J35 Bonanza Power-On Stall / Spin

J35 Bonanza Power-On Stall / Spin. Some important Lessons in this Review.
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FlyWire is about exploring flight and the freedom this incredible experience brings us on a personal level. Flying has always captured the imagination and excitement of living life to its fullest. Hi, I'm Scott Perdue. In a former life I flew the F-4 and F-15E, more recently I retired from a major airline. I've written for several aviation magazines over the years, was a consultant for RAND, the USAF, Navy, NASA as well as few others, wrote a military thriller- 'Pale Moon Rising' (still on Kindle). But mostly I like flying, or teaching flying. Some of the most fun I had was with Tom Gresham on a TV show called 'Wings to Adventure". We flew lots of different airplanes all over the country. Now with FlyWire I want to showcase the fun in flying, share the joy and freedom of flight and explore the world with you. Make sure you subscribe if you want to go along for the ride!
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[@robertthrailkill1368]

I have a P35 Bonanza, V-tail. If-470 260 hp. Owned for 14 years and 1100hrs in type. About 2 years ago practicing stalls. Decided to try a power-on stall with an instructor. Had perhaps 60% power and planned to put nose down just when plane felt like it would stall. Let me tell you not to do that in a Bonanza. The usual buffet is very brief and plane snapped to the left and went nose down in a heart beat. Holy. Sh-t. So fast and probable got 1 or 2 rotations in less than 5 seconds. Pulled power, pushed yoke and neutral ailerons and did recover easily but I will never do this again in my Bonanza. I can definitely see a full power take off stall being deadly in a heart beat for a Bonanza.

[@mtcarrera]

Yes, yes, yes. Note my own contribution above. To your explanation I would only add to stop the rotation with rudder, step on it, if will.

[@mtcarrera]

For a while I owned a Bonanza of the same series. It was during a period when I was getting about 200 hours of flying time per year, so I was pretty well on top of my game. Not long into my ownership I decided to take her through a stall series at altitude, probably at 5000 feet or above. For power on stalls I recall a significant nose up attitude and probably above half throttle . I'm sure that my ball was centered. With little or no warning, the aircraft broke steeply to the left and entered a spin within a quarter turn. My reflexes served me well: keep the yoke in my belly, stop rotation with rudder, then nose down with elevator and recover smoothly. I did it several times, same result. My training had ALWAYS been to keep the stall going with elevator, to get the rotation stopped, and recover gently enough to avoid overspeed and not trigger a secondary stall. In all cases, I lost five hundred feet or so, maybe more. My first impression of all that was to recognize that Bonanzas happily gave up controlled flight. The break was surprisingly abrupt. I had done countless such maneuvers in a wide variety of Cessnas, Pipers, and other Beechcraft. This stall break, on the other hand, was frightening. I guess that's simply a characteristic of Bonanza wings. Live and learn. A year later I recreated nearly the same scenario with a passenger on board. I was flying formation with a Cessna 182 skydiving plane to my left. As the jumpers got out of the 182 and momentarily paused, the 182 slowed down. I did too and subconsciously added some rudder to keep a clear view of the jump plane. Then I was looking up at the wheat fields, and I won't relate what the passenger said. I had inadvertently cross-controlled the Bonanza very close to its stall speed and entered a spin before I could react at all. BUT, my reactions were perfectly reflexive and recovery was as described above. No harm, no foul. But a flat version of the power on stalls described above, at least insofar as the recovery. It ain't mushing around during slow flight practice where you get half a week of warning and virtually no break. After a lot of thought, I speculated that this characteristic gave hint to a death trap. Picture turning base with a strong crosswind that is now behind you. As you turn final at maybe 400 feet, the crosswind pushes you past the runway centerline. Reflexes are triggered, and in addition to banking back toward the centerline, you add just a little too much rudder, add some turbulence as that crosswind bounces over the terrain, and you are riding a death trap. Cross controlled stall at low altitude. A tiny mistake at the worst possible time, I would argue, in the worst possible airplane. Practice, practice, practice and know YOUR airplane.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Great story, MT, thanks for sharing.

[@thomasturner1099]

This is why I have pilots recover from power on stalls at the first stall indication (usually stall warning horn, 5-7 knots above stall AoA under current conditions including G load), especially when the airplane is in the dirty go-around configuration. Another excellent discussion, Gunny.

[@bonanzaguy1]

Early bonanzas didn't have horns I believe but had a light which you likely wouldn't notice if you're looking outside

[@paulpochan9631]

Thanks for the physical demos on your aircraft..!!!

[@WolfPilot]

Great video Scott! I haven't done any stalls since flight school. I need to fix that.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Yes you do!

[@zidoocfi]

Thanks Scott for the excellent explanation about power being a pro-spin input.

[@FutureSystem738]

Wow, great discussion. I wouldn’t have believed it, but learnt something new after 46 years since I first flew. Thanks Scott, fascinating.

[@treylem3]

Very good advice on how to recover from spins. 👍

[@Joe_Not_A_Fed]

You have a way of cutting rigtht to the meat with your safety vids, Scott. Power on stalls and spins can be pretty darned exciting in a 172. I imagine they get really sporty, really fast, in a Bonanza. I'm with you 100% with the pneumonics...power on stall/spin recovery is not the time or place to be reciting a poem. Thanks, Scott.

[@Clif_Brown]

When I got my PPL in the early 80's we trained on all the stall/spins and practiced them a lot even solo. I added 15hrs of aerobatics to make sure I knew what to do in all unusual attitudes.

[@rinzler9775]

This should be just a mandatory part of any pilot training.

[@jackoneil3933]

Excellent primer on stalls and spins Scott, best I've seen, heard or read and a nice add-on would be some in-flight demos. I also appreciated you mentioning your preference for flow over memonic cues, in a busy or high stress situation I believe flow is the better default and mnemonic cues more suited for lengthy procedural tasks. I was also adverse to power on stall practice and mentioned that to a friend (Carl Deitz) who who did some of the FAA recertification like testing on the twin Comanche. At the time I was flying an old 205hp B35 with the flatter V-tail and Carl insisted that I work out my apprehension about Power-on stalls in the Bonanza, and what Carl had me do was cross-controlled departure stall entry with full Aileron and input and raising the nose until a yaw moment was detected, and then lowering the nose until the yaw stopped, avoiding a stall break. Carl's training point was not to actually perform power on stall, but to emphasize awareness even slight Yaw divergence in departure climb, and make lowering the nose as the preeminent action to advert a spin . As Carl used to emphasize, spin avoidance is foremost a matter of awareness of when you are at risk and taking immediate actions to mitigate that risk, rather than out of unawareness, becoming an inadvertent test pilot. On subsequent flight reviews, I Practiced cross-controlled approach to a departure stall with Carl in a B55, Mooney and Twin Comanche, and from then on, my awareness of Yaw and preparedness to "lower the nose" became second nature. I had a Decathlon for a while, and did departure stall and spin practice with an old AF aerobatic instructor, and on my first attempts I did just what you said, over-pitched and ended up inverted. From then on I became an advocate that any serious pilot get some proper stall stall spin training and recovery training in a real aerobatic aircraft, from a real aerobatic instructor like you Scott, who understands it, and understands how to teach it. Also, a side note on V-tail Bonanza's, and especially the early models with the lower dihedral V-tails. A veteran Bonanza instructor once asked me if I had ever done a forward slip in my old B35 Bonanza, I admitted I as never found a reason to slip a Bonanza, with flaps extended and it was prohibited anyway. He indicated that in an off airport emergency landing I might have to, and I should be familiar with the characteristics. We practiced forward slips with flaps up and extended, and I found that with flaps and gear extended, with even a light forward slip, elevator authority was greatly reduced or eliminated. When I pressed a forward slip beyond the point elevator ineffectiveness, the old B-model abruptly lost all vertical stabilizer control and pitched down nearly vertically, with a simultaneous, rapid and extreme kick back on the yoke that almost knocked the yoke from my left hand. I tried this in a later 'P' model Bonanza with the taller v-stabs and found better control with flaps extended, and experienced no sudden departure from controlled flight in an extreme forward slip.. As such, I came away with a better understanding and respect for why not to slip Bonanzas.

[@dwaynemcallister7231]

I was wondering how a V-tail Bonanza would behave in a spin, thx!

[@n7565j]

My instructor took me out to do some spins b4 he turned me loose... And I'm so thankful he did!!! This was back in the early 90's and even though it wasn't required by the FAA, he thought it could save my life if I ever got in a bad situation out practicing by myself. Should be mandatory training for ALL pilots!!!

[@outwiththem]

Hell no. The fragiles in FAA will have a nervous break down if they do hard maneuvers. Mild Maneuvering Maggots dont want you to learn what they cannot do.

[@virginiaviola5097]

Thank you for what you do Scott. This is invaluable information, and the visual explanation of everything that is occurring on the outside of the plane in a power on stall/spin makes it so much easier to visualise what the plane is doing from inside the cockpit, which really helps to enhance situational awareness and the steps required to recover the aircraft. I think being able to picture in your mind the outside of the plane from the inside of the plane will help to save lives.

[@SVSky]

Fantastic stuff. In beginning aerobatics at our club the instructors will try and let you recover from upset/spins/unusual attitudes power on. Not simple and not always successful, power off you can fly out in fairly short order. The tufted wing is outstanding and settles the debate I think.

[@azcharlie2009]

Isn't the secret to avoiding the spin in a power on stall using rudder to keep the nose straight? Not letting the nose go one way or the other?

[@danholstein411]

Excellent teaching moments as always Scott. Thanks so much for putting all the time and effort into your videos to help us pilots stay safe. You are very appreciated!

[@dwaynemcallister7231]

Really good analysis of a power on stall, far better than when I was getting my PPL. Thx so much. There seems to be two problems in GA under trained pilots and often less than current on top of that. A lot can go wrong with these two factors in place

[@gerardwierenga4154]

BB c

[@markbattista6857]

Morning Scott , this was by far the best analysis I have seen on power on stalls. When I started out in a 150 my CFI a WW2 fighter pilot then on to the airlines was big on stalls , even power on , I enjoyed doing them even knowing the danger albeit having someone like you in case of a spin next to me .My take away is Training Training Training . Thanks

[@katien1684]

Thanks Scott..your presentation was twofold..engage ING and reminiscent of those early training days..I only wish I would of had you as my instructor. Your one of a kind in my opinion..in my mind. Flying with you was fun and exciting!!

[@katien1684]

Another reader was correct..your POWER ON STALL EXPLANATION WAS BRILLIANT

[@markbattista6857]

@@katien1684 Thanks Katie N

[@artswri]

Great presentation thanks much!

[@alandaters8547]

I learned to fly in a C150 in 1969. Not much of a fan of power on stalls (especially in a turn), but it was "mandatory". On one hand I agree- how irrelevant are they to a cautious pilot. BUT- I did have a pretty wild (for me) experience in an AA1 Yankee during a checkout ride. Coming from Cessnas and Cherokees, this was like a sports car. At 5,000 AGL (and gross weight) the instructor told me to do a power off stall. When it buffeted and seemed to stall I added power and dropped the nose to below the horizon to gain airspeed. He thought that I lost too much altitude and said to try it again, but just add power and lower the nose to level. That worked great for about 2 seconds, then BANG- it spun to the left (my first and last "real" spin)-no C150 Cherokee ever bit me like this!. We both applied right rudder and I think I neutralized elevator(already looking at a lot of ground) but left on full power. Spin stopped, leveled out maybe 2,000 ft lower and we both decided I would be flying very conservatively after that! (2 more solo flights after that, partly to "get back on the horse". Lesson from this- a poor recovery from a power off stall in a less forgiving airplane can get you into a power on stall.

[@toma5153]

First time I've seen a tufted vertical fin. Also never thought about lift potential of the VF. A very informative video.

[@StudioRV8]

Hi Scott, can’t tell you how much I appreciate and learn from your videos. I really appreciate all the work you put into them!

[@gtm624]

Thank you so much Scott for such an amazing video (as you always do). I have not done spin training yet. I was taught power to idle, neutral controls, let the spin stabilize before I apply the opposite rudder and slowly pull out of it and bring the power back. You took that and broke it down with such incredible detail and visual representation. Now I understand the aerodynamic principles and the “why” of what is done to recover. The full aft thing is new info and I greatly appreciate any and every minute life saving piece of information you provide.

[@edjarrett3164]

Absolutely one of the best descriptions of spins. I didn’t do spins in flight indoct. I did do many spins in the t37 back in the early eighties. The Bold Print EAC still stays with me today. Working on ppl after not flying for 14 years and want to practice spin training again. It should be part of the ACS, but sadly not yet.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

Most FAA inspectors cannot demonstrate a simple power off spin. Not even on an easy C172 from 7k agl. and wont promote that you learn them either. They can do Mostly Mild Maneuvering instead. Canada, Mexico, Latin America, and Europe, most inspectors know spins. What a shame is that.

[@edjarrett3164]

@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 I think spin prevent should be the highest priority. With experience, spin recovery should be the standard. This really should be a nothing burger for aviators who are willing to learn.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@edjarrett3164 Of course prevention is the most important thing. BUT IT HASNT WORk AT ALL. I think a lot of pilots panic and make mistakes and get into the spin.. And.. Never get out of it.. They keep pulling up in panic.

[@billylain7456]

Scott, I love your videos. I am way old and have always loved things that fly. Childhood dream was to be a naval aviator. Never realized that dream. One thing I have come to realize from watching lots of aviation videos is that Im not near smart enough to have ever become a pilot! Thank you for the videos you post.

[@kevinallen1699]

Well explained, Scott.

[@CliffClover]

Great video, very helpful. I just lost two dear friends to stall/spin.

[@GunniesLetsFlyVFR]

Love the clarity of your explanations thanks.

[@edgarmuller6652]

Thanks for the refresh on stall and spins. The only stall/Spin I did during trading was on a C150 aerobatic. Just like you said, power idle, and neutralize controls. It would come right out. The Bonanza V tail might have a bit more complicated airflow on the tail. It would be really interesting to see it in a video with all the airflow indicators like yours. Great video. Thanks again

[@brucebolla4148]

Nicely done. Best video yet!

[@lucky_one2]

Thanks Scott...need me some upset training!

[@trumpsmessage7777]

Excellent video Scott. I watched it before but needed a second look. Nice teachable situation.

[@johnfitzpatrick2469]

G,day Sir from Sydney Harbour Australia. * Thankyou for the enlightenment of the presentation (position) of the plane structure following impact with terrain at various degrees Power on stall: and recovery I liked your reminder about the rudder being a source of lift and the visual aids (demonstrating relative airflow over the vertical stabiliser and rudder) to cement your point. 🌏🇦🇺

[@williamferguson284]

I just bought a G35 a few months ago. Since I haven't flow for a few years I got my instructor to go with me to pick the plane up and ferry it home. I spent 12 hours (logged) with him learning to fly the V-tail. They are great airplanes to fly and I have been really enjoying mine.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

That is great news! I'm glad you are enjoying the Bonanza!!

[@EricJanOud]

Only other thing I can think of that happened is that the pilot in question was practicing slow flight; not so much power on stalls. It may well have inadvertantly developed into one, but practicing slow flight that has gone bad is i.m.h.o. a realistic option. especially because he was "less current" (and probably "less proficient" because of that), and he went out to do some airwork to re-acquaint himself with the airplane. If you take the region of reverse command a touch too far... Great analysis and aerodynamics explanation, Scott. Thanks for that! :)

[@japayne21]

I learned a lot about The power on stall. I practiced one a week ago.

[@terrancestodolka4829]

Great lesson... What is needed for most pilots should be brought to understand some basic acrobatics and spin training as soon as they get the license to carry passengers! Plan a few more hours in a camp about stopping a spin and some more of the upset training for the low and slow practice, like being in a traffic pattern when it goes bad, and when planning and practice will be the most useful skill to have!

[@lukewarm1217]

That was a great learning lesson for me. Thank you!

[@sha6mm]

I have not done a full power on stall in 35 years ago Bonanza in flight training. What I remember is not only does it happen fast your airspeed goes from stall speed to max speed very fast almost instantly. Stay Safe in that nice looking Bonanza Scott it looks like it should well taken care of !

[@ervincornavaca9575]

Great stuff Scott, thank you and as always….the learning never stops. 👍

[@SimonAmazingClarke]

Wow. Never come across that before. I can see the logic of the aft Elevator for more rudder airflow. Right, I'm off to practice that. On my flight sim.

[@maraleitzen1758]

My instructor was a super high time pilot, and let me tell you, we did spins and recovery till I was blue.

[@suburbangorilla5515]

Great analysis.

[@moleisrich1]

Thanks Scott! Good stuff as always!

[@MichaelLloyd]

Thanks for doing this video. There is a lot of good info presented here.

[@gonetoearth2588]

wonderful video! Awesome discussion..thanks

[@twifosp1]

Very informative. Great airflow videos thanks

[@ronwade2206]

In west Phoenix we flew thousands of hours of RC aircraft, gliders, pattern ships and all kinds of configurations. Our favorite tail feathers were V-Tails!

[@donstor1]

I am with you on actions. I want to memorize what I need to do in a given situation not what the acronym is. Thanks for bringing that up. Great report and breaking this down.

[@nice2care]

Wow, I have never heard of elevator aft in spin recovery before. Thank you so much for explaining.

[@jimhuskyflying]

Excellent video! Thank you.

[@calburnIII]

I’m not usually fond of mnemonics, but I like PARE, mostly because it’s so well known and so important for extricating from a spin in almost any GA airplane. It’s the same steps as you describe, but much better known in the GA community. Power off, Ailerons neutral, Rudder opposite to stop the spin and then neutral when the rotation stops, Elevator forward to break the stall and then gradually back to level off. I suggest that the Bonanza pilot, whether he knew PARE or had any spin knowledge or training at all, undoubtedly panicked and froze when the airplane flipped into a spin. As anyone who has done any spins knows, that first time is pretty scary, even when it’s being demonstrated by a competent instructor. When I was instructing back in the 80s, I had a private pilot freeze at the controls of a 182 when a power-on stall broke into a spin. It was my fault-I’d taught him in his private training to “walk the rudders” (falling leaf) as a means of demonstrating how the rudder retains authority during a stall, even when the elevator and ailerons have lost their authority. We’d done that both power off and power on in a 172, and he had no trouble. After he obtained his private certificate, he wanted to check out in the 182. At altitude, we were doing the usual air work including stalls. I had him do a falling leaf, and he was impressed with the additional authority that the 182’s rudder had compared to the 172’s. I then said not to try doing that power on, because the additional power made it too difficult. I think I said “nobody can do it”, my student said “I bet I can”, and like a dummy, I said “OK, smart guy, try it”. Of course, the deck angle was extreme. As the airplane oscillated to the left, he pressed the right rudder, it oscillated to the right, he pressed the left rudder, and suddenly the airplane flipped over to the left and fell into a spin. Because I’d also taught him spin recovery, I expected him to react, but he didn’t. He froze, still pushing the left rudder and with the yoke still back all the way, with full power. I first tried to talk him out of the spin, but when I realized I couldn’t get any reaction from him, I pulled the throttle off, used all the strength I had to push the opposite rudder, and I had to hit his wrists with my arm to knock his hands off the yoke. I don’t know how many turns, but we lost over 3000 feet, from 11,000’ to below 8,000’ MSL. It was not until we were flying straight and level that he “woke up”-he didn’t remember any of the spinning. So that’s why my guess is that the Bonanza pilot either had no idea what to do, or he simply froze and left the controls however they were when the airplane entered the spin. That the throttle was still at full power supports my guess, since pulling the power is the first step in recovering from a spin.

[@dwaynemcallister7231]

yes , fear is a powerful force and some pilots/people don't handle it so well...thx for your insight.

[@whoever6458]

I just understood so much stuff from this video and I'm not even a pilot. Thanks!

[@user-iw3mr2lv6f]

Great video! Thanks Scott! Your the best. You have proven it again we (me) are always learning. Thanks again you may have saved a life! Maybe mine. Thanks Again👍

[@apolloreinard7737]

very nice coverage

[@andrewmgoss]

That was an excellent visual

[@dcxplant]

Very useful rundown Scott. Thank you. I too, eschew acronyms and mnemonics. Understanding is the key, not following rote acronyms or mnemonics.

[@Matt-rl5oe]

I should add to my previous comment that I learned to fly in a Grumman AA1B… big dashboard placard that says “spins prohibited” Maybe why I didn’t have any spin recovery training? I now own and fly a 172 on floats, and did intend to practice power off and power on stalls… I agree with you about the power on stalls … not very practical… so I’ll not be doing those…. All the same,Thank You Scott for that life saving information I didn’t get in my training!

[@ARFFWorld]

Thank you for teaching me.

[@danholstein411]

Your stuff is great too, buddy!

[@ferebeefamily]

Thank you for the information.

[@scotabot7826]

What a wonderful presentation Scott. It's packed full of very valuable information! I wish I lived closer, because I would love to do some upset training with you. I'll be honest, I've never heard the full aft stick after you pull the power and neturalize/center the ailerons, but after watching the demonstration, it makes perfectly good sense. I assume every aircraft has it's own tendencies, so it may depend on the aircraft your flying? I've always been taught, pull the power, center stick, opposite rudder, then break the stall with just enough elevator.

[@Saltlick11]

Excellent

[@montemenasco8584]

Awesome!!

[@terencetaylor4600]

Thankyou Scott.

[@easttexan2933]

hated power on stalls. scared to death of them but I did em. Never did a spin either. My airplane was not going to get to any angle past 30 degs turn lol.

[@Col-Hogan]

Great information! When I was training for my private, I made it a point to my instructor that I wanted spin training. He was more than happy to do it. He demonstrated one to the right then the left. Then it was my turn. It should be part of PP training.

[@mikemcpherson5550]

I learned how to spin an airplane at 6 years. Really!, you say? Really. My father was a WWII vet and former B-29 pilot amongst 24's 25's and trained in PT-19's Vultees BT-13's. T-6's. On the back steps he set up a seat, stick and pedals for the lesson or lessons...been 66 years. Lesson: Stall, kick left or right and depart..."Pop the stick" full forward and mash the opposite rudder against the spin to stop the rotation...ease it out of the dive into a smooth recovery. Why the comment then? Well, the aft stick thing. I have a CMEI and been a pilot since I was 26. Now 73 and haven't flown for many years but I was taught, never, let me repeat, never, unless in an inverted spin is the stick pulled back."Lost in translation" issue is this statement.... "Pop the stick." What I presume, since Pop left on his final mission long ago, is that what he really meant was, neutalize it from full aft post haste, yet never had I heard of the aft stick technique. Not even in WWII training films. Thanks Scott!! It all makes sense and to quote a famous old Aviation writer, " I learned about flying from that."

[@bobclarie]

Thanks Scott . . . with Respect . . . Bob

[@RunningSwimmingMan]

Tou·ché! “I’m not going to spin one to find out!” LOL!

[@GZA036]

I had never thought of forward elevator as a pro-spin input. The Cessna 172M manual says to hold full aft elevator for the spin entry. But interestingly, if you follow the instructions, full aft elevator is held until just after the opposite rudder is applied. Technically, recovery still starts with IDLE NEUTRAL AFT. "The normal entry is made from a power-off stall. As the stall is approached, the elevator control should be smoothly pulled to the full aft position. Just prior to reaching the stall ''break", rudder control in the desired direction of the spin rotation should be applied so that full rudder deflection is reached almost simultaneously with reaching full aft elevator. A slightly greater rate of deceleration than for normal stall entries, application of ailerons in the direction of the desired spin, and the use of power at the entry will assure more consistent and positive entries to the spin. As the airplane begins to spin, reduce the power to idle and return the ailerons to neutral. Both elevator and rudder controls should be held full with the spin until the spin recovery is initiated. An inadvertent relaxation of either of these controls could result in the development of a nosedown spiral." .......... "Regardless of how many turns the spin is held or how it is entered the following recovery technique should be used: (1) VERIFY THAT THROTTLE IS IN IDLE POSITION AND AILERONS ARE NEUTRAL. (2) APPLY AND HOLD FULL RUDDER OPPOSITE TO THE DIRECTION OF ROTATION. (3) JUST AFTER THE RUDDER REACHES THE STOP, MOVE THE CONTROL WHEEL BRISKLY FORWARD FAR ENOUGH TO BREAK THE STALL. (4) HOLD THESE CONTROL INPUTS UNTIL ROTATION STOPS. (5) AS ROTATION STOPS, NEUTRALIZE RUDDER AND MAKE A SMOOTH RECOVERY FROM THE RESULTING DIVE."

[@EduLei]

Thank you! 🛩

[@susansticazsky9787]

Thanks Scott!!! Would love to see you do this type of in depth analysis on a modern M20P Mooney and other airplanes!

[@GZA036]

Such a great point on on flows/actions vs mnemonics. Implementing that with all students now. IDLE NEUTRAL AFT

[@kristensorensen2219]

Great job!! ERAU 80 CFIA&I ret.

[@garybauerle1214]

Very good

[@pamshewan9181]

I always learn when I watch Flywire

[@shahidahsan6507]

Thanks!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks Shahid!!

[@nigelalderman9178]

I think you'd like the tail of the Zero!

[@johnmajane3731]

My own experience with my F35 I will not follow through with a power on stall . The nose gets to a very high angle of attack and still is not stalling. I tried a few times with an instructor and it just not something I wanted to follow through on. When I instruct in the Bonanza I don't do full power on stalls. You have made good points.

[@bonanzaguy1]

I've owned 3 Bonanzas including a deb and I can't think of any occasion where I got near a power on stall and most of my flying was in the mountains.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I think a power on stall is a worthless maneuver. It is borderline dangerous, in this case it was fatal.

[@GeorgeMWoods]

Kudos to you. I learned something having never really considered what happens if a practice departure stall turns into a spin. Likely I would have reduced power but now I know why that’s a good idea. I find your videos the most instructive of the Dan/Juan bunch. (Dan will give me….for saying that.) One caveat - you could use an editor. There are many grammatical errors - to when you mean too, loose when you mean lose. But, he’ll, you’re a pilot not English teacher! Keep ‘em coming.

[@outwiththem]

I did then even on Tomahawks. Neutral, Push, Pedal, Power. Neutral or release the wheel, Push it then, Pedal to opposite, and power off. Done all in 2 seconds.

[@scofab]

Very well explained. My memory thing is to stomp the rudder on the side the horizon is 'leaking' out of, hence stopping the 'leak'. Your videos should be required viewing for everyone in 'basic' initial training. Thank you.

[@Rodhern]

Depending on aircraft model, configuration and situation stomping the rudder to its stop, if done early, may create a wingdrop on the 'stomped side'. It can be the lesser of two evils, but the action might also (possibly) be futher refined/optimised by less 'hurried' response. [Or I might just have gotten the wrong association from the word "stomp" 😀 ]

[@pittss2c601]

Hard opposite rudder nearly breaks ones head off in a Pitts Special. It pops out immediately. Smooth opposite rudder input even at idle power. No stomping required.

[@bearlemley]

Something interesting I learned years ago is that what is the number of possible different spins there are on an aircraft. Add complexity and the number multiplies to well over a hundred thousand different spins. Think about all the possibilities of changing the longitudinal, lateral and vertical centers of gravity a tenth or half an inch at a time. And in fuel moments for different fuel loads, power settings, rpm settings and flap and landing gear positions. Does a manufacture who must demonstrate recovery in a single engine, explore all of these possibilities? The answer is no they don’t. For one the costs and time required to investigate all the possible spins is prohibitive. The field certification branches know this and will hear arguments from the manufacturer on why 6, 8 or 10 configurations are thought to be the worst and will approve the study to be on that groups. The flight test program might show early on that the prototype to be recovering easily without deploying the spin chute and the amount of required spins can be cut down. By the time type cert comes around, very few spins from the vast possibilities of different configurations have been deeply investigated. It can go the other way where a spin test program can go poorly and drag on for ever. My point is that no one has don’t all the spins in an aircraft. When you spin you very well might be the first. Hopefully your aircraft and the humans on board will be equipped like a well run flight test program with easy egress and parachutes. Even then you will loose now and the. Let remember Art Scholl where the weight and moment of a video camera on a cable added to the list of configurations possible in a pits and one that no one had ever explored before.

[@keepyourbilsteins]

Thanks Scott. This part 103 lunatic really appreciates the lesson. I've got 15+ hrs with CFIs and never learned about this recovery technique.

[@outwiththem]

In Canada and Mexico, they make you do spins BEFORE SOLO. Cant do them?? Good bye. You cannot be a coward pilot there..

[@bellboy4074]

@@outwiththem wtf are you talking about

[@892Idontknow]

I guess I was one of the lucky ones because my instructor did teach me to reduce power. Hope I can pull it off if the time ever comes.

[@daszieher]

This one is really good! Another point to remember, when your anti-spin input is working, i.e. the nose dropping the yaw rate might actually increase momentarily as the masses realign around the spin axis like an ice skater pulling the arms in to increase rate. (actually the axis is relocating but with the same effect) I only really flew gliders, so at least there was no power setting to worry about :)

[@pittss2c601]

I've never experienced that in a Pitts. Hard opposite rudder nearly breaks ones head off. It pops out immediately. Smooth opposite rudder input even at idle power.

[@lessharratt8719]

Aileron into the spin can help. Never hear that though.

[@daszieher]

@@pittss2c601 the Pitts is very "square" with a short fuselage and two wings above and below the longitudinal axis. Picture an aircraft with a longer fuselage and imagine the spin axis varying throughout the spin.

[@pittss2c601]

@@daszieher That aircraft is called an Extra or One Design and they spin beautifully.

[@pittss2c601]

@@lessharratt8719 Aileron into the spin is how I quickly get my Pitts in a spin. It winds up like a top...Very fast.

[@paulwoods4394]

Great video thank you for doing it. I was thinking about a spin accident I witnessed years ago in a Ryan pt-22. I was just learning to fly in a Aeronca and had completed spin training. A older friend at Van Sant had just bought a Ryan pt-22 by older he was 24 I was 14. My Dad was teaching me to fly the Aeronca and he insisted on spin training. Ok back to the Ryan. My Dad’s friend had taught in the Army Air corp in the T-6. Mac was his name. He was also a captain with TWA and owned and flew a Stearman he had just upper to 300hp from 225. Anyway Mac was going to check out Kent in the Ryan. We were sitting on the fence at the Pennsylvania country airport and watched the Ryan take off with Kent in the back seat and Mac in the front. We watched them climb to altitude and do various maneuvers. They did one spin entry and in 3 rotations recovered and climbed up to altitude again. Then they purposefully entered another spin and it kept spinning 5, 6 , 15 rotations and then disappeared behind the trees. Mac & Kent were both killed. We found out later the rudder cable between the front seat and back seat had snapped. Making it such that Mac the instructor had no rudder control. Kent had frozen on the controls with his feet pressed hard against the rudders. Kent had frozen in flight on a number of flights in the Stearman. The both had parachute but Mac turned the fuel off before impact and never bailed. Remember that Ryan was at 45 degrees spinning. Mac had no place to put his feet to push out of the cockpit. The reason I bring this whole traumatic story up was Mac had told me to recover the Ryan pt-22 you need to first stop the spin. Neutral controls and rudder to stop the spin. Then push the nose down getting airflow over the wing. That unless you stopped the rotation first in the Ryan it would not recover from the spin.

[@outwiththem]

Good to rehearse the recovery on the ground on a rotating chair, etc or sim. Many have frozen feet and cant recover. They freeze on controls. I used to fly to Van Zant from Caldwel Airp. in NJ.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Paul, that's a heart breaking story.

[@paulwoods4394]

@@FlyWirescottperdue yes very traumatic and I’m 68 years old now and remember that crash in 1968 like it was yesterday. Mac Robert McCarthy was his name had over 16,000 hours in everything from B-24 - the T-6 to the F-84 the Connie and was Captain in the 727 that a broken rudder cable on a Ryan pt-22 was hard to accept. Maintenance maintenance! He was my Dad’s best friend and that day my Dad had to tell his wife what happened. But it really stuck with me especially in that Ryan that unless you stopped the spin first then popped the stick it wasn’t going to stop spinning.

[@paulwoods4394]

@@outwiththem Kent froze on the stick and rudder giving more tension on the rudders and rudder cable. In the Ryan the instructor sits in the front seat and it is an open cockpit making communication between the student and instructor harder than say a Cessna. I don't know if the rudder cable itself snapped but I think most likely the added pressure on the cables perhaps caused the rigging on the rudder pedal come apart.

[@outwiththem]

@@paulwoods4394 My spin and aerobatics instructor told me years ago.. Its is not maintenance at all. It is that scared or too coward people tend to push one or even both feet away and freeze that way in panic. The other non freeze feet CFI or pilot pushes one pedal to stop the spin, while the dam coward feet froze is pushing the pedals very hard in panic. and that counter force breaks the mechanism, like levers attaching the cables. Right-handed panic people will push the left pedal more. The CFI will push the right pedal hard to recover. Counter rudder, that will break the rudder levers He calls that .. The Panic Pedal Pilot.

[@paulshinn5394]

Had a flight instructor do full power stall when I was learning to fly and (yes I had to recover it a PA28-151because he did not know how )I did power all the way back controls neutral full rudder to beak spin then elevator pulled back then the airplane was flying again olé yes was praying to God like no other less than 200ft from hitting grown It sounds like I did not do it quite right but it worked this is 100% good solid INFO You are at the top of your game thank You.

[@jamestharp7880]

Great video Scott! I have taught spins in 5 different aircraft and owned two different V tail Bonanzas. When I did my last flight review with my BPPP instructor he told me that spins in a V tail Bonanza are mostly un recoverable. Surely when they were certified they had to do testing. I’ll bet that when they changed the V tail to be more vertical that they RE tested spin recovery. Does anyone out there know what happened?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

It passed the spin certification requirements. I’ll ask around.

[@fhuber7507]

Here's a place RC models teach you to do it wrong. The models have so much power, the prop can just pull the airplane out of the spin on neutral controls. Many models can pull up and out of the flat spin by using power. (impossible for full scale) While the models can teach you some good things, they can teach you bad habits.

[@brycemoseman9939]

Without even watching the video, I think keeping the plane coordinated and flying by the numbers, and seat of the pants can leave you a good margin of safety. Now onto the video 🙌

[@markmuir7338]

So far as I understand, many GA aircraft will recover from most spins by holding neutral controls and leaving power where it was - you just wait it out. This applies to aircraft that were designed to have the wing tips stall long after the majority of the wing has stalled. Cessna sales guys like to tell you this on trial flights. It's not the best technique though! I think the reason that adding power brings RC planes out of the spin - even when the full-size aircraft it's based on won't - is the extra slipstream over the tail increasing the lift of the vertical stabilizer, which neutralizes the yaw. I'd like to hear any other theories though.

[@fhuber7507]

@@markmuir7338 Holding neutral means knowing where neutral is. The models have an advantage. Let go and the sticks spring center. The servos drive the controls to neutral. The servos and controls are sized to overcome ANY potential in flight forces and push the control to the ":commanded" position (even if the "command" is letting the stick self-center) The model "knows" where neutral is. As stated in the video, the aerodynamic forces, will try to move the rudder into the spin. It's not as easy to KNOW you have the rudder centered as it is to just push it on over opposed to the spin. But the real key to powering out of a spin with RC is the tremendous power : weight advantage. Piper Cub appx 0.3 : 1 power : Weight. C-152 appx 0.5 : 1 Average RC model 1.0 : 1 to more than 3.0 : 1. The model isn't depending on airspeed to drive enough air over the rudder to straighten it out. The prop is pushing enough air back to do it.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Actually, I think it is more likely due to polar moments of inertia. The center of the spin axis versus the CG and the location of the power thrust line.

[@fhuber7507]

@@FlyWirescottperdue we push CG forward compared to general aviation aircraft on trainers, but far aft of what is considered safe for general aviation when setting up extreme aerobatic models. It's hard to compare inertia moments of the wings because they vary considerably based on construction. We mostly see a difference in rotation rate being slightly slower with heavy sheeted and fiberglassed wings, but still immediate end to a spin with power on. Pusher designs almost always require power off for spin recovery when tail planes are not in the prop wash. EDF (electric ducted fans, simulating jets, but with tremendous motor torque) also need power off for spin recovery. These just spin faster with power as nothing is in the path of the high speed air exiting the thrust tube. And the thrust is applied behind both CG and center of drag. I have a pusher flying wing that when spinning inverted, apply full power and it spins so rapidly it climbs. Turn off the electric motor to get out of the spin. The power to weight seems to be the most important factor for powering a model out of a spin with a conventional designs. (prop in front, main wing with CG 5% to 46% MAC of main wing + tail planes significantly smaller than main wing) More power, pushing more air over flying surfaces breaks the stall and it straightens right out, accelerating in whatever direction the nose is pointed. (Including straight up.) Our model prop diameters tend to be smaller than scale when using "glow fuel" power, but can be at scale for gasoline and electric powered models. (Ground clearance generally prevents oversized) I like discussing similarities and differences of aircraft types and effects of changing scale.

[@shenandoahhills7263]

Scott, excellent as usual. In the late60's there were a number of Twin Commanche accidents which were attributed to stall spins during training. The aircraft received a bad reputation as a result. Likely these occurred during single engine training. Have you looked at the departure and recovery scenarios for light twin aircraft?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I have. Not sure I want to do a video on it.

[@carlyeiter9263]

@@FlyWirescottperdue I wish to thank for your sharing of insights into flight and giving to both novice and masters ever better ways to keep attuned to the simplicity and complexity of air and mechanical engineering of aircraft that has given our species to arise from the surface( dry, wet or frozen) in objects built to achieve movement from one point to another within the limitation of awareness perceived by hope, faith and trust of those who want to make it possible for people to fly. Errors were and still are possible, yet, lessons are learned and when becoming known allow great achievements to be had for all future craft to come. Thank you for sharing your concerns and wanting to assist all who wish, want and do fly to do so as responsible and safely as they can. I hope you will continue this great calling you have and those who watch your videos will benefit most wonderfully!!!!!

[@davidpearn5925]

Could you explain that visual using the V tail configuration which seems more compromised ?

[@MrDucatizombie]

Scott, as always, I learn so much from your videos. I fly a J35, and I am a KZbin contributor. I'm not sure how your extensive knowledge helps me understand this accident because most of the information and demonstration relate to conventional tailed aircraft. As you said you are not sure how any of this relates to the V-Tail. Clearly, the down input won't affect airflow on a vertical surface because there isn't one. My first response in my airplane, would be to pull power and neutralize control input. After that I would fly the airplane based on how it responds. Your thoughts?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

There is some vertical in a vtail. It passed spin tests using the same recovery method. It’s not magically different. The vtail mixes pitch and rudder inputs. It’s all you have.

[@nappozulp4199]

Love the videos. I’m a 300 hour new pilot and remember instructor saying not to practice stalls unless I’m with an instructor. Just wondering if that’s generally recommended?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Generally, I would say no. I practice them all the time.

[@carlosl1895]

👏👏👏

[@imaPangolin]

So you are so correct that we don’t teach this way. What about a T tail? Would you go forward instead of aft to increase airflow over the rudder?

[@genec9560]

Ok, idle, neutral, got it. Then unload yoke (forward) if starting to enter the spin? But if in the developed spin pull the yoke back/aft to make rudder more effective? I’m just curious, not going to try any of this in an airplane without an instructor. Just want to clarify; please correct if I have an incorrect understanding. Great channel, look forward to your episodes!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

There is the stabilization phase in a spin, plenty of time to do it right, not enough time to do it over. Idle/Neutral/Aft, Rudder Opposite spin, stick just forward of Neutral, rudder neutral, recover from the dive. Thanks for watching!

[@dougfrench1886]

No mention of the yoke upgrade? BTW really like your page.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

What difference would a dual yoke have made in this accident?

[@dougfrench1886]

I hope nothing. If installed properly.

[@FougaFrancois]

Would be nice to redo a video with the V tail configuration explanation