. I'm not claiming to be smarter than you, nor am I interested in boosting my ego by proving you wrong. I'm not interested in anything but the pleasure of the Almighty. If we have a discussion, let's agree to do it for the sake of truth.

[@jesperburns]

@@2manyusernamestaken548 I'm completely detached from the idea of "winning internet arguments with complete strangers", for what I thought was half a decade but judging by my 3 (or 4) year old comment might be slightly less. So have at it. But before we start. You were an atheist, and now a Muslim, and you're not coincidentally from a majority Muslim environment? In fact, if you tell me your rough location, would I be able to guess which specific denomination of Islam you adhere to? If yes, I'm not sure if we should even start...

[@2manyusernamestaken548]

@@jesperburns I'm from The Netherlands. I went to two Christian schools and didn't find Christian beliefs appealing. The belief in a Trinity makes no logical sense. And the concept of original sin sounds unjust and irrational, especially if an innocent man - who is apparently God - needs to die for your sins so that you can be forgiven by God. Either way, I don't remember ever having believed in God until I saw a few videos about Islām. Slowly after watching more and more videos, I started realizing that it all makes sense to me. And thus, after a while I accepted Islām. I'm following mainstream Islām, which is about 80% of the Muslims. So why are you an atheist?

[@dhatmohd9222]

Subhan Allah. This is very beautiful explanation with so much of clarity. In conclusion, If someone wish and choose to follow guidance of Almighty God and live a righteous path, he will get not go astray. If someone don't wish and choose Not to follow guidance of Almighty God and live other than a righteous path, Allah let him go astray. For those who don't understand or comprehend it, or can't see the the rationality of this explanation, they are Blind. Not the eyes can't see but actually the heart can't see. They really live in miserably life without reliance of Almighty God, Allah.

[@tomwolfe6063]

Good job on keeping a straight face.

[@dragonhawkeclouse2264]

destiny and acts of God where the Muslim preacher was interupted by the nun first off, this shows how stupid this story is, because, CHRISTIANITY HAS THE SAME CONTRADICTION.....both of you, AND JUDAISM also, all three of you espouse the exact same contradiction.....and clearly, none of you actually even know WHERE the contradiction is if a god is all knowing, all powerful (ie, not the least of which that he also created all things), AND CAN'T BE WRONG!.....all three points are needed if he is all powerful, then he could have easily created Adam in any number of ways.......as we know, temptation is brought about by several things. God made Adam temptable, influencable.....Why didn't God just make Adam in such a way that he wouldn't be influenced? He made him capable of being influenced. Or is this the seat of freewill? After all, it is my desire, my freewill to no be influenced by things.....but sadly, i don't get this.....i have to suffer being influenced and tempted.....this isn't freewill....this, BY DEFINTION is my will being subjegated to INFLUENCE. So, God didn't make me with freewill, but i digress. God, knowing all of the different ways that he could have made Adam....."hm, i can make Adam in such a way that he finds these fruits VISUALLY disgusting." Then God can know every human that would come from that. "hm, i can make Adam to not like anything that grows from a tree." Then God can know every human that would come from that. "hm, i can make Adam in such a way that he desires to do what i tell him not to do." Then God can know every human that would come from that. "Yeah, let's go with that one." See, if he knows everything, first and foremost, that means that EVERY ASPECT of Adam was meticulously created by God, including the breaking points and falling points. Thus, the will is not free. Because God already KNOWS that, "at this point, he WILL fail!" there is no other option, because.....GOD CAN'T BE WRONG! In other words, when he created a being, and foresaw that "this defect" will cause a fall, IT WILL CAUSE A FALL! it is more likely, that IF this story actually happened, then, the nun was not asking because she was confused or thought that Islam contradicted itself, rather, asking to see if Islam resolved it in the same way as christianity and just because the father said that he didn't influence his child in any way....this is bull shit. If the child were to be asked with a stern voice, the child would have most likely listened to the adults. The child recognized that the father was not angry, and thus, the child was being influenced by the ease of which the father was taking.....THIS IS INFLUENCE!!! You clearly do not understand how subtly a person can be influenced......and face it, the act of coloring is far more FUN to a child than philosophical discussions about the meaning of life shit,....oh wait a minute.....something being more fun IS A FUCKING INFLUENCE. His choice was again, not free, he was INFLUENCED by coloring, while at the exact SAME TIME he was being negatively influenced by indepth discussions that he couldn't understand.....where is the freewill? and as logicked references, if you want to talk about the all knowing concept.....the father is NOT all knowing, even if he is 99% sure....there is after all, still that 1%, thus, he can NOT be compared with God who IS ALL KNOWING!!!.....but i think i pretty much addressed that first before talking about the child. NO analogy can be drawn from people who are limitted in knowledge and God who is all knowing....NO ANALOGY........if God can NOT BE WRONG, he can't be wrong

[@2manyusernamestaken548]

> God made Adam temptable, influencable. That's true. And he sinned. But, wasn't Adam forgiven by Allah? The Quranic creation story is very deep and rich in meaning and I think you would appreciate it, considering that theology/philosophy seems to be of your interest. It's very unlike the Biblical narrative where for example you have the concept of original sin and that the woman is cursed with painful child bearing. I won't blame you for your ignorance, but know that we're not Christians. If you want to make a case against Islam, study it first. The story of Adam actually is a very strong case for Islam and not against it. I won't be able to get deep into it right now and I think it's best to read the Qur'an (translation) for yourself, but here are is a passage: Qur'an 2 30 And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." *They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."* 31 And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful." 32 *They said, "Exalted are You; we have no knowledge except what You have taught us.* Indeed, it is You who is the Knowing, the Wise." 33 He said, "O Adam, inform them of their names." And when he had informed them of their names, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth? And I know what you reveal and what you have concealed." God is perfect in His knowledge and in His wisdom. We only have the pixel and He has the total picture. So to claim that we know better than God would be absurd. Even the angels were amazed that God would create a creation such as us that could (and would) sin. But Allah, God, He said that He knows that which they do not know. It has been narrated to us from the Prophet Muhammad - peace be upon him - that God wants us to sin: Sahih Muslim 2749 _By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them._ ...and ask for forgiveness, because Allah is Most Merciful and He loves to forgive. Isn't that beautiful? Would you rather be a robot - or an angel which God already created before us - and be incapable of sinning or would you rather obey God and love God by your own free choice? The difference between Adam and an evildoer, is that Adam regretted and repented. And Allah forgave him completely. And an evildoer keeps doing evil without heed and without remorse. Qur'an 2 37 Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. 38 We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve. You went quite on a rant there, but maybe I'll address more points later.

[@KewlImp]

I was genuinely interested in your argument until you presented evidence. Your analogies don't work. But let me ask you a simple question, if the God described in your Quran is accurate and he know all time, all places and he created us to follow certain paths, then he has created the rebels and tricksters. The question is this; Do we have free will to begin with? As far as the sign posts idea; prove to me the devil can't make his own signs that look like god's sign posts and lead someone astray.

[@2manyusernamestaken548]

Reread your comment. You're all over the place. There is no coherence in your text.

[@KewlImp]

@@2manyusernamestaken548 Wow this is an old comment. However, I shall respond none the less because I am bored. 1. If you follow every sign post, how do you know they are God's signpost. 2.Free will does not exist if God created us with the purpose of being non believers. That is a fault on God, not on the created.

[@steve66oh]

At 1:30, you misstate the "contradiction of free will vs. omniscience". The problem is that, if an all knowing, eternal Creator of everything (including me), already knows (before I am conceived) everything that I will ever do (including all of the things i will do that will offend him and "compel" him to torture my soul for eternity in Hell), THEN, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to "choose" to do anything differently. If I could make those other choices - if I could do anything other than what he already knows I will do - then by making even one of those other choices, I can make him WRONG. Since (by definition) an omniscient being with infinite foreknowledge of everything, CAN'T be "wrong", EVER... it necessarily follows that I do not have free will to make any choices other than what he already knows I will make. I am NOT saying that he will influence my choices to prevent me from making him wrong. I'm saying he doesn't have to, because whatever he already knew, is inevitable. It is the only "possibility" (or "choice") that is actually possible. The other "choices" are illusions, like a mirage in the desert. Free will simply can not exist in a Universe that was created and is ruled by an omniscient, omnipotent, infinite, timeless, immortal being - at least, it can not exist for any entity other than that Creator. Also.. if that Creator DOES have free will... then for what purpose does he CHOOSE to create people who he already knows beforehand will do things that will offend him and "force" him to initiate the "eternal torture in Hell" punishment for them? You can't say "he had no choice" - being "all powerful" requires him to have the POWER of choice. You can't say "he hopes we'll repent and make better choices" - by my first paragraph, it's clear we can't make "choices" that disprove what he already knows. In fact, given that he already knew everything I would ever do before he chose to cause me to be conceived - and he already knew whether or not he would eventually banish my soul to eternal torment in Hell - then you can ONLY say that he created me because he WANTED me to serve him as an object of his eternal wrath and scorn. (sort of like if I bred puppies because I WANTED puppies I could tie to my car bumper and drag them down the street) In the absence of human free will (which can not exist in the face of omniscience), eternally punishing souls for doing things they CAN NOT CHOOSE not to do, is INFINITELY MORE SOCIOPATHIC than breeding puppies because you want to drag them to death behind your car. IF I was someone who kills puppies by dragging them behind my car... and if the Creator already knew before he created me, that I would do that... and if his foreknowledge of that means I have no power to not do that.. and if he would punish my soul for eternity in Hell for doing things ("Thou shalt not kill") he knows I CAN NOT not do... then HIS choice to create me would be the ONLY voluntary choice that caused the death of those puppies. In that case, isn't he AT LEAST as responsible for their deaths as I? Isn't he then every bit as deserving of the eternal punishment in Hell? A "kind, merciful God of love" who doesn't WANT to torture people for eternity because they tortured puppies to death, CLEARLY WOULD EXERCISE HIS POWER TO CHOOSE by choosing NOT TO CREATE any people he already knows he will torture for eternity. Since sociopaths exist, no God has exercised the power to choose not to create them, so the "kind, merciful God of love" who would NEVER choose to be the only voluntary cause of torture, does not exist. Between the remaining alternatives, it is easier for me to believe that "no God exists", than to believe in the God who chooses to create sinners SO HE CAN torture them in Hell for eternity.

[@ravenvalentine4919]

when you have nothing smart to say, say the silly thing in a story, the idiots will be impressed

[@justincredible.]

Keep trying.

[@deelynn9128]

God does not misguide. Satan does.

[@lycantico]

how would you know if they did, how would you know they exist?

[@dragonhawkeclouse2264]

angels supposedly don't have freewill, and thus, neither does satan......he can't rebel a house divided can not stand, this is what jesus said, claiming that he couldn't be casting out demons by the power of satan ok, then jesus can't save by his own power nor by power given to him by God BECAUSE satan rebelled.......God's own house is not secure, God's own house is divided.......so, there can be NO SALVATION, no matter how you think it might happen, whether you are a christian, or a muslim, or a.....ha ha ha, i was about to say a Jew.....but, Jews don't think satan rebelled

[@nagranoth_]

So, contradicting your own holy book as an excuse.?.