"It's historical": violence against women in fantasy

[@thatdavidhopkins]

Incredible video. As an avid student of medieval history, we tend to view "moral progress" as a given-when it's a bit of myth. People tend to be as terrible as they've always been (and as good as they've always been). You touched on this in your video, and I think it's important to remember, so we don't pathologize the past, i.e., "things were so bad then" and by implication, better now.) There were happy families back then. Loving couples. And there was some terrible, horrific stuff. Just like now. If we hopped in a time machine, we might be surprised at how much "like us" they were.

[@readbykyle3082]

Well said!!

[@thrawncaedusl717]

Up to a point, but the concept of human rights was a huge leap forward. Slavery was the norm and was “invented” well before freedom (this video mentions women were considered property, and they weren’t the only ones). Yes, human nature is still largely the same, but the structures around us are significantly improved.

[@Bookborn]

Extremely well said, thank you.

[@zodlord5669]

people don't change, but technology does and when technology changes our priorities changes, so yes I would say we are without a doubt significantly better off now than we were then

[@DasCracker]

I wonder then if the feeling that this violence happened to all women, but isn't apart of the historical record, comes not only from as you say feeling that there must be 'moral progress' which there certainly has been, but the fact that the current stats are what 1/3 for women? So if it's internalized as we MUST have had moral progress, then extrapolating would yield 'It's Historical'. The call to action through violence in modern narrative: Still forming an opinion for this in so far that I haven't read an author who only gives agency to female characters after violence, but it does seem that as 'one time or few time' occurrences an author will do that and then reading across many series it comes across as the exact criticism that Bookborn stated. So of course all these authors would presumably be read in the genre so they must be lazy or unimaginative then? Despite the writing using this violence 'one or a few times'. I'm not nearly as read as y'all so that's where I'm coming from. Edit: From the 'It's Historical' an additional point to bear in mind, like the quote at the end, where the historical records would also have to be a matter of record. Much like the issues today, not everything is. So while the marriages and relationships were cultural and historic the treatment of wives, daughters, sisters may have been behind closed doors. Which then falls back to the issue of behind those doors it's no different than today vs moral progress.

[@aquamanpl]

"We can both love something and critically analyze it" Yes! Yes! Yes!

[@Bookborn]

Yes! As someone who has been a wheel of time fan for ages, I've had practice at it 😂

[@rebeccaroy3751]

These are thoughts that I sometimes want to bring up in discussions about fantasy books but am too afraid to because there is often such aggressive push back. I really appreciate you making this video.

[@Bookborn]

Thank you! I understand how people feel so strongly about their favorite works - because I'm right there - but we need to allow these conversations to happen.

[@killosopher6432]

This is a very good take on the issue. I agree that the way violence is described is very important because it shows author's attitude to the event. And there is a very important line between "things happen, but that doesn't make them fine" and "ha-ha, things happen, live with that".

[@kelleyceccato7025]

The more we love something, the more familiar we are with it, and the more we think about it, and the more important it is to us. All these things make us more aware of its flaws. If we didn't love it, the flaws wouldn't bother us. We could shrug them off. Sadly, not enough people understand this.

[@Bookborn]

Great point. It's also just important in life to realize it's okay to love things with flaws. Nothing will ever be perfect or for everyone.

[@maddy0119]

This is such a thoughtful and well researched video, thank you for sharing! One pattern that I've noticed is that the 90s era of sff that saw a spike of sexual assault in books coincides with the 80s/90s where society at large was becoming more open about discussing sexual assault, where in previous decades it was more "hush, we don't talk about that" and the subject was silenced. You can see this in non-sff literature as well, like The Color Purple, but I've read a lot of retro sff written by women in the 80s/90s that covered the topic (Robin Hobb, Julliet Marillier, Lois McMaster Bujold, Ursula K Le Guin, Mary Doria Russell, Octavia Butler to name a few) and I always felt it was presented in a more intentional way (and interestingly enough, often included assault against men as well as women). This isn't to say I've never read a book by a man that has been intentional in its portrayal of sexual assault, I certainly have (I agree with your shout out to Abercrombie, and would put Ken Liu on that list as well) but it frustrates me that sometimes in modern fantasy it is presented as default, like it's included to score "authenticity" points of some kind, when I know the subject has been covered thoughtfully for decades.

[@Bookborn]

I really have nothing to add, I completely agree with all of this AND love your added input about the cultural things happening in the 80s/90s that might have contributed to the influx. I never thought of that, but I think it's a super important piece of info to add to the conversation.

[@alisssart]

Thank you so much for this video Bookborn!!! You phrased this all so well. I thought for a while that I was just sensitive to the topic, but really it was just how it was written or portrayed.

[@Bookborn]

I also think it's ok to be sensitive to the topic! I am! And it's annoying that I can't say "eh I don't want to read stories that focus on that" without people saying I'm naive. It's ok to just...not consume media we don't like for WHATEVER the reason is!

[@MohseenLala]

I didn't really get it, what's the argument here?

[@chelsealiddypivtorak9282]

Thank you SO much for covering this topic! I struggle with talking about SA in fantasy, and you articulated so many of my concerns so well. I'm going to direct so many people to this video! I have such a visceral response when SA is portrayed in media, because I do think it's one of the worst things one person can do to another, and it's often not portrayed with the victim's POV in mind. I think your suggestions at the end of this video provide a good blueprint for depicting SA in media.

[@kayyoung3187]

Great video. ❤ thank you for bringing attention to the fact that in reality not all victims are women, as well as all the other great points you made. you obviously put a ton of work into this video and it’s one I’ll be sharing when this topic comes up.

[@Bookborn]

Thank you 🙏And yes, I think it's important to point out how men are victims of these crimes, because unfortunately, it's often not taken seriously today that men can ABSOLUTELY be victims!

[@renee1390]

Hi! Medievalist grad student here. And I LOVE to talk about this kind of thing. Your info was really good! Rich women usually married younger than poorer women and the question of virginity was usually a “richer” problem. Casual sex WAS a thing and you are absolutely right that rape was taken to trial! Look at the artist Artemisa! One of the issues however was that the legal system was strange because “life in prison” wasn’t quite a thing. Nail on the head about the property thing, but people did NOT like their “property” getting taken and did take it personally. (There was also absolutely evidence of this happening to boys and men too! Can be seen in Renaissance Florence!) But also they DID know that having a lot of pregnancies/forcing kids to have babies young often lead to death and injury and it wasn’t uncommon for people to discourage young marriages to be consummated. Sometimes marriages were even “long distance” or they waited to do the do after marrying. Whether it’s accurate or not, I’m so tired of these stories being written for male characters from the perspective of male characters😅

[@EPWillard]

it's slightly after the medieval period but in 1600s french-canada the age that you became an adult was 25 and if you got married before that without your parents consent they could actually disinherit you and it was expected you would get married more in your early 20s than in your teenage years.

[@PhebusdesTours]

If I'm not mistaken, Queen Catherine of Aragon had to wait for King Henry VIII of England to turn 18 until she finally married him, so it makes me quite mad to hear "It's based on medieval times' as a justification for everything.

[@jonweman6128]

I've also read that while rape in the marriage wasn't a crime, it was still seen as improper behaviour, and the wife could bring it up against the husband as a valid cause for divorce (like anything, I'm sure this varied between places and exact time periods). Btw, there are also preserved divorce proceedings where a woman accused the man of the OPPOSITE, that is, not fullfilling his husbandly duties by leaving her unf-d for too long (I assume a man could do the same, but that is less surprising to us today). So sex at that time was actually not seen only as something women owed men.

[@33jamesds]

I've always wished we could have gotten an outside perspective on Dany in book 1, as well as her own take too. Even if Jorah had just a brief chapter where he conveyed the harsh reality in some ponderous, philosophical way, it might have helped frame the things she went through in a way that a 13 year old kid wouldn't have the experience, or possibly even the vocabulary to effectively express.

[@colinplaisance4274]

On one level I agree with you, but on another level I think us only having Dany’s perspective helps create the feeling that Dany is alone, vulnerable, and being used as a pawn by every man around her. This makes it so much more impactful as that is flipped on it’s head as she grows stronger and more powerful with men of all status speaking from a place beneath her. Like I think it’s good that we don’t know whether Dany can trust Jorah. It allows us to grow with her and not be able to judge her conclusions just because we have more information.

[@KcannyTBO]

I love this video! Thank you always for being so interested in these topics and sharing your thoughts with us. I like how your arguments are never antagonic or dismissive of other views, I think this is what makes them so absolutely powerful.

[@Bookborn]

I appreciate you! Thank you!

[@passmorebooks]

I love how you're willing to critically analyze a book even when you truly loved reading it. We all need to be willing to ask ourselves hard questions whether we enjoyed the media we consumed or not.

[@Bookborn]

I think it's a vital skill, especially when books don't age well. I have favorites that were written a long time ago and have issues, but by being able to understand that, it means I can still love them and not feel like I have to defend everything about them!

[@EhsJaySaunders]

Well put. This is for the algorithm, until such a time as I feel I have anything of worth to add to the discussion. Great video!

[@Bookborn]

Thank you, as always, for praying to the algorithm gods 🙏

[@gregoryamato8693]

The video content is timely and even-handed and the criticisms at the bottom comments are . . . telling. Please keep up the commentary videos like this. They're interesting and you do them really well.

[@HamzaBoujelouah]

I always love how thoughtful and articulate your videos are.

[@Bookborn]

Thank you so much for watching 🙏

[@hershey2581]

I recently stated watching your videos, and I appreciate how much you’ve challenged me to not be a hater. Keep it up and stay great ✊🏼

[@cronkthebookguy]

This is just brilliant! Loved the real historical context, thank you for that. That quote is really thought provoking. If we keep seeing violence in an 'entertainment' sphere, it can set a bad precedent and even normalise it, even if it's depicted as a despicable thing. We run the risk of seeing violence as being there for amusement, and ultimately, risk becoming only more desensitised to the issue.

[@Grilinctus]

Fantastic video. It breaks my heart to see how much you have to tiptoe around the subject and how careful you have to be to emphasize the nuances of what you’re saying because of the way people react. Thank you for making the effort.

[@bookdmb]

I hope you know the backlash is just an aggressive minority. This all resonates in a big way.

[@Bookborn]

It's a good reminder that there is usually a pretty loud minority and we can't let it have power over all our conversations.

[@bookdmb]

@@Bookborn I think the community appreciates your bravery to take on difficult topics. It’s kind of your thing.

[@wolfme4030]

Regardless of whether it is a minority, videos like this are so important to be made and seen. So thank you.

[@MetalCharlo]

It's not gender specific but the number of times I've read a scene where I just went "man was that REALLY necessary to the plot?" lmao. I have a VERY thick skin and can take a lot in my fictions but sometimes it's just too much for the sake of it.

[@EpicTalez]

I didn't know what to expect when I saw the title and thumbnail but your argument is solid.

[@abdullahelnaas4473]

I disagree with the argument that Martin fetishized Dany. I re-read it recently and all I felt reading those scenes was grossed out and worried for her. I could practically feel my cortisol rising every time I read a Dany chapter. And I'm pretty sure this was intentional on Martin's part - Dany is constantly terrified during most of her early chapters with Drogo, and Drogo himself is shown to be an evil monster from the wedding scene and onwards. I think that Martin tried getting that across the best he could during her chapters, but it didn't make any sense to say it outright as it was from her POV. It doesn't help as she is surrounded by evil snakes who just want to use her, so none of them would speak out on her behalf either. On further thought, I'm pretty sure the main reason people push back against Dany and Drogo is because they believe it is shown in a positive light - which it isn't. I think they come to that conclusion because Dany doesn't hate Drogo. To that I say fair enough out of context, but within context it is literally a child getting groomed. Her only relative hates her, abuses her, and sold her off. Everyone else thinks of her as chattel. She's literally a kid surrounded by monsters, and the only one remotely nice to her is Drogo, and for about a few seconds so of course she got groomed by the asshat. The relevance of it for her character? It's difficult to say, since the show rushed her arc and the books aren't finished. I don't think you can say that it wasn't put in there for shock value, because I believe that it set a foundation for her trust issues and bad judgment - I won't spoil since you're still haven't read it, but she makes some bad decisions later on which could be linked to her abuse. Anyways, You can argue that it was unnecessary, but I really don't think anyone could argue that it is fetishized or done for shock value (at least not completely).

[@Flammewar]

I think George intended the wedding night to be consensual between Dany and Drogo while the show made it much clearer that Dany gets raped. I think the criticism is fair.

[@Bookborn]

Ok, so I think you've made a lot of good points. I think I've interpreted some scenes differently. I took Dogo and Dany's first night scene as to show that Dogo was a "good guy" because he was waiting for "consent" but really, you couldn't get consent from someone that young so it was disturbing to me. Again, this, like you said, may have been Martin's intention - but I see fans misinterpret it constantly, at least, so that is an issue I have with it even if that's not Martin's fault. I also just hate the language he uses to describe her body, which I do think is a narrative choice (like the actual words used, not the framing). Either way, it's a complicated issue because I really can't tell how much Martin is being intentional with it, which is also what makes these discussions so hard sometimes! I do like Dany's storyline, though, and I do think it is vital to her story (even after just book one imo), so I have no issues with it from that perspective, personally.

[@CovaDax]

@@Bookborn I feel like Martin genuinely tried to establish a loving connection between Drogo and Denearys, but it was ultimately an impossible task. I believe Drogo genuinely cared about Denearys, but the was just super gross. My read was Denaerys in that moment had no choice but to believe he cared as a way to cope with accepting her situation and wasn't really given the opportunity not to "love" Drogo. I like to believe Martin had good intentions for that relationship, but there's no way to frame that in a way that isn't icky.

[@shioramenrabbit]

I think some of what you said was fair, but also I still think that the ends didn't justify the means in her portrayal. A lot of the time we see her through a very male gaze and a male viewpoint. And I think something people misunderstand about the male gaze "and honestly SM really gets wrong" is that it can be used in conjunction with sympathizing with the object of it, while still distorting and framing what's going on in a particular way. It's not all "the 5'3'' DD young woman boobed boobily into the kitchen, wafting a scent of petunias and fresh citrus" sometimes it's making a woman or girl smaller and more helpless in a way that justifies a lack of agency or thoughtfulness. I don't think that it's a coincidence that a lot of GRRM's SA's occur between a much larger, implacable and inescapable larger man and a young very vulnerable girl or woman and written as inevitable. That's not the way that a victim of any type of violence would necessarily always look at it from their perspective, and it really plays into the voyeuristic human experience of the grotesque rather than speaking to the experience of the character. Which again, it's fine if that was the intent and point of the scene. Once or twice. But when it happens again, and again, in a pattern, that's when I personally feel it is fair to point out that this isn't about what is realistic, it's about twisting the emotions of the reader to keep eyes on the page for good or ill. And if that's what it's about, then any and all emotional experiences of the writing are valid, because otherwise, what is the point of playing that game.

[@zodlord5669]

@@CovaDax historically speaking women of status were used as bargaining chips to ensure alliances it didn't really matter how people felt towards one another, a better example is Catelyn stark who married Ned after his brother died, and her sister who married Jon Arryn. These were all apart of duties to ensure success. Oh was she raped? That's not the real meaning why these people were together in the first place. It's stupid to apply modern conception and mind set to practices in the past. This is why I didn't really understand this video on one hand bookborn is like oh I agree with history, but on the other hand I don't because of my modern tastes. If you don't like how someone handles a subject write your own. This is all very opinionated and history sucks. To point the finger at men and saying oh men are the problem is foolish. You must look at a society that didn't even have running or clean water to begin with. Imagine it takes 5 hours to make dinner and lunch, that's how bad society was. Of course you're gonna have people mashed into gender roles.

[@tadious9415]

Great video! A tough but important subject. I think my biggest problem with the "it's historical" argument is just that why does our fantasy works with dragons, magic and who knows what other elements have to be totally historical in this way? If an author wants to include that element they can, but I never got why it has to be that way just because something was historical. There's tons of other historical details we don't include because they don't serve the narrative. You also mentioned not being able to think of an example of that violence happening to men, and certainly a very under represented side of this given the historical nature of it. I think that comes from thinking of this type of violence as sexual rather than thinking of it as an assault. And an assault can be done to anyone. It's about power over someone and hurting them. But for an example I'd point to a character from Wheel of Time, specifically Crown of Swords. Though debated in the Wheel of Time community which continues to baffle me as he wasn't interested in the sex, verbally said no, and was tied down at knife point by someone using their political power against him which seems to make it pretty clear. But I can't think of an example of male / male violence of that kind in fantasy.

[@liviajelliot]

I found your channel after Johana mentioned one of the recommendations, and I have to say - wow. Wow. I *loved* this video, not only because I found myself nodding along the way (and gesturing "this", "this!" to screen) multiple times, but also because how respectfully, calm, and well-argumented you discussed it. It is so sad that more often than not, the argument of "it's historical" is actually used to justify the glorification or fetishisation of very specific topics. And I agree - Abercrombie did an excellent job in that trilogy. Regarding books were "it happens" to both men and women, Smith Spark's "Empires of Dust" is quite explicit in that regard but, sadly, also has a lot of these events happening. Thank you so much for such a nuanced discussion. I shall binge-watch your channel! Keep these deep-dive videos coming, please!

[@vaughnroycroft999]

Thanks, as always, for doing these video essays. You're an exemplar of what I love best about fantasy BookTube, and I hope that others will follow your lead, and really make us think (verses "Ten WORST things/books/tropes/authors/etc."... which I personally think are the worst, lol). Long ago I decided I did not want to depict sexual violence (suffered by any human, regardless of gender) in my storytelling. But as a male author, I've found that broaching the topic of female sexuality can be fraught. I totally get it. Given the times and recent history, males depicting any aspect of female sexuality is bound to be received with heightened scrutiny. Rightfully so. Writing for a broad audience is a tough gig, and should never be taken lightly, let alone without deep thoughtfulness. Thanks again!

[@mchlle94]

As a woman, almost every fantasy book (or just book/film/show for that matter) that I open/watch has horrendous scenes in it in which my entire being as a woman is used and abused in a meriad of ways, only to be employed as a plot point in some male hero story. It is clearly not about the women and their experiences in these stories. It's made for men. Yeah, I'm angry, and I'm done, because things I love are constantly ruined for me, and taken from me. The message is: this is not made for you, and half the population gets off on your objectification, pain and suffering. I want to nerd out and enjoy things too, without constantly being reminded how violence against women is not just seen as normal, but celebrated, made into something fun and thrilling for men. And then, these male authors are celebrated too for their "genius" (instead of getting a serious psych exam), praised for even including female characters to begin with (* slow clap *), while female authors are struggling or thrown into the YA section once again because we can't believe they can write adult fantasy or sci fi.

[@jamesdulin9839]

This was a really well done video. I think the "it's historical" argument has always felt lazy from an author's perspective because we make choices about plot and character in our books with intentionality. This argument reduces the author's role in crafting a story, as if to say the author had to include an assault. Authors don't have to do anything. We chose to write what we write. I think this conversation is especially important for anyone writing characters with marginalized identities that they don't share. Authors have to be thoughtful and intentional about acts of sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. we write into our books. They aren't off-limits conversations. They are important and dangerous conversations with which we need to take care in our writing because art isn't contained to the page. Art interacts with life.

[@charissawilkinson9270]

Sometimes, when we are afraid, or even just concerned, about how someone will take an act in the books we write, we will silence ourselves. For example, one of the reasons Ms. Rowling is considered transphobic, is the fact that she was considering writing a novel where a man dressed as a woman in order to hunt and kill women. This has happened in real life, and yet, trans-activists saw it as transphobic.

[@DanloRingess]

I'm not sure if you get a chance to read comments on videos that you posted months ago, but I just found your channel while browsing KZbin tonight and wanted to comment. I watched your Five Best Fantasies of 2023 video and then wanted to see what you had thought of the Malazan books you have read. However, it was this video that got me to subscribe. This was an incredibly well thought out and thought provoking video on a topic that doesn't get enough such nuanced discussion in SFF fandom. It was truly refreshing to see such a multi-faceted and nuanced look at the subject. I loved how you explained your thoughts on why you and many others sometimes have issues with reading books with these kinds of scenes in them. Thank you for such a great video. I look forward to more of your reviews and commentaries in the future.

[@jamesaydelotte6269]

misogyny is so bad in fantasy, I definitely think authors should be more inclusive in their characters and not always depict women as only being victims of violence.

[@PonderingsOfPete]

the points at the end of your video are great. I think it's really important to write things like this intentionally and compassionately. Something that Daniel Abraham said in his interview with Allen is that he doesn't typically write this in his stories because it tends to overwhelm anything else in their story. If a woman is assaulted in a story, their character arc pretty much becomes about *that* and that only. Thus I think that it shouldn't be written about unless you're making your story about that. At least I personally will likely never write about it, for a variety of reasons, including that.

[@hugevibez]

Really good video and definitely something to think about. I will have to say the language surrounding Dany or Sansa from not only George but also the fandom at large has always been weird to me. You can definitely see that all of it is written from a male viewpoint at least. I do think George is aware of contemporary violence against women and is thinking about that when writing this stuff, but ultimately it's using this violence as a narrative device to show that bad people are indeed bad, rather than actually saying something interesting about it. I love these books though, but more so about the mystery of the world or the political intrigue and not the violence against women.

[@MOONSUN4Life]

Nuance and critical thinking are some of my favorite things. Thank you for not shying away from difficult topics.

[@veronicadidato]

Great video! I've had similar conversations with people and what confuses me is the defense that sort of boils down to "well, how else should it have been done then?!", as if the author didn't have to choose to put in s*xual violence in the first place. Like it was out of their hands. This is, naturally, a rather small minority, but it still baffles me when it comes up. Personally, I try to stay away from stories that heavily feature these things because of the reasons you stated: how it's handled and described. I also find it lazy because it's so prevalent, almost like it's an unspoken rule that this is the only way women can suffer and/or grow. It's also unbelievably uncomfortable to read books for escapism but be reminded of reality because some authors need to have s*xual violence against (primarily) women in order to achieve their escapism... There should be some questions that pop up for them if that's the case. Either way, a very complex topic, and I enjoyed this video a lot!

[@joelvburke]

Haven't watched the vid yet but I just wanted to say that I'm glad you made it. Ever since your GoT review I've had this "historical" argument floating around in my head and wished I could know what you'd say about it. Way to read my mind! Weird.

[@HirilCelebrian]

Historical accuracy is understandable, but Diana Gabaldon makes it seem like an 18th century woman couldn't leave her house without getting graped 7 times.

[@sheldonwong12]

Violence against women is a difficult but important topic to discuss in any forum - thank you for bringing it into the fantasy booktube space. I appreciate the research and thought that you put into this video (as with all of your videos). People tend to delegitimize these discussions by saying that men and boys are also victims of sexual violence (whether in fantasy or IRL), but I would argue that the poor way we handle sexual violence against men is also caused by the patriarchy (specifically the unrealistic expectations of male strength that force male victims into shameful silence). We are all negatively affected by patriarchy, and I absolutely agree that creators in fantasy and other media need to be more intentional in their portrayal of sexual violence. Thanks Bookborn!

[@GreavesEc]

If "patriarchy" doesn't favour men, and actively harms them, then why bother calling it that? Just call it what you actually mean - SOCIETY.

[@نجمة-ت8د]

@@GreavesEcbecause there are different types of societies some are patriarchal and some aren’t

[@CurrentChapter]

I love this video so much! Amazing research and nuance to talk about these topics! It's a lot of things I think about often, but you put it into words perfectly!

[@MarkHogan994]

There is so much more violence against men in most medieval fantasy and no one cares. And no one sees depictions of men being brutally murdered or tortured as an endorsement of that violence. But somehow, when it's violence against women being depicted, people accuse the author of heinous things. Here is the truth : ASOIAF is about war. And sexual violence against women has been a part of every war ever fought. Despite this, 90% of war movies / books gloss over it and instead show only the scenes of young men slaughtering each other. You know, the part that everyone is desensitized to and thinks is cool. In fact these sanitized depictions of war are so prevalent and so normalized that they occur even in children's stories, like The Hobbit, Mulan, or any other number of movies and books aimed at kids. War is considered appropriate material for basically any audience as long as it's just men dying. Everyone is instantly more squeamish when women and children are affected. After all, what do we say when we want to emphasize just how savage a conflict was? "Even the women and children". Ah yes. Because men dying is normal and accepted, but women being affected by war is a tragedy. Well in my view war is a tragedy, period. And all wars affect all demographics within society. Men, women, and children alike. But most media chooses to depict war as only affecting men, because that is acceptable. That isn't upsetting, it's just normal. George is one of the few authors who does not give readers this dishonest, sanitized, and watered down depiction of war that is so commonplace. He chooses to show something much closer to reality. And modern reality and history both tell us that war does not spare women. Hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of women and girls were raped in 1945 when the Soviet army took Berlin. I don't believe we should shy away from depicting and discussing these topics. I know it is upsetting to many women. It's the same for me, and I'm a man. In Game of Thrones I was able to watch every scene of men being eviscerated without flinching, but whenever there was sexual violence towards a woman, I found myself deeply disturbed, as if something horrible had happened to someone I knew personally in real life. It would make my stomach turn whereas violence against men just felt... banal. Sad yes, but not viscerally upsetting. Because as a society we are incredibly desensitized to violence against men, but not to sexual violence. So I get it. It's upsetting. People who can't handle it should watch / read something else. But there is value in this kind of media existing. The point is not and should never be to glorify violence, but to criticize it and discuss its effects. George does not glorify violence in my opinion, I see his books as a salient anti-war critique, and despite the fact that he is an old man, I don't think it would be absurd to suggest there is even a feminist bend to some of his writing. He himself described himself as a feminist for years until he decided it was inappropriate for a man to call himself that and that it would be better to let women be the judge of how feminist he is. But from my perspective, eliminating the taboo surrounding sexual violence would be a positive. Sexual violence was historically horrific, yes, but as we all know, it is still an issue to this day, and unfortunately, will likely always be an issue, due to human nature itself. We need to create an environment where people feel comfortable talking about these issues. I think art that depicts and discusses sexual violence is essential to that. Of course it won't be everyone's cup of tea, and people may disagree about how exactly it should be discussed, but I think a good first step is for it to simply be discussed at all, because it too often has not been. Ultimately no author should feel like they can't tackle certain important parts of the human experience because it might hurt some people's feelings. I'm sorry but it's the reader's job to figure out what he / she wants to read. Dictating what authors can discuss or how they should discuss it does not sit well with me. And in a fantasy setting, I think an author should have absolute freedom on the accuracy issue. If a medieval fantasy author decides to portray something in a way that feels close to real history, despite the fantasy setting, then that is a totally valid choice, and no one should be using the fact that it's fantasy to invalidate that choice. Conversely, if an author wishes to use the fantasy setting as a license to depart from historically accurate social dynamics, then that is also completely valid, because yes, it is fantasy. The moral of the story is : let authors tell the stories they want to tell. If they wanna be historically accurate in order to discuss very real issues, then fine. If they want to create an escapist setting that has a completely different set of dynamics as compared to the real world, that is also fine. But let's please stop acting like an author choosing to depict (and criticize) the harsh reality of how medieval society and war affected women is somehow engaging in sexism of his own. He is not. We do not think George condones or likes torture because of what happened to Theon, and we should not think he condones or likes sexual violence because of what befalls some of the female characters. Ultimately his world is extremely harsh to men and women alike, because that is how he views the real world, both today and in the Middle Ages, and this is what he wants to discuss, despite the fantasy setting. People who do not wish to experience that kind of story are free to enjoy the countless other kinds of stories that exist. No piece of art is for everyone, nor should it be. Great art cannot be born if you fear offending people's sensibilities.

[@kristofferrosvall8709]

This was great! I used to be in the "it's historical" camp to an embarrassing degree. Don't remember when or why I started to shift. It absolutely often is an easy and lazy way to create conflict and I agree that women writers often do a better job with it. I have read Kindred both Parable books and Dawn by Octavia Butler this year. Sure those books are not mediveal fantasy but the way she depicts this kind of violence is so good. It never feels gratuitous almost always fade to black but it has all the impact and is horrifying in a way SoIaF/GoT never is. I believe women when they say that men in certain circumstances scare them or make them feel uncomfortable just by the men being close by. The way Butler depicts that fear made me understand it in a new way and it must be exhausting when that happens. How she wrote it makes it serve a completely different purpose than it does in a lot of other fiction I have read. Hope this comment is somewhat clear I always find it a bit hard to write in english.

[@Bookborn]

Gosh Octavia Butler is just the cream of the crop, though. Her writing is SO excellent, and shows how you can be both pretty brutal and visceral while keeping the end goal/your characters in mind. I mean Parable of the Sower is not for the faint of heart, but it never crosses the boundary into gross, imo.

[@GeekFurious]

I see people saying something like, "WHY DO WE KEEP REPEATING THE WORST OF OUR HISTORY???" Because of baby babble like "stop showing this type of violence in fantasy"... where we have to pretend terrible things aren't real because someone is worried it "promotes" terrible things. No. When you show terrible things as terrible, you keep the idea it is terrible ACTIVE in the minds of the masses. Once you stop telling stories about terrible things, the terrible things have to be RETAUGHT as active and terrible to the masses who have not only forgotten they were so prominent, but convinced themselves they were hyperbole.

[@GeekPhilosophy]

Thank you so much for this video! It's an important topic, and your care and thoughtfulness really comes through.

[@praetorxyn]

Interesting analysis. I will say George's writing comes off as oddly horny at times, but then Wheel of Time is my favorite series, and a lot of people say Robert Jordan was obsessed with womens' dresses. So... I just read what I like. I loved A Song of Ice and Fire, and taken as a collective fandom, I've probably gotten more enjoyment out of it than anything else, as I've spent years deep diving into the theorycrafting rabbit hole, and you can't really do that when an author actually writes books and finishes series. But in hindsight, the more I think about ASOIAF, the less I enjoy it. I can't really get into the why of this without spoiling you on tone, so I'll leave it there.

[@gregv3629]

Darkspell, by Katherine Kerr, is a rare example of a book that includes a villain using this type of violence against men.

[@MoniquetheBookGeek]

Amazing video, research and discussion! I discovered your channel very recently and have been binge watching your videos. You are quickly becoming one of my favorite Booktubers!

[@kyle4693]

Great video! Thanks for putting this together. I can’t wait for the first law series!

[@NaritaZaraki]

Chef's kiss, no notes, 10/10!! ^_^ I have nothing to add to this so I'm just gonna make an offering for the algorithm to spread this far and wide!

[@lightningtiger7721]

I really resonated when you started talking about being exhausted about this topic being used in books. I try to be very careful with most people when I recommend a book that has SA in it. Speaking from personal experience, I used to love stories like a Clockwork Orange, but the type of violence in that books makes it hard for me to revisit it. I don’t know, I think I’ve become more sensitive to that type of violence and I really am just tired of reading it. Weirdly though, I’m also not as sensitive to this stuff as I may like. Like when you read passages from Sword of Destiny, I honestly forgot the books did those and often when the women in my life point out weird descriptions, those same descriptions tend to fly over my head. I do wonder if this stuff is being more well written in modern stuff by newer authors publishing within the last five years. Of course our most popular reads are always going to color the conversation, but it does make me ask if we are headed in a good direction. Then again, considering “non-con” is still a popular tag people have used to describe popular books, maybe not. Either way, good video. Gave me a lot to think about.

[@Bookborn]

I think in general, there is just continually being so much MORE to read that it's easier to find things that hit particular wants more and more. And I do think as we talk about these conversations it does change things. TBH, if I had to guess, I bet Abercrombie internalized a lot of the GoT discussions because I know Martin was a huge inspiration for The First Law. I'd like to think those conversations contributed to why he did such a great job portraying those things!

[@howardgreenwich490]

Thank you for this. You do booktube a true service. I think that authors that cross the line into voyeurism when depicting SA open themselves to social critique. For me, one of the worst offenders was the explicit and misogynistic SA scenes in Paolo Bacigalupi's Wind Up Girl. He spilled way too much ink describing the SAs than necessary for the narrative, and it really felt like it became a main attraction.

[@paulnamaste]

Thank you so much for your more nuanced approach to this topic and I appreciate your insistence that we can both love and criticize something. As a sociologist I try to get this point across all the time, especially when talking about society. Like you talk about lazy writing, when people shout America love it or leave it in response to criticism that is just lazy thinking. Keep up the great work!

[@marielyortiz9763]

my main argument against "it's historical" is that they're not history books; they're not about Earth (or alternate Earths), or even humans, sometimes. SA doesn't HAVE to be historical or accurate to the book/story. At all. Just as they choose which aspects of our history to include and use in their stories (eg, "medieval" industrial/tech development levels) they can choose what NOT to include. I'm more likely to believe that SA doesn't happen than to believe giant fire-breathing dragons exist, so it's not like it wouldn't work with the suspension of disbelief or what-have-you

[@charliecundiff]

This was the first thought I had... it's fantasy! It could be however you want it to be.

[@jamesmorseman3180]

@@charliecundiffthen you’re not actually reading the book lol

[@charliecundiff]

@@jamesmorseman3180 you'd mean "writing the book" if you were literate

[@bobbob-cd9yl]

My take: I've changed my stance a lot in the past when I was a kid thinking that it should be portrayed it's reality. However since coming to book tube and reading books that deal and have commentary on sexual violence and other acts of violence against women or men in general. I think while it's important not to hide away from the portrayal it is also incredibly important to handle it with care in a way that is respectful of the topic and in so actually has something to say about it or in general just be meaningful. It should be represented as it is, but not in a way that gives it too much power or in a way that removes all the implications or meaning behind it. Sorry if I don't make a lot of sense, it's also hard to talk on this without refrencing books that have tackled this. In general I personally don't agree with the notion of "it happened lets portray it" as when choosing to portray something there comes intention. And I feel that intention when doing so is INCREDIBLY important. There have been times when I have read sexual violence and there really was nothing behind what was being shown other than a isolated scene from the rest of the narrative of sexual violence and it left me feeling really confused and honestly it just did not even offend me, it more so irritated me at how lazily and trivially it was used and depicted. Fridging is a whole other discussion for another day Really at the end of the day INTENT is the main part of it. And it's in no way a black and white subject. Everyone will have their own personal lines they draw and thats all fine

[@Bookborn]

Could not agree MORE. Intent matters SO MUCH, and I think it's obvious when the intent is "Set dressing" versus "this is an important thing for my character and I'd like to portray it well"

[@RPGDruid]

There is one simple answer that can remove the need to even have this conversation: An author should write as they would naturally be inclined to write without worrying about what the audience says. The only thing historical about a fantasy book is that it is a book that has been written. If you don't want certain subject matter in books or can't handle it then this is on you to wrap your head around and decide to continue or not. The artist shouldn't be willing to concede to any claims of the audience, they should largely remove themselves from anything other than the writing itself, although of course people want celebrities, and the press wants interviews these days. Sure, people aware of criticism write differently and maybe listen to an audience but it was natural for them to consider the criticism, it's just that it's fundamentally unnecessary to do so. Beyond that, you make a useful point in that it's not necessarily the worst that could happen to a woman in real life, in their own subjective perception.

[@Donaithnen]

The one case i know of where this kind of thing is treated as not just something that happens to women is in the Valdemar series by Mercedes Lackey. Once near the end of the first trilogy the female protagonist is assaulted, and once near the end of the second trilogy the (gay) male protagonist is assaulted. Neither case is treated light heartedly or in a titillating manner. The trauma and recovery needed after such an event is perhaps glossed over a bit more than it should be (due to "magical healing") but is at least acknowledged. Also it's funny how worked up some people get about "historical accuracy" when saying that treatment of women was normal during medieval times (which is arguably true, though as you point out is not necessarily relevant) while some people (the same people? I dunno) get worked up about "historical accuracy" when saying that people of color just did not exist in medieval times (which is blatantly false, but also not necessarily relevant even if it was true.)

[@katerinmercedes9392]

You are so right about this topic. I myself tend to avoid books that focus on that type of violence and/or dismiss it as a result of the times. And regarding it happening to boys/men sometimes is even more sad because they kind of make it seem as a achievement or something to be proud of, for example I remember reading WoT and being so sad for Matt, he was assaulted and she even put a knife on him but at the end is like that never happened and he cares about her. It’s just wrong in so many levels.

[@mchlle94]

Uhmm...and they don't make it seem that way when it's done to women? (which is like, constantly)

[@thetrueholybob434]

Amazing video. This is definitely not talked about enough. My favorite point is how it's rarely disccused when it comes to me and young boys. For all the criticism berserk gets and though some of it is very right I've always loved the story because when SA happens it changes the character in some way and its a little more indiscriminate between both sex.

[@jackinthebox1993]

God, I love to hear Joe Abercrombie doing right by the readers once again, especially in hindsight. I'm so glad when authors can be both adult and tasteful in the same light. 📖

[@Bookborn]

I love using Abercrombie as an example, because everyone seems to think that if you "do it right" you have to be squeaky clean or somehow "lesser". Abercrombie shows your books can be just as brutal and explicit and still handle this stuff with care.

[@SuperEkkorn]

Late I know, but I felt I have smt to add. Abt GoT, not ASoIaF, when I first watched the wedding between Dany and Drogo, I was like, fine, it was consensual in the book, but she was 13 and not old enough to meaningfully do that, so in the series they showed the "reality" of it. Then I grew a braincell, and realised that D&D actually love to depict SA, and also that they still kept the "love story". Which, seen from the vp of a 13yr old, fairly naive girl, sure, but not from a 16-17 yr old when it started with literal SA. Not to victim blame Dany, but she's a fictional character, and the framing of the whole ordeal was abysmal. Then, and I'm not gonna spoil anything, ppl who know, knows, there's a storyline in s5, which was NOT in the book, where they not only treated female characters as completely disposable, but also framed the assault with mood lighting after the fact. And the character in question later said she was happy that it happened, bc that allowed her to shed her humanity and evolve into her final form. Which, like, wtf? I stopped watching the show the episode prior bc I saw what they were doing, and tbh I was beyond fed up with the bad writing, but they just did that. And called it a romantic interest to the actress. And waited with baited breath for her to turn 18 so they could just put her through it. At the same time, Natalia Tena, who played Osha, asked if she could appear hairy in some nude scenes for historical accuracy, but was denied bc "no one wants to see that". I respect GRRM as a writer, he's got a lot of flaws, and his scenes aren't always presented impeccably, but by the old gods and new, his story was done so dirty by those hacks. Tbh, I can't think of any reason to actually depict violent SA unless it's from the victim's pov, and even then framing is everything. Far too often it's presented in a titilating way, and I've more or less completely stopped consuming media w/o checking doesthedogdie at this point.

[@starcrysis23]

The reality of it? They changed it. It was a seduction in the book, and a quite gentle one at that, that’s why she fell in love with him.

[@nicolasreed2868]

I love this take on the issue. Such terrible acts shouldn't be dismissed as a product of the times when the struggles are still alive today. I think if you use assault in a story there should be less focus on it as a narrative point, with more focus on how it affects the emotions and worldview of a character. My favorite example of this is from She's Come Undone. Delores is an unapologetically real FMC, and she was written by a man! As a man myself I may not relate as well as some women, but it is great to see men putting effort into female characters as people rather than narrative devices.

[@bobbob-cd9yl]

Yeah I agree with the sentiment that using it as a narrative device just feels wrong, even worse would just be using it for no reason at all other than "aesthetic reasons" authors can do so much more with the topic and when they are done well it can make for amazing commentary. I am privledged enough not to have suffered sexual violence in my life, but reading some books that depict it in a really mature manner with lots of commentary has really helped me in understanding the subject a lot more.

[@Bookborn]

I think occasionally using it as a narrative device can work - as long, like you said, there is focus on the victim in some capacity. But as the commentor said below, I just hate when it's used for "aesthetic" reasons.

[@Flammewar]

⁠@@Bookborn I‘m a man and I never experienced SA and for obvious reasons it’s not really conversation topic with my female friends. There were a few fictional SA scenes that really helped me to grasp how horrible SA is and why many people feel so uncomfortable with it. For example, the movies Promising Young Women, The Last Duel and Once Upon a Time in America really horrified me and made me aware of it.

[@adamborst]

Great breakdown on this. I wonder if a part of the lack of nuanced conversation around this is the, I assume, predominance of male fantasy readers and authors. I'd speculate that males can't necessarily empathize with what's happening in those scenes, or it's so much a part of the fantasy genre, or even modern books/tv/movies that we've been desensitized a little bit. Also, what if all of a sudden all these assaults were reversed and it was all men/boys getting brutalized in that way. Would there be more of an outcry and more of a thoughtful analysis as to the opposition to how often this happens in fantasy? I'd like to think yes, but what does that say about us all then? Thanks again for the insights, lots to think on here.

[@Bookborn]

I think, in part, the conversations can break down because people feel attacked. Maybe by feminism as a whole, maybe that we are attacking a book they love, or perhaps that we think all men are bad. Obviously, none of these are necessarily true, but it can put people on their guard.

[@GreavesEc]

The outrage wouldn't be by straight men. It'd be the fact that, if the assaults were perpetrated by men, they'd be seen as demonising the "queer" people or whatever. It already happened with one SPFBO9 book that had a boy being assaulted fairly early on. Everyone who has mentioned it in a review, has claimed that it's homophobic.

[@happilyevernever4289]

​@@GreavesEc yikes. It makes you wonder why they think think boys/men being raped in a story has anything to do with homophobia? Very sus to me, it's like they're telling on themselves.

[@Punkandcannonballer]

I find that the "it's historically accurate" books and argument tends to also somehow be historically inaccurate when accurately depicting the high degree of sexual violence against men. Can't have our male heroes be assaulted, but it's tooootally fine for women, and in fact enhances their character! 🙄

[@marieescure1216]

Thank you for making this video, it's really important

[@matthewdeancole]

I think what is important, is if the violence fits the world. Is it a brutal world in general for everyone? People were boiled, burned, disemboweled, drawn and quartered, pulled apart by horses back then. While Westeros is based on medieval Europe, lands outside Westeros e.g. Meereen, Yunkai, Astapor, Pentos, Myr and Lys are different in culture and customs. I think what Theon Greyjoy goes through is worse than anything a female character is subjected to. Ridley Scott's film, The Last Duel, focuses on a historic rape case settled by duel. It is worth watching.

[@nathanielanderson6356]

I think it is crucial to draw that line of sexual violence being historically accurate at a point where it isn't either glorified or brushed aside. I think it is a bigger issue on the sequels to Game of Thrones. There are a few characters who use women or assault women and it just seem to be used as a tool to show how bad they are. If you thought Game of Thrones handled it less than ideally then you may struggle with the upcoming books.

[@tmrogers87]

Thank you for this video. Liking and commenting for increased engagement, so that the algorithm can spread this further.

[@mchlle94]

Great video about how point of perspective matters when it comes to issues like violence against women. How is something portrayed? Who are we supposed to emphathize with? What fantasy is being presented to us as something to indulge in? More often than not, fantasy is made by men for men, and unfortunately, men have problematic ways of looking at women/treating women like objects, plot points, etc. We need to acknowledge this.

[@readbykyle3082]

Excellent video! Lots of great points with a lot of nuance!

[@Bookborn]

Thanks for being my editor 🙏

[@andrewf7732]

Great video and you explain the controversies very well. Tangential to this topic, I find it interesting that most readers aren’t triggered by murder (like assassinations in books). In general, violent deaths are rarely controversial, especially in fantasy. People often love and root for these characters. But if that character betrays their friend, they are suddenly the most hateable person ever. I just find this interesting that murder = ok, betrayal (or other vice) = unforgivable. I’m guilty of this myself and I sometimes ponder why this is.

[@bidossessi]

YES, this right here!!!

[@Bookborn]

Ok this is SUCH A GOOD POINT and something I've thought about a lot! I got majorly downvoted once in the Sanderson reddit because I said Oathbringer was verging on too violent for me to read and people freaked out about how Sanderson is squeaky clean. And I'm like...yeah but like Oathbringer is insanely violent?? Why are we so desensitized to that?? And you've nailed it on people we like/dislike. It's an interesting phenomenon. Maybe I should explore it for a future vid.

[@vesnasucov8065]

I think that part of the reason for this may be the reader's personal experience. For example, murder is not something that's so prevalent in ordinary person's life (of course, depending on where one lives, etc., for some people it may be an everyday reality, unfortunately), while being betrayed by a friend, or abused, or in some way s*xually harassed or assaulted is way more common and, therefore, relatable. If it didn't happen to you, it probably happened to someone you know or your friend knows, so we tend to feel more strongly about such situations.

[@davidfrederiksen3185]

​@@vesnasucov8065it's also important to note that violence mostly is a man thing. At least in fantasy it's mostly men fighting and experiencing violence and so on. Not that woman don't but unfortunately woman often experience that in the home not on a battlefield or in the streets

[@jrpotter9659]

12:10 I disagree that authors use that as the worst thing and can't think of anything else. Using the example of ASOIAF, Catelyn and Cersei both lose children and I don't think anyone would argue that it was written as if it were lesser pain than (or even equal to) rape. I think it is fairly prevalent in literature simply because it is easier to write a physical crime than one dealing with the breaking of relationships.

[@Dontonethefirst]

Reread Dany's first chapters in GOT and then some chapters in ADWD. You'll find a small detail that really made me appreciate Martin's long term thinking on this.

[@monachowdhury6810]

One of the reasons i love works by Brandon Sanderson is because he never uses sexual assault as a tool for character development. In the annotations for Warbreaker, he specifically said this. One of his female characters there goes through an awful lot to come out stronger. But never sexual assault. Sanderson said he felt it would be gratuitous to make his character also get raped and he felt the character could still come out stronger without violence of that sort. I endorse this philosophy.

[@theshahunshah5408]

There are male characters in ASOIAF who had sexual violence happen to them.

[@rg-wj6rm]

One other tangential point that I notice is even more prevalent than SA in fantasy is the *threat* of SA. One line sentences that imply that women can suffer a fate worse than death, or that maybe they would suffer more then men. I read a book where a male character indicated that a female character would be better off (tw) committing suicide because they were under attack without ever really considering that as an option for himself, implying he was not under as much danger purely because of the implied threat of SA. These tend to just be single lines in large books, often throwaway without anything ever actually being explicitly described. But they showcase how authors can view SA almost as window dressing for their setting, ways to populate the background without ever really grappling with it. I wanted to discuss a specific book that I know you did read, but mentioning in context of the plot would be potentially spoilers for others. But there is a female written standalone fantasy book that does deal with violence against women as an aftermath to war, and I felt that one was able to capture it as more than just part of the setting

[@voluntarism335]

I would rather be raped than skinned alive, body parts chopped off and torn apart by horses. So yeah there are things worse than rape.

[@MargaretPinard]

I know that early scene in Outlander was a flash-point for many readers. I'm glad you've put some thought into picking apart our historical generalizations!

[@becca_98]

What do you mean with flash-point?

[@MargaretPinard]

@@becca_98 I guess that wasn’t a particularly apt word but I was trying to be vague to avoid spoilers! I’m thinking of the spanking scene, and how some readers stopped there, and some let it go with a shrug and a pass for ‘historical context’.

[@becca_98]

Ohhh I got it! Yeah that scene was rough for me too, I think the Outlander series could get its own video about exploitation of suffering, and the danger of the "its historical" argument

[@MargaretPinard]

@@becca_98 Definitely!!

[@jacknixon2812]

As a wannabe writer, I find such discussions useful in help me shap my work. I also find it lazy to rely on such scenes, but I also feel it often glorifies the act, and see where you're coming from with the whole Dany stuff

[@killer_rabbit42]

My main issue with the "it's historical" argument for things like Game of Thrones is that if they were so concerned about historical accuracy, they wouldn't have magic, zombies. & dragons in it. The stories are set in a fictional world with fictional creatures. Yes, these stories can be loosely based on our world history, but that doesn't mean they have to bring everything they thing is historical into them.

[@oddguy116]

Interesting video, I completely agree with your criticism about how the relationship between Dany and Drogo was portrayed in the books. It reminds me of an interview I saw of GRRM mentioning how the show made Dany's wedding night more r*pey than the events in the book, which he described as more of a seduction. ASOIF is probably my favorite book series but IMO much of the criticism about the presentation of certain issues is well deserved.

[@Bookborn]

Obviously I haven't watched the show, but the people I talked to about the book with told me about how that first scene goes in the show. In some ways, I could see how they thought they were making it better by making it explicit, but ultimately I don't think it was a good idea because at least you can feel Drogo isn't a monster in the books: like yes, it's obviously NOT consent and still very gross, but something about that scene at least told you something about him. idk if that makes sense lol

[@IshtarNike]

I absolutely love this video. It's especially important that you pointed out that so many responses about historical accuracy ignore the arguments being made about framing and implicit messages, and attack a strawman. This reminds me of a discussion on nudity in the GoT show that i saw on Reddit. So many people were shouting about how nudity is in the books and how some of the actresses were cool with the nudity. But they're completely ignoring that there's more than one way of dping nudity. Nudity can be framed in so many ways, and the criticisms of the nudity on the shoe were about how clearly objectifying it was. With scenes clearly throwing full fromtal female nudity for the audience ro enjoy, and not just because its naturally occurring. Casual nudity in TV is totally different, and usually the actors, no matter how hot, just look normal and quite boring. Not so when the show is clearly picking essentially porn angles to titilate the audience. Sadly people get very confused between gratuitous objectification and RESPECTFUL objectification. Shows can be realistic without using sex and sexual violence in unthinking and crude ways. Personally I'm going to go further than you and say the reason we don't see the FULL historical accuracy of the boys and men being raped and abused on these shows is because on some level the creators and the audience feel like there's something MORE disgusting and shocking with that, instead of when it happens to women. Which just suggests to me that either they don't care as much when it happens to women and girls, or on some level they do just kind of enjoy using it as an excuse to show large amounts of sex and nudity.

[@alexmarsh8464]

Loved the video. As a man who tries to be thoughtful in recommendations, it is always something I struggle with, especially because I really do love the ASOIAF series. No spoilers, but there is at least one example of similar violence portrayed on a man later in the series. It’s still not quite the same, but similar

[@Bookborn]

I think it's also okay to just be like "I love this book, also it deals with some of xyz issues if that bothers you". I always appreciate SO MUCH when people give me a warning, it honestly helps.

[@samm8190]

@@Bookbornthus why people have said to never read Prince of Thorns.

[@Bookborn]

lmao YES. Actually it was someone I very much trust in this case, which was my husband 🤣 He was like, you will not make it through this.@@samm8190

[@danhaycraft9321]

Early medieval historian here. The "it's historical" argument simply doesn't work....because even when an event happened the portrayal is not historical. You can argue "it's fantasy". but not "historical." Now, what do I mean--my specialty is Viking history and I cannot read historical fiction about Vikings anymore. To use an example--historical fiction tends to portray Christianity with all of our "modern" negative stereotypes lumped in--the religion that had already caused the Salem witch trials--when Christianity was still a very new and evolving religion. The pagan narrator of Bernard Cromwell's "The Last Kingdom" seems to basically have a modern point of view, complete with an anti-religious and second-wave feminist perspective--when I can guarantee his point of view would be completely different. So every event in that series--while many if not most historical events happened--(I do have problems with a few)--is distorted through our narrators "modern" perspective. Cromwell is particularly bad at removing presentism from his work, but the same is true in modern fantasy--including GRR Martin. That is the problem with "it's historical." Yes, violence against women happened, but it always has and certainly wasn't glorified, in at least Western societies it was condemned, and medieval kingdoms weren't powerful or centralised. So, in a kingdom with a far less centralised and powerful government--eg why take it to the courts when that's a whole lot of legal trouble and no result guaranteed when you can settle it quickly and privately with a dagger in a back alley--old-fashioned vigilante justice? If we want to portray it accurately, we'd have to get ALL of the social issues involved, including social hierarchy, views on government, etc.--which, unfortunately, we can't. This is just one example, but we dupe ourselves into thinking our highly litigated society is the best way to solve these issues--and assume that some poor girl in 1300 would agree with us. I think we'd be surprised. My two cents. The only thing historical about it is that violence has always happened. I hope this makes sense.

[@jamesmorseman3180]

You made a comment saying the “historically argument” doesn’t work then proceeded to lay out in two paragraphs why it works perfectly fine?

[@danhaycraft9321]

@@jamesmorseman3180 Key phrase you missed: "If we want to portray it accurately, we'd have to get ALL of the social issues involved, including social hierarchy, views on government, etc.--which, unfortunately, we can't."

[@afont13]

Berserk is a manga that features sexual violence quite often and is typically criticized (rightfully so) for it but interestingly enough, it’s one of the few works of fantasy that depicts a male character being sexually abused most notably THE MAIN CHARACTER

[@DiomedesRangue]

Good video! Im not sure I'd ever write a scene like that, but Im always happy to hear nuanced takes on difficult topics. One of my favourite films is Martyrs and I think it's the perfect example of handling these intense forms of violence with the respect they deserve. These are the type of experiences that change people's lives and to have it not be the entire focus of their story once it happens is not treating it with the weight it deserves. I think there's something to be said about our culture being desensitized to physical violence, so when people are looking to create a shock they switch to other kinds. It's pretty lazy IMO.

[@Ardenator1]

Wow, you really blew me away with your point about this stuff happening to men too. I have multiple buddies who endured this kind of violence as boys, but I've never read a single fantasy book where this has happened to a male 😮

[@anonymousname5860]

This is a good video. I agree wholeheartedly. Just because you enjoy art doesn’t mean you cannot critique or analyze the more problematic or controversial elements. I think it does a disservice to both the art and the topic the author engages.

[@samm8190]

Thanks for having a nuanced well thought out video on this topic. While I wouldn’t describe myself as a feminist, it really bugs me how many times assault is presented as titillating in some manner both in books and movies. The question of, how careful should you be when dealing with these answers should be answered with “more careful than you think.” I appreciate your take and that you’re not trying to put people down or score virtue points, but actually present thoughts on a difficult issue.

[@laurablakeauthor]

My historian brain was tingling during this. A really great video. Good research. Happy your essays are back. Get ready for the influx of comments 😂 Prima nocta is noted in the epic of Gilgamesh which is the oldest known book in the world (meaning it is the first book we have found that is written down on tablets). So, the idea has been around for a very long time 😂

[@Bookborn]

lol yes, the research mentioned that! So funny that they think it never *actually* happened. I love when a myth has just been around since the dawn of time 🤣

[@laurablakeauthor]

@@Bookborn what a story to summarize Earth and our time here. 😂

[@marianamasbooks]

Great video! 🔥 And such synchronous timing! Just yesterday I listened to a historical podcast that talked about exactly this topic! Its a podcast called We Are Not So Different, with medievalist historian Eleanor Janega. She also has a book about women in the Middle Ages called The Once And Future S*x that I really want to read! 🔥 In that episode she talks about what you said of data not supporting the “historical “ argument. Also, why is violence against women the single “historical” fact authors want to focus on?? Like... it’s a fantasy book, none of it has to be historical, so why make that topic the most important “historical” fact they choose to defend?? 😡 Also, all those people giving you historical facts... I’d want to check their sources lol because usually those facts are more internet myths than anything else 🙃 none of them take the time to do the research you did before commenting. Anyway, great video! Than you for making it!! 🔥🔥🔥

[@Bookborn]

Yes, I found it fascinating how many things I thought were "historical" before doing this video that were, in fact, myths! There's a lot of pervasive internet legends out there. And I'm def going to go check that podcast out!

[@marianamasbooks]

@@Bookborn the episode I referenced is called Game of Thrones and Medievalism. They also have a couple of episodes on Medievalism in video games that I’ve yet to check out, and many other interesting topics! Medieval history is so interesting to learn, especially as a fantasy fan which is how I first became interested haha 🤓

[@aarondubourg3706]

Ome thing too, a major tool SciFi and Fantasy authors have and have historically used to counteract censorship is Allegory. Like Vampires are steeped in Allegory for example. The thing is many of these authors do use Allegory in other areas (like sword isn't always just a sword) but forget Allegory when it comes to violence towards women. I have read a few stories where sexual violence towards boys either happens or is alluded to tho. Berserk and Luck in the Shadows being 2. Heck the first canon Non-Consent scene in Berserk is towards the male protagonist iirc and the MC in Luck in the Shadows gets warned about some thug soldiers that they'll go for boys in there's no girls "available." MC does get Non-Consented later on too. Maybe it's because I've been desensitized to female violence, but I had a much more horrifying reaction to these 2 Male MCs getting Non-Consented than I had with many Female characters.

[@rebeccam7051]

If you're looking for fantasy novels where this kind of violence directed at men is included, I'd actually want to recommend RA Salvatore's long-running Legend of Drizzt series, but especially the more recent ones, in which Salvatore is a bit more explicit about how many of the male characters are actually survivors and how it's affected them long term. (Much like ASOIAF, the Drizzt books get a much worse rap than they deserve when it comes to the excesses of 90s fantasy.)

[@melissaisloud7404]

Lord Varys and Theon Greyjoy were both castrated. Jaime Lannister was sexually abused by his own twin sister since childhood. I would consider those three examples of sexual violence against men. Theon being forced to violate Jayne Grey by Ramsey Bolton is also a form of assault against Theon as he was forced into the sexual act. One could even say Ygritte coerced Jon into bed, and Lysa Tully Arryn without a doubt sexually assaulted LittleFinger when they were teens. If you look into the backstories of a lot of the GOT male characters then you’ll see George doesn’t discriminate with the violence. It’s pretty evenly layered when you consider the histories of the characters as a whole.

[@adamnesico]

Jaime abused?

[@topsyturvygirl]

Wow this was a conversation that needs to be had. Yes conflating fantasy sexual violence to purely historic violence is weird. Like you say violence against women was not condoned historically and there is no evidence that there is any less now. Sexual violence is not historic, it’s relevant. It’s like calling theft in fantasy a "historic crime". Sexual violence in fantasy should show characters up like it would today. It annoys me when this violence is used as character growth, almost like a right of passage, when as you say, there are other ways for women to grow, and sometimes it comes across like women need to experience it to fully mature.

[@tonyrosario1940]

This was a refreshing topic and video. Thank you for calling these issues out. 🍻

[@konstantinpobedonotsev5589]

I wonder if the prevalence of “violence” is treated as the absolute worst thing that could happen to a woman is socialized. It’s SO at the forefront of societal discussion these days that I wonder if it creeps into the writing as well.

[@Rkcuddles]

Dang you are brave opening this can on the internet, as you say, nuance is rare out here. I stopped reading game of thrones because of the rampant over the top violence of all kinds… so that’s my bias. Def thinking about the points you made… I viewed violence against women or children in stories as the author’s way of demonstrating that the villain is capable of ‘unspeakable evils’. As in, it’s a literary technique to evoke the disgust emotion in the reader, so that it can then be used to immerse them deeper into the story. I personally don’t like that particular emotion being used to manipulate/draw me in. But the point is, authors have to resort to this particular type of violence because folks are desensitized to so many other forms.

[@AseAPS]

So, I'm writing a book where the topic is problematic power structures, this includes S. Assault. I think you have to walk a very fine line between showing enough to explain why the act is so horrible and at the same time, make sure it doesn't read like glorifying the act. I think these kinds of conversations need to be had, and I think books are a great place to do it. That said, yes, I have seen this handled really poorly often enough that I don't want my writing to come off that way. Edit: I actually have two assaulters. One targets men using her position to get what she wants from them, while holding their jobs over their heads.

[@rg-wj6rm]

Great video! I think what bothers me with the argument about historical accuracy is that it pressupposes that we should treat modern books written today but inspired by history in the same way as historical books written during that time period. It's like the opposite issue people have of modern readings of historical works ... we do historical readings of modern works. As if the historical inspiration is limiting the ability of the author to do something different with it

[@avinashreji60]

Even though we still have a long way to go, we live in the most prosperous, peaceful and free time in human history

[@GoldenMechaTiger]

Great video. I think you mostly hit it spot on except for one thing. I think sometimes people actually are saying the book is morally wrong for including sexual violence not just that they don't like reading about that.

[@Tuonela0]

The last point about the argument was the most important. Women may not want to read these and it's totally their right to do so. My only issue with this topic altogether is that violence against women and minors is becoming such a taboo that story based art is getting sterilized from it. I abhor violence but just like you said violence for the sake of showing violence repels me from a story. However, I am seeing a lot of examples that people just don't wanna deal with this general topic and as a result refrain from using it in their story even if the story gets stronger. I see widespread self censor on this. Fantasy setting might be the area that resists this best.

[@heatherauton655]

YT A Voyage through Worlds did a great rant about the excessive violence in Eleventh Cycle that seemed to delight in such scenes. I haven’t seen any females loving this book. Hobb ROTE surprised me (and I read them as they were released) because males actually experienced torture, abuse, trauma. Women did too, but it was evenly split and always fitted the narrative. Best consent scene I’ve read was in novella A Hired Blade by JC Rycroft, and such a breath of fresh air to read. It’s why LOTR still burns bright as a guide to great fantasy. Abuse of women for “entertainment “ just isn’t needed. In the Empire series Mara doesn’t have to be a badass fighter in order to be dangerous in the Game of the Council. The Handmaids Tale lives fully in this space of abuse, but all who don’t submit are in danger. Atwood’s June has never left me, not since I read it when it was released. The TV adaptation is possibly the best book to TV ever. Each reread though harrowing acts to raise your rage, to fight even now to works against real political dangers that attack women through “religion” Great video, love your work ❤