Jaecerys & Helaena: A Wedding to Avoid War (House of the Dragon)

[@a_jerry808]

GRRM always puts in solutions for the story and the characters who either knowingly choose the other options or is unaware and that's how you make tension and drama.

[@jarrettjackson3677]

Exactly, through F&B and ASOIAF characters are presented with clear solutions but for hubris and pride they never choose correctly

[@elizabitty213]

This 👆🏻🙌🏻🤓

[@valysheev]

Facts I hate and love it

[@shihoblade]

This isnt a solution though. This wont change the fact that plenty of the lords dont recognize a queen and will default to Aegon or Aemond. Rhaenyra still needs them dead or gone in order to rule securely. This engagement wouldnt change that. All this would do is possibly fool the Greens long enough for Rhaenyra to make more moves but are they that dumb? Nevermind the future succession crisis when those of Rhaenyra's bastard line tries to go for the throne. This is no solution at all.

[@21526]

You should have taken the lordship Jon.

[@melissamoore5223]

I’ve always loved Helaena she’s one of the few that never did anything wrong to anyone she just did her duty and minded her mother. 😢 poor baby

[@SeeFair23]

A gentle woman

[@cherylbaxter8986]

What do you mean minded her mother does she have to look after her when she's old an Mad As I get the impression she feels uneasy with her like having Alicent touch her

[@alastairbrownie831]

@@cherylbaxter8986 Minded as in listened to.

[@melissamoore5223]

@@cherylbaxter8986 she did her duty and what her mother asked of her, I am referring to the book Helaena more so than the show… she hasn’t had But a few minutes of screen time.

[@Xyz.xyz.xyz.xyzzzzzz]

​@@SeeFair23

[@Laramaria2]

After episode 8, we all saw how much happier Helaena would have been with Jace...

[@ToastyMcGrath]

This also shows the tragedy in the family from all of this. Another thing we saw in this episode is that these children do not want to fight each other. They want to be family. It's the adults obsessed with setting them against each other that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[@leykimayri]

The children are still children. Just because they do not want to fight now, it does not mean that they will be friendly to each other in the future as well. Especially when they start having families of their own realising what should have been theirs but now it is lost to bastard ones....

[@ToastyMcGrath]

@@leykimayri Perhaps, but this is an absolute monarchy. Whatever the king says, goes. If these children grew up unwilling to fight each other, then they would be able to keep that peace. Instead, their parents and the realm forced this toxicity upon them.

[@leykimayri]

@@ToastyMcGrath Nope, it’s not “whatever the king says, goes”. The fact that Targaryens stopped practicing polygamy proves that, because the people of WESTEROS did not like that. Also the fact that you have characters inside the story feeling differently also proves that. It’s not a dictatorship, it’s a monarchy in a feudal society. Huge difference between the two political systems you’ve confused, you know. In addition, again, you have no idea how those children will react once they grow old. Siblings end up in courts and fighting and stop talking to each other when the parents die and the children then have to divide any wealth their parents have, which is actually something very common happening in families. So you can’t just claim that those children will grow up loving each other, especially when they grow old and have families of their own and understand that their legal right was STOLEN from them, because according to westerosi laws, the same laws that made Viserys a king instead of Rhaenys a queen, a daughter can’t become a queen when there are living male siblings.

[@ToastyMcGrath]

@@leykimayri Westerosi laws? There are none. The Council of 101 AC shows that. Viserys being able to select his heir shows that. You spent all that typing pushing against the wrong door. The only thing you got right was that it is a monarchy, but it is an absolute monarchy. The law is the King, and the King is the law. That is how the Seven Kingdoms have been set up.

[@leykimayri]

@@ToastyMcGrath You’re kidding me right? You just put a goal to yourself by mentioning the council, since the king because he had no heirs realised he COULDN’T name an heir himself so he asked his lords to choose. It’s so funny when people trying to play it clever without actually thinking beforehand, ahahahhaha. The fact that half of the westerosi lords and houses were divided between Aegon and Rhaenyra about who is the heir also proves you WRONG. If the king was the law nobody would challenge Rhaenyra. But no, instead of actually watching what the show shows or reading the book material you prefer spending your time writing stupidities online, lol!

[@Constantinople-uh9zg]

Marrying Jace and Heleana to avoid war would be like marrying Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York while her brothers Edward and Richard were still alive.

[@MassielRoss]

I kind of see Jace buying Helaena a bunch of bugs from westeros and bringing rare ones from Essos for her and building her a little bug zoo it would be his version of the watergarden, and Helaena would open it to the children of kingslanding 💗💗

[@NaerysTargaryen26]

Aww that would be Soo cute they both could do things they love Helaena being a bug teacher and Jace trying to be a great dragon king with good counsel, ally's and family which unfortunately Daenerys never had.

[@anshulpatel6232]

oh my heart 😭😭😭

[@anshulpatel6232]

oh my heart 😭😭😭

[@MassielRoss]

@@NaerysTargaryen26 Dany deserved a loving family 😭

[@MassielRoss]

@@anshulpatel6232 😭😭😭😭

[@rivermistfae]

Jace and Helaena probably could've been good to and for each other 😔

[@11more40]

And their kids wouldn't even know if Viserys is their grandfather or great-grandfather 😭

[@rivermistfae]

@@11more40 the answer is "Yes." 😆

[@MrHotSalsa]

Seeing them interact and dance together in episode 8 hurt me.

[@aeri_taylors-version]

they would 😢

[@alexeifrederickflores4021]

Yeah. Unfortunately, her mom was too stuck up.

[@traumer9622]

I've recently read a very interesting interview with Ryan Condal where he said the sexual murals are supposed to be "saved" from old Valyria, and that old Valyria basically had a very open sex culture. He went on to explain how the traditional outlook of Targaryens on sex is completely different from the Westerosi one. Just found that very interesting because Daemon and Rhaenyra are the most 'Valyrian' Targaryens right now. It adds this element of her being expected to act against not only her nature but also the culture that she was kinda brought up with and this additional context of a ruling class with a different outlook on morals than the majority of the country.

[@bartolomeestebanmurillo4459]

It lends to the theory that Old Valyria was this world's analog to Ancient Rome because the Romans were very very liberal when it came to sex!

[@annevergara7220]

Which interview was it? Can you give the link?

[@bird-mann952]

Aegon II certainly felt this way too

[@mybawzarerichie]

@@bartolomeestebanmurillo4459 indeed, they fucked a natural contraceptive into extinction iirc

[@traumer9622]

@@annevergara7220 sorry KZbin keeps deleting it ... but it's from 28.09., I'm sure you can find it online

[@Cole_E]

I think things probably wouldn't truly settle until Jace and Helaena had a few kids but it definitely would have eased the wider tensions between the Blacks and Greens. Granted Alicent would still have been driving herself mad but what better protection could she have than marrying her bloodline directly to Rhaenyra's? Her reaction is so telling of how twisted up inside her father's lust for power and Rhaenyra's poor choices have made her.

[@1rjona]

If Otto was there, would he approve the match or not? I think he would. It would match his goal of having a Hightower decendant on the throne. He might even be able to become the Hand to his grandson, like Tywin under Joffrey

[@absolutelyflawless5173]

@@1rjona Honestly I agree. Even if he truly believed what he told Alicent before he left I don't see why he wouldn't approve of the betrothal. While he'd probably be fully aware of Jace being a bastard he's a pretty pragmatic guy so he'd probably jump on the opportunity to secure the safety of his family AND avoid conflict all at once. Edit: So it appears this comment aged something like a fresh cadaver. I just watched episode 7 and now I feel obliged to retract this statement.

[@made-line7627]

She also has the ingrained Westerosi prejudice against bastard-born children

[@0912sooli]

@@1rjona idk I feel like Hightowers are too power hungry or they had some deeper reason to get rid of Targaryens. They want Aegon on the throne not any other

[@tikko1023]

@@0912sooli Too devout in my opinion. Kinda reminds me of the Faith Militant/Poor Fellows from Aegon the Conqueror's time they just had the advantage of being a noble family.

[@SilverScale.]

The problem is Alicent made up her mind a LONG time ago to support Otto's idea to vie for the throne -- before Rhae had any kids. Rhaenyra didn't do herself any favors with having Harwin's kids, but Alicent was always gonna gun for her. Rhae just gave her more ammo.

[@DavidLightbringer]

Yes and that shows in Alicent’s rejection of the marriage offer

[@SilverScale.]

@@DavidLightbringer I agree.

[@mo.shereefdeen]

she didn't give Alicent alone more ammo, she gave the entire Realm who already weren't particularly happy that a female heir remained named despite the arrival of a male one.

[@williamthell5930]

Why would alicent marry her daugther to an bastard?😅 rhaenyra has to deal with the consequences of her choices,not avoid it, acting like an 2022 hoe city girl and disrespecting The crown, When in The first place she doesnt have an real claim to it😅

[@Ravi9A]

What Rheanyra did is not giving ammo. It's lighting up a nuke.

[@juliemarie612]

Why am I so sad that these two fictional children will never get to know each other and fall in love now 😫

[@karimam1275]

You're aware that they're aunt and nephew, aka incest!

[@TheLethalGuy]

Jace will never get to fall in love with his half-aunt

[@11more40]

@@TheLethalGuy I'll cry to sleep thinking about this 😭😭

[@justt1984]

What ? You kinda weird bro

[@summerghost6551]

It's ok we got fanfictions for that

[@EmonyLP]

I was so moved by the way Emma delivered the proposal. Like yes, it was an obvious political play, but the "I miss my childhood sister" of it all really came through.

[@matthicks1129]

Viscerys should have forced this marriage, then tried to match two of the other three boys to Deamon"s girls.

[@11more40]

Aemond could've be with that girl without a dragon so they could complain to each other all the time about being excluded in the family

[@user-ti5cw1ug6l]

That would only strengthen the boy's claim to the throne by marriage as the Velaryons are the most senior branch of house Targaryen because of Rhaenys. Rhaenyra's Velaryon marriage didn't exactly work out so her non Velaryon sons would not be descendants of Rhaenys.

[@octoberboiy]

@@11more40 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@octoberboiy]

Yes this would’ve made sense. I understand when you’re sick you’re not at your best mentally but gosh was that not so hard to see?

[@cheapPixel]

Lucerys would've for sure needed to marry either Baela or Rhaena to secure his place as an heir of Driftmark. Everyone knows he's a bastard, so the least he could do is marry someone that is actually of Velaryon (most importantly Coryls's) blood to strengthen his claim. Marrying Aegon or Aemond to one of the Velaryon girls would've been disastrous. House Velaryon surely would've pushed for Aegon's/Aemond's succession.

[@cloverazar5315]

Not only would accepting Rhaenyra’s proposal have given Hightower an advantage… it would have put Rhaenyra personally in Alicent’s debt. Alicent would know that her action had been the one to save Rhaenyra’s children, and that sort of knowledge can be leveraged. It would also give Hightower the benefit of the PR of their own Good Queen Alysanne. “Queen Helaena the Healer, light of Oldtown; who started motherhouses for orphans and schools for bastards to learn trades”, etc etc. They could have really leaned into it, but Alicent allowed emotion to overrule intellect for a hot second there.

[@savanahh2848]

More like a hot couple decades

[@fauzanabdulkahfi957]

Ain't no way alicent accepting marrying her daughter to a bastard it's just giving rhaenyra to free her headache of having a bastard

[@cloverazar5315]

@@fauzanabdulkahfi957 yes - but that’s the point, isn’t it? Rhaenyra is everybody’s political headache, including Alicent’s. So what’s better? Giving Rhaenyra a helping hand (the same way she gave Criston a helping hand) and thereby having Rhaenyra - a dragon rider who has sons who are all dragon riders, and thus “legitimate enough” to roast anybody they please - in her debt… Or picking a fight whereby she gains nothing but the personal satisfaction of telling Rhaenyra her shirt’s wet? Alicent is thinking like a pissed off friend here, rather than a politician. She knows the only way she can crown Aegon is by fighting Rhaenyra. That way lies war - and Rhaenyra’s side has more dragons than Alicent’s. Her alternative is to achieve the crown through non-violent ends, which ensures her grandchild sits the throne without running the risk of losing a child. And with Jacaerys’s position secure, he’ll be unlikely to want to murder Aegon and the Green kids, because they’re 1) his family, 2) his allies, and 3) his Air Force, 4) his cadet branches he can arrange advantageous marriages for. Alicent had a golden opportunity to have the future Queen of Westeros in her debt, her daughter the Queen after her, and her grandchild the ruler… and herself, whispering “good counsel” into every ear. Missed opportunity there

[@pjp9840]

@@cloverazar5315 then there wouldnt be an interesting story to tell.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

@@pjp9840 obviously, but that wasn't their point.

[@mackenzieyoung5306]

Viserys no doubt loves Rhaenerya more than anything or anyone in the world after his beloved aemma horrific death

[@higeorge4060]

that he caused...

[@carastone3473]

@@higeorge4060 - he didn’t cause her death…except in that he was the one who got her pregnant in his obsessive quest for a son.

[@sseraphim2818]

@@carastone3473 Are you daft?

[@pernu6477]

Out of guilt for Aemma's death.

[@mynamenotgiven5717]

@@carastone3473 he chose to go ahead with the barbaric C-section. He did choose it behind Aemma's laboring back. Not about getting her pregnant. 🤔🙄

[@Geralds2cents]

What if they actually were in love. In the books Jace asked Helaena for a dance and Aegon II got pissed..

[@janellejulianajoy]

No. They barely interact. There was very limited contact between them as children.

[@greenforce68]

yes! Jace and Helaena both have a sweet demeanor. they'd probably be a good ruler like Viserys and Aemma.

[@aileenpi73]

There were quite a few options for marriages that could have avoided the war, starting with Viserys doing the right thing marrying Leana. Marrying Daemon and Rhaenyra from the beginning. Marrying Jace and Helena.

[@lilypond5158]

Not the Hightowers interfering with most of those marriages

[@TheMagicAround]

Viserys should NEVER remarry OR accept his first son with new wife to be successor - that is the point. Well, not completely. He could call the council for voting. Just like his father did.

[@maylynbayani]

And if Laena married the king and bore a son, you don't think Corlys wont fight to have that boy on the throne in favor of a bastard boy? You have to be kidding.

[@Sienisota]

​@@maylynbayanithat son could've been married to Rhaenyra or her daughter, since Velorians, unlike Hightowers, wouldn't have resisted it.

[@danika9411]

​​@@Sienisota That is actually not true. In the book the council was because of Corlys. And Corlys was read to fight. He didn't get through with it, but that was, because the vote was overwhelmingly for Viserys. Had it been 50:50 Vorlys might have gone to war in 101 AC already. He would have done the same thing.

[@cosmicriptid]

I always got the feeling Jace would have made a great king if he got the chance to be one

[@Umeshukitsune]

The best choice for rulers hardly make it to the throne in this universe...

[@rdpaik]

Sweetness doesn’t always translate to a good king. Look at Tommen. Nice kid. Weak king. Same with Viserys. Albeit Jace does have more fight than Tommen. Had he had a few more years with his real father, Harwin, and his wise grandfather, Lyonel, he truly could’ve become a great king.

[@alphalegionary7646]

@@rdpaik From the latest episode,he’s definitely got Harwin’s temperament, he’s got fight in him and he can be very sweet as well. He would have made a great king.

[@rdpaik]

@@alphalegionary7646 No doubt, he’s got potential and he’s the best of all the kids (between Rhaenyra and Alicent). He tried to make up, held in his anger and was sweet to Heleana. All noted. I’m just saying had he a strong father figure all his life, and a wise grandfather on top of that, he would’ve been something else. As he is now, there’s still a chance that the family feud, the identity crises and the sudden loss of Harwin & Lyonel to bad circumstances has messed with his personae a little (how could it not)? But I lean moreso towards agreeing with you.

[@alphalegionary7646]

@@rdpaik Oh yeah, if he had Harwin to keep him learning to kick ass, he probably would have sent Aemond to the ground with that first punch, and Lyonel would have taught him to not throw a punch in the first place. The ultimate teaching team.

[@TheQu1etWo1f]

My take: I don’t believe that Alicent is concerned for her kids’ safety and protection. I don’t even think she much LIKES her own kids by now. Maybe 10 years ago or so, but after a decade of becoming increasingly paranoid and obsessed over comparing her “goodness and decency” to Rhaenyra’s supposed lack thereof. Now it’s more about her and about her “prevailing;” the kids are really more incidental to her. They’re just there to prop up her image of being morally superior and in the right. I think she’s still got herself convinced that it’s “for the kids,” but her actions and the way she treats them, especially Aegon, tell a different story.

[@7Nebulae7]

100 % agree.

[@ashleyofnaath]

ding ding ding JACKPOT.

[@Lespritdelescali]

When I read the book I was convinced that Alicent's actual motivation was filicide by civil war - the only person who wanted to kill Alicent's children was Alicent.

[@antheazhou9879]

I suppose at first her children was the only thing that kept her going, like did Cersi, therefore she spoiled them, which made Aegon a brat. And that upsets Alicent, seeing what promising kids Rhaenyra has. So she's pretty much eating her own fruits. Same for Aemond, she's probably like "those bastards have hatched eggs but you failed?" Poor kids really.

[@MrBruh-fz8or]

Actually untrue , alicent likes her kids very much

[@Addam_]

Otto put two destinies in front of Alicent and she is actively manifesting the worst of the two options. I've always believed that yes, if Jace and Helaena married and Alicent fully allied herself to Rhaenyra and Jace's claim then no internal conflict would've happened and if a group of Lords decided to rebel to try and put Aegon or Aemond on the throne what could they do if both brothers fought for and supported their sister's (and Jace's) claim? That's a whole lot of dragons. I'm not absolving Rhaenyra of blame of course, bastards was a bad idea obviously but Alicent is pushing for the war that'll bring nothing but tragedy for both sides of the family when she had the ultimate power to shut it down with how she raised her children but Otto has poisoned her mind.

[@Nadaadizer9099]

Finally someone is being fair enough..... Choises were made, and sides were taken but the queen is watering the seeds of the war

[@leykimayri]

And how do you know that the brothers would take Haelena's side? She shouldn't even have any claim to the throne, it was their inheritance which was lost. That way the civil war would have now just half sister against the brothers, but two sisters, one half on full, against the brothers. Not to mention the fact that there is absolutely no guarantee that Jace and Alicent would have children or that they would survive or that Haelena would survive the birth, so saying that Alicent's grandchild would sit on the throne is a huge stretch. After Viserys' stupidity to marry and produce 4 dragon riders, nothing could solve the conflict but a civil war, since he wanted Rhaenyra on the throne he should never have gotten married. Not to mention Rhaenyra's stupidity to produce herself bastards....

[@Addam_]

@@leykimayri Well *nobody knows* anything except what we've been shown and what we've been shown is Aegon has no interest in the Throne but now that Alicent is screaming in his face that Rhaenyra will kill him we'll see. We already know Helaena survives multiple births, so yes I can assume Alicent's grandchild would sit on the Iron Throne. Since this is a conversation about preventing the Dance, if Alicent had married Helaena to Jace, hadn't raised Aegon and Aemond to hate Rhaenyra and her children but instead raised them to support them, then yes I can confidently say the Dance would have never happened. Nobody is blameless here but I put more of the blame on the person who insists on starting the war instead of having peace, which at this point is Alicent.

[@leykimayri]

@@Addam_ First of all we cannot judge someone's future action based on what he does during his teenage years. In addition you forget that in that scenario, a woman would be on the throne, having her bastard son as her heir, something that would not satisfy many of the lords of Westeros, so we cannot say that none of them would be able to manipulate one or all of the sons. Secondly, each pregnancy is totally different. The fact that Haelena survived pregnacies proves NOTHING. All it takes, for example, is a very active embryo in the womb that will turn a couple of times and have the biblical cord around its neck and guess what, unless a C-section is performed both mother and child will die. So, no, there is absolutely NO GUARANTEE that Alicent's grandchild will inherit the throne, or even that it will grow to be able to inherit the throne one day. The person to be blamed is still Viserys, and second in line is Rhaenyra for having bastards; had she not had bastards but Targaryen looking children the story would be different, since she wouldn't look illegitimate to the eyes of not only Alicent's but also to the whole of Westeros. The rest is hypothetical, none of the actors know how the other will act in the future or what their fate will be. Alicent is trying to save the lives of her children, and although I also believe that Rhaenyra wouldn't hurt them, I also believe that she would have to act against them at the end, either by force (example Daemon killing them) or even without her knowledge. Of course the other way around goes as well, Rhaenyra's life and the lives of her children will also be in jeopardy if any of Alicent's children inherit the throne, in order to secure it from any threats.

[@Addam_]

​@@leykimayri I've already said my piece, we'll just agree to disagree.

[@sophiekampitsch829]

I only just noticed how hard Helaena shrank away from Alicents touch

[@markagrippa4018]

Its pretty easy to tell from F&B that Jace is the easily the most worthy to succeed to the Throne of any candidate after Viserys dies, sad they didnt have another council, I think thats why Alicent had aegon and haleana marry so fast and have children to prevent this compromise

[@awedsilent943]

I love how you analyze things! I have never watched one of your videos and felt confused or underwhelmed by your explanations. The thought and detail you obviously put into everything you do gives me a nice glowing feeling in my nerd heart. Keep up the good work my dude!

[@lamadridista7]

I wish the show would provide an insight on Rhaenyra’s pov on how she planned to go about this from the start of the rumors. Viserys is protecting her best he can but once he’s gone it’s all up in the air. She had to know that or was she putting her head in the sand. That’s where jumping the time has missed these beats.

[@aileenpi73]

I really don’t see what other choices Rhaenyra had in order to produce heirs and strengthen her claim, as her dad told her to do. Marrying a gay man sure wasn’t the best choice. I don’t think we know enough about their attempts to get Rhaenyra pregnant. Leanor would benefit just as much, for sake of his family, to produce an heir. For them to have a relatively amicable relationship, where many years over they still allowed each other to dine as they pleased, something else must be wrong. Maybe they tried but Leanor is shooting blanks. It may explain why, not only him, but the entire family just accepted that any heirs wouldn’t be by blood. It wouldn’t be Leonor’s fault nor Rhaenyra’s and the entire family just decided to love and support one another other. That would make their demise more tragic being such an accepting family. 😢

[@mo.shereefdeen]

@@aileenpi73 does it even matter to anybody that a Strong is going to inherit Driftmark. i think Lord Corlys would rather let his daughter or granddaughters of legitimate parentage inherit Driftmark than a strong and a targeryen who shares absolutely no blood with them.

[@aileenpi73]

@@mo.shereefdeen I guess we have to watch the show and see if that is the case. Considering that they are aware their son is gay, and Rhaenyra as heir could choose to repudiate a husband who won’t give her heirs, the Velaryons may be grateful to Rhaenyra, and pay her back by accepting her kids. We’ll see

[@mildadr3a]

@@mo.shereefdeen I think episode 7 answered that question.

[@zecare]

I still feel like it could have led to a war or an uprising, it's an open secret that would plague them both, which their enemies could constantly use against them. Despite her obsession over Rhaenyra’s sons parentage, Alicent understood this and how it could potentially affect her daughter which also fed into the obsession…..not to mention Daemon who still wants the throne, glory and Rhaenyra will probably also have something to say. This whole mess is from Viserys passivity and trying to please everyone and not ruffle too many feathers, giving someone duck when they prefer goose will never make them “finish” their meal and he should have taken this into account along with Rhaenyra’s bold and daring personality

[@AaronGuest]

If Viserys was smart he would've named Aegon his heir after he was born.

[@zecare]

@@AaronGuest I think he was so in love with his first wife and their union he wanted it to live on through the realm somehow plus he had a soft spot for Rhaenyra as well. I personally think he should have just let Rhaenyra marry Daemon in the first place, everyone would be alive and Alicent’s personal vendetta would have less fuel.

[@AaronGuest]

@@zecare Thats what it is. But being a king means he can't let his emotions control. Him allowing Daemon to marry Rhaenyra would destroy the only reason she was named heir, which was to get Daemon further away from the throne, she was only supposed to be a temporary heir until he had more sons, thats why everyone wanted him to marry again. Daemon made Rhaenyra be like him too much, he convinced her that she could do whatever she wanted without consequences, that eventually leads to a Maegor like king. I don't think it's fair to say Alicent had a vendetta because she was rational in her thinking this is a medieval time, the Targaryens have already had kunslayers in their family at this point and her sons if we followed the laws of succession and tradition which is what almost all the realm follows then Aegon was the legal heir followed by his brothers. Atfer Aegon was born he should've said he was his heir. That would've simplified everything then, cause Rhaenyra didn't want the throne at that point in time.

[@CASantos]

Agreed. He probably objectively *should've* disinherited Rhaenyra at a certain point when she was just wantonly doing as she pleased. In this recent episode Alicent committed like 8 treasons - she should be executed or at least taken into custody. He also should've overruled her regarding the marriage proposal. Even criston, i mean almost everyone, have been able to break the law and disobey his orders right in front of his face with no semblance of consequences. Is anyone surprised most ppl are acting like he's not there and just planning for "what comes after" while he still lives? 😩

[@alphalegionary7646]

It probably would have led to some sort of war propping up Aegon, but Alicent’s own family would be torn on whether or not to support Helaena or Aegon. Plus, it makes it less of a sure thing as to whether Aemond opposes the Blacks, which would put any war or rebellion at a serious disadvantage given the Blacks always had the numbers in basic troops, fleets and dragons. Really the only reason any damage was done to the Blacks was because of Aemond and Vhagar.

[@1ightcap]

i don't know why, but you mentioning that Viserys seems to be enjoying watching thier grandkids with Lionel Strong made me a little verklempt. Put that way its such a human moment in a episode where everyone's mostly ill tempered with each other

[@The.Artistic.Squirrel]

This is so Yiddish I love it! ❤

[@umitencho]

This could have been avoided if he never remarried and worked to teach Rhaenyra how to build alliances & rule. That one act put Westeros on the path to war. He also should have pushed the importance of birthing a legitimate heir, had she held her desires in check for a couple years and gave her husband children, her claim would be rock solid and it would be Allicent begging Rhae for an marriage alliance. Allicent is too conservative and hurt over Rhae's lies to ever compromise. At this point she just wants Rhae and her kids gone & dead. She is a power hungry fool fueled by fear.

[@danika9411]

I agree. I didn't understand why Viserys didn't teach her better. The only thing Rhaenyra was, when she was younger was his cup bearer. The moment he named her, he should have started to properly prep her for ruling.

[@maryjarman4704]

This might have saved both kids in the end, even if just in theory. However...😭

[@mellonbee1204]

Yep however....

[@williamthell5930]

Why would she marry her daugther to an bastard?😅 rhaenyra has to deal with the consequences of her choices,not avoid it, acting like an 2022 hoe city girl and disrespecting The crown, When in The first place she doesnt have an real claim to it😅

[@DarkKing009]

Rhaenyra be like "I will not stand here listening to you all accusing me of something I obviously done"

[@moonlaughs26]

Yup

[@truetory6231]

Marrying Jace and Haelena would have solved nothing. The whole premise of the Green argument is the upholding of the tradition of salic law therefore Haelaena in their eyes would still have no claim as long as any of her brothers remained alive, same as Rhaenyra. All it actually does is put two persons with no claim (a bastard and a woman) on the throne whereas the actual legitimate sons of the king would still be left in a vulnerable position. Rhaenyra, if she ever became queen would still need to remove Aegon, Aemond and Daeron in order to secure the throne for her own illegitimate offspring

[@kkandsims4612]

The actor playing jace is freaking adorable when he sniffed and his little nose went up and he looked all sad at Harwin.

[@daemontarg000]

Let the fan fictions for Jace and Haelena begin

[@cosmicriptid]

Unfortunately I'm already working on Jace and Baela so this one's on other people

[@sharikakhaled1096]

the fanfictions are swarming with aegon and jace lolll

[@daemontarg000]

@@sharikakhaled1096 what no way?! Any for Daemon and Alicent I would love that

[@sharikakhaled1096]

@@daemontarg000 i don't really like alicent hence i avoid her fanfictions but there are quite a few alicentxdaemon.

[@daemontarg000]

@@sharikakhaled1096 where I can’t find any all of them are written before the show started and he’s bad

[@2ctheocean]

Point of order- in theory all of this could have also been avoided by Rhaenyra marrying Harwin Strong from day one- making the choice for herself like her father wanted instead of having the choice made for her.

[@davidpitts5851]

I'm so glad someone has made a video about this. It was such a crucial moment in the series when alicent throws the solution to all her problems down the drain out of spite. There's no benefit for her or her family by turning rheanerya down here.

[@DavidLightbringer]

well said

[@hoodyfrog7036]

Alicent not accepting that offer was absolute madness.

[@doanale3344]

Pride and the stigma of bastardy. It's dishonourable to allow a bastard on the throne and insulting to marry her true kid to him. All of this is so sadly political; Viserys was willingly blind to the bastardy but Alicent was willingly blind to the fact that Jace is a nice boy and would have been a far better husband to her daughter than her son.

[@Moompl]

Well Helaena would effectively be a political hostage, so I can understand why.

[@ratikantrout1865]

No look at velaryons they sided with rhaenyra and they ended up with nothing

[@jesussideralcarrion2580]

@@ratikantrout1865 y como quedaron los lannister, baratheon que se pusieron del lado de los hightowers'

[@MissOtaku18]

Alicent is caught up in her own righteousness to make the most logical decision presented to her: unite their families to keep her children safe.

[@elwinjohnson4004]

All those fm king dragons together nobody would try they stood together

[@FruityHachi]

but she does not even uphold decency herself when she offers her feet to Larys

[@rhaenyrasfanatic]

@@FruityHachi i mean we cannot blame her tho, she grew up using by men and thats actually so sad

[@FruityHachi]

@@rhaenyrasfanatic nah, she doesn’t have to do it, she’s the queen and her son has vhagar

[@rhaenyrasfanatic]

@@FruityHachi yup, she should've chop that brat's head

[@nevaehaho61]

I feel like a lot of people talk about how much Rhaenyra is like Viserys, but I think Helaena is definitely the closest in personality to their father. They each have a kinda nerdy interest (bugs for Helaena, medieval equivalent of legos for Viserys), prophetic dreams, and both are more reserved people (especially compared to their respective siblings). I don’t think it would have fit in with the rest of the season well, but I would have loved to see a scene with just Viserys and Helaena bonding a bit. It would have been nice to see Viserys even attempt to more than vaguely acknowledge that he even has other children besides Rhaenyra lol

[@oceanfive5]

He does in the book, it’s a shame they didn’t put it in the show

[@mollydaughterofduck1484]

Is anyone else feeling a fanfiction coming on? If only Rhaenyra was more politically astute. Plus, I always thought Rhaenyra's children's paternity was more questionable in the books. They looked less Targaryen, were described as looking 'common' but the Velaryons aren't all white haired in the book. Leanor's mum's mum is a Baratheon, and the seed is strong so Rhaenys has dark hair, possible with a light streak like some do, and the pic of Corlys has dark salt-and-pepper hair. Leana is described as having long silver curls, but no one talks about Leanor's hair, I don't think. He might be gay but that doesn't mean he can't have children.

[@d_randy]

Hi David! Please make MORE “What If” videos!! I’m really interested in your insight of things that could’ve happen/avoided!

[@TheBigHatLegion]

A new video with David?? Now, THIS is what needs to go with my morning coffee. David, you are are true Ser🍻 May Garth make your jars overfloweth!!

[@MrHws5mp]

Rhaenyra might not be inclined to put Alicent's sons to death, but after defeating three or four costly rebellions and/or plots _by other people_ to put them on the Iron Throne, she might reluctantly decide, under pressure from her advisors, to do it anyway. Look at the real life Elizabeth I and Mary Queen of Scots for a similar dynamic.

[@cosmicriptid]

Alicent may think that, though in the books, Rhaenyra does everything she can to avoid actually killing any of her relatives.

[@cosmicriptid]

@@Baellyn Possibly, though I really got the impression that wasn't Rhaenyra, and that was all Daemon on her behalf, kind of how Larys has acted so far. Rhaenyra seemed terrified of becoming a kinslayer, althoigh it could have been her, we don't know for sure either way. It could have been Larys for all we know woth the way he was acting. My guess is Daemon though.

[@Lespritdelescali]

Everything in the show version of Alicent roots back to Alicent (and in his own way Criston Cole) having a strange willful class blindness towards Rhaenyra where they both seem to forget that they were never her equal friends and she didn't really ever betray an equal friendship, at least not by having profoundly different responsibilities and freedoms than them. They were her employees even when they were young, they are the king's direct employees forever after and throughout the story they are the ones who are betraying their responsibilities required by their jobs because they just can't accept that they are lower class than the Targaryens and there actually are different laws and rules for people in different classes in this world. You can make a case that Criston Cole doesn't freak out and do a murder every time he is reminded that he broke his vows, he freaks out every time someone reminds him that there are different rules for different classes and he is in the low one. Alicent is only queen consort because Viserys needed a Lady of the Bedchamber more than he needed a wife - if Rhaenyra had any PR skills whatsoever she would have destroyed Alicent with this - further its likely that if Viserys in his own misguided way had not thought Alicent would not continue to act in service of Rhaenyra he would have never picked her. Alicent and Criston are both just so jealous of her that they can't see that both of them have risen so far beyond their station than they ever should have hoped to dream - and it keeps them from seeing the only good things in their lives were only ever possible because of her favor and friendship. That any future opportunities in their lives would only be possible through her favor and friendship.

[@FruityHachi]

thank you! finally someone mentioning that Rhaenyra and Alicent are of different class all I see are comments failing to realize that when siding with Alicent

[@jessshnarcky1089]

I'm glad that someone pointed this out, because in the first episode that Alicent and Rhaenyra are interacting. It very much seems that they are equal and it becomes apparent later.

[@siran424]

Lol.. Rheanyra destroying Alicent if she PR skills ?? What a load of bullshit ? The only reason she is even heir is because her brother died soon after birth and Deamon joked about it. Viserys was left with lack of options and was stuck with the useless Rheanyra. And she repaid that favor by whoring around and making the situation worse by giving birth to three bastards and marrying Deamon.

[@siran424]

@@FruityHachi They are not different class.

[@kellharris2491]

Omg you guys don't get it. Why are they different class? Why are they special? Just because they sleep with each other? Just like Alicent said what makes them so entitled to do anything they want?They aren't even from this land. Ultimately it's the dragons. It's might makes right. The Targaryens aren't God gifted rulers. Many infact are terrible. They are just the strongest until they are not. Once people were no longer afraid of them the common people just carried on without them. Just like they did before they arrived. Didn't you learn from GOT? The Targaryens aren't special. No one is.

[@cassiegeorge141]

Seeing the way they danced in episode 8 they could have been happy together

[@elisebrodeur-jacobs5215]

I'm re reading Fire and Blood!! It's fascinating. Thank you David for all the incredible content. So proud to be a myth-head!

[@blogsanjay1031]

You know I didn't understand this and im happy you brought it up, how is the KING too weak politically to overrule the queen? Also, even if Viserys wanted to disinherit Rhaenyra after everything, that would be a bad idea?

[@Ashbrash1998]

Now as he's gotten so sick and relies on Alicent more had made him more passive. He doesn't want to rock the boat with his wife so she walks all over him.

[@Jojo_Wombat]

Your video is a great argument for the case that Larys Strong is a greenseer sent to destroy the targaryen dragondynasty - so that the greenseer and weirwoodkings can conquer/rule westeros. Larys one of, if not "the" main reason that Alicent can not trust Rhenyra anymore. Alicent can not accept Rhaenyra and the offer anymore. I appreciate your help to save the deal. :-)

[@DavidLightbringer]

🤣🤣🤣

[@WatashiMachineFullCycle]

Man, I knew they would be a great match and avoid the war but this video has solidified my feelings and amplified them tenfold. I'm actually upset now at what could have been, and thinking about how Jace dances with Halaena at her wedding and how frustrating and sad that is if they actually seem to like each other

[@WatashiMachineFullCycle]

Speaking of frustration I'm starting to see a lot of people not understanding your points about Rhaenyra - they really are out here thinking you hate her, when you're just pointing out the law. You're absolutely right, and if this conflict took place in modern day I'd support Rhaenyra 100%. People are conflating morality (I see nothing at all morally wrong with Rhae and Laenor's open marriage) with what is legally true (her living this way weakens her claim in the eyes of Westerosi law and in the eyes of the commonfolk, who don't have the same modern viewpoints that we the viewers do

[@TealWolf26]

Rhaenyra: Let's sow peace in the realm and wed our child- Alicent: No u!

[@ShiningLight411]

10 years later, Cris is still bitter! On top of this, Alicent is still bitter about Rhay’s choice of young hot muscular men in comparison to her having an old man with rotting flesh!! Heck…I would be jealous too!!

[@sharrigarvin3348]

Lol 😆 Too True!!!!

[@ItIsWhatItIs78174]

Thats what I think it boils down to: Alicent is jealous of Rhaenyra's freedom compared to her.

[@chrissiek8706]

Ten yeeeeeeaaaarrrs, in Daemon's voice 😅

[@octoberboiy]

@@chrissiek8706 you mean in Laenor’s voice haha

[@bimbsthekingkunta5653]

well Rhaenyra is trying to place a bastard on the iron throne that's high treason in a world like westeros that a low born can be killed by simply hunting in the kingswood royals like rhaenyra is no exception jaherys made sure of that that even royals should punished if they commit treason. And if she don't honor the laws that aegon ,jaherys and alysanne worked hard for shes no different and just as terrible as aegon 4 and aenys 2 who bend the rules to their benefit 🤷🏿‍♂🤷🏿‍♂

[@lemonadelemon1960]

Alicent was right to say no to Rhanera's betroval. The belief that those boys are not true born would spill into their children. Their children would not have a legitimate claim. And Helena would not have the noble prestige marriage if her husband is believed to be a child born out of wedlock. ( KZbin thinks the other word is an insult)🤣

[@traumer9622]

Thank you so much for saying that being a bastard does in fact not effect your character! I see a lot of comments online alluding to exactly that and being like "oh he is a bastard he doesn't deserve to marry a princess" and it makes me question humanity

[@wildercerrate7295]

People are actually falling into feudalistic bull like that lmao I've been noticing it too

[@Addam_]

I've seen the same thing, it's wild.

[@Zz-lp8yr]

it would not be coherant that someone like Alicent acept, it would just be very bad writing to treat all over your IP bastards like the worse scum on earth, to then have a conservative woman, conservtive in the world of ASOIAF at it, be totally fine with it. Universe building isnt about what you like in real life, it needs to be coherent in its own universe.

[@oglocop4693]

Another element to Alicent's refusal could be that if she believes that eventually, this charade with the Strong boys must come to an end and when that happens Helaena would be in danger as Jace's wife. Of course, she is the main force chipping away at the charade so it's quite similar to Otto saying that the realm won't accept Rhaenyra when he is one of the main opponents of her succession.

[@jschoma11]

She's the one leading the charge though. How can she be fearful of consequences that she is the driving force behind?

[@octoberboiy]

Exactly

[@octoberboiy]

@@jschoma11 just remember she things she is noble and pure and it’s her duty to ensure that Rhaenyra is punished. Even though she saved a murderer and is an accomplice to a dual murder as well.

[@randomlygeneratedname7171]

@@jschoma11 End of the day armies decide who rules and where a country even stretches. Otto and Alicent are right to assume rhenyres will try and kill her brothers because the men would be patriarchal and disrespect her.

[@Calinotch06]

The wedding to avoid war would have been Viserys and Laena. She looked very young at the time of the proposal, but she was only two years younger than Rhaenyra. They made it seem like the king would die every episode, when really he had a ton of time. He could've accepted the offer and married Laena a few years later because of her age and because he was still mourning Aemma.

[@janellejulianajoy]

Thank you. Not only do they create a lasting bloodline with the Velaryon family, they would have little to.worry about in terms of backstabbing. Everything would've been cool. I'm sure Laena would understand Viserys position on naming Rhaenyra his heir. Not to mention this limits the Hightower influence.

[@iriswatt4275]

Do you really think Corlys Velaryon would have been okay with his true-born legitimate grandson being passed over in favor of Rhaenyra if Laena had actually had a son? And what about Rhaenys, who still had a claim to the throne and got passed over in favor of Viserys simply because she was a woman and he a man? Would she really stand for such hypocrisy when her family is constantly being slighted by House Targaryen and cheated out of the Iron Throne? Viserys might as well just give the throne back at this point.

[@Calinotch06]

@@iriswatt4275 It's a theory.

[@robbykurle6195]

When you said "alas, it was not to be..." I sighed

[@robbykurle6195]

dramatic irony....

[@farahgiovanna]

This was, as usual, wonderful and insightful

[@blackdesign8197]

Viserys threatening you with your tongue is just too funny. hope to see it become a funny video edit someday.

[@bensonfang1868]

The issue is, this still leaves all of helaena’s brothers, especially Aegon since he’s the only one whose older, to claim the crown. When Elizabeth of york married Henry Tudor, that was only cause all her brothers died that she and Henry United their claims. Even then someone pretended to be her brother and her male cousin was executed for posing a threat. Jace and helaena is like Elizabeth and Henry but if the prince in the tower are still alive

[@DavidLightbringer]

I see your point, but I would counter that Aegon or Aemond could only mount a credible threat if they had the backing of great houses and their armies. Assuming Hightower is behind the Helaena / Jace wedding, then Aegon can’t really do much.

[@iriswatt4275]

@@DavidLightbringerAegon II, Aemond and Daeron will likely marry eventually, it’s inevitable, they’re considered some of the most desirable boys in the realm as Targaryen princes, dragon-riders and sons of the King, and they’ll likely have children with their wives one day, children who will also one day wed and have children of their own one day. I’m sorry, but I really can’t see this ending up in anything but another Blackfyre Rebellion with dragons, even if they manage to put off the war for a little longer, like a generation or two (which is still highly unlikely).

[@morganSnow421]

I'v been waiting for this David lightbringer never disappoints!! The war could have been avoided if this marriage was a success.

[@Ivanus59]

The problem with Rhaenyra is that she takes for granted all of the privileges she has as a princes and instead of focusing on those many benefits, she is so obsessed with the very few things that are forbidden. She also gives very little if any consideration for the consequences of her actions and instead just does whatever she wants, she may not be outright evil or intentionally trying to hurt people but this is recipe for disaster. She wants the benefits of being the heir to the throne BUT doesn't care for the obligations of such a position. And if she, the future queen, doesn't give a shit about following the rules, how would she expect her subjects to take those rules seriously then? - I guess by having dragons and being a cruel dictator. I understand Leanor is gay but for the sake of avoiding a potential massive bloodbath one day, they should have made at least the first child together. Besides, wouldn't he like to have a son of his own?

[@DavidLightbringer]

Well they tried, like they said in the episode. It’s hard to get pregnant.

[@Ivanus59]

Oh, riight, okay now I saw it in the 7th episode. That's sad then. :/

[@jjh2456]

@@DavidLightbringeryeah they tried but they needed to keep trying. As heir she has to do her duty. Once she does that, then she could do what she wants. She was the heir. She has a responsibility that she must take care of and she didn’t.

[@danika9411]

​@@Ivanus59 Laenor wasn't infertile. They just tried very few times and then no more. Getting pregnant sometimes takes a bit longer. Also he could have given her his s***. Spoiler!!! Laenor has 2 biological sons in the book. He could have children.

[@moonlaughs26]

She could’ve at least slept with Leanor’s uncle or a cousin if he had any. That way they would’ve had a child with similar features to Leanor

[@jjh2456]

This was a trap honestly. Since Jace’s bastardy is known, when he ascended there will be a dance.

[@antoniomolinagarcia]

I wonder how Alicent's character changes now that she's the ine rejecting marriage proposals for her children instead of the one proposing the marriages. It seems now that, at least in this point of the story, she was more willing to resolve the situation in the books than in the show. Grest video as always LmL!!

[@maxr7527]

I can totally see things from Alicent's point of view, she's done everything by the rules and Rhaenyra has been sh*tting on the floor constantly with 0 consequences just because of her dad. I don't particularly like Alicent but I have even less respect for Rhaenyra as a person or a leader.

[@elwinjohnson4004]

They both fucked up for different reasons

[@FruityHachi]

and Alicent's Aegon isn't? he too has illegitimate sons, Alicent herself is protecting his immorality and doesn't make him face consequences and Alicent herself is selling her body to Larys so, Alicent is just projecting

[@maxr7527]

That is a fair point; but I think the difference is that Alicent had to come to this once she realised that she had to become a shark at the moment she realised she was being played by the other sharks from the beginning while Rhaenyra embraced it willingly. Don't get me wrong I dislike both characters but I just think it's unfair that Alicent should receive 100% of the backlash while everyone is yass queening Rhaenyra unconditionally

[@FruityHachi]

@@maxr7527 she realized she also has to play dirty but she still didn’t come off her high horse she’s a hypocrite, that’s why she receives all the backlash as nobody likes people who act like they’re morally superior when they aren’t

[@staticdynamic1605]

I can only say what I've already said before - I love your work!

[@iliaponomarev1624]

Why wouldn't they just marry Jace, Luke, Joff, Aegon, Aemond and Daeron to Helaena, Baela and Rhaena? There is no succession crisis that can't be solved by incestuous polygamy.

[@darrenalevi3006]

if Helaena does have Dragon Dreams it would be interesting to see if she passes these dreams on to her daughter Jaehaera?

[@Sam_Kings]

The only wedding that I think would have avoided the civil war would have been Aegon and Rhaeynra. Viserys was a moron to dismiss it out of hand.

[@olalala439]

thought about that too. it would have avoided so much loss and pain for targaryens. plus age difference between aegon and rhaenyra is lesser than between alicent and viserys

[@gmr1111]

@@olalala439 age difference is exaggerated in show in books they are 10 yrs apart and alicent is 10 yrs older than Rhaeynra and was never her BFF as in show.

[@Addam_]

I don't necessarily disagree but wouldn't Rhaenyra of been around 30-31 if they married when Aegon turned 16? I don't know much about fertility but for a female heir wouldn't having her wait that long to have children potentially pose a different set of problems?

[@CJDM310]

@@Addam_ you’re right. That’s the biggest reason I thought it wouldn’t work.

[@chrisloyal9796]

@@Addam_ He probably would have been closer to 12, really. But, who are we kidding? Rhaenyra wouldn't have kept to her marriage bed. Not even if it meant peace. She's too proud and as long as her side has dragons she would feel like she could put bastards (even pale haired ones) on the Iron Throne.

[@sarahd.5244]

I think an important context here is that kids born out of wedlock are viewed very differently in most of Westeros than in our world. They have special surnames to distinguish that they're bastards so everyone knows and can judge them. Their mothers are shamed, worshippers of the Seven denounce them as products of lust and sin, etc. In many places they can't legally inherit, certainly can't succeed in a noble line. They're viewed as naturally sneaky and suspicious, lustful and deviant, because of their birth, we see this in the books how Jon Snow is treated and how Sansa in her disguise is harassed. After the Blackfyre Rebellions, bastards are seen as potential causes for house unrest and families being torn apart, dangerous to the very safety and stability of a kingdom. Alicent marrying her trueborn daughter to a bastard would have solved a lot of problems yeah, but it would have been a major insult, demeaning and disgraceful, especially as the rumors spread far and wide that he wasn't a trueborn heir but a bastard who shouldn't have been crowned at all. What if the devout were whipped up into a frenzy to dethrone the bastard king? What if minor noble houses propped up their own trueborn children as rivals to the throne? What if witnesses to Rhaenyra's adultery came forward and spoke out? What would happen to Alicent's daughter and possible grandchildren then? That's not safety, that's kicking the problem down the road for a few years.

[@papabungle]

I don't think wedding Jake and Helaena is quite the silver bullet people think of it as. It's more like a shot in the dark by Rhaenyra as an attempted olive branch. Eventually Aegon and Aemond and Daeron are going to get married to other high houses like the Lannisters, like the Baratheons, the Tyrells, the Velaryons. And there's nothing stopping THOSE high houses from using Jake's pretty universally agreed but not official status as a bastard to try and push Aegon II's claim over Rhaenyra and they are probably going to play the Game of Thrones. It might and probably would cut off enough support for the upcoming war to not be such a devastating issue. But as long as Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron live Rhaenyra's and later Jake's reign is always going to have legitimacy issues in the eyes of the high lords and just marrying Haelena and Jake isn't going to magic bullet solve it. Like lets say J+H goes through and Alicent drops the issue. Then Baela Valaryon is a viable marriage to Aegon and Corlys with Aegon as his grandson in law, is probably going to have issues with the law of succession not just because of the throne but because whatever kid from a very possible Baela and Aegon marriage would actually share Corlys's blood and he would obviously prefer his blood to inherit Driftmark over Luke who isn't fathered by Laenor. Even if Alicent does the marriage and drops the issue, there's nothing stopping whatever Lannister lady Aegon marries, and the lord of Casterly Rock or whichever house he marries, from spending all of the time going forward trying to ratfuck Rhaenyra and later Jake out of the throne. It's inevitably going to be an issue. Rhaenyra fucked up. Big time. And there's no real way to completely bloodlessly take the throne anymore unless literally everyone and every highlord bends over backwards to ignore her treason and the law.

[@DavidLightbringer]

I don’t quite agree; the Velaryon are already on board with Jace being a “Strong” Velaryon, so no, they wouldn’t then marry Baela to Aegon and start a war. It’s not realistic. If the Velaryons, Targaryens, and now Hightowers all agree - all the dragonriders, in other words - nobody is mounting a rebellion.

[@papabungle]

@@DavidLightbringer Corlys is okay with the Strongboys because they're basically all he's got. But if Aegon married one of Corlys's granddaughters, that changes the equation somewhat and even if you decide against it any house that has an alliance with Aegon is going to be tempted to use him. And Lets say Aegon marries into the Lannisters instead, Aegon's kids are most likely going to be dragon riders as well just like how Rhaenys's children all became dragon riders. If Aegon marries a Lannister and Aemond marries a baratheon, it's not Velaryon+Targ+Hightower who have dragons but it becomes Velaryon+Targ+Hightower vs Lannister+Baratheon. The issue is that if you're any Westerosi high lord, believe in male primogenitor, consider high treason to be disqualifying, and that bastards can't inherit which is a ton of them, they're going to at least entertain the idea that Aegon should be king instead of Rhaenyra or Jake. Him being king and your daughter being queen is just too tempting to just never even cross your mind. You're right they might not act on it, but Aegon's existence is inherently threatening to Rhaenyra in a way there's no good easy answer for. Unless like Rhaenyra marries Aegon after Laenor kicks the bucket which, just ew.

[@anitat9727]

@@papabungle Rhaenyra could have easily married her two other sons to Corlys's grand- daughters. She'd only have two sons left for other matches then tho. Rhaenyra's definitely looking for an olive branch. Though by handing one out, Alicent would have become the most powerful woman in Westeros - queen dowager from a really rich family, queen regeant in her debt, her daughter to be on the throne and three dragon rider sons married to powerful houses. That's a Corlys level of 'don't fuck with me power'.

[@GraniteLiberty]

Its kind of funny because I believe in the book (Fire and Blood) it was Alicent who pushed for a marriage between Aegon and Rhaenrya originally to avoid this conflict. I can't remember if there was ever any suggestion of marriage between Jacaerys and Helaena, I think by then the emnity was so great it would've been denied out right like it was in the show. Truly, King Viserys probably should of never remarried in the first place. He should've pressured Rhaenyra to marry sooner, thereby making sure the only threat to his daughter's claim is from her Uncle or the Velaryons. His marriage to Alicent only increased the number of threats to Rhaenyra's claim. In any case, great video and I'm loving the show so far.

[@lemonicetea2642]

in the book there is a point where he asks her to dance aswell and almost gets into a huge fight with her husband because of it 😫

[@j.gregoryhenderson6032]

I don't get why Rhaenyra and Laenor didn't just...you know...kinda...figure it out. Kinda like Marge suggested to Renley.

[@elwinjohnson4004]

Both selfish childish and irresponsible and they parents weren’t honest with themselves

[@s4m1r_65]

A union to save the realm and the house of the dragon. Another union proposed by Otto was between Rhaenyra and Aegon, and I believe it could have worked as well hehe. They would both rule westeros together

[@cosmicriptid]

Yeah not as sure about that one. Rhaenyra was a teenager and Aegon a toddler, it would have been ages before they could marry, and their personalities would not have been spectacular together

[@bennyinict8768]

Another great breakdown! Looking forward to tomorrow episode & the live stream after!

[@lucyk2371]

The King should have just said yes to Rhaeneyra's proposal and not even considered his wife. She has obviously lost it. Why would she propose such a thing if she wanted them dead? He should have taken his daughter's side. It would have saved many lives.

[@Kadasberry11]

It’s giving Big Little Lies. I love it! Your take is spot on, I totally agree. 👏🏾

[@ToastyMcGrath]

And the thing is, these fears and feelings are all very human. We have all felt what these characters have, and it can hurt sometimes. And just like real people, these characters make mistakes as a result of these shortcomings.

[@DavidLightbringer]

100%

[@dawn1424]

Heres the problem. Jace is a bastard of house strong and everyone knows it. Rhaenyra's position on the iron throne even without the greens is tenuous at best. But with an obvious bastard her rule, her sons rule and any authority of her bloodline will be called into question. If Rhaenyra's family falls and helena is married to jace, then she will be brought down with them. Alicent and Rhaenyra knows this. A more likely explanation for Rhaenyra wanting a betrothal is to have a hostage in the event of a war. It would greatly benefit the blacks if they had a family member of the greens to hold hostage during the dance. This suggestion of marriage was not some plan to avoid the dance, it's a shameless grab for a hostage

[@jamesstockwell817]

Second of this video/ name…. Thanks again, LML / AKA - David Lightbringer!

[@Paganscot]

Great content as always. Best wishes

[@jessdubbs176]

Your ideas are always on point 👏👏

[@Calinotch06]

great commentary, new sub

[@Judustine]

I feel like this like a lot of others, completely glosses over a key point. Alicent does. not. want. Rhaenyra to be queen, and she wants her son Aegon to be king. Simple, I know but this fact seems to get lost so much. In any outcome that leads to Rhaenyra or her sons on the throne over Aegon or Aemond is a failure in her eyes. Hence, why she doesn't agree to the proposal that would literally set Rhaenyra and Jace as the heirs to the throne. Not to mention brokering any type of deal with Rhaenyra would require Alicent to actually trust her which she doesn't at all.

[@DavidLightbringer]

And she will suffer the consequences of this misjudgment

[@isabelmorala5285]

YESS!! The best analysis of the situation, again, was yours. Kudos Lightbringer!!!

[@SeeFair23]

However Laenor never denied them being his children. Clearly they weren’t but they were still considered Velaryon.

[@chazblank2717]

“Throwing a practice dummy at your opponent? Sounds like the last desperate move of a Bastard without honor…” - Sir Criston “Shit-Grin” Cole

[@mavirr_crazylittlegirl8902]

Something really sad is that when Alicent's and Rhaenyra's children seemed to get along and kinda play and joke around with each other it was all the adults the ones who separated them

[@jenniferhammond632]

It was Larys villainous treachery that directly or indirectly caused the Dance of the Dragons. After his discussion with Alicent by the hibiscus bush, the dance was on, and to late for compromise.

[@judigemini178]

Everyone has played their part, some more than others...but yeah I agree larys was the one that tipped things over, he was that little push needed to start the escalation downhill because his little gossip session with young alicent is what led to her basically declaring war with the green dress. But if you ask me alicent was so naive and neurotic already, it wouldn't have taken much to manipulate her the way larys did and basically anything would've set her off.

[@gokuson2778]

@@kmjkmjkmj I think Alicent knows this. She simply does not care. They are bastard so their life is meaningless to her. From the episode, that what I got from her. She was excited when she thought Lionel was going to tell Viserys about the shadow over his house. Hell she wanted him to say it all.

[@maylynbayani]

The root of the problem is that there are three legitimate Targaryen princes. Helaena marrying Jace would only make her a hostage. Just like when Elizabeth of York (Compare to Helaena) married Henry VII, only her sisters were made "safe". All her brothers died. When a person claiming to be his brother showed up, they had to execute him. Whether he's a pretender or not, the fact remains that a challenger to the throne has to be killed. Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron had to die

[@hunith3469]

Exactly, I'm confused why no one is thinking of this. Jace and Heleana marrying wouldn't really solve anything but make her a hostage and put her and her future children with jace at risk. The union isn't a fix all solution. Try hill's alive video it makes more sense.

[@iriswatt4275]

Then you have the fact that Rhaenyra’s kids aren’t considered legitimate by Westerosi standards, which almost ensures there would be a war if not between Aegon II and Jace/Rhaenyra, then between Aegon III and Jace.

[@iriswatt4275]

Yes, Helaena is not the problem because she’s lower than Rhaenyra in the line of succession no matter how you look at it, it’s Aegon II, Aemond and Daeron who are the real problem. Marrying Helaena does not erase any potential claim they have to the throne, it just puts her in even further danger by putting her right in the thick of that mess, risks her becoming a political hostage for the Blacks, and potentially pits her against her own brothers. It’s like Elizabeth of York and Henry VII all over again.

[@MRARCHIEMACK]

If Daemon was made the hand after Strong, could of also avoided this war.

[@amandaofhouserobinson6707]

And an extra comment for the algorithm gods! 🤘

[@theuniquerina]

Alicent wouldn't let Helaena marry Jacaerys, because she knew he was a barsted. Nothing about Reanera specifically. So she took it as an insult, because she knew the truth (or suspected the true). Helena and Jacaerys would have been the best couple.

[@TheDude1980]

I really liked this video David, but I’m one of those people who constantly need reminded to hit the like button, so do that! Cheers

[@Asdissifblu]

If Helaena married Jace, then Aegon and Aemond would of married the baratheon daughters.

[@JesseGolo]

So this is the second time in this franchise that conflict could have been avoided if a nephew just married his aunt.

[@antliveyabish9555]

Another great upload

[@dz_ssbm]

Great vid, love the content as always. In defense of Alicent though, the Velaryons being onboard seems like a major sticking point. She saw first hand how pissed off Corlys was the last time the crown married into the Hightowers. So I can see why she would think doing so again with the illegitimate child of the union that was supposed to repair the original insult could be a bad idea that just led to a different civil war. Even if they're playing nice while Viserys is alive, seems reasonable to think they are just waiting for him to die to push the issue. And with the Velaryon fleet and nanny on the same side would be more of a civil pummeling than the dance we end up with.

[@Lespritdelescali]

If that was the case, why wouldn't she be trying to marry her son to one of Laena's girls and take Corlys to her side?

[@shellyreena2192]

Wow what a great in depth informative breakdown....thank you so much 😀 💓

[@mzosoawesome5383]

I love your whole vibe okayyyyy

[@made-line7627]

How to Train Your Dragon, featuring Jace Baruchel P.S. Every time I see the picture of old Alysanne shown at 6:52, it reminds me of old Rose at the end of Titanic, when she throws the necklace into the ocean