Isolating A Motor For DCC (223)

[@markfisher8206]

Thanks so much Larry I was one who asked about isolating motors prior to decoder instal.

[@felipesanchezcuriel]

Thank you for all this information, I'm new to the hobby lobby and I have a project to tackle:I have a 50+ years old Rivarrossi NO steam loco that I inherited and want convert to DCC.Your videos have reached me a lot of factors I was not considering. Thank you

[@paulantoine1696]

For electrical isolation, may I suggest this commonly available tape: Kapton Tape. It's both heat resistant and electrically isolating due to its polyimide composition. Conveniently for use in models, it's also very thin so can even be used in smaller scale models.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Kapton might work but I would be concerned that it might not be thick enough to prevent mechanical wear and a short at some point in the future.

[@jhoodfysh]

Very interesting Larry. I let the smoke out of a decoder once, and I do not want to do it again. ;-) Thank you.

[@TheDCCGuy]

I just smoked one today, more on Friday.

[@mikedurhan9941]

Larry: Thanks so much for all you go through (and the $ you have spent on video recording equipment, lighting, etc.) to voluntarily make these videos to educate us masses on how to enjoy model railroading. What a kind thing to share your knowledge. Hard to comprehend what amount of time you spend making these video creations for us. I'm grateful. I'm sure many others are also. Mike

[@peterjhillier7659]

Thank you Larry, a really great informative Video, easy to understand, and avoids those costly fried Decoders. Keep safe.

[@brandongaines1731]

Thanks! I've always wondered how to set up a locomotive for DCC so that forward=forward. Now I know!

[@LifeOfRiley2166]

Excellent video, I do not have an electronic background. None of this makes sense. This is a good start.

[@ricter591]

Thanks Larry, Looking forward to the decoder installation.

[@robertpetit57]

Athearn has released new style motor mounts that now screw in. Part number is 84028, four mounts,eight screws so you can do two locomotives. I also use Kapton tape to insulate the motor.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Thanks, I had not seen those, I’ll look them up and pick some up. Most of my old rubber mounts got hard and cracked some time ago.

[@peteengard9966]

I have several brass locomotives with open frame motors that I have isolated and tuned them up using super magnets. That brings the current draw down to under a half amp, makes them slower and gives out tremendous torque. The Bowser DC71 skewed armature makes a great DCC compatible motor just by replacing the magnet. I also weigh down my locomotives for maximum pulling power. My little 2-6-0 PRR F3 can pull 10 Bacman HW passenger cars on level track without spinning it's wheels. Thank you for the videos.

[@uptownphotography]

Can you point me to where you buy the magnets to upgrade the open frame motors. I have many brass engines I (with Pittmans) that I would like to do the same thing to lower the amp draw for DCC. Thanks and great idea. Phil NYC Area

[@TheDCCGuy]

Micro Mark used to sell them and you might check with Bowser.

[@uptownphotography]

@@TheDCCGuy Thanks for the information. Do they actually lower the current draw? It would be great of I didn't have to change out a whole bunch to Pittman style motors to be able to convert my older brass to DCC. Thanks. Phil NYC Area

[@andrewstevenson5449]

Thanks for another clear explanation. As I've never used DCC, this hadn't occurred to me, but of course it's now blindingly obvious that you don't want motors that are electrically connected to the chassis. Never knew that right rail positive means a loco should go forwards: I wonder if all manufacturers across the globe adhere to that NMRA standard. I seem to remember back in the 60s/70s, at least one manufacturer's (Jouef?) locos went in the opposite direction to other European manufacturers. As an aside, I noticed that the bottom of your Atlas loco said made in Austria, and that reminded me how the now giant Roco got started into model trains by making US outline models for Atlas.

[@rjl110919581]

thank you for sharing video

[@donna30044]

Hint: Once the polarity of the contacts has been determined, apply a small dot of red fast-drying nail polish next to the positive contact area to allow easy future identification. For the negative pole, use white or gray nail polish. The best applicator is a blunted toothpick, not the nail polish brush, which is far too big. Give the polish enough time to dry before handling.

[@elsdp-4560]

Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.

[@martinpattison1567]

The open frame motors that were shown at the beginning of this video are very similar to the motor used by Hornby the XO3 and the XO4. In your video was the one one the left of the picture a 5 pole motor? As I may of said before I am not going dcc, it is just too expensive, but I am trying to improve the motors in my early models from Hornby. Martin. (Thailand) If I am not DCC then why do I watch your channel? because I still like to keep upto date with what is happening in Model Railways and you explain things very clearly.

[@markgoodrich941]

Thank you.

[@crsrdash-840b5]

The NS #7102 is a GP60. The bulk dynamic housing and larger rear radiators are the key features. Unfortunately, Athearn did not include the correct trucks. The trucks are a cross between the Bloomberg B and M with a dampering strut on each truck.

[@bartholomewsorrentino9013]

Thank you, Larry, for a great episode! Is there a reason why the original headlight can’t be used instead of using LEDs, resistors and shrink tubing?

[@TheDCCGuy]

The mount is directly connected to the frame so you need a way to isolate it and the decoder from the frame. If you want the light on all the time without decoder control then yes you can leave it as is but you win’y have lights at the rear end.

[@bartholomewsorrentino9013]

@@TheDCCGuy Thanks, Larry.

[@rhondakendrick2563]

THANK U FOR THE INFO. WOULD LIKE TO GET INTO TRAIN BUT SO MUCH MONEY CANT DO IT NOW MAY B LATER I HOPE

[@grantv2313]

I wish someone would show how to isolate a sunset brass steam locomotive can motor. They're totally different and I haven't seen anybody on youtube show what needs to be done, if anything, to put a sound decoder in one of these so it doesn't burn up. I have a brass steamer popped open sitting on my bench right now. I will do some testing with my voltmeter. Thanks for the advice here.

[@TheDCCGuy]

I have a couple of them that I bought new around 1988. Both have decoders and I don’t remember any significant issues with installing them. Of course they did not have a DCC decoder socket so I had to hardwire them. Also the tender connector creates a fairly unreliable electrical connection so a keep alive is an absolute necessity. As I remember from about 30 years ago when I did the installation, you need to replace the metal screw that holds the motor in place with a plastic or nylon one and also place a layer of electrical tape between the motor and d the frame to isolate it. Can you tell me what issues you are having or how the model you have is different? I may try to find time to do a video on a brass install.

[@grantv2313]

@@TheDCCGuy Thanks for the info. There’s a brass bracket cover plate that bolts to the face of the motor and then bolts to frame. There’s a wire getting juice from that connection. I guess I don’t understand how you isolate the motor when it has power feeding through that connection. The connection from the tender has a washer under it and appears to be isolated from the frame. I’m just not sure how it’s supposed to look when done. I’m sure it’s a simple thing.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Ok, that metal bracket may be a problem. First, any metal screw attached to the motor needs to be replaced with a Delrin plastic or nylon one to provide insulation. If the metal case of the motor is in contact with the frame then you need to put in a layer of plastic electrical tape for insulation. As for the metal bracket you may be able to put a layer of tape between it and the motor case. I have seen folks actually design and 3D print replacement mounting brackets. In some locos I have built up a puddle of silicone sealant and set the motor onto it in place of using screws or brackets. You need to be vary careful though to maintain the proper angle for the drive shaft or gear. The tender connection should be OK because of the plastic washer but the electrical connection is usually poor and a keep alive is necessary to avoid intermittent loss of power. Unfortunately old brass locos weren’t actually designed to be good runners, let alone with DCC.

[@grantv2313]

@@TheDCCGuy I follow you. I was going to put a keep alive in it regardless because they’re just nice to have anyway. I would like to use the same bracket it’s using. So if I’m following you correctly, as long as the metal plate bracket has a physical barrier between it and the can motor face and a plastic screw going through it to motor, it’s ok to pick up power from frame to the metal bracket and attach power to that? The other side use a plastic screw and washer as well or don’t need to since already a washer where the pin goes down to tender? In the end how would I test it with volt meter to ensure it won’t blow a decoder? Thanks for the one on one help here! Love your channel.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Yes, test for continuity between the motor case and the frame. After you install the decoder make sure to put the locos on a service mode programming track, which are current limited somas not to kill a decodera if there is a short. Do a quick CV read of something like the address (CV1). Most decoders now are also protected against shorts but will pop if left in a shorted condition.

[@geraldjones2278]

Thanks for the video. Larry. As far as the connectivity of the Athearn motor is concerned, rather than try to switch the two copper strips to get the one designed to contact the frame on top, why not just reinstall the motor upside down? Yes, that would change the polarity but if you're going DCC, that little problem is easily corrected.

[@TheDCCGuy]

The motor is not the same top and bottom. Assuming you want to use the original Athearn mounts then the top won’t fit into them.

[@geraldjones2278]

@@TheDCCGuy Okay, but I use double-faced tape anyway. Just a thought since you have to be really careful when removing those clips and making sure those little springs don't get lost.

[@jimcubie3546]

I posted a question on # 88 about a short and you recommended that I watch this video. Thanks. Here’s a restatement of my question. I have continuity between my top positive and my left rail. In testing, one place I find continuity is between the upper motor brush and the lower motor brush. Should I? I lost one of those little springs and jerry rigged a replacement using a watch spring. Could this be the problem?

[@TheDCCGuy]

There may be continuity across the motor brushes via the windings since that is an electrical pathway but there should not be any between the brushes and the rails once the upper clip to the truck towers is removed and the lower projections are removed or flattened.

[@kurtstrains]

So if you had a ABA consist, would you wire the back loco's motor backward? Or do you set it up in the advanced consisting?

[@TheDCCGuy]

All the universal and advanced consist consisting methods prompt you for loco directions. You can also program the decoder for the correct direction when you set it up, so you don’t need to physically rewire the motor.

[@kokodin5895]

hmmm electrically insolated motor can also mean that the chasis of a model itself is not connected to the wheels right? in my home made N scale locomotive i didn't use chasis as a conductor at all, bogies take power to spring contacts that go directly to pcb's that contain electronics, i plan to build decoder into those pcb's to save space, but i never considered using the chasis as a wire is there any benefit of the electrified chasis over fully insolated one?

[@TheDCCGuy]

It really is not a good idea in my opinion since there are potential circumstances where a metal chassis can in a derailment make contact with the rail of opposite phase and create a short. You also have to look out for situations where metal shank couplers are installed in contact with the frame and then two such locos can short out if couplers of opposite phase connect.

[@dwaineruthannarmentrout1811]

Does your method to check polarity with a 9V battery work on a DCC engine with a decoder already installed? Just curious if it will move supplying DC current to it in the case of exchanging to a different mfg decoder so the wiring is installed correctly.

[@TheDCCGuy]

If the decoder is set for analog conversion it might run but I have never tried it.

[@donaldshroyer8633]

Thinking of a topic that is applicable to multiple scales, as I'm an N scaler, and one that does not require you to substantially modify your layout, what about speed detection? There are a couple of alternatives that I'm aware of, and you are likely better informed. Getting a readout of scale MPH as my trains run is a thing I can do now, but I'm open to superior methods.

[@TheDCCGuy]

Video #56 shows a portable one that can be set for HO or N scale MPH. It is good since it can be moved around. Some companies such as TCS make one that can be permanently installed on the layout but is a point measurement. I don’t know of any way to provide feedback from the decoder to a computer program that would actively give a speed readout. There might be some way to use the BEMF reading through Railcom to calculate speed but you would need to do a calibration and I don’y know of a program for that.

[@donaldshroyer8633]

@@TheDCCGuy I use a package that includes IR sensors buried in the track bed, hooked to a USB interface that is read by software that runs on a Windows PC. The version I have is wired for 2 detectors and the software has 2 speed displays. Speed can also be voice announced. I have this on a double track and can read speeds in both directions.

[@LifeOfRiley2166]

Is there a supplier for nylon screws?

[@TheDCCGuy]

I’m sure there is but you just need to dig around in the small parts aisle at Lowes, Home Depot, Hobbytown, or your local hobby shop.

[@thelittletug9321]

Larry im in need of help I have just got 3 locomotives 2 proto 2000 and a kato and they're all very loud and have gear noise and clicking but don't have cracked gears I thought that they were supposed to be good runners but there not so any help would be much appreciated

[@TheDCCGuy]

I suggest you take a closer loom at the gears o the LL models. That clicking sound is almost always an indication of split shafts. They can be very hard to see until you pull the wheels, wash them off, and examine with a magnifier. I have had success but through degreasing the gears and axle shaft, filling the opening i the gear with super glue and the shoving it onto the axles. The super glue seems to fill the cracks in the plastic and cements it to together and to the shaft.You have to work fast to get the axle spacing correct before the super glue sets up. The Kato should not have this problem so I suggest checking the grease on the gears, they may need cleaning or more grease. See my videos on lubricating locos.

[@KingTrump2024]

Smoking decoder... thats what the warranty is for :)

[@TheDCCGuy]

That depends on the age of the decoder and terms of the warranty. I know that a lot of modelers buy decoders and then put off doing the installation for months or even years. I personally have uninstalled decoders that have been sitting in drawers for over 20 years and the warranty expired years ago-want to buy some? Most manufacturers require proof of purchase, how many receipts have you squirreled away? Warranties often are more a marketing tool than a real guarantee. Of course if you do install a decoder right after you get it and it smokes then a “no fault warranty” is great.

[@lesliesavage9229]

Raspberry PIs are unreliable. I've set them up for all kinds of things, and they either fall short or just plain quit working. I had one monitoring three of my several cameras around the house. All it had to do was display them on a screen off to one side. The power failed, and then the camera monitoring through the browser on the PI refused to see them anymore. I've tried NAS, and a regular computer works much better than any PI with a drive connected through a USB port. They just don't work at all for the job intended or quit in the long run. Sure you can reprogram them again, and they work. I want something that works, and not something I have to fool around with, and the PI is not it.

[@TheDCCGuy]

You just confirmed my reservations with going down that rabbit hole. I suspect that arduinos can also be a similar distraction or at least a time sink.