Why doesn't Britain have double decker trains? Well, except for that one time.

[@user-eg8pv2om7j]

There was a triple decker train, but that's another storey.

[@SIMONWINTER-m6d]

The top deck was a Ladies only space.That's a J.K. Rowling triple decker Ladies spaces joke !!

[@mikeball6182]

@@SIMONWINTER-m6d You can both go and stand in the corner.

[@SIMONWINTER-m6d]

@@mikeball6182 can I hover?

[@mikeball6182]

@@SIMONWINTER-m6d So long as you stay outside of the window

[@SIMONWINTER-m6d]

@@mikeball6182 Not only is freezing cold out there but there's no corner !!

[@sea80vicvan]

7:25 "But on the whole, when it comes to two-level trains, the deck's stacked against them." Come for the historical information on trains, stay for the puns.

[@ZonkerRoberts]

Well with Jago, behind the main topic there's always another storey to be told.

[@DrivermanO]

There was another one just after that one! You are the pressure ventilation to my 4DDs upper deck. Or am crediting JH with a pun tyoo far?

[@nicolaschung916]

The RER A in Paris is the busiest commuter line in Europe and runs double decker trains only. Essential factors are of course a large loading gauge, but also the coaches' configuration, with 3 large double doors each and a high proportion of standing area. That being said, it's stilll murder at rush hour !

[@RC534]

Yes, RER C as well. I was amazed when visiting Paris I took the RER and saw this double decker train ariving at an underground section of the line!

[@obelic71]

The Dutch states railway did lease in 1978 for a year a SNCF VB2N set to test the posibility for using doubledecker trains on the heavily congested commuter lines. The Dutch railwaysystem is more an Urban S Bahn type railwaysystem then a classic long distance railway At first passengers weren't used to use the upperdeck at all. Also the small doors/staircases and the 2-3 seat arangment wasn't liked. The VB2N set was also to heavy for fast accelleration and breaking between frequent stops. After that Test lessons were learned and DDM-1 was designed and build. Alsthom in France did build special locomotives NS class 1700 (SNCF class BB7200 on steroids) The carriages were finaly assembeld by Talbot and Bombardier and put into service in 1985. They were so succesfull that early 1990's the 2nd improved generation was ordered The 3th generation became an EMU version of doubledecker trains. Nowadays passengers prefer the upper deck on the doubledecker trains.

[@AL5520]

The RER also has a max frequency of a train every 3 minutes (not all day of course) so the, lower frequency, thing is not becaus of having a double decker, at least not if you desigh the trains well so the only real reason, that can be addressed but won't in the UK, is the loading gauge.

[@RC534]

@@AL5520 yes, a large vestibule and large doors also really help a lot. As a Dutchie I also traveled a lot on the DDM's and it's EMU succesors that @obelic71 mentions. These trains, especially the DDM's have rather spacious vestibules and wide doors. Something which is in fact made possible off-course by the trains being double decker so that space can be used for that while retaining an acceptable capacity.

[@nicolaschung916]

@@RC534 absolutely though much less efficient for (un)loading passengers. Only RER B remains with single deck trains but, as they have been telling us for the past ten years, that shall change very soon.

[@marsgal42]

I've ridden double-decker trains in Sydney, but it's clear the network was built from the ground up to accomodate them. When you get on the train you walk on to a mezzanine at the end of the car, steps up to the upper deck and down to the lower deck. Later: I stand corrected. The Aussies got it right the first time around. More power to them! 🇦🇺 I know they have issues with different track gauges to this day, dating back to railway construction in different colonies.

[@RichardWatt]

Same idea in France.

[@MrLewis555]

Same in The Netherlands

[@Wildcard71]

I've seen that on a train built for the Netherlands.

[@JoeyFoo]

This is a very common design for modern double deck trains. The doors are at the end of the car, and that area is located above the train's bogie. You then descend to the lower deck, which is situated below platform height and between the bogies.

[@archstanton6102]

Also in New York, across the US on Amtrak and in Germany.

[@phaasch]

"in Britain, we have an unusually small loading gauge. I guess that's what comes of getting there first" I K Brunel: " have you got it yet?"

[@simonbrunning-zc2lh]

To be fair though, wide gauge doesn't mean loading gauge. Doesn't mean double-deck standard-gauge cars could fit on Brunel's GWR

[@MontytheHorse]

I K Brunel knew the difference between loading and track gauge! 😀

[@phaasch]

@@simonbrunning-zc2lh Before the advent of the "convertible" carriages, GWR carriages were significantly wider. When broad gauge was abolished, what it left was a huge distance between running lines- what is the "6ft" everywhere else, was more like the 10ft on GWR lines. Over time, this became eroded by widened platforms and realignment of tracks, but the space, in width at least, was there.

[@user-wm3hu7lo1g]

@@simonbrunning-zc2lh To be fair though, he did couple a wider gauge with a larger gauge, as depicted in the video ;)

[@stuartparks8094]

@@phaasch They weren't a lot wider, Brunel's logic was that having the weight between the wheels would be more stable. And besides, height is the issue, rather than width, and they certainly weren't any higher

[@reknakfarg7252]

HS1 was built to European loading gauge so double decker's between Paris and london could start running immediately if eurostar had any interest

[@ce1834]

Wonder how that will go with tunnel safety regulations. The newer e320 Eurostar trains are quite a bit bigger too, compared to the ones before

[@asdaneedsfunds]

As it stands train capacity is not the limiting factor for Eurostar - terminal and border control capacity is. Unless and until the UK joins the Schengen area, double deck stock cannot be considered

[@imsbvs]

One of the possible new entrants to this route has proposed using double deck trains, hopefully opening Stratford to international travel as well as using Ebbsfleet & Ashford too.

[@riccriccardoricc]

Eurostar is a scam. They would never do anything to make it a bit better, let alone cheaper. I'm really looking forward to opening up the tunnel to competition, normal fares and possibly other routes would be great.

[@carlteacherman194]

@@asdaneedsfunds N'importe quoi !

[@gymnasiast90]

The Dutch railways used to have double deckers on commuter routes (DDM and DD-AR), even before putting them on the InterCity routes. The boarding time issue was very simply solved by just having very wide double-leaf doors that slid open quickly. So that’s not a reason why they couldn’t be used in the UK, it’s really just the loading gauge.

[@dennisb9638]

Exactly. Dutch IntercityTrains are basically commuter trains too, given the short distances between cities. And double decker trains work really well.

[@ElvenSpellmaker]

I don't get why the loading guage would stop it? The width has nothing to do with height?

[@obj_in_motion]

@@ElvenSpellmaker The loading gauge is about both the width and the height

[@IAMPLEDGE]

@@ElvenSpellmaker well the thing has got to balance. Taller narrower trains might struggle in wind.

[@Outfrost]

Came here to mention the Netherlands and Germany. While most commuter trains in the Netherlands are single-decker, NS makes extensive use of double-deckers on intercity routes, and the added capacity can very much be felt. DB Regio, on the other hand, runs hundreds of double-deckers on commuter services, with great success.

[@ZonkerRoberts]

Superb shot around 3:00 with St. Paul's reflection in the Thameslink train window!

[@SirHeinzbond]

as repular commuter here in Zürich/Switzerland i can tell the Double Decker trains have the big pro of additional seating places, but the entering and leaving is is always a pain in the you know where... there is always one last passenger at "my" door who comes down the stairs as whole Switzerland Trains will wait for him (or her) but overall i love them to use...

[@davidellis2021]

Yes, I like the Swiss double deckers. Great view from the top, nice and cozy below. Not tried the newly refurbished ones yet.

[@SirHeinzbond]

@@davidellis2021 well the new ones smell also new, but i didn't had the chance to test the seats, cause i used them only for 2 station trips...

[@personalsigh]

I take the word cant as an insult too. But then I'm dyslexic and I often hear the wrong vowel sound.

[@drzander3378]

@personalsigh, If a philosopher ever calls you ‘a real Kant’, that’s a reference to Immanuel Kant, the Enlightenment thinker. It’s a compliment, not an insult!

[@routeman680]

Jim Davidson's 1995 Cinderella pantomine. Cinderella: Oh, Buttons, you can't! Buttons: What did Cinderella just call me, boys and girls?

[@SIMONWINTER-m6d]

See you next Tuesday !!

[@carlteacherman194]

Dyslexia is about what you CAN do differently.

[@dernwine]

Side note: the Loading Gauge in the UK is why, although Challenger tanks can be loaded onto a train in Dover, and transported all the way to the Russian border by train, and although their bases in Salisbury Plain have loading ramps, they have to be moved by road from Tidworth to Dover.

[@luketyson333]

There's also the double decker car transporters in the Channel Tunnel too, of course.

[@peteshort9021]

I recall travelling on a DD to Slade Green when I was very small. I’m surprised they stayed in service for as long as they did!

[@norbitonflyer5625]

They weren't so bad that they were unusable, (and the SR was chronically short of suburban rolling stock in the 1950s and 1960s as the earliest suburban units wore out faster than replacements could be built) but they weren't good enough to build any more.

[@Ed-kv2vb]

So do I, Pete - at school in the early 1960s, commuting from Abbey Wood to London Bridge. When recalling this in the past I was listened to sceptically, such that I began to think I'd imagined it! Excellent work as ever from Jago.

[@colinmanning-nx2kg]

Travelled on this in early 1960s Charing Cross to Dartford line via Bexleyheath although normally it ran on the loop line to Dartford. As stated in video problem was the carriage was divided into small compartments and they had individual slam doors and it got unpleasantly hot in warmer weather as no open windows in upstairs area . Generally were unsuitable and unpopular in such a busy commuter route

[@bingbong7316]

I vaguely recall managing one journey on a 4-DD as a young teenager and being fairly unimpressed. They weren't built for comfort. Nor speed, come to that.

[@radiosnail]

My father caught these a few time from Bexleyheath to London Bridge. He told me that travelling on the upper deck was the only time he had ever felt claustrophobic. Once their failure had been established, BR lengthened platforms to take 10 coaches, the also had the expense of modifying a few bridges.

[@MaxProduction16]

Funny that the experimental double decker was called the 4DD, because Melbourne Australia also had a failed experimental double decker called the 4D back in the 90s. Clearly if we want to get double decker trains to work we need to come up with a better naming scheme.

[@randomscb-40charger78]

It was called the 4D as short for Double Deck Development & Demonstration and only failed due to how it was designed and built from its systems rather than it having two decks on a rail system that has only had single-level rolling stock.

[@hammerth1421]

Call it a Dosto (Doppelstockwagen) and it'll work, I promise

[@swedneck]

after pondering this for 30 minutes i think maybe 4DDD might work? if we're really desperate we could even go with something raunchy like 4DDDD

[@nathanw9770]

How about 4DDD?

[@DeannaAllison]

We have double-decker trains here in Austria (the Westbahn trains), and loading and unloading seems to be pretty efficient - in my experience, they really don't hang around for long on at the stations on the busy line running between Vienna via Linz and Salzburg to Innsbruck! Having said that, I have to admit that it's just my opinion; I haven't actually timed them! (And I love riding on the top deck with a view of the Alps.) The Westbahn double-deckers run on the same lines as lots of single-deckers (including Austria's ÖBB trains and trains from other countries.

[@notsmoothsteve]

Double decker trains work quite nicely on GO Transit, the commuter rail service in the Toronto area (that's the green and white train pictured in the video), but we have two major differences: a much taller loading gauge, and our most frequent service is every 15 minutes so no worries about a train being held up by the dwell time of the train ahead of it.

[@Bentcypress]

We have the same green and white trains in South Florida. When the train service was started in South Florida the trains were actually borrowed from Toronto. The service was started as an experiment to see if they would be accepted. They probed very popular. The South Florida TriRail is still TO's green and white.

[@SamAronow]

@@BentcypressSame with Metrolink in Southern California and Sounded in Washington.

[@grahamstubbs4962]

The kind of man that took "can't" as a personal insult. I'm afraid I've had to fall about laughing. My apologies. 🙂

[@Hiro_Trevelyan]

Tbh, the RER A is the proof that double-decker trains can work for commuter trains. It's the most used line in Europe and yes, the stairs and limited sets of doors (compared to the space available) make the train take a bit longer at station but the drawback is worth it for the extra capacity... if your line can accommodate it properly, since the RER A still manages to run trains every 2 minutes thanks to partial automation. Maybe for the Elizabeth line, in a few decades...? But I understand they're not suitable for most the UK.

[@ADAMEDWARDS17]

Even if the Elizabeth line tunnels were for double deckers, they could not then run beyond the portals as the rest of the line is on conventional routes, unless of course you rebuilt them at massive cost. HS1 and HS2 are the only European guage lines and only the new bits. There was a plan to run double deckers from London to Birmingham on HS2 at one time.

[@itechcircle9410]

RER A doesn't work. It should have been kept single decker.

[@jason38321]

Love seeing the GO train at 2:13. Many fond childhood memories on those. Double-decker trains are very common in North America - I guess one benefit of our big loading gauge. The specific coach pictured, the Bombardier Bi-level, is used all over the US and Canada, though GO Transit (pictured) is by far their largest operator. I think GO alleviates the dwell time issue because their train are so huge, with such high capacity, most people can sit down and you don't have to swim through the aisle to get in or out.

[@erniefu1610]

There is also the issue of platform width. A large swath of people alighting in a double decker will require a wide platform to accommodate them. Either you expand the station or you have to reduce the number of platforms. Toronto Union station had to reduce the number of platforms to create wider platforms for safety, which brings another set of problems.

[@Mark.Andrew.Pardoe]

Whato Jago, You've done it again. Rightly given Marples a bad mention but it was not him who closed the Great Central. The line was closed by the following Labour Government, the so-called friend of the railways. Which minister signed off the closure we will never know as the Great Central closure files have been "lost". Don't forget I write as the former Chief Archivist to the British Railways Board and handled the London Midland Region's closure files (they're are now at Kew). Apart from that, again another good video.

[@truckerallikatuk]

Ahh, yet more potentially embarrassing files lost in that flood Sir Humphrey Appleby mentioned.

[@jason__7]

@@truckerallikatuk It was a wonderful winter!

[@scottpeacock5492]

Labour and Ernest Marple were both in it together, they push for the Great Central line to be closed for the love of Roads and just look at the State of our Roads and Railways, Roads are fill with vehicles for all the motoring lovers and the Railways can't cope with the amount passengers commuting every year. The Railways needs improving and expanding too.

[@1258-Eckhart]

I name the guilty party: transport minister Barbara Castle.

[@MisterTea74]

Just noticed how fast the pan drops on the Thameslink train. Jeez that was quick, thought it would be more controlled. Cheers Jago, you are the pantograph to my third rail.

[@AllonKirtchik]

It just went *BOING* and the catenary was bouncing too

[@scratchchris]

Back in the 60s, I got the train to school from London Bridge - I was on the wrong line for the double deckers - but most days I'd see a double decker waiting at the signals. I always fancied trying going on one but never found out what route they were on.

[@Ed-kv2vb]

Going to school via LB, 1959-66, we probably coincided on the platform, @scratchchris - I actually remember travelling on one.

[@colinmanning-nx2kg]

Used more on loop line to Dartford from Charing Cross ( via Bexley) but also some on the Bexleyheath line to Dartford and few on line via Greenwich .

[@cantliff9]

Someone moves to one side, someone lets one go first, an old lady pushes past made my laugh so much - plenty of experience of trying to get on and off public transport and that is just a massive part of it. One perk of driving, I don't miss positioning myself to get to the door as we approach the required stop

[@bowlingbuddie]

Caught the DD train many times going to/from school from Eltham(Well Hall) to Waterloo,and as a schoolkid it was always upstairs.

[@derekp2674]

My grandparents lived near Eltham Park and I also rode the 4-DDs when visiting them.

[@Rileys1Way]

So basically if we built HS2 in full we could potentially have double decker trains 🤓

[@markstamp3937]

And if it had been planned to link to HS1 you could have ridden top deck from Manchester to Paris

[@xenon53827]

​@@markstamp3937 That's us isn't it? "Let's plan two high speed route into London but... Not link them up." Er is HS2 still going to Manchester? Hasn't that been cancelled as well yet? We will be lucky if it ever reaches Watford at this rate!

[@Bruce-h8w]

I travelled a few times on the double-decker, from Well Hall Eltham up to Charing X; my father much more often as a commuter. He disliked the upper deck intensely. Exiting in the rush-hour was a pain.

[@harrisonthorburn7415]

2:16 Hey those are my trains! I had the privilege of riding your trains when I was over in England a few years back, and I definitely have a case of rail-envy. We Canadians have much work to do. Much love from Toronto, Jago. Keep up the amazing work.

[@DalstonVinyl]

The French TGV ones are VERY nice indeed, I had an agreeable ride between Paris and Biarritz recently. Damn fast as well.

[@andrewyoung749]

meh, nowhere near enough room on the upper deck for luggage.

[@Quasihamster]

I can't help bu thinking a Stadler KISS or a Desiro HC would look stunning in CrossCountry colours.

[@TimWallace-j9d]

I wonder whether I'm the only person watching your video who travelled on the Southern's double decker train, as a child. I also saw it in service two or three more times,.always joined together to make an 8 car set.. We lived on the Bexleyheath line to Dartford. Dwell time at London Bridge in the peak must have been a challenge. I think, in latter years at least, it was only used in peak hours, and mainly on Blackfriars/Holborn Viaduct services, which my father used.

[@derekp2674]

I've also ridden those trains, going to or from Eltham Park.

[@Bruce-h8w]

Not quite. I'm 84. It was exciting for kids, not the tired businessman.

[@jamesdoggart3258]

I travelled on those cramped, uncomfortable, stuffy buckets as well. Nice idea, a few real life issues (as covered by Jago) got in the way.

[@Ed-kv2vb]

Seems there are several of us here who remember travelling on them, on the London Bridge to Dartford lines!

[@TruckingVideos]

I travelled on a 4DD from Eltham Well Hall to Charing Cross a few times.

[@crabtonia]

In 1981 I travelled from N Orleans to Houston & Los Angeles on Amtrak's Sunset Limited and from Seattle to Chicago on the Empire Builder, both of which were double-decked 'Superliners'...perfect for gazing at scenery as we trundled along, never more than 55mph but usually nearer 45...a grand experience...dgp/uk

[@francesjanegretton1270]

I'm 70 and I have a vague memory of seeing this train from my Grandparent's house in Sidcup. Their house backed onto a park which ran alongside the track. At night you could see the double decker lights as the train sped past.

[@sporkafife]

As a train nerd, since moving to Germany, I get as giddy as a child when my train will be a double decker

[@mosaloquendo]

0:14 I've never expected seeing a Double decker of the argentinian Sarmiento Line here, I took one of those when I was little and it was a fun experience. The Sarmiento Line has a broad gauge but its the second most congested line in the country, they didn't last much. I don't miss the TBA franchise though, except for that nice paintwork.

[@teaeff8898]

Hey the GO train! Nice! That’s what I use occasionally to go to downtown Toronto. 😄 Great view from the upper level.

[@mst4309]

I grew up in a Chinese city full of single decker buses, and I'm so used to them I still prefer the lower deck of buses in the UK. Later I moved to the UK full of single decker trains, and I'm so used to them I still prefer the lower deck of trains in mainland Europe. (Feels faster)

[@lazrseagull54]

I agree it feels faster on the lower deck. I think this is because it's closer to the ground than on a single decker.

[@mikeball6182]

Chinese students in Norwich always sit in the front seat upstairs on the bus

[@Sam_Green____4114]

What's the truncated line @01:14 ? It looks like a former junction ,with a double track line coming from the right ,and he line from the left joining it and then disappearing into the two tunnel entrances ?

[@paulketchupwitheverything767]

Smithfield Market / Snow Hill between Farringdon / Barbican / City Thameslink looking south east-ish. You can see one of the Barbican tower blocks towards the left. The rear windows of Smiths of Smithfield overlook those tracks.

[@namenamename390]

I've heard New Zealand has imported a few carriages from Britain and used them on their network, which is 1067mm narrow gague. So yeah, Britain's loading gague is really small.

[@n.bastians8633]

Loading gauge and track gauge are two different things and it's possible for networks of the same track gauge to vary wildly in loading gauge. In any case, NZ does have a smaller loading gauge than GB. Japanese trains (which like NZ's also run on Cape Gauge) are slightly less tall, but also slightly wider than GB trains.

[@namenamename390]

@n.bastians8633 I know loading gauge and track gauge are different, but generally narrow gauge railways have a smaller loading gauge than standard or broad gauge railways.

[@user-wm3hu7lo1g]

@@namenamename390 still, no surprise people assumed you mixed them up

[@namenamename390]

@@user-wm3hu7lo1g Yeah that's fair

[@simonwood6932]

Around 150 BR MK 2 carriages were exported to New Zealand from the Mid 1990s to mid 2000s (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_British_Rail_Mark_2_carriage). They were able to fit with in the NZ loading gauge by using 750mm dia wheels (in narrow gauge bogies) rather than the larger (900mm?) wheels used in their original standard gauge bogies.

[@TefiTheWaterGipsy]

I'd sooner they brought back some of the branch lines. I can't imagine double decker trains. I do like our double decker London buses though, I enjoyed that video as well. May your Christmas be decked, doubly, with Holly and cheer. Have a good one. 🎄

[@OofusTwillip]

2:13 - A GO (short for, "Government of Ontario") Train, the commuter service in the Greater Toronto Area, of Ontario, Canada. GO Train service began in 1967, with single-deck coaches, on a single route, between Pickering in the east, and Oakville in the west, with Toronto Union Station in the middle. Ridership increased so dramatically that double-decker coaches (white & chromium-green) were introduced in the late 1970s. The newer coaches are white & grass-green.

[@hurstinator]

Ok here goes. The 4DD does not really have anything based on the SUB. Very little is shared between the designs. The only things to my knowledge where the traction motors (on some), cab front window (opening) and the power controller. The chassis are a lower than SUB, at the front where the cab is the upper level is about the same height as a sub but where it lowers down was designed to gain that little extra height inside. Which means the centre buffers are lower than standard emu carriages. Also the body side profile is straight to gain as much space as possible, the sub was curved to gain the extra seat per compartment The braking system was unique to the DD using Westinghouse EP self‑lapping brakes so it could only connect up to itself. From what I understand for why it was kept in service so long was someone at BR (a accountant probably) said it needed to pay for itself. One other point to mention which was missed was the force ventilation system which was not very effective. I have been in one of the carriages on a hot day (private site) and it is like a greenhouse. Preservation, original plan to preserve unit 4001 but this was already in the process of being scrapped, 4002 was available still (both had electrically been stripped), a minimum of 3 carriages had to preserved to move the vehicle by rail as the two motors could not be connected up as they do not have buffer (rubbing plates instead, could be done with modification), a flyer based appeal was handed out (at the time) as was preserved at the South Eastern Steam Centre by 1972. the steam centre closed in 1976, to cut the long story short BR wanted the owner out (Some stuff had already been moved elsewhere) and called in the scrapmen about 8 years later, local residents where alerted what was going on as fireless loco northmet was being cut up and the middle carriage was burnt. The two motor carriages where moved elsewhere (one to Northampton and another private initially), by the mid 90s one of the motor coaches was transferred between private site, only more recently has the other carriage moved down to said private site. If you ever get the chance, i would recommend a visit to the NRM, they have a colour painting of the cutaway carriage and quite a few bits in the archive. I do have a video on my channel when the tree was removed from the front of one carriages. Sources, blood and custard, nrm archives, steam centre guide book

[@johnledingham852]

Very informative indeed dear Jaggo, for I have asked rhetorically the same question. You answered succinctly and logically.

[@Ian-q7r]

Another interesting video Jago, thanks. Down here in Sydney, the electric, city and suburban, trains are actually triple deckers as, apart from the main upper and lower decks (some with fixed seating and others with seat-backs that can be swung to face the direction of travel) , most carriages have a middle deck of four transverse seats facing each other close to the entrance/exit doors which are (I think) primarily for less mobile passengers and there are actually one or two of these seats designated for disabled passengers. In some carriages, three of the adjacent seats on either or both sides of these level access seats can be folded up to permit wheelchairs secure access (stall still need to place a ramp between the train and the platform for egress). The ends of end carriages (with driver or guard end cabins) do not have an eight-seat middle deck (although some have one or more single seats) and, on suburban trains serving country routes, some carriages nearer the middle of the train have a toilet and handbasin. Ian (POHM)

[@WolfmanWoody]

I travelled from Rotterdam to Schipol on a double-decker and it was brilliant. You get a much better view of the countryside, but for me it was a frozen wasteland at the time. One thing you can say about German and Dutch railways, you can set your watch by the times they leave the stations.

[@ErnestParker-e9t]

I travel extensively on German railways,and inter city trains are notorious for never being on time,try waiting in Brandenburg for 2 hours in the snow freezing for 2 trains that never turned up, without any announcements. Dutch railways yes, but not Deutsche bahn.

[@maestromanification]

Interesting video Jago, I hadn't realised there was so much space wasted under each high level compartment I actually came across a 4DD driving coach at Ashford about 98. I was dumped on some abandoned sidings where CTRL is now. It was actually in reasonable condition, it was with a birdcage brake possibly SECR I think both got saved. We were stabling 37s there for dungeness route learning Cheers Russ

[@tonywise198]

The old SR 4-DD were a nightmare to get on and off. I missed my stop more than once trying to get off.

[@DelticFilm]

I am with you on the extra time at stations, I have often used the Danish Siemens Desiro trains, they are not double-decker, bust seating over the wheel sets are higher, it takes some people an eternity to negotiate just 4 steps

[@PokhrajRoy.]

Jago was so specific about the disembarking. I think he knows something 😂

[@drzander3378]

@PokhrajRoy., You think it’s an old lady but it’s really Jago in disguise 😁

[@TheLanguageAssistant]

It was strange that Bulleid didn‘t use the below-sole-bar level. Most double deck coaches in Europe only work because the lower deck sits between the bogies, and single level has to be above the bogies. The Aeroliner 3000 concept did this, but because UK trains can‘t crack the 4m mark, even the Aeroliner design needs to fold the aisle of the lower deck into the aisle of the upper deck. The Görlitz double deck coach is around 4.60 m above the railhead, which allows for two decks of approximately 2 m headroom. The use of the below-sole-bar-space means that electrical and mechanical equipment needs to be crammed in, in the roof of the single deck portions at the ends of the coach and under the stairs.

[@1258-Eckhart]

Most double deck stock here is locomotive-hauled, so there is no need for traction equipment on the carriages. Your example is the Class 445 Bombardier Twindexx, which has 6 standard non-motored carriages (no equipment) and 2 motored carriages in a sort of HST-format.

[@samuell.foxton4177]

DCA design came up with a UK loading gauge double deck concept in about 2010

[@CarolineFord1]

Simple answer: tunnels Also think of the trains you cannot get on as people don't move down. Buses are the same. There are seats upstairs but you cannot get on as people do not move.

[@conradharcourt8263]

Carry an umbrella!😊

[@xenon53827]

As they say on the Underground during rush hour, "Move down inside the cars, please" And if you do, you might not be getting off at the next stop!

[@UncleBooBoo]

A double decker British commuter train? Guess we had to be "Bulleid" into trying it. I'll see myself out.

[@grahampaulkendrick7845]

I rode that pictured Go train in Toronto on '17.

[@eattherich9215]

I rode the GO train on a visit to Toronto in 2019. I have also been on the French SNCF trains that have upstairs seating.

[@CookeeQapla]

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to the punmeister of choo choos! Thank you for your awesome and chuckle worthy content Jago. Always learn something new.

[@randomword1005]

Thanks for the video Jago! I found it interesting hearing the British perspective of double decker trains as in Sydney, Australia our commuter rail network is run entirely by double decker stock

[@pacificostudios]

FYI: A standard Bombardier/Alstom "lozenge" bi-level cars are 15'11" (4.85 m) tall. Trying to cut 4 feet off that isn't possible, not without posting "One must be this SHORT to ride this train" signs everywhere. I can testify that these trains feel roomy, even if one can reach the ceiling.

[@mikeball6182]

Don't give Michael O'Leary any ideas.

[@pacificostudios]

@@mikeball6182 - For real, who is Michael O'Leary?"

[@samuell.foxton4177]

Many European double deckers are 4.32m high, the UK limit is 3.95 from memory

[@treinenliefde]

Honestly I don't think saying that double deckers can't work because of longer dwell times is really accurate. Here in the Netherlands we use double deckers on a lot of longer distance trains. But what we actually have compared to the average semi long distance train in the UK are large balconies and large doors. For some reason British intercity trains still have tiny balconies and only single doors per side. Yeah you're going to have issues with crowds if you have to walk in and out single file, but on our VIRM and DDZ double deckers you can easily have three people exiting at the same time. We still have one or two minute stops with this setup. For some reason the UK keeps holding on to single doors on their higher speed trains and two sets of double doors on stopping trains. We moved to three sets of doors on stopping trains in the 70s! Dwell times are aweful in the UK not just because of overcrowding, but also because some design choices are just wrong for efficiency.

[@paulketchupwitheverything767]

Dwell times are lengthy on UK commuter trains. People just don't seem be able to get in and out quickly and I believe that this contributes to delays. I remember my commutes falling further behind schedule after each stop. More sets of doors would certainly help as would less of a delay for them to open. I wouldn't want to go back to slam door trains but I don't remember them taking so long for people to get on/off at intermediate stations.

[@LeeSmith-cf1vo]

My comment about double decker platforms on the tram video applies equally well here. It entirely solves the dwell time issue. It does not, however, even _begin_ to solve the loading gauge issue.

[@routeman680]

A German company designed double deck coaches called AeroLiner3000 for the standard UK loading gauge and exhibited a demonstrator in 2016: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroLiner3000 I think one problem would be lack of space for any equipment below the lower deck floor.

[@SIMONWINTER-m6d]

You could put the equipment on the roof.If you reply to this comment you're madder than me.

[@highbury1972]

I’ve used Double Deck Trains in Germany, Belgium and NL. Most of the lines are 2-3 hours end to end.

[@mrtnsnp]

In the Netherlands we have double decker trains. The loading gauge is sufficient, obviously. What we don't have are train routes with longer distances between stops, as those that do quickly become international trains. Funny enough, those international trains are all on a single level. The double decker trains were introduced for commuter services. Those trains were based on models used around Paris, also for commuter services there. The main reason to introduce them was demand to carry more passengers, and a limited length of the platforms. Especially at the smaller stations, the platforms can be fairly short here. So yes, dwell times at stations are sub-optimal, but the pros outweighed the cons. Since that time, the double decker models have changed roles. The commuter trains are now single decker again, either longer because platforms have been rebuilt, or providing a more frequent service. The double decker trains can now be found on the "long distance" intercity routes. It is a newer model, although the older models have been refurbished, and now serve in the new role. I'm not sure anyone likes those trains.

[@highpath4776]

The 4DD might have been better going Waterloo - Surbiton - Woking fast shuttles moving lots of people in one go to places where not many folk would board

[@ricequackers]

GO Transit in the Toronto region, Sydney Trains and the Zurich S-Bahn are the exceptions to the advice that you shouldn't use double-decker trains for commuter service. The latter has other wacky features like first class on commuter trains, tram-trains and light rail, and metre-gauge lines.

[@lazrseagull54]

I forgot about Toronto and Zürich and you forgot the Paris RER. They have the most appropriate double deckers for commuter services as they have 3 doors per carriage.

[@ricequackers]

@ D'oh I forgot about the RER! Yeah that works well despite being a very intensive service.

[@dommsevanschnitzel2732]

As with 3rd rail to OHE conversion the thing that baffles me about this is that Britain seemingly isn't able to just start somewhere and then more or less continuosly upgrade tracks. It's not like europe always had the space for double-deck trains either and still doesn't have on some routes. And yes to a degree it's right, it takes somewhat longer to board then again those trains have more capacity so the crowding isn't as bad and looking at the RER and Sydney Trains it seems to be possible and apart from that on fast and semi-fast routes it defenitely works. Besides it would also make container trains easier

[@xenon53827]

France did covert lines into the main stations, but most of the TGV high speed network is a separate network, built in the last 50 years. And look at us, "Ooh, let's build HS2!" and all the problems we are having with that.

[@flippop101]

There are other issues aside of just the loading gauge. For instance here in Germany double deck trains have been introduced to increase commuter and inter-city capacity, as in France. They were primarily introduced so as to avoid lengthening platforms. Double Deck coaches are enormously heavy, a bring with them headaches for structural engineers and locomotives. The permanent way has to be strengthened, especially on routes of 160 km/h, and locomotives need more horse- and braking power to cater for such services. Rightly or wrongly, I can’t imagine such trains being developed for the uk. Bridges, tunnels and the extremely tight loading gauge just couldn’t allow it to happen.

[@apb3251]

The fact that the every rail bridge in the country would need to be rebuilt and redesigned to accommodate double deckers is also a large obstacle in the UK changing to double deckers

[@msg5507]

The Sydney trains provide disabled spots in their vestibules, where you board the trains. Other commuters can go up or down the stairs to the other levels, but many just stay in the vestibules for short trips. New South Wales also uses electric double deckers on its intercity route to Newcastle and Wollongong, that have accessible toilets in the disabled access vestibules.

[@momo1435]

Maybe Eurostar will be ordering double decker TGVs? I think that's the only the only realistic scenario to see double decker trains in Britain.

[@ADAMEDWARDS17]

They will have to prove that the train can be cleared in the channel tunnel fast enough to avoid danger to passengers if a train catches fire, in particular given double deck TGVs only have one way out of each carriage on the bottom deck.

[@PabloBD]

I took one of those TBA trains at 0:23 they were converted to double deck to have more capacity in an already busy line, but didn't last long. I liked the lower deck, windows were almost at platform floor level

[@eccentric_traveler]

5:00. The USA had similar trains to these. Long Island Railroad had some similar the the seats were not enclosed, everyone could socialize up an down so to speak. And this arrangement reminds of the duplex type of sleeping cars in America as well.

[@jeremypreece870]

we could have had double-decker trains, but that would be another story

[@peterdemeteor8399]

Travelling from Tunbridge Wells (where I lived as a child) to Charing Cross by train sometime in the 1960s, I saw one of those double-deckers on an adjacent line.

[@uktrains5679]

I never knew we had dabbled in double decker trains in the UK. Proper full size double decker trains need bridges and overhead lines raising though, presumably these extra costs outweigh any benefits. Great interesting video Jago and was very nice to see some EMR footage included, thanks Jago.

[@SeverityOne]

Oh, Bullied took the word CAN'T as a personal insult. I misheard that for a second. The Netherlands, not a country known for its long distances, and the only country in Europe with a busier rail network (measured in trains per network km), have had double-deck trains since the 1980s. These were used for busy commuter trains in North Holland (the area north and west of Amsterdam). Platforms were on the short side in that region. They had very wide doors, facilitating quick entry and exit: dwell time in the Netherlands is notoriously short. Long distance trains would be single deck, locomotive hauled. Nowadays, it's the other way around. On the busiest long distance corridors, such as Amsterdam-Eindhoven, it's almost exclusively double deck trains. Local trains, on the other hand, are single deck, as are the newest long distance trains. But there will be new double deck long distance trains, with single deck end coaches for accessibility. Almost all passenger trains are EMUs these days. The point is, though, that double deck long distance trains could work in the UK.

[@nilo70]

“Stacked against them”. The man has no shame, Cheers From California 😎

[@pacificostudios]

In the States, the loading gauge has often been enlarged--particularly by raising vertical clearances at overpasses and tunnels--to accommodate larger freight cars (wagons). That's a major reason why essentially all the regional rail lines in California: Coaster, Metrolink, CalTrain, ACE, and Amtrak San Joaquin, Capitols, and Pacific Surfliners, plus Amtrak long-distance trains, are double-deckers. CalTrain is the most relevant for comparison to London; the average station distance is about 1 mile. That's why, after over 150 years under steam and diesel-electric, CalTrain just converted to EMU power. Anyway, I ride Metrolink and Amtrak and Coaster all the time. The smoothest ride is upper-level, and the worst is lower-level. I think the difference is from having so much steel between you and the rails; the entire car is a shock absorber when you sit on the upper level. I love it.

[@drzander3378]

@pacificostudios, The commuter trains serving Chicago are also double decker, or at least some were the last time I was there which, admittedly, was around 15 years ago. Maybe a Chicagoan can confirm if they’re still there.

[@pacificostudios]

@@drzander3378 - Seriously, the difference is that the Metra trains, like the CalTrain trains, load and unload nearly everyone at their downtown terminal. Jago is right that Thameslink and Elizabeth Live trains, which run through London, are not a place to try out double-deck carriages (although the very successful RER Line A runs double-deck trains through Paris). But there are a lot of trains running into stub terminals like Liverpool Street, Victoria, Waterloo, etc., where a lozenge-shaped double-deck train might be a significant improvement. The Paris RER MI-09 trains have three doors on each side of the car, and still have about 40% more capacity than the single-level trains they replaced. The MI-09 trains are only 14'2" (4.32 m) tall, which is about the height of Bulleid's DD carriages. However, I think the real problem is that carriages with two full floors can't be accommodated on most British rail lines. Plus all the equipment under the carriage floor must go somewhere else. It would be a true design challenge, leave it at that.

[@txquartz]

​@@drzander3378Yes, they are. Though they're converting to a new layout which is more like RER

[@francesconicoletti2547]

In Sydney we have just built and are in the process of building more metro style ( definitely not metro functioning ) lines. They are in competition to our double decker suburban lines. I suspect the main reason for the singe deck metro is loading gauge , much of the lower nes run in new tunnels, smaller tunnels less expense. But the step free, no one sitting on the stairs getting on and off the metro is a joy.

[@phaasch]

"You are the staircase to my standing passenger"

[@1258-Eckhart]

Certainly in Munich we have no double decker S-Bahn units, which supports your points about dwell times. But we have lots of double decker regional trains (shortened to "Dosto", "DOppelSTOck"). They save greatly on weight over a single decker equivalent with the same number of seats (--> lower power consumption), and have the great advantage of being able to serve stations with shorter platforms, where a single decker equivalent would overhang the platform length.

[@richardekers3025]

It seems appropriate that this video is published in the same week that two separate DD bus crashes occurred in Scotland involving drivers attempting to go through tunnels that were too small. Stay downstairs folks!

[@whiskeysk]

Viaggio Twins are one of the main three types of vehicles used (together with Talent and Desiro) on commuter S-Bahn around Vienna in Austria.

[@dominicbarden4436]

I was at the NEC in Brum a few weeks ago at the National Festival of Railway Modelling. One of the layouts there (Southern Region-themed, funnily enough) had a model of the 4DD running around. Pretty cool!

[@carlteacherman194]

The 4DDs stank, cigarettes, BO and especially foot odour. There was a forced air ventilation system that often didn't work. My dad took me on these as a kid. The best part was a little jump seat on the upper deck, just made for kids.

[@roderickmain9697]

I would observe that some Dutch trains and some of Paris' RER network uses double deckers and they look like they are targeted towards commuter lines. But you have to have the loading gauge. Therein lies the rub, as you rightly point out Jago. Just watching the London-Eastbourne trains come into Lewes station makes you realise thay'd need to do a lot of work on railway infrastructure (lots of small tunnels on Southern Region) to make it possible and I would guess it doesnt justify the cost. In fact, a lot of Southern stock seemed to forego the passenger steps to the carriage doors that other lines had - narrow tunnels again.

[@whtalt92]

Not just the gauge, but the door width and positions. You'll also need the rest of the infrastructure (platform width, staircases, escalators, gates) to be sized appropriately.

[@MikeFL52]

Germnay use double deacker trains on their S-Bahn routes which in general a regional but not intercity (long distance), they are used for urban areas consisting of multiple cities, the Ruhrgebiet being a prime example. The still require short times at stations, but not as short as say the London underground.

[@lazrseagull54]

I think double-deckers are very uncommon on S Bahn services and more common on regional services such as the RRX in the Ruhrgebiet. I know the S Bahns in Leipzig and Rostock used to use double deckers before their Bombardier Talent 2 trains entered service but most S Bahn networks, including in the Ruhrgebiet use single deckers like the Br420 or 423 which have a seating/door layout as follows: 4-seater, door, 4-seater, repeat. This is to minimise boarding times as no passenger is ever more than 1 seat away from a door. Examples of suburban networks using double deckers are the Paris RER and Sydney trains. The ones in Paris are quite good for low(ish) boarding times as they have 3 extra wide doors per carriage.

[@DandamanV]

One thing to note about the 4DD trains is that the centre part of the frame between the bogies doesn't drop down to allow more space. This is how they do it in Sydney. But, your comment about the impact to dwell times will still apply, which is why Sydney's new automated Metro does away with the double decker design in favour of higher frequency.

[@Dents6679]

Hello once again, Jago :)

[@SydenyTrainsVideos]

interesting, in Sydney along a few of the suburban lines using double decker trains a 3 minute frequency in each direction is sustained during peek times, with usually a 2 - 3 min travel time between stations

[@Ben-xe8ps]

I have travelled on the 'Double Decker (4DD)'. As a child I liked it and always wanted to sit upstairs. I agree about the longer station dwell times but would ask if the time taken for all passengers to alight/board would have been any longer than if a Class 411 (4CEP) unit was used which was not unheard of on the Dartford route. Another problem was the all closed compartment nature of the train. With normal compartments, nervous passengers could at east see who was in the compartment before they boarded but on the DD such passengers had no idea who could be lurking upstairs.

[@DoubleACbg]

A few years ago I rode on a Metra train from Grand Central Station in Chicago to Buffalo Grove Illinois, and the cars were double-decker like the GO trains in Canada.

[@nathanw9770]

6:36 Funnily enough the same thing happens on double decker buses, especially in London (to the point where there is a whole announcement telling people to sit upstairs). If a few people don't want to go upstairs to sit it causes a knock on effect where passengers would much rather stand downstairs than push past others to utilise the full capacity. Thing is we have slightly too many double deckers to remove that problem... Would love to see a vid at some point on why most of our buses are double decker despite all the given cons.

[@trinity1181]

Valid points here. Sydney is starting to convert lines to metro single deck from Double. They are considering this with other lines as the frequency can be increased and the dwell time at stations is reduced.

[@MaybeJohn]

Merry Christmas Mr Hazzard.

[@xenon53827]

Another reason that people were not fond of the top deck, especially in summer, is that it could get very hot up there. If you were taking a trip on a sunny day and you had chocolate in your lunchbox, you avoided the top deck like the plague!

[@matthamilton33]

Great stuff. I’ve ridden the New Jersey Transit double deckers and they feel like a health and safety violation waiting to fall down the stairs.

[@hyperdistortion2]

The thing that fascinated me on visiting Japan are the *partial* double-decker trains. Ones with 10 cars, 8 of which are single-deck, the two in the middle two-deck. Fascinating stuff to experience. They also had double-decker Shinkansen at a time, which are sadly no longer in service. Now that’s something spectacular.

[@railotaku]

The Double decks are First class cars

[@hughs591]

Interesting video, I travel on Paris’s RER A line quite regularly, it’s very much a commuter route with exclusively double decker stock and I’ve not noticed that passengers take much longer to alight and board than they do on Thameslink but perhaps the frequency of trains is somewhat less.

[@bazra19]

The simple answer; we built the railway system well before others. So our bridges were not built to take them. Thank you for not putting music over a good vlog.

[@batman51]

They also had a higher centre of gravity and restricted (I think) to 45 mph. They normally did one morning and eveining service on the Bexleyheath where loads up to 1700 were experienced.

[@wiredwomble7958]

I would suggest, via a technicality, that The Shuttle is double decker (well half of it) but you do have to bring your own seats.