It's Goku Time! - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Baby Arc Part 14

Goku, Trunks, Pan, and Giru return to Earth to find it taken over by Baby and its populace totally under its sway. It's our four heroes against the world. I mean, it's our three heroes... Two heroes? Who am I kidding? It's just Goku.
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[@olserknam]

The GT staff was really good at following Toriyama's footsteps. They, too, studied the art of coming up with things on the fly

[@matt0044]

And sadly got a D- while Toriyama got by with at least a solid B+.

[@zane1790]

In Trunks' possession case, I always assumed that since when Baby possessed him Trunks was strong enough to resist and expel him, the egg wouldn't be strong enough either. As it is a parasite, it laid dormant feeding off Trunks' power until it was strong enough to truly possess him. Why that moment lines up so well... convenience

[@theking8347]

Basically, while Baby visually looks less and less like Vegeta with each form until he's basically just a human version of himself, his personality on the other hand does become more like Vegeta (when he was evil).

[@elegantcat1496]

but that sounds kinda good actually

[@bgvo4373]

No, he’s way worse than Bejita. Vegeta didn’t understand compassion or being good until he learned. Baby knows good and evil, but chooses to be evil.

[@louisvictor3473]

I think the becoming like old vegeta is sort of "coincidence". Because Baby has always been a muderous arrogant hypocritical sadist. He was quite literally all the bad things he believed the saiyans to be as well. The whole "saiyans are evil, justice for my race" thing, evidently always a mere excuse. He didn't care the remaining saiyans were good people, he didn't care how many other people he used or killed for that "justice". It is, quite literally, Baby's real colors shining through.

[@BGMfan]

Since Baby ultimately becomes a Great Ape, it can be said that Baby is steadily becoming no less of the monster he instinctually sees the Saiyans as, until he physically becomes the apex Saiyan form the Tuffles fell to. Him having a more brash voice and becoming more confrontational toward a single Saiyan for the sake of a good fight can then be seen as gradual stepping stones to get to that point, him becoming like an evil Saiyan through his own evil vandetta. Since Goku becomes a Super Saiyan 4 through controlling his bestial Great Ape nature by remembering his life and family as an Earthling, to the point that seeing the Earth is what kickstarts the Great Ape sequence, it's a nice contrast: Goku has evolved beyond the Saiyans' past while Baby is stuck in and revels in it.

[@richborn6700]

Man that was such a satisfying read I think I need to step outside for a cigarette

[@louisvictor3473]

I see what you're saying, though I think that had been baby's real colors all along. The more power drunk he felt, the less able he was to hide behind the holier than thou schtick.

[@marxist-leninist-protagonist]

@@louisvictor3473 Yeah. I think Baby would be an actual good guy with a tragic negative arc. Kinda from Granolah to Baby

[@Thisdude850]

That would be nice if this was the case, but Baby was evil from the start so there is no arc of him becoming more evil since he has been this way already, heck now that his revenge is over, all he is gonna do is try to take over the galaxy.

[@bgvo4373]

What are tuffles?

[@olserknam]

Finally someone notices Revenge Death Ball being an evil opposite to Genki Dama, I love that

[@crystalfire7x]

It won't be the only evil opposite to Genki Dama in the series.

[@CommanderButter]

tbh I don't dislike Baby's design since he feels like he's morphing Vegeta into being something that's more Baby and less Vegeta. Admittedly it does kinda take away from the shock of seeing an infected Vegeta tho

[@Okamikurainya]

What could have been cool, IMO, is Goku could have realized the inevitability of becoming infected... And then allows himself to become absorbed by Buu to become immune and keep fighting, one way or another.

[@Nobodyatall6022]

I personally prefer Super Baby 2 over 1 but I see your point. If he looked more like Vegeta we could have gotten a bigger emotional impact. Then again you could interpret this as Baby turning Vegeta's body into his own.

[@Zacman1123]

I always thought that

[@crystalfire7x]

Yeah. That seems like a convincing point there.

[@ThomasGameComicFan]

I thought so when that weird haircut Super Baby 2 had was supposed to mirror his own weird head design as well.

[@marxist-leninist-protagonist]

I love that Baby fixes Vegeta's hairline

[@kmgyening]

​@@marxist-leninist-protagonistDoes it though? Lol

[@pascalsimioli6777]

17:10 they could've easily written it as Baby having an existential crisis: he's convinced he is control of every person he takes but goku makes him realize that he hasn't even bothered trying to infect him all throughout their fight and Baby Vegeta could say something along the lines "why would I need you when I'm the elite here?" something to make you see that Baby involuntarily took some of vegeta's traits hating himself even more for becoming what he was made to destroy.

[@Eric-gp3hi]

I really like Baby as a villain he’s this alien parasite that turns your friends, family and loved ones against each other with a motive of seeking revenge against the remaining Saiyans and their descendants. It also fits with Dragonball GT theme of things from the past coming back to haunt you.

[@cuac232]

I never watched GT so I was always confused how there was a playable character named "Baby Vegeta" in some DBZ/GT games. Imagine my surprise when I witnessed that abomination!

[@sndark6241]

Fun thing about Baby's "Big Bang Attack" that looks like a Final Flash? Well, in videogames (Or at least Budokai Tenkaichi 3) it _is_ called Final Flash... in the movelist. When Baby actually calls out the attack name in his voice lines (Both in Japanese _and_ English), it's back to being Big Bang Attack. So I guess it's canon that Baby got the attack names mixed up. Goes to show how generic Vegeta's attacks are, I guess.

[@MariaYuri-qo8jy]

Either that or the games try to cover this mistake up.

[@thegr8poseidon792]

FighterZ calls it the generic Full Power Energy Wave

[@yotomoe5953]

16:55 You could EASILY rectify this by having Baby say something like "I don't want a cursed body". Not only does that make sense but it would also make it so that Goku's child body, the inciting incident of GT, actually saved him in this instance. Or maybe make it so that Baby CAN'T comfortably assimilate his cursed body. Basically turning a negative into a positive that gives him the edge against this villain. Woulda been neat.

[@nellewoodruff6337]

Ooh I like that a lot

[@wonder-games3579]

Yeah but then when he does become an adult later on, what's Baby's excuse gonna be by then?

[@yotomoe5953]

@@wonder-games3579 "He's kicking my ass too thoroughly."

[@SSJBartSimp]

I never noticed the opposites thing between Goku and Vegeta. Great call out.

[@aokhoinguyenang3992]

I think there a a couple of minor tweaks that make this arc better, like when the team caught Dr Myuu, instead of Baby in the liquid tank, it's a big powerful body his new invincible warrior, after the team destroy it and leaves, Baby emerge from inside Dr Myuu angered by the lost of his new body that he made Dr Myuu create. Or making the egg controlled victim have independent personality based on the Tuffles, this would goes well together with Baby wishing for the planet back(he is using/stealing the people & the planet that the Saiyans love & protect as the seed for his people's resurrection) also the scene when Baby betray the egg-Bulma make more sense, if they have independent personality

[@mitchellalexander9162]

"My problem with GT is that if your name is not Goku then your useless." -SomeCallMeJohnny on Dragon Ball GT during the Brainscratchcomms Dragon Ball retrospective

[@brandonreed3670]

I somehow never realized all of Vegeta’s attack names were in English

[@ThelronFjord]

Other than Gyarriku Ho which is half-English (Garlic Cannon).

[@JackedUpEntertainment]

All the non Goku full blooded Saiyans have that

[@devilskind92]

In the American dub most of the attacks are in English, so if you're American that's probably why.

[@lonkworld5671]

16:21 - About the change in Yûsuke Numata’s performance, the Castilian Spanish dub did something I think it’s pretty interesting. In his first appearances, Baby is voiced by Juanma Nogales. After infecting Vegeta, his voice changes to Alberto Hidalgo’s (Vegeta’s VA), and this change continues until Baby mutates into his final form and uses the Black Star Dragon Balls. After that moment, he goes back to being voiced by Juanma Nogales. I’ve always liked that, I think it’s a very original take on Baby Vegeta’s voice!

[@bgvo4373]

How do you feel about Mike McFarland’s performance?

[@tylercoon1791]

Personally, I would’ve preferred if it was a bit of both. Kinda like Vegito.

[@mitchfletcher2386]

​@@bgvo4373I like it. Especially when he laughs, sounds like a demented monkey. It fits.

[@doodguytheblank2403]

@@bgvo4373 I kinda like it, sounds alot like Brian Drummond's Vegeta (which I wonder if that was what they were going for)

[@animefan77]

4:02- Mr Popo: I’m just kinda bored and just going with the flow. Plus it fits my personality as an amoral psychopath to watch everything go to hell.

[@sumeracarnatia6997]

Huh. Didn’t know Baby’s voice changed in the original.

[@Kevtrev006]

Shout-out to Yuko Minaguchi's performance when Pan and Goku fight the possessed Gohan and Goten. That scream she lets out when she is about to be _murdered by her own father_ really hit me. Whether you like the character or not, in that moment she's just an extremely terrified and confused little kid, like damn dude that got dark!

[@billyreynoldsjr2229]

I enjoyed the Baby arc, Baby Vegeta, and the Revenge Death Ball. I liked how a villain performed an evil version of the Spirit Bomb(outside of games). Overall, it's probably my favorite arc in GT, despite the lack of SSJ4 on anybody except Goku.

[@otaking3582]

Personally I like the fact that Baby's new form is so far removed from Vegeta's design. It's much like the Other Mother from Coraline or Seth Brundle from The Fly, slowly devolving one's appearance until they're unrecognizable.

[@ladyaceina]

agreed

[@Zacman1123]

I agree 100%

[@LanceThumping]

18:14, If the story was better thought out they could've made Goku being the center of his rage make sense. Goku could represent a crystalization of doubt that Baby has about his mission and the evil of Saiyans. During all his infections and takeovers he could've learned about Goku's pure-heartedness despite being the only other pure blooded Saiyan besides Vegeta. Baby can accept Vegeta's personality since it largely confirms his biases and so can enjoy enslaving him. He's afraid of taking over Goku because he's scared it would confirm that he's pure of heart and thus affirm his doubts. All the others are fair game because they are all at least half human and so he can rationalize it away.

[@Phillylove100]

You know you brought up an interesting point that Goku being the focus of Baby’s wrath is weird and it should be Vegeta. It made me think of an interesting idea. Imagine if Goku was the main person infected and Vegeta was the person being targeted. All the later scenes could’ve hit so much harder with Vegeta feeling the betrayal of Bulma. Goku has always been set up as the main hero and the hope everyone can rely on but that’s now being used against us. Vegeta would be dealing with a lot of his complicated feelings towards Goku. Like he finally accepted Goku as worthy and that it’s okay for Goku to be stronger than him in the buu saga. But now it’s not okay, Vegeta has to reignite that drive. He has to finally accomplish the goal he has never been able to do (after their first fight) despite putting his heart and soul into it for so many years. He has to be stronger than Goku.

[@user-tz2cr3wx5x]

My theory is that he tried to first show his superiority to Trunks, now that he assimilated Vegeta, before taking him over, s showing him he never had a chanse.

[@gavinlucas9761]

I personally didn't mind how Super Baby Vegeta 2 looks since I've always viewed it as Baby inserting his dominance over Vegeta so over time Vegeta looks less and less like himself and looks more like Baby, but I can see your point as I think it would have been neat if the design was a bit more balanced with the two of them in mind.

[@AtomicComms]

I have to disagree with baby's final form being ugly and stuff. It's weird sure but I prefer it over the first form That was basically a Vegeta recolor. Baby making Vegeta act evil again doesn't sound interesting and it's been done before (Majin Vegeta) and it's not compelling. I think this is good for giving Baby his own identity and you can say it's "whittling away" at what's left at Vegeta, one of the Earth's mightiest warriors gone and replace with this nefarious parasite. Perhaps there could've been a better compromise for the design but i like this one, it's unique and imposing.

[@louisvictor3473]

I think his later Baby-Vegeta form does a good job at making it visually clear it is not longer merely Vegeta infected with Baby. It is Vegeta taken over by Baby, it is mostly Baby with a very suppressed vegeta underlayer. Very good communication via design.

[@olserknam]

He looks 90s as fuck and I like it

[@Zacman1123]

​@@louisvictor3473i agree.

[@Zacman1123]

This

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Don't agree. it just looks like ass and doesn't really have any interesting motif beyond "This is what we thought up in two seconds during a strong kitchy era of the 90's"

[@KetenReviews]

The 1 thing I do wish they had a part of this story, is showing Vegeta inside Baby Vegeta's head and having Baby torment him and cause Vegeta to deal with a massive amount of guilt over his past actions, maybe even shame for how the Saiyans he was so proud to be the prince of behaved. It not only would add a character arc and clarify the subtext of the arc but would also include Vegeta in the story in a meaningful way and in a way that doesn't require that he fights. It would also showcase why Baby wanted Vegeta so bad, because he wanted to do worse than kill him, he wanted to torture him. This would also moreso showcase that Vegeta represents the past actions of saiyans, being tormented justifiably by Baby while Goku represents the potential future and how flawed the "Sins of the father" analogy is, as Baby becomes more like classic saiyans, Goku, has to stop him. I would have also added a line from Baby to Goku, commenting that Goku is an insult to his people, because he is "pretending to be good" and saiyans simply cannot BE good. It's bullshit but I'd believe Baby reasoning it that way, he was born purely of revenge afterall. Unfortunately these things aren't in the arc... I just wish they were. Even so, I do still really like the subtext we DO get and there are a lot of scenes in this arc that are so emotionally impactful. I do really like the EVIL SPIRIT BOMB. It's the kind of thing that only works as well as it does with this character in this context. lol Baby Vegeta's design is... ugly... and not even in a cool way. I'm not even against him having a new design, if anything that would be cool if they had Vegeta slowly morph into some grotesque mechanical version of himself. Maybe give him the original Baby eyes, that would be terrifying. I was fine with the initial Baby Vegeta form though because it also added to the whole, Baby becoming the very thing he swore to destroy, quite literally.

[@nellewoodruff6337]

If we could somehow splice in than scene from DB Heroes where vegeta is reliving all his worst moments like slaughtering that namekian tribe, that would be perfect

[@brandonlyon730]

I can't wait for some baby tennis soon.

[@crystalfire7x]

That will come in december.

[@LordChip]

If only Vegeta's mustache lasted longer...

[@Yuli_Ban]

You know, it certainly would have been a very interesting dilemma for Baby to grapple with the morality of exterminating Saiyans who have compassion and are so unlike their ancestors. I know this is Dragon Ball and "villain arcs" aren't really a thing until Zamasu comes around, but still, that certainly would have been quite the arc for him: he's born from hatred and a desire for revenge against a race of pure-evil barbarians, and his first encounter with Saiyans in life are a trio trying to kill him, seemingly validating his hatred. But then he follows them and sees that they possess compassion and kindheartedness, something he simply can't fathom Saiyans ever possessing, and spends much of his time in space doubting they're being genuine, sure that this is all a ruse to scam the people they meet- until he comes to Earth and starts infecting the Saiyans there, digging into their memories, and finally seeing what's become of the great prince Vegeta. And to his shock, surprise, maybe even horror, these Saiyan remnants are nothing like the orc-like butchers his ancestral memories suggested they'd be. In fact, it's almost like if he so much as asked them to use the Dragon Balls to restore Planet Plant and the Tsufruian race, _they would let him_ without hesitation and wouldn't bother them. And he grapples with that discovery while also grappling with his programming to destroy Saiyans. And let's face it, he's still a megalomaniac on top of that, so even if he did develop beyond raw hatred of Saiyans, he'd still want to expand an empire through the cosmos (and to be fair even there, as we've seen in Super with the return of Freeza... the senshi aren't exactly going to stop him even then). How the fight with Goku would go from there, I don't know. Maybe his programming overrides whatever understanding he starts developing, or maybe he accepts that the Saiyans have changed but still considers their act of genocide to be a stain on their race that must be paid in blood. Either way, it would be a bit more interesting than "Cell-meets-Boo becomes Freeza" and would have acted upon the missed opportunity with Bootenks/Boohan where Boo absorbing the heroes slowly messed with his own morality until with Gohan absorbed, he'd be fighting Goku and Vegeta more out of raw, but not murderous, battle lust. Always thought that would've been a more fun direction. Could've, would've, should've. On some level, I kinda prefer how straightforward old-school DB was with how one-note and sadistically uncomplicated the villains were as opposed to the nü school trend of every villain needing to be "deep" and "sympathetic" even if it makes them less charismatic and dangerous. For a while now, I've had a fanfiction concept on the brain where some Saiyan survivor/descendent gathers the Dragon Balls and wishes back Plant and the Tsufruians as well as other victims of the Saiyan war machine before fucking off to some desolate planet alone, and just going to town with how Baby and Dr. Lychee would react to that, in multiple possible directions. Kinda interested in fleshing that out nowadays.

[@LanceThumping]

I suggested something similar. Make the reason he doesn't absorb Goku because he's afraid of confirming the only other pure-blooded Saiyan left besides Vegeta is actually pure of heart. It would crush his world view so much that he's actively avoiding it out of fear.

[@superpaytonmars8852]

I'd read that. Baby's lack of empathy always kinda confused me too. Goku (In the Funimation dub at least) even points out that the Saiyans already paid for their actions long ago. To which Baby (again in the Funi dub) simply replies that it's a shame the Saiyans of old weren't more like Goku. Because had they been, he wouldn't be suffering right now. And then it's just never brought up again.

[@spyroG3]

I really like these episodes a lot. And I had never thought about how inconsistent Baby's minions are. They also leave many questions: Why doesn't Boo help Goku? Why doesn't Baby infect Goku? etc Good video!

[@Aust51989]

I’ve always said that Goku should have used the Room of Spirit and Time to “age up” his body back into an adult.

[@bgvo4373]

That might work in getting Goku back to his 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai design, aka 18. If GT hadn’t basically ended the way it did, could Goku have lived way longer and aged indefinitely due to his kid body?

[@rynobehnke8289]

I guess GT worked off the assumption that Piccolo destroyed that room for good when he broke the gateway between the 2 worlds.

[@kmgyening]

​@@rynobehnke8289Wait didn't Dende and Popo fix it? I thought that's where Goku and Uub were training at the start of GT. Unless I'm just misremembering.

[@rynobehnke8289]

@@kmgyening No Dende only fixed it in Dragonball Super. Goku Trained with Uub in a training area in the heavenly Realm that is still on Earth and not in another dimension

[@kmgyening]

@@rynobehnke8289So then were they just fighting in some other part of the Lookout that was still in the same dimension? That's a bit confusing.

[@donaldcass9678]

Was there a reason Buu couldn't fight Baby directly ?

[@MariaYuri-qo8jy]

Yes. His ID doesn't say Son Goku.

[@bgvo4373]

The worf effect. He was the strongest villain in the final Dragon Ball arc prior to this, so now Baby is untouchable to him, or maybe it’s just the fact that he’s not Goku aka the plot device of a main character.

[@brandonlyon730]

He eventually does when he merges with Uub, only to get his ass kicked and becomes useless for the rest of the arc like Piccolo was to Cell.

[@Thisdude850]

@@brandonlyon730 Not even that, Uub loses 2 times in a row with Baby, he doesn't even get a W against the main villain like Piccolo.

[@Zeathian]

While I hate the name Super Baby 2, I like the design. The middle form with those jetpack looking things on his back is atrocious though.

[@efi3825]

Perhaps Baby tried to take over Goku, but he couldn't get through his thick layer of plot armor.

[@kmgyening]

LOL

[@felixwilson2917]

Great video - never really picked up on the dichotomy between baby’s death ball and spirit bomb til now

[@orbboom6119]

Would've been interesting if Baby became Baby Goku instead, and Vegeta had to beat him.

[@bgvo4373]

That would require Vegeta become the hero who saves the day, and as Resurrection F demonstrated, they can never seem to commit to that.

[@mymouseaintbroken8255]

Japan hates Vegeta@@bgvo4373

[@miadatenshi9903]

This isn't written by Toyotaro so no

[@orbboom6119]

@@bgvo4373 sadly true. I wish DB Heroes was that, fun what ifs where the secondary characters get the Ws sometimes, instead of a fortnite battle royale.

[@Morgil27]

Something about the phrase "baby eggs" sounds absolutely stupid and silly and I love it.

[@animefan77]

2:47- Goku: if that’s the case. Guess I’ll die for real…or transcend into a higher plane of existence- because it’s gonna be hard to live with Chichi like when things settle down.

[@Fanatic_Foremem]

Maybe it was less bias and more discomfort. Baby doesn't like being in a saiyan body, so even though he knows how he should act, he's on edge because he's having to pretend to be a saiyan. As for the humans going feral at hercule, I can only guess that it's a twisting of their baby loyalty and admiration for hercule, they found out he wasn't one of them and want to convert him, but since babys not particularly focused on his followers in the micro, just the macro, they lack any strategies for how to get to him and just act like an angry mob. Some of these odditys just require running through more explanations until you find the one that's most consistent. But given you don't have forever to think about every little plothole, I don't blame for you quitting a few theories early. It really doesn't help smooth over the other weird plot errors.

[@Morgil27]

The only thing i can think of to differentiate Goku from the rest is that, other than Vegeta, he's the only remaining _full-blooded_ Saiyan. Though, honestly, i don't even see why that matters to Baby, given he didn't try to outright kill Vegeta like he does Goku.

[@Fanatic_Foremem]

I have to imagine its just vegeta's one bit of pride limiting Baby. It's the only thing that really lines up and it kinda has president with majin vegeta not being fully under babidis control either.

[@nellewoodruff6337]

This might be dub only or something but I think baby said something about planning to kill vegeta once goku was taken care of and the planet was completely conquered

[@Thepuddingfighter]

DBD is soon wooo!

[@beauferret5414]

Looking at that Dragon Ball Prototype at the end of this video: OM Goodness, I think Toriyama's character designs looked SOOOOOOO much better in his early career. Compared to this point in his career where everyone's design looks so square like, even their eyes.

[@adama.7735]

I always assumed that Baby’s reason for wanting Goku dead is because Goku is a full-blooded Saiyan, unlike Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bra, who are only half Saiyan. Yeah, Vegeta’s a full-blooded Saiyan too, but you could argue that from Baby’s perspective, reducing the prince of Saiyans to nothing more than a meatsuit for the Tsufurian king is a more fitting punishment than death. That just leaves Goku, who is the only other pure Saiyan alive.

[@saiyan4414]

considering later this is brought up, how is it that Piccolo in the garlic junior arc avoided getting controlled by the Blackwater mist, but Dendae gets controlled by baby?

[@bgvo4373]

Back then, it was probably demonic interference (since Piccolo is also a demon). Dende may technically be a pathetic God, but he’s not demonic.

[@rynobehnke8289]

Presumable in part of the same reason Vegeta could resist Babedi's control with his pride but not Baby's The Aqua Mist and the "M" seal were both magic based. Baby meanwhile is science based with him literally messing around in your brain.

[@mechajay3358]

18:20 Tehy could've explained that since Baby has taken over Vegeta's Body, his Saiyan instinct to fight and Vegeta's own history with Goku is the reason why he wants to destroy the latter.

[@nora-yc6fi]

I feel the reason for Baby not wanting to kill Vegeta and instead keep him as his personal body is as the ultimate punishment Dying can sometimes be a mercy to a worse fate, being a slave for the rest of your life is a pretty awful fate I'd wager, worse than outright death even I think that's Baby's angle with Vegeta. As for Goku I don't know, maybe Baby wanted to kill at least 1 saiyan and Goku was the last one left he hadn't infected? Grasping at straws I know.

[@ajbXYZcool]

I'm guessing that the reason Baby didn't leave an egg in Trunks is he either didn't consider it, or didn't have enough power backed up at the time to pull it off. Once he got kicked out though he at least recognized that he may need it as a Plan B moving forward. Maybe eventually considered it as part of Plan A and chose to assimilate the planet instead of just taking the strongest.

[@bgvo4373]

He says he left an egg in there. It just doesn’t activate because it wasn’t a thing until now.

[@leafbladie]

Absolutely loved your breakdown on these epusodes. I love the concepts introduced in GT, but I admit, it's very haphazard. I wonder if we'll see the end of the Baby arc by the end of DBCember.

[@Patchnose]

I've always interpreted Baby Vegetas want to kill Goku over assimilating him came from Vegetas influence. Like that NEED to defeat Goku is imbedded into his very body.

[@drageonmusic6421]

So hype for dbdecember. Will be looking forward to it! Might even hit up that patreon on payday

[@MistareFusion]

I would certainly appreciate it. Thank you!

[@censoredterminalautism4073]

Well, it makes sense for the weaker dragon balls to not be able to undo the wish made by the stronger ones. I assume that in Super, if they tried to remove Zamasu's immortality using the lesser dragon balls, this is exactly what would have happened.

[@MistareFusion]

I get what you're saying, but does it, though? The way I'm thinking about it is this: A sledgehammer might not be the ideal tool to use to tap a nail into drywall in order to hang a picture, but you could do it. And if you did do that, you could still use the claw end of the smallest, daintiest hammer to remove it, couldn't you? My thought is, if it's a wish other DBs could grant, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to undo it as well. But maybe this is a wish that would "fundamentally change the essence of (Goku's) being," an excuse we've seen levied against the original DBs to prevent them carrying out a wish, so maybe there's some validity to that. Regardless, it's not something the series ever really addresses, which is weird.

[@censoredterminalautism4073]

@@MistareFusion Fair enough. We can come up with excuses for why it works the way that it does, and mine is "weaker magic can't lift stronger magic", but they could have just explained it, it would have taken just one line to do it. The black star dragon balls definitely have stronger magic, though, because we know that the regular dragon balls can't force an effect (even a positive one, like teleporting them from a dying planet, though this isn't the case, because it was intended as a curse, by Pilaf) on beings that are stronger than their creator, which makes this even more convoluted. Especially when conveniently, this ridiculously powerful Gokuu can be affected by the wish, but just one new transformation on top of that and he suddenly breaks out of it, but only temporarily. Very strange.

[@efi3825]

Really interesting comparison of Goku and Vegeta, I never really noticed that. It's things like these why I like your show so much.

[@louisvictor3473]

I kinda like the second baby vegeta design. It is meant to be little vegeta imo. The first one is clearly vegeta is infected with. But as the infection gets worse, it becomes more baby with just a muffled/supressed Vegeta substrate. The design reflects what is going on, what we are supposed to be feeling (i.e. "is Vegeta lost?"). So that works for me. It also works that Baby doesn't want Goku. He wants Vegeta. It is not spelled out, but Baby is a hypocrite sadist, not a 100% mentally healthy and logical being. He says he wants justice, but he wants to inflict pain while feeling morally superior. He claims the saiyans are murderous beasts and he wants to stop them, but he is a murderous beast who has harmed and killed plentifully himself. He wants more power (and ironically he has the same brain worms as vegeta once hand, one is better than the other by birthright, so he goes for what he believs to be the superior monkey). He wants the sadistic delight of torturing Vegeta's mind keeping it in a prison inside his own body. Vegeta, the prince, was always the real prize, not some low class warrior insignficant to the social order and their collective egos. Taking over Goku is meaningless to him, this defiant monkey who dares to believe himself able to stop Baby is better off as a toy to inflict pain upon before finally killing to Baby. He wants to stracth that saddistic "murder my enemy race with extreme prejudice" itch, and killing the last living and free saiyan like that would objectively make Baby come. Taking over Goku's body is basically a loss at that point, would be admiting he could not beat the saiyans even with all his schemes and stolen power, and he would stop being in direct control of Vegeta's body. No, the last defiant monkey has to die by Baby's hands.

[@Kolbatsu]

Finally! It's Goku Time!!!

[@madeline_parks]

He should have just hid the Black Star Dragonballs until the full year was up and then took them to an uninhabited planet to make the wish.

[@grunntalll]

Awesome Videos my dude

[@NickonPlanetRipple]

I love Baby Vegeta's final design, largely for the colors. They're so neatly broken up, and the minimalist armor gives him this intergalactic rockstar vibe. I just expect him to get on stage and put on a screamo show.

[@evanvinet8773]

The time frame here is one of my biggest issues with the series. Baby uses the dragon balls, and then the heroes just screw around for A WHOLE YEAR? What did they even eat if baby took over the whole world?

[@plantcrone9662]

What? The baby arc was not a year. The countdown never stopped for the dragonballs they need to be returned to the exact spot they were used from.

[@evanvinet8773]

@@plantcrone9662 that's the deal? the EXACT spot? I thought the countdown reset once baby used them again. that detail is definitely not in the dub. the dub says the planet they were used from

[@silveryuno]

4:23 I get Buu would not turn these people into candies because he's good now, but why didn't he just levitate the whole city with his magic...

[@ronaldnog]

Great video! I imagined you were going to touch on the subject of Gohan's eyes remaining "closed", as if he could still use all the potential unlocked by the Kaioshin, but he ends up transforming into a Super Saiya-jin to increase his strength. It's a silly detail given the narrative, but it bothers me how inconsistent it's been for almost 30 years!

[@kmgyening]

Hmm I always just assumed Baby mass transferred his eggs to everyone while it looked like he was powering up and laughing maniacally in Vegeta's body at the end of the last episode. The way he was powering up looked kinda weird, so I thought maybe that's what he was doing. Because I also didn't think he manually entered the bodies of the entire population.

[@Flipherrrrr]

Baby Vegeta final stages are literally a discount version of DIO from Jojo Bizarre Adventure Part 3

[@Phillylove100]

Perhaps Baby waited to turn Trunks to really twist the knife. Baby had a particular hatred for Trunks for continuously getting in the way of his plans. Just turning him would be too easy and nice. Trunks need to be turned while all his loved ones particularly his father are cruelly staring down at him. And Baby wanted to personally witness Trunks as he gave in to despair, his family turned against him, as Trunks slowly gets erased.

[@DGISALWAYS]

Tbh i always thought baby letting not infecting goku was the vegeta in him wanting to fight him.

[@The_One_In_Black]

Baby is flexing on Goku that his adult body can maintain SSJ3 for longer.

[@zacattack42]

Good vid man

[@coolway456]

I've always seen Baby's particular hatred with Goku being due to him being a full blooded Saiyan versus the Gohan and the others being hybrids. Though I haven't watched GT in a few years so I could have just misinterpreted it.

[@EmeralBookwise]

On the subject of Baby acting like a brute while possessing Sayanis because of his own biases, I could maybe see that still working, because even if Baby knows different enough to use the heroes' compassion against them, he can still be biased in that he sees that compassion as a superficial lie the heroes hide behind to deny their brutal past. In Baby's warped view he's turning the Saiyans into more honest versions of what he believes them to be. Ironically in a way that gives Baby an excuse for all his own atrocities that he commits while puppetting them. Likewise I could maybe excuse the inconstancy of Baby's minions targeting Mr Satan but mostly ignoring Buu. It could indeed be that they can sense Mr Satan hasn't been infected, but Buu does have one of Baby's eggs inside of him. It's isolated so it can't control Buu, but it's possible it's enough to trick the minions, at least so long as Buu plays along. As for not possessing Goku, it really is a shame the show just handwaves this when there could have been at least two good excuses. Most obviously there is the fact that Baby is possessing Vegeta, and we've seen that Vegeta's "pride" is enough to make him, if not immune, to mind control, at least capable of asserting his own will while being controlled. It could be that Baby's desire to kill Goku rather than control him is an aspect of Vegeta's personality bleeding into Baby, or conversely it could be that Baby is feeding into Vegeta's old grudge to placate any resistance Vegeta might otherwise attempt. Alternatively, going all the way back to OG DragonBall there is the concept of Goku being so pure that there isn't even an ounce of evil in his soul, which is what made Goku immune to the Devilmite Beam. All they'd need to do is provide a similar statement that Baby likewise controls people by magnifying the evil already inside them. I know some people might balk at that, because it would obviously mean that Gohan is less "pure" than his father, but we've seen as much. In both his fights against Cell and Buu, we've seen Gohan indulge in sadistic cruelty, not content to simply kill his opponents, but wanting to make them suffer as much as possible first. The closest Goku has ever come to that was on Namek, where he did rather pointedly want to make Frieza feal the pain of all his victims, to know the fear and helplessness of being faced by opponent that he has no chance against, but Goku stops short of killing Frieza. Once Goku has proven his point and there is nothing left to be gained from prolonging the battle, Goku ends it, content to walk away and let Frieza stew in the realization that he's no longer at the top of the food chain. There is anger in Goku's actions, but not malice.

[@LanceThumping]

I went along the same lines of Goku being pure. But instead of needing some taint to infect his hosts, Baby is just afraid of confirming that the Saiyan's can be pure hearted. He can rationalize the rest because they are half-human and Vegeta is Vegeta, but he wouldn't be able to handle confirming Goku is pure of heart.

[@asherzerbib3461]

What’s depicted in those deceiving sections is delightfully uncomfortable. Especially Chi-Chi smacking Goku and Pan away from eating any of the food prepared, saying saiyans aren’t welcome at "their" table. That felt like unnervingly real abuse. I’ll give the English dub credit for giving Baby's reason for not wanting Goku in his army due to his pure saiyan blood. His keeping Vegeta around besides being his host may reference how Frieza kept the Prince around since a group of powerful saiyans was too much of a risk, sparring one is useful enough to him that he can overlook. Doesn’t make it any less hypocritical, but it’s an explanation. What doesn’t work is Baby's attitude towards his new followers. Or rather his flip flopping on whether or not he gives a damn. Despite his claims of wanting to repopulate the Tuffles, he has the nerve to get angry with Trunks and the rest when they simply showed care for his well-being and volunteering to kill Uub instead. He even screams insults for "having no faith" in him and blasts them away declaring he wants nothing more to do with them. Talk about ungrateful. Then later when Goku arrives before the transformations begins, Baby tries to save face by shepherding his non-combatinents to safety. And THEN after becoming an oozaru he proceeds to slaughter a decent number of those same subjects just to test his new power…all while faking a rampage throughout the new planet. See what I mean?

[@bgvo4373]

Good analysis, except it’s Tsufurians or Tsufu, not tuffles. That’s a stupid name from a kidified dub (much as I prefer the ocean dub to Funimation’s original dub). Baby actually gives that explanation of why he doesn’t take over Goku in the dub?!

[@asherzerbib3461]

@@bgvo4373 it’s admittedly a throwaway line interspliced with dub text. Trunks and the others say that Goku should join them at first when they never offered that to him in the original. Baby than arrives and says he doesn’t want Goku due to his pure Saiyan blood. In Japanese when he arrives his line is more simplified or vague: "I don’t care to have this one. He'll just be a punching bag for my power." Something to that extent from what I recall.

[@TheAzulmagia]

15:14 I can't believe Baby used the Super Saiyan God ritual before that was even a thing.

[@vegettoblack7852]

I guess we could say baby was still developing when he was in trunks and unable to leave eggs then? Although the plot does not give us any reason to believe so lol

[@bordomsdeadly]

Baby wants to fight Goku because deep down Vegeta is still in there. I think the desire to fight Goku is something that Baby couldn't override in his vessel no matter how hard he tried.

[@STAMPaTTack14]

While I understand why people wouldn't like Baby's transformations designs, I've personally always liked them, it was never addressed in the show but I feel the design motiff was he's a parasite so the more he's inside the host the more the host starts to look like him, I know he gets the transformation through a unintended super saiyan God prototype but still the idea is solid (much of GTs track record)

[@horaciosi]

How cool would've been if Baby possessed Goku to use him to take revenge on Vegeta and Pan and Trunks lead a fight against Baby? Alas, it's Goku time.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

Baby's designs I feel can honestly be used as a representation for the problem with a lot of GT's design philosophy. It puts so much emphasis on detail and excess that the designs we get don't look cool but rather hilariously overdone. With Baby, it's especially interesting considering they had a design that works well and that's what we've seen in the opening and other spots where it's basically the Super Baby 2 design but blue and in some ways more simplified. I think that would've worked way better, have Vegeta be shown to be turning into Baby. Hell I think if I remember correctly when they revisited this idea for Dragon Ball Heroes of all places that's what they kind of did and it worked well enough there. There's also just an issue with the progression of Baby's forms which is when a problem with GT that will plague it for the rest of its run shows its ugly head. I've always said one of GT's biggest failings is that it's simultaneously too fast and too slow. It slows down in areas when it absolutely shouldn't and just wastes time but then for moments it could do with some slowing down? It instead speeds through them like an addict wanting to get to their next fix. Simply put? It feels ridiculous to have Baby go through two major transformations so quickly in his fight with Goku. In fact, it feels like they took a fight that might've felt more at home spread across multiple episodes and condensed it into one. The Revenge Death Ball? Cool concept that if given its own moment would be intimidating and frightening but they shove it in when we've already seen this fight speedrunning Dragon Ball tropes that it doesn't matter to me. Honestly, it would've probably been better to have Goku and Pan forced to fight their friends for a time before we got Baby and then during their fight? There could be more of a slow progression. Have Baby show how deadly he is with Vegeta's techniques and his own Tsufruian intellect and maybe have him slowly change Vegeta's body, make it kind of like what you'd see in horror films where a creature is possessing a human, it'd make it more unique than just being these hideous transformations being rushed out. I've also noticed the argument presented that it works because it's meant to be very removed from Vegeta and that's fair... except that really doesn't matter when the design is this hideous.

[@themikemonahan]

whoa goku (east) and vegeta (west) i had never noticed

[@ThelronFjord]

Goku Time Come on grab your friends We'll go to bland and boring lands With Gill the Robot and Goku the Earthling The fun will never arrive, it's Goku Time NOTE: I have never watched a single episode of Adventure Time.

[@blogsanjay1031]

they could've had a plot that baby adopts some of the personality of those he inhabits leading to his obsession with defeating goku

[@connorschultz380]

7:00 Well between gotanks being able to run around the world like 9 times in very little time, and superbuu being able to find every living human on earth and kill them basically right away, I think maybe this would take baby a week of continous effort Max? Certainly achievable in a few months

[@andrewshearsby8125]

Abridged Popo would never be corrupted

[@Fuchsfeuer]

One could perhaps explain it by saying that the saiyajin genes influenced Baby and that he became more and more aggressive and irrenational. Of course the saiyajin don't act like that but maybe it's in their genes and baby is influenced by it. Maybe it's something special about them. He cannot take over Buu and his character is influenced by the Saiyans without his knowledge.

[@jeanpoliko]

14:51 This is a certified bra moment

[@Chris-th5fl]

At least with this arc compared to something like super, i actually felt the stakes were real and was curious on how Goku and the others would get out of it.

[@ganoninthepit]

Yeah, that's a big takeaway I have with GT. I have a million logistical and focus-based problems with it, but it doesn't feel like a commercialized romper room. Death, devastation, and losing yourself are all on the table at all times.

[@Acerthorn]

He wants to kill Goku instead of possess him because, with the exception of Vegeta, he's the only _pure-blooded saiyan_ left.

[@kmgyening]

It feels kinda arbitrary tbh. He still possessed a full-blooded Saiyan, so he knows he could do it again. But he doesn't and that makes things harder for him. Why even put himself in that position if he could just mitigate that risk of adequate resistance right there?

[@LilLorThatGamerFoo]

Though i agree with your criticisms, baby Vegeta's design is one of my favorite designs in dragon ball. Good videos as always though

[@BobbyMoore2-mp8wb]

Got to love SS4 Goku

[@500938ful]

I imagine the people infected are like sleeper agents waiting for the switch to flip

[@superjetze]

Much better screen caps this episode.

[@wayuch9347]

I guess what Baby's minion can sense is the presence of Baby's eggs in someone, and Mr Buu does have them inside him, they're just neutralized? A bit stretch but that's probably what's implied since iirc he hides Mr Satan and Pan, almost like he's an exception for some reason

[@MistareFusion]

That's a good idea, but I'm afraid that can't be what the show is implying given that Boo locates and spits out his egg long before the scene I'm referring to.

[@wayuch9347]

@@MistareFusion Classic Dragonball having 100 ways to justify something and choosing none then..

[@yonatanevron2428]

Spledid work as always! The point about baby mimicing a disgusting saiyan is spot on! Your videos always excite and sadden me. Dragon ball, being regarded as one of the best anime of all times, rightfully so, could have been so, so much more. Your analyzing (or, well, dissecting) is hitting all the points. I do believe you've missing a bit in the cell arc TV version analysis, but meh. Anyway, I was wondering if you would cover dragon ball super. The goku black arc at the very least. I would very much like to know what you have to say about it's villain/s?

[@MariaYuri-qo8jy]

So what you are saying is that people that are controlled by Baby ... are ganados? Loyal to Baby and violent if needed but carry out their lifes if no saiyan (outsider) is around? So Baby is Saddler? That's awesome! If only Chichi or Videl or whoever would run around with a chainsaw!

[@CidAghast]

i know we arnt talking about the Super material but I kinda like the Super Saiyan God thing being a ritual that has to be done to channel energy being a thing both in Super and GT and this seems to just be a biological qualities Saiyans have that it just happens that Vegeta and Goku don't really know about

[@SuperSnorhax]

Putting more depth into the story than there is here, but I could see Baby wanting to fight Goku being Vegeta’s influence or emblematic of his overall arc of becoming more Saiyan-like in his revenge against the Saiyans. This is in contrast to Goku who is a full blooded Saiyan who acts like an Earthling.

[@hiddenflare6169]

Just going to give a small warning to y’all now, the next pair of episodes of GT is... Odd. Let’s just say, I hope y’all like Mario Party!

[@Wizard_Lizard_]

Gotta hard disagree on the Baby Vegeta design critique. I absolutely love how he looks far more like Baby than Vegeta. To me it shows that this has gone far beyond just a merging of the two and is now instead a full on take over, as if to say this isn't Vegeta at all anymore and shouldn't be treated as such.

[@prometheusmodelow8322]

I always thought that when Baby first got inside Trunks he was unable to do the egg ability, as he was still in his first, less developed form, perhaps the ability to infect people with the eggs was a feature of his evolved state we see him on Earth hence why he didin't infect Trunks.

[@MistareFusion]

This is a result of me not being as clear as I should have been. Baby *did* lay eggs in Trunks when Baby entered him the first time. That's the point they're trying to make, that this isn't a continuity error because the eggs were in him all along. It's just that they didn't activate until Baby decided they did, which is right now because... dramatic reveal.

[@prometheusmodelow8322]

@@MistareFusion Ohh i see, i completely forgot about that i always thought Baby simply never laid any eggs at that point but yeah it's been about 10 years since i last watched the entirety of GT lol.

[@GamingTeacher]

Obviously, this should have been Baby-Earth vs the Saiyans. Of course, we had no one left who could be a threat unless Baby amped them up ridiculously, buuuut….