It's time to MUTILATE - Phase 2 Rogue Talents in Season of Discovery

[@gnarlicbread5140]

Honestly, this mutilate change makes me even more excited about Direbrew's Shanker, i think about it every night before sleep. Direbrew's Shanker is an 87.5 DPS dagger that drops from the Brewfest event. It has the same DPS as Emerald Ripper, an item which gets disenchanted more often than not in your Karazhan runs. So why is Direbrew's Shanker good? Top-end damage. Direbrew's Shanker has a weapon speed of 2.0s (paying homage to the Barman's Shanker from classic) which gives this starter-quality epic 228 top-end damage. That's 15% more top-end damage than Malchazeen, 5% more top-end damage than Fang of Vashj, and 2% more top-end damage than season 3 gladiator weapons. Season 2 just started this week, by the way. You can't find a dagger with higher top-end damage until you kill Illidan. The Shard of Azzinoth boasts 242 top-end damage, a 6% upgrade from Direbrew's Shanker. Most rogues only use daggers for ambush. Direbrew's Shanker is the best ambush weapon you can get for a long time. Rogues - make sure to get one before Brewfest ends. Direbrew's Shanker is an 87.5 DPS dagger that drops from the Brewfest event. It has the same DPS as Emerald Ripper, an item which gets disenchanted more often than not in your Karazhan runs.

[@SimonizeShow]

I have a poster on my wall that just says "228"

[@janakipejov3667]

Wtf are u yapping about, this isnt tbc

[@Truster18]

I still don't get it. Explain it to me like i'm 5 years old. How is Direbrew's Shanker relevant now if were lvl 40 and not in TBC?

[@Shabztubeyou]

My man is lost in the ripples of time

[@Daniel-tf6zz]

BUT all the HYPE for a weapon thats not in sod?! in sod isnt ability damage now normalized? means top end weapon damage doesnt affect ability damage at all as its normalized to a speed of weapon type. Correct me if im wrong.

[@seanomac792]

You are THE rogue man in my eyes. I always recommend your channel to people who ask anything about rogues.

[@chiefvercingetorix3662]

Pve yeah

[@snoozwho]

@@chiefvercingetorix3662 Bobka/Payo pvp

[@WoundmanTV]

Hi Simon. Just wanted to say thanks for sharing all your knowledge and experience with the Rogue community. Looking forward to playing Mutilate like the old days. Mutilate was definitely one of my favorite specs to play.

[@SimonizeShow]

You're welcome :)

[@coffeemate5019]

Thank you so much, was looking foward for this. Starting the phase with a totally different build is very exiting.

[@xmlviking]

love it switched to Mutilate last night based on the patch notes. Can't wait!

[@Jokkmeistah]

Your guides has been awesome for a n00b Rogue player. Could you please go through the basic rotation in dungeons with the Mutilate-build pre-40?

[@NicholasAdamsDPM]

Mutilate feels really good right now. I’m running around with 2 serrakis daggers and the 20% damage increase works off of their poison as far as I can tell. 30% crit chance is big too. I’m at 47% crit on every mutilate now

[@Payowow]

thx you so much

[@carlcarlson4980]

PPC

[@evanm4682]

For PVE, do you want to envenom at 4 combo points or go all the way to 5? (since mutilate gives 2)

[@R_a_X]

Thank you Simon for all your fantastic and prompt work as always. I wanted to add something for the solo/questing build. The runes. I was experimenting yesterday and general killing uptime/fluidness (fluidity?) feels a lot better with Blade Dance/JaFW, rather than Deadly Brew/Envenom. The reason for this is twofold. We won't reliably get many Deadly stacks on a mob before it dies, so Envenom gets hit pretty hard here and we can just Eviscerate instead. We will lose a small amount of damage from the lack of Deadly Poison, and also losing a possible 20% buffed Mutilate from having Deadly up. This is made up by having the two tanking runes on and being able to fight significantly more mobs before eating. This is probably less impactful with better gear, but just wanted to share my anecdotal experience.

[@nicuvozian2627]

I think rs/dws build has the most sustained dps on longer fights, and I was thinking for almost the exact same build with maybe 2 talent points difference for lvl 40 raid. AR is only good for short fights imo, but this will be later during the phase when people will get more gear, as fresh 40 the relentless strike/dual wield has to be the highest dps, i am almost sure about this. You gain a lot of combo points, get 25 energy for finishing moves, can spam envenom al lot while having slice and dice up all the time.

[@nigelrichens3938]

Thanks for this guide as always great can’t wait to start levelling again

[@Waivern589]

Finally a proper chance for daggers! so excited about this! thanks for the great guide and options. hope to see a update on the poisons from you. will you make a gear guide also?

[@Sarthetv]

SIMON THE GOAT

[@kevinhoang9236]

love this video. thanks for all the context and situations

[@SkyFz9]

Quick question why not drop points into backstab? Since it works with mutliate as well

[@yScribblezHD]

This makes backstab builds for pvp a lot more in line with raiding talents, which is awesome! With no dual spec, it'll be nice to be able to run a suboptimal build that works well in both with some small rune swaps.

[@Kraykz]

Backstab became obsolete with recent Mutilate buffs. Mut does the same (or more) damage, costs 20 energy less (or has deadly poison rune) and adds more combo points. They overtuned it.

[@H1LTO]

​@@Kraykzjust wanna add BS costs 40 as well with the Rune

[@sonsofodin6143]

do the 3/3 backstab talents work with mutilate? I mean the added crit?@@Kraykz

[@Ghost-fe1vp]

IT does but im fairly certain its 15% like in wotlk not 30% like the tooltip says.@@sonsofodin6143

[@Kraykz]

@@H1LTO hence I added "(or has deadly poison rune)" which nets more damage @sonsofodin6143 it does

[@Upuroade]

muti hype muti hype!!!

[@Soeze]

Finally!! I was waiting on a phase 2 video! Thanks man!!❤❤❤

[@JohnBoy82287]

I was s2 merciless gladiator in 2s during TBC, I was always a shadowstep hemo mace rogue with that being said- I always hated daggers/ poisons, but the mutilate buffs and runes have been extremely fun this time around. Wouldn’t have done it without seeing this video of yours. Thank you

[@Steak51430]

id love to hear you talk about some pvp builds and things youd recommend going into the new event as a rogue

[@robertmast1027]

Amazing analysis Simon!!!

[@agelosvs2080]

since mutilate benefits from backstab isn't assassination better with max lethality and 5 opportunity? also rest of the points into combat for utility on sprint/evasion. Seems a good allrounder to me for pvp and pve also without needing to respec everytime

[@TomGotGanked]

Simon already with the clutch video

[@KeyGk1]

What should i do in multitarget situation when mobs die quickly? They are dying so fast in dungeons that i can even finish single target rotation.

[@mattiasberglund4607]

I have a question regarding the raiding build. Why the point in cold blood? A situational (if you want to max it) on a long cd? Shouldn’t another talent be better over CB? Like 4/5 lethality for example.

[@alexcarty89]

Have you tried 5 talent points in Seal Fate vs 5 talent points in Opportunity? I like the 20% increase to mutilate in Opportunity but Seal Fate feels really good, great video thanks for all the info!

[@geofft7664]

this is whose teaching me SoD rogue so far and its going well :)

[@silviomartinezmedina8415]

Is not better to take seal fate over Opportunity for more combo points and more envenoms? And also get vigor for an extra 10 energy maybe

[@Myraxes]

Any thoughts on taking Remorseless Attacks for leveling? Since it adds up to 40% crit to Backstab after killing an enemy, wouldn't that apply to Mutilate as well?

[@rodb402]

so, wwhich one mutilate build are good for fresh 40? coold blood,rs/dws or combat mutilate ?

[@Mogpoop]

thanks man! im starting to look like pretty decent rogue ty to u.

[@koza8955]

Sod has managed to: 1. Remove the age old choice rogues had between daggers & swords. We are now forced into daggers. 2. Feed rogues the same useless rune 2 phases in a row. (Shiv & Poison Knife) 3. 0 tanking viability beyond level 25 dungeons

[@Fsbr21]

so my builder is multilate and then i dont use backstab ever correct?

[@jakerogueXD]

Just curious, where is combat daggers with mut at rn?

[@SlappyOne1233]

Does the improved sinister strike talent still affect mutilate? Or does it just stay at 40 energy?

[@wolkencs]

Hey Simon, a quick question. The talent "Opportunity" has the text "striking from behind" does that mean that I need to be using Mutilate only when behind my target to get this benefit?

[@Pelashi]

"Striking from behind" is flavor text. It says that because it normally only applies to abilities that already require being behind. This may be a bug that may be fixed in the future.

[@Andy4BackFlip]

With the dungeon leveling build do you envenom at 4 or 5 combo points?

[@icebox1954]

I'm lvling (lvl 19) and before the patch Mutilate didn't feel good at all but now it's amazing. And that's without Envenom and Deadly Brew. Best lvling ability by far.

[@epj149]

will you make one for tank rogues?

[@sir_ladykiller1803]

what daggers to use while lvling all the preraid guides are crazy shit from like lvl 45 elites super low drop rate? is the torturing poker worth using from sm? or just 2 serrakis? or serrakis and meteor shard?

[@yourfriendsquid9199]

Great video, curious why you always go Lightning Reflexes in combat as opposed to putting points in imp SS/gouge. I understand they're not the focus of this build, but wouldn't it help you more than having an increased dodge chance?

[@bmcash09]

Love all the info and the discord! How are the sims for rogue looking with these builds? Are warriors completely dumpstering us in sims or are we close?

[@Deadlywhite]

Great video as always Simon. Thankies for the hard work so I don't have too hah

[@yungsmorc6462]

Looking good mate. Good video, I agree about your points, pretty logically approached. Gl on parses in p2

[@Mug_O_Tea]

Out of interest does the cold blood opportunity build outshine combat even without the +dagger skill from the set? Or do you need tor set for your Sims to beat out the weapon skill for glancing now's etc

[@gaubicathegamer3333]

What would be the best PVP build ????

[@GuuzFTW]

Just noticed that the Opportunity talent tooltip says "damage dealt when striking from behind" but thats because all of the mentioned abilities on the tooltip can only be casted while behind. Would that %dmg increase work when hitting from the front aswell?

[@riotpiker5440]

Confirmed that mutilate DOES work with damage added from any direction, not just behind!

[@elvircimirotic4918]

what would be the best build for pvp? in terms of runes and talents. So you skip between the eyes and rely on other stuns and still go for poisons?

[@TheMalbec9]

what would be the best weapons for the mutilate / CB build?

[@vazgod]

What dag speeds we using .. slow fast , fast fast , fast slow ?

[@solitzpvp4166]

so do we want fast mh slow oh like in wotlk or just slow mh fast oh

[@Knoir99]

does shurikan toss apply poisons too

[@eldengard23]

did you try the full crit envenom spec? 9 into combat 5 into Sub rest into assa

[@rebel6176]

How do we spend combo points with mutilate? Do we use our finishers at 4 cp or overcap by 1 and wasting a cp to get 5 cp finishers?

[@mrloqqe1610]

i dont like to overshoot. so me i'm either casting slice&dice with 4 or, if i happen to have 5stacks of DP up already, im probably going for envenom, but sometimes i use a SS to fill up the last CP before hitting the envenom. not sure if thats optimal, but it's where i landed for now. i also just only use the raid talent build the entire time, while leveling and everything. i'm way too cheap and lazy to switch around, learn the different playstyles and everything. i feel like the build is fine even for leveling and fun as well actually, at least for me. i obliterate mobs very easily and my gear is kinda trash, nothing special at all. i still have very little raid or dungeon gear. so pretty happy with my rogue atm. especially thx to mutilate, theyre quite strong right now, i think. at least in pve, that is. i havent played much pvp until now, but from what i can tell, rogues dont appear to be particular strong atm. kinda meh actually. there are not that many classes, that we beat (easily). or that i beat (easily), i should probably say. maybe with full BiS and actual PVP build, things look different tho. :D

[@StoicNothingless]

Great channel! Thank you

[@tdawgluxor1060]

What Poisons should we use in the mutilate builds? double instant poison or mix instant with deadly?

[@CyberCaox]

no poison at all my dude you got deadly brew rune

[@tdawgluxor1060]

@@CyberCaox but doesnt it help, having poisons on the daggers anyway? I know its different with wild strikes and other buffs but for leveling?!

[@andreaslivathynos3044]

I have a question for you, will mutilate be the go to for rogue tanks? thank you

[@XavierGuillaume]

Wouldn't Opportunity not be good for solo build bc you have to be behind the target?

[@typhfab]

ty for the info simon!

[@SamthePlayer]

Hi Simon, I only got into SoD recently, just got my rogue to 25 yesterday. Sitting on a Thief's Blade and Kris. I still got Blade of Cunning in my bag. Are there any easy to grab daggers you could recommend to someone like me to start utilizing Mutilate right away? As someone who only fell in love with Vanilla WoW after Classic launch (started playing in Legion), I really appreciate all of your guides!

[@SimonizeShow]

Scout's Blade / Sentinel's Blade is quite good, those are from WSG revered reputation though. Meteor Shard from last boss of SFK is next best, probably what you should go for. Cross Dagger of Power or Honed Stiletto of Power are OK choices for your offhand, not great for mainhand. Those come from the AH.

[@SamthePlayer]

@@SimonizeShow Sweet, that gives me something to work toward. Thank you so much!

[@H1LTO]

What you looking at for PVP, Simon?

[@bookbookbook1]

I feel like subterfuge would've been more fun than master of sub. 10% damage increase looks nice but pretty static and not every engaging. Subterfuge letting you use stealth abilities for 3 seconds out of stealth sounds incredibly fun and I don't think its even that strong with combo points resetting on target swapping.

[@Soundwave299]

How do you come up with saber spec being 16% behind? Others give a range of 10% behind to 10% above factoring in buffs from other classes. I’m curious how you do the math

[@GenerallyTyler]

I like how we're just going to pretend if Mutilate is performing so spectacularly Blizz isn't going to make adjustments to it. They should buff the other runes instead of nerf this one.

[@burnafew]

As someone who got both fist weapons week 1, kind of disappointed their useless. You borderline can't even reliably farm SM with them with bladeflurry.

[@danielmalone4820]

How much better do you expect 5/5 Opportunity to be than Seal Fate on single target Mutilate spec??

[@simonandersson3248]

does lethality work for mutilate?

[@callumwood6937]

Will you be doing anything on Rogue tanking Simon ?

[@Giimmiiee]

Do you have leveling and raiding tanking talent builds?

[@justapourguy]

Would really appreciate it if tank specs existed

[@Lobosthecrow]

are we skipping Remorseless Attacks? feel like 2/10/4 or (2/9/5) at 25 would be better, then switching when we get blade flurry at 30.

[@derbessere]

For solo questing best option. As both daggers gonna crit, if mob got poisoned.

[@MWGriffith093]

Do we know if gnomer (mechanical) bosses will be immune to bleeds or poisons. been looking for this info and seems like its not being talked about enough

[@Spennyli]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fmecgXeresaresU 2:38 they say nothing will be outright immune

[@kylealbert353637]

THE KING

[@shad0ws0rr0w86]

@simonizeshow at this point would spamming mutilate for 20 energy be better than deadly brew rune? Sure no poisons, but 2x the amount of mutilates due to slaughter in the shadows making mutilate 20 energy. If anyone knows you would which is why im asking

[@ryanhannaford3019]

read the slaughter from the shadow tooltip. says doesnt apply to mutilate.

[@dragosh5996]

Does raiding today and tomorrow mean that the bfd lockout is reseting with the p2 launch? Or you just have multiple characters?

[@guillaumeloriault4074]

Which daggers do you recommend for offhand? 2x slow or slow MH and fast OH? Ty

[@Tw0_Shanez]

Slow/slow

[@nicolasjochem1814]

In the rotation, *always* use envenom as finisher?

[@Tsuyd]

Is it live already or should we wait for tonight (tomorrow, patchday)

[@codystade1805]

are you using double instant poison

[@Nightmare-pj4fg]

Hey just interested if you’re a pvp rogue as well, and if you’re ever going to make a video on pvp tips and runes?

[@joeallen7844]

do you foresee them nerfing mutilate by requiring slaughter from the shadows to get the 40 energy? would it still be viable with a DP/IP applied to weps?

[@intenzityd3181]

Doesn't make sense since it would compete with deadly brew, which is designed to be used with mutilate.

[@thedrunkmanga4610]

Have you confirmed that deep assassination is better than the 50% off hand from combat ?

[@thedrunkmanga4610]

And the 30% crit from backstab *

[@DUD3_BR0]

but did they fix the mutilate animation? If it doesn't look cool, does it really matter? :D

[@czy89]

What dungeon levelling route are you going to be doing as horde? Is it RFK into SM dungeons? I know its awkward as we've not got access to Stocks

[@jacque3427]

for horde imo i would start in lower rfk, mobs are around 25-28 in level and in a group you can easily kill those for good xp. Once you get to level 28-29 you can do the later parts of rfk a lot easier, which are level 30 mobs. I wouldn't go into sm until you are level 33 which is good for lib, gy is not worth the time due to the low mob count

[@jacque3427]

oh, rfk also has some GREAT boes that drop all of the time

[@dkzfootballvideos1837]

How does the dungeon build work when you are questing ?

[@joshuathurgood6120]

Mutilate, deadly brew, BF on cooldown. Few GCDs something is dead

[@AC1D303]

why must my main hand be a dagger ? mutilate scales of backstab scaling but it does not require a dagger.

[@SimonizeShow]

doesn't require a dagger you say? try to mutilate with a sword and let me know what happens

[@JayKay1102]

Thanks for your insightful video :) But I have to be honest, it makes me rather sad. I can finally unlock blade flurry and adrenalin rush and was hoping, that combat rogue finally goes "online" with those talents. And here we are being outperformed by anything mutilate only because that was being buffed (for no reason?) in an absurd way.

[@ryanbennett6801]

Lvl 40 mutilate build - what poisons should i be using?

[@evanm4682]

deadly brew.

[@vladchenkov9215]

Rogue pvp is actually insane now… literally destroying everyone. Been having fun, but no way they are not nerfing us. I feel hunter treatment coming

[@EggG643]

silly question, but when do you use Cold Blood??

[@EggG643]

also, presumably it's generally deadly poison on the off-hand and nothing on the main for wild strikes?

[@joshuathurgood6120]

Use CB on a 5 deadly stack, 5 combo envemon. You use the deadly brew rune for poison, so use a heavy stone or there might be a new bfd stone for OH. Leave MH empty for WS procs. Pool energy before using envemon so you can mut straight after.

[@piga5023]

Hey brother, it's me again. Sadly your discord invitation link is NOT working for me. Expired... neither is it working by copy/paste into Discord Client nor in Webbrowser. Can you send me an unique invite here over comments? I'd love to join. Tyvm!

[@AlanarTansden]

What about a tanking build?

[@august5135]

will mutilate be better than saber slash for questing aswell? saber slash feels really good against tougher enemies

[@WoWSnake1989]

same energy cost, kinda same damage~ & 2cp instead of one

[@knarf427]

If you have a better sword than dagger, use SS

[@RatsoMan20]

For rogue tank im going combat to pick up riposte then sub grabbing ghostly strike and getting setup for more free combo points (45% cance when dodge) getting sheriken toss will be key for aoe threat since blade flurry is to long of a cd for tanking

[@Pelashi]

That sounds REALLY bad. Almost all of the talents in subtlety are useless for tanking (and for pve in general) and the extra avoidance is probably not going to be necessary. Even without main gauche, rogue tanks were already very beefy.

[@RatsoMan20]

@Pelashi I just want more combo points for dungeon tanking in raid won't need it most fights are single target but u get like 1-2 cp before having to tab to next target to get agro making 90% of rogue kit useless just blade dance and slice and dice with no combo points

[@drazenM121]

Great guide, but just one slight change for solo leveling build. Opportunity is kinda bad since it only works if you are behind the target.

[@SimonizeShow]

that is not correct. the tooltip is lying to you.

[@MyLittleTim]

love the hats

[@user-lf3hy7wl3t]

Why are you taking dodge in the dungeon build where you aren't going to be taking hits?

[@SimonizeShow]

well, you'll still get hit sometimes. you gotta pick between gouge, imp ss, and dodge. none of those are good.

[@gankie1956]

GJ BLIZZ... You fking made backstab obsolete... MUTILATE: Damage - (120%MH + 120%OH) + 30 Energy - 40 Combo points - 2 Poison proc chances - 2 Talent Benefits - Backstab Positional requirement - NO BACKSTAB: Damage - (150%MH) + 15 Energy - 40 Combo points - 1 Poison proc chances - 1 Talent Benefits - Backstab Positional requirement - Yes

[@Youre-absolutely-right]

its a seasonal server, not a big deal

[@kirarozu]

Is this just for rogue dps im guessing?