28/07/2023 EDIT: When making this video, I didn’t do thorough enough research on Stwawbewwy Milk’s situation. After learning that they’re monetizing their “vent art” depicting children s*xually and selling it to potential pr*dators and not just venting their experience for healing purposes, I no longer condone any of their actions, nor do I believe what they’re making (in my opinion) qualifies as vent art.
@gr1nm Жыл бұрын
Yeah, I agree... Luckily their twitter account was deleted/terminated as far as I know
@KazeShikamaru Жыл бұрын
And they are just fucking creepy.
@howtoshibe1715 Жыл бұрын
🙂 So you're saying im gonna cringe when u mention stawbewwy milk in this video
@appleandaria6947 Жыл бұрын
@@howtoshibe1715😂😂😂
@appleandaria6947 Жыл бұрын
@@howtoshibe1715Not trying to be mean. Just found your comment funny.
@Eosinophyllis2 жыл бұрын
my personal opinion is this: pedophilic/abusive relationships can exist in media, problematic content can exist in media. It crosses the line when it stops being portrayed as a bad thing.
@demdem79462 жыл бұрын
yeah this is honestly the only stance people should take. when being potrayed as bad, young minors know and understand why.
@NebulaBubbles2 жыл бұрын
based
@thatfishbone2 жыл бұрын
And how does one objectively determine whether it is being portrayed as a "bad thing". What about stories with unreliable, self important narrators like "Lolita". We NORMAL people can determine that Humbert Humbert is a delusional peice of shit but within the story he is CONSTANTLY justifying his actions. There ARE people who interpret the story as romantic. Does that mean we throw out an incredible peice of literature? Because some sick fuck thinks its a romance and not the exploration of the psyche of a predatory sociopath? I'm sorry but the idea that a problematic topic needs to be portrayed in a sufficiently negative light to be "allowed" is way too subjective. Fiction is fiction and is subject to interpretation and furthermore is not obligated to be moral. Concern yourself with all the VERY REAL predatory behavior and actual children being exploited for sex instead of trying to censor niche pornography on the internet. It's pointless and stupid and if you don't understand why you seriously need to spend a day away from the internet.
@thatchaoticneutral37302 жыл бұрын
Finally a normal person with an actually good opinion on the matter. Thank you for being a decent human mate.
@dreamcookie57422 жыл бұрын
Exatly
@xlilth9032 жыл бұрын
My opinion: Whenever you're going to argue with a side you don't agree with. Don't send them death threats, it's not cool.
@KaneShugar2 жыл бұрын
Correct
@BritishRat5732 жыл бұрын
i don't agree with you. sending death threats in 5 hours. /j
@strawberry_silk33642 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU , I swear to God if everyone belived this ship wars would not exist
@xlilth9032 жыл бұрын
@Nonus Businissus Thank you, I will change my comment.
@tremorraygun24702 жыл бұрын
Well if they are pedophiles, degenerates like them belong impaled on a spear
@deusnosabandono2 жыл бұрын
finally someone talking abt MINORs liking FICTIONAL MINORS and ship content w/ minors. I have seen so many mfs harassing 15yos for """sexualising""" a 17YO FICTIONAL CHARACTER LIKE IF A KID COULD BE A FICTIONAL MINOR PREDATOR ?????????? fight with real predators. not kids edit: this stills get comments, just wanna say that there is so much more context to this and no actual kids shouldnt be doing outloud sexual comments for anyone. but in reality they still do so help them dont harass them BECAUSE THEYRE ALREADY VULNERABLE
@spongie83542 жыл бұрын
I've seen an artist who had an oc shipped with camilo from encanto, the characters are both 15 year olds, the ship is Hetero, but then some people are starting to get mad and force the artist to ask what their age is, the artists age is 15 y/o, the reason the artist didn't show their age in social medias is because they used to get made fun of it. But that doesn't justify that those people who are 'concerned' just crosses the line already when asking. Comparing this to another artist, who doesn't really have their age revealed as well, has an oc shipped with camilo again, but Gay. Not a single person I found questioned the artist what their age was. I am not a homophobic, I'm part of the lgbtq but sometimes I feel like these mentioned "Fictional Character Protectors" doesn't get mad because the artist's age is not clearly stated, but because the ocxcanon ship is Hetero.
@vaishnavisingh92442 жыл бұрын
@@spongie8354 I have seen the ugly other side of this same thing! Some people harrassed a person for drawing two characters shipped (Eren and Levi from AOT, one is minor and the other isn't) but on the other side people are perfectly okay to ship Mikasa and Levi (Mikasa is same age as Eren). Those both ships are kinda iffy but I don't understand when people target one specific ship over other equally problematic ship. Same with people drawing a female ship (Ymir/Christa) and all the people in the comments going "they are straight" (it's not stated in the canon) and not even batting an eye on Eren/Christa. I personally think harassing people over fictional characters is kinda stupid but hell who would convince people
@sarahrahaman80012 жыл бұрын
@@princerufioh I mean good for you for being honest, but wtf - Don't out yourself in a YT comment section homie, the fuk
@princerufioh2 жыл бұрын
@@sarahrahaman8001 oh
@AoiFlame022 жыл бұрын
Oh yeah, reminded me of a twitter user thirsting over rage mode nezuko and then they got bombarded with hate. Turns out they were fourteen. Same exact age as nezuko
@hotcocoandart2 жыл бұрын
Gray areas? On the internet? INCONCEIVABLE
@MattStMarie-bm5sq2 жыл бұрын
your right it's all grey and can be concisdered all one area nothing is ever just black and white except with the absence of light.
@moo3422 жыл бұрын
Yeehaw
@guacbird2 жыл бұрын
i was about to sleep and i thought it said gay areas
@teteteli1072 жыл бұрын
@@guacbird same
@frrruuuuit2 жыл бұрын
@@guacbird ah yes, gay areas
@Someone-zn4dh2 жыл бұрын
The thing that even hurt is even if an artist already censored their art (putting it on tags, putting it behind password, etc etc) there Will still people who find a way to STILL LOOK AT THE ART despite all the Shield the Artist already placed in case AND THEN harass the artist for even drawing said Art to begin with.
@MelonHere202 жыл бұрын
Exactly! They're literally purposely seeking out content they don't like at that point
@isthataspider74102 жыл бұрын
Yeah that’s just uncalled for
@louise41522 жыл бұрын
this!!!
@bumblewomble2 жыл бұрын
I came here to say that. I myself am an nsfw artist and Tag everything according and I still have minors and people who shouldn't/don't like that stuff seeking it out.
@beyondtherealmsofdeath2 жыл бұрын
@@bumblewomble same!! I’ve been making less content lately because it’s boring in the specific community im in but I used to write and draw a lot. I remind people SEVERAL times when I post a fic to READ THE TAGS before they read it but people who just don’t like it will still look at it and then act like they’re the victim. Like, the adult content warning screen is there for a reason and you’re the one who consented to view the content?? How is that my fault?
@itsisabel4202 жыл бұрын
The idea of “pro” and “anti” is just so black and white. It’s like this with so many things, especially when it comes to controversy and cancel culture. You are not always going to agree/disagree with certain things, and that should be celebrated. Trying to over simplify complex ideas is more harmful than helpful.
@huh37142 жыл бұрын
it´s like the ¨left¨ and ¨right¨ of censorship
@Rosalie_YT2 жыл бұрын
i get what you mean. like, im all for my ships of fictional characters like marcanne and lumity, but when its between real people and illegal ones, its no. just no. dont do that.
@ImpChadChan2 жыл бұрын
Hmmm.... 😪 It seems I came too late to the party. That's a shame, I would have a lot to say about this. But since I'm sure no one else will read this at this point, I'll keep things focused on your main argument about: "fantasy does influence reality". And my counter-argument is: OK, it does. But when we say that "it doesn't" we mean in a very specific way. Like, it doesn't influence people to commit CRIMES! And Ok, there is an exception to this rule, which is "propagandas", yes, propagandas can incentivize people to commit crimes, and technically propaganda could be (kinda) a fictional work. BUT, lolicon is not a propaganda of anything friends. Lolicon is not made to teach anything to anyone. Lolicon is just entertainment
@amymontoya79652 жыл бұрын
@@ImpChadChan i read it 🙃, and I agree w/ u
@sirmicothesilly2 жыл бұрын
@@ImpChadChan And what exactly is “Entertaining” about l0licon to you?
@KatietheKreator Жыл бұрын
People saying that a kid is a "predator" for liking other kids is absolutely insane. bro they're both just kids. neither of them is exploiting the other or abusing the other. bruh
@mamimumemo-cho Жыл бұрын
wait until they grow up while their favs stays the same and find ppl will dogpile them as pa3dof out of nowhere💀💀💀 edit: yep, maybe MORE people should just go grow up from watching any fiction related entertainment and start acting like proper "adult" getting over their cartoon crushes and stay away from any fandom space, i'm surely can't agree enough to that.
@najpotenicewolf934 Жыл бұрын
@@mamimumemo-cho It should be more often acknowledged that people don't get over their teenage crushes in just one day, as soon as they turn 18. When you have a crush on a real person as a teenager (provided they are in a similar age group), they will age just like you. But when it comes to fictional characters, they don't. Sexual attraction to those usually fades over time, as you get older. But it takes some time.
@clappingcat6525 Жыл бұрын
I'd say on the internet most people are assumed to be adults unless stated otherwise
@roselover_8008 ай бұрын
@mamimumemo-cho Or just let people like what they like? I'm not talking about crushes but just letting people enjoy things, just because they may be adults doesn't mean they can't.
@roselover_8008 ай бұрын
If a real person is older than you (for example) it’s not going to get you any closer to their age, Im not really sure what a real persons age and a fictional characters age has to do with having a crush. tbh I really don’t understand why people care so much about fictional characters especially younger ones, I understand that they are minors and that this is bad, but their not even real children.
@Fionapollo2 жыл бұрын
pro/anti shippers are absolutely terrifying, the ways that some will go to war in order to insist/deny an accusation that they throw into the world just doesn't feel like it should be touched with a barge pole because of everything that comes with it.
@gone98202 жыл бұрын
pro/anti in everything are just pure chaos. Theyre just trying to belittle eachother to make their opinions "correct". As much as I despise BOTH pro and anti shippers, I dont care if people ship or not. I dont ship because I dont find correct to force characters into a couple but I dont mind canon ships. I just dont understand the internet. I wished the internet would let people like and dislike things.
@thoghtugs5842 жыл бұрын
@@gone9820 cause everyone thinks they're superior than other people, just cause they're behind a screen and can say whatever they want (which actually they can't cause doxxing exists and some people are capable of doing that) (Oh and because a lot of people don't like to admit their wrongs)
@gone98202 жыл бұрын
@@thoghtugs584 Agree 100%. Anonimity really inflates peoples egos. Its sad.
@thoghtugs5842 жыл бұрын
@@gone9820 either it does or it doesn't, you just can't win with stupid people
@somepersonkinda46252 жыл бұрын
Tbh while I agree with antishippers that some ships r gross n stuff, but its not like they can change it, like no matter how much they despise it stuff like this will always exist, the only thing they can do is avoid and ignore, harassing proshippers will do nothing but add fuel to the fire
@cello_animi2 жыл бұрын
I was in a proshipping server, (i am 16). I was just kinda there cause it was my friends server, I didn't interact with it much except to share doodles once or so each week. And then I found out a MAP joined the server and was welcomed with open arms... I left that server.
@bashartz Жыл бұрын
Good. Holy shit. Honestly I hope ur friend did too. And if they didn't (assuming they are a minor)? Get them the FUCK outta there.
@polak56565 Жыл бұрын
I'm in a 18+ proship server and we don't welcome maps.
@solsoups Жыл бұрын
@@polak56565yikes
@RubenDuenas1 Жыл бұрын
@@polak56565 youre still in a proship server...
@leetehehee7464 Жыл бұрын
@@polak56565and you think that makes you guys any better..?💀
@catsfurlove42002 жыл бұрын
In my personal opinion I think that intention/the persons actions are more important than what their art portrays. Because a person can distinguish between fiction and reality, but I can also understand why certain art makes people uncomfortable. I think that having a tagging system and watching your space is important. Having 18+ tags and always checking who you're interacting with online. Also making sure you aren't exposing your art to people who don't want to see it or minors (if its 18+ content especially). I've seen plenty of proshippers who talk about and actively disavow the topics they cover in great ways. People going out of their way to find and harass these people is super uncalled for and wrong, especially if they state that they don't support these things in real life. The 'don't like, don't watch' phrase applies heavily in this situation. If a person is in their own corner of the internet and is making sure only people who want to see these things (and also don't support the things they're drawing irl) are around then I don't see a problem with that. The only time I don't like it is if a person is actively spreading a narrative that these things are okay or hurting people.
@whoknows90852 жыл бұрын
A person’s intention means nothing if the impact is there
@catsfurlove42002 жыл бұрын
@@whoknows9085 Intention alone maybe, but I never said just by itself. I said followed by actions such as talking about the topic, tagging so people who want to can avoid the topic, and disavowal of certain actions alongside intentions.
@whoknows90852 жыл бұрын
@@catsfurlove4200 Thats all part of the impact
@catsfurlove42002 жыл бұрын
@@whoknows9085 You still can't ignore intention, it plays a part in determining how to deal with a person. If a person makes vent art with the intention of venting, that is very different from a troll who has the intention to bother people. One probably made a simple mistake of not tagging, and the other intentionally wanted to hurt people. Every situation is different and should be dealt with accordingly. That's why intention matters.
@whoknows90852 жыл бұрын
@@catsfurlove4200 Venting can be harmful no matter the intention. Key word: can. Doesn’t mean it’s automatically harmful even with intention. Otherwise no one would actually take issue with it. No one says to ignore intention, but even you point out the different ways this can impact a person. That’s why even you listed down possibilities measuring a person’s impact Whether one is intentional trolling or one is an honest mistake, the impact is still there. Someone got triggered or harmed by disturbing content.
@yeoboseyoitsrebel-metaloid2 жыл бұрын
Fandom drama is stupid and petty and I’m ashamed I ever took part in any of it
@javiosuniverse2 жыл бұрын
Dat part
@nakedstatue85172 жыл бұрын
Same, I will just continue to draw what I want. ^^)
@AF-bn3zo2 жыл бұрын
If I may ask how do you not let these ppl get to you about what you draw because I'm tired of being called a p£d° And feeling like I want to do the unthinkable night and day from all the death threats plz help
@nakedstatue85172 жыл бұрын
@@AF-bn3zo At first it was just annoying, but you have to remind yourself that no one knows you better than yourself. If you're not one, then it doesn't matter what 14 y/o Becky from the US says abt you lol. Just block them without engaging bc it's just wasting time.
@pisslord20002 жыл бұрын
Couldn't agree more
@tea-cat-arts2 жыл бұрын
Before I go into my actual argument, I feel like I should specify my stance on the pro vs anti argument is basically just "harasment bad, please calm the fuck down," loli/shota con is gross but there isn't really anything we can do to stop it from existing, and art containing problematic or upsetting content shouldn't be completely censorred but should only be posted in certain places and should come with a trigger warning before the piece is actually shown. I think one thing (within fan art at least) is that minors are often drawn in the same way as adults in the original media. For example, if you look at series like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, characters who are 15 and characters who are 40 are drawn with the exact same body type and facial structure and are shown being treated like peers rather than children by adults. This isn't to say that irl minors can't sometimes look like adults or act maturely, but within the context of that series in particular, there's a sense of emotional dissonance between what really qualifies as a minor. Another popular series where this is sometimes an issue (its not super consistent within the series and there are notable exceptions) is Demon Slayer. *nsfw joke/comment starts here* Like, I've seen a lot of people say "I wouldn't fuck a 15 y/o, but I would fuck Inosuke" and I think that mostly comes from the fact that most of those people aren't looking at this absolutely ripped dude with a boar head and mentally registering that he is 15 *nsfw joke/comment ends here.* Something that one of my friends brought up that I honestly have yet to research and can't confirm whether or not this is true is that Manga/Anime is seen as something thats only meant for kids highschool age and younger, so companies are pressured to make content for that demographic, but know that adults are their primary consumers, so they compromise by making characters that look like adults but are labled as children to appeal to both audiences. Again, I don't know if this is true, but I'm bringig it up because I think its an interesting idea. Another problem I've seen withing the shipping argument in particular is that the term "problematic" is so subjective and that there is no world-wide law for what is defined as a minor. Like, would it be problematic to ship a 15 y/o and 18 y/o in a non-sexual way? In some countries, they would both be considered minors. In others, neither would be. For some people, that kind of age gap just isn't a big deal, for others its straight up pedophilia. There's no one moral or legal standard to look at The only solution I personally can really think of is change social media websites to be a bit more organized about the content you can see. Tumblr has many flaws, but one thing I think they do well is let you block specific tags and more social media sites should have that kind of feature.
@mercy50042 жыл бұрын
That is a key thing about the design of characters influencing how people feel about sexualizing them. I mean a lot of people don't really know the ages of characters in the media they watch. For instance, 1st season, post time skip Attack on Titan characters. *minors*. Mikasa? She's 15 at that point in the story. Same age as Inosuke. But most people I know of who *love* Mikasa and share lewd art of her are surprised when I tell them her actual age. It just never really comes up in the anime. Same thing with My Hero Academia characters. They are all around 14 years old. But most people posting images of Bakugo with his shirt off don't think about that. Or Naruto. Almost *all* of the main characters in Shippuden are underage. Even Itachi, in the first season (when we first see him try and kidnap Naruto) is around 17 at that point. Still not an adult. In Shippuden, Gaara, Sasuke, Naruto, Sai etc are all 17. Not 18. Still a minor. The show literally makes a point that the show ends on the day of Naruto's 18th birthday. But most of the people making fanart of these characters at the time weren't thinking about that. Same with Bleach. I think part of the reason its so prelevant is that so many of the major series are Shounen or Shoujo that are about coming of age stories, and thus feature teen characters. A lot of people like characters based on sex appeal and personal tastes (especially male characters and female viewers) but don't take a moment to remind themselves that the "appeal" is coming from a literal child character. They're just wrapped up in the character concept and design. I think this is why I've seen so many people agree that lewd art of young child characters is not okay, but then either share, create, or have liked art of Highschool characters. The cognitive dissonance is there, and half the time they seemingly just forget that this character is you know, a teen=minor. On screen sexualizations of these characters don't help either, it normalizes it. Like as much as I generally enjoy fanservice that's not gratuitous, you have to admit that it is pretty problematic to feature it in these shows.
@afunkylittleguy2 жыл бұрын
I do agree that part of the issue is the way how people perceive certain fictional characters. Sometimes depending on the setting or just how people treat characters in the media can definitely tribute to minor characters appealing to adults because they aren't treated as kids or children, instead they are treated like any other adult character. The same can also be said about adult characters. I have recently seen a situation where someone claimed a character as being a teen/minor, despite the fact there are several instances that would claim otherwise. Maybe, possibly, this person is a minor and saw this character's behavior as being childish compared to other characters, so they see them as a minor, even though the Canon would argue otherwise.
@afunkylittleguy2 жыл бұрын
@@mercy5004 I think this is also a great point. I feel like shows will often skip out on bringing up how the character(s) are minor(s). I feel like shows don't show the difference between the mentality of a child versus an adult to drive home the point that "this character is a minor", they just forget about it to the point that even fans of the show have no idea if they are a minor or not.
@mercy50042 жыл бұрын
@@afunkylittleguy Very true, I think their goal is to make compelling characters that will make people want to watch/buy the material, but not accurately portray a character of that age. I think the only series about a young character where said character realistically acts their age is Yotsuba&! Featuring a five year old child, who acts and talks like a five year old. However, I think part of the reason they could get away with a realistic portrayal of a child and a child's development (as the main character) is that the series is a slice of life comedy, not an action/romance/horror/etc series. When writing characters for those other genres, I think the compulsion to "mature" them so they can engage in more complex conversations and act more independently is strong. However I feel like it "works" because the audience they appeal to (the target audience of shounen and shoujo series is 12-18 year old boys and girls respectively) WANTS to be seen and treated as more mature for their age. So it's wish fulfillment for kids/teens, but opens doors for problematic adult interpretation. I think that's also why even in American animation a lot of kid/teen characters don't realistically act like kids or teens. I think they're better at integrating more child behaviours, but when you look at the series as a whole, they aren't really acting like kids. See: Teen Titans, Ben 10, Young Justice, etc. However, again notice how all the above are Action-oriented cartoons. Even PowerPuff girls don't act their age (kindergarteners) even though they are much more childlike. Again, due to the maturation effect that writers give characters so they act more independently in action/romance/etc genres. Honestly, writing child characters is hard, and why generally, its often avoided unless the series is literally meant for kids.
@arandomidiot15932 жыл бұрын
I'd also like to add that many anime characters not only look older than they are, but act that way as well. The JoJo thing is one of the examples I tend to bring up when this subject is discussed. Jotaro in particular is the worst offender of the age vs. appearance difference, not only does he look like he's in his 30s despite being 17 but he doesn't even act like a teenager. The only cue to his age would be his outfit, as his jacket is that of a Japanese school uniform, but many non-Japanese fans wouldn't even realize that. And it completely blindsided me to learn that Giorno is *15* when he looks and acts like a grown man!
@roryza51182 жыл бұрын
10:26 Many historical artists have done some pretty messed up pieces, and it's not a new thing. I genuinely think that if you have a personal issue with vent art you should just not look at it. You can choose if you're going to look at it or not
@holographic_txt2 жыл бұрын
thats what Im saying! A TW should be enough since it says ''stop! this piece can be triggering and those are the topics talked about in it. If its smth u will be triggered by, pls skip!''. If u STILL decide to view it and get triggered, thats on u
@inkuii2 жыл бұрын
@@holographic_txt As they say, "Dead dove, do not eat"
@BritishRat5732 жыл бұрын
*me who's in the countryhumans fandom and only has done historical art and videos* wait that's not what you ment by historical- oh haha- i'ma just go-
@flidethechemist2 жыл бұрын
@@inkuii Ah yes, my favorite AO3 tag. Really, my only issue with art/fics that revolve around taboo/problematic content is if it depicts REAL people as opposed to fictional characters. I'm fine with the worst that humanity can conjure up to exist, as long as it exists in a space where minors can't see it, or readers are suitably warned from seeing the content itself.
@inkuii2 жыл бұрын
@@flidethechemist Honestly I'm iffy with all fics involving real people, and ship art in that vein (though non-romantic fanart I'm mostly fine with). I personally just don't like the idea of pairing together two people like that, without their explicit consent. That kind of stuff legitimately ruins friendships. Though I suppose there is a bit of a caveat with historical figures.
@tomatop47572 жыл бұрын
Im against a lot of abusive ships being shown as a good and romantic thing but i never considered myself as an anti. I just think that abusive/pedo/incest relationships exist to show how reality can be bad and terrifying, but it shouldn't been shown as a good thing at all.
@beyondtherealmsofdeath2 жыл бұрын
@@digigurl LMAO RIGHT
@beyondtherealmsofdeath2 жыл бұрын
That’s what being an anti is. If you would attack the artist instead of just ignoring it, that is being an anti
@kaiyodei2 жыл бұрын
only if you do? because a lot of people pull "relationship goals" or "aww look how cute"
@Sweetheart-gz5mw2 жыл бұрын
Exactly, these types of things exist, but its bad only if they portray that relationship as cute and "aww look at em" and not as bad
@LutongKambing2 жыл бұрын
So by your logic, you'd still be considered an anti? You literally described what an anti does.
@lilaortiz16902 жыл бұрын
I’m definitely more on the “anti” side of the debate, so take this with a grain of salt, but I feel like a lot of shipping of minors with adults and/or incest shipping tends to stem from a inability, for lack of a better word, to have/enjoy platonic relationships. People tend to want everything to be romantic, when it really doesn’t have to be. For example I saw and encanto post that was like “don’t ship Bruno with his nieces” and a good few of the comments were all like “but who else am I supposed to ship him with?”. Uh nobody? Because the film wasn’t about romantic relationships but familial ones? People seem to not value the type of relationship between siblings or between parent and child or an inter generational friendship as much as romantic one which is not great. Honestly society’s valuing of romantic relationships over all others is a while other topic that I could write paragraphs about, but basically chili out. Not everything has to be romantic.
@liljatupsu2 жыл бұрын
I've noticed the same thing too. If two characters have any sort of relationship at all, people will turn it romantic no matter if it's friendship, hate or literally just one character killing the other. I'm actually kind of the opposite, since I find it difficult to enjoy romance unless it's very well written
@draviren63112 жыл бұрын
I honestly would like to read those paragraphs cause I'm all for that. I love romance too, I'd call myself a hopeless romantic, but not everything needs to be romance. I absolutely adore stories depicting father/son and sibling bonds, especially brothers mainly cause my own experiences with my sister makes it hard to see sisterhood in a positive light, my heart is just touched by positive family oriented relationships because that's something a lot of people don't get to experience. I feel like people shipping characters that are related takes away from the value and importance of strong platonic and family relationships. Why can't brothers love each other as brothers and parents and children love each other in a paternal way? And on a sidenote, why can't some friendships just be platonic and not romanticized? All these relationships are just as important if not more so than romantic ones cause if or when your love life fails these are the relationships that will stand by you and help you back up. We're way too comfortable with depicting romance in media as the end all be all of life like some Disney happily ever after and that's simply not a realistic depiction of life or love
@s2sHoXXs22 жыл бұрын
@@draviren6311 Yes! I love romantic shipping, but some of my favorite """ships""" (as in, just the idea of 2 people forming or having some sort of relationship) have been purely platonic/familial brotherly ones. Like example, i like the game identity v. theres a character named murro who was abused by his uncle since he was young. But his uncle then adopted a boy named mike when he was very young, to whom he acted like a perfect father figure to. I love imagining the two of them (mike and murro) learning and healing from each others experiences later down the line and growing a family brother bond. Its very bittersweet to me and not something i could get from a romantic ship tbh.
@draviren63112 жыл бұрын
@@s2sHoXXs2 Exactly! There are just some relationships that work better platonically or as family bonds than they do romantically but I think media such as all those Disney movies and a lot of other shows and movies aimed toward a younger artist have such a big impact on putting romance on a pedestal that many people don't see nearly as much value in other forms of relationships. Two examples I can think of are from the animes Full Metal Alchemist and Attack On Titan. In FMA, the main focus is two brothers who lost their home and mother and nearly each other as well. Heck, in the more modern version of the show, it's called Full Metal Alchemist *Brotherhood* because that's literally the most important thing in the show, but people will still ship the brothers just because they care for each other deeply, like brothers. In my AOT example, one of the older but more popular ships is between a guy named Marco and my favorite character, Jean. Because Marco has such a huge impact on Jean's self image and later his decision in what branch of the military to join, as well as Marco being one of Jean's only friends as trainees, people ship the crap out of them, even though Jean has expressed interest in a girl that he's never really dropped. I do understand where the ship comes from and I don't hate it or anything, but it's nearly impossible to find art or videos depicting their relationship as what it actually was: brothers in arms, great friends. Cause everyone is like "guy made guy feel good about himself, must ship" when it doesn't always have to be romantic, we should all generally strive to have friends that support us in that way when others don't see the good or value in us. I mean how unhealthy would it be if we automatically "fell in love" with anyone who said something good about us?
@tina-uy6ce2 жыл бұрын
@@s2sHoXXs2 I play idv too. Some shipps are really cute and wholesome, like the one you mentioned, but others are really bad. ( talking about Emma being shipped with Leo or Jack with Axe Boy )
@PinkNymphetamine222 жыл бұрын
Personally, there's a lot of art that upsets me (animals in pain, csa), but in turn, I also make art that some others find upsetting (gore, horror, violence), at one point my own parents would shun me for drawing art that wasn't pleasant and I tried to stop drawing altogether because I was afraid of upsetting them... but as I grew up and my mental health took a turn for the worse, I ended up finding catharsis in comics and art that depicted violence and horror, and they inspired me to draw again. Though I finally found therapy and my mental health has improved, I still find the act of drawing and appreciating horror art as something so uniquely cathartic. I cannot in good faith say that everything I draw is out of processing trauma, sometimes it's just a personal artistic preference that makes me want to explore themes that are normally hard to navigate in the mainstream media. I can sometimes find the sterilized narrative of trauma and pain stifling and unsatisfying, but that's just me. I know not everyone should be exposed to that sort of content, I know I shouldn't have been exposed to some things when I was just a child on the early stages of 2000's internet, when there were no trigger warnings or anything as such. But here's the thing: whether I like it or not, there's people who will end up with wildly different perspectives and coping mechanisms, and sometimes that entails drawing very upsetting situations involving fictional minors, because that's the safest way they can remove power from their trauma and take control of it. I have spoken to many artists who are survivors and have been accused of heinous things just because they post nsfw art depicting stuff like that. While I cannot speak for all of them and I'm sure there might be plenty of them out there who are potential predators, I cannot know that through their art alone. You could have someone making the most innocuous and sfw art but they could also be a completely rotten person. You cannot judge someone's character or guess what they truly do in their private lives through how palatable you might find their art (although, we can agree that art that hinges on promoting harm to Real People can be very self-explanatory on what the artist stands for). I feel that a lot of antis, more than just truly believing in their stance, want to convince themselves that they're 'winning' a battle, and they're deliberately putting their self-worth on wether they're a 'good victim' or not (I believe there's some true in the idea that many antis might be victims of some sort of abuse or trauma), and they need to prove their worth by shaming those who are 'bad victims', which is only encouraged by the current way social media clout works, so they're continously encouraging each other on making noise instead of attemping to have discussion or even think about it. It sometimes feels like a cult-like behavior, and I've already seen evidence of real predators hiding among the 'anti' crowd, because once you start to parrot the exact same vitriol everyone else does, they will trust you. I don't want to say that the proship crowd is entirely without fault either. I feel most of the time, those who take the label are often victims of harrassment campaigns for their art or writing. I believe that while the general stance is anti-harrassment, they can sometimes fail to practice what they preach, and will sometimes disrespect people's boundaries if you don't agree on them 100% on what fictional content is allowed or not. That's my main point of contention though, because to be fair, I agree with most of what proship people stand for, because I've been also a target of disdain over the most harmless of ships... so yeah, I won't take a label for this conflict, but on most part, I agree with the proship side of the discussion. After all, this whole discourse occurred in the first place because of petty fandom ship wars that advanced from 'my ship is more canon than yours' to 'my ship is more moral/pure than yours'. Annnnd i don't know what else to add. I didn't think I'd write a whole essay about this issue in a youtube comment, but I suppose that's how it is.
@Felvanio2 жыл бұрын
this is very random but i love your emil pfp
@tigerfestivals51375 күн бұрын
Yup, this is about right in my experience too. Not all of it is trauma coping, mind you, but a good amount of the shipping and fanart definitely seems to be. I say live and let live, and try not to harass each other over cartoons.
@allegraalberoni2 жыл бұрын
I think that cancel culture is holding us back from having open conversations about these topics. Some don't speak their mind or just hold for fear they'd get canceled if someone interprets their opinion the wrong way, and on the other hand there's those who go cancel and harass anyone who does something wrong. It's so black and white and it reflects in every discussion we have, because siding on any topic is essentially exposing oneself to cancel culture in some way.
@goose43492 жыл бұрын
I get what you're saying but, this has nothing to do with cancel culture, this has been happening even before the phrase "cancel culture" became a popular word to throw around.
@allegraalberoni2 жыл бұрын
@@goose4349 i completely agree with you. my comment was mostly referring to the current state in which we hold back from discussing these topics because of the fear of being canceled. these problem have existed for a long time, but back in the day you could comment on these issues freely, encouraging an open discourse, and I feel like we can't do it anymore.
@itspinebro Жыл бұрын
I'm part of the people who don't speak their mind. I have opinions and I don't mind being wrong, but if they offend someone, I'd mind the dogpilling.
@miumi15382 жыл бұрын
Hello! I loved your respectful take on both sides of the anti/pro shippers. Personally I've felt annoyed by both sides and how unbelievably out of hand this topic takes either side. I apologise for the long block of text I'm about to write. Warning for what Im going to discuss, it contains topics on sexual interests: I am currently working on a psychology and art degree to be an art therapist and have taken numerous behavior classes to obtain degrees in these fields. I am still studying and do not have a degree in either field yet but by the end of the year I will \o/. One area I feel should be studied more in psychology is the art field because of how easily people like to discuss tthe psychological benefits of. One of my first classes that integrated the two was in fact a sexology class that discussed theory of sex from a psychological POV. One topic brought up in it was human attraction to certain art. Please take any further information I say with a grain of salt because this is an old field that still has not been thourghly researched and should be updated. However, it is hard to do so because of how objective it is. In this class we learned about sexually deviant interests. Now these sexually deviant actions interests are never supposed to be taken as a cause. They are more like symptoms, though I am not calling them symptoms. For example, if you have a fever this doesnt mean you have the flue, its a symptom. But if you have a fever and other syptoms of the flue you most likely have the flue. Now placing this similar mindset with art and interests, liking a "problamatic shipping/character/ action" in fiction does not mean you like or approve of an action. ie. the topic of liking villains. It means you like them, no further deeper meaning, you could add one if you want to, but in that case that is an individual's personal choice. You have the choice of agree with the person and interacting with them or you have the choice of disagreeing and walking away. No one else has the knowledge or credentials to say anything further. Those who do have the credentials would also know you cannot walk around diagnosing anyone. Which takes me to my next topic, the number of people who try to play pschologist to justify their opinion and moral standing. Its offensive and potentially harmful. People in this field go through so much study and experience to even work in the field and even with a bachelors in psychology you have no right diagnosing others. End of story. It is okay to say, "I feel uncomfortable with such and such" and avoid this thing. And personally I do feel it is an adult's job to make sure that if there are minors in the same field it also their job to make sure the area is safe for minors. However I also believe adults have the right to express free opinion and art in their own NSFW spaces. This topic relates nothing towards psychology or hides a person's intentions. I personally do not lolicon/shotocon and very much do not like shipping children because it is sus, but I also cannot label a person a pedophile. That in itself is a huge can of worms to unpack. Simply if I see those things, I click away and leave it alone. If i see it in a space with minors I report it because minors should not have to see that. I hate to be an older person that says the "I miss the old days-" bullshit but damn do I miss the old days of "Don't like, don't interact." I do not agree at all with a lot of interests and art that other artists make but in areas where they post is where I know I never will be. Even though topics like this annoy me I do enjoy when others civily discuss them because it reminds others that world is not black and white it very much all grey and various shades of grey.
@mysryuza2 жыл бұрын
Fuckin thank you 🙏
@GaetorCreation2 жыл бұрын
not just that but by not interacting with those sets of problematic media you also remove the algorithm to spread it out to more poeple that is why so many minorities tell others to stop spreading bigots post by "dunkin" on them because in reality the algorithm will only see the interactions as good and there for spread it to as many as it can for the sake of showinf what the robot belives is a good post
@mercy50042 жыл бұрын
Absolutely. I do find it troubling when I see people who actively hunt down and try to exist in spaces where they know media that upsets them is being produced, and instead of trying to remove themselves from the situation or exercise their tools to prevent themselves from seeing it... they instead try to exercise pressure to force others into blocking to banning the media they don't like. One of those "I should not *have* to remove myself from a situation I don't like, people I don't like should remove themselves from me." kind of scenarios. In a world of 8 billion other people, we have to learn to coexist with one another, and sometimes that means knowing when to leave the room for our own safety, and when we should intervene. The distinction is hard to find sometimes, I'll admit, but I think the more people come to terms that they don't have to always invite such negativity into their lives, and learn to "pick their battles" so to speak, is probably best.
@NebulaBubbles2 жыл бұрын
same
@MushyRoom772 жыл бұрын
These are my exact thoughts on the matter. Staying away from things on the internet that I find uncomfortable or disagree with I've always found to be better for my mental health anyways. When I engage, my depression and anxiety shoot through the roof. Which makes me so confused when other people who are uncomfortable, seem "comfortable" to engage things that aren't, if that makes sense...
@jesternightlight2 жыл бұрын
God, as someone who would fall under the "anti" term seeing the harassment against "pro-shippers" is genuinely disgusting, these people say glorifying toxic things is bad yet they do it themselves? People are allowed to hold opinions. Sure, they may be generally bad opinions in your perspective but it doesn't mean you have the right to harass them.
@XiaoIsMyHusbandBTW2 жыл бұрын
yes pro shippers literally tell minors to kill them selves for shipping fiction "minors" (the character was literally just short) with adults. like that's wild, and while i have seen pro shippers be super gross with shipping real lolicon and stuff, in my personally experience i haven't been harassed by them, but also i don't fall under any label since i have how black and white the world is with everything, but i guess i lean more towards a pro shipper since i think toxic ships and problematic ships are fine as long as it isn't pedophilia or something, im even kinda fine with incest, im personally never going to ship it because it's gross but it's not really going to affect anyone, but imma look at people who do funny because i've heard some weird things come out of peoples mouths who do.
@lukero8182 жыл бұрын
harassing proshippers in the most gruesome ways possible is so normalized on the internet that like, when i see other people go "hey maybe this is a bit extreme over a ship, especially because its fictional" they got harassed and called a proshipper too. i wouldnt put myself on either side because i think the whole ship war is stupid but damn its scary what they both do to eachother.
@uto322 жыл бұрын
yeah fair enough
@BritishRat5732 жыл бұрын
i think i would be a pro-shipper. as i'm fine with shipping characters, aslong as it's ok and makes sense cannonly. but i don't understand why pro-shippers get harrassed just for well, being a pro-shipper. Anti-Shippers could also be harassed witch is also horrable.
@ihatecereal17632 жыл бұрын
i dont agree with EITHER of these opinions completely but ig im more of a proshipper... i mean, in my opinion, shipping literally ANYBODY is ok as long as its legal and not hurting anybody, but i could NEVER say that it's ok to ship a minor with an adult or a pair of siblings. i ship some characters, but its mostly platonic because im just not interested in the romance aspects of a lot of the stuff i watch/play/read. i have two friends who would qualify as "anti-shippers" and i didn't mention my ships were platonic at first because i was unfamiliar with the term "platonic ship" and later realized that the way i shipped most of these characters fell under that category of shipping instead. anyway, they would always make rude remarks about it (even though if it wasn't platonic, it would still be legal and ok) such as "i used to like (character) but your opinions on him have ruined him for me." the ironic thing is that these people spread rumors about me dating multiple guys im friends with and even create "ship names" for us. and when i call them out on that, "they're just joking" or "why? you ship (characterxcharacter) so i dont see the problem with me shipping (youxthisguy)". i honestly think that their behavior is a lot more toxic than the behavior of the pro shippers im seeing on here, but obviously it's not the same for every case, since these are only two people. so yeah, all of us are bad depending on who you ask, and using these weird black and white terms to define the situation is way too confusing and should be avoided imo.
@kayussery5962 жыл бұрын
I’m so glad these controversies weren’t on the forefront when I was a child. I used to have some very problematic ships when I was a kid (adult & minor) because *i* was a minor and didn’t see myself as one. It’s only now as an adult I’m uncomfortable with what I did back then and am aware of the worrisome and problematic nature. I would have gotten LAMBASTED if I was a child nowadays.
@doubleh333lix2 жыл бұрын
a lot of anti types go realllly hard on literal children for doing that. i’ve been seeing it a lot recently. like, if a kid is shipping a child and an adult, you shouldn’t bully them, you should try to understand why they think that’s okay, as they may be being hurt.
@ranransbakery81262 жыл бұрын
@@doubleh333lix I feel a lot of people on both sides don’t take into consideration their communities need to change for the very subjects they’re defending. For antis, the culture of spraying a water hose at anyone that does anything remotely dark or moody is… silly. Even when they’re still in a point in time where maybe they don’t *truly* get why something is bad. Not everyone is gonna know X character is 12 and Y character is 22- even when sometimes it’s painfully obvious. People just lack judgement sometimes and that’s fine. For pros, the community is just… alarmingly sexual. I have rarely ever seen a proship account that WASN’T sexual. I have.. some reason as to why this might be. Because anti culture is usually pushing away the human libido, proship communities end up embracing and waving around the need of libido. A bit too much. There’s a reason a lot of people, especially minors, don’t like proshippers beyond the stuff they ship. Not everyone likes hyper sexual posting that MUST make everything sh-ta that MUST make everything in-est. that’s just… common sense I don’t think a lot of these people get. And I think it’s especially alarming when these posts are made by minors on public twitter accounts. That’s dangerous- EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. For both sides to claim their acts are in the name of minors in some way, they’re garbage at doing anything to keep minors safe in their cultures. Respect a minors boundaries, and absolutely inform them about why their actions are wrong. Even if they tell you to screw off, it’s always worth a shot. - from someone who’s neither side. I read dark, messed up stuff because often media geared to that audience is allowed to be “more interesting”. It’s like why gay characters are seen more in adult shows/games- they’re allowed to do whatever because it’s for adults. But, I proudly state I don’t like stuff like in-est and l/scon and it makes me genuinely uncomfortable. I’m not gonna attack an artist for drawing it, but if you’re posting that shit untagged and ruining my fun art scroll time I am hitting a block button.
@SorarikoMotone Жыл бұрын
@@ranransbakery8126 and that makes you.... ding ding - a proship. Because newsflash - proship doesnt equal liking those things, it just means you wont attack people over fictional pairs or drawings and are pro-tagging. Yes, I do agree proship ADULTS have tendency to be slightly more, well, h0rny - but a lot of it is because many of them are queer people coming from cultures where their queerness and sexuality are very much limited (like, sometimes to the extreme, i still remember how antis have DOXXED an iranian queer person because they liked something that "huwt teh fewings" of antis, when i was still on twitter. It was HORRIFYING that bunch of idiots would wish to a queer person to D*E just because they like certain fiction and pairs). But thats why i was always pro the idea that children shouldnt interact with adults in the fandoms beyond certain point, and instead seek out their own groups, but also - education, both about sexuality (in an appropriate way, obv) AND how fiction can or cannot affect people. For both children AND adults.
@nillawafez3979 Жыл бұрын
I absolutely agree
@lizziescott11 ай бұрын
It baffles me how Antis will scream and scream about how impressionable and easily mislead children are- And then actively attack children for being that way anyway. It's human nature to be drawn to the taboo as a child. As a kid, the more you're told NOT to do something, the more likely it is that you're going to do it. Children don't see themselves as needing rules- so they're natrually drawn to break them. In most people, you grow out of this as you learn and come to understand the world around you. It's natrual. It's normal. Almost every person alive at one point did something problematic as a child. Antis want to gave their cake and eat it to. They want to rely on the fact that children can be stupid, but they also want to attack and victimize children for being stupid. Ironically, that leads to more and more children trying to prove they can't possibly be children- and instead just directly putting themselves in danger to try to join the fight against whatever person their favorite youtuber is against. It's all toxic and stupid and I can for the life of my fathom how any of it makes sense to these people..
@ShowMeLoveFilms2 жыл бұрын
The biggest issue with shipping (as someone who been a part of multiple shippings across several fandoms) is that some people take shipping too seriously. To the point where they will fight others if they disagree. While yes some ships are disgusting (any with children, as you've said in the video), ones with grown adults are just for fun (in my opinion). Some see it as "yes, this is a true pairing and if you ship anything else it's wrong you're wrong". Like chill it's for fun and you're being a d*ck.
@assssaaasasass Жыл бұрын
And then canon shows that said ship will never happen and the shippers be like "canon don't exist, only my interpretation matters". 🙄
@evieshepherd7199 Жыл бұрын
Oh absolutely, the amount of times I've been attacked by one of the biggest and most problematic ships in a specific fandom for liking a ship that was literally said by the creator is mildly canon is horrific
@darkcrydotmrihavetoomanyst1440 Жыл бұрын
@@assssaaasasassthat or the creator gets harassed for making a ship cannon that the fans didn't agree with
@glitterboxx194 ай бұрын
@@assssaaasasass and then there's people that ship characters that clearly have a sibling dynamic or just two characters that have only interacted once
@assssaaasasass4 ай бұрын
@@glitterboxx19 "The ship is canon!" Their proof: moments of said characters standing near each other or just sharing screentime.
@outlawed86112 жыл бұрын
As a fanfiction writer, or a writer in general... I despise both sides. I've personally read the difference between someone shipping pedophilia and thinking it is okay and reading something that depicts it, and it's... well, they acknowledge that it is not okay and even put warnings. Because as someone who has suffered from CSA (from literally 4 different men... get over it, it happened and now it is over. Please no comments on how I survived, it's not the point, thank you.) I find that the way someone talks about it, and how they depict it are two different things. As a child, and writing from the child's POV, it's going to seem like all sparkles and rainbows. Here is my experience: As a smaller child, my mother married my "step dad" and he sexually abused me from 3 years old all the way up until I was 13. (the day he got arrested, but another man sexually assaulted and harrassed me until I was 16). He used to tell me, and manipulated me into thinking that he "loved me" and that everything is okay. When I see writing depicting the child believing what the predator says, it makes me feel slightly better about my own experience; however, when someone depicts that and then goes down to say that "omg shotacon and Lolicon is hot" and you see nothing but pedophilia shit on their page, it gives the impression that they find it a cool kink and invalidates your trauma. I think it's best to analyse the work logically to make sure that what is and is not being fantasized about is actually harmful. Ways that things are worded are a key factor in noticing when someone is being genuine about finding it hot or sexy... (speaking from someone who knows from experience. I've been manipulated my whole life). Now I will say that I HAVE written (and drawn) works where a character was aged down and they were in a relationship with an older man/woman. I do this because it reflects my experience, and by making it worse, it also helps me think that my experience can't be the worst. It helps me to feel like someone else is suffering more than I am, and while it seems selfish (because it kind of is) it's a way to help me, and I am sure others feel the same way. I do not post them because I'm afraid of getting harrassed, but I understand the need to have your voice heard. You feel like you're not allowed to speak out, and that's you're being just as oppressed as when you were being abused. I will say this; when it's deliberately there for pleasure and showing that children are being molested and it is "hot" or "sexy" then that is a big problem (but still completely on its own from real life where kids are PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY suffering). When someone silences my voice, and calls me a predator for relaying my own experiences, I feel like my experience has been invalidated. Every time I write, or draw, I'm reaching out for someone to notice and hear me without me actually having to say it. I do suffer from social anxiety and it is very hard to talk to people verbally so I communicate better by writing, and while it may seem like I'm probably flexing my "disorders" I hope it doesn't come across as such because I know someone will most likely take this the wrong way. Honestly and truthfully, pros and antis are so caught up in defending right and wrong and good and evil that it twists the truth. People that do this to cope are harmed, and children that are actually suffering are also harmed because they're making more of a fuss about online depictions of children sexually than the real thing. They get SO out of hand, that they end up harming kids and threatening and pressuring them. I am 17 years old of the time of this comment, and I turn 18 in April. I'm not even attracted to kids my own age or younger, they are quite honestly the most repulsive beings on the fucking planet (just like most childish adults, too). Just because I write or draw depictions of a minor being sexually abused does not mean that I think it's hot or sexy, in fact, it's just the opposite. In writing and drawing it, I hope that someone understands and I can re-connect with someone who does since I can't in the real world. It's not like I'm going to talk to someone and have a 1 on 1 with someone who doesn't because they will never understand, not to the same extent as someone who did experience it. (People make mistakes, and this might seem like a terrifying essay, but I felt the need to post this. I don't want comments on my trauma and how "I made it and survived" because that annoys the fuck out of me. What I do want is for someone to analyse what I said and either point out what I said that was wrong, or why they agree with some parts and not the other. I hope this bottom text also doesn't come off as rude. I also don't speak for every victim, I speak for myself and other who MIGHT feel the same way, as I cannot personally speak for anyone who feels different. I hope y'all have a nice day!)
@kaiyodei2 жыл бұрын
@@Sweetheart-gz5mw i was udner the impression people who do these ships, fics and fanart are "aww it's so cute, look at this couple" that is why people are angry at them. images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/22700000/So-Canon-ciel-x-sebastian-22763259-324-639.jpg that this is "not sweet" no matter how many times the shippers say so so it's wrong when the adult is grooming, but if the younger party is "hey, I like you, let's be lovers, I'm horny, please help me with that" then it's ok?
@flidethechemist2 жыл бұрын
Honestly, this covers all bases. I'm not well spoken enough to articulate my own opinion, but I feel this way a lot. I've written and drawn a lot of fucked up shit on AO3 and tumblr, but as long as you tag it right and put measures to prevent others from seeing... sensitive content, then that's fine! Also, fics/art only cross the line when it romanticizes and puts the "problematic" or "sensitive" content in a good light and something that they actually believe in. It honestly differs from situation to situation, so it's best to just practice a bit of critical thinking and to take into account the different factors involved. Like, I could write about non/con Harry x Voldemort with emphasis on the fact that it's hella underage, but still be a pretty decent person. Just because someone writes/draws about it doesn't mean they support it in real life. I repeat, tag your fics/art right and as long as you can distinguish reality from fiction, then you're totally in the clear. Policing what other people do on the internet and harassing them for it when it's undeserved is totally uncool. You're in charge of your own internet experience. If you don't like it, just move along and stick to what you're comfortable with. Fandom wars are really stupid and pointless, and a total waste of energy.
@eepmeep85502 жыл бұрын
I saw some awful stuff on AO3 over lockdown when I hit the bottom of my fandom's content. When I came across the proshipper drama I was kind of annoyed that people advocated for this stuff. I'd once seriously considered a career in policing or counselling to fight CSA, so it was a pretty important issue for me. I couldn't help but wonder what these creators would think if their work was found on a folder on a seized computer, mixed in with real CSA material. But also there's works like Der Vorleser, or Lolita, which feature minors in sexual relationships with adults and are considered high literature. And knowing a little about these works, this is valid. I have a storyline myself about a teenage girl who feels disconnected from her family, and is taken advantage of by someone she admires and I think the story would be missing something if I didn't depict sex in some way. I suppose there's a difference between something that is written as erotica, and something written to express other feelings or ideas. I think it takes some level of skill to make sure your work says what you want it to, but even then, people will misread it. I suppose you can only try your best to ensure it is not misread.
@bashartz Жыл бұрын
That is THE BEST WAY someone could EVER describe my opinions on it. If you're going to portray my trauma as smth sexy, while you're not actively SAing people, you are normalizing it, whether you realize it or not. Giving it a positive and good light only harms us, invalidates our experiences and silences us, especially with how critical society has become of it and how the legal system deals with it in most places (HELL IN MY COUNTRY THEY ARE ABOUT TO PASS A LAW THAT EVEN IF YOU WERE CHARGED WITH SA IN COURT OTHER PPL IN THE FIELD CAN LAY YOU OFF DEPENDING ON HOW "SEVERE" THEY BELIEVE THE CASE WAS. HOW IN THE ACTUAL HELL DOES THAT WORK I'M ABOUT TO *IMPLODE*-) Just don't harass ppl and do horrible illegal sht as a way to play the "knight in shining armor" for us. We can speak for ourselves thank you.
@bashartz Жыл бұрын
@@eepmeep8550 that's what I plan to do with my own work. I am considering to make an animated short to vent out my own experience, and it's going to be genuinely hard to depict in a non-erotic way - I have to think about what colors am I going to use, the shape language of the characters and environment, lineart style, if I want the animation to be smooth, rough, or a combo of both - it's honestly stressful, but I hope it'll be worth a shot. Considering to use Mamamax as inspo as well (someone who hunts predators online and makes cinematics abt them)
@Tjnovakart2 жыл бұрын
The discussion around vent art is really frustrating and sad to me. A little while back, I remember that Holly Brown’s instagram got taken down because one of her characters had visible HEALED self harm scars. As someone with healed scars myself, when stuff like that is censored it makes me feel like I have to hide my body for the rest of my life to avoid triggering people, even though I’m years past it. To me, healed scars are important to see because it shows that someone went through a hard time and managed to come out the other side. Personally, I draw the line at actually showing the act in progress. The lead up, aftermath, or even the censored act is fine, but a grotesque shot of actually cutting seems like it’s a bit much for social media. However, I do understand that actually seeing it is important for some people to grasp the severity of the situation, so I can see why artists might still post it and tag it as NSFW. I also think people are too quick to conflate “glorifying” an action with the artist just drawing an attractive character, regardless of the actual context. I think that if Dollieguts’ characters were more visually unappealing people wouldn’t have cared, but because their art style is very aesthetic it was automatically interpreted as glorification. To quote an ancient meme: “hot girls we have problems too, we’re just like you, except we’re hot”
@absoluteaffirmative2 жыл бұрын
I call myself an “anti” because I’m heavily against people shipping adults and children, siblings and siblings, and just family members w/family members As someone who’s gone thru bad experiences with older family members (I will not disclose, don’t ask) and seeing people positively “ship” adults and children or family members with other family members, i feel…gross Hence why I always try to avoid it but it gets hard to when that’s what almost everyone in a tag write or draw stuff like that Edit: If you’re confused: I simply hate and feel disgusted by people who ship all the things I’ve stated above in a positive way/say nothing is wrong with it, regardless of the characters being real or fictional My thought pattern has always been “why say you can ship anything when a lot of stuff, if normalized, can genuinely harm real people?” Edit 2: oh my how the turns table. My views have changed, this time to “don’t like? Just pass it by, curate your *own* experiences so you see what you *want* to see”. Fiction is just that-fiction. People are allowed to explore ideas or vent using fiction without actually harming anyone. Censorship screws *everyone* over.
@leisliemunoz46432 жыл бұрын
EXACTLY!!
@alpacafish12692 жыл бұрын
This!! I always get hate for talking about this.
@alpacafish12692 жыл бұрын
And on the last part you said true. If normalized to an extent, it can cause harm to real people.
@jr5332 жыл бұрын
People have to learn to separate fiction from reality. And you can choose to consume that kind of content or not.
@lextheboogeyman7633 Жыл бұрын
@@jr533 Fiction or not, you are still masturbating to kids. Regular fiction made for entertainment is different than masturbating to something.
@sillycookie2 жыл бұрын
Would you let someone who consumes lolicon babysit your child/younger sibling? Because I sure wouldn't. Like it or not, some people are going to make judgements on others from what media they consume. I'm not gonna pull over and do a full psychological evaluation on some person to decide. I'm not comfortable with any of that garbage and I'm not gonna pretend to be buddies with people who are. If they have the creative freedom to make stuff then others have the freedom to criticize. Although I'd never label myself as an Anti, cause that's corny and stupid.
@ipadkid97372 жыл бұрын
My exact thoughts. Oh and nice JoJo pfp.
@missliv.4042 жыл бұрын
I'm not an anti, I'm a normal person😔✌🏻
@sillycookie2 жыл бұрын
@@missliv.404 exactly
@michealballspen1s932 жыл бұрын
I'm friends with Gay Actor Michael Douglas
@madox40612 жыл бұрын
i have feelings about this. idk what kids are doing in fandom spaces these days, but five/six-ish years ago anti basically meant 'please dont interact with me because you creep me tf out' which i think was a perfectly understandable thing to feel about grown ass adults getting in arguments online with kids about how adults and young teens can totally date and have healthy relationship dynamics
@EuricyChan2 жыл бұрын
Stwabewwymilk is a bad example. Without the context of her other works, "Puppy Milk" seems like piece of vent art but in the context of her other fetish work, her vent art also has a pornographic bent. It's pretty glaring that this vent art isn't as theraputic as it seems.
@lotusdragonjbh2 жыл бұрын
To add to your point , that I agree with by the way: Strawberry actively encourage others to view her works as se*ualized, ans even brought up scenarios of underage characters being put into such situations. How she followed certain individuals with such... interests. How openly she discussed it and how she explicitly stated she wanted children to see her works. Among other things. It stopped feeling like venting and more rp in those instances. The message of pain turned into ... something else. I just wish a different example was used.
@Google_remote2 жыл бұрын
Stwabewwymilk needs to change the way she depicts her art. I get that she has suffered trauma, but don't draw it as it's okay. I've seen her art and I'm surprised that it doesn't express hatred towards csa. The fact that she thinks its okay means she needs to go to therapy. Im okay eith vent art, but when you make it you have to make a clear point on why its wrong.
@Google_remote2 жыл бұрын
@@lotusdragonjbh I did not know that and thats actually disgusting.
@Layla-tg2qe2 жыл бұрын
Agreed. I need not say more, but I fully agree with you.
@Phos672 жыл бұрын
It's theurapeutic art though.
@greenwren50722 жыл бұрын
I'm aro/ace and I still read smut and romance even though I don't actually feel either of those things. I do read "problematic" ships and media, but I was never influenced to marry a murderer.
@williamking331 Жыл бұрын
it's entertainment at heart, anyone who can't tell the difference is just plain stupid.
@sapphireblue5799 Жыл бұрын
Omg same I read it for the **drama** problematic ships are rife with it. But if it happens irl to friends or family I'm going to call that shit out. Let's keep problematic relationships just in our fiction.
@GaetorCreation2 жыл бұрын
im happy that you made the video especially as an ex-Anti-shipper and ex-Proshipper both communities in my opinion is diffrent sides of the same coing, both communities are filled to the brim with racist, xenophobes, LGBTphobes and groomers ive seen proshippers defend drawing porn of real children and ive seen anti-shippers harras minors who were pro-shippers by claiming to own those said minors CP when in reality any sane person would not label themself as any of them i don´t want poeple to be harrased especially for likkng a character or a ship that might be toxic while also not liking nor suporting lolicon but honestly the first part of you video was nice to hear as an abuse survivor alot of my trauma can be seen trough my art to the point were i put it in subconsciously and the sometimes late night fear of people who either cant or dont want to analyse art will see my art of glorification of things. i even remembered a drama i coveret vere people were mad an artis for depicting their maledaptive daydreaming and while the original point were lakc of trigger warnings and posetive depiction of a bad person the argumetn saldy evolved to "if you don´t depict your mental illness the way we dont like" good video enjoyed it alot
@ipadkid97372 жыл бұрын
Yea I gotta agree, I’ve heard of antis spread irl cp, and that’s REALLY HYPOCRITICAL. I thankfully met a group of antis that have common sense, they even called out these types of antis. (I believe they also stated that they don’t like labeling as antis.) I believe some people are just there for drama, and not actually helping out others.
@apolloandwarrior_32292 жыл бұрын
Honestly I believe all vent art is valid because it's expressing emotions. Even if it's pink and sparkly that person is still suffering. My latest piece was actually vent art, it's my persona with bandaid on her cheeks and super saturated and bright colors. It also clearly references the song "Mango from the wrist" by Takayan.
@fabianshedenhelm29862 жыл бұрын
I have a friend who's a proshipper who only does it to cope with what she went through, antishippers doxxed her to one of her traffickers and she got attacked at home. Some people even claimed she was a CP even though she's a minor.
@chiaki8382 жыл бұрын
@@ipadkid9737 out of topic but nice vox pfp 😭💕
@inkubator3202 жыл бұрын
@@fabianshedenhelm2986 sorry that happened to her she didn’t deserve that but also proshipping is not okay either. Deal with your traumas in other ways don’t affect others
@solsisght9302 жыл бұрын
Speaking of lolishotacon, I did remember watching a video where a csa victim does state that they use shotacon as a way to cope with their trauma. I'm not here to discuss whether it's good or bad, but I do think it's something that's worth bringing up in my opinion
@innocehnt752 жыл бұрын
can you link the video
@solsisght9302 жыл бұрын
@@innocehnt75 sadly the video has been privated, but the person who made the video is named "shota-kun" on youtube. Hope that's good enough
@upsidedownworld81842 жыл бұрын
I remember that video, and I can distinctly remember he explained in the comments that consuming shotacon and lolicon helps him process his own trauma and enjoying it feels like he's getting back control over something he didn't have control back then. Or something along those lines. Idk
@Vyansya2 жыл бұрын
No idea if this is related but some, if not often, in csa cases, the victims ended up doing the exact same thing their abuser did to other people. I think csa victims need to be guided how to heal their trauma correctly.
@upsidedownworld81842 жыл бұрын
@@Vyansya Unfortunately that is true because abuse is a cycle and the only way to stop it is to start healing the trauma, because hurt people, hurt people. However the process of healing is a tricky road filled with relapses and challenges, and there's never a one method fits all type of recovery. That's why it's important to work with a trusted professional who can help.
@babybunnigutz32972 жыл бұрын
I love seeing videos like this that have a more nuanced look into both sides I’m not sure what I’d be on the spectrum of pro ship or anti ship, but I personally feel it depends all on portrayal of subjects, for example if someone were to romanticize or glorify a pedophilic ship I’d consider that bad as this art is used to harm real children, via grooming and making victims of csa uncomfortable or even triggered by this, but displaying it in a way where the relationship is displayed as clearly toxic and not something to glorify id deem that ok at least with in limits. As someone who’s been groomed by adult pro-shippers and lolicons I think the idea that the artist shouldn’t be responsible for the art they are putting out there is strange but I also think that we shouldn’t harass or hurt any pro-shippers especially when some tend to be children who have been groomed into thinking that these types of relationships are ok. I feel like there just needs to be an actual discussion instead of anti or pro.
@gumiinx-ku66762 жыл бұрын
Hey, I mostly agree. Drawing sexially explicit content of clearly underage character is gross and morally bad. I just have one question. I don't think triggering memories of victims of grooming should be one of the main reasons. If it was, then you would need to apply same for art potraying violence and abuse.
@vixymix1012 жыл бұрын
Honestly I agree aside from the last bit, some proshippers definitely deserve to be attacked, such as lunasol who has doxxed minors.
@babybunnigutz32972 жыл бұрын
@@vixymix101 yikes yeah I wouldn’t stop someone from attacking her
@elleofmusic2 жыл бұрын
or maybe you actually look into what psychology experts have said on this subject, considering they've been studying it for decades. Anything can and has been used to groom children, so you can start with learning what grooming actually is instead of repeating vague talking points that make it out to be something it isn't. CSA survivors are commonly the ones who not only make and consume this media, but even the ones who don't like it will still defend it, bc what offends them most of all is ppl comparing their trauma to mere drawings and saying that the drawings are just as bad. If you bothered to pay attention to more than your little echo chamber of moral abusers, you'd realize that the actual discussion you want to have has been done to death for years, and always with the same conclusion: you're handing abusers an excuse to deflect blame from themselves and directly onto other survivors. Art doesn't make anyone decide to abuse someone else, they would do it anyway, with anything. And art also doesn't convince anyone that a sexual relationship with someone much older is ok. The person that's grooming them is the one convincing them.
@afunkylittleguy2 жыл бұрын
@@vixymix101 attacking someone will not benefit the situation. It will only make the other side seem like they are the monsters. Attacking anyone will not do anything positive.
@Jaxxette2 жыл бұрын
I'm an artist in my late 20's. It's genuinely interesting to see how the art community has evolved with social media, and how much policing there is over the morality of eachother's works. It's not that I feel the issues are somehow below me to engage with, because the ideas in this video are important points of consideration. Rather, it's how fervently people argue about it all that I find difficult to grasp. To be so genuinely agitated by a fictional pairing is a bit of an alien concept. One final thought that a lot of younger members of the art community don't fully realize, is that a lot of the anime characters that some of us adults idolize and draw ship art/pairings of or whatever, are ones that existed when we were minors too. Those characters have remained the same as we've moved through time and our bodies have aged, but our memories of those characters and the ways we engaged with them artistically has also remained more or less the same. Are we then supposed to just stop creating the content we used to and give up everything that helped us find ourselves in the past? I recognize that as adults, we have a certain responsibility to be mindful of the impact our work has. But the line isn't quite as black and white as you'd think. I'm not really arguing one way or the other, I just think it's a point of consideration to keep in mind when we crusade for or against certain works in the name of minors.
@BlackReshiram2 жыл бұрын
Anti/Pro-shipper: broke Ship-critical: woke
@BlackReshiram Жыл бұрын
@Mondlichts the only thing these have in common is the word "critical"
@a-garden-of-worlds Жыл бұрын
Hey actually I kinda un-ironicaly really like this term
@aries_the_red8000Ай бұрын
what is ship-critical?
@mistysilence2 Жыл бұрын
just to add some increased complexity to the conversation, i feel like a lot of people forget to remember that minors are also occasionally the ones creating problematic art of minors. for example, if a 16 year old has a crush on their teacher irl, they might fantasize about dating them or creating some manner of art exploring that fantasy in a safe way, or look for ships that mimic that dynamic, despite never actually wanting to participate in such irl. teacher/student is a pretty common fantasy, and problematic content isn’t ONLY made by adults. minors themselves are creating this stuff too, they aren’t twiddling their thumbs and waiting respectfully until 18 to suddenly go looking for or participating in weird ships. almost every denizen of the internet has a story of ‘yea i lied about being over 18 to get into this website when i was 15’ or ‘lol yea i remember shipping (problematic ship) as a kid’. it feels weird that everyone seems to skip over minors exploring bad dynamics in a safe manner for fun, almost taking away any agency they do have, for the sake of going ‘this is entirely an adult problem and minors are just being tossed around without a say’.
@DemonCat Жыл бұрын
I remember that as a 15 or 16 yo I drew a character of mine in a "shame your character" meme where he was crying and clearly distraught about something...A grown ass adult took issue with it and decided to berate me and call me an abuser (mind you, I was going through very real abuse until the age of 18/19) and disgusting and how I have 'forced' them to see it...They weren't following me. I had several of my older friends (18+ friends, some of these I still talk to to this day and consider really close friends of mine with a really healthy relationship) literally step in to tell them they were tripping absolute balls. Finding the comments again about a year or 2 ago still bogled my brain as a now 23 yo So many adults will be so quick to title everything that displays any form of sadness or trauma as all bad, regardless of who is making it, and in a lot of cases they are blowing things so out of proportion that one might forget a block button exists
@itspienoon78832 жыл бұрын
Honestly, fandom drama in of itself is really stupid. People have this weird obsessed with correcting controversial and immoral behaviour on the internet when it's just as simple as as block and report.
@serenasongbird2 жыл бұрын
Exactly!! Don’t like it? Just block n report lol
@njrakri191510 ай бұрын
Report it to who?
@vannillaAJofficial2045 ай бұрын
@@njrakri1915 exactly. just scroll away ffs.
@music_horror2 жыл бұрын
for the bit about enjoying media simply because its media could also go for horror fans. I do not want to see people actually get hurt, but i enjoy horror because the characters are insanely stupid and depending on the movie of it has practical effects i may enjoy too, also depending on the type of person the director is
@benisgay93152 жыл бұрын
my take is that we're kinda thinking about this wrong. instead of generalizing all of these things (apart from l*li/sh*tacon), we should be judging these things on a case by case basis because all of these situations are very different and complicated. It all depends on the characters, the artist, the artist's intentions and what the media itself depicts
@BritishRat5732 жыл бұрын
why is loli cencored?
@benisgay93152 жыл бұрын
@@BritishRat573 I don't like typing it out ;-;
@BritishRat5732 жыл бұрын
@@benisgay9315 oooh, ok! that wasn't ment to hate or anything just wanna be clear lol-
@deadend35202 жыл бұрын
The simplifications of complex questions is something the Internett has perfected. However i don't think the lines can be drawn here. I have seen multiple stories and media that have takled sensitive subjekts with care, only for the fanbase to overlook and romanticise anyway. I hav also seen friends talk happely about stories that made them feel seen, for the same heavy subjects. So i dont think censorship over artist is the solution. Though the sexual depicting of minors is something i have a strong personal dislike for. As wel as sexual assault shown as romantic or as a joke. I also think the rules should be different when we talt about shipping of real people. While fictional characters are one thing, i find people have a tendency to treat real public figures whit the same dismissal. Im not shure where the line is. And in all honesty, i think the problem is much greater then just unethical art. However what it is and where the problem comes from i don't know.
@Hatsunemigulover2 жыл бұрын
agree
@TheSensationalMr.Science2 жыл бұрын
something to note with vent art and the arguments to censor or not, are that it is based on a long standing philosophical debate on whether the society should cater to the individual or to the group and who is responsible for who's actions and how much. with the side for allowing the vent art to exist seemingly being very much on the side of saying the artist is responsible for their own actions and not others; while the ones supporting the censorship of 'problematic art' (art *they* have a problem with) are usually from the standpoint that the collective is more important than the individual and that the individual should censor their actions to be less problematic for the collective. the argument of Subjects(Group Responsibility) and Citizens(Individual Responsibility) or Authoritarians and Republicans (nation of law, not the political party) in a nutshell. art is a tool... how people use it defines more whether its good or bad... just like a hammer can be used to bash in a nail... or a skull; propaganda forces a position, story questions and challenges one... as you can see, two sides, same coin. I am personally on the side of the individuals should be responsible for their own actions only and should not be censored side, cause I have seen where the censorship train goes in history, to gulags and concentration camps.... also to copyright suits and actual removal of rights against small creators who can't fight back (PayPal). also if we censored every case of problematic behavior there would be no justice... just sweepings under the rug. so maybe we shouldn't censor, but prosecute the offender. I also believe if the 'offending material' doesn't deprive people of Life, Liberty or the Pursuit of Happiness (The American Way)... legally it should not be removed... but morally is a different question even though the law has had to deal with morality in practice, not theory, there have been people who wish to put their own livelihood alone into law and we rightfully call them, tyrants. Hope you have a great day & Safe Travels!
@yukiharu_thespaceturtle2 жыл бұрын
As someone who loves digging through "problematic"/moral dubious fandom contents, thanks for the video, it's nicely made and thought provoking. It came out quite a while ago, but I still want to share my thoughts on this topic so here goes nothing. In my opinion, internet/fandom space can't and will never be "safe spaces", so while many themes portrayed in these contents are offsetting to some, I don't think there's much to be done about it. No one has the responsibility to modulate their art in order to create a "safer" internet environment, they're just experimenting with controversial themes using fictional characters/settings. Art can affect reality, but only to an extend which is how much we let it affect us. A piece of art, as shitty and fucked up as it can get, is still just a piece of art. And it's better to leave it that way. Disturbing art has existed for who knows how many years, it will never make the world a better place but there's no proof that it has worsened the world either. For the "minors can see these contents, therefore they're harmful to minors" point, I want to know why kids participating in unsafe fandom spaces is a normal thing, especially when artists who create this kind of content often leave warnings and avoid any interaction with them. They're given the chance to protect themselves but choose to take a look at explicit contents anyway, then start harassing the creators for making something they don't enjoy. Hate mails that some artists I know have received are even worse than the "problematic" art they create. Strangers on the internet don't have a duty to protect your innocent, righteous moralities, it's up to you to protect yourself. To sum up, media exists as a mean for people to experiment with themes/things they'll never attempt in real life. Trying to keep everything "clean" and abusing people who have the guilty pleasure of enjoying moral dubious contents is just pointless.
@moonshineaudios5740 Жыл бұрын
Imho, artists should add disclaimers and warnings on every pro-ship post, that it’s rooted in fiction and not representative of any real life situations. If anyone tries to replicate this irl, they are a predator and should be reported to the police.” That’s what I’ll do anyways.
@weirdnerdygoat11 ай бұрын
THIS
@carelessdreamer2 жыл бұрын
I consider myself more on the pro side due to my views on censorship and because there are so many toxic “antis” I’ve seen. I go to AO3 a lot, and it has some seriously weird works. However, the tagging system implemented allows you to easily avoid anything with elements of noncon, inc3st, etc. Some people will literally go through problematic tags within their fandom just to harass authors, and that’s not okay. They weren’t forcing you to see that and warned you ahead of time about what would be in there. Seeking out something problematic and complaining when you find it makes you the toxic one.
@red04212 жыл бұрын
Same! I love AO3 because of, not only its huge collection of fandoms and work, but mostly because of its filter system! I wish more sites had a system like it where you can pick pairings you don't want to see and pairings you do, block works tagged with things you don't want to see and it also allows authors a lot more freedom with their tags than most sites which can be both helpful and hilarious like "No beta, we die like men" just amuses me. It also let's you differentiate what kind of relationship between characters you're looking for, like idk, "Sherlock Holmes & John Watson" is different from the definitively romantic "Sherlock Holmes/John Watson" which I think is neat! I personally read some fanfics in the Blue Exorcist fandom and love that I can block the uh, "keeping it in the family" works from view to read what I actually want (which is mostly time travel stuff). I honestly think AO3 has the best filter and tag system out of all the sites I know.
@carelessdreamer2 жыл бұрын
@@red0421 Exactly! The system on AO3 is applied perfectly for a site based entirely around archiving work. And, as you mentioned, some of the tags people come up with are beautiful. Like “graphic descriptions of trail mix.” What?
@red04212 жыл бұрын
@@carelessdreamer ikr? 🤣 Sometimes it's the tags rather than the description that make me read a story because they are just comedy _gold_ .
@dirkstriderpistolwhipper2 жыл бұрын
The definition of being Pro-ship is supporting arts of incest, pedophilia, abuse, etc. It's one thing to be okay with shipping normal and okay things, but people who say they're pro-ship mean that they support the shipping of disgusting things.
@carelessdreamer2 жыл бұрын
@@dirkstriderpistolwhipper This is the kind of thing I’m talking about. I said I was more towards the pro side, not that I am fully pro-ship. Also, support is a very vague word to use. What do you mean by support? I consider support to be endorsing and engaging in something, which I don’t do with problematic ships. I just think total censorship is not the correct path.
@beavermustang50892 жыл бұрын
Alot of times, In toxic ships. Fans are aware they are toxic, That's why in many times, Shippers who ship these toxic ships and rewrite them and make a AU where they are more healthy. (It's fiction so you could change whatever you want about it, In Fanfiction and Fanart.) For example, In the fandom that I am, I ship a toxic ship called Soukoku, They two dudes who are ex partners, (Not romantically tho, There were mafia partners.) They're both the same age. They both hate each other, but they also care for Each other and have a mutual understanding. It wouldn't let the other die. It's a very complex relationship filled with lots of Complex feelings. But there are some fruity moments in the show, That made me ship them, Example, Dazai shoving Chuuya down his crotch. Anyways, Moving on. They would be very Toxic couple wise, Cuz Dazai has trust issues, and he usually get what he wants through manipulation. So if there were together he would just manipulate him and usually toy around and Chuuya gets pissed off by that fact. Also, these two grew up in the mafia, and the boss didn't give two shits about their mental health. moving Shippers, Tend to Change some aspects about them in their fanfic. Shipping is fun (atleast for me,) when Your making Content for ship. Many people tend to Take out the manipulative aspects of it. Because Dazai has some mental issues, (he is suicidal and depressed.) So some fanfic writers, Write him where he hits his lowest and is forced to learn to trust people (chuuya) rather than manipulate. (Bandage soul is a example of the few fanfics do that.) It's okay to ship Toxic Ships, Some people don't mind exploring the Dark side of a Toxic relationship And many people would take those toxic ships, And rewrite and Twist some things about the characters. (Usually Taking out the toxic aspects about it, That's why Fanfiction and AUs Exist) Another Toxic ship that do this, Is The Killing and stalking ship, I personally don't ship them. But some ppl do and they rewrite and make Aus where the whole stockholm syndrome and abuse doesn't happen. I hate when people be like "That's Out of character" Like Hunny it's a fanfiction, an Au. Fanfic writers are not remaking a new accurate episodes or chapter they're just making "What IFs." fanfic writers aren't getting paid to write fanfics on Ao3. It just something they like at the end of the day, it's just fiction at the end of the day. And sometimes, People write it as toxic as it is, To explore the dark side. It's usually painted in Dark Light. (Like the read, are "Her Understanding" Which is a fanfiction of the ship i like, It's very Sexual and dark, It does have P*dophilia in it, But it's painted in negative light (As should be) and does have a Negative affect on the character on the story.) But, The fanfiction/ Anime that advocate P*dophilia, and trying to make it "Cute" or in a "Positive light". Is just "No" Their is this one Anime that I watched around 9 or 10 years old. It was about a kindergartener falling in love with her Teacher, And there was scene were they kissed. (And God I really wish I had bleach rn.) Now, Why was I exposed to something like that so young? My parents never supervised me on what I watching. Many parents don't wait until their child is in a responsible age to take care of a phone, tablet, or laptop. By their own, and just give it to them, with no kids mode or restrictions and supervision, Needless to say kids are going to be exposed to dark content because of that. My little sister had her first phone/tablet, when she was 5 years old, One year later she was exposed to p*rnhub, Luckily my parents found out and had her phone taken away and she got whipped with the belt. Which i found to be bit unfair, Because she is only 6 years old and she doesn't know those things. (Also she landed on those sites because a 5th grader and 3rd grader told her about the site) So it wasn't fault. Honestly, I think my mom should've downloaded a kids mode or waited till she was older to get a phone. ( I mean i'm the oldest child, and I didn't get a phone until 8th grade.) But ya know haitian parents. Kids don't know crap, It's the parents responsibility to supervise their watching, who thetexting, and what they are doing. there are phone companies that allows to see what your child is doing on the internet . and there are phones and tablets that has kids mode. Also, the Assumptions that just because you ship means you want to be in one yourself is dumb, I'm 16 and just because I ship a suicidal manipulative maniac with angry short man, does not mean i want a suicidal manipulative maniac as my bf.
@louism21802 жыл бұрын
Most antis believe the shipping part tends to romanticise these relationships/ portray in a good light. I don't think most of us are against dark fiction. I think portraying these relationships in a bad light gives room to criticise them and talk about these topics. What proshippers tend to do is portray these relationships as good because well.. that's shipping.
@kaiyodei2 жыл бұрын
I was under the impression it was "so cute" "so hot" "true love"
@RubenDuenas1 Жыл бұрын
That may be shipping but to use a problematic ship as portrayed in a good light SHOULDNT be shipping
@louism2180 Жыл бұрын
@@RubenDuenas1 is that not what I said 😅?
@RubenDuenas1 Жыл бұрын
@@louism2180 idk anymore dud. No braincells 2day srry
@louism2180 Жыл бұрын
@aliien_blues all good, I think we share the same opinion. I may have written my original comment a little confusingly looking back.
@atinybard65942 жыл бұрын
It doesn't matter how bad the topic, you cannot censor art period. Art can be uncomfortable. You have the freedom to dislike an artist for what they produce, but artist need to be free to create what they want to create. If some of that is ugly, that's because humans are ugly.
@leonardo92592 жыл бұрын
Yep, you can avoid or prevent art from getting spread all over, but art should never be prevented from being made. Imo
@lavose87092 жыл бұрын
This doesn't stop it from being criticized. Especially when bigotry is involved.
@sentientskittle88072 жыл бұрын
@@lavose8709 There's a big difference between "criticizing" and "sending innocent people death threats and trying to dig up their job information to get them fired", though.
@lavose87092 жыл бұрын
@@sentientskittle8807 oh of course! Death threats are never okay! I noticed that some people seem to think that someone criticizing their art is the same as censorship.
@sentientskittle88072 жыл бұрын
@@lavose8709 Amen, I agree with that 🙏
@ashisokay2 жыл бұрын
//Honestly I can't say I'm pro on anti; I've been on both sides before and (while I find Antis to be more aggressive as I had some send me death threats back when I was like.. fourteen? Fifteen?? Plus a call out post for saying you couldn't gatekeep ships and that they were pairing something just as bad in the end.) I can understand both sides. //Antis were what made Undertales scary to me; And pros made me very uncomfortable with saying I liked certain characters from shows I will not name; Both sides cause damage and will opt to ignore it to yell at the other side. It's hella creepy.
@peepeenut46782 жыл бұрын
Antis are mainly sjws, from my experience. Im neutral too, dont particularly care either way. At least its not real kids
@simpingfor2d982 жыл бұрын
I feel you, as someone who also has been in both sides, I just decided to not label myself anything. and being an artist, I just tag my profile with my personal understanding ( ships and tags of it is or not nsfw). I'm in the favor of artistic liberty and that everyone can draw and talk about everything in any way, but that doesn't mean i have to like it or even agree. For me, as long the supposed toxic contant stays in fiction go ahead, have fun. But please, please understand the difference of fiction and reality.
@ashisokay2 жыл бұрын
// @@simpingfor2d98 Honestly I can understand why people point out the many times fiction has effected reality; Much like I agree with many that it shouldn't. I feel like there should be more stories delving into why something is bad- And that is directed at all forms of media at this point. //Too many people on both sides are willing to be cruel in ways I can't understand- Despite being an adult now- Like what purpose does it do to dox a bunch of kids\adults over shipping BS? //Also an artist though and one that likes indulging in things that make me feel safe; Had one of my major past comfort ships lead people to vague death threats that made something as cutesy as the Sonic a nightmare to touch because interacting with some of the content I liked at the time would cause people to think I supported P3d0 and 1nc3st content when neither statement was actually correct. //But then there are people who do actively pair an adult and minor is a way that romanticizes it in a way that I can see how it would affect young people negatively- Like if they end the story with how in love the two are I'm going to be sus of that person. Like if someone ships Play Time and Baldi- Something about it doesn't feel right. //That being said stories that delve into that are not always bad I think; Sorry if this is a bit of a rambled mess.
@ashisokay2 жыл бұрын
//@BlueIsABitConfused Too much fighting and attacking\doxing kids for ""LOL CRRINGGEEE OOCCSSSS!!! XDXDXD""; T'was a hell hole.
@kaiyodei2 жыл бұрын
@@simpingfor2d98 untill is is racism and slavery and saying "these people are afraid of the Kobolds like how people think people with ASPD are dangerous " right?
@StarStoneWolf2 жыл бұрын
Back in highschool I would sometimes draw Por- you know what I'm talking of, I don't wanna spell it all out. I never have and never will post them online though... The only time I have shared my uh, small hobby lol. Was when a good friend of mine asked me to draw them Yuri and Victor doing it. I just slided the drawing with no signature to her at school and said, "You don't know where this came from. If anyone asks, you just found it tucked between books in the Library." We also shipped two of our ocs out of our army of ocs together. And of course drew "stuff" of them as well. And I gotta say, oddly enough nothing bonds friends closer together, then having two of their characters destroying beds like they hate sleep. Anyway my point is... It just boggles my mind that people who have drawn waaaay worse things than me or my bud, are okay posting stuff like that online... Just with me even thinking of posting fanfiction of characters passionately snogging makes me feel like I'm ripping my clothes off in public going, "Look at me! Look! I have a freckle on my lower back!" Like where do they even find the covendence? I'm both equally impressed and scared of those people.
@SorarikoMotone Жыл бұрын
anonimity sure is helping quite a bit
@meoby2 жыл бұрын
Here's my beliefs shipping anyone is fine as long as they aren't real people. Lolicon is gross no matter what. Vent art is fine, any art glorifying a topic around a subject in vent art is not vent art and is not ok.
@rugbytheiii17822 жыл бұрын
Couldn’t have said it better myself 👍
@lucillealdana16552 жыл бұрын
YES
@Bizzroa2 жыл бұрын
I have seen them on R rated website and that is the most uncomfortable thing you can watch or find it just soo wrong
@arte43912 жыл бұрын
I think as long both parties are ok I think its fine shipping
@coralmaru53 Жыл бұрын
Just wanted to add that most antis have actually gone through S*xual Abuse harassment etc that’s why most are very defensive about it, it’s reasonably real gross to see someone romantize your trauma and others.
@assssaaasasass Жыл бұрын
I've seen some proshipers dismissing their traumas because "it's fiction" and that they were pretending to have a trauma to act like they have some right on the argument. While I'm not on any pro/anti side, and death threats are messed up and wrong, but dismissing other people's traumas because it doesn't align with your agenda is equally bad.
@bashartz Жыл бұрын
@@assssaaasasass I've had other CSA's dismiss my trauma by saying that they have it too and that I'm a loser for thinking it's messed up and that it makes me uncomfortable, and calling me a coward for blocking them and like... My brother in christ move on, all I'm gonna do is troll you if u keep at it xD I used to be an extreme anti (never identified nor will ever identify as such but I was that extreme abt it because of what I have been thru) but now I'm just Rlly uncomfy by sexualization of minors in media period, especially with how normalized it has become in western media slowly as time went on (I assume it has taken influence by eastern media which is... Not good ngl)
@assssaaasasass Жыл бұрын
@@bashartz I don't even know, honestly I've only seen before on anime but I think that fandom/shipping culture made it worse because on any media there's the need of a ship for some reason, it reminds me as response on the encanto fandom where people were like "stop shipping the family members!" and the answer was "then who we gonna ship them with?" and I was like "how about no one? It's a movie about family, you don't need to put romance or a couple on everything you see" 🤦♀️.
@satanslittleprince Жыл бұрын
@@assssaaasasass realest
@coralmaru5311 ай бұрын
@@OHGAS-rt5uc fictional content can still effect people in the real life, I don’t care if Proshippers do it in their private time but when they do it in public they not only make it so other people can thiink that’s okay and might end up going down a bad rabbit hole but they also can cause people to relapse.
@everybodysfavouriteboar2 жыл бұрын
Personally, I think that art should be judged upon intention rather than an interpretation. For example my art could be interpreted as glorifying violence, which it isn't, the intention behind my art is usually leftist and carries my hate behind the government, patriarchy, homophobia,ect.And my determination to get equality. *Just because it caters to a particular audience does not mean it was ment for that audience.*
@bashartz Жыл бұрын
That's how I usually judge people's works. If your clear intent is to make fun of/glorify/make erotic depictions of said graphic and triggering topic for your own personal pleasure, I am genuinely going to raise a few brows and make sure to back tf away.
@thesundaycult79942 жыл бұрын
The whole pro/anti ship, loli and shota shit, etc is just arguing in circles. I can just the “they’re not real” or “they look and behave like a child/ they’re related” as a counter. It often just arguing with emotions, and always ends with someone accusing the other of being a pedo or being unable to separate fiction from reality. Everyone is so dead set on their own view point, thinking that they’re in the right and thinking that the other party is crazy. Having a proper discussion is borderline impossible.
@joshs71602 жыл бұрын
Of course it's impossible, antis can't view anything related to the subject with a rational/logical viewpoint, their arguments are nothing more than an appeal to morality.
@unlikeable.1554 Жыл бұрын
Being a guy who used to go around the internet, people would say "It's not real so it's not illegal, so we can draw, and like it." That's where it starts, people think it's right to like fictional childern and should be done... People go so deep into the gutters of their minds they can't leave it and go onto the sidewalks of reality.
@dragonicbladex7574 Жыл бұрын
@@unlikeable.1554 I just wonder why that doesn't happen with some other things that should fester questionable thoughts, that thought has been confusing me as of late, there are kinks about things illegal and immoral in real life that don't seem to have the same effect as far as I'm aware? I don't get it
@unlikeable.1554 Жыл бұрын
@@dragonicbladex7574 As said before, people don't get out of the gutters, makes them like stuff cause their mind come twisted somehow fiction drives them to reality, they have kinks cause of childhood shit I have to look into it because the human mind can work in so many ways..
@MarineSelena Жыл бұрын
@@unlikeable.1554Then why is such a violent game like GTA ok? You are literally mass-murdering innocent people and committing countless crimes for fun? are you just deluding your nasty subconscious murder tendencies?
@AJGecko182 жыл бұрын
Just gonna say this: It’s not illegal to draw abuse It is illegal to draw children in sexual situations If someone draws that to cope, I feel bad for what they went through, but they should be careful about drawing children in a sexual manner. Draw it in private at least, because the creation and distribution of that kind of art is illegal “Images of child pornography are not protected under First Amendment rights, and are illegal contraband under federal law. Section 2256 of Title 18, United States Code, defines child pornography as any visual depiction of sexually explicit conduct involving a minor (someone under 18 years of age). *Visual depictions include photographs, videos, digital or computer generated images indistinguishable from an actual minor, and images created, adapted, or modified, but appear to depict an identifiable, actual minor.* Undeveloped film, undeveloped videotape, and electronically stored data that can be converted into a visual image of child pornography are also deemed illegal visual depictions under federal law. Notably, the legal definition of sexually explicit conduct does not require that an image depict a child engaging in sexual activity. A picture of a naked child may constitute illegal child pornography if it is sufficiently sexually suggestive. Additionally, the age of consent for sexual activity in a given state is irrelevant; any depiction of a minor under 18 years of age engaging in sexually explicit conduct is illegal. Federal law prohibits the production, distribution, reception, and possession of an image of child pornography using or affecting any means or facility of interstate or foreign commerce (See 18 U.S.C. § 2251; 18 U.S.C. § 2252; 18 U.S.C. § 2252A). Specifically, Section 2251 makes it illegal to persuade, induce, entice, or coerce a minor to engage in sexually explicit conduct for purposes of producing visual depictions of that conduct. Any individual who attempts or conspires to commit a child pornography offense is also subject to prosecution under federal law.” justice.gov
@Troublethecat2 жыл бұрын
Lolicon is not illegal, at least not in America or Japan. Obscenity laws does not make it illegal.
@Aardvarky_2 жыл бұрын
@@Troublethecat stfu no one asked u weirdo
@elleofmusic2 жыл бұрын
only if they are REAL children. Fictional characters are NOT real and cannot be hurt. Stop shaming survivors for using an extremely effective technique to heal from trauma. And no, they don't have to keep it private just bc you find it disturbing. By telling survivors to prioritize your personal comfort over them harmlessly expressing themselves and participating in a safe community, you are telling them and every survivor that they don't matter as much as you do, that their mental and emotional health should suffer just because you can't tell the difference between fiction and reality. And worst of all, you're heavily implying that depictions of fictional characters who exist only as pixels on a screen can ever be compared to the trauma suffered by real children who have to live with those memories and that pain for the rest of their lives. Listen to psychology experts and learn how to keep scrolling past things you don't want to see.
@secretlyalizzard70302 жыл бұрын
@@Troublethecat Lolita/shota porn is illegal in the US. Please look up the actual child protection laws
@secretlyalizzard70302 жыл бұрын
@@elleofmusic Our issue isn't with those using it for coping, it's when people are using it to romantisize or find it hot. Such as fictional minors in horrid situations, That should NOT be viewed as arousing or hot - A literal rape survivor. Now yes, you should actually censor it via tags or on insta, a NSFW slide
@ik84582 жыл бұрын
Not video related but I love how the censorship is Dolores's little "hm"
@ExpiredJello2 жыл бұрын
//tw grooming one thing that I find interesting is that there used to be an artist in a community i used to be in who posted a lot of proship/loli/shotacon type things a long time ago and real groomers would use their comics to numb kids to such content and, with that, make those kids think it's ok to do those sorts of things. It's not JUST about getting those bad people excited about those things (though that in itself if horrid), it's about the fact that those things can be weaponized against actual children and make them think that what those creepy people are doing is ok. Thats what people who make art ACTUALLY glorifying those situations don't understand. I feel that I must add that I wholeheartedly disagree proshippers but i dont claim the anti label because i disagree with harassment and other things antis say or do. However, I find a lot of proshippers having the same point of view as lolicon/shotacons, who genuinely say and draw vile things, glorifying them. I find myself with a similar opinion on proship vs anti as the video, that both sides are too extreme with one harassing the other, and the other covering their ears and calling anyone who disagrees a child or stupid. Though i will admit i have a lower opinion of people under the proship label because of the horrendous things i've seen come from that type of art, and how it affects actual children.
@babyelijahwood75422 жыл бұрын
same here. in fandom spaces, adults would use the comics to groom actual minors into thinking pedophilia was normal and ok. in my mind, i just couldn't comprehend an artist being okay with that and continuing making art like that UNLESS their comics explicitly state how bad it is. it's disgusting. that being said, i don't think i'm apart of the whole anti/pro thing. i have my opinions and i will voice them but i don't harass people, i just block them and tell other people about them if they share the same opinion as me.
@uanime12 жыл бұрын
@Kiwi Kwib "one thing that I find interesting is that there used to be an artist in a community i used to be in who posted a lot of proship/loli/shotacon type things a long time ago and real groomers would use their comics to numb kids to such content and, with that, make those kids think it's ok to do those sorts of things." Every time I hear this argument I think 'gee why has no one ever been able to convince children to clean their room using the same method'. I mean it's almost as if this doesn't work. "It's not JUST about getting those bad people excited about those things (though that in itself if horrid), it's about the fact that those things can be weaponized against actual children and make them think that what those creepy people are doing is ok." Because as we all know children are idiots who will believe that sex with adults is okay from seeing an image about it; even though you can't convince them not to draw on the walls, no matter how many comics you show them. Almost like this doesn't work.
@Google_remote2 жыл бұрын
@@uanime1 What?
@babyelijahwood75422 жыл бұрын
@@uanime1 it's less about seeing one singular image and more so seeing hundreds of images over a course of months/possibly years supplied by an adult that initially posed as a friend.
@uanime12 жыл бұрын
@@babyelijahwood7542 "it's less about seeing one singular image and more so seeing hundreds of images over a course of months/possibly years supplied by an adult that initially posed as a friend." Again why does this never work with anything else?
@majourvelencianna58102 жыл бұрын
I love the respectful take but it is just so annoying when people don't follow DLDR i.e. Dont Like Don't Read and children/teens are going out of their way to invade NSFW and 18+ spaces throwing out accusations on people that are minding their own business but when called out for them personally going out of their way to search up 'problematic' content they start justifying themselves and calling everyone trying to talk to them as gr0omers and p3dophiles.
@howtodrinkwaterin5simplesteps Жыл бұрын
Damn
@ivanprime932 жыл бұрын
Personally I think all art can be created and exist, with that said all art can be criticized and judged by individuals. I am not of fan of all kinds of art, but I won't forbid it from existing just because I don't like it or I'm oppose to it. I will say when I don't or do like something just as much as I can say that I only like a part of an art but not the whole piece. Art is freedom and we should respect that but don't be surprised if not everyone likes it or approves it, so if you are okay with posting/showing your art then prepare for what people want to say about it.
@UnagioLucio2 жыл бұрын
I'm with you on this. I spent years wading through the shipping discourse, trying to make sense of it, trying to find a side I could agree with. All it did was damage my mental health. I've seen way too many self-described proshippers defending everything including NSFW drawings/fiction of actual children, and I've seen way too many self-described antis who proudly declare that anyone who likes any remotely problematic ship should off themselves. I'm so tired.
@MillyThe_Rat5 ай бұрын
Oh to understand the difference between dark and problematic topics being portrayed in media, and those topics being ROMANTIZED in media. Because YEs, dark topics are great to write, draw and consume, but when the creator (and viewers) deliberatly portray it as something good (in meta, not inside the fictional universe but as the art's message) it is simply bad and genually problematic
@sanriobakery36622 жыл бұрын
There is something about vent art to its called “traumacore” where it shows basically like vent art but it shows characters from kids shows the biggest example is Sanrio and the toxic thing about that is people who post these put sanrio tags or sanrio characters names as tags and some child might of looked up any of those and possibly has seen trauma core art and possibly would be traumatized and most people reply this as “You could block traumacore” but still the art can be found with those tags
@ballpython96922 жыл бұрын
I don’t have a problem with vent art, my problem is when people use vent art to glorify certain situations that shouldn’t be even drawn.
@yourdad32752 жыл бұрын
pro and anti are like warning labels for toxic behaviour in my experience, anti in particular. people really just… *think* too much. if it looks illegal, report it. if you’re posting sensitive content, tag accordingly. there’s never any need to be abusive.
@chenniball Жыл бұрын
My honest opinion: as a fan of works that deal with sensitive and controversial themes, I don't think that the problem is fiction, but the people behind it and those who receive it. You can like toxic and criminal characters, as long as you can take a critical view of them and separate fiction from real life. There are people who are going to have their limits of what they can tolerate in the fictional universe, and that's totally fine too. What is really wrong is to dehumanize others for things that do not even affect their daily lives and drag children into this type of thing, since there is no way for them to discern these issues so well. For me, people should stop taking issues like this so hard and worry more about what happens in the real world.
@sunstar45592 жыл бұрын
As someone who used to be pro and anti, I can agree with you that if you give yourself these labels, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot. It shows you aren't willing to talk. Even though I don't agree with pro shippers, I can't agree with how anti- shippers handle them either. If anything, I'm anti-harassment. You can't tell people what to draw. It's the internet. All you can do is unfollow/unwatch someone, report their posts, and block them. That way you won't see their content without getting into a big fight with them. Heck even some sites allow you to block tags! Antis should just use the resources that are available to them.
@SorarikoMotone Жыл бұрын
i am ready to talk and i do name myself one of these things - because pro-ship is anti-harassment and pro-tagging the works appropriately, at the very base of it all. Its just anti's never liste, even if you give them ACTUAL advice
@sunstar4559 Жыл бұрын
@@SorarikoMotone I would agree with you to a certain degree. Personally, I try to stay in my own lane unless someone does something really egregious.
@trianglepaw2 жыл бұрын
Idk, I feel like we can let people do what they want in their own personal spaces as long as it isn’t hurting outside parties. They aren’t doing anything illegal. We don’t have to support people who draw things that make us uncomfortable but we don’t have to ban them from doing art or cancel them just because their art is problematic by our standards. Everyone feels differently.
@Google_remote2 жыл бұрын
@@babyelijahwood7542 And whats worse is that these minors spread these beliefs to other fandoms and since they are a minor, "its okay" to do that. Ive been a victim of a similar situation, and It was hard for me to realize how bad iyt was, but im glad i got out of that rabbit hole. I feel sorry fir anyone who has experienced this..
@purrpletiger21592 жыл бұрын
"They aren't doing anything illegal" Actually.. depicting a minor in certain ways in art can be considered illegal on a case by case basis in the UK and in parts of the US. Doesn't matter that it's not a real kid
@Google_remote2 жыл бұрын
@@purrpletiger2159 Thank you! I really hate it when people try to defend these disgusting actions. The people who do are usually pedophiles.
@trianglepaw2 жыл бұрын
@@purrpletiger2159 what I meant is that “if what they are doing is legal than it isn’t our place to judge the morality of a piece of personal artwork so long as it is appropriately tagged and only being shared consensually with above-18 parties” sorry if that was confusing.
@trianglepaw2 жыл бұрын
@@purrpletiger2159 if in the situation something being created and shared IS illegal than obviously I don’t support it.
@ClownBARF10 ай бұрын
When I was a young impressionable and hormonal teen in middle/highschool, I got influenced by certain ship art I saw. my FIRST encounters with shipping was Mable x Bill Cipher and sexual Kai x Lloyd fanart a friend showed me. I got influenced by the 'bad' side of fanart and shipping. I didnt get taught consent/age of consent/sex ed by anyone and solely based my ideas off shipping art. thankfully I matured and realized that stuff was bad.
@DOCTORWHIMSY10 ай бұрын
that's great! i hope you're doing better now.
@SANESTMARIFANGIRL Жыл бұрын
Problematic media can exist as long as it is depicted as problematic and wrong and not glorified in any way.
@SANESTMARIFANGIRL Жыл бұрын
That is my opinion.
@mayhem_mars Жыл бұрын
Exactly, homever, unfortunately, alot of proshippers romanticizes ped0philia, !ncest, sh0ta/l0llicon and depicts it as fine and very "hot".
@Puerco-Potter11 ай бұрын
The birth of Venus is problematic, she is naked and has just been born, so she is a minor. I think we should destroy that painting.
@stargirIll10 ай бұрын
The problem is that most pro shippers don’t depict it in a problematic way. All I’ve seen is people ENDORSING it
@SANESTMARIFANGIRL10 ай бұрын
@@stargirIll that's my view on it, I'm not trying to defend proshippers.
@jessargo2 жыл бұрын
I usually just ignore proship stuff but lately it’s been hard because I want to look up Encanto fan art and then come across very gross stuff
@cupcakegirlseven2 жыл бұрын
Same. I dont like interacting with Pro-shippers due to them being overly gross ppl.
@californiagirls1706 Жыл бұрын
Im still very sad about the gross fanart
@howtodrinkwaterin5simplesteps Жыл бұрын
EXACTLY BRO. I JUST WANT TO SEE SOME NON INCEST, PEDOPHILIA CRAP AND I JUST WANT FAMILY FRIENDLY FLUFF and i see those mf ship arts and i keep getting reminded of how these kinds of things happen irl and i can never see the my comfort characters(who are brothers, and also depicted as minors half the time) the same again😭 (i may be overreacting, but they feel a little more ruined😃) like theres already enough angst about them alr and fluff is hard to come by, i dont need these disgusting af ship art come across my line of sight thrown in the mix too
@jessargo Жыл бұрын
@Mondlichts I never said it was new lol. Also nah, the most popular Frozen shit is Elsa x Jack Frost
@jessargo Жыл бұрын
@Mondlichts Trust me, I don't ship it myself, but if we're gonna get into the ethics of it, Jack Frost is an immortal being, so the age gap thing goes both ways ways with them weirdly enough 😭
@ke06062 жыл бұрын
TW I think one of the most important parts of vent art / shipping should be making it clear whether the actions depicted are good or not. When I was in a not too great place mentally, I viewed a lot of art that could be seen as depicting self harm in a neutral or glorified way. It numbed me to the topic a lot and I believe it contributed a lot to my own self harm issues. I don’t think it was my fault for going online when I wasn’t doing great, but I also don’t think artists should always be censored. I think artists should have the right to make whatever they want, however, they should be careful to not show bad things in a good light when posting them publicly. I think the same thing about most topics discussed in the whole pro / anti debate. Things that are bad in real life can be shown, but should be shown in a negative light. Yes, fiction most of the time doesn’t directly contribute to reality, but numbing people to sensitive subjects can cause serious indirect harm. I think the extremes on both ends of the debate are stupid and no one should be harassed for their opinion.
@taithedie2 жыл бұрын
I agree 100%
@toynbeetile2 жыл бұрын
as someone more on the anti side of the argument, im just gonna say a few things number one is that the only thing antis generally have a problem with is when people glorify and romanticize horrible relationships. no anti that i have interacted with has an issue with these relationships simply being depicted. it's all a matter of whether or not it's being shown as a bad thing or a good thing. number two is that while yes, some antis do harass proshippers (something i cannot deny happens because i have seen it in real time), proshippers do some of the exact same things to us. ive seen proshippers suicidebait and send death and r%pe threats to minors on multiple occassions. you can't say antis are pro harassment and ignore the harassment that proshippers have caused or done. and number three is that while it is not the artist's responsibility to monitor how people use their art, they need to understand that art of pedophilia and incest and other things like that can and will be used by predators to normalize the situation to their victims. not to throw personal experience into the mix, but i had a friend who got groomed through being shown pedophilic ships and having them glorified to him so that the situation seemed normal. the act of producing this material is not harming real children, but the people who enjoy it can and will use it to harm real children. that's all my thoughts here unless i remember something else and add it lol, thanks for reading this rant :)
@d4xn4v2 жыл бұрын
EXACTLY, i don’t support “proship/comship” bc most of the time they excuse atrocities just bc it’s fiction. i understand that what ppl consume in internet doesn’t mean that they do or/and support that IRL, but they want to normalize abusive shipps, inc3st, r4p3, p3dophilia, gr00ming, sexualization of minors, bestiality just bc ‘it’s fiction’…if ppl want to vent and all it’s okay, it’s not wrong to use those themes while they’re portrayed as a bad thing, but the majority of them do romanticize and fetishize those topics, and with anime for example, they do the same but w ‘lolicon/shotacon’…i’ve seen horrible things, fan arts and tweets of ppl saying disgusting stuff like (tw: r4p3) they want to molest or r4pe characters that are minors and stuff like that.
@taithedie2 жыл бұрын
THIS!!!
@mysryuza2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for trying to take on a neutral take on the topic. There is too much nuance in both sides and what people should realize that both sides have their share of the same types of terrible people and we should put more attention on working on dealing with those people rather than generalizing either side as a whole. I see too many videos demonizing proshipping, therefore catering to the people who spread the inaccurate definitions of “they support all bad things,” and not enough people coming from the other side. It’s scary that people from either side going after real minors to su*cide bait. People and kids are being outed in places that are anti-lgbtq+ and/or took their own lives over ships and their own content due to anti’s harassing them and telling them to end their lives, which doesn’t help their cause. There are people abused from the proshipping side, which doesn’t help their side either. I understand both sides, even though people don’t see me as doing so
@jayelyon30782 жыл бұрын
timestamps :] 6:40 - vent art 13:39 - loli con 17:01 - pro-/antishippers
@JewelWildmoon2 жыл бұрын
Thx!
@dreamcookie57422 жыл бұрын
(Tw:SH) As someone who does vent art to well vent.It helped me alot with my depression.My vent art has SH in it because i harm myself.I never showed my own scars irl and i have tw infront of my art.I got a lot of hate comments just for venting and getting my feelings out. Posting it helped me because it is like getting a weight of my chest like showing the world that im not my trauma. I think if people dont like my art they can just move on since i do put tw warings before you can look at the pictures so you can decided not to look at it.
@angeIfeather2 жыл бұрын
Since I haven’t seen any comments saying this, your drawing of Venti at Windrise(? Please correct me if I’m wrong I haven’t played in a while) is amazing!!
@DuchessCelestia2 жыл бұрын
thank you so much!!
@fayeissilly2229 ай бұрын
i really hate how abusive ship art that is shown in a positive light is now watered down to “problematic”. i really don’t like how any weird or bad stuff is called that because it makes us all look really dumb idk
@ren_suzugamori14272 жыл бұрын
The biggest example of "vent art" is what Chris Chan did. It's an NSFW act between him and a girl he knows, but can't act on it morally. The fact he posted it is what, in context, is immoral.
@gel68652 жыл бұрын
yeah, thats so creepy.. oh and btw the person you're referring to uses she/her pronouns now edit: turns out i was wrong, my bad
@keckingrabbit3542 жыл бұрын
@@gel6865 he’s not a woman.Chris Chan makes a lot of “personas” that he pretends to be a and woman Chris Chan is one of them. He decided to “become” a woman because the trolls on the internet told him that lesbians will be easy prey if he put on a wig.
@gel68652 жыл бұрын
@@keckingrabbit354 ohh shit fr? didn't know that. thanks for letting me know
@calliethewolfcat21832 жыл бұрын
I agree with having a generally neutral perspective. I do admit that at one point- I was much younger, and a bit of an extremist in my views- I was an Anti. However, I've come to learn that topics like this aren't as black and white as we make them out to be. And it's alright to have an opinion, but it's not okay to shove or force that opinion onto other people. I've tried to remain neutral on most topics, and not overly biased on these subjects, but I feel validated listening to your thoughts.
@Savanyy2 ай бұрын
I make a lot of vent art related to self harm and an0rexia. Especially self harm, as it helps me minimize my urges. I’ve never posted it anywhere but ED and/or SH specific forums. I’ve only shared one or two. Like you said there’s a lot of nuance. I don’t think what I do is wrong. In a forum post, there is a clear title and warning to a post before you ever see the art. I dont see anything wrong with what I do, honestly. The art I make graphically depicting traumatic events I’ve never posted or shown to anyone. Mainly because it’s very hard for me to share these things with anyone, especially the billions of people online who could find it. Edit: I also find that looking at other peoples self harm or ED vent art is personally helpful for me in some situations. Not sure why, exactly, but sometimes looking at graphic mental illness art like that helps me to not hurt my own self. I have never been a part of any community or discourse or anything about SA/CSA vent art. If it’s children in a sexual situation I don’t think it should be posted. If it’s more vague, I think it’s possible that it’s ok to share. Like, a child being actively assaulted versus a child sleeping on the floor, crying, hiding under the bed, scared of a monster in their room, etc. is different than drawing a kid actively in a sexual situation. Idk though. In the end it’s not up to me.
@non-existent_charlie2 жыл бұрын
I personally have met some sh*tty pro shippers and some nice antis I am kinda an anti, I am against a good chunk of those ships, and ones for very specific reasons, but I don't condone harassment because of characters together, especially since I have received those threats before, I hate that people actually believe in harassment as something to solve this stuff
@Shadow1Yaz2 жыл бұрын
I think you’re right. I think a problem with people putting down a “rule” is they want it to be an easy fix, like “everything problematic shouldn’t be posted ever.” But really everything needs to be handled case by case because some art is made with malicious intent and some isn’t. It’s a lot of work but I think it’s worth it.
@pixiewixiee2 жыл бұрын
while I think there absolutely is nuance to be found in fiction and discussing problematic works, I find it very hard to take proshippers seriously. I've tried reaching out to some when I was doxxed by an anti and was completely ignored because I came across as an anti, have had proship ex friends cut me off calling me a "hypocrite" for liking a fictional character who murdered people but being uncomfortable with a ship they liked (never called them out, nor did I name them online to harass) and have been dealing with a proshipper stalking me for over 2 years. It's incredibly frustrating seeing people claim they advocate against harassment, but are completely and fully willing to dogpile and keep track of someone's social media under the guise of holding someone accountable. In my personal opinion, both proshipper communities and anti communities have the exact same mindset, they think black and white, and that anyone who is against their world view and morals is the second coming of Satan himself. They both think that doxxing/harassment/stalking is justifiable when it's against someone they dislike, and for proshipper communities specifically it *needs* to be addressed instead of sweeping it under the rug and not taking anyone seriously. It's not a perfect world and almost every single community is going to have bad apples - for example I have a close friend who leans to the proshipper side, but is also disgusted and disappointed with the community's behaviour as well. Consequently, I've also seen proshippers harassing content creators for their stances on these issues and even accusing them of being "hypocritical" by suggesting or outright stating they are pedophiles which is, ironically, hypocritical in itself as apart of what proshippers (rightfully) criticise antis for is the unjust labelling of someone and calling them a pedo. Two wrongs don't make a right and I find it appalling they're willing to potentially ruin someone's career over fictional discourse. That's not how u should tell someone they're in the wrong. I think it should be worth considering how the opponent feels on the other end of the debate. Just like proshippers, not all antis are evil, secretly hypocritical pedophilic scum of the earth. It's hard to see that when both communities are filled with vitriol and hatred towards each other. Personally, I don't think being proship or leaning towards the side makes u automatically a pedo. However I do think there should be cause for concern if someone is intent on glorifying and depicting drawn realistic versions of children. It's one thing to acknowledge they're cartoons, it's another to see a small child in media and think about (god forbid) fucking them. I think there's a difference between vent art and actual predatory behaviour, because a predator is someone who wants to take advantage of power imbalances and those power imbalances can still be visually depicted even in media (if that makes sense). Predators should generally get help for their urges, and I fear encouraging their mindset will only encourage them to prey on actual minors and think it's okay to do so. Sorry this got so long lmao, I'm very open to discussion in the replies, all I ask is that you please be kind and respectful!
@lilbloomingdaisy96432 жыл бұрын
I don't know in which space/forum/group (whatever) you have been over the years but I see way more people in the Anti-shipping community putting themselves on a pedestal and overlooking/not acknowledging toxic anti-shippers than I see Pro-shippers sweeping toxic pro-shippers under the rug. Fandoms and basically everyone knows (at least I think so lol) that pro-shippers can be extremely toxic, even shippers seem to agree on that, but I barely/rarely see people critiqing anti-shippers' toxicity, I usually see only one way and not the other.
@pavelZhd2 жыл бұрын
10:01 It is important to show "vent art" to other people. One of the points of doing this exercise is to get an outside perspective that might help find a solution or at least a direction to this problem a person is unable to resolve internally. Obviously it is best to show vent art to a qualified psychologist or another person who might be qualified to provide help. But when lacking such person just publishing it in the open is a good thing to do. First of all - there might actually be a qualified person who sees it. Or someone who sees it might show it to a qualified person and thus get the creator in touch with help they need. And failing this - just having feedback from other people might be helpful just to realise you are not alone. And sure. There are potential negatives of showing vent art in the open. And there are people who are making stuff that resembles vent art but is more akin to exhibitionism. But given the real limited array of what a person struggling with mental distress have, I don't think those factors justify shunning vent art publication.
@TheArtMentor2 жыл бұрын
This is such a touchy topic, and I respect your opinions on these issues. Overall though, if we’re responsible for our actions, then doesn’t it stand to reason that we need to assume some level of accountability for our artwork? Be it conscious, subconscious, or intent
@saltydinonuggies18412 жыл бұрын
10:32 so my take on this specifically is that if we’re deciding that all unhealthy art is immoral then we need to ban all horror art. Anything relating to murder. And I know a lot of people that would be mad over that, myself included. Which is why I’m so glad this video is more nuanced then that.
@charlie4039k Жыл бұрын
Exactly. Any type of art that depicts harming anyone or anything would have to be censored or outright banned. Which I find stupid. There are a lot of things we explore in fiction that we wouldn't ever do in real life. Such as aliens, zombies, battle royales where we go up against other people fighting for the last one alive, slasher films where serial killer slaughters multiple people & we enjoy it. Doesn't mean we would enjoy it irl or even do it ourselves irl. Yes, not everyone likes horror, some people get traumatized from watching a horror film. Does that mean horror films should get censored/banned because there are people people who have been traumatized watching it? If they weren't good with horror they could not watch it. Another thing is if that horror movie showed a serial killer killing multiple people, and it was seen by about a billion people, but out of that audience about a hundred thousand people committed multiple murders, becoming serial killers themselves. Does that mean that everyone who watched the movie like killing people or are serial killer? Is it the responsibility of the entire audience to not watch something because 0.01% of them did the things depicted in the film? Were the serial killers killing(or had killing tendencies) before that?, were they forced to kill by the movie? Should the movie be banned/censored because it inspired about 0.01% people to become serial killers? I think if that movie showed real people actually getting killed then it should be banned. Same with loli/shotacon art. If it is INDISTINGUISHABLE from reality it's the same as real. But if it is clearly distinguishable, and it's triggering, people should just not watch it. Also a lot of people are saying that if a minor sees those types of things they would be affected too, my question is why would a minor invade an nsfw 18+ space & see those types of stuff since clearly they're not the target audience. People shouldn't have to pander to other people's children complaining about certain stuff when they shouldn't even seeing it in the first place.
@gustavus00137 ай бұрын
@charlie4039k Curious. What counts as undistinguishable from reality? regarding the l*li/sh*ta discourse
@DollEyedNurse2 жыл бұрын
Hello! I really loved your points in this video. I wanted to say I am a person who is heavily immersed in the Menhera/YamiKawaii/Traumacore communities. I used these communities by making art and music. And these particular communities thrive around vent art. Since I am diagnosed with C-PTSD, And many other things I don't feel like listing here, vent art has helped me so much... I use it as art therapy with a therapist guide. I rarely post any of my vents but I never saw anything wrong with it! As long as you post trigger warnings, and have the right circle you should be fine posting vents. But be sure you are also getting the mental help you need from therapists or medication if it's serious!
@TobiasFangorIsntCis Жыл бұрын
Honestly, I don’t think my opinion on whether a piece of art or writing should exist matters, because in the end *cencorship doesn’t work* . People will always make explicit content, and telling them that it will be taken down just encourages them to not mark it as such. I strive to keep in mind the difference between “what will make me feel accomplished” and “what will actually reduce the most harm.” And what reduces the most harm, in reality, is warning viewers ahead of time, marking problematic content as such, and making it so people can’t stumble upon such thing without seeking them out.
@Shammrye2 жыл бұрын
I'm not really pro or anti but I will say the anti extreme of "if you make it you support it" is so weird to me, because by that logic anyone who's every created a villain or antagonist for their story endorses that characters behavior.... like what? But then you have creators often times actually saying "I had my villain do this because I think this action is bad and so that's why my bad character does bad thing." ....................................................................................... I just....... i can't. again this is not an endorsement or admonishment for either side, I'm just critiquing that one incredibly flawed piece of logic.
@LilyCelebiFlipnote2 жыл бұрын
As someone whose words about creating gory art and villain characters as an artist and covering immoral topics in art actually got them falsely accused of stalking and threatening with a weapon in real life, then evicted and suspended from my school and forced to go home to a place I didn't want to be... yeah. Hard agree. These people actually exist out in the real world and literally criminalize creating art of "bad" topics they don't like based on trauma, then twist shit to get you out of their lives to feel all self-righteous when none of it is logical at all.
@nightrose61162 жыл бұрын
they sound like the "violent video games cause school shootings!!!!" moms fr
@LilyCelebiFlipnote2 жыл бұрын
@@nightrose6116 That one moment when that was my mom at one point :,I
@iwersonsch5131 Жыл бұрын
"What matters is that we foster a community where opinions on these concerns can be, fairly and reasonably, disgust and hurt." Well said.
@SimonRaahauge1973 Жыл бұрын
an open and honest discussion would be nice.
@SickTwistedQueen Жыл бұрын
lmfao at the twitter user who said "a 6 month old baby being attracted to children is a predator" i spit out my damn water
@auggiewauggiepauggie2 жыл бұрын
I know this video is older so idk if you’re even going to see this, but I was groomed as a teenager and it’s really hard for me to articulate that art like what was talked about is a big reason why. My groomer and I bonded over this art that we would find together and I was so incredibly desensitized by everything that is wrong about adult and minor relationships that it has created long lasting trauma and problems in my life that I still struggle with as an adult. I had considered myself a pro shipper, existed in said spaces, knew and believed all the arguments they make and defended many- one resulting in a tirade where an artist doxed a bunch of kids that had made a group chat made to bring awareness of harmful artists which is honestly to much to explain in one comment. I really enjoyed this video, and how you handled and explained things because there is a lot of nuance on both sides and also a lot of… I guess for lack of words extremists on both sides. Not all “problematic” content is made equal, and there’s nothing wrong with exploring some parts. My favorite tv show is Hannibal, and I know that’s thrown around a lot by antis for being abusive and problematic- but I still really enjoy it. I think it’s easy to say that fans of the show aren’t going to turn to eating people, and I find a lot of solace with main character but I’m not going to do any of the gruesome things he does in the show and I find a lot of the things that happen visually and emotionally beautiful but would never dream about making them a reality. On the other hand from personal experience especially as a teenager when exposed to things by a trusted loved adult to the very large quantity I was it starts to numb the harm and effects. As I said before it’s really hard for me to articulate everything because in the end it was just an over arching abusive relationship in general, and I’d like to think that I’m the worst case scenario that fiction effects reality. I was a smart kid, and this happened over the course of years so even though I knew what was happening was bad I was manipulated and gaslit by someone I loved and trusted and was repeatedly told I was different and that it was more of a social taboo. Finding so much media depicting what we enjoyed about our relationship in such large quantities and being normalized by many people also really effected that also, because if it’s bad then why do so many people enjoy it. Now after being out of that situation for many years, going to extensive therapy and seeing things in hindsight as an adult I still adamantly thing creating any content showing minors in any sexual way is wrong, and I definitely think it reflects on the artist or creator in some capacity. When talking about literally everything else is when it gets way more nuanced than I think people want to accept, and I don’t think any party is right and I don’t think there’s any way to resolve either. When bringing up what should or shouldn’t be made and posted there is no universal objective line, and since that line is entirely subjective it will just be the same arguments from all sides going in a circle. So even though I went through a very harrowing experience as a kid, I don’t want to completely blame the artists but I can’t not at the very least a little bit because from being the scapegoat minor they are saying people should focus on instead they are catering to a very specific audience that they probably don’t want to accept they are apart of and because of my experience I can say with my whole chest that this pro and anti stuff is bullshit lol. Both sides egg each other on to be worse and do worse things, and I know so many people that make worse and worse gross art of kids to spite antis and minors that speak up about it while I know so many antis make the artists lives a living hell by endless harassment and doxing and I have long since removed myself from the equation because it’s a tiring argument where no one is going to win. Anyways, this video is very refreshing to have watched and listened to and I really enjoyed everything you had to say.
@madamebunbun34792 жыл бұрын
To be honest I decided I don't care what proshippers ship anymore its not my business and I can just ignore their questionable views and content I also feel anyone who adds anti as a "title" to their identity is also a problem to those they disagree with you don't have to say you're an "anti" just say you don't agree with them and leave it at that
@TheLastMimzie2 жыл бұрын
This woman never misses. She is well researched, reasonable, and respectful.
@PumpyGT Жыл бұрын
REAL
@SandDragon912 жыл бұрын
My two cents. If you don't like, don't look at it. Don't seek it out to berate people. Block and move on with your life. I'm more on the pro side of things, but I'm also understanding of the fact that people have triggers and things they find uncomfortable. So, stay tf away from it. It is not the fault of the artist/writer/whatever if you look for something and are Pikachu face when you find it. Block the tag. The artist/writer, etc. Censorship is not and will never be the answer to me. Period.
@soomi56672 жыл бұрын
This is how I view it as well.
@AlejaI2 жыл бұрын
I've actually had to step in plenty of the steps of this war, though I would never label myself as anything. I started as what one would categorize as an anti, completely against all mediums of bad relationships, particularly toxic ones. Then a brick struck when I found myself shipping a particularly toxic ship. By that point I became that of a standpoint similar to your own. But then another hit struck when later on, that now leads me in a dangling rope between the two. At the moment I'd say I fall in one would describe like a pro-shipper, but again, it's a dangling line. Specially since I have to debate a lot about my own morality. I don't think I have to explain how toxic relationships may be enjoyed, as you sourced Piper who explains it. What came from that, however, is what led me to a more "pro-shipper" approach to things. I know for a fact that my own relationship with the toxic relationships is of a place of drawn to it through fiction, an interest yet not a desire for it. The thing is, that may just be the same mentality to a shipper of... idk an incest ship? Or an age-gap ship? The same premise of "I don't condone this in real life" can be applied for them, and I've seen plenty of them apply that same logic. It feels like it would be hypocritical of my part be actively against them. And this does weight on my mental/moral feeling. But not as much as what "sexualization of child characters" brings. This is one is even trickier for me than any shipping. Two other commentors talked about it in here. Plenty of anime characters don't FEEL like children. Be it MHA or Sonic or any of those, for plenty of people their age doesn't come to mind because they can pass as adults to plenty of people's interpretations. And that for me too. Of the times I was an "anti" per say, I was obviously very against minor sexualization, but I still engaged with it through anime not recognizing it as such, because they don't feel like kids. Lolicon is something different that I honestly do not feel like talking about. But in the case I proposed, the spotlight on it has really weighted a lot. Another problem that surfaces is the fact that I am around the character's ages now, which in the video's interpretation is cool the feeling of attraction, but my struggle will come from growing up. I will become of age, but the characters won't. And I don't think it's sizeable or understandable that my attractions would poof away the moment I turn 18. And this is true for plenty of adults nowadays. A reason for the great amount of a lot of rl34 of the Pokémon girls is because of the nostalgia factor of them, as well as a lingering attraction. With all of that combined and a bit more, I can't pull myself to be against what would be a clear thing normally. By the end it became less passionate and more convoluted, I apologize. But yeah, I think there's a lot of weird game here, as applying one law to one example gives the need for that same law on another account, unless it can be proven it doesn't deserve it compared to the other example. I'd like to see a reason for applying the rule to a category but not another.
@cxlesstial2 жыл бұрын
i was. literally listening to this in the background while i wrote my debate case on why objective morality doesn't exist and then IT WAS A LITERAL POINT IN THE VIDEO oh my god
@DrifteR_GuyY Жыл бұрын
My opinion: No matter what you agree with or what side yo are on; DEATH THREATS ARE NOT FUCKING OKAY GODDAMNIT
@YinAndYang_ii Жыл бұрын
Agreed
@dadytohe11 ай бұрын
i'm still 14, and my waifu is like 15-16. I don't really care if people call me pedo if i turned 18. They also can't send me dead threats for what i do, as long as i don't harm people. I'm Vietnamese so yk
@nimthegoodra81302 жыл бұрын
Used to be friends with an anti who accused and tried to call me out as a pedofile for drawing a character of mine as an adult in a sexual adult relationship with another adult character all because "the character is a child." This character I've also equally drawn in all stages of his life. Hell, I drew less of him as a kid then as an adult but because all they saw of him was child him, clearly, hes a child and nothing more
@HOGSOOEY2 жыл бұрын
if ur aging up a child character from an existing franchise, I could understand the anger. but doing that to ur oc..... LOL thats your oc who cares
@bashartz Жыл бұрын
@@HOGSOOEY eh even then Ig it depends on the intention behind WHY you did it in the first place, and then again usually if u age up a character is because u like that character's personality and believe you'd be attracted to an adult with such personality, not because it's a child and it would be "weird" if u drew pr0nn of them. At least from what I have seen.
@plagued_arts2 жыл бұрын
This is pretty much the exact same opinion I have! I don't agree fully with Proshippers or Antis, and I don't want to be associated with either side
@bruna75349 ай бұрын
vent art is acturally something that is supposed to be made through therapy to be actually effective. You discuss and express in therapy as it is a safe space for that, and your therapeut would be helping you in this process, and even talk with them bout posting it or not (kinda, the posting part, it may be kinda dangerous for some, but actually really "releasing" experience, and not feeling alone and shut by your trauma and finding people who connects with it and validates it is the most humanizing thing someone would fell to help them recover from their trauma). And I'm talking about it from a few experiences I saw.