Jacob Collier - The Methods of Making Music

Today’s guest is Multi-Instrumentalist and Vocalist, Jacob Collier! You’ll recognize him from tracks such as “All I Need,” “The Sun In Your Eyes,” and “In Too Deep.” His music spans across several styles and genres as Jacob looks for new and interesting ways to create. On this episode we talk about how digital instruments have changed how we make music, how physical instruments can have the most impact, and how sometimes the best instrument is the one you can execute from idea to concept in the least amount of time. We also talk about how the piano only has so many notes and how to capture the creative spark and feed it into something larger.
You can submit your questions to Ben here: www.speakpipe.com/BenFolds

[@gregonline6506]

How on earth could it happen, that it took YT so long to put me this on my screen???! Love you boys, made my day. As a psychologist (clinical) and (amateur musician) I am very interested in learning processes. So Jacob´s idea about the musical learnig curve "triades, cromaticism, microtonal (just intonation)" makes a lot of sense to me. As a 58 old guy I am slowly advancing from triades to the next step... But remembering, that Jacob spend two years of his early childhood to try to get some music out of a violin, while at this age I was fooling around my parents piano, there might be a point: Jacob´s brain was "early wired" to just intonation. And Ma Suzi doing her music for sure helped to develop exactly this world. Just an idea. Love you guys.

[@heronkite]

I've never heard a musician half my age talk about music with such eloquence and empathy in equal measure. This interview teems with insights about creativity that can be applied to life itself

[@nathanreiber6819]

Dude said "stuff is moorish." What the actual fuck?

[@maxwellbellew5857]

I can't believe these aren't more popular. Amazing podcasts and guests, and you can't get this kind of discussion anywhere else!

[@KrystofDreamJourney]

63k views as of October 2023. Out of almost 8 billion people living on this planet 🌎 with over 2 billion having permanent access to the internet and understanding English language. Jacob’s musical style and depth is reserved to musically educated individuals, apart from his initial “singing heads” videos that attracted broader audience due to their novelty. Don’t expect more...

[@lifeismusic9411]

Seriously great podcast. My favorite thing about Jacob is that he knows so much, but he’s not elitist about it. He wants others to enjoy music whatever choices they make. Thanks for pulling this together Ben!

[@nils8584]

musicians mental health has been almost taboo.., for him its the first and foremost: that it connects to a good life. what a champion!

[@paulkorchok6567]

Oh man two of my favourite musicians shooting the breeze. Just perfect. Thankyou Ben for asking all the right questions. Was amazing to sit in on this conversation.

[@catherineono3387]

I have no idea what Jacob is talking about but I feel his enthusiasm and his heart.

[@hope42]

Jacob is so talented and I understand his brain is overwhelmed which overwhelmed us listeners as well. I want more of his simple pure voice. I would love to hear him sing Hallelujah like Buckley and Leonard Cohen. Or Raise Me Up like Josh Groban. Or go crazy with some Billy Joel songs and some Elton John songs in all their pureness of a cover. No autotune just his pure voice. It's almost like he's bored with his voice but us humans are not bored with his pure voice. His pure voice is better than autotune. I think pure live real voices will win over AI.

[@singit3630]

I feel like I'm gonna wake up and say I dreamed there was a podcast with Ben and Jacob in the same creative space!!! 🤯

[@johnstillwell4353]

Bill Champlin told me to check out Jacob the night before last as I was telling him how much I enjoyed his vocal arrangements on his last album and he said "Check Jacob out" and I did and I would love to have a theory conversation with him. I play improvisational jazz and to me it's the art of correcting mistakes.

[@rmac1042]

Ben, please don’t be annoyed, but this is the first time I’ve had a tiny access to you to ask a question... First, I’m an 81 year-old jazz pianist and classical and jazz composer. Anyway, I’ve been a loving fan of Pentatonix since the Sing-Off. My question is have you been surprised over the years to see how they’ve grown, or did you suspect PTX would gain the prominence they have gained in 12 years? I’m sorry to throw this out there now; it’s just that I foresaw no other time. I know it’s in opportune, because I consider Jacob Collier the Mozart of our time! Simply put-despite his objections, he is an absolute genius. I am a Bill Evans-Keith Jarrett type harmonicist and I’ve loved how Jacob has expanded the harmonic language so magnificently! Not to mention his use of quarter-tone/microtonal writing into pop music! Let me apologize again for introducing the PTX subject! I’m here for the first time and I’m enjoying this very much!

[@Ozymandi_as]

I hope Ben sees your comment - however, I suspect he's not paying much attention to responses to videos he released more than a year ago. I suggest you try reposting to something he's just uploaded.

[@stuartrogers6778]

Amazing conversation. Just checked out "All I Need" and can recommend comparing 1::22 and 2::19 in that song to see just how much Jacob raised the second chorus. 🤯

[@popnutty]

@21:17 .. Ben's laughter signifies the fact that he totally gets it! It's really fun to have conversations with like-minded indivuduals on or about music , or "theory" ... "by heart" music is joyous and wonderful as it is But then when you analyze it and rationalize it like in math or scientifically it takes into whole nother world understanding! Analysing frequencies😂. I think most "qualified"and well skilled-educated musicians can agree whole-heartedly with these two! Ben is obviously a Legend in his own right , and let us not forget about the other two!🫠😉🎶🎶

[@jrg1121]

What a privilege to get to hear this conversation! So inspiring.

[@jrbergsten]

Just happened across this. Thoughts: If you want to understand perfect intervals look up the Pythagorean comma. If you want to understand piano temperament (each note is a 12th root) look into Bach’s Well Tempered Clavichord which are two sets of pieces in every major and minor key written to prove it could be done. Wendy Carlos was messing around with different temperaments 60-ish years ago. Look up Carlos Alpha. Fretted instruments typically follow “piano” tuning whereas those without including the voice tend toward perfect intervals if by themselves. Basically the ear listens logarithmically so aliens might not get our music at all.

[@chrisa0001]

The bit about “external voices” reminds me of Nobel prize winning subatomic physicist Richard Feynman’s book “What Do You Care What Other People Think?” Ignoring or shedding external opinion seems key to the best creativity.

[@crismatheson6187]

Love you guys...great show...very enlightening

[@iocantokg]

Our modern day Mozart. Genius!

[@ElwoodSharit]

When Jacob starts talking about messing around with different tunings, it resonates with me in a big way. I'm not even remotely a musician of any sort, but I love music and I find sound fascinating. I love to mess around on my guitar and often I would try to tune it by ear but would end up spending literal hours honing in what felt like a perfect sound to me. Then I'd go to play the open strings or a chord and it would sound completely off from anything normal, because the intervals just don't line up the same when the tuning is like that. I would love to just sit in room with Jacob and sit around tuning instruments for hours. But a certain someone in my house hold would often come up to me and say "yknow, you really shouldn't just tune and untune those things, they're not meant for that." And while they're right, it's what I loved to do. I don't really do it much anymore or much of anything with music, but this made me think of that and I really miss that. Also sort of related to the video, when they talk about finding the "edge" of your capabilities. For a long time I had a big difficulty understanding sound in a "mental image" sort of way, but after learning higher level maths I was able to internalize that notes are just specific frequencies and I got a really good 2D image of sound in my head. But the edge for me, is that I'd really love to understand sound as a 3D concept, as it really exists as. How it interacts with the surroundings and itself. Fluid simulations have helped with this but I still don't quite get it. For instance, I don't understand why a guitar is guitar shaped and what that does for the waves exactly, what shapes they take on IN the body of the instrument and how they are shaped as they leave it or how both of those things interact with each other AND the vibrations of the strings themselves just in the open air. It's a lot to think about, and maybe it's not possible to have a "sonic vision" so to speak, but I'd really like to try.

[@velvitjonze]

love both your work

[@dardhadard837]

Man, if the moment of what I felt after 20:29 were extended for like 20 more seconds, I'd be crying. Also I'd be a dinosaur from all the goosebumps! J.C rocks 🤘

[@erinsheahogan804]

Beautiful. Thank you both 🚀

[@tristanpaxton51]

Great conversation. Two geniuses

[@sneetchw]

Two of my favorites!!! Thank youuuuu !!! ❤️❤️❤️

[@KalebPeters99]

I would watch many more hours of this. Bloody brilliant conversation lads. Thank you 🙏

[@Dylanthestudent]

This is amazing! Thanks for sharing

[@dancollinsandapiano]

What a blessing, this conversation. 🙏🏻❤️

[@floralemmens]

Absolutely great video👌🏼

[@SoundandRhythmstudio]

I enjoyed this conversation. Thanks.

[@lottafinskas]

Thank You! LoVe this!

[@paulcharlesworth9114]

How have I've missed these? Fabulous content. Intelligent, challenging, inspiring conversations. Subbed.

[@Karlfalcon]

Two of my favorite musical worlds collide! Love it!

[@patcalderontello5581]

insane masterclass

[@phillippowell7905]

I could watch them talk about music all day. Amazing video, thanks.

[@DrewWillson]

i taught Jacob how to say "hello everyone" in Thai language before his first concert in Bangkok Thailand and he picked it up so quick (no surprises). Thai is a tonal language and learning it has helped me a lot musically!

[@fetakatsu]

my goodness. such a high quality conversation. so deep! thanks for sharing.

[@SpiramusPresents]

The way podcasts on every topic should be!!!!! Thank you!!!

[@georgetaylor3126]

Two brilliant musical minds, this was fantastic 🙏

[@oscargill423]

I'm honoured to learn that Jacob considers microtonality, a subject I've looked into extensively, his "edge". He has gifted me the certainty that I know of things that he doesn't. This is by no means to downplay the things he knows that I don't; they far outweigh the things I know that he doesn't. It's just comforting to know that this incredible musician that I've idolised for years isn't completely out of reach.

[@pirindolo5160]

Woow.. a real luxury to witness this talk. I feel grateful. Thanks to both

[@shanefiddle]

Wow, great show

[@kirsten7152]

I loved this!

[@EannaButler]

Loved this! Wonderful... Easy sub, for me! Thanks

[@PTS74]

Incredibly informative and inspiring, thank you Ben & Jacob!

[@Mind_Body_Music]

Much love

[@harriereducation]

I was sitting still pencil trying to write my first song, I jotted the words to "Not the Same After That" on the opposite page and it all started to flow. "The Grace of Mermaids" is now finished. Thanks, Ben!

[@therealrussellsmyth]

Best interview of JC yet. Serious kudos Mr Folds , big admirer of you

[@yogawithlisasxm5429]

Thank you Jacob and Ben this writing idea will really help me. ❤.

[@christianefleurant7089]

Oh what a treat ! This exceptional conversation between two unique human beings brings me hope and courage......I may teach again....? Thank you from Montréal, Canada.

[@chrisa0001]

Amazing how Ben Folds manages to very effectively tie the end of the conversation, as far afield as it goes, back to the beginning. His concept of the universality of dichotomies is pretty astounding.

[@MsCarmenFree]

Just stumbled onto this. Great interview! Such good chemistry and coming together from different places to honor the 'edge'. Love this, want more all the time, every day. Lessons for living a creative life and music. ❤ 😅

[@soulscape5083]

Jacob singing the real third was really something!

[@richardhunt809]

Great conversation

[@melaniegillespie7598]

Jacob: re All I Need: I adore that second chorus boost of pure incandescence and heard it and more importantly, FEEL IT! This song is consistently in my top ten repeating playlists. You’re fabulous! Thank you for doing these kinds of chats, they’re super nourishing to steep in and also amazing to hear how similar our experiences of our creative outputs are with totally different media.

[@mystacon]

I have no idea what either of you are talking about but I love you both.

[@patrickmaynard7553]

31:43 - immediate evocation of, let's say, a Detroit neighborhood in August 1979. Cicadas buzzing, teenagers going by on bicycles, 80% humidity, kids getting ice cream at the corner store ... lovely.

[@fiddlestix3025]

This was so super interesting, again. I think I’ll have to watch this a few more times-. And the thing with intonation: as a string player, for me it’s an eternal source of puzzlement, a fascinating journey of constant adjustment depending on the piece, the key, the mood, and who I’m playing with. And woe if it’s a piano… 😉

[@Roebey]

there's not a single interview where jacob has a piano at his disposal where he won't do the whole "the piano is out of tune, actually," i just think it's so funny

[@wizofe]

But this piano is out of tune even I can hear that and I don’t have a perfect pitch 😂

[@fatribz]

"taking a leak, there" that section was a gnarly modulation in the video itself! around 37:00 where he started talking about recording to tape and lacking space, the time gap and then just dropping into the overhead key view to explain better what was going on. that felt so jarring yet welcoming and comforting. exciting video thangs to go with the music convo. thank ye

[@mrfish4lyfe]

what a glorious treat for the theory nerds. thank you !

[@littlespiral]

AMAZING

[@CharlesK441]

42:44 Jacobs tone sounded right to my ears. 😊

[@sauskeuzumaki121]

I think the pivoting he is talking about makes a lot of sense in terms of thermo. I've also been thinking for a while about this same kind of structure being applied to thermodynamics, and that the reason entropy always increase yet for a catalyst we can reduce a rxn, by "reducing the understanding of the pathway" by considering which pathway may, at the smallest scale, be simultaneously entropically equal. At that point, the pivot from a flat note alludes to the shifting of the overall harmonic pathway. (or in my example, occupies the vacant site presented by the catalyst, at which point electron density may "pivot" mid path yet in our numerical system the product alludes itself to remain in the same lane). just an idea of course, but jacob's approach is really refreshing to me because at least it discusses "where to go from an edge".

[@seancregomusic]

Around 13:19 - YES YES YES!! In music school, the same thing happened to me 30 years ago. For me, though, it was the flute studio. I would have to accompany all of the flute students and their 20th Century French flute sonatas with a week of notice, and the studio directors would have the nerve to get upset with me that I couldn't learn it in time. I, too, would just look at shapes and fake it, and the piano professors told me I did the best legit fake job ever, and they actually commended my true skill in being able to do it (they weren't being sarcastic). The same thing happened when I had to learn a modern wind quintet for a concert. I faked the whole thing, and it was so convincing that another piano prof asked how I learned something to wild and difficult so quickly. 😀

[@entarimador]

Great subjetc the microtonal stuff. I think it's present in, say, string quartets, choirs, or actually any sung part, specially in styles like flamenco, or other types of folk music (Indian, Turkish, African...), but also in blues, slide guitar, a double bass in a jazz band, or a big band! It's just the microtones are used either in a melodic way, or in a harmonic situation but just in one key at a time rather than modulating... To hear microtonal modulation would be very interesting! I'll check out the second chorus in "All I need". I was surprised Ben Folds didn't freak out about it, since it must be the only piece of music that modulates a quarter step up in the world!

[@stephenweigel]

The fact that you guys are talking microtones is SO exciting!!! :) if you’re curious about what modulations in microtones sound like, I’ve got lots of covers using alternative tuning systems on my channel (like Bridge Over Troubled Water)

[@whycantiremainanonymous8091]

29:00: You should listen to how people speak in Finland, especially outside the big cities. It's monotonous enough to put you to sleep! (Of course they have rhythmic diversity and other ways to keep each other awake 😃).

[@LilieFu]

New subscriber here :) Love your channel!

[@anonymous_friend]

My favorite note is B#

[@LukeTheringMusic]

Oh heck yeah.

[@mjpaynewales]

When Jacob talks about how the minor is the inverse of the major, perhaps our vocal cadences do partly explain the corresponding emotional response. If a decending vocal cadence is generally sad/negative and rising generally happy/positive. Maybe that feeling of a minor chord being a decent from the major root is triggering something, the same as when we speak. Maybe something like that also helps explain why Indonesians understand the Gamelan, perhaps their vocal cadences have evolved in a way that is relfected in that instrument.

[@rogerramjet6615]

I think that the reason augmented chords sound unstable is because it doesn't contain the perfect 5th which is central to both the overtone series and the inverted overtone series.

[@Samuel-sg2iv]

53:38 to 54:33 So true i've been struggling with that this year a lot

[@Earth_to_Kensho...ComeInKensho]

Holy Sh*t! Ben Folds! And Jacob is just amazing! I discovered him through Becca Stevens.

[@johnstillwell4353]

Jacob, I hear a lot of jazz guys talk about hitting chord tones and having target notes and to me that makes no sense. If I'm in a jazz combo, the rhythm section is covering the root, third, etc. so why would I want to bore everyone by doubling up those notes? Nice show.

[@mugglywumps5408]

I hope "Jacob's Edge" is the name of his next album

[@chillwalker]

said it before: You got me believe in musicmaking against the ableton template loop beatmaking generation again ;-)

[@donaldschaff8707]

How bout this system 1st octave normal C toC 2nd octave 1/4 step higher C to C next octave 1/8step and so on ? Add alot more keys gradually getting smaller and smaller intervals after 3or 4 whole tone octaves then what partial intervals would have greatest relationships?

[@JoyfulAweMusic]

Ben, when I hear the first vocal line of Jackson Cannery (STOOOOP THE BUS), it sounds so wonderfully imperfect (probably microtonal). But it just works so well - it's the perfect jarring but satisfying opening to a record. Do you remember thinking about that?

[@rossjlennox]

I know exactly what you mean - even after listening to that song dozens of times, the opening vocal always catches me slightly off guard. I don’t think it’s microtonal though (not intentionally at least)… The opening piano chord is (I think) a Gm/C and the vocal is an F#, making it kinda a GmM7/C. I agree, it’s a really jarring sound that works perfectly to set the tone for the sentiment of the song - just one of many examples of Ben’s harmonic genius (imho).

[@samijarvinen1585]

Reading Oliver Sacks (Musicophilia) woke me up to the haunting issue of whether many people are tone deaf. Ben and Jacob's optimistic take on this is quite inspiring - even if people can't reproduce pitch in tune, they're still impacted differently by a major chord than by a minor chord, ergo, on some level they hear it. Jacob goes on (29:00) to point out that completely tone deaf people wouldn't be able to distinguish between a monotonous and a more tonally expressive spoken phrase. Case in point - studies show that perfect pitch is far more frequent in populations whose mother tongue is a tonal language (e.g. Chinese) than in populations who speak a language in which pitch has no impact on the meaning of words.

[@LeonardoBatini]

Cool concept, interesting to hear such different vibes on the same lyrics. keep up the good work!

[@robbrill942]

good lord, two peas in a pod. I loved this podcast

[@Danocaster214]

Going 14 cents flat every chord change is exactly why choirs go flat. The challenge as a chorister is to sing a different E in a C major chord and an A minor chord.

[@willschifrin7767]

What is the difference between stacatto and flatatto?

[@ChristianNally]

With the microtonal stuff, why do we cling to the notion of a key at all? Wouldn't a root note alone suffice? So... move up to the (real) third... then adopt that as a new root note, but from there (or any root) you've got an infinite number of notes to choose from when you're picking your intervals.

[@TheKlistrian]

Them talking about thirds made it clear to me why I always tune the B string abit lower on guitars when I "quick tune" them, since I often tune from a G chord. Thanks for a great podcast!

[@aaronlewis7182]

This is BANANAS!! Please do it again, but let us see your hands?.......LOL!

[@TimothyShorMusic]

wow!!! pull my hat down

[@mekosmowski]

I feel judged early in "it's so easy to be lazy" regarding the use of sample libraries. I'm doing electronic rendering as my final product.

[@Edgarbopp]

Jacob is a really excellent example of how good humans could be.

[@SolTransition]

“We (musicians) look at him like where the fuck did he come from?” Hahahah

[@kamiel79]

I know what the edge is... JC playing a concert with Bono :P

[@MKD371]

I thought music from India, uses quarter tones tying in with raga scales, the whole raga concept is based on rhythmical structures based around microtonal and quarter tonal music.

[@kamiel79]

instruments that "rot like food"... it would be awesome to hear JC collaborate with a food flutist :)

[@chrisa0001]

About “tone deafness” of ppl in general… a better term might be “tone catholicism” - that is, many or most people can’t identify tones, and that leads to no *preference* of tones, as opposed to no *sensitivity* to tones. It’s not that people can’t hear pitch, it’s that they don’t *really care* what pitch is (as long as there *is* pitch). But someone like Collier *does* hear, and *does* quite specifically care about what the tones are.

[@gil-evens]

51:00

[@ichdiewurst6153]

55:00 this is just a great exercise to do with someone who is close with you. and maybe probably swap papers instead of burning it. 😅

[@timangus]

I clicked the like button, and now there are 442 likes. 😎

[@LesterBrunt]

They kinda have a blind spot for how much of how we experience music is culturally dependent. Minor sounds sad to us because we grew up hearing sad songs in minor. In other cultures, even our own at different times, have completely different descriptions to certain sounds. That is not to say those experiences aren’t real, just good to know it is not an actual quality of music but of culture.

[@zachrobinson7347]

That is not true at all

[@LesterBrunt]

@@zachrobinson7347 It certainly is. Also next time you disagree with something, which is totally fine, make an actual argument. That way we can have a discussion.

[@codygrengs6405]

it should be mandatory to have a real upright piano in every coffee shop lol

[@MiloMusx]

Ayye