Jag Rant: The Most Frustrating Retcon in Metal Gear Solid’s History

[@ballisticola]

Yeah, it was deliberate. It's not a retcon. It's the key piece of information that tells the player Rose is lying. After his memories of a child soldier come back he leaves and never returns to Rose. While he's away, Rose meets Campbell. They start the lie that John is Campbell's kid and that they are now married, to protect them from the Patriots. Campbell and Raiden never met...that's the point, not the problem.

[@GuyOnAChair]

Yup.

[@M1GarandMan3005]

So that whole story about him being drunk and sometimes covered in cuts and bruises was bullshit, too?

[@ballisticola]

@@M1GarandMan3005 There's no reason not to believe that. Just anything regarding Campbell. I fully believe he drank after his memories started coming back. Just not the part where Campbell was "worried".

[@gertytk5528]

Solid Snake being blond is probably the stupidest theory I've heard. He wasn't blond in Metal Gear or Metal Gear 2. In fact the only moment he was ever "blond" is the MGS1 briefing. Not even in Twin Snakes. And I don't know if you can really say it's blond, just something about the lighting or the art makes it look that way. By the way my favorite plot hole of all time is probably Liquid trying to kill Snake with a Hind, while his whole plan needs him alive. He even helps Snake survive as Master just moments before and after trying to kill Snake with Hind.

[@A-B101]

People make theories just for the sake of it, and then it spreads into people’s minds

[@arrmigliato]

Plus, the color of the hair in mgs1 briefing was confirmed by art director Yoji Shinkawa to be caused by the lighting effect they did in the drawing, but the hair always was brown

[@Pedroppl1]

I'm pretty sure that Campbell tells Snake to die his hair in the briefing, because it was the same color as Liquids' hair.

[@gertytk5528]

@@Pedroppl1 Nope. Snake himself says that he just wants to cut his hair. No mention about dye.

[@Freelancer837]

Exactly. It'd be silly when in MGS1 you literally have the story being "Snake has the dominant Big Boss genes, and Liquid has the recessive Big Boss genes" and then it'd be an issue that it wouldn't make sense how both would be blonde unless Big Boss was blonde, which he wasn't. Plus Snake was already a brunette in MG1 and MG2. Pliskin's original blonde hair was never supposed to be him going back to his natural hair color, it was supposed to be him pretending to be Liquid, just like how Pliskin was also supposed to be voice by Cam Clarke as well.

[@PierreDave85]

The Liquid Ocelot retcon,is,more important than that. In MGS3 we learn that the Sorrow (who can talk ton death, and can talk only ton Big Boss from death) is also the father of Ocelot. What’s means, that Ocelot could have a part of his father’s power but inactive. When he got the Liquid’s arms, the mix between the son of the Sorrow and a clone of Big Boss awakes the power of Ocelot, and that’s how Liquid Ocelot is born. In MGS4, they explain Liquid Ocelot with a completely different story.

[@drunk_famasmf5135]

I always thought this "Liquid Ocelot" was too absurd for MGS 2...It just a bit undermines the role of Ocelot as an antagonist, as it was shown in 4, V and even 1 and 2 he always was that almost perfect infiltrator, that cunningly manipulates people for the Partiots' will. Or so you think, because you'll never know his true alligiances, even if he works with Big Boss himself, and that's what keeps you on the edge whenever you meet him - unpredictability. You could think him being "posessed by Liquid" was just a show for Raiden to replicate the events from Shadow Moses, but that doesn't explain this "acting" for Solid Snake in the prologue. Or it was made to fool the Patriots...or the Patriots secretly infected him with nanomashines, that were mangling his psychie to make him think Liquid takes control...then he broke this control, met Eva, replaced his arm, decided to still play the part just to release his boyfri...i mean Big Boss from Patriots' coma and imprisonment... Maybe i think about it too much.

[@Beeyo176]

​@@drunk_famasmf5135 I think you're looking at it with the lens of hindsight. Ocelot's larger role in everything wasn't really fleshed out until MGS4. Maybe, arguably, MGS3, but even that was more an origin story for him and a way to explain why there was a ghost in his body. Liquid was more important to the story right up until Big Boss' lore dump at the end of MGS4.

[@gabrielandjavierpinales3689]

​@@Beeyo176 That's true. In the end of MGS1 Ocelot and Solidus were expecting Liquid to win against Solid Snake. Liquid is very important for Ocelot's mission.

[@Majinhero]

i think this As the case, but after the big shell incident ocelot knew the risk of liquid taking over became to great so he changed his arm to a mechanical one and then set his plan into motion by programming himself to still act like liquid but set on a straight path.

[@Beeyo176]

@@Majinhero That's my headcanon, too. Best of both scenarios.

[@SnipingIsAGoodJobMate]

I never paid attention to this line because in my head the quick explanation was "Oh, he is avoiding him because he didn't actually even meet the real Campbell, so he probably thinks the real Campbell may also be working with the Patriots, or simply doesn't want to interact with him because of the bad memories of being manipulated by his AI counterpart" or something along those lines lol

[@wikwayer]

Yeah that's good enough😂

[@itssonotover961]

No, avoiding it is the problem cause it only encourages these inconsistencies to keep going. Cause to them, it would just mean that they can make up whatever and no one will complain about it

[@TheFoxCoops]

Maybe Colonel Campbell briefly helped Raiden and Snake with rescuing Sunny from the Patriots

[@JaguarKing]

@@TheFoxCoops Big Mama (Eva) helped Raiden to find Sunny, and Snake doesn’t know that based on previous codec call.

[@I_D86]

i think there is missing information here about jack himself and roy and that missing puzzle should be in metal gear rising, but you know that kojima production ain't work at story in that game and mgr became non canon :( so i think that mgr should've told us about jack's past, work at roy and became prequel to mgs4... UPD: sorry for my bad english

[@WednesdayMan]

*Metal Gear Solid Rising. we never got Metal Gear Solid Rising. (the game Kojima intended to make, instead we got Metal Gear Rising Revengeance)

[@lex_4242]

@@WednesdayMan if you didn't know raidens story about infiltrating the patriots lab etc was supposed to appear in mgs4 first but got later (never) recycled for mgs rising and raiden was even considered being a playable character in mgs4 in its early cycle going by the many unused concept arts that later got reused for rising

[@axelquintana2000]

The worst retcon is madnar being alive and portable ops being omitted with pw, despite ilustrating fox's rebellion in mgs4.

[@wes773105333]

If I remember correctly, wasn't the relationship that Rose and Campbell also revealed to be staged as a way to throw off the Patriots? It could just be that she was given a cover story that wasn't exactly the truth. I don't like this retcon, but in a series full of unreliable narrators, it's kind of to be expected. I was happy to see what they did with Raiden in Rising Revengance. I know it's not cannon but that game is so awesome and Raiden not being able to just settle down and be a family man after all he has been through makes a lot of sense.

[@blakekeys-ec4vr]

There's nothing in Revengeance that contradicts canon and Konami is only interested in bullshit now but remake news is something but I seriously doubt they'll make a game continuing Raiden's story

[@ragtagzagvee7675]

Jack met the real Roy AFTER mgs2 he never quit being a soldier unlike snake where he officially left

[@NewChannel-lf1io]

I think you are forgetting a very important aspect about Raiden in MGS2...the guy's memories of the events are not exactly solid. For example, at the end of MGS2 when Raiden met Rose, he put his hand on her face and she put her hand on her stomach, implying that she was pregnant with Raiden's son, confirming it happened for real and they indeed had met and got intimate before the Big Shell incident and this contradicts a codec call with Snake where Raiden questioned that if even Rose exists. So basically, with Raiden saying that he never met the colonel in person isn't exactly reliable information because he wasn't even sure that Rose was real, but later turned out not only that she did...but she was already pregnant with his child at the end of MGS2....and considering that MGS2 was a game that's all about disinformation and questioning existing information, I wouldn't be surprised if Raiden was wrong about never meeting the colonel before (seeing he was wrong about not meeting Rose). So I don't think this is a case of retcon as much as it is a case of Raiden's memories not being reliable and the game wanting you to question reality.

[@JaguarKing]

@@NewChannel-lf1io Solid point, but still it fails to explain why Campbell is his Commanding Officer. Like I said in the video Campbell retired from the military after the events of Zanzibar Land. I fail to see where both could have met while Campbell was in Foxhound.

[@NewChannel-lf1io]

@@JaguarKing Keep in mind that Raiden wasn't really with Foxhound and that was just part of the simulation, even Snake who asked him "Are you Foxhound?" and Raiden said "That's right", Snake said to himself "Foxhound was disbanded" and this surprised Raiden. So it is possible that Campbell became his commanding officer under a different group AFTER the Big Shell incident (since MGS4 doesnt exactly pinpoint when Campell retired from being a colonel). Also it's true the colonel retired after Zanzibar land, but he returned to work on Shadow Moses, so I wouldn't put it past Cambpel being Raiden's commanding officer for one mission (like the rescuing of Sunny) similar to how he returned for Shadow Moses.

[@JaguarKing]

@@NewChannel-lf1io ok, seems logical but there is a problem, the shift in Raiden's character happen while Rose was pregnant. this is where Raiden stopped coming home. It would have been weird that he was working with Campbell and Snake to rescue Sunny. Plus one more thing. Raiden was able to rescue Sunny thanks to Big Momma. I don't think Campbell was there to command the operation. But I could be wrong. There is a missing piece and I believe it has something to do with Metal Gear Solid: Rising the cancelled game.

[@NewChannel-lf1io]

@@JaguarKing It wasn't specifically told when exactly Raiden stopped coming home, so it could have been anywhere from the first month of pregnancy to the ninth...alot can happen in nine month since that is a long time...so there is a possiblity he left for that mission during that period, then whatever he encountered on that mission caused him to start coming home drunk before leaving entirely. Also sure, Big Momma helped in that, but that doesn't automatically throw Campbell out of the picture...Snake got multiple people helping him out on his missions and Campbell could have been on codec like he usually do with Raiden. Also I agree...kinda wish we got that version of MGR over the one we got.

[@Gamer8585]

My take: Raiden wasn't recruited into FOXHOUND, he was recruited by the Patriots into "FOXHOUND" (Fauxhound?) With Solidus having gone rouge The Patriots would need a counter and who better to fight than Solid Snake. They couldn't get Snake, but they did know of Solidus' activites in Libera and they got his best solider, Jack, and decided to turn him into snake. This would allow them to neutralize Solidus' threat, and provide a POC for the S3 plan. Reconstitute FOXHOUND as a virtual structure, bring Jack in, assign him the codename "Snake", put him through VR training styled after Solid Snake's missions (Outer Heaven, Zanzabarland, Shadow Moses, Tanker), use Fatman to have Dead Cell reach out to Solidus and orchestrate the Big Shell incident, and send "Snake" in to resolve the situation. Raiden was probably talking to Rose about his traning and mentioned Col. Campbell several times, and he likely didn't talk much about how Roy was just an AI because even he couldn't be sure what was real during the mission. It's highly likely IMO that Snake introduced Raiden to the real Roy Campbell after the events of MGS2, but never clarified the situation to Rose and she's still under the impression that he was a part of FOXHOUND with Roy being his CO. Or even Kojima had difficulty keeping MGS2's story straight.

[@diaroxflash5123]

Post S3, I could see the patriots (they're still active after all) organizing things to end the exercise and pull campbell back as jack's commander. In that way they can hide any traces of their extensive contact with jack, and fool any high rank in the military snooping around the incident. As for jack avoiding roy, that fits perfectly I'll be honest. Imagine how weird it is to talk to someone you think you knew but you actually didnt but theres some commonalities etc....Im sure raiden is gonna be weirded out and be reminded with all the nightmare that was big shell. I agree that the line is weird as it is, but im sure it can easily be corrected by filling the events between the two games.

[@JaguarKing]

@@diaroxflash5123 maybe that’s what the original concept of Metal Gear Solid Rising was. Since it’s events happen between 2 and 4. But then again. The shift in Raiden’s character happens during Rose pregnancy. It doesn’t make sense. Good observation though.

[@M1GarandMan3005]

The Metal Gear Solid Database says that Jack and Rose's meeting for the first time was planned, and not a coincidence. But yet, when we see Raiden almost damn near die they go back to saying their meeting was a coincidence, an "amazing" coincidence mind you. So, was the AI lying to Jack this whole time and that their meeting up was actually innocent and not planned? Was it all just a ruse just to demoralize Jack towards the end of the game in hopes to cause him to fail in his fight against Solidus?

[@GrimmShadowsII]

Not sure who would want him to fail. Fake Campbell was part of the Patriots network and they assigned Raiden the mission to stop Soldius because he turned against them. Maybe Ocelot since he was helping Soldius but its hard to tell if he was really helping Soldius or was just spying fir the Patriots on him and even if he was helping we don't know for sure how much of the Patriots' plans he was really in on as the same game had him say S3 program was one thing but the Patriots AI told Raiden it was something else. It has been awhile since I played the game so I might not remember everything correctly.

[@philholm9017]

I feel like it was also just a part of rose's lie to persuade snake to not tell raiden about her. Maybe it was snake who missed the obvious contradiction (he's getting old). Rose probably met campbell through her connections and asked for help. Meanwhile raiden with his not so solid memory, actually believed all this affair thing to make sense.

[@BadassRaiden]

Someone else said it was deliberate and I agree. Snake doesnt know anything official about Raiden's mission or how it was even brought to the attention of Raiden, and frankly, neither do we. We know he was actually in the military and had VR training, thats about it. He must have interacted with some official military officers at some point, because he had to be injected with nanomachines and the government at that point was the only one who had access to them. Whether the Big Shell incident was brought to his attention before he was injected is not explained. He was either told about it officially, or he was simply a member of the military, was injected with nanomachines, and the Patriots manipulated his psyche from the first moment to think he was being commanded by Roy Campbell even before we are introduced to them. We don't know this and neither does Snake. In the meantime between the end of Shadow Moses and meeting Raiden, because he officially died after Shadow Moses, he has no further contact with Campbell, presumably until MGS4, and no further contact with the military. So he may not know that Foxhound is disbanded officially, and he has no idea if Roy actually came out of retirement again to take command of Raiden's mission. We obviously know he didn't, but Snake doesn't, and because he doesn't know and because Rose and Campbell are pretend to protect her and her and Raiden's son from the Patriots, she can tell Snake whatever she wants about Raiden previously, and he has no knowledge to the contrary. It's not retconned and it also fits with the narrative of her being secretive trying to protect herself and her son.

[@spyrochrisgaming]

Wait, How do you know Raiden never met Campbell? You are just assuming that based on MGS2 but we don't know for sure if they met or not. Stop assuming things that haven't gotten been confirmed. That's your own headcannon and fanfic. Literally you're just assuming things here. No.

[@NewChannel-lf1io]

There is also the fact that Raiden's memories aren't reliable to begin with considering he couldn't even remember that Rose existed and questioned it during a codec call conversation with Snake.

[@stormagedden785]

Why do you think Raiden avoided Roy?

[@BigBoss1292]

iight relax

[@YukiColburn]

6:33 Damn, he must've used extremely good AI for his headcanon/fanfic... The voiceover is so similar to the actual game! While Raiden is an unreliable narrator, it's more proof of his claims than you disregarding it. Rose also saying he "ignored him" might also have some implications, depending on your pov.

[@27mayanman]

They key dialogue Jaguar King is missing is the line Rose said leading up to this Retcon, as Jaguar King puts it, which is “After the Big Shell incident…” See, Raiden never met Roy Campbell before or during the events of the Big Shell incident, but they could’ve met after. This would’ve been explained if we would’ve gotten the Metal Gear Rising game Kojima’s team was working on, which the plot timeline would’ve been set in the events between MGS 2 and MGS 4. And, as far as the mention of FoxHound as Raiden’s unit, Raiden probably told Rose before the Big Shell incident that his unit was FoxHound, but not mention to her they disbanded when he went on the mission to save Sunny from the Patriots, to make the mission look official like he still has a job, even though he was doing it on his own going off intel he got from Roy Campbell, and therefore Campbell faked his marriage to Rose to watch over Rose and little Jack.

[@FernandoMMuniz]

Meryl says and shows that the millitary grade nanomachines allows the SOP to share eye sight, emotions, etc, while being monitored by them (Patriots). From that, would it be safe to assume that when Rose said that she "pretended" to be married to Campbell, that was a plot hole, or she's lying about the fact that she had to actually cheat on Raiden because their eyes and senses are being monitored?

[@nekorodeo]

Why would a retired colonel and a former analyst need military grade nanos? Just because they’re being monitored by the Patriots doesn’t mean they have the same nanos as the soldiers.

[@FernandoMMuniz]

@@nekorodeo Rose is also a spy that fed the Patriots' AI with very intimate information about Raiden's life. It can't be his brain's nanomachines because he didn't know she was pregnant. It's also difficult to believe that they wouldn't be more far more thorough with the threat.

[@Metallumnigrummortis]

The line where shes like, He was his commanding officer but he just avoided him was always interpreted by me and some friends that it was Kojima throwing shots at everyone who bitched about the long codec conversations in the previous games.

[@jo3y960]

This can be easily explained with Rose still trying to keep the nature of her relationship with campbell a secret so she lied to snake, trying to keep up appearances. Or it could be another way to use MGS2 to throw off the player from the ending of MGS4 when Rose reveals it was all a lie. I dont think Kojima was undermining 2, i think he was just lying to the player so that the ending is more impactful.

[@ghosttf1561]

Remember raiden was talking to an ai generated colonel and rose along with false memoriesofthem implantedin his brain. He never met the colonel in real life and may still be a bit messed up in the head without realizing it. The effects being likely similar to dementia or something.

[@itsgregoire7175]

My best working theory is that Campbell learned about the big shell incident via snake and he felt bad about the whole thing so he went and met them in real life. But still thats bad

[@ikmnification5737]

Don't think it's a retcon, it's meant to show Raiden's uncertainty of what was real after The Big Shell incident; both with Rose, Campbell and the world. At the start of MGS2, it comes across that Raiden had been trained in a program lead by "Campbell" to train a soldier with VR in the shadow of Solid Snake; thus the reason to change Raiden's code name from Snake to Raiden. At some point during his program, he must've told Rose he was being trained by Campbell, but in his post MGS2 trauma while trying to piece together the realities of the world, he didn't take the time to tell her the Campbell he knew was AI.

[@trogdorrules]

I wonder about the addition of this line. I'm sure Kojima remembered that he initially wrote that Campbell and Jack had never met. I also know that Kojima consistently wanted to end the series, and maybe this was just a bit of dialog that slipped past and they just didn't care to correct it. I guess it's also entirely possible that they could have met right after MGS 2 and worked together briefly, but that seems like a stretch.

[@jonathanterol4528]

Hmm…I hear you, but wait… Roy Campbell could still be Raiden’s or Jack’s Commanding Officer, even though he may have never met him in person. It’s called the chain of Command. Raiden was just a VR trainee, he didn’t have actual military field experience, apart from being a child soldier, which doesn’t count, before the Big Shell. Roy Campbell, on the other hand, was a seasoned military commander, who worked with special military for decades, most notably FOXHOUND. Notice that it was Raiden who said that he never met the Colonel in person. Now also consider that he clearly lied or hid the truth from Solid Snake that he was with FOXHOUND. But so did Solid Snake pretend to be a Navy Seal at the Big Shell, this is the world of tactical espionage after all. You’re assuming that Campbell went into retirement after Shadow Moses, but said he was already retired from the military. Remember during the Shadow Moses incident; he said that he could still pull a few strings or still had some “friends in high places” who owed him a favor. This implies he needs to be socially active or in frequent contact with former colleagues in order to make that possible. Also, Roy Campbell was retired as a commander of operations but not as an advisor, as we learn in the Guns of the Patriots. So his role or involvement might be indirect though still active. So, it’s not necessarily wrong, let alone completely wrong.

[@hyperbolicechochamber]

I'm glad I'm not alone in my frustration over how this was handled. MGS4 seems like more of a continuation of snake eater than sons of liberty. I have to say though, Do those illustrations really count as evidence of Solid Snake's hair color? I always thought it was just a lighting effect and that Liquid displays the recessive blonde phenotype unlike Solid.

[@minicashproductions]

i always thought that going past mgs2 was always bound to have retcons since mgs2 was so convoluted but i agree the act with colonel campbell and rose talking to you is a struggle for me to get through since they completely pick apart mgs2 like they were just making stuff up to suit the narrative.

[@Cybothron]

Wouldn't they have met AFTER MGS2? and yes, it would have been extremely weird for Raiden to meet the real man.

[@MrKrewie]

lmao i mustve missed this entirely or didnt think about this, good catch 😅

[@Spazbo4]

I figured that we could never believe anything she ever said in this game because she was always trying to protect her son from the patriots

[@Garcia1995]

A los japoneses les gusta el tema de amnesia, quizá demasiado, creo que el único metal gear que no indaga mucho en ello es MGS3.

[@JayEm1325]

I never understood this. Campbell was an AI in MGS2 so what the fuck is happening?

[@laurenkaitlyn6341]

Any retcon can be explained as the Patriots AI telling their version of "true" events.

[@TheMrCHELL]

Or maybe Kojima just forgot about all this, and it's not really a retcon, but genuine mistake. Dude didn't really wanted to make this game but his bosses and fans (with death treats) commanded him to.

[@NewChannel-lf1io]

Well, it could also be that Raiden's memories of the events aren't reliable considering he didn't remember that Rose existed and she was pregnant with his child.

[@stormagedden785]

What if Raiden met Roy after the big shell incident. Rose does say that he became unstable after the big shell. Roy taking after Raiden might have been due to his previous work with fox hound. He might have been brought in because of Raiden's mental instability. Also did you ask the question, why would Raiden avoid Roy in the first place?

[@yesimBata]

I choose to believe that that sentence is a part of Rose's created ruse to trick Raiden into her now being with Roy. This is probably not true, but harms my enjoyment of the franchise way less.

[@Pensive_Scarlet]

I'm glad you highlighted this. I think maybe there's more to it than what it first seems. Worth thinking about. ;D

[@NewChannel-lf1io]

I think it's just Raiden's memory not being reliable since he couldn't even remember that Rose was real and she was pregrant from him (in a codec call with Snake he questioned if Rose even existed and was shocked when he saw her at the end of MGS2).

[@joshuaschaffer6371]

Solid snake never had blonde hair. It was just a lighting effect. He had brown hair in metal gear and metal gear 2. Also Raiden very likely met cambel afterward. He likely had some involvement in finding sunny. Also Rose is lieing as well. They intended to revisit Raiden saving sunny in it's own game. That never ended up happening but that was laid out in mgs 4 pretty clearly. As for revolver ocelot and the liquid thing. Idk it ended up sorta being relevant in a way. I was always thrown off by the arm thing it was the only thing in mgs2 that made me go hold up, what... why? But I ultimately liked where it ended up just wish 4 had more gameplay in it. And that the liquid melee fight felt more refined. It was easier to just pin him in a corner for the whole first stage. Then just dodge the heavy attack in the second and hit him with the heavy attack over and over. Then in the third just don't hold the block to much and be aggressive with the combo attack. Could have been more fluid and fun. I didn't feel skilled at the game beating it. I felt like I exploited a weakness in the way the fight was designed. But playing it on extreme this was the only way I found to be consistent about winning.

[@arrmigliato]

This most likely was written by the writing team since it's a codec call and Kojima didn't write those anymore at the time, but it's still the most annoying retcon in the whole saga as far as im concerned

[@cfilorvyls457]

Ooh, I guess that's why I felt like mgs4's codecs were the weakest of the bunch.

[@arrmigliato]

@@cfilorvyls457 yeah honestly after MGS3 you could actually feel the drop in quality in the writing during certain dialogues, since the work was so fragmented.

[@Freelancer837]

@@cfilorvyls457 Sorta, but not exactly. The codecs were always handled by someone else, not Kojima. Just the people doing MGS4's were different from the previous games, but it was never Kojima in 1-3

[@arrmigliato]

@@Freelancer837 it was Kojima in 1. Fukushima came in when the most of the script was already written. You're right about 2-3

[@dylano9950]

dog!!! i've been watching you for years via gdq and I need to say, your content recently has been really good. your speaking voice has evolved! keep it up king

[@Gorgonzeye]

That whole story is a lie and one of many examples where a large falsehood is deliberately included to reveal (early) to more observant players that what is being said is bogus and then you get you're "I knew it" moment at the "let me spell it out for you" style reveal later.. It's not a retcon at all. Metal Gear is deeply inspired by the actions of the US deep state and one of the running themes is to not simply take somebody's word. Nearly every game has the player operating under false pretenses because their character believed something that was simply said to them without any evidence.

[@Freelancer837]

I'd say stuff like Big Boss betraying the US in Peace Walker but then somehow being allowed back or how in MGS5 you have it so the Patriots AI were made in the 70's/80's instead of the 2000's are much worse and change a lot more, but really, while EVERY single Metal Gear game has plenty of retcons, really you can just take your pick of any from MGS4, PW, and MGS5 as the worst ones. MGS4 is when Kojima did not even try to pretend to keep the games consistent, and he kept that going forward with every game he worked on after that too. That said, this is one of the most "whatever" choices you could pick from the three games

[@chinchindaisukiman]

I wonder if there is a different nuance to the line in the original Japanese?

[@muhammeterdemakbulut]

metal gear fans making a whole ass video after they learn everything after peace walker is just a simulation to make big boss army be like:

[@iCantPickaNamej]

Uhm. Ill be honest with you. I totally understand whybthis would sort of stick outnof place and its entirely possible this was a rare and random act of Kojima lazyness. With that said its entirely possible that the patriots assigned campbell to raiden for the auspices of cover for the big shell mission that the S3 plan conceived. And maybe AFTER the the end of mgs2 Campbell ACTUALLY took on that roll to stay under the radar with the patriots and protect rose and lil john. So he could in actuality have been his CO. However brief. Technically raiden was never in foxhound either so the whole thing is fuckin nuts lol

[@A-B101]

MGS4 did not respect MGS2 at all in many aspects

[@ColdheartDunther]

I played MGS4 just once and there was so much infodump that I only remember the most important stuff that happened, so I never noticed this until now. Could it be a translation error maybe? Are there other references to this event in the game? Does the story work nonetheless if we ignore this sentence?

[@Mobius_Ap3x]

For me is one of the biggest retcons with Olga's child LOL 😎

[@Sams.Videos]

The first time I played MGS2 I was confused at seeing Campbell back in action since he said in MGS1 he quit. I first thought that was a mistake of the part of Kojima forgetting about his retirement. That detail made me lost interest in the game. For me continuity is primordial in storytelling. It is only when i decided to finish the game for the sake of finishing it that i discovered the twist. This is an example of a bad twist that can turn people off at first sight, even lose interest in your game/story.

[@alicevioleta3184]

it isn't a bad twist.

[@Sams.Videos]

@@alicevioleta3184 It is not a bad twist. It makes sense. It is pretty good actually. But the delivery was aweful. Never did Snake question Campbell being the head of Raiden's mission. The first thing Snake should have logically said to Raiden was that Fox Hound was dismantled and Roy retired. I'm pretty sure Snake would have even tried to talk to Roy through the intermediate of Raiden or even call up the real Roy to check out what is happening.

[@itssonotover961]

​@@Sams.VideosYeah, that's a missed opportunity

[@TBrizzle01]

I don't have to watch this and I can tell you Venom Snake was the worst retcon in the series lol. Kojimbo dropped that on us in the end of the very last game of the series with no fanfare, follow-up, or anything. It was just there to explain how BB survived Outer Heaven but this is the same series where a bisexual Romanian runs on water and up walls lol.

[@A-B101]

If you think that’s all that plot twist is about, you should play the game again

[@novic329]

Mgs4 changed so much for the worse, I don't like its retcons

[@MelonGearSolid]

Dr Clark better be mentioned here...

[@JaguarKing]

as much as I want to talk about this, it's a mistranslation, not an actual retcon. Just like Olga's child being a he. both were gender neutral in the Japanese version.

[@MelonGearSolid]

@@JaguarKing AHH I did not know that! I always thought it would have been due to Dr Clarke working through a proxy. Mistranslation is a better answer 😂

[@FernandoMMuniz]

​@@JaguarKing But ain't there a MGSV:TPP tape where Huey clarifies that Dr. Clark is so anti-social that no one knows their gender? Is the tape american only?

[@FernandoMMuniz]

​@@JaguarKingIn case of Sunny, it could just be Snake assuming the child's gender wrongly.

[@JaguarKing]

@@FernandoMMuniz true, but that is not the point, like I said it's a mistranslation. that happen on the western versions of the game, which makes it not a retcon. they just decided to capitalize on that miss with the Phantom Pain.

[@simonjunior3688]

I'm sorry dude but your whole intro skit and reaction is was too over the top, and silly.. there is 100s of aspects of this game that are unanswered. Maiden could have met him after TSOL incident, easily, or had been assigned to THE Roy Cambel prior to the AI filling in. And therefor avoids the real Roy as a result. So no. It's not 'w'RoNg' it's unanswered. Whatever helps squeeze out an MGS video I guess..

[@CerealKiller]

She is talking about the events AFTER the conclusion of MGS2 btw, this is not a retcon.

[@paer76]

It implied that Raiden met Roy after MGS2 in an untold mission

[@mapuggs]

lol

[@tapetwo7115]

The video creator of this doesn’t understand Metal Gear Solid 2 or 4 lol.

[@TheAzurefang]

Campbell indicates that he does indeed know Raiden, and no one ever suggests that Raiden did not meet Campbell at some point. I don't see this as a retcon

[@TheVisitorSNAFU]

Kojima is a hack that makes great games. Also he has

[@georgehouliaras7239]

The worst retcon is the entire series is called Metal Gear Solid V.

[@RazgrizFllaga]

MGS V didnt retcon anything.

[@FiveFiveSixer]

Meeoooowwww

[@FallFromGrace65]

Dislike ;)

[@RossOfRoni]

Hideous writing, leaving plot holes on purpose everywhere like traps in the hangar B2F in Shadow Moses.

[@NewChannel-lf1io]

Raiden's memories are not to be taken as a fact. The man couldn't even remember that Rose was real and she's carrying his son in her womb, so what are the odds he actually met the colonel, but he just doesn't remember it?

[@RossOfRoni]

@@NewChannel-lf1io Oh he knows Roy, like you say he just doesn't remember. Rose as we know her definitely is not a flesh and blood person. That's an AI construct.

[@NewChannel-lf1io]

@@RossOfRoni She did appear as flesh and blood at the end of MGS2, when Raiden holds her face, she put her hand on her stomach, implying she was pregnant. The fact that Raiden wasn't sure she was real makes me question his statement about never meeting the colonel (be it in person or not).

[@RossOfRoni]

@@NewChannel-lf1io That scene was not happening in reality. Raiden's changed body is the hint. He's not sure if she's real because he's always in VR when physically present with her. The same thing happened in MGS4s ending. That scene in the room was so weird because it's being seen from a VR perspective.

[@NewChannel-lf1io]

@@RossOfRoni I think you're speculating, because Rose was indeed pregnant with Raiden's son and gave birth in MGS4...so I think it's safe to say that scene was indeed real and not a VR simulation. Same thing for the scene in the hospital room, I don't see any evidence to support your VR theory.

[@MavisRecon]

I'm not watching this whole video, buuuut Hideo Kojima's "attention to detail" as you put it would be better put as "attention to intentional cognitive dissonance"

[@CerealKiller]

Rose is talking about the events AFTER MGS2, hence why she mentioned how Jack/Raiden started drinking and being generally unstable. How are you people this dense?