It's all DOWNHILL from here... Your Game Design Opinions and Insights

[@GhostBombGames]

God the tone on some of these comments.... It's good you have such a good sense of humor about them.

[@gabrielnorena]

As you said, Deck Building as an in-game mechanic was introduced first in StarCraft: The Board Game (2007). Paradoxically, in StarCraft, an american style thematic game, Deck Building was much less random than how it is used nowadays in “modern” eurogames.

[@sebasculin3739]

Old Board Games are better was an incredibly bad take. Even from the sales side... 1. They all released with far less market competition 2. Almost all of those are from the same global toy company, with huge distribution, resources and brand recognition 3. Marketing budget alone; the Landlords Game was not flying off the shelves, a better marketed Monopoly was with hundreds of versions tied with popular IPs. 4. Sales of these classic games are slowing down anyway, so maybe they'll stop being the most popular.

[@jonydude]

Not board games, but Sid Meier is "ghost written" plenty. He directly coded the first Civilisation game, but oversaw the rest from a distance. Each one has a different person directing the entire experience.

[@carlosmoreno9710]

When you said poker and deckbuilding game I instantly thought of Balatro which is successful but as a videogame though

[@High-Tech-Geek]

Yup, Balatro is a hugely successful poker themed deck building video game.

[@closedchill5243]

Board games are socially interactive and pit you against other minds in a way that Video games don't quite capture and books don't at all.

[@Kindlesmith70]

Funny. Books can get rewrites/corrections/updates. Telephone book, dictionary, encyclopeia, records, the bible... some novels get combined into special packages, get grammar/spelling corrections. Board games can get editions which will correct errors, and may even change how some aspects work. Sounds very much how some video games get treatment. Everything is derived from something. Books are not an exception to that. Neither are stories. One might think the person that made such a leap of logic beleives language always existed, and never changed nor expanded ever, and beleives books were always the medium of the written word.

[@bobsteel1981]

I agree with your comment on the difference between Deck Construction and Deck Building. I have had that conversation with people a few times. As you say: Deck Construction happens prior to the game beginning - maybe with a few tweaks to the actual deck during the game out of pre-chosen cards (I play Arkham Horror LCG and there are "Bonded" cards there that get added to your deck when you play another card, also some of the scenario cards may add other cards to your deck). But a Deck Construction game is one where the game is building the deck during the game from the same base (though some do have a unique card or two in your starting decks). A very different feel between the two. For older games being better: there are a lot of old games that I will still play - and of course Chess and Go are some of the oldest games and are still extremely popular (though my memory isn't good enough for either :) ). But even my favourite old game is nowhere near as good as a lot of the newer games. When it comes to comparing books, computer games and board games, yes there are a lot of differences, but there are some similarities. They are all made for an audience for example and if they want to sell well they do have to listen to that audience as much as following the creator's vision. It's a tough balancing act: the designer may make a game / write a story that is perfect for them, but if no-one else likes it they aren't going to be successful (there's nothing wrong with them doing that if they are prepared to self-publish, but any publisher is going to want a return). I think that is a problem with modern computer games and books (and film and TV): they are too often sticking entirely to the vision of the designer / writer, even when the public are saying they don't want this - or the publisher is stepping in and forcing changes they want that the public and the creator don't. Board games seem to have avoided the same so far, though there are hints around the edges that it is working its way in.

[@aos-archive]

The other thing is that the older games have been known by a WIDER audience. New board games will ever only be known by people who actively seek new games. tons of people who gerw up on board games and think nothing about it can easily pass down snakes and ladder to their kids since that's all they know in the boardgame world.

[@Awol991]

Also Joe, not a gamer goes to thebig-box store looking a family game, he gets star-wars monopoly because he knows monopoly and likes star wars. The fact Monopoly is a horrible game is something Joe is not aware of, he has no knowledge or experience in selecting games. For someone who is not a gamer to get Wingspan or Ark Nova is a great scary leap into the unknown.

[@MMmk1]

The idea of selling the game to a well-known board game designer (8:00) is so interesting.

[@danielmalinen6337]

What can be done has also narrowed considerably, which makes it difficult to design new games. My friend is planning his own board game and it's one battle and repeated redesign because there are always new parts of the game that are asked to be changed in the feedback because this or that mechanic or this or that idea are patented or copyrighted. And this has been exhausting for everyone in many different ways so that my friend has decided to abandon his game completely and bury the project.

[@AdaminWales]

If it’s any help, game mechanisms can’t be copyrighted and are very rarely patented. So it’s unlikely that this would be an issue for your friend. Though I understand the frustration of creating a game idea only to find somebody else has used that idea before. While it’s unlikely to be a legal issue, it can make it difficult to make your own game stand out. Obviously, if the game infringes intellectual property because of its use of characters, or an in-game world, that’s a different problem because of trademarks. You couldn’t produce a Marvel game without permission for example.

[@ambierona]

I've played BoxONE and NPH was actually very involved in the game. I highly recommend it if you like puzzle games and escape rooms!

[@stillbuyvhs]

8:22 Sure. "Bulls and Bears" (1936) was marketed as the latest game created by Charles Darrow, but it was really created by Parker Brothers' staff. (Possibly by Clarence Paul Meier, who did the artwork for the game.)

[@High-Tech-Geek]

I do know that in the video game world, Sid Meier's Civilization games were not all programmed by Sid Meier, even the one's with his name attached.

[@CrapE_DM]

Considering NPH's games say "Presented By", I'm pretty sure he had next to no say on their design

[@stillbuyvhs]

@5:34 I contest this. We've gradually learned to create more complex games, but complex is not better. I believe newer board games tend to be too complex, which limits the hobby. A limited number of decisions per turn, with great long term effects, is preferable. That's why "Monopoly" & "Ticket to Ride" are great games. Each turn you have at most three decisions, but overtime those decisions add up to great effects.

[@youhavegottobekidding]

Monopoly also has very little strategy and it's been proven by computer simulation that it's basically just Candyland with more RNG because if you play with anyone who has half a brain cell, you'll never be able to negotiate a deal that benefits you because all statistical information is face-up. There are mechanically simple but strategically deep modern board games like Onitama and Coup that are infinitely better than Monopoly.

[@stillbuyvhs]

6:26 I contest this as well; it assumes art & game design have a singular concrete goal, & that we can direct out efforts towards that goal. But art has different goals in different times & places. All art is for edification, but the method of edification we prefer may change. One culture may find a completely random dice fest entertaining; another prefers a geometry puzzle; another prefers a number puzzle. All are valid games, & one is not an improvement upon another. Right now we seem to be in a number puzzles kick, but who knows what we'll prefer in 10 years? If we stop liking number puzzles, does that mean Wingspan & Splendor are suddenly less worthy games? No. It merely means we've changed as a culture.

[@stillbuyvhs]

8:00 The Matthew principle comes into play here. The most famous designer on the box will get the credit, even if they did little or no work.

[@thebomber11]

board games and far closer to video games. The one I am making is meant to feel as close to playing a video game as possible. The similarity the commenter does have that aligns though is many of the greatest video games were made a while ago, and it's only when a studio drops something like baldurs gate that we really see how far we've come

[@lrgui9792]

It's a very narrow definition of technology, what's being discussed. There's so much information technology being created everywhere as things evolve, so much in the realm of design. In this sense, there's no separation between boardgames, video games, or books. Design technology and great ideas are always being created for all of them, as they naturally evolve as art forms. Now, the popularity of things is even another beast. It might be even possible that in a given period, a given generation would be sick of computers and high tech, then experience a boon and rediscovery of board games, so they might become more popular than video games. Who knows? The future is vast.

[@AdaminWales]

That’s a really interesting perspective! I agree, technology is causing a lot of problems right now (it probably always has done, but it’s particularly polarising at the moment) so one possible future might see a return to analogue things!

[@thedspenguin]

oooh, it's my comment! does this mean I'm famous now? jokes aside, thank you for covering it even more in-depth than in your reply. gotta admit, that initial video title scared the hell out of me.

[@Skyrodin]

I love how you react to those comments in depth. I also disagree with the boardgame/videogame/book comparison. It's a bit measuring with double standarts there. On one side the commenter says board games don't get better with technology but on the other side he says video games do. I think Tetris for example is still a video game that gets played a lot. Compared to the "test of time" argument that makes it a "good game". Whereas most modern games are forgotten when the "next big thing" gets released. I hope one can get what I mean. I do know one person who was involved in Ice Cool - I think you know Janis as well. He is also one half of a boardgame KZbin channel. And I think I saw in a documentary that Matt Leacock and Tom Lehmann actually worked together on the Pandemic Expansions. I love what you do, Adam, and I still tell everyone that you are my biggest influence and part of the reason why I want to become a published designer. Keep up the great work ❤ I really hope I'll be able to meet you for a few minutes in Essen this year after we couldn't make it happen in 2023.

[@AdaminWales]

Thanks for watching, and sharing with others! :) I agree about the video games. It makes sense. Yes, I know Janis, Egils & Edgars who all worked on Ice Cool. I don’t know who (if any) took the lead on it, or came up with the original idea etc. And I don’t know if there were others involved who I’m not aware of. I’m afraid I won’t be at Essen Spiel this year sadly due to home and work commitments. Hopefully in 2025! I should have at least one big game launching there next year :)

[@Skyrodin]

@@AdaminWales Oh that's a shame but home and work commitments are definitely more important - then I'll wait for next year :D Or maybe there is a possibility if I can do my planned UK trip next spring where I would go and visit some people from the youtube boardgame community (one of them living in Cardiff) And of course I'm super excited to see next year's launch! I already put Happy Hoppers on my wishlist for this year since this will be my Christmas present for my nieces :D

[@DodgyDan4]

Great video as always, although I don't agree that books are "passive" entertainment - I think they are probably the single most engaging form of entertainment/media! Every reading experience is entirely personal and unique to how the reader reads - if you mentally switch off, you're not really doing anything just looking at paper. Whereas in boardgames there is an ebb and flow to the levels of player engagement and interactivity.

[@AdaminWales]

I didn’t mean to suggest that people would switch off while reading a book. I was more making the observation that the content of a book remains the same regardless of the reader, while the narrative of a game (digital or analogue) changes depending on player actions. Passive and active may have been the wrong words for what I was trying to convey.

[@DodgyDan4]

​@@AdaminWalesThank you, I understand :) have a lovely evening!

[@stillbuyvhs]

1:58 Ticket To Ride is already 20 years old; its proven itself. Same with Catan. The ones to watch will be Wingspan, maybe Splendor; not sure how old Splendor is.

[@johnjones6115]

Your video was timely- I'm working on a game where the "AI" is controlled by a system directly inspired by another game. It's not an exact copy, of course, but the DNA will probably be pretty evident. Do I drop the original designer a note, do I credit them with an "inspired by the X combat system by Designer Y?"

[@AdaminWales]

I would look at how other games handle it. I have only ever seen credit given in this way in a small number of instances. For example, most deckbuilding games do not credit Donald X Vaccarino (creator of Dominion) even though that is clearly their inspiration. There is no harm in reaching out to the original creator though, out of courtesy. My concern would be, what do you do if they say “No, I do not want you to use that mechanism!” Are you then duty bound to abandon your project? 😅 It also depends on how “unique” that original system was. For example, Red Rising credited Fantasy Realms as its inspiration. But Fantasy Realms was a very distinctive game and Red Rising suffered from the comparison (because it was more complex and arguably lost some of the charm). I don’t think many people had a problem with the mechanism being reused in this way though.

[@andresep]

Un video muy interesante.

[@foyoGames]

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