James Gosling: Java, JVM, Emacs, and the Early Days of Computing | Lex Fridman Podcast

[@lexfridman]

I really enjoyed this conversation with James. Here's the outline: 0:00 - Introduction 4:45 - Irrational numbers 8:04 - Math and programming 10:36 - Coding style 14:41 - First computer 23:54 - Lisp 27:22 - Write an Emacs implementation in C 35:15 - Early days of the Internet 45:57 - Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos 56:13 - Work hard and smart 58:48 - Open source 1:10:25 - Java 1:28:31 - Java virtual machine 1:44:05 - Android 1:47:04 - Advice

[@Monotheist137]

I love u. I appreacite you exist.

[@gregaudette]

N..nmmmmmmmmmnnmmnnnmnnnnnnnnnmnnnmnnnnnnnnnnnmnnmnnnmnnnmnn.mnnn.mo O. Ooo O Oo O On O O .o Oo O Oo O Ooo Ol Oo O Oooo O O O O O O O O O O O O O O Oo O Oo O O Oo O O O 9 Llllllp

[@ayishamohammed3102]

wqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqhgggcqqawdwfwfgwqwqwqqqqqq

[@jenslotter2453]

Z

[@vytautaskleiza1448]

Great one as always! Would be amazing to see Jaron Lanier on the podcast in the future! Him as an interviewee on "Closer to Truth" was extremely stimulating.

[@JOPOV]

Try to get Linus Torvalds on here!

[@linuxatheist5361]

Hell yeah!

That's my dream.

[@cascadengineering]

Second that.

[@user-pc4i8ege55]

I wonder what interesting topics do you expect him to be able to discuss?

[@JOPOV]

Dimitri Minaev Linux and life, or how Linux is life.

[@InfiniteDesign91]

"While some folks took drugs to expand their minds, I took concurrent programming." - Lex Fridman, 2020

[@ShubhamSauravYT]

Lol When did he say this?

[@oualid9486]

@@ShubhamSauravYT the first two minutes of the video

[@lucasjames8281]

Why not both 🤷

[@davyroger3773]

@@lucasjames8281 microdosing -> code binge

[@glowiever]

it (concurrent programming) DOES change people though

[@temprd]

These language creators are arguably the cornerstones of our modern society, absolutely wonderful podcast.

[@DeadsunPrime]

The founding fathers of the internet.

[@Gglsucksbigballz]

I would have gone with OS developers. My friend at SCO is absurdly smart. Maybe your right though...

[@khronos142]

never thought about that before but it's very true that their ideas and decisions have affected so many lives and actions. fun to visualize all of that.

[@peppigue]

Exactly. That's why I'm exploring kernel coding and compiler design and stuff like that now. Want to contribute to society. Have no idea if I'm smart enough yet...

[@maxmad3667]

Well said bro.

[@nutsbutdum]

I like these Programming Language Creators series.

[@piyh3962]

We're living among the Einsteins and Newtons of computer science.

[@LeoBattlelionskillua]

same! love these!

[@0x44Monad]

Chuck Moore next - please! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forth_(programming_language)

[@eskii2]

Good idea. Simon Peyton Jones is an interesting dude.

[@webjockey007]

What a jem It’s interesting to note the trigger points that motivated his innovative ideas Again necessity is mother of innovation. I like many of his words from laziness to what do I get out of this

[@kardredren]

"It's OK to do stupid things once", great advice from a great man.

[@darkmatter5414]

Next guest: Linus Torvalds, pls.

[@jokerpb4778]

An hour ago I was searching for that episode and realized it never happened

[@binxuwang4960]

I mean these interviews with the veterans from the early days of computer will become the oral history for programming for real . Good job!

[@dimaxjr]

This man gave me a carrear as programmer. Thank you Mr. Gosling, you changed my life and the world.

[@lucianodsb]

Did he? By creating the language? You could start a carreer by programming in another language, what gave you a carreer was yourself. He gave you one of the tools you could use to start it.

[@ndotl]

Assembly --> C --> C++ --> Java --> Apex (Salesforce)

[@alfonsomoisesmayorgaespino4086]

Lex Fridman's voice always sounds like hes saying his last words

[@Joe-ud1de]

It seems like he is about to die and doesn't care about anything anymore, just die alone in peace. But his words tells otherwise, lol.

[@nathanielwoodbury2692]

Alfonso Moises Mayorga Espinoza lol right, dude thinks so much about his words

[@mavhunter8753]

Bruh, lol.

[@WiseCheese587]

lol

[@Schcarraffone]

just in my mind Ican try that: close my eyes and imagine that Jules of pulp fiction sits there instead and interviews Gosling...

[@TarlanT]

Gosling is one of the true Rock Stars of Computer Science, along with Knuth, Thompson, Ritchie and others.

[@ritzcrackerz7664]

PuneetamTwenty which knuth are you talking about? Donald Knuth?

[@PUNEETAM20]

@@ritzcrackerz7664 oh shit, wait, I confused Knuth and Conway. Conway passed away from Covid didn't he?

[@myxail0]

@@PUNEETAM20 yeah, so delete your comment on Knuth

[@TuxmanXP]

@@MMAoracle Linus Torvalds is a worthless dust speck when compare to actually creative people.

[@TuxmanXP]

@Johannes Terzis I accept your opinion.

[@sourcecode6467]

I'm a programmer, I'd like to thank this man for all the migraines

[@mavhunter8753]

Lol

[@dcoelhog]

vor 4 Monaten Daniel Guimaraes As Gosling mentioned in the beginning of the podcast, he doesn’t care about the programming language syntax but rather what you can do with it; „let there be Java“, and there was Java (and from then on every class name were typed twice).

[@nikolacekic6317]

He took you from C to Java so arguably he reduced your migraines.

[@SankalpJain-vh8wn]

Lex is doing a pretty good job with these podcasts, some1 like myself in India has direct access to interesting and professional conversations between 2 proven intellectuals

[@MittyNuke1]

100% agree. I feel the same way, here in the US. It's amazing that just 50 years ago, you basically had to go to university to get access to this type of knowledge, and even then, what are the chances that you'd be taking a class taught by the creator of the programming language you're learning? Awesome stuff.

[@antonb.2655]

Thank you. In general.

[@liftingisfun2350]

For all

[@vforsh]

Finally someone who matches Lex’s energy

[@davenport8]

fuuuunnnnnyyyy

[@belovedblackking7853]

I believe I am experiencing an existential shift ... I'm watching and enjoying Lex Fridman more than Joe Rogan.

[@robsonvonbrum1618]

Yep, me too. Lex focuses much more in the technical part rather than the human part.

[@peppigue]

Rogan isn't entirely dumb, but I can't imagine him writing a line of html

[@bernardcummings8786]

@@peppigue you don't have to minimize his intelligence in an attempt to highlight the quality lex's podcast.

[@mikimuzika]

have not listened to a single episode of Rogan since his move to Spotify.... it just feels weird.... and he needs to have less comedy and UFC talk.... its stupid

[@pasijutaulietuviuesas9174]

@@mikimuzika I have and I don't see any difference between them on Spotify and KZbin other than the fact that I can listen to JRE with my phone in the pocket and I don't get to see retarded comments which I always loved, so it's a trade-off, but nowhere near as massive as people make it out to be. I can still get to read and write retarded comments on the clips of JRE, though. I do notice a change in Rogan's style, however, but that's not due to Spotify, more just because of how large JRE became. Joe would normally let his guests expand freely as much as they wanted, even in highly technical fields of theoretical physics, even if the audience gets lost at that point, but now he's cutting his guests off, saying "the audience won't get any of that", forcing his guests to make it as simple and concise as they can, etc. That's when JRE got stale for me, but it wasn't an instant switch like the transition to Spotify, it was a gradual change.

[@PigDogBay]

It’s a pity Lex didn’t get James thoughts about oracles take over of Sun.

[@javier.alvarez764]

Eh, Oracle's a shit company no one likes them. I used to work there, everyone resign after a few months because of micromanagement, you don't even get an increased of salary even if you work there for 3 to 5 years. Serious developers who are also up to date to current technology would find their tech too old dated.

[@MittyNuke1]

James does make an off-handed comment about the crazy price of Oracle's support contracts somewhere in there, assume that gives an idea of his feelings.

[@chrismackay9268]

I work for a small software firm and was looking back through old code and I found that we have an old Solaris repo from back in the 90's, was quite interesting to read through some of that code.

[@PigDogBay]

@@MittyNuke1 Yeah I saw that, I wanted to see him rage about Oracle as I'm still bitter they took over Sun. It's a pity Google didn't acquire the complete rights to Java at the time.

[@lubricustheslippery5028]

Yea Oracles take over of Sun must be the worst event that happened computer world. Working with Java and MySQL would probably have done another choice today.

[@cfraizer]

This podcast should totally be named "Yak with Lex".

[@barryyoung]

That was a great interview !! Disclosure - I am an ex Sun Employee . So proud to be associated with a company that spawned so many visionaries that shaped the last 20 years.... James Gosling, Andy Bechtolsheim, Bill Joy, Eric Schmidt to name but a few

[@matsf8268]

Mee to, 10 years in total, RIP Sun Microsystems :)

[@mobbs8229]

Joshua Bloch* - inspired me to my core.

[@PabloEscobar-zd7re]

Lol no Joshua Bloch here

[@ephi124]

Back in the days when I started learning Java, I had Mr. Gosling's photo as my Facebook profile pic for years. Never regretted it.

[@saideepakb]

Ryan Gosling?

[@ephi124]

@@saideepakb didn't ur daddy teach u to not put an actor who was once the sexiest man on earth as ur profile pic?

[@sparcx86channel42]

Interesting that I had a job for more than 15 years mostly based on this guy creation...

[@soyitiel]

18:00 that's actually what drove me to programming as a kid, I was amazed at how I could potentially build anything at the living room pc

[@plsreleasethekraken]

RE: issues from C/C++, would be cool to have someone from Rust on the podcast.

[@darylldaviddagondon1091]

This man is very intelligent. possibly 2nd only to Bjarne in the world in C++ Programming Language mastery. Built a virtual machine for his professor to run programs. Built JVM in C++ thereby popularizing Architecture-Neutrality, programmed a robot sailing in the ocean. And now works for AWS. Incredible.

[@thanosbaba1]

Thankyou for pointing out dangling pointers in C and C++. Thanks for Java which made production level code easier...

[@anilraghu8687]

Programming is building things inexpensively. The idea is almost forgotten,

[@MittyNuke1]

I loved hearing that James' style of coding is criticized by software engineers, haha. On one hand, I understand the importance of a set of code style/formatting requirements when you're working on a big application with many developers, so that everyone can understand everything. On the other hand, I 100% agree with Gosling's idea of packing the code onto the page as efficiently as possible. That doesn't mean making it needlessly complex, but there's an elegance to a well thought-out ternary operator nested in a conditional or something like that, where you've just packed a ton of code into one line. Of course, that works best when you're the only dev on the project, and that limits the size of the project. I was one time on a team that started that way, and my code was a mess and I barely understood it myself, but I could crank it out fast & my boss wasn't a coder and didn't care, he just wanted me to execute his ideas, and it worked great. That team later grew, and we brought on someone who was a very skilled software engineer, and whose skilled I absolutely appreciated, but he was very by-the-books and insisted we become very organized and follow best practices, etc. He was basically the opposite of the way I thought, but he produced, and was unquestionably very talented. And in terms of creating portable code other people could understand and that worked across multiple platforms, it was great, but in my opinion there was a spark of creativity that was lost, sort of felt like selling out even though it was the correct decision on paper. Sort of like the transition from the hack of a startup turning into the boring blue-chip company. My original boss had also left that position and also felt things had become less creative, as I did. (And I'm no longer with that organization so I don't know the state of affairs today).

[@masskiller9206]

@@MittyNuke1 make everything a function

[@tobylifers3390]

Mr Gossling's voice is so confident and calming. I could listen to it all day!

[@abcddd580]

1:15 priceless

[@MittyNuke1]

Lex, wow, what an incredible guest. You're really killing it with these podcasts. I love the JRE podcast like the rest of the planet but your technical background adds an element and brings in guests that people who love the sort of stuff like hearing from the founders of modern computing really enjoy. Can't wait to listen to Kernighan, Stroustrup, and some of the others next 👍

[@haythamal-dokanji9547]

Lex, please host him again and spend more time asking him about engineering in general and more narrowly about Java design and principles.

[@mistax2k]

Any time I hear that Steve Jobs was a jerk and all its variants, I kind of laugh. Not because I disagree with the person saying that he was a jerk. I'm sure "jerk" is actually a nice way to describe the kind of person Steve Jobs was quite frankly. The reason I laugh is because Steve Jobs treated highly intelligent people, who often come from an academic background and used to working in collegial way with peers, in the same way most Americans in low wage jobs get treated everyday for the rest of their lives. Most working class people have a foreman, boss, supervisor constantly treating them like shit, yelling at them, and insulting them. And more often than not, working class people are told to suck it up and walk it off. Steve Jobs' ultimate social engineering trick was find a way to get highly technical and intelligent people to follow his orders when he had absolutely little to no knowledge of how to implement any of the technology himself.

[@JunaSSB]

Best way to describe it, made me chuckle reading it lol

[@RiczWest]

What an ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT interview! Probably the best you've done and the best I've seen with Gosling - it's clear you guys clicked. Yes, please to parts 2, 3, ...

[@mohamedfahmi8210]

Thank you lex for letting me know better the creator of the language i use in my day to day working life

[@sinistan1002]

java is the most distressing thing to come along language wise in a long time. java is the new cobol

[@IrishDragon666]

"James. About your coding style. We're not as smart as you. Please dumb it down."

[@nikolai1714]

Scary how smart the guys that created our modern society was/are.

[@theshermantanker7043]

This guy along with Bjarne quite literally paved the way for programming to blow up into what it is like today. Everyone may flock to fancy new languages like Python, but little do they know that without C and C++ Python wouldn't even exist, and without Java more than half the tools needed, like IDEs, wouldn't even be around today

[@DivijShrivastava]

One of the best podcasts. Best value adding thing on youtube.

[@serhiiprokhorov6976]

I can not agree on "stuck to particular machine". It is more like "stuck to particular compiler". Do not let C/C++ people go into assembler code and ask them stick to STD lib and the code is free of a platform. Now, rebuild it on whatever general use platform you want and enjoy full power of whatever CPU is there.

[@ocallesp]

Very lovely to listen to James Gosling talking about engineering in software !!

[@_RMSG_]

I'm extremely thankful that modern C++ (and I guess modern languages on average) tackles so many bug-prone patterns, I don't have to feel like I'm always chasing pointers anymore

[@sapito169]

James Gosling will always be the father of java in my hart oracle will never fill the void of sun

[@sparcx86channel42]

never.

[@stevenhe3462]

This never goes old: "C is unsafe and pointer bugs are hard so I'm creating a new language." 🤣🤣🤣

[@eightsprites]

Think how many languages we wouldn’t have, if it wasn’t for people not wanting to learn C.

[@nailsonlandim]

Thanks for the podcast! I always find amazing listening to them because it would be a chance in lifetime to talk 5 minutes with him, but here I had almost 2 hours. amazing

[@MegaKayway]

I don't get the need to make your code so compact, nowadays you get software that can collapse code that is encapsulated and most people have at least 1080p monitors and you can even change font size. Not saying that you shouldn't condense your code but you do have some space to make clear what you have done with your code

[@vaibhawc]

How come we didn't talk about Clojure. Also, please bring Rich Hickey if it suits.

[@AmitChawhanamitc005]

Looking forward to watching 2nd interviewing with James.

[@VoltageLP]

Loved him in The Notebook

[@jsprowse]

He has really let himself go.

[@pmcate2]

@7:10. GAYdel incompleteness theorems?? LEX I don't think I've ever heard anyone butcher a name that bad lol! It's pronounced "Gerdel"

[@virus3103]

I go with your choice: concurrent programming.

[@Beelzebubba1983]

I love these podcasts, I’m sort of new to the idea but it amazes me how much we did just for fun, I think that’s what’s kind of missing from the new tech companies compared to 30 plus years ago. The thing for me was just having fun and learning all anew is so much fun too. Thank you both for your time and effort in educating and just having fun in an informative way!

[@RobRobJuice]

Thanks for everything you do, Lex. Please try to get Andrej Karpathy on the show. Keep rockin' on!

[@bj_lo7506]

if you're still interested he had karpathy on the show a few days ago

[@RobRobJuice]

@@bj_lo7506 Yep, finally :D

[@amauryrodriguez6033]

Hello Lex, what a privilege and joy it was to enjoy this interview with James Gosling. Amazing!!! Five stars for you. Thanks also for the interview with Brian Kernighan, brilliant too.

[@camillacalhoun1089]

If you’re thinking of going to London, please find and interview renegade inventor and Gaia theorist James Lovelock. He’s 101 and has fascinating stories to tell. Last year MIT published his Novacene, what he calls the post anthropocene epoch. Absolutely love the depth of your podcasts. Thank you.

[@FL-wk9bb]

Invite Clojure inventor Rich Hickey!

[@bbarre4601]

Java developer here. The vast majority of people will never know how the decisions and work of nerds like Gosling have impacted the world.

[@MrDebranjandutta]

I would've been interested to hear his reaction on Kotlin

[@user-fg6ng7ej6w]

thanks for the video. Could you kindly make an interview with Clojure creator Rich Hickey? he is quite an interesting person.

[@ownagejuice1394]

wish james gosling was one of my grandparents lmao and Markus "Notch" Persson my uncle who I go drinking and night clubbing with

[@povijestpovijest9569]

Which one would you trade?

[@7xr1e20ln8]

Ask him nicely and you can be his grandkid.

[@ownagejuice1394]

jimbo how is he a sellout?

[@NiloRiver]

My third time listening to this piece of pure inspiration. Thank you! High level conversation in every aspect.

[@rokker333]

Now I know why Java is slow 🤣 SCNR -- honestly, great interview again and highest respect for James Gosling of what he achieved and how humble he stayed. Even though I probably will never fall in love with Java in this life.

[@Sven_Dongle]

Java is only slow if you are crap for a programmer.

[@nazgulizm]

Such an awesome guy to listen to. I hope he comes on for another interview session.

[@ChrisSeltzer]

James' description of transforming code into a picture of a machine resonates with me, that's exactly how I see code as well.

[@makers_lab]

A legend. Had a copy of Gosling emacs at Uni in the 80's and still remember the joy of going through his famous terminal update code. Thanks Lex for this terrific interview.

[@rolbar3149]

I agree Linus Torvalds or John Carmack please.

[@avina12341]

Thank you sir, My earnings is largely dependent on your creation

[@fc6827]

My life is better because this man invented Java. I make good money because of this dude

[@HopDubstep]

Good one, grateful I get to listen to people like this in this format, possibly my favorite thing about the internet these days

[@MethodOverRide]

Imagine learning programming on a machine that had .3 of a Mhz and now have a phone with processors measured in 3.x Ghz. The progress in his lifetime for computing is crazy to think about. Even for me I remember starting out with a 386 on AOL not knowing what a hyperlink was and now I'm a programmer. It's crazy to think about what the next 20 years will be like.

[@bounty1402]

metaverse and AI

[@Swaygooy]

@@bounty1402 that’s like comparing a typewriter to a word processor. The jump to the next “thing” will be much more vast.

[@iacopocarlini]

I currently have food on my table and a roof above my head thanks to this man. Thanks from Italy

[@abhiroopsarkar855]

Just amazing! The lineup of guests you have consistently managed to bring here!

[@worgenzwithm14z]

"LISP is definitely on my LIST" 🤣

[@solderbuff]

14:42 - the story about PDP-8 reminds me how Ken Thompson wrote UNIX on PDP-7. They even look kindo' similar with Ken.

[@OnionKnight541]

the graphic tee is something that future historians will be so perplexed about... it's beyond fashion, it's a direction to the root user's library

[@crazieeez]

Not sure why colleges use Java as a programming tool to teach their classes. Java was riddled with a bunch of lock in by big corporation. Glad the Oracle vs Google lawsuit was over. Ugly as f.

[@hemanthkumarar]

1:15 While some folks took drugs to expand their minds, I took concurrent programming. - absolute gold.

[@Ben-vu1nb]

As a programmer I thank you for this video. Amazing!

[@reflv]

Would love to hear @Lex interview Brendan Eich (creator of JavaScript)

[@ismajim]

He already did it kzbin.info/www/bejne/oaOlYZikd8qGn6c

[@jsprowse]

Lex, great conversation with a Canadian kid who done good in the big city. I taught Java in Calgary years ago and the students were always amazed and inspired that somebody from their hometown created the software underlying so many of the systems they used everyday. Thoroughly enjoyed the backstory and insights.

[@kambizzamanifar8890]

JAVA is the best programming language much better than CSharp or other shit oop langs.

[@NomadicBrian]

First languages for me in college were FORTRAN, ASSEMBLER then finally COBOL. Card punched code read through a card reader. My first work study job was a Computer Operator running the RJE station. Monitor, two printers and a card reader. The student monitors came in during my Junior year and what a difference it made.

[@i486DX66]

Thanks James. I've been using Java for 20 years.

[@stephenpaek9175]

James Gosling is a true giant in computing

[@oceaneuropa1117]

A God level expert and artist that all Java developers and users should worship. I came to know James Gosling not by person but through his code, which saved me for thousands of times. Without him, the Java world would have been empty and dark.

[@AlecsStan]

1.25X you're welcome

[@sachinelearning]

Lex! This episode has given me so much happiness! Thank you!! keeping making these wonderful podcasts with these wise sages!!

[@minionsystems]

I agree 100% with dense coding style and the reasons he gave for doing it. You cannot understand a program unless you can see it. It makes code more maintainable. I've been programming since 1968. I use only necessary white space and 1 space indents - works great and you get used to it quickly.

[@vibovitold]

Hardware has changed, we no longer have to code on small bulky monitors that can only display 80x25 characters (in poor resolution anyway). A lot of legacy coding conventions were created with those limitations, rather than human comfort, in mind. You can get used to anything, people get used to prison life if they have to, doesn't necessarily mean it's optimal. (Technically speaking it's the "local minimum").

[@minionsystems]

@@vibovitold I code on a 4k monitor so 80x25 does not apply. Gosling is right, If you get used to dense coding, it helps because you can see more of your code without scrolling so you don't to have to remember what just scrolled off. It helps no matter how big your display is. Legacy coding conventions for java were always to use a lot of white space but I found the dense coding worked better for me. Also, IDE's can switch styles quickly so it really isn't an issue if you want to use your own style. Prison? Really?

[@kahnfatman]

In his hunt for the mysterious pointer bug, James could never think of the JavaAbstractFactoryInterfaceImpl.

[@judedavis92]

“While some folks in college took drugs to expand their minds, I took concurrent programming.” ~ Lex Fridman

[@benjaminsmith3151]

The best thing I like about Java is that it fills in all the holes left in operating systems, especially around graphics.

[@MoneybagsUkulele]

Taking notes was really getting in the way of my productivity so now I just memorize everything.

[@jakehuang3545]

"Often I find that people some of the people's stupidest ideas are because they're insufficiently lazy" -- best quote I have heard so far

[@DavisTibbz]

Java was my first programming language. Thank you sir.

[@noahwhalen3398]

Fantastic interview! Lex I love the slow cadence & relaxed nature of your show.

[@michaelscofield1970]

So this is the man responsible for Java, eh? Hellfire awaits him

[@giovannipcherchi6291]

come to Ireland Lex! :)

[@zakarylittle6767]

I took both drugs and concurrent programming to expand my mind in uni. Nothing makes learning locking easier than the devils lettuce.

[@ibrahimhussainali9240]

Agreed brother

[@dennis_johnson]

I’ve never been able to study cooked hahaha

[@TheLiquidpsy]

You always look a bit high in the intros 🤣 or are you just tired ?

[@Gome.o]

This... has become my new backing track to fall asleep to.

[@StevenMartinGuitar]

"Often, I find that some of people's stupidest ideas are because they are insuffiently lazy" - James Gosling. Amazing quote!

[@5pp000]

Larry Wall also has a good one: "The three great virtues of a programmer are laziness, impatience, and hubris." Laziness, to want the machine to do the work; impatience, to want it to do the work quickly; and hubris, to believe you can get it to do that.

[@satheesh1430]

I was waiting for this .. Thank you