James Baldwin, Nikki Giovanni, and the Erasure of Black Women

In this video, I break down a very important topic, often overlooked by many black men, and that has been written about extensively by countless black women - James Baldwin's gender, politics and treatment of black women in his literature. We break down this topic through looking at the pivotal conversation between James Baldwin, and.Nikki Giovanni in 1971, where they talk Black life, love, and family. Was Jim Baldwin sexist? Was he misogynistic? Did he align with misogynoir?
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ESSAY CHAPTERS
00:00 Intro
01:00 James Baldwin and Nikki Giovanni Conversation in 1971
03:18 What is MISOGYNY and MISOGYNOIR?
05:48 Misogynoir and Black Gender in the 1960s
07:46 Baldwin and Giovanni Talk in 1971
10:22 Black Men As Protectors and Enactors of Violence
11:44 How Black Men Excuse Violence In Favor of the Patriarchy
15;55 Black Women in the Black Panther Party
17:08 On Baldwin, Heterocentrism, and Sexuality
18:24 Audre Lorde talks to James Baldwin in 1984
22:56 Joseph Beam on James Baldwin and Black Gender
24:11 My experiences with Black gender expectations and DV in family
25:15 Takeaways on how Black men can confront patriarchal violence
In this video, we embark on a deep exploration of James Baldwin's engagement, or lack thereof, with Black feminism and gender discourse, focusing on pivotal conversations with Nikki Giovanni in 1971 and Audre Lorde in 1984. Beginning with an analysis of misogyny and misogynoir, we traverse through historical contexts to dissect Baldwin and Giovanni's dialogue on Black masculinity, violence, and the role of Black women in activism. We challenge conventional notions of Black masculinity, examine the experiences of Black women within movements like the Black Panther Party, and interrogate Baldwin's views on heterocentrism and sexuality. Incorporating insights from scholars like Joseph Beam and personal reflections on Black gender expectations, we conclude with actionable takeaways on empowering Black men to confront patriarchal violence and foster equitable gender relations within the community. Join us on this critical journey as we navigate the intricate intersections of race, gender, and activism within Baldwin's legacy.
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[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

What did you learn from this video? And what would you like to see next on James Baldwin? ❤

[@rjpineda1521]

I learned that abuse of Afro boys is ok as long as it is done by Afro women (mothers, aunts, grandmas, older sisters, etc) and when some of those boys become hopeless, loveless men men then they are to blame for the abuse perpetrated by the Afro female slave masters in their own home...George Floyd was abused as a child and it was not the police who abused him mercilessly before the age of 8... #afroamericanmisandry #theman-not

[@gloriathomas2188]

😅😮

[@MariaCJ]

Baldwin calling Giovanni "Sweetheart" and "baby" in such condescension! I don't know how she stays so calm.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

I knowwww

[@evaphillips2102]

I doubt he’s the first man to condescend her.

[@ernestocastelli9005]

it was a different time, black panthers literally were homophobic and hated Baldwin because they thought him being a gay black man who fell in love with a white man made him not black.

[@Fenilee]

​@@evaphillips2102doesn't make it acceptable or right

[@Damngoodchicken_]

Imma start calling them baby girl and see how they like it

[@AbigailStovall-jh4gl]

I was also obsessed with James Baldwin and I still am, he was brilliant and what an extraordinary writer, thinker, speaker, I can go on, but then I saw this interview and it made me sad how he just couldn't understand the points Nikki was making specifically when she spoke about the black family and how black women needed black men to love them and see them, uhhh its so painful how she is just not being understood and how men, all men, can be so insular and selfish mentally, that they can not empathize with women to the degree that can actually inspire real change in how they treat and love them.

[@LoneWulf278]

It’s disheartening because all movements have instrumentalized women’s emotional investment at some point, but we tend to be on our own.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Yesss. Baldwin ignores a lot of black womens pain

[@SoniaRossIntuitiveMessenger]

A lot of work will need to be done for men to heal that insular and selfish mentally that limits their empathy or ties it only to something they can directly benefit from. There is a tremendous amount of work that is needed in this area that men need to do.

[@rjpineda1521]

Judge and executioner...would hate to see you judging even a turlte race...Did you also cringe at reading Bell Hooks' demonizing piece on the Central Park 5 that granted Linda Fairstein a green light? Have you done anything with your life that would be comparable to anything James Baldwin achieved at a time when abuse of Afro men and gay men was a commonplace thing? Why do so many Americans love hating Afro men? #shameless haters #endwokeness

[@aboriginalstraightshooter7967]

​@@PrinceShakurKZbinYes that went with the time frame that he was living in smh.

[@TheCYW]

I’m not taking away the brilliance of Baldwin, but Giovanni had the added challenge of suppressing the fury that a conversation like this invokes. It’s much like when Black people have to suppress fury when in White spaces. She was so eloquent.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

She spoke truth

[@ladama3201]

Agree

[@MsBlackDiamond88]

Chile it screamed intersectionality before it became a term 😩 As a black woman, I cringed in my 20’s seeing it too. In my 30’s now I just recognize that even the brightest of our of ancestors don’t have all the answers about everything and can be critiqued. Even with the historical context/education we still fight system mindset daily.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Yes yes yes so true. I think we should both admire them and a,so see these figures as human

[@rjpineda1521]

So, did you also cringe at reading Bell Hooks' demonizing piece on the Central Park 5 that granted Linda Fairstein a green light? Have you done anything with your life that would be comparable to anything James Baldwin achieved at a time when abuse of Afro men and gay men was a commonplace thing? Why do so many Americans love hating Afro men? Cause its a two way road...Geroge Floyd was beaten by the women around him as a child but no one mentions that. #theman-not

[@AlexLopez-hn5ru]

DAILY

[@MorganMingo70]

FROM YOUR KEYSTROKE TO TJE UNIVERSE’S… UM… ALGORITHM?! 🤔 😂😂😂 ❤❤❤ But Yesss!!!! Just turned 40 in March. One of my eldest cousins in his mid 60s (call him uncle) was a Hotep and 5Percenter from way back; but made me feel like he was one of few who really understood me spiritually as a child (9yrs). So I was drawn to metaphysics early. It wasn’t until my teens and early adulthood that I began to notice how problematic the “Hotep” males were & the women who perpetuated their harmful narratives! As my My cousin and I continued speaking all these years, I went from being in awe of him to being annoyed at how quickly he would parse and analyze my words or thoughts on a topic. Even now, he will ask me for advice and say he values my intelligence and that I am someone with whom he can dive deep with… only to turn around and abruptly want me to stop explaining what he asked. -You asked because you did not previously know. Anyway. The biggest issue I hear is when he talks about dating and “molding” a woman to his liking. Or that said woman is essentially a companion for him to get “all the things a woman is for”. Um… Sir… get a memory-foam pillow, an emotional support dog, a live-in Nanny-Lover. (🤔 Free Agent Adult Au Pair…) Tried to explain to this man that he shouldn’t be tryna mold anyone, let alone his last “Jawn” who was a 48year old woman! .🤦🏽‍♀️

[@vigarobugsbunni]

I loved this conversation because it shows how this idea of masculinity hurts everyone, men and women alike. When baldwin was saying i need to bring the crib basically to feel valued, nikki was saying all i need is for you to stand by me and bring you. He was then basically saying no, my ego is far more important and this idea of a mans value is far more important i need the status symbols. This hurts to see, because it is happening now. You see people in the community chase the symbols or "proofs" of love or how to treat each other and none of it is real. They chase so hard that they do it at the expense and exploitation of themselves and others. I love that nikki said you will never get the crib, meaning the things that matter aren't out there, they're in here, with me. Edit: so in conclusion i feel like nikki is saying let the status symbol be your family and your relationships because you will never get the crib or the respect, love, admiration from out there. I dont know how we can turn this around in todays age because capitalism and status has completely taken over.

[@salanderlisbeth4319]

Totally agree! Ego's, status, toxic masculinity..sexismo, misoginy are part of Opressão exclusion...saluti 🏳️‍🌈❤️🚩✊🏾🇧🇷🚩🏳️‍🌈🇵🇸🍉

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

hmmm yes. I also think of the phrase “gender is a performance”

[@rjpineda1521]

Bell Hooks' demonizing piece on the Central Park 5 that granted Linda Fairstein a green light didn't also hurt everyone? Have you done anything with your life that would be comparable to anything James Baldwin achieved at a time when abuse of Afro men and gay men was a commonplace thing? Why do so many Americans love hating Afro men? #theman-not

[@tcl09110]

The way that he kept referring to her as “baby” or “sweetheart” reminded me of the way that older black people view younger black people. It’s like they have this superiority complex because they’re older therefore “wiser.” They don’t allow younger black people to speak their mind especially on things that they don’t agree with or else it’s seen as “disrespect” or “defiance.” It did make me feel a bit uncomfortable as well that him as an older man referred to her as “baby.” It seems almost passive aggressive? However, nonetheless it was an interesting watch. This is a very well thought out analysis of how black men and black women perceive each other within America! It’s very intriguing to watch both of their viewpoints within the video.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Yesss there's an air of infantilization to his language for sure

[@roberth2627]

One thing I've learned is ,know matter how brilliant & insightful one can be ,you are still a product of your time..I grew up doing the Civil Rights area of the 50's..& the Black Power movement of the 60's..& still to this day one must challenge, deep rooted assumptions about gender & race withi myself..that one has been conditioned to accept be it by family, community etc. Know matter how aware one might think they are . their is still work to do .regardless of one's sexual orientation, gender, or race..I believe if Jame Baldwin would have lived longer he would be evolving with new information along with the more informed community in which he came out of..

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Yes yes yes

[@karenblum5429]

I have ALWAYS loved them both, but when I saw this conversation, I had to do it in two parts. I was disappointed in Baldwin. At the end of the day, most men (or so it seems) around the world are comfortable in believing they are in 'first place' whether they are 100% aware of it or not. It is spoon fed to them, sometimes by their own mothers,sisters,aunts...As for the chain of violence, I can't tolerate it, I won't justify it, but I understand it. They should not be excused. They should be made to look inward and be left alone if they can't live well with others.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Yess. Watching it over and over, it becomes easier to realize that Baldwin wants to benefit from manhood in someway, and can’t articulate the language that explains for the patriarchy and the seriousness of patriarchal violence. I think for many people it’s confusing because Baldwin seems so conscious and so many other way.. but men will men, until they learn? I hope ? Ugh

[@Shay45]

I would say this all the time but back in the day people were not thinking about mental health. It was not a thing.

[@nancyiaj]

He didn’t understand that we have to put on for them-to be mates for them-we don’t FEEL everything is right-we aren’t a chore like your job/boss-we are in the same boat… and we fake it for you…

[@lilbritofeverything]

That last part…😞 mask off. fu*k mask off

[@nancyiaj]

@@lilbritofeverything it’s like screaming into the void sometimes…

[@shayanise]

Or that we share in the same struggles, not just with racism, but even at home. Black men talk about how messed up the hood is and their experience surviving it, as if there aren't also little Black girls also going through that experience.

[@nancyiaj]

@@shayanise yes.

[@mochalily3735]

Ngl… I wish this was longer 😭 cause THIS is a conversation worth having. Loved this reexamination. Excellent job!

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

I’ve got more ideas on this topic! More to come

[@Dork2099]

Loved this conversation between Giovanni and Baldwin since forever- before hearing your analysis, here’s how I’ve always received it: uncovering any shortcoming in Baldwin is like refining a diamond. Understanding his limitations only makes his countless gifts shine brighter.

[@AmberColeman-gq1wn]

I’m trying to figure out how you’re affected by any of this- black man, black woman… Where do you come in ?

[@Dork2099]

@@AmberColeman-gq1wnI value Baldwin’s work. This analysis helps me understand him better and, in turn, understand myself better.

[@aboriginalstraightshooter7967]

​@@Dork2099I don't understand this need to always invade our spaces😩🤦🏿‍♀️

[@JustSomeLint]

​​@@aboriginalstraightshooter7967 Nigga the whole point of comment sections is to chime in. Relax. Shakur even liked the comment.

[@emryadora]

@@aboriginalstraightshooter7967 I love him for being here. I wish more people would try to understand the black experience instead of just filing it away into invisibility and hating it. I try to understand other cultures as well. It gives me empathy when interacting with people.

[@thebitterprojector]

This conversation is transcribed into a book called "A Dialogue" - Ms. Giovanni has a really good rebuttal to Baldwin telling her she has to understand. She says, "So, because you love me, I get the least of you? what?" She highlights the absurdity of that train of thought very well. He also says "skinfolk ain't kinfolk" during this conversation - I'd like to see a video on that.

[@tuttyusbuttyus]

"A Revolutionary Hope" (the convo between JB and Audre Lorde) had me feeling similarly about him. I don't for a second discredit his work and contribution, but like A LOT of black men of that time (here's looking at you, Franz Fanon), he seemed to only be able to acknowledge the struggles that black men faced and didn't offer himself as much to hearing about the nuanced experiences of black (queer) women.

[@shayanise]

Black men are the same way today.

[@chromecrucifix]

his ideologies of gender were deeply rooted in the personal trauma that he both experienced and witnessed. his father was his model for masculinity and his inability and lack of resources to learn and recover from these experiences in turn influenced him rather negatively. i think it's interesting tho how generational trauma and teachings, esp in black communities tend to be counterintuitive and sometimes hinder our ability to expand beyond socio-political norms that have only left us to repeat the same mistakes from those before us. emotions are complicated however i never understood the need to engage in violence to process them. although, i do believe our generation will finally break these cycles and confront the dare i say insanity that's been enabled by the world we live in.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

I think it’s our relationship to how we oppose colonization

[@aryaastark9201]

Very great video. One thing that kind of surprised me is the almost condescending? tone he held toward Nikki. I don't think it was something done consciously, but we could also mention the ageism that occurs within the black community, the notion that elders hold all the wisdom and younger people are there more to learn then to teach. ALSO, and i dont know how to phrase this, but I wonder if Nikki being so light also fed into the patronizing tone? Like, there is this thought that still festers today that light skinned women are to be treated like delicate flowers where as dark skin women are thought to be more masculine and therefore can take more aggressive interactions. I dont know all of his partners, but im pretty sure he had at least one long term white partner, and im wondering if the ugliness of colorism was something that he struggled with internally, particularly as it regards black women.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Mmmm colorism could def be an element: in the convo, it does seem like Baldwin wants to be “liked”

[@SpiritSoPoetic]

I said the same thing about old Dick Gregory interviews.. misogynist! Hated women to the core, because his dad wasn’t there, therefore all the fault fell on his mother

[@maxxlawrence3910]

Among all men in patriarchal systems there is a lack of motivation to change. Asking any man to change will net you nothing but excuses, in the end it is a choice to be one way or the other. Giovanni makes multiple excellent points where Baldwin continually shut it down with walls of anti-change. Bell Hooks' book, aptly titled The Will to Change, is about the will, the choice, the blueprint to change. Choosing love and not anger/violence. The rage is all men are often allowed to feel as boys, emotional maturity is not valued by men or many women in men. As stated it all hinges on a choice. You choose how you feel and process things, in spite of damages done to you. You choose how you express love to and value others. That is the crux of every issue presented. Men must make a choice to change.

[@newkyddd3]

THIS is the video me and my ancestors have been routing for. IM EXCITED!

[@emryadora]

Yup.

[@briannaknight7152]

These are two educators in the black space of literature and social commentary, but in their opening statements, he called her ”sweetheart”. So anyone pretending not to see that he was being misogynistic(noir) wants to be blind. If that was a man, a black man sitting across from him he would’ve called that man by his name or his title not a pet name definitely not sweetheart or baby, they are equals and he chose to call her sweetheart.

[@MonaeM-fi4lz]

This is a great video! So much of what you explained are things I question when it comes to black male “leaders” in our community. I often find myself feeling dehumanized just for the sake of many black men’s “freedom” and it’s exhausting

[@mx.walrus]

This was fantastic To share it My next mission

[@Carefulwiththattaxeugene]

Working in an art museum, we have several works by artists who heavily reference or are influenced by James Baldwin. I began reading his works starting with Stranger in the Village and would like to continue his literature with Giovanni's Room (gotten a bit into it), hopefully onward. My coworker recommended me the conversation between Nikki Giovanni and Baldwin. As a white person, I appreciate this video endlessly because of not only hearing your opinions, tying in of personal experience, and critiques of it, but the numerous authors you provide who can help me better understand a deeper nuance of the artwork we put on display. I hope to continue learning from content like this, including more of your content and work

[@ec9833]

21:15 centering men…taking the hits because men, poor men, where else shall they hit, whom else shall they hit, lest they risk their lives, but the black woman, who he doesn’t realize he CAN hit and get away with it because the woman IS IN THE BLANK…the ones that did care for them since the womb…that’s their job…to take all the rage and all the abuse and they are expected to stand back up, take it over and over and once he’s exhausted from it, she must clean the man up…bandage his decided wounds as she swells and bleeds from his transference, paying no mind to that…paying all of her to him because…men.

[@rudetuesday]

I'm very interested in learning more about the arc of depictions of catharsis in Baldwin's work, especially with regards to base-level emotions like disgust and anger. I tend to believe that disgust is more difficult to navigate without a lot of work. It's rather like fear that way.

[@restesdelune]

I’ve been looking for this! Amazing work! ❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥❤️‍🔥

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Glad you like it!

[@JVcity4]

Agreed! Great analysis, wish they were here to give more insight.

[@andreysantiago]

Great video! Really good research that you did! I think one most important thing about learning from great writers/activists is that, as you say, they have their gaps, and it's our task to analyze this in a critical way to do better.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Yes! Thank you!

[@OKANjarrod]

17 & reading Giovanni's Room on a plane to Paris while coming into my sexuality is why Baldwin is onna my favs. Iconoclasts are exactly that because of their imperfections. Love the content 👌🏾 I'm definitely going to check out the full conversations. I'm curious if you have engaged the scholarship of Dr. Tommy Curry's #TheManNot at all and how that could possibly add another lens AND maybe some clarity when we have discourse on intimate partner-sexual violence, patriachy, AntiBlackness etc? I'm not an academic and became aware of the book( and the imo unfortunate surrounding milieu )not that long ago but am always curious to observe how other Blaqueer men have engaged with it, if at all. The best kitchen talk, is when the table is shaking but respect and rationality are maintained 🙏🏾

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

I’ll check that out! Thanks for the rec and watching

[@mariavwrld]

im here before your channel blows up bigg! Love from Brazil.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Awww thank you!!

[@akarayrayt]

I'm so glad you did this video. I am a huge fan of Baldwin. I ran across this interview a few years ago and was deeply disappointed in his misogyny. I had not seen anyone address this interview before. Thanks for addressing the nuance of his character. This was a great video.

[@LadyLoveMonster]

I very much enjoyed your perspective as I delve into learning more about James Baldwin. I was upholding him upon a pedestal but as anyone, he is fallible. It’s truly unfortunate that he had that perspective and seemed to fall into the trap of comfort within his masculinity, erasing the pain and violence of Black women. I think bell hooks gave a really good insight about why we see a lot of the figureheads of our movements in Ain’t I a Woman.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

I'm so glad it help bring another perspective

[@aphronium7688]

This was a great video! I loved this interview but I literally had to pinch myself when I slowly got the message that Baldwin just didn’t have empathy for the women in question! I’m glad I saw your response to this! I feel I am not alone in my understanding. I would love any Baldwin content of course and Nikki Giovanni too💖✨

[@TripleRoux]

What a great excercise in nuance, thank you!

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thank you

[@F4TiMA.]

This is fantastic work(!) 🌞🌞🌞🌞🙏🏿

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thank you 🙌

[@mtyler5000]

Man that Lorde/Baldwin grandmother excerpt is crazy and upsetting. Baldwin’s views on gender (specifically masculinity) always jumped out to me whenever reading his non-fiction. Like you said, it’s jarring to find this person who dedicated their life to the dissolution of categories/preconceptions/oppressive institutions suddenly start touting the virtues, even the need for “manhood” or the ability to be the “protector”- stuff that it seems like Baldwin would have moved beyond the need for in his 20s, if not sooner. I really don’t know why he had these hang ups. There was a sizable group of gay male writers in the 50s (the beats being the most prominent example) who seemed to co-opt misogyny as a way to legitimize their sexualities, kind of going “see we’re not sissies, we hate women too.” You need look no further than one of Ginsberg’s “Vagina’s are gross” poems for a prime example of this. I’ve never seen Baldwin go this far in his writing, but I often wonder if these weird gender views are an outgrowth of some insecurity regarding his sexuality.

[@MadArtLang]

Fantastic Analysis

[@cabacage3593]

I really appreciate the vid on this! I watched it recently and I was a little taken aback by (my own perspective, not saying it’s accurate) some of the condescension that came from Mr. Baldwin. To my end, he couldn’t quite properly provide a good explaination to her questions. And when she kinda pushed him on it, (I felt) he just sorta said “that’s how it is” a few different ways. But it was nice to see him acknowledge and agree with her with somethings.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Yesss. Baldwin didn’t want to contend with the core of what she was saying

[@billiejean685]

It is kind of disheartening to see many black revolutionaries showcase some degree of misgony

[@thedugoutpod]

Love this

[@mstaylor1073]

I def cringed on 1st watch it really reminded me of talking to my dad who is homophobic/straight black man misogyny runs deep

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Yes that’s a good correlation

[@rjpineda1521]

Charlatan...Did you also cringe at reading Bell Hooks' demonizing piece on the Central Park 5 that granted Linda Fairstein a green light? Have you done anything with your life that would be comparable to anything James Baldwin achieved at a time when abuse of Afro men and gay men was a commonplace thing? Why do so many Americans love hating Afro men? #afromisandry #theman-not

[@mpauli12]

Great topic!

[@TheBINIBALL]

Thank you for this video. I am learning so much from your James Baldwin vids.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Glad you like them!

[@FinickyVoid]

Your perspective is invaluable. More likes and comments for the algorithm too!

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thank you ❤️

[@tajjie_taj]

Great Video. Thanks for speaking on this.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thanks for watching!

[@samadi251]

Brillant

[@briannaknight7152]

Thank you for making this video! I hate how this isn’t discussed enough in our community

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thank you for watching! I wanna dig into gender and Black radical history more

[@briannaknight7152]

That would be amazing because I always talk about how Angela Davis was unappreciated during her time with the BPP

[@WiseAli1]

This was an interesting critique, Shakur. When I first listened to their conversation, I agreed with Nikki overall. I also couldn’t help but identify with Baldwin’s perceived entrapments under masculinity, particularly the part where he sought to be valued through bringing things to her & the kids (i.e. food & shelter) whereas Nikki value him for bringing himself to her & the kids. You mentioned something about women’s/queer ppl’s imagination and openness to possibility, and I definitely think that’s worth leaning into to escape that seemingly unavoidable allegiance to masculinity.

[@oneiione]

I’m so happy to see you come up in my recommended. I’m pretty sure we met before, or have some mutual friends. Anyway it means so much to have someone from my city talking abt this in the video essay scene. Much lovee

[@madgepickles]

This is so important, excellent video thank you

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Glad it was helpful!

[@AssataDemure]

Wonderful video!

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thank you

[@alishaendre616]

Excellent analysis! Around 26:40, you get to the meat and potatoes. Baldwin was still seeking male validation. The end.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thank you

[@LoneWulf278]

Great video!!

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@jessicabw]

Damn, didn't know this about him. No one is perfect, James Baldwin.

[@jameslight4391]

He was from a different time. We need to stop holding past figures to modern standards

[@sosa_notchiefkeef]

​@@jameslight4391 There is no such thing as 'modern standards' when regarding something that is not archaic. Not much has changed from the 20th century in terms of discussions of morality, ethics, the woman question, etc. Any moral conviction we hold has been thought of and articulated before. This is especially an odd sentiment to posses as Baldwin lived at the time in which feminism and other radical movements (he was apart of) were rising and already in prominence. In addition, there is no issue in 'holding past figures to modern standards'. Why should we omit criticisms merely because they are from a different generation than us? The original comment only stated that none is perfect, and that they did not know this about Baldwin. We must use discernment when engaging with public figures, authors, activists, politicians, etc. It is the necessary work of any person willing to learn, grow, and effect meaningful change.

[@AmberColeman-gq1wn]

@jameslight4391 No you will not silence us. I’d be surprised if you were even black to begin with.

[@jameslight4391]

@@AmberColeman-gq1wn how am I silencing you?

[@jamilla8588]

@@jameslight4391 i mean this video is literally about baldwin in conversation with women who were contemporaries to him expressing the ideas that you are calling 'modern standards'

[@myinnocentlife8885]

This was an interesting conversation. I’ve always like James Baldwin but to here this take on him definitely makes you think about how much we honor people without taking a deep dive into how they really think and if their values line up with what you value.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thank you for watching ❤️

[@Fenilee]

This might be one of my new favorite channels. I'd be interested to see if you have thoughts on weight given to baldwin's words partly because of tone and the phrasing of how he says things, even as he is condescending (calling giovanni baby, all of that nonsense). And im new to your channel so maybe you already have something about tone policing and language specifically, but still wanted to put it out into the world!

[@YDeniseify]

Excellent Analysis, I concur....

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thank you

[@merelymayhem]

great video !

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thanks!

[@Fenilee]

Thank you so much for this video! Just fyi (if you didnt know, and maybr you already did and that's cool!) at around the 7:30 mark, theres a syncing error with the audio. Doesnt take away from your message and incredible points and i learned a lot, i do appreciate your perspective!!!

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Ah thanks for letting me know

[@Fenilee]

@@PrinceShakurKZbin of course!

[@valuethug]

Chomsky once said in an interview that he regretted how women were treated (delegation of duties) during the Vietnam war protests. Sartre also famously called into question his own writings (basically saying that you control who you become) after influence from Beauvoir and Fanon. Baldwin's work is invaluable, but I do think it's appropriate to call out his flaws.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

So true

[@mv9653]

Thank you for this. I would have never thought to consider Baldwin’s work in terms of gender affirmation and in general what gender affirmation actually means and could mean for Black men (trans, cis, gay, straight etc.) I’m doing my final presentation for my African American Studies class on Black LGBTQ+ storytelling and I’m citing the heck out of this video. Thank you again.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Wow. So glad it could help

[@lath938]

This video inspired me to subscribe.

[@brianaweaver1708]

This is such a compelling think piece. Much gratitude for shining light on this topic.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thank you so muchhh

[@ernestocastelli9005]

Also the same thing is happening today. Nothing has changed.

[@Dork2099]

Awesome analysis, thank you!

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Glad you liked it!

[@user-dw1jp7tp6i]

​@@PrinceShakurKZbinCan I get you to focus on three things: 1. Gerrymandering 2. Gentrification 3. Jury selection NOW, you will find a lot of information on the first two, but jury selection is what most people miss and legal scholars hide. The JURY SELECTION AND SERVICE ACT is federal law passed to insure non biased juries. HOWEVER, the states are not required to use the same method, they must only be within the parameters of their interpretation of their state constitution. This allows states to stack juries by allowing jury commissioners appointed by state judges to hand pick jurors to fill the jury pool. That means no matter who the defense chooses in voir dire they are already biased. How do you find this? Look for repeat jurors that shouldn't be in the pool IF a fair "lottery" was used. The hat should be empty before you refill the hat.

[@smoppet]

I have read most of James Baldwin's works, and I think it was helpful for me to write down my thoughts as I read. This is my practice for most literature, but it prevents me from placing authors (or activists) upon pedestals. Baldwin has some great things to say. He also says some concerning things.

[@theoyess]

Thanks enlightening about JB's an almost rarely discussed dark past, which I had no clue. I'm not condoning JB's misogynistic languages & practices, however, we should also remember that he wasn't only born & raised in a completely different era, but also such discourse was normalized & accepted by the general public at that period. Let's not forget that most of us had done & said the cringeist things in the past, because we didn't know better.

[@mythebe1733]

I'm glad you made this video. James Baldwin and Audre Lorde are so important to me that it is very difficult for me to be friends with anyone who has never read both of them. At the same time I know they were people which means I automatically know they made a ton of mistakes, and I automatically know that both of them made mistakes which really hurt some people. Personally I'm not disappointed in James Baldwin because I never wanted him to be anything other than who he was (This is how I try to be about everyone). I can see how people might feel very disappointed, and I support talking about that. By the time I discovered Baldwin I had already learned that most humans are trash, so I had stopped idolizing people. I was acutely aware of disagreeing with Baldwin about his views on gender while the core of my being was simultaneously being forever changed by his views on race. I'm pretty interested in learning more by understanding how what Baldwin said and wrote is experienced by this host. @15:55 Why does he not extend this same kind of expansion, this same kind of desire for dignity to Black women who are the people holding up the community, who are the people running these survival programs and doing all of the kind of behind the scenes work that the....Black men don't want to do as much. It's so easy for Baldwin to ignore the untold labor of Black women." this was my favorite part of the video. I don't care if you think Baldwin did anything wrong. I love this part because I'm interested in learning about what it is people need. I think it's cool to admit that this need wasn't met, and I think that's valid. I feel the same way, and I share that unmet need, even if I don't think it was Baldwin's or anyone else's responsibility to meet that need. I'm not interested in whether anyone thinks Baldwin (or anyone else) was right or wrong because those judgements are personal and should be shared in private imo. I think this video suffers when it judges Baldwin because those were the only times during this video where I noticed inaccuracies. For example @12:30 "This rage has to come out somewhere, so why not the family? This video did not show James Baldwin saying "so why not the family?". Also @22:37 "where is the line between caring for your people and your background and wanting to humanize them versus permitting the violence they enact because you see it as justifiable in terms of it being misplaced but justifiable?" This video did not show James Baldwin permitting the violence that Black males enact. Media tells us that men are supposed to have the power to prevent violence, but that is unfair to men. It feels unfair to say Baldwin had the power to permit Black male violence when he didn't have the power to prevent it. That's not technically an inaccuracy, so besides that I have never seen James Baldwin in all he wrote or in any of his discussions or speeches, and he certainly did not say it in this video that Black male violence against other Black people is justifiable. There's a difference between justifiable and understandable, and I think that difference is compassion, and I think James Baldwin had enormous compassion for Black men even when they weren't acting right. I hope Baldwin had the same level of compassion for Black women when they weren't acting right because I think everyone deserves that compassion. TLDR: Maybe Baldwin does justify Black male violence against women, but I didn't see him do that in this video. Anyhooch, the host of this video is a total babe. I'm very excited to go check out their other videos and also to go check out the Baldwin Giovanni conversation. I'll subscribe to this channel, and I'm looking forward to seeing what other writing, author career, life, travel, and culture videos they make.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Thank you for watching ❤️

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

I think Baldwin has a lot of gender blind spots that become more and more obvious

[@suagrbunn11]

I love how this video fell into my algorithm after listening to Vince Staples new album Dark Times. It uses this interview as an interlude. Thank you for breaking this down and making it easily accessible.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Oh wow. I didn't know that's in his album. I gotta check it out

[@jrthepinwitch1911]

If you were on the social justice blogosphere back in the day there are some currently hyped writers/thinkers that said outrageous stuff there. I don't see them getting roasted constantly so I assume they grew so I don't talk about it too much. That said this video is a bit cathartic in that I know these people are doing good stuff but I also feel weird due to past interactions/writings/fights/etc. Like its ok to feel weird about iconic people that had their flaws. Its good to acknowledge this complex stuff.

[@emryadora]

Do one on Angela Davis encouraging black women to be breeders. There were also female black radicals who encouraged women to objectify themselves for the black power movement. I just say this because the internalized patriarchy of women was something I missed for a very long time. Love your vid!

[@spencerhinds2803]

being a cis man, watching this a few years ago and loving the conversation and then coming back to it and being able to recognize the misogyny in james baldwins views, thats progress right there. And we dont need to discredit the things baldwin did for black and lgbtq rights but we can still recognize certain misogynistic attitudes and criticize them.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Yes yes exactly . Thanks for watching

[@spencerhinds2803]

@@PrinceShakurKZbin fantastic video btw, i might have been able to pick up on a kinda weird vibe in that interview but i would not be able to articulate it. Scribed

[@paris_2518]

beating your own grandmother is CRAZY 💀💀💀

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Forresl

[@Thisisdefnot]

The conversation between a Black Queer woman & man we overlook all the time

[@nate.solaris]

i’m a white trans/queer man, an english student and a lover of James Baldwin’s work. Especially the way he writes and crafts images, it’s really changed my life and perspective on creative writing for the better. I have so much to learn from queer black men and all of the conversations, essays, theories etc they’ve had hat explore the complexities of race, class, gender & how they all intersect (women & other genders too, but i mean on the queer black Man experience specifically). That said, it is extremely difficult to sit through some of the things Baldwin says about masculinity and passes over the very visceral reality of misogynoir. Every great artist has their gaps, but having been forced into grappling with the complexities of gender from a very young age due to outside aggression I find I have lost a lot of sympathy for cis men who rigidly uphold that irrationality of gender you speak of. I am tired of cis men blaming women for their own trappings and unwillingness to dismantle their self-imposed gender rigidity and downfall. Being white will obscure my ability to fully understand everything at play in Baldwin and his contemporaries’ work, so thank you very much for this video. I also know white people often have more freedom to explore in regards to gender but my upbringing did not reflect that at all- i was forced to come up right against that rage and overhanging threat of violence. (but again the blinders of whiteness are very strong so maybe not.) I didn’t know he had these conversations & I appreciate the detail and care you put into giving this subject nuance and making it so accessible! thank you

[@Wildxroses]

I do not think you are a failure as a man! Happy pride 🏳️‍🌈

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Aw thank you. Happy pride

[@tahj2981]

It's because he is expressing troubles from life as a straight black man. Which is very much different than experiencing life as a straight black woman and or a gay black man or womam. Despite the fact that he is also a gay black man.. As a straight black man, you have to be completely upright whether you like it or not. There is no benefit to it (other than spiritual) and there is no downside or off switch. Whether he knows it or not, he is expressing this. He just feels it because he is a black man. This was long before the lgbtq movement had any kind of leverage. Which is why he's expressing this point of view. If he was around nowadays, he might have a different tune

[@JerseyJD24]

I watched the interview years ago a few times and James Baldwin just spoke on the reality of things during that time and Nikki spoke about what women wanted from men. I don’t see how anyone can critique this conversation or apply it to our current consciousness. That just doesn’t make sense to me…

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Baldwin doesn’t really listen to Nikki most of the convo I think

[@ernestocastelli9005]

They bring up in their dialogue the lack of nuance and intellect in the Black Panther Party. Even if the panthers had those rules, to say they all had those rules because of a HOLLYWOOD movie might not be true. Huey P. Newton, in his last years of madness, was accused of beating Angela Davis.

[@bajan92719]

Baldwin could walk so Tyler Perry can fly?

[@itsPenguinBoy]

I wonder if being gay plays a role in the distance he has, at this point in his life, from the violence he describes. He's speaking like there is a natural logic to how rage must be processed through the whole community as domestic violence, and it feels like he has constructed this logic to understand the violence he witnessed as a child but has distance from the heterosexual dynamic now. But, I would call that retroactive reasoning with your pain trauma, and James, baby, sweetheart, it's not O.K to promote retraumatising the ones you love as the only inevitable way to process your pain. There are other ways to approach trauma than to rely on the self-limiting archetype of "the" black man as a means of interpretation, and if anything that search for new responses to trauma *is* the work of feminism, at least one of the main ones.

[@ec9833]

14:54 did it have anything to do with the confines & hyper-praise of masculinity, where, too, no man, according to society, could have any other emotion…they could not admit pain or that they required emotional supports or any other aspect of what was deemed feminine and for the feminine only and even then, femininity being such a problem, such weakness even in women…it just seems, as patriarchy do, that it really does confine the man. That’s patriarchy’s fancy meal ticket and so the man does have to fear things that distract him and focus him in ways that keep him towing a constant line…it’s almost masculine TO rage on the family…it’s been given so much understanding whereas nothing else about a male human had, even to this day…which, in reality and fairness and humanity, doesn’t make it the woman’s duty to endure or the children’s acceptable upbringing…I just wonder if he’s speaking from such a pathetic struggle because he’s not wrong. This is a black man’s experience in the world and buried beneath the rules and expectations of society and as the designated societal scapegoat. Doesn’t negate the woman’s experience, doesn’t legitimately or intelligently align with the reality of how a human should feel and be able to move about their existence…he just seems so limited and as though he hasn’t found a way to lift that yolk from his own neck. It sucks. But these systems have always oppressed…it’s made it incredibly slow for people to evolve due to everything that’s on the line, should you even allow yourself the burden of thinking beyond these limited beliefs, let alone be the one to begin exercising different behaviors and reactions. That’s big risk…it’s all about the risk, I think…which is how it’s all designed, embedded in real deal fear of what could happen. Like he’s trying to find a place to land within her mind…cuz otherwise he’s not justified, he’s not supported & he doesn’t feel as though there’s any other safe place to land. Idunno…

[@deboraalneus7246]

yes I loved the topic but the way in which Baldwin talked to Giovanni was infuriating.

[@nguyentuition1092]

comment❤

[@trmk7]

Not a word about the continued generations to come, or the vaue oof family.

[@ec9833]

17:14 yeah…exactly.

[@ernestocastelli9005]

Also, yes Black men were providers. Don't take the conversation out of historical context, nor deny the fact that Black men are denied jobs by white supremacy. I do agree that Nikki Giovanni is right as to not have to take the abuse from men - but Baldwin is doing something noble, trying to forgive his father so he can overcome his own insecurity as a man.

[@ernestocastelli9005]

I do not believe it was right of my father to abuse me - but I can understand him.

[@malachijustice5551]

Excuse me get talk longer than a video let's head with Mr Baldwin Miss genevan he has the same

[@sharondalewis1620]

Wow has anyone ever told you that you resemble Babyface?

[@awalebebinu]

10:00 Are you using Hotep as a derogatory term?

[@ryumuyo1371]

Thanks. I've never read him. But he seems to think like a pimp.

[@chitown345]

You can't be gay in Kemet!

[@DustSoilStudio]

How he as a queer man has this heteronormative perspective on what the Black man needs….I don’t get it. And the idea that a Black man’s sexuality is the only way they can love???? Y’all don’t fit friends??? What does your sexuality have to do with your parents, your children, your cousins. He’s too brilliant to be this dense. The thing about rage. Does he think Black women were just chilling? Does he think it was easy? Does he think Black women weren’t going to work? Where is her permission to rage? Like, sir…what planet are you on?

[@errolduncan9305]

Men don't need God, man is God. Men become Christ when they are totally enlightened, with knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

[@arandomautizzy]

I actually disagree with you, i don think baldwin had and was engaged in patriarchal thinking. But what hese saying is black man cant uphold traditional gender roles (i dont even like traditional gendee roles) in a white supremacist society. When going to your job you had to expect to be racially abused as part of your check, there was no justice. I wouldn't call it emasculation but to w traditional man trying to live a traditional life in the early 1900s it would definitely be considered that. I dont see it as hotep thinking from him because it was a legit very tangible thing that happened to black men (bell hooks even talks about it in her book on black men) Hoteps imagine gender in a realm that is financially unachievable, and socially impossible in our modern day. And are generally socially conservative, i don't take what baldwin is saying as conservative because it was a real experience that was happening, there was no CONSERVING because it was an actual thing happening in the present. Traditional gender roles have never worked for black people and nuclear families statistically haven't been as relevant for us (other people/ramily memebers living in the home). Maybe im misinterpreting him though i haven't finished the video yet im like half way Edit: 😂 Okay he tripping on the andre lorde section. "The only real crime is being a black man" is fucking crazy 🤦🏽‍♂️

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

The Lorde quote is… wild to say the least . Definetely turned my mind a bit more

[@ernestocastelli9005]

if you're too dumb to like Baldwin just say that. Baldwin deserves a much better introduction.

[@PrinceShakurYoutube]

Yawn