JADGE!!! Slow play, Penalties & Tournament Policy feat. Josh Bovarnick! | Heart of the Cast #32

[@chrispalmer2178]

Respect to Josh for holding that camera for the entire episode. Arms of steel.

[@yusuff_il_paninaro]

He also didn't Blink or breathe, which means all ygo judges are actually robots made by Konami.

[@Shuckyh]

I feel like josh is staring into my soul and judging me.

[@colossaldonut5190]

It's the look you get when you play into the imperm column.

[@EliDSage]

JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJSJAJAJAJA

[@ERRandDEL]

@@colossaldonut5190 it's the last thing they would expect, therefore, it is not a set imperm (he would go on to be imperm'd many more times)

[@spicymemes7458]

Total Reddit mod evergy

[@bennylopez8128]

Hahahahaha! Best comment!

[@Lich_V.]

I know this episode is about judging... but why is Josh judging my soul?

[@pableitor2009]

The problem with slowplays is that it is subjective and some judges are just not aware of how hard a situation can be. I got a slow play once because I was facing a full tearlament board and in my hand I had sphere mode and extrav. I though "okay do I try to use extrav first and see if it goes through or uses one of his two negates on it and I don't need to sphere it or drop the sphere on all the negates and keep extrav for next turn", check their GY to see what toadally could return to hand, and as soon as I pick my cards back up I got handed a slow play warning. The reasoning "I didn't perform an action in the last 30 seconds". And this was game 1 of the match, after my opponent comboed for 15+minutes, I had literally no reason for slowplaying. Yet the judge was adamant into issuing the slowplay. Also I heard that judges are encouraged to issue a slowplay per tournament, which would explain this stupid ass slowplay warning, but it's also a stupid thing to begin with so...

[@PerfectChaos7]

Since using a single die to represent multiple counters isn't allowed with the reasoning that the indicator could easier change if knocked over, one alternative for using a single thing to represent multiple counters that doesn't have that issue would be using coins (such as real money) that have an unchanging number on them. You'd still need multiples of them sometimes, but you can represent 12 counters with 10 + 1 + 1 coins instead of using 12 individual counters, which is an improvement. Anyway, I would love to see Josh Bovarnick return again, since there seems to be a lot more policy questions that he can answer to inform the general playerbase of proper gameplay rules and regulations.

[@38YubelMaster1]

Great episode, defiantly needs a part 2, especially since you guys forgot to get back to the topic of "he said she said" and what judges should do in that situation.

[@driptcg]

Great episode, would love to see more topics with Judge Josh

[@AshBash798]

I remember hearing about the call in which Josh almost ruled incorrectly. The player in question making what seem to be unnecessary plays was trying to draw into ghost mourner and moonlit chill. The player’s goal was draw said card and then use Zealantis’s effect to banish and special summon. Then on summon the player would chain one Princess to pop the opp’s monster and then chain 2 mourner to negate so that on resolution the opp would take burn damage in time

[@aldenespineli3428]

Really great episode. We need a part 2 of this.

[@juliotorres5103]

For the record, I was one of those Yu-Gi-Oh Duelists being ignorant as described by Bovarnick, Josh during the video 26:30. I went to a YCS (2015/2016) without knowing anyone who plays Yu-Gi-Oh! but I attended the event with someone who new the game better than I. I knew about Yu-Gi-Oh! (tcg) as I was a returning Duelist having played regularly scheduled weekend local tournaments throughout Yu-Gi-Oh! (tcg)'s release in the USA which amounted to 2 or 3 consecutive years and additionally I played during the next consecutive (2) years though I gradually played less often. So, now I may say when I went to the YCS (2015) I saw the judge and I asked few questions about my opponent's effects and my effects interactions and afterward I was being told about ruling(s) which upset me more than it upset my opponent. Eventually, I may have dropped out of the tournament and gratefully I spoke to the head judge and I told the judge(s) I was to ignorantly playing but I confessed after round 1. I just quit. I played maybe the 2nd round or the end of the 1st round as a courtesy to the Duelist I played against so they had on opponent which they could practice their play as they would have more fun than sitting alone. It was good to hear Mr. Josh B mention about some Duelists go into the tournaments without any previous exposure. I am grateful to the judges who were there for me during the YCS (2015) which I mentioned I had attended. After my experience I learned to be a better Duelist. I still follow the Yu-Gi-Oh! franchise including the (tcg) partially due to the judges (those I met at YCS 2015) accepting I was ignorant and they handled us or I well. It is serious. -J.T

[@Duelerama90]

This was really cool & informative; Hoping for part 2. Apparently judge JB also used to be a streamer? I gotta check those out

[@Calebbeck]

If it were me making a mistake I would’ve wanted to know. I don’t care about my feelings I would rather play correctly.

[@TURBO1000YuGiOh]

This was super insightful, even as a Master Duel player

[@zanekorvek8643]

JADGE!!!!!!

[@andreafiorucci8142]

When I was in Italy, Milan, my local used to have 30+ players always and there was not a real judge, we were asking other experienced players. Now I am in Belgium and here we are about 12 player per tournament and there is always a judge plus a second judge playing. I think it really depends on many factors

[@cortert103]

One of my favorite episodes, it was great to hear from a judge. Judges make the tournaments we enjoy possible and they deserve way more thanks. Was also great to hear the discussion about calling judges for minor mistakes. I need to a better job of calling judges more often, I just hate "being that guy". But I've got to break that mindset

[@TemporalDelusion]

Bro chose that picture to hide the dome.

[@irresponsiblecaptain851]

I find cheating is rampant at the local level, particularly when it comes to blatant slow play. This is partly my problem for playing a punk deck but the amount of times people suddenly forget what ze amin does and need to repeatedly check their GY for a response in game 3 is insane. People are afraid to call out this behaviour because "its just a locals, why do you care?" but its the most frustrating shit in the world when you just want to play a deck that uses LP. It's especially bad with players who are considered better players in smaller communities, because they either are the local "judge" or they're friends with them

[@ThetrueKidGoku]

Can't believe they brought up my favorite card ever, Question

[@randommaster06]

One of the things I woulds like to see most from the Tournament Rules is changing the way infractions are handled at locals. If most people at locals don't call for a judge, assuming the event even has one, why not have a more casual level of rules enforcement? Expecting the people at an LGS to have the same proficiency and familiarity with a deck as World's competitors is unreasonable, and as shown here, creating bad habits for the large events.

[@jadajp1782]

In terms of the marked allure of darkness, why didn't the player just flip their sleeves for the next event?

[@raypinshizel6975]

one of the best guest yet loved the discussions, need to have him back to get more insight into how ruling and general judging works.

[@colossaldonut5190]

I will say, my locals don't even have judges. It goes into what Farfa was saying where sometimes your locals is just "the guy who thinks he knows the most about Yugioh even if they're wrong". The experience is overall incredibly messy and when you don't even *have* a judging system in place things can devolve quickly.

[@karimiful]

The most annoying thing at larger events is the fact that language is a barrier for slowplay. I was playing at a larger event, my opponent spoke fluent english during our games. During our last game he suddenly forgot the whole language and and stayed to 4 to 5 words.

[@Eru_3ru]

is it me or does he look like a fusion of josh and farfa

[@jadajp1782]

My personal idea for counters/play markings would be. The tournament should supply coins that mark 1/10 counters. That way its still an individual coin per counter but also allows for easy reading of the count

[@graylinware4294]

1:06:14 funny/sad enough. I did this in finals for a shop team league qualifier in pokemon and the judge gave me a game loss because I didn’t shuffle my deck after everytime I searched my deck. Me and my opponent were super confused and irritated. 😢

[@spicymemes7458]

Since I'm primarily Master Duel in many ways specifically to address a lot of these issues, this episode probably isn't for me.

[@NikosGirginoudis]

Is there really no better picture of him tho?

[@Billy-ot8mk]

The Judgement Cast.

[@brandongriswold7558]

A good experience... Even with a stun player? I have fun playing stun, but long story short someone rage quit over my stun deck. I wasnt a poor sport or a sore winner... I felt bad he got that mad... He avoided me like the plague for the rest of the night....

[@jonathanagostini7469]

I play a lot of Game cards and i always do the shuffle after i do all my searchs and in yugi i do it that way when i play with friends with my zombie deck

[@44rptiger]

One of my favorite judges, scratch that, people. So glad yall got him on. Josh^2 is amazing and im here for it❤

[@georgeserban2914]

Bro is the yap master

[@georgesagris3508]

Question for judge josh: if there's a player who is a known cheater, and has been banned for it, who cheats at many events in different ways but doesn't get caught, despite people calling it to the judges attention, at what point is it too much? The only solution is to constantly have a judge watching their games and only watching them to catch them

[@the5thdoctor]

The slow play rule is a tricky one for sure. As someone with adhd and learning disabilities my reading is at a very basic level. And I play quite slow. I require my opponent to read his/her cards to me if i have forgot what they do or just never heard of those cards before. Sometimes going over with my opponent several times on what the cards do. The game is really complex so keeping track of the field is really hard. There were two situations at a regional and even a low level local scene where i was given a game loss because of a apparent slow play. I explained my situation and my opponent or the judge didn't seem to care. For a game that is 20 plus years old there is still a big problem when it comes to the inclusivity. Konami really needs to step up.

[@arglebargle5531]

As a disabled person myself, inclusivity is about doing whatever is *reasonably practicable*, and sometimes it's not going to be practible for a judge to accommodate our needs without harming everyone else's experience. An inclusion by design approach would be to allow people to self-declare and provide judges with training for these situations, but unless there was an actual separate category for disabled persons, I doubt that the problem is entirely fixable.

[@hightidekraken]

We have seen konami change the policy to accommodate for some levels of disability’s its possible

[@SDREHXC]

I’m sorry bro but it comes to a point where you’re essentially a blind guy asking why they won’t let you drive. If you genuinely need your opponent to read a card to you multiple times while explaining what it does you need to stick to locals and playing with friends. It sounds mean but it’s just the truth.

[@the5thdoctor]

@@SDREHXC I am not blind that is really disrespectful to blind people to make a comparison like that. I will never know what it is to be one of them. It is not the truth I don't agree there. Konami says that everyone is welcome to come to regionals or ycs. Yet they punish people based on who they are.

[@hightidekraken]

@@SDREHXC thats like telling a person missing a leg they can’t be an Olympic runner when opportunities for them to become one exist. Why shouldnt ygo which is available to everyone not make accommodations as well

[@zestiny5810]

1:13:12 . So you have to investigate the player's intentions and peer into the future. Gotta love time rules

[@ivanmaterazzo2631]

That's a thing I don't get. If a guy just says "idk dawg, I felt like in that spot if he dropped a lava golem I would have been cooked. Thus I had to link away my whole board while figuring out how to save as many resources as I can". Can you 100% say the guy is cheating?

[@MrJoshortega]

At ycs Sacramento top 32 match was pretty gross. Game 3, runick player stalls hard, summons munin, offers handshake.

[@BeanMagoon]

love how in this podcast we have one of the TCGs most experienced judges with decades under his belt, specifically highlighting how slow play/stalling are some of the most misunderstood penalties with some of the worst stigma communally, mentioning how subjective they can be, and how difficult they are to prove wrt intention, and the literal first comment I see on here is one completely ignoring all of that nuance. just disregarding all of those points entirely to make your own irrelevant judgment on a semi-recent match, assume a player's intention, and call it out as if we didn't have one of the game's premiere judges right here, in this podcast, cautioning us as all to NOT do exactly that. love this community, man

[@Fr3d0-1]

@@BeanMagoonHe was clearly stalling lol

[@colossaldonut5190]

​@@BeanMagoon Then wouldn't that be the perfect example for them to bring up?

[@guineapig2212]

Is it me or does anyone else think they're hearing Jesse talking about ruling 😂 The accent is fairly similar

[@darkcrow125]

i still dont understand the dice ruling as a magic player i would get mental if i need to get a die for every +1/+1 counter

[@Thegameshadow1]

Same. Absolute insanity.

[@shadowslayer3899]

Werent you forbidden to scoop in the OCG until recetly?

[@PharaohofAtlantis]

The Imperm ruling is strange to me. I get the feels bad situation of it, and want to avoid it but like - if it may matter in the game, it may matter - even if the onus is on the opponent to mess us. What if the opponent is searching and grabs the wrong card and need to stop their combo, preventing lethal? I think the negating a column effect on Imperm sucks but it is there.

[@moominfin]

What if the Yubel player was actually winning? What if this happened in a casual game at someone's house instead of at worlds? What if it happened in Master Duel? Think about that.

[@masanetthomas8586]

There is a lot to it but I believe the answer was given by the judge in the video in that he wouldn't expect a lower level judge to make this call. Because it is not expected of a lower level judge and because this is a judgment you need absolute confidence to make. This is clearly a judgment call that his experience allowed him to take. Can he be wrong? Yes. But he valued the non rewinding over the faint possibility it affected the game state. And I believe we cannot be definitive that he was wrong, at least in the spirit of the law. That being said, I have not played IRL since imperm was released but I strongly believe we shouldn't be punishing player that forget the imperm colon. To me this second effect should be used to negate cards already in the colon, not to occasionally bait someone into negating his own spell. MD agrees with it as they have put a visual reminder on the imperm colon. If we keep insistong on "sharking" people for the imperm colon, we need a marker indicating the imperm colon. The game was played 15 years with colon not mattering, sharking people because they automatically play in the middle is not in the spirit of the game even though it is technically correct.

[@PharaohofAtlantis]

@@masanetthomas8586 I'm not trying to say the Judge made a bad call. I however believe the *correct* call was to say "you played into the column - it is negated". And I would PREFER if it was "would you like to move your activation to a different zone"? Imperm column sucks. But I believe that rules should enforced as they stand without judgement for the situation. And if that feels bad then... that really sucks.

[@Thegameshadow1]

If the 2nd warning would not give you a game loss, people would be more likely to call the judge. No one wants to me the reason why you lose the game because of tiny mistake like attempting to activate Droll under Shifter. Imagine you lose because of that even though 5 out of your 6 cards (assuming you are going second) are live.

[@ZackeroniAndCheese]

Best one so far

[@EMPCraft]

Having pity with a Yubel player is odd, but joking obviously i get the point

[@fameshark]

I don’t agree with the Dragondark dilemma regarding “phase manipulation”. Time is a part of the game, clear and cut. Just like how I can purposely utilize Dragondark to cut off a Paleo or Lab “When” effect, Dragondark’s ability to play on the opponent’s turn and contribute actions to the phase with the strategic intent to play for time should absolutely still be valid. Players already make concessions in time - cutting off a combo short just to get to the battle phase to deal damage for example - I don’t understand why these options are more noble than using Dragondark to the best of your ability. If I leave a Marshmallon in Attack Position at the end of my combo, and my opponent forgoes half of their combo, ending on a weaker board, to be able to swing into that monster for damage, I would be the one misplaying for exposing my Marshmallon. So why, in this scenario, would the Dragondark player be in the wrong for utilizing its ability to interact when my opponent should’ve conducted a more favorable line under time? Time rules should be clear cut and not left to interpretation. It’s a part of the game - we should not be acting as though it’s a mythical outside factor. Dragondark’s ability to activate within time to defensive play for it is valid. What if I have a monster with a known burn effect that only activates during BP. Would it not be my opponent’s best interest to not go into BP during time? If that decision can be deemed strategic, then I think playing around the Dragondark in hand during time when the opponent is on Thunder Dragons is absolutely a strategic choice and failure to respect it should be on the player that didnt get to BP fast enough. It’s like Nibiru - If you play into Nibiru, and can’t recover, it’s your fault for not respecting it. If you do a long combo when your win condition was clearly the damage dealt in battle, you should be at fault for not respecting potential activations in Main Phase. I really don’t like the free pass here. They’re all mechanics represented under the same game.

[@BlueBloodPenn]

As much as I appreciate the sentiment of applying common sense, I really dislike the idea of not applying the rules based based on the judges knowledge of the game state. The judge knows both players hand so they know the Yubel player is losing in this example, but the Snake Eye player doesn't have that information. So based on the mind set of the Snake Eye player, they could have offered handshake based on an illegal activation that the judges caught and should not have allowed. As a judge you should be there to deploy the rules and allow some allowances where possible but deciding when to or not apply rules based on hypothetical knowledge of the players mind and your insider knowledge set is just asking for trouble and opening the door for errors to arise.

[@moominfin]

On activation the Yubel player had a Nibiru token and the Nightmare Pain on field with one unknown card (Veiler) in hand. The idea that the Snake-Eye player would concede with Poplar in hand, Nibiru on field, Engraver in GY (along with a Light Fiend of course) and his draw for turn (which he didn't even use before the end of the game) is ridiculous when all the illegal Nightmare Pain activation did was add Spirit of Yubel to the hand. You could just as well say that the judge intervention could break his focus and cause him to throw the game, based on his mind set.

[@BlueBloodPenn]

@@moominfin I agree a top level player in that position would never realistically do something like that, but you never know and opening that option up is something you just shouldn't do.

[@woodrowthompson1889]

Would listen to another episode with judge Josh!

[@colossaldonut5190]

I really hope the "pile shuffle" incident gets brought up

[@lanyardodo]

Why can’t tcg just use the speed chess/master duel way of using time? Whoever runs out of time first loses

[@ivanmaterazzo2631]

Cuz that's miserable in on-person events. On MD you can play as fast as you can when time is running down and you have the game itself checking for the legality of your actions. If you play chess, you can speed up if the time is running low since you basically would be moving pieces in the directions they are supposed to go.

[@Doombacon]

I think it would do yugioh some good to have events have explicit different levels of rules enforcement like magic the gathering has. That said it's pretty low on the scale of rules based issues yugioh probably should be solving

[@travisstandridge]

Knew a guy that back in the UDE days would brag about taking a match to "game four" at regionals and SJCs by lying to his opponent. If he would have lost 1-2 he would tell them he only has the match at 1-1 and that they need to play their third game still. People would just roll with it because they didn't want to risk the penalty or being called a cheater themselves even though they knew he was the one cheating. Calling a judge for any kind of play issue needs to be more common place to stop things like this.

[@whitesoxMLB]

"Sometimes we don't enforce the rules when it would hurt a player's feelings." What a way to instill confidence in the competitive integrity of the format.

[@FluoriteRhodochrosite]

Literally just not what he said

[@romanblaze7]

@@FluoriteRhodochrosite but it is what they did

[@TheIbney00]

The game was over. He was out of the competition. There is zero value in enforcing this here other than bureaucracy

[@FluoriteRhodochrosite]

@@romanblaze7 It is categorically not what they did. They gave the players a minor infraction after the match was over, which is on the players' records. This was stated. The only thing that did not happen is that the game state was not needlessly rolled back wasting everyone's time.

[@greenlinesrl6615]

Mhh, the kinda subjective decision about the Yubel player of the story is kinda sus...

[@adamdekuyper788]

Nah that imperm column call is BS. They messed up, missed a call and then used the “didn’t want to make him sad” excuse.

[@dascher6769]

Absolutly dont agree with the first example. Simply by the fact that the snake-eyes Player would have to reveal more cards and how they sequence their line can negatively affect them especially as it Was the last game off the day so his top 4 opponnent could just go back and watch it as prep. Should have been intervened the second it Was caught.

[@AstralLaVista]

JADGE

[@grgi3w4nt]

DJ KHALED

[@Leyus03]

at this point i feel like the guests episodes are the normal ones and the ones where it is just the both of you are the specials ones. (i know there is less ep with guests) i kind of get it why you would wnat guests, but personnaly, i have a guest ep fatigue it work well when it is just the 2 of you too

[@kazukomatsu7197]

Judge Josh recommends building a deck that can get 2 wins in 45 minutes. Meanwhile, he also says activating frivolous effects to prolong your opponent ending their phase is against the spirit of the rules. So you're allowed to deckbuild around time rules but can't make plays around time rules? Idk feels contradictory. Also, linking away your end board can get you dq'ed because it's a bad play if there weren't time rules? Wouldn't activating Dogwood be the same thing?

[@colossaldonut5190]

I get the difficulty of the position but it does feel like the whole time rules thing is just a complete mess.

[@four-en-tee]

Bro, comparing abusing time rules to taking the knee is such a weak comparison. You dont see football coaches teaching their guys how to stall out the final minutes of the 4th quarter, nor is the game built in a way to abuse the clock. It is literally a strategy in this game to include cards strictly to abuse the advantage of going first, thats why Lacrima got banned. I swear to god, i'm solving time rules after I'm done making my homebrew format.

[@dragoran149]

That’s a whole pie of bullshit. There is a policy and this is ruled there, a judge cannot override the rules and have to execute it. This is not part of decision making.

[@randomgenretalk8151]

Sure buddy you know the rules better than the person who enforces them for years.

[@dragoran149]

@@randomgenretalk8151 it seems so… In the kde it is under I.C and for the enforcement quality he read from III.A

[@colossaldonut5190]

If all you had to do was follow a strict rulebook there'd be no need for a judge.

[@dragoran149]

@@colossaldonut5190 a game need a set of strict rules otherwise u can not play within its boundaries. A judge should enforce the rules. Anyway there is a reason for the kde and judge Josh said it as well.

[@Zeroyue622]

I still think imperm column is a stupid design. It is like you are in high pressure situation, your line of thinking keep getting interrupted by your opponent's interaction, it is stupid that you have to keep track of the column. Especially you just need to move your card one to the left or right.

[@paulmonroy6534]

Skill issue

[@SR3TG119]

Git gud? Lmao

[@LorisEnsatzuken]

It's not different than remembering summon restrictions. It's part of the skill in the game, you make the mistake you pay it. People need to accept that mistakes can be punished for the sake of fair ruling to all.

[@sammydray5919]

Thats a stupid complain. Playing around stuff like that in high pressure situations is literally a skill issue. Thats like forgetting whose turn it is currently because you and the opponent just traded a bunch of interaction/effects back to back. It's annoying but in no way unfair to have to keep track of it.