It's a Skill Issue...

[@RageBadgerGaming]

So which character do you think is strongest? Which is the weakest? Lemme know!

[@Frankzoar]

I’m diggin the shackles character so far. Tons of damage. Test-less damage 👍

[@dannyf1168]

Strongest to weakest - Blinkblade (@level 1 - 2x4=8 damage non-loss, 5 damage twinstrike! with enhance slots!), Coral (when you find your rythmn), Drifter (just works), Bannerspear, Boneshaper, Fist, Geminate, Deathwalker (late bloomer, comes in clutch with AoE potential, but a liability and low impact if not handled well, could be our player though :p though last game his ability to teleport across the map was incredble). Group hasn't played much of any other classes yet. I think we struggle most when both classes are squishy in 2 player.

[@annepaulson7537]

Not enough love for Deathwalker. She was my first character in our two person party, and the MVP of several scenarios. Pushing the shadows across difficult territory proved to be invaluable.

[@CJ-ur3fx]

@@dannyf1168 Boneshaper - good for tanking , your skeletons take hits and die instead of you. Difficult to output any kind of meaningful damage. I’ve played her up to level 4 so far.

[@VaultBoy13]

Of the one's we've played... Kelp, Blink Blade, Trap, Death Walker, Fist, Drifter, Banner Spear S-Tier: Kelp, Blind Blade A-Tier: Trap B-Tier: Death Walker (gets better at higher levels) C-Tier: Fist, Drifter D-Tier: Banner Spear (probably better with 4-players than with 2-players) We're too early with Meteor to have any opinion on it, and haven't played any others. Kelp ended up with such a strong build by level 5 that it could solo most scenarios.

[@matthewmorgano610]

Deep Thoughts: I’m starting to wonder about “player composition” (as opposed to character composition) as a factor too. I think the folks that leaned into “We are all mercenaries, I am looking out for myself” are struggling while the “We are a coherent force that are working together to complete the mission at all costs” are being successful despite contradicting “the description on the box”. “Do whatever you want, I’m going to do this” crew = Trap is underpowered “Let’s all spend 15 minutes discussing the turn” crew = Trap is overpowered Again, I think the game (and maybe the world of Gloomhaven) is ALMOST advertised as “semi co-op” even though it’s really, really not. In Gloomhaven, I was often told “Just do whatever you want, I’m doing this” and those days are OVER in Frosthaven. I think this may be one of the biggest turnoffs for some. Perhaps even a perceived loss of agency due to the need to collaborate. Some of the complaints about the game may be symptoms of how specific groups are interpreting its intent.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Oh there's thousands of factors! Party size, teammates, play styles, communication, different levels each character was etc. There's no really good way to poll this, it was just a snapshot and some interpretations that one COULD glean. I'd also wager this will change over time, as the community discusses and learns strategies! This is by no means the be-all-end-all thing, I just like interpreting data. I think the bigger turn off hasn't been class design but scenario design. I think the agency loss was closer to Forgotten Circles where the Diviner player had very specific roles to play in scenarios. Just kinda felt like you were an NPC tagging along at points. The intent of the game hasn't really changed though FH vs GH. The problem is the further along in GH you got, the more items you had access to, the more mercenaries you could choose and the higher the chance of having an insanely powerful one. At that point the game is no longer the game. It's actually just "hey this is broken and we're winning" You no longer need to actually play the game. The monster cards matter less, the items become the same overpowered ones and you lose agency just doing the same repetitive thing. Frosthaven offers less of that but more reliance on coordination and if anything the increased toolkits improve your ability to use them all. Previously in Gloomhaven it was EASY to just use the same hand every time. You have giant toolkit and each scenario requires you to consider what you CAN bring. You don't always need to bring the same stuff. Now for a melee Drifter, you're picking Crushing Weight every time and that's fine. However as a Boneshaper, approaching scenarios based off of shields. Learning you have a very high hitting ally who you can strengthen more reliably now that you know they're a good target for it etc. The list is too long to fit in a comment but with less bland and generic actions in FH, I'd argue that the complaints of the game have NOT been about intent or interpreting that or even the classes. Just some people don't like complex scenarios in great volume. To be fair, it's a good point. The game by itself is a good puzzle and you don't always need wacky rules. However, the game is what it is: I don't think any group spends 15 minutes turn planning. I mean maybe there are but we're going to put that outside the standard deviation. Also my group absolutely spends VERY little time thinking, it's not about thinking time it's about approach and understanding.

[@matthewmorgano610]

@@RageBadgerGaming "Agency loss due to complexity of scenario design" is a really interesting insight. I've got all these characters that do all of these awesome things yet I need to run around pushing elevator buttons. I really wonder what was so wrong with "kill all enemies". It was fun and not predictable or repetitive due to the differences of monsters and characters.

[@67ghostLOL]

@@RageBadgerGaming very this. Our bannerspear was getting frustrated so I spent a free day playing through a scenario we had already done solo to see what was missing. I found that we just had never spent the time to actually discuss our roles and needs in the group to make our team tick. I communicated that as the boneshaper I needed someone who could impact the fight immediately to not setup and instead buy me space t1. Our bannerspear likewise needed to coordinate where he needed people and generally when he needed them there. Simple stuff like "I'll go late this turn can you end your turn next to an enemy or at least closeish to one. I'm trying to set up for a big attack this turn and next." Kind of just generic where you need people information makes the bannerspear really pop and bending backwards as a party to enable those formations has payed off big time for us. Those attacks can really feel like spamming loss's when you get a few of them in a row. We don't spend a lot of time coordinating turns anymore. Because just like a party would if this was real, fighting together has made us learn how to coordinate to be effective as a team.

[@VaultBoy13]

Playing trap effectively simply requires communication. It's not about planning a turn for 15 minutes, it's about the Trap player communicating: - "I plan on putting traps here to block off these enemies, does that work for you?" - "If I start the level with a trap here, I can place 2 more on my turn there and there which will force these monsters to take the long way to reach us." Basically, it takes 5-10 seconds of communication for Trap to be strong in 95% of the scenarios. Some classes really benefit from communication like Trap and Banner Spear. Others, like Blink Blade or Drifter don't require communication or coordination to play well.

[@quadparty]

Ah - positive traps: That's why there a bless tokens!

[@peterkay3686]

Great video! Drifter is just about the perfect example to talk about skill floor vs ceiling, isn't it?

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Absolutely is! It doesn't help that they're immediately available and above average in power at level 1 AND easy to play. I do think the skill ceiling on them is fantastic though, it's been super enjoyable but never the true shenanigans I've pulled with Trap, Meteor, Moonstar or Banner Spear.

[@revmorton]

Totally agree about Bannerspear. It has been MVP in so many scenarios. Deals huge damage and tonnes of utility.

[@Asian_Movie_Enthusiast]

Gloomhaven is at its absolute worst when someone can just walk into a room and nuke everything in 1 or 2 turns. Out of the 8 characters I've played so far (in Jaws and 2nd Edition Gloomhaven), only one was considered to be broken (Lightning Bolt) but I got bored at higher levels because I really did not have to think much any more. I like interacting with the board and using the environment to "outsmart" those dumb A.I. enemies! Way more satisfying.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

I consider two to be WAY too powerful (Lightning Bolt and Sun) and three to be absolutely broken, above those two. Any of those five just make the game much worse. Agree 100%.

[@Peter-hx3im]

​@Rage Badger Gaming you have probably said it in other videos, but what are the other 3 classes you think are OP?

[@vistraxx]

@@Peter-hx3im Eclipse, Three Spears and Music Note are considered OP in general.

[@67ghostLOL]

Our gem player was struggling because he thought he was a pure dps. I pointed out that he was 1. burning too many of the passive losses rather than losses that impact the battle directly, and 2. Not utilizing the melee form's non-loss status conditions. Once he figured out how to swap between doing his non-loss utility/chip damage turns and his big burn turns he went from struggling to one of our most valuable team members.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

oh yeah, the immediate impact losses and having large burst turns are definitely something to go for! Also the self-inflict for strong debuffs is fantastic, it pairs mega well! Glad they've been enjoying the Geminate now!

[@simong8922]

For our party, Trapper was the one character that actually broke the most scenarios. There were several scenarios in which the goal was to do something else than kill everything and trapper just created an endless cycle for the monster. (Create a long way for them, like 2-3 turns, then in the last turn before they would get through, close the path and open it on the other way - and they go back again) He did this so many times while we smashed the boss not being bothered by the minions - and then end everything in one big push-activate-trap attack against the boss.

[@jrousselle7828]

Your videos are THE BEST. I don't know who is in 2nd place, but it's a DISTANT 2nd place.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Thank you so much!!

[@Tolls4You]

Playing geminate, lack of elements at low levels has been really tough. In general, my allies make nearly no elements: the blinkblade makes between 0 and 2 elements per full rest cycle (one on the card that makes light or dark and one on the card that makes fire or frost), the drifter makes 0, and the boneshaper can sometimes make an earth or dark, and you really only have two cards that make elements (the wound everything around you that makes fire and the muddle burst that makes frost). I just have to depend on enemies to empower elements to be able to spend them on losses, and not every scenario has them.

[@joefilomena2768]

I was in the same boat, playing solo as Drifter + Geminate so zero elements from the rest of the party. It turned into swapping out a lot of cards (3-5 per scenario) based on whether enemies will generate. Many of the Geminate burns are still strong without the element, so I focus more on those. I feel like they are mostly holding their own with the Drifter now when factoring in the Geminate's extra utility.

[@BrogMan1]

The real trick with geminate is putting one of the loss cards from either stance that allows you to convert any element into Light/Fire/Ice (I usually do the fire version because those cards that use it feel more impactful). Then as soon as any ally or enemy brings an element into play you just steal it and convert it to whatever you need. Then you can just perpetually infuse that element every turn until you use it. You can sometimes have an element ready for your use for every turn of the scenario or just convert the elements the enemies want to use into something they can't just to prevent them from using their strong abilities. I almost never infuse elements myself, I just steal them from enemies or coordinate with teammates (boneshaper & deathwalker in my case) when they don't need theirs.

[@jamescorama]

Finished scenario 4 with 3 players Banner/blink/drifter I think how you described it is fantastic. Some of the class difficulty comes from team coordination. I played tons of gloomhaven, board game and digital. So I gobbled up the blinkblade. My wife is new to it all so she picked the drifter for exactly the reasons you’ve described. It’s been a blast and I’m excited to choose complex characters and see how to execute their kit.

[@virtuosoflux]

I like your pink keyboard. First time Frosthaven player, your videos popping up all over for me. Ty for the guides!

[@RageBadgerGaming]

It matches my microphone and mouse too! Eeee! You're very berry welcome! So happy you're finding them helpful!

[@oopsididitagain2077]

Snowflake is incredibly good normally as a healer/buffer, but when her conditionals pop off, she is insane! There was one time where I was trapped in a corridor with 4 enemies after the rest of my group exhausted, and being able to push AND pull all four of those enemies turn by turn through created hazardous terrain JUST from her passive abilities, on top of that WITH items, on top of that WITH another top and bottom action? Insane. you do 1 damage per target moved, plus (at that point) 3 damage per hazardous terrain movement, and in one turn--pushing adjacent enemies through the hazardous terrain and then pulling them back in? For one enemy who was push and pulled twice through 2 hazardous terrain, That's at least 14 damage on one unit. And the amount of snowflake aoe forced movement? you can do that with MULTIPLE enemies in a single turn. Snowflake is incredibly fun

[@raulinhentchel1237]

I think people are REALLY underestimating BEAR TRAP and SNOWFLAKE. (Spoilers ahead in my comment) ----- I played Snow Dancer up to level 7. It was my second class after Banner Spear and I felt so capable. Yes, sometimes we had to hit things hard and I didn't feel as good, but most of the time I was keeping my allies healed and buffed while keeping the enemies away from us. There was always something I could do to be impactful and help us win the scenario. My Personal Goal involved killing specific enemies. Every time we found those enemies I was able to kill the two I needed in that scenario. At the same time another player was on Trapper. He wasn't super feeling the class but I tell you I'm shocked to see the Trapper so low in the poll. He went full damage and by the end of it was NUKING bosses which a super trap that dealt 20+ damage and gave them COVID. People are really sleeping on the Spring effect and I don't understand how because it makes this class SO strong. Classes give us SO MUCH to think about and they are made with such care. There is a way to make them effective. Look at your cards. Look at your perks. The class will show you how to play it.

[@fregabriel]

I'm about to hit Lvl 9 with my trapper. The main mistake I made was not picking up the spring card. I started out as a mid support/dps with some heal traps but they also felt more useless when one player switched to Snowdancer. I really like the trapper overall but it often takes some brainstorming and thinking 2-3 turns in advance + overall positioning of allies and their future turns.

[@kunkudunk1133]

Having played snowflake myself, it is definitely a very strong class. At the same time, I found myself not enjoying it pretty often because what I wanted to do with it wasn’t often what my group needed. It’s tool kit is very flexible and powerful, not to mention its perks having so much power (heal 1 ward from a perk flip is just nuts). As for trap, someone else in the group is playing it and has enjoyed it so far. However it is probably one of the most party composition dependent classes in the game at least in terms of how hard they are to play. A mostly melee party will find themselves frustrated as monsters take forever to get to them, even if they can push the enemies into the traps later. Meanwhile a team with plenty of ranged options can just chuckle as the enemies flop about and get blown up from attacks from across the trap wall.

[@willhack]

I'm really interested in how player count impacts the class strength. I have this general fear that snowflake and trap will be weak in my 2-player game, whereas I would love them in a 4-player game. But I don't have anything concrete to back that up

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Oh idk, we've done some scenarios with that pairing exactly and it seemed good! At least from my experience!

[@annepaulson7537]

Good question! We're playing two player, and we have those two characters unlocked too. Both seem like they'd be better in larger groups.

[@annepaulson7537]

Although when we unlocked Snowflake and we already had Trap, my first impression was "Those two would work well together." So maybe we'll find out.

[@gabyvandinterenpmp956]

I'm not sure how people can find Trap a weak class. It is an absolute powerhouse. Also there is no better character to kick in doors. Just start cooking your next big trap while the rest of the team finishes off the room and enter the next room with a loaded and very big gun. Other than that, it is also amazingly fun to screw around with Monsters, like the Cragheart could.

[@nathanmays7926]

Banner with the perk kicks in doors better. But yea, second best!

[@redridingcape]

Ok, but the problem is in a 4 person party trapper is handicapped heavily due to just having much less room to work with which makes you less able to mitigate damage by controlling enemy movement and also less room to put traps where you want. Also there are also many scenarios where they are much weaker due to some combination of the enemies being bad for them, terrain being bad for them, and special rules being bad for them. But the worst of all is a stamina mission, because obviously you have a small hp pool and small hand size, but you also struggle with dealing damage quickly which is often very important in a stamina mission as you often need to kill something blocking your progress forward so as to not waste turns not being able to move forward. Ultimately trapper is the class I have seen/played that makes it more difficult to win the levels on average.

[@LeahLuciB]

Geminate isn't a bad class, it just has a LOT to juggle.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Yeah. Just needs to spam losses. Which imo, is fun as hell.

[@LeahLuciB]

@@RageBadgerGaming It's fun, but scary! I always worry I'll lose all my switch cards and be screwed

[@dannyf1168]

Our geminate player has struggled because if you aren't thinking REALLY hard about combos and positioning - he tends to just tickle the enemies. Once this class gets some enhancements it can be strong though. 2,2 attack is terrible level 1. But upgraded with a bottom attack poison (level 2) it's OP.

[@NMannillo]

Could these polled opinions also be due to party size? I have no way of knowing, but would assume most parties are 2 (either a pair or one person playing 2 characters). Our Bannerspear frequently gets off her formation attacks, and but we’re a foursome with a Boneshaper. I assume Snow flake would also be impacted by party size.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

oh there's loads of things that contribute to the poll, including small sample size as well. It's just taking a glance at first impressions. It will, no doubt, be different if one exercised this later this year and got more data.

[@Tolls4You]

It appears that the most common party size for players is 2, which makes the low ratings for bannerspear unsurprising due to having only a single ally to make formations with.

[@VikingKittens]

Just got my game this week. Your content has really been helping me prepare. Cheers

[@RageBadgerGaming]

You're very berry welcome!

[@joefilomena2768]

For geminate I definitely started out playing them very wrong, ending a scenario with like 8 cards and 2 xp. This is in my solo game with Drifter + Geminate (in hindsight, I wish I went Banner Spear + Geminate for element generation), but learning stamina management and when to burn cards made them a lot better. Paying attention to enemies to know when to bring and use the element conversion powers to steal enemy elements also helped a ton. I swap 3-4 cards per scenario based on enemies and objectives, which I never used to do in GH. I am almost at my first retirements, and I look forward to new classes in that this made me expect the design to be different enough for my skill to be the limiting factor when I start. That is always the most fun place for a game to be to me, actively asking me to learn and improve, so I have been loving FH so far.

[@mrtalos]

Only played blink blade to start, found him super powerful in the two player game I've played. Slow start, fast finish

[@kylekenny8748]

As an experienced Gloomhaven player I did struggle a bit with the Banner Spear as my first character in FH. I play with only one other person who was playing the Blink Blade at the time and the coordination to pull off many of the Banner Spear attack cards consistently was pretty difficult. I played the Snowflake next and absolutely dominated most scenarios with their toolkit of crowd control and passive unblockable damage so I'd say I agree with your theory overall.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Fantastic! Glad you were able to enjoy that class, it's one of my faves!!

[@kylekenny8748]

@@RageBadgerGaming I enjoyed the Banner Spear too but it definitely was a little harder getting the positioning right consistently. Thanks for all the FH content!

[@renetherock1]

With the Banner Spear, you can pretty easily position one of your ally in the right spot.. you just have to use the summon that does 0 attack but let you control it's movement. It is basically "bringing with you" what you need to do the job the easy way. And that summon can be summoned back when he dies... again and again.. with the 1xp... it allows for another character to do other stuff.

[@govetenko]

People need to give classes a genuine try, and lean into their mechanics

[@zipcc]

Our geminate doesnt burn his cards, and after every session he mentions that he could have done more but didnt want to burn cards. He knows he needs to / should burn them, but gloomhaven did him in.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

He knows what he needs to do. Loss loss loss baby.

[@revmorton]

Just opened bear trap. Loved what you wrote after I initially felt underwhelmed by the class. Any chance for a BEAR TRAP GUIDE? 😃

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Very soon. Patrons have access to the overview lol. It'll be released this month.

[@enomiellanidrac9137]

We started our campaign recently and my first impulse was to look at the Drifter and it indeed looked like a powerful lv 1 kit hard to screw up, but it also looked a bit too straightforward for my taste so I studied the other starters and hesitate between the Boneshaper, the Deathwalker and the Blinkblade. In the end I chose the latter and although we only played two scenario and I don't regret it as it turned out to be pretty fun, certainly tricky to play, but I've been able to do pretty well with it. Also as one of my teammate took the Bannerspear, my good mobility and initiative range allowed me get myself in position for his conditional attacks and judging from the result I agree that it outperform the drifter as long as you can get good teamwork out of the group.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Right! Banner Spear is fantastic with just a tiny bit of planning and teamwork. Obviously with no teamwork you have to basically rely entirely on your summons and banners, which isn't bad but you should keep that in mind if you're aware of your group's mindset absolutely yes!

[@matthewmorgano610]

Let's see if I have this right: "Classes that Alisandra has made guides for" are being played well and "Alisandra has not made guides for" are confusing and being misplayed and this is OUR fault? I'm just saying, I had to learn Trap WITHOUT a Rage Badger tutorial. [Hashtag Jokes!]

[@RageBadgerGaming]

lmao that's the one I'm recording Friday! It's one of my faves! lol.

[@matthewmorgano610]

@@RageBadgerGaming I'm not sure I've ever "looked forward" to a release of a youtube video... which is strange actually. Any idea when it might hit the tube? (No rush, just curious! I know how long post can take!)

[@RageBadgerGaming]

@@matthewmorgano610 SADLY delayed. I'm job hunting atm then having to help run PAX. The plan is April sometime.

[@jasonpries4817]

I started playing the Trap and was a bit skeptical to start with, but really wanted to try it out. We are now about 9 scenarios in with the Trap and he is amazing. The amount of control and damage that can be done is beyond what I believed could happen. This is likely one of the most fun classes I’ve played between Gloomhaven and Frosthaven.

[@Frankzoar]

Trapper is the all-star of my team. Enemy movement manipulation is so effective in FH.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

RIGHT??

[@donnyrides]

I hope you do a trap guide. I just retired BlinkBlade after only 7 scenarios. I loved my blinkblade and I'm tempted to play it again. We have Trap unlocked too and I tempted to try it as well. I'm struggling to talk myself into it because we have a 4 player party with lots of summons and banners on the board so I don't want to impede their movement with my traps. 1. I hope you make a trap guide, 2. I'd love your thoughts on trap in a 4 player with summons team comp.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Trap guide is actually written, I just need to record it. This weekend, ideally!

[@donnyrides]

@@RageBadgerGaming AWESOME!!! Thanks

[@blakecurry3880]

I do look forward to the trap guide. That's the only class we unlocked so far (we got a personal goal that unlocked a side quest, and then a chest gave a side scenario so we had largely been ignoring the main story lol) and just glancing at his cards, he looked frustrating because a bunch of in-the-way traps looked hard to manage. I was going to try it anyway once I retire my Blink Blade, but have at least 10 more scenarios to go before I can do that because MY goal is to get 150xp from ability cards, and I have been trying my best and getting...10 per session so it's gonna be awhile. TL;DR a trap guide would be helpful for 2 months from now when I get to retire and try a second class.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

I am recording the trap guide later this week actually :P It's going to have a slightly different intro format with more visuals and then dig into the cards.

[@cjmizanin1]

Snowflake is underrated. In straight "kill stuff" scenarios, she can be weak - but so many scenarios have weird win conditions, and I find that movement / mobility can often be the key to winning. Snowflake excels in movement - and on those scenarios where you have to escort allies and you can speed up their pace, it makes all the difference.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Not only that but enabling allies to help kill stuff is key, also her kill stuff is just not as DIRECT. I feel like that's more important to note. She CAN but it isn't as easy but she's got control and support AND damage if you play it a certain way.

[@cjmizanin1]

@@RageBadgerGaming Snowflake makes scenarios that require movement "easy mode". I'm not a big fan of many of the locked characters, but she and Coral are awesome.

[@dannyf1168]

Like most of the weaker classes Snowflake lacks adaptability. I've no confidence in sending her off into a room alone. Which many scenarios require in 2p games to finish before fatigue. Come hell or high water - enemies need to die, and spawns will keep coming. The slower you kill the harder it gets. Like any support class - she's a great 3rd or 4th character to have around.

[@pyrrhus0160]

I absolutely loved my Banner Spear. It has been sad to see people not enjoy them. Mid level front lining and just keeping my team always happy/healthy.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

They're so strong! Esp once you hit that momentum there!

[@mattf9737]

Agree with you about Trap. I just started playing it last game session, and it is amazing. It lives up to its top complexity rating, but done correctly it is absolutely bonkers.

[@iamspamus8784]

We start Frosthaven on Friday. Yay! I have tons of GH, JotL, and Forbidden Circles (more like forgotten circles...) under my belt. I think these types of analyses often don't factor in player count. Having not played it, but Bannerspear seems to be a better companion to boneshaper (with all of the summons) or a larger party. So, things like that can affect the ratings. RBG, thanks for the good video and all of the others too! Can't wait to start.

[@chrisdaileader5539]

Floored at Banner Spear being listed as "Mid" power in that poll. Admittedly, I am the most experienced player in my group but in both 2p and 3p compositions the BannerSpear has just proven to be completely overpowered. The Boneshaper's summons make it easy to set up every Banner card -- especially with some of the "grant movement" bottom actions -- and the defense and damage output combined with solid movement have just made the class feel like it reduces the difficult of each scenario by 1.5-2. At this point I'm just frustrated I drew a personal quest that you simply cannot complete quickly, because I am so ready for a higher-complexity class.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

I feel the same way but I realize every group has their own dynamic and maybe some communicate less? I've always been able to pull off the formations so.... yeah, it's great!

[@somefishhere]

Our least experienced player, ie the person who doesn’t bother to learn monster movement or read the monsters drawn cards, struggles with Banner Spear. He is always surprised when something happens and often more than not he is doing a move 2 attack 2 because his allies are not in position for a formation. So yes it’s a skill issue

[@Kentchangar]

In your opinion: which classes are the easiest to run besides Drifter (counting unlockable ones)?

[@eromerdop5675]

We're only a handful of scenarios in and I've got to say I think the balance of the starters is great. I've had a look at a few locked characters (I know! I peeked at Xmas presents as a kid too), and they at first looked really daunting, then I broke down the signature cards or common themes across the cards and started to see a pattern of play. I can't wait to get some retirements and play them. If the starters I'm playing Bannerspear and I'm really liking her, especially after some perks, she his consistently and the formations are getting easier to nail. There's been scenarios where all our characters have been MVP which probably suggests a good balance too

[@Jaaskle]

OHHH SNAP! always thought tinkerer was incredibly underrated in a 4 player a gh starting 6 party

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Oh at level 1? Yeah Tink has some good shit, stun shot is extremely strong. Just doesn't scale well, ofc.

[@blakecurry3880]

We have a first time player and he is Banner Spear and he is struggling to be useful, often being left behind in the first room because of poor movement. We are working on it with him, but he basically does zero formation attacks and has no mobility whereas my Blink Blade is zipping all over the place.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Oh boo, definitely should be using the two move 4s when possible and saving them for burst movement. At least should be able to land combined effort and rallying cry, those two are the easiest to do!

[@BernieTime1]

With the Geminate, our group was turned off to the class because of it's managing two sets of cards. IMO it would have been better as an unlock class later, especially after people have had some time to get back into Gloomhaven's style of play. We gave our least-skilled player the Drifter and she struggled with it for the first 3 sessions before everything clicked.

[@BrogMan1]

I don't really think the two hands of cards is that complicated. I never played Gloomhaven and started in my group of 4 with Geminate and have been loving it. I take like 75% of the loot in every scenario, contribute some important AOE dmg and status effects, light tank, manipulate elements, and heal. I feel like the class is extremely versatile and I achieved both of the masteries on like scenario 5.

[@BernieTime1]

@@BrogMan1 I'm not saying the class is bad, but I play with a bunch of elderly people and I don't have the time or inclination to play the game for them. I ended up going with the Blinkblade, which has been a lot of fun (for me). What I love about this video is the discussion about skill floor/ceiling as I can see it play out in real-time with my group.

[@BrogMan1]

@BernieTime ohh yeah, I totally get that. I host a weekly, public board game night and I've made the mistake a couple times of letting a new person join in on a more complicated game like Betrayal before realizing the last game they played was Sorry like 15 years ago. Now I know to suggest new people to play simpler games.

[@mikewyman1]

Hi! Thanks for the video, really interesting. Do you think some of the higher skill ceiling classes benefit from lower player counts? That would be a slower developing, somewhat more predictable game board? We did a two player geminate/coral against a boss and it was cake. On the other hand, in four player our bannerspear struggles to get things to set up with his late initiative.

[@Timlagor]

I think Geminate is the worst: it's OK for power but it's an awful lot of mental work that's not terribly rewarding. It's definitely strong in expert hands but can so easily run itself into a dead end -I particularly didn't like getting screwed over by not having an attack target when my initiative arrived.

[@Timlagor]

Some classes also need your team mates to be skilful (or just exist) you''re looking at like 20 votes though.

[@Dyskresiac]

I've never understood the stamina argument at least in 4p games. Yeah so I exhaust. So what? I took out 40% of the enemies MYSELF and I'm 25% of our team. As THAT ONE CLASS I exhausted nearly every scenario in GH. But I went down in a blaze of glory every time. In FH I am playing Geminate. Right where I belong.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Burning losses in Frosthaven #gloomhaven #frosthaven

[@GarrettChan]

I only play Vermling well, so I may have another issue :p. Sorry for the bad joke. Honestly, Trapper is one of my favorite class there. It's somewhat janky to play when you first play it, but when you know the flow, it feels good to play. Though, have to admit, 9 cards, almost don't have room for mistakes. Besides throwing a mega trap in enemies' faces, I really like the Strengthen trap where it's a 2-turn buff for your ally, and you don't need to really coordinate whether your ally is going to attack. You just put it there and take it when necessary.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

I REALLY WISH that my group could use the Strengthen trap. Due to having a boneshaper and another character who doesn't attack like ever, it's basically been impossible to justify the slot. I mostly just use them as hilarious disarms lol.

[@GarrettChan]

@@RageBadgerGaming oh yeah, that's true. The other is Tank Drill or Snowflake or something like that? Can't think of others lol. This is one thing I like about FH is that there are situational good cards but not too niche so you need to think about your team.

[@SuperPreacherX]

Totally agree on the Trap , one of the best/strongest and most fun of all classes! 💪

[@JohnWard-te8pk]

We're playing two-player. So far, the drifter is MVP for overall reliability. He's with our lower-skilled player. The Blink blade was very powerful but one-dimensional. Does a ton of damage and is easy to play initiative shenanigans, what you call weaving. After several adventures that were different goals than just kill the enemy, I was a little frustrated at not having more control. At level 3, I was able to collect enough gear to retire and I pulled out the Snowdancer. The raw damage is lower, but I love all the things you can do in scenario. Wish I would have had her when we were trying to escape a predicament and the baddies wanted to stand in the doors. Edit: forgot to say that I would love to see a trap guide too because it looks a bit fiddly.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Trap guide is being recorded soon! Yeah, versatility really pays off! Surprised though because BB is USUALLY pretty good at having great ability to handle a bit. Drifter is usually only good at numerics so that makes sense.

[@mobiusprimal]

The issue I find playing my Bannerspear is that no one in my party (blink, geminate, and deathwalker) aside from me is willing to take a hit. I need someone to go faster than me, and stand next to a monster, and then have me go before the monster (who often refuses to cooperate), and hopefully my formation attack can kill the enemy off before they get to hit back. For all that work, it's so much easier to just have blink go up and stab the thing a bunch of times. I know I can summon the reinforcement and put him where I want, but now I have to babysit a 1hp guy that no one else will go to the floor for. I should be able to just rely on teammates anyway. So since I can't reliably get formations to work, I'll just go buff, shield, ranged build. Which makes me a worse version of GH angry face.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

oh if THAT'S your party and no one wants to take a hit, that's definitely an issue. Esp with Geminate and Blink Blade. Both can take a couple hits.

[@67ghostLOL]

This definetely sounds like a coordination issue. I've physically shoved my fragile boneshaper body into a hit (I have 12 cards I can burn one) to enable bannerspear to do his thing. Burn 1 to kill an enemy was worth at the time to our party. I reccomend discussing that hit aversion with your team. You only need 2 cards and an hp each and even less than that if the scenario lets you exhaust.

[@mobiusprimal]

@Rage Badger Gaming The bigger problem is in the opening turns of a room, taking one hit means you'll probably take multiple hits because you'll be on equal distance from mobs, but if my partners (or summon) go first, they take focus.

[@nicklachen5060]

You raise some great points. I'd like to add, though, that while yes you can use certain abilities to zone enemies, it doesn't really work in every case and consistency is one of the strongest things in GH/FH. (part of the reason taking -1's out of mod deck was so strong and not in FH, partly anyway), and imo, why partly the drifter is a solid merc; they are pretty consistent in abilities. So some of those locked abilities may work on some monsters, but not say a high moving night demon or most ranged monsters. And so while it works here and not there makes the merc on average harder to play or weaker since they could be really really good in this scenario, but uh oh, this scenario is completely different and so your abilities are not hitting quite the same.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

The thing is the class has more than just zoning enemies, it has healing, it has multi-turn advantage granting, it has dumpstering bosses. All while having great zone control! Consistency for attack modifiers is a very different thing, it's ability to predict your action will pay off as you want. I'd say Trap has by far the GREATEST ability to do that because most of the effects are static value. It's harder to get more consistent than that!

[@Viridye]

Played for 5 classes and it was ok, but waiting for my party to finnish other game so I just don't play frosthaven myself. For bannerlord I had problems to get what I am even doing with it, skill problem for me, less fun because I am bad with it :D Drifter was one of easiest to get and is interesting. Blink Blade was one of most fun classes I tried. Boneshaper is ok class and ok fun, avg fun level. Deathwalker, tried and without more youtube how to I am lost with it.

[@Darkii1smile]

Trap actually can be really weak if the scenario separates you from the party and he is far behind on lvl, but if he can have anybody near him, he starts to shine ✨

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Even in that case the path blocking works regardless of level and the damage scaling, I've not had problems with splitting up when the blink blade was leading and I was the new character. It was a weird Marcel scenario too lol

[@gabyvandinterenpmp956]

Any character that is alone and far behind in level is going to be weak. Scenarios that force a team split are best ventured with a party that is level-balanced.

[@calwu]

My only issue with dancer was when I was playing solo and paired her with the trapper. Terrible duo lol. Made me wish I was playing the drifter or deathwalker with the dancer, would've definitely been better.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Actually uh, my partner and I were playing that duo and we thought it was fantastic synergy lol.

[@calwu]

@@RageBadgerGaming they had moments of good synergy but in order to deal the damage I needed in some of the scenarios I had to burn the dancers cards, especially in those scenarios where enemies spawned every turn. I couldn't shell the damage out quick enough to deal with them before running out of cards without burning

[@dwarf74]

That's one of the most powerful duos in the game....

[@calwu]

@@dwarf74 it's cool with pulling enemies into the traps and things. If the class could produce traps faster and move them around more, I would agree. I ran them together for about 10 scenarios before I retired the snow dancer. Even with the card that allows me to turn loot into traps hasn't created enough opportunities for me either. This is all later scenarios too.

[@jimmystrangus2687]

That's a dream combo though!

[@erictorres8496]

Trapper plays similar to Craigheart, and ppl loved Craig.

[@dannyf1168]

Bannerspear works out great if you get it right. Drifter works out great no matteer what you do. So "strong to weak" can be an indicator of flexiblity and ease to play well. If someone fails at formations 50% of the time - the class is weak. Lot of my players will never try to predict monster behaviour - even after 50 games. They are going to shoot from the hip mostly.

[@RageBadgerGaming]

I mean the difference in explaining skill floor/ceiling is that how often do you have whiffed turns due to coordination, monster behavior, success in breaching doors, coordinating rests etc. The failing formations is under the "skill floor" category, I'd say strong to weak isn't as much of a consideration here because both are very strong starters. I do think that people are just struggling with BS and of course that's why they're ranking Drifter higher, you can't actually screw it up. So of course those shoot from the hip players will vote for the Drifter is good!

[@dannyf1168]

@@RageBadgerGaming The question now is the skill floor above an average players normal ability?

[@jimmystrangus2687]

Do you ever do playthrough videos? I'd be interested in seeing you play Trap in a scenario with fliers and ranged enemies. Regarding Snowflake, I just retired that class and I really love it. In your snowflake video I asked a question about how much ice you can reliably generate so that you can take advantage of the persistent loss where enemies take 1 damage when you move them. In this video you addressed the same point in a slightly different way, saying (at about 14:55) that you can expect 2-3 damage per rest cycle from that card. That sounds about right to me, perhaps a bit on the low side. However, just thinking in terms of opportunity costs, you could also play your Snow Fox as a persistent loss and have that attack pretty much every round for the rest of the scenario. It'll do way more damage than 2-3 per rest cycle, and I think it's a great choice for a +1 summon damage enhancement as soon as you can afford it. I also think the Snowflake has a fantastic AMD, so having a summon around to help you flip cards is great. I also think the persistent loss that lets you heal for 2 is super powerful. So those are my two choices for persistent losses for Snowflake, as I think the damage-upon-move one underperforms compared to those two. Insert the usual caveat about taking the best cards for a certain scenario, yada yada yada...

[@RageBadgerGaming]

Just a heads up, the 2-3 is the floor for that if you're using it effectively. The high end in 4p we've seen up past 10 in a rest cycle. Obviously not every rest cycle. The Summon also needs protecting, you can't just let it go and watch it do all of that every turn. It's good though. The heal 2 passive also very strong. That's a good pick. They're all just very different ways to play. Also in general if you're going push/control build you're usually knocking/moving enemies into paths or out of range that effectively operate as disarms or utilizing or creating scenario elements for extra damage. Food for thought. They all work though, that's basically it lol

[@jimmystrangus2687]

@@RageBadgerGaming Yeah but as you mentioned in your Snowflake guide, the rider on the text of the Snow Fox makes him remarkably hard to get hit!

[@RyanFinley]

The banner spear is viable but the fun parts of the class are hard to pull off. Looking at the class before playing, it looks like a cool AOE damage dealer that's tanky. In ideal conditions/positioning, that is very true. But it's a little sad how seldom you can really bust out that AOE damage that the cards sell you - good communication or not. The big part that causes such an issue here is initiative and monster AI. You not only need allies in the right place, you need the enemies in the right place as well. I end up throwing a lot of weaker feeling ranged attacks, and every once in awhile getting off a cool AOE move. It just doesn't match the expectation of the class. (Oh, and that ally movement stuff is great but it's so often limited to JUST your allies moving, so you can't also get into position at the same time.)

[@jimmystrangus2687]

I wholeheartedly agree with this. It would be nice if you could pull off your formation attacks 100% of the time you plan on using them. But that doesn't happen. You are often screwed over by monster initiative (including your best attempts at initiative weaving) and oddball monster cards like a melee monster deciding he's going to step back and do a ranged attack. In those cases, it's hard for a Banner Spear to do anything more than a default +2 attack.

[@heitortremor]

>skill issue 😏

[@benjaminbaxter9931]

I love your videos, and have enjoyed your coverage of FH. However, you kinda just said, 'git gud!' About the trap class. Not everyone comes to the game with the same skill level and understanding of the monster algorithm. Honestly we have one player who handles the monsters for the table (me), and expecting every player to handle that type of calculation is a little ableist, especially with the simple communication rules in effect. I am fine with their being classes that have medium skill floors, but it can be pretty disheartening for a player to excitingly open a new box and find out that the character they got was beyond their skill level. Maybe a solution could be as simple as marking difficulty on the closed box as a warning before players open them and get too excited. But even then it feels like there could be some conversation about skill floors and if there should be a base level that is at least functional for all players. All that said, the snowflake and trap work amazingly well together, and maybe that is something worth bringing up in your video. Pairing trap with characters like snowflake helps a lot.

[@TheKnightArgent]

"Johnnies?" #iamold

[@RageBadgerGaming]

lol usually folks who use Johnny/Timmy/Spike ARE older but usually just means you were into the MtG scene in the late 90s/early 00s.

[@nicholasshaw5260]

need trap guide

[@RageBadgerGaming]

It's coming in April.

[@somefishhere]

Definitely people voted on Geminate without having played it.