James Harden and the History of Unhappy NBA Superstars Being Traded | The Bill Simmons Podcast

[@nabetse1999]

Really cool transition at 12:24. From talking about Sprewell to Marbury but showing him defending the other. I just want to tell the person who edits this videos that we appreciate small stuff like that.

[@jdm2339]

but then they also show footage of chris webber playing at home v. GSW when Bill talked about him getting booed any time he goes back to Golden St. LOL it's all good tho, still great work overall.

[@tonymcfly84]

Wouldn’t be 2015 Warriors be the last pure title? Green, Curry and Thompson were all drafted by GSW.

[@mcardy250]

Yeah, I mean, there were all the injuries on the cavs team they beat on that finals, i don’t know if Bill would see that as something to qualify them as not “pure”. But by his own definition of pure as a team that was constructed by draft, i would agree with you

[@peteanderson6121]

I thought the same thing when I listened to this

[@jjgabbana]

@@mcardy250 i guarantee you he just forgot

[@markochamber7540]

Barnes too, 2012 draft

[@therzathegza]

Yeah, can't believe Bill missed that lol

[@andimencias493]

Yall remember when Bill Simmons demanded a trade from ESPN

[@bigchris3000]

He did pretty much force his way out of there....worked out ok for him tho

[@mthedu]

Haha. Wow. You got me there. Funny stuff.

[@weightpushweight5769]

@@bigchris3000 Seems like it’s ok for anyone to except players.

[@vincentho3792]

No I don't remember, because that never happened. He was in the final year of his contract with ESPN. He got reprimanded for talking shit about Roger Goodell on Dan Patrick's Show in May. By September the same year ESPN decided not to give him another contract (Though John Skipper the ESPN exec also claims he fired him). Regardless whether he was fired or not Bill never demanded a trade to a different company mid contact (that doesn't happen in business). Nor did he force his way out of anything, his contract was up anyway. I personally think Harden should be allowed to ask for a trade. It's a business and it's up to the Rockets to decide to do a deal or not. But don't make shit up to fit your narrative 🙄🙄🙄

[@RJLKMRD]

Love it!!!

[@czcbearsrule1]

“The last pure title is the spurs” “Only steph curry doesn’t jump teams” so are the gsw a pure title or not (they won without durant)

[@Yourztrulydaboy]

unfortunately yeah id say its a pure title

[@Rileylmao_]

they wouldn’t have won without injuries so I would say no and if anything its the Cavs from 2016 since they drafted Bron and Kyrie

[@Rileylmao_]

@Aaron Posey yeah because Bogut is the same as Kyrie and Love lol

[@ragoflex]

I thought exactly this! 2015

[@Rileylmao_]

@@jonpaulevans31 so a title when a teams 2nd and 3rd best players are hurt is pure but the other ones isn’t because Lebron changed teams once even tho he went back to his hometown team that drafted him to win and he succeeded, thats some backward ass logic.

[@cyrusmaccachran3030]

i’d never seen that clip of steve francis tearing up when he got drafted. that’s hilarious

[@turk3sh]

Remember that like it was yesterday. He was so pissed lmaoo

[@bigchris3000]

Yeah I remember that well lol

[@WinstonTheFrog]

And to think if he would've bought a condo in downtown Vancouver he would be a billionaire today.

[@illAkhi]

A nice clip for the Ringer to sneak a quick face jab on Steve Francis to let their feathers out. Good sequencing.

[@deandean2010]

I wouldn’t want to be a Grizzles either that team was WACK!!!!

[@i0tech1906]

"I'm pretty sure that choking your coach it's an effective way to demand a trade" 🤔

[@brotherdandy]

James reads this comment, strikes his beard, and ideas begin percolating.

[@louishanson7584]

He tried against mchale and got whooped

[@__L_S_B__]

@@louishanson7584 oh ya?

[@stinestizzlethegreat6887]

Alexa call spreewell

[@diego-dias]

"The fear for me is that we're gonna turn into this league where everybody wants to go to the same 7 teams and the competitive balance is shot and we don't get to actually root for the arc of a team." As someone who has followed fútbol my whole life, well, now you know why it's common for people outside the U.S. to note the irony of how U.S. sports are (save for the "franchise" of it all) organized in this equality-minded, almost anti-capitalist way. Present-day football is exactly what you described, everybody wants to play for that handful of billionaire teams because a largely corrupt organization (FIFA) has allowed them to exist unchecked in that way for so long. Harden's situation is very, very analogous to Philippe Coutinho's recent move from Liverpool to Barcelona, where he faked a back injury to accelerate a transfer. Not coincidentally the more meatheaded football fans are "Messi fans" and "Cristiano Ronaldo fans", the endpoint Bill suggests in the video... and already a thing in the NBA. What we're seeing now in basketball is just a generation of athletes smart enough to realize they can leverage their talent in a poorly regulated market. The result is that rich teams and strong brands remain rich teams and strong brands. Murderer's Row Yankees type of stuff. Loyalty, community, etc have never had anything to do with it. "It's 2k"? Nah, just neoliberalism applied to sports. I wonder which sleeper NBA market will be acquired by Qatar Investment Authority first.

[@autoworkercyr]

Spot on comment. Couldn't agree with you more.

[@josenogueira9986]

I don't know how they haven't yet bought a team there. Maybe the league doesn't let them or something, but with how things are right know with the hard hit that they are taking finacially with covid they might just open up the doors to some oil billionaire that is just going to buy up the best players on the league and make a ridiculous team that is basically unbeatable year after year. The last time a genuinely good team won the champions league without beeing owned by some billionaire or beeing part of one of the bigger markets of footbal (england, germany and spain) was FC Porto in 04 with Mourinho and that will never again happen, because there is no space for these types of teams to compete in europe they just simply don't have the money to do so

[@northside4767]

Do fútbol franchises have salary caps?

[@josenogueira9986]

@@northside4767 no not really a cap but rather a system of finacial fairplay. First, it's not possible to set up a salary cap in europe due to the fact that clubs are established in different contries with diferente gdp's and therefore what seems a reasenable amount to set up as a cap in england is wayyyyy different than what seems reasenable to set up in let's say greece or belgium. Then there's the problem that teams in smaller markets just get ransacked every year and are basically mushroom farms for the bigger clubs and don't really have the oportunity to even try to convince the players to stay and they can't anyway because they don't have the money. The finacial fair play basically limits the amount teams can spend on a given season and they have to break eaven or else they get penalised ( it's way more complex than this but you can read the rest online😅)

[@kingcrum8039]

When will the media take responsibility for what the sports especially the nba has turned into? With the 24/7 sports shows,radio, and podcast all focused on rings and free agency. Their need for content is a huge problem looking for the smallest things to talk about on there shows; all first take and undisputed talks about is why Lebron is not Jordan because Jordan has 6 rings and other players look at this and say hey I don’t want to be like Malone or Barkley and every time my name is brought up its always I don’t have a ring and not I was a great player who held down a franchise even players today like dame and melo it’s always they never won anything; so they can’t have it both ways where they judge players only by how many rings they have but also wants players to stay with the franchise that drafted them but if the team that drafted them has a bad front office the story would be how they underachieved and not how bad the front office was; imagine if lebron stayed in Cleveland his whole career and only won one or two titles I promise u they would say he underachieved and I’m not for all this player movement but I understand if I’m not going lose I’m going to lose my way and not relying on the front office

[@joits]

"Loose" is an adjective used to describe things that are not tight or contained. It can be used as a verb meaning to set free or release - (i.e. the hounds have been loosed) - but it is rarely used this way. "Lose" is a verb that means to suffer a loss, to be deprived of, to part with or to fail to keep possession of.

[@jasper8922]

Your complaint about the media talking too much is because us, the consumers, want too much. We want to know everybody's opinion on a take and we want to know insider details. If nobody cared, there wouldn't be a market or reason to talk so much. Media only produced as much as the public demands.

[@kingcrum8039]

@@jasper8922 I agree but who controls the narrative or story lines just a year ago the media was telling us melo couldn’t play anymore and was washed up and wouldn’t be happy with being a role player and now look at him doing the exact opposite of what they said

[@livefomthebarbecue468]

facts, James Harden is one of the greatest players of all time and has led houston to some deep playoff runs, something the city hasn't had since Hakeem was there. That should br enough for him to get his respect but no, the media and these brainwashed fans think everything is about a ring. It's about being a great player, great teammate , and securing the bag for your family. All this ring counting bullshit has ruined the NBA.

[@kingcrum8039]

@@livefomthebarbecue468 thank you and I’m not a fan of his style of basketball but what he has done for Houston should be enough he tried and didn’t win and that’s okay but no the media will always say he’s a loser because he didn’t win a ring

[@ChefSwooby]

Last “pure” title, if we’re going from the basis that this means a team built around players drafted to the franchise, is the 15’ Warriors.

[@nabetse1999]

Remember, we aren't supposed to give credit to the Warriors lol

[@ChefSwooby]

@@nabetse1999 very, very true. 15’ is forgotten because of the Durant years, and it’s a damn shame.

[@bikramarora1819]

@@ChefSwooby but also because Lebron fans seem to think their guy is the only person to ever suffer from his teammates getting injured

[@joemagwood6096]

Exactly that was their players they drafted & developed.

[@KimarKurosaski]

@@bikramarora1819 yeah but there’s a difference between certain teammates being hurt and 2 all star/all nba players being hurt. Outside of this years finals I can’t think of other times that had happened in the finals.

[@quantumcommunities7618]

That pic of Harden in the club with the gaudy green shirt is meme food.

[@jasetran2186]

What is kawhi doing with him there 💀

[@lindaw6144]

Something I'd expect to see from a bad LSD trip.

[@mikeewallace6188]

Why?

[@gregcollier2]

He forgot his hero...Larry Bird refused to join the Celtics unless he got his bag. You know why the Bird Rule came to be

[@imit]

As He should. Bird deserved that money lol

[@Hazztech]

@@imit well, maybe not. Tim duncan didn't demand it

[@deadarmd]

​@@imit as a rookie bird was at like 25 8 and 8 with great shooting...and 2+ combined blocks/steals.

[@tomdavis3878]

Bill: "Harden's going to force a trade, either to Brooklyn or Philly" Harden: "Por que no los dos?"

[@PatrickMHoey]

Well put, Bill. It’s aggravating also that the “hot take” idiots on TV provoke it, by criticizing every player like if they haven’t won big by 24 they should look to be traded.

[@thetrib1]

What 24 year old's looking to be traded? I think it's extremely over blown

[@jakelaponder7565]

@@thetrib1 so we are just pretending Philly isn't about trade Ben Simmons away for harden?

[@thetrib1]

@@jakelaponder7565 so ben is looking to be traded??? or are the 76ers looking to trade for harden by trading ben?

[@AK-74K]

You are right. Player's greatness is now judges by titles only, and the media fuels it.

[@ramonalejandrosuare]

@@thetrib1 Kristaps Porzingis for example.

[@YeeSoest]

Thank you mentioning how special 2011 was. Dirk became a ligitimized legend when they won it, immediately flying up the all time lists...and that's just one of dozens of aspects that made this my favorite title ever won

[@Derrden]

“Clippers jumped in last second” weird way of saying the league literally vetoed the trade for “basketball reasons” Bill.

[@Doomthinkingman]

He likes to make shit up to fit a narrative he wants to spin

[@NelGill1]

@@Doomthinkingman And he hates the Lakers because he’s a Boston homer.

[@capitanawesome44]

Also mentioned the steak of Gasol never mentioned that GM from Minnesota had a BETTER offer on table for Garnett but somehow he makes it to Celtics(where did that GM play in his career?) he is a Celtics fan misremembers plenty of crap

[@OGSVN]

@@capitanawesome44 garnett had a ntc

[@justingoldman3026]

Yeah, I like Bill, but he's the biggest Boston homer of all time (and because of that, he's super anti-lakers)...The league stopped Chris Paul from being a Laker, not "the Clippers jumping in at the last second." Plus, it seems like the offer the Lakers made was actually better.

[@tylerinnes3178]

Wilt did the same thing on warriors. He made the finals lost to Boston then the next season they only get 17 wins. Then he forces a trade to sixers and his old coach of warriors follows. Then he beats warriors, his old team in 67 finals

[@hockeyfan1799]

Jimmy wasn't unhappy in Chicago; he wanted to stay with us but we chose to trade him to rebuild.

[@ngc-fo5te]

Yeah he was unhappy.

[@srinikreddy7473]

It was either him or fred hoiberg. GarPax chose Hoiberg and decided it was time to rebuild. Jimmy wanted a team, not a washed up wade and rowdy rondo

[@gators9570]

Jimmy is sort of justified in every single team he’s left. Chicago he was nothing but great for and it was sorta a mutual separation. Minnesota he wanted players held accountable and when they weren’t he showed them that their culture was shit and that they were built to lose (still are). In Philly he saw obvious flaws in coaching that weren’t addressed along with weird personality quirks. He gets to the team he wants through free agency and suddenly they make the finals. He was completely right

[@michaelcollins966]

@@gators9570 agree. Philly actually decided to let him go because they 'couldn't handle him'. Minnesota and Philly have been shown to have a losing mindset, while Jimmy was vindicated last season.

[@surestaylaredo7265]

Players should ONLY play and shut up!! they have no right to speak their minds! most of them are high school grad mindset. All they do is listen to rap and sell dope... Just play and be quiet

[@jasonl7937]

I like how Bill adds Lebron to this list even though he was smart enough to not sign long term contracts to give himself leverage and he never asked to be traded.

[@charlesdunn442]

When Pat Riley hit a rough patch with the Knicks he left for Miami. When Bill Simmons hit a rough patch with Grantland he left to start The Ringer. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

[@vinnybrown1122]

Bill Simmons isn’t an athlete we’re competitiveness is important to how fans enjoy his job. I agree with Riley though he bolted when things got tough

[@allsystemsgo8678]

They didn't sign huge contracts and then the second something goes wrong decide to bail. The players want to all the perks but none of the responsibility.

[@sunsunavery4237]

john elway was a thing before danny ferry and eli manning

[@bigchris3000]

Lol idk man that baseball threat was pretty credible

[@jasonl7937]

Bill Bradley, Larry Bird type. Translation: he’s white. Lol.

[@matthewharvey2162]

Imagine that: players looking at teams the same way teams look at players.

[@surestaylaredo7265]

Players should SHUT UP and behave properly! ONLY owners can treat their players like a business transaction! Governors?? STFU! I prefer OWNERS

[@ryanshockling8586]

@@surestaylaredo7265 To be fair, refusing to honor your contract is not business-like

[@vinnybrown1122]

@@surestaylaredo7265 in fairness competitiveness and loyalty to the team is apart of fan enjoyment. Nba players have very unique jobs that I don’t think should be compared with other jobs

[@mjjumps]

It’s Heart Breaking how bad I hate the NBA these days

[@brendantoungate8287]

Spurs fans still boo Kawhi mercilessly.

[@lisandro4612]

San Antonio one of the few actually passionate and loyal fanbases in the NBA.Not many fanbases like that left anymore.

[@blueface9348]

Cavs were booing LeBron 4 straight years until he came back and gave them a title, OKC still boo KD, Indiana still boo Paul George, Utah still boo Gordon Hayward...etc i don't know what tf Bill is talking about fans still boo players lol

[@gators9570]

That’s good to hear. Most of the time it seems like people forgot or don’t care

[@deeppatel7496]

@@lisandro4612 only the raptors and spurs have true fanbases

[@ccr35582]

New York Knicks: Getting in their own way since 1975

[@Cbrunning849]

I'm Canadian and even I was offended when they threw Oaks out.

[@TheIcemanthomas]

@@Cbrunning849 and then threw Melo out.

[@KTF0]

They could've had Doc and Kareem. They are more Browns than the Browns.

[@SuperNationstate]

Is that even true of the pre-isiah Thomas knicks? They got a good two decades out of the Patrick Ewing era

[@ccr35582]

@@SuperNationstate literally part of it got mentioned in here and was the reason I made the joke. They were Kareem’s #1 choice for a trade destination and they had more to offer Milwaukee than LA did. They screwed it up. Y’know, just one of the consensus top 5 players ever, who’s from New York. The Bernard King years were mostly ok but just a first round exit team at best. They then sucked into getting Patrick Ewing and then never put him with another star. And then the James Dolan era happens. Which is bad from 2000 on both pre and post Isiah. But ye he was a really bad spot.

[@kg21mack]

This is why Bill is the GOAT to me. He has the experience and the chops from his journalism days, and loves to bring up historical context, especially in relevant stories.

[@75aces97]

21:39 The owners did this to themselves multiple ways. They demanded shorter contracts and got it. But they also demanded a hard cap and player max ceilings. What you have is a situation where big stars like Lebron can't possibly make their real value. If you're a star, and you can only make the same amount of money in about 12 places, stars feel like they might as well get the spot where they can get a title. Giannis will be denigrated if he doesn't at least reach the finals, and the Bucks can't pay him substantially more than other teams, so why stay? Michael Jordan never wanted to leave the Bulls because they could pay him $36 million to stay (at a time when the whole team cap was only about $35M), whereas no team could have paid him half that as a free agent if he'd left. Teams can't do that with their resident stars anymore because of the rules they themselves demanded.

[@TheRealMrKGB]

I agree with almost everything you say. I would also say the modern era of "player empowerment" you're speaking of is also partially the result of teams aggressively leaning into tanking. It's always occurred to a degree, but when the Sixers went with "The Process" and it emerged from the shadows, it became an organizational strategy, sometimes at the expense of a star's prime. Now you're going to win in the next two to three years, or blow it up.

[@thetrib1]

yup... a lot of it is on the front office. players want to compete so they leave.

[@truepokerdealer]

The irony is that everything truly shifted when Lebron went to Miami. That team took all the hate of the fanbase for players deciding where to play, and then KD afterwards, and players choosing their destinations and getting support was inevitable because it gets rewarded with titles when done right. And you can blame Lebron, but imagine if Dan Gilbert had been a good owner. Just because Jordan won titles with a bad owner doesn't mean things were balanced. This is the time of the entrepreneur. This is the time where Bill Simmons talks about the top 100 greatest players of all time and number of titles is a big factor. It isn't surprising that NBA players feel that pressure. No one wants to be Charles Barkley and get made fun of by players with championships. A player isn't "all time" till they get a ring. Imagine if KG hadn't gotten injured in '09. The Celtics would probably have won at least 1 of the next 2 titles and Kobe may still be stuck at 3 rings and Shaq could have kept asking how his a** tastes. KG and Pierce could have had 3 each and been remembered for it. There's nothing to be afraid of for where this is heading. This is actually the most balanced that the league could be. Until the next CBA anyway

[@nikosvault]

"There's nothing to be afraid of for where this is heading. This is actually the most balanced that the league could be." 2015 Cavs-Warriors 2016 Cavs Warriors 2017 Cavs Warriors 2918 Cavs Warriors

[@truepokerdealer]

Golden State drafted their team and added one star. Even without Durant, they easily could have been there every year. Cleveland drafted Kyrie, Lebron came back after being drafted there originally, and Kevin Love wasn't the reason they won a title. Don't just look at the results and ignore how things actually happened. And now both of those teams are done at the moment.

[@santiagoskywalker]

"I would like to say that choking your coach is a pretty effective way to get traded" LMAO

[@Jarlisson0]

This definition of "pure title" don't make any sense.

[@MH-et4bo]

It’s based on racism

[@broaddusmarines]

Before the start of players getting together and forming “the Super Teams” and players being mercenaries for 2-3 years. So about the early 2010s. It’s not racist (that’s a simple minded and lazy answer btw)....it’s purist.

[@joeltaylor7266]

Being a Pacer fan, I can confirm Paul George gets booed relentlessly every time he enters bankers life fieldhouse

[@arturasmarma525]

It's all of massive pressure by the media to win titles.

[@mrrhombus716]

Not just the media. The fans shit on teams like Golden State for the 3-1 thing, but that team made it to a Finals, which would have been an achievement back in the day like it was for Charles Barkley. If you don't win you don't get respect from anyone unfortunately.

[@arturasmarma525]

@@mrrhombus716 Harden has a better record than LBJ vs GSW + KD. but no1 is takling about it..

[@blueface9348]

@@arturasmarma525 Harden had stacked teams and he choked every single time, not to mention CP3 was the best player on that team, that's why the whole team collapsed after he went down. Harden also lost to the 2016 Warriors WITHOUT Curry in 5 games and got outscored by Igoudala and Klay in game 5. He got blown out by 40 points by a Spurs team with no Kawhi or Tony Parker and he only scored 10 points in game 6, 2015 got benched against the Clippers and his team came back from down 3-1, 2018 shitting the bed in game 7, 2019 choking to a Warriors team without KD. i could go on and on about how many times Harden choked, never compare that dude to Bron

[@arturasmarma525]

@@blueface9348 Harden lost game 7 by 9 points. Same year LBJ got bounced 4-0 on average by15 pts. + he had his all star playing with him. And LBJ is better? One year before LBJ lost 4 - 1. I am sorry who is better? LBJ played 4 years in by far the best team in NBA heat. He choked so hard vs Dallas how D-wade beaten them by himself and + LBJ he lost? . Than he won 1 vs OKC. Than he was down 3-2 down 3 he last seconds of the game. Bron as a true leader takes last shot. OFC bricks it so faking hard so Bosh gets a rebound and Ray saves the day. Its basically a loose for LBJ since he clearly choked and got saved. than next year Spurs took a revenge so hard LBJ is still a proud owner of loosing the finals by the biggest margins.

[@blueface9348]

@@arturasmarma525 This is why you don't waste your time talking hoops with casuals lol this dweeb just ignored everything i said about Harden and just repeated whatever talking points Skip Bayless says "record margin" lmao this clown talking about who lost by less points like we didn't see Bron drop 51/8/8 in game 1 and then hurt his hand, then called washed up Love an All Star, compared 2006 Wade to 2011 Wade then said the most casual sh't ever "Ray Allen saved him" Bron dropped 16 points in the 4th quarter of game 6 and 37 points and the dagger in Kawhi's face in game 7 lmao. you're clearly a child who don't understand basketball so imma just end this with 4 mvps, 4 rings, 4 finals mvps and 10 finals > a mf who had KD, Russ, Ibaka, Dwight, CP3, Melo, MVP Russ and only reached 1 finals in his entire career and scored 12 ppg. foh goof

[@davidvillela7476]

Man, bill is perfect analysing nba that i dont even care hes a boston fan, what a great content, only a guy who loves the game could pull that off

[@angterrana]

Back in the day the players needed the NBA and their respective organizations. Now the NBA needs the players

[@ccr35582]

Kobe almost being a Piston is insane too. As a Pistons fan would have definitely loved it. The 07-08 Pistons won 59 games and went to the Eastern Conference Finals and took the Celtics to 6 as they were. But Kobe with Chauncey, Rasheed, Tayshaun and McDyess. Gotta think they win that title or have a really good shot. But of course Dr. Buss being a great owner, its no surprise they kept him.

[@LiamborninDC]

I actually think you can make a case that the Lakers won the Shaq trade more than Miami. The Lakers got Odom, who was the 3rd or 4th best player on two championships with the Lakers. They also got Caron Butler, who they traded to the Wizards for Kwame Brown, which sounds terrible but they traded Kwame Brown for Pau Gasol, who was the 2nd best player on those 2 championships and was the reason the Lakers won a game 7.

[@johnexley.family]

This is why Damian Lillard has become my favorite athlete in all of sports, bar none (aside from every single individual on our beloved New England Patriots, of course). Dame DOLLA now feels like the contrarian of this era. Invincibly loyal to his teammates at the Portland Trail Blazers, invincibly loyal to the city of Portland, invincibly loyal to the city he grew up in back in Oakland. Dame is enduring the ups and downs of the challenges in competing for a title. Personally, I just am so motivated by his approach.

[@gators9570]

I really hope the additions they made this year somehow get them over the top. Lillard getting a ring there would be like Dirk getting his in Dallas

[@johnexley.family]

(@@gators9570) - 100% agree

[@nabetse1999]

I don't think the players have any obligation to fans, Bill. We don't give a shit about them once they can't perform at the highest level so why should they be expected to put us as their professional priority. Don't mean to say this is ideal but stop it with the "But, what about the children?!" narrative.

[@pluto545]

I totally agree, in most other professions, you can leave, quit or walk out without any regards to any moral obligations. Players are only exercising their rights to what they think it's best.

[@dylanf3108]

Without the fans they wouldn’t have money they have an obligation your head is just too far up your own ass too see it. Also that’s not true Kobe was kept around well past his prime and still cared about, so was Dan Marino, so was Dirk.

[@oluwaseyijohnson3162]

@@dylanf3108 you're naming superstars what about players like Trevor Ariza, Isiah Thomas, Jeff Teague, Ricky Rubio, yall don't care about these players why would thy care about you

[@dennisrossonero]

Great vid. The balance has shifted the other way. I also thing it's the teams that caused the cynicism to develop. When Derozan learns he's being traded by his 9-year-long team via the news, it's the team that signals "loyalty is dead". Now the players are giving it back to them.

[@revcrow7154]

I like how Bill glazed over the Jason Kidd trade. He won a title after that.

[@justingoldman3026]

He did - but he wasn't the Star he had been at that point.

[@johnwall4mvp463]

Bill is absolutely right about the animosity from the fans being less than it was 20 years ago. I'll never forget this past season in DC I got shocked looks from fellow wizards fans in wizards jerseys for booing Giannis during player intros. Like I should be able to boo a guy who has no relation to me or my native city and is about to brutally destroy my favorite team.

[@androor110]

Amazing content from Bill. I wish he could create a catalog for work like this that has a obviously amount of research’s and care.

[@puffontheradio6021]

Great piece, as a sixers fan I’m on an island where I don’t want harden especially with 2yrs left and I’m a huge Simmons fan and when chuck left for the suns, a ton of fans seem to forget how he screwed the team because he couldn’t take criticism in the media, and now he’s in the media criticizing 👀

[@justingoldman3026]

That was definitely part of it. I am a HUGE Barkley fan (he's my favorite Sixer of all time), but, the Sixers did screw him by really struggling to put a good team around him. Barkley is STILL bitter about the Moses trade (and he should be...it's one of the worst trades of all time) - which REALLY set the franchise back. But, the part about the media scrutiny is definitely true.

[@johnsmith4912]

I'd say a big part of why fans don't care as much anymore is your own team and Danny Ange. You fucked over Isaiah Thomas badly. He played his heart out for you in the playoffs even while injured to try to get you a title and you toss him aside like a dog. That singular decision contributed greatly to fan apathy with regard to "loyalty" among players and teams. Teams clearly aren't loyal to players, so why should players be loyal to teams? It's easily to relate to a single player who more than likely came from poverty than it is to relate to a corporate machine like a franchise.

[@johnsmith4912]

easier*

[@csy9366]

That's why I like Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki more and more. Players today don't even try their best to win games, they try to get on the best team.

[@MSKUNES48]

This might be one of the most important conversations that the NBA needs to be having. And I think Bill does have a great point that consistency and riding through the natural ups and downs of professional sports is becoming undervalued towards long-term success. But anyone else find his whole speech dripping with a little irony because he jumped from SI to ESPN, had an amazing thing going with Grantland, and then that relationship blew up which caused him to start The Ringer

[@Michigan_dad]

25:35 i believe what you are talking about is award winning commentary on the NBA and also slightly on our society. 💯 Great job Bill.

[@ChrisWhelton]

Vince Carter never hated Toronto, you and Ryan have mentioned this quite a few times now and it's completely false. VC was just fed up with the entire Raptors organization from their front office to incompetent medical staff. I don't blame him for wanting out of here at that time. The best player Glen Grunwald could pair him with was Antonio freakin' Davis. And our medical staff back them nearly ruined him by rushing him back a few times.

[@UncleJrueForTue]

Um Tracy Mcgrady was Vince's partner in 1999 alongside Antonio McDyess.

[@justingoldman3026]

@@UncleJrueForTue Antonio Davis. Antonio McDyess never played for the Raptors

[@UncleJrueForTue]

@@justingoldman3026 My bad, I'm slipping. It was Oakley and TMac and Bogues. Admittedly Oak and Mugsy were near the end of the careers but certainly not unproductive.

[@MrRufusRToyota]

Totally blew it by not including Rick Barry. The most disgruntled superstar. Left him off because he was so disgruntled so many times in so many directions it would take a whole show?

[@KarmaNeverLird]

what an unbelievable educational video. I am so impressed with all this info

[@henryallen4981]

Nuggets have a chance to have the next organic championship

[@TheTrumanator]

Not with their current defence

[@louishanson7584]

That ship sailed

[@antyoung24]

Organic championship? I guess that means more in your eyes. Stfu winning a chip isn't easy at all

[@stinestizzlethegreat6887]

Sike bih, bol

[@Broadstreetbeauty215]

Here from the future to let you know you were right

[@zackrymcallister6598]

I think the reason we are where we are today is because of the way players are remembered. It’s all about hardware. Nobody thinks of a player and remembers how loyal he was to a franchise or a city. As soon as players realised this, things changed. It make sense to seek acclimation from the whole world over multiple generations than to receive it from one city in one generation.

[@nc4310]

is there a correlation to unhappy nba superstars and bad ownders? Harden -> Fertita, durant -> okc owner (didn't want to spend), james -> (dan gilbert), ... Maybe the players just want to play in a nice city, with good ownership who want to spend money.

[@terencewinters2154]

Kareem also benefited from the lakers stockpiling 4s macadoo mo lucas rambis worthy green landsberger etc. (taking advantage of free agency picks as trade bait) who could protect his slight frame.

[@mrmacross]

One of the lowkey interesting parts about pro sports is resource management. Did this team draft well? Does it maneuver around the salary cap correctly? Did it win this trade? Etc. This player empowerment movement, first of all, should be called "superstar empowerment," since it's basically the 30 franchises succumbing to the whims of the league's top 10 or so stars, and then that 30 number gets whittled down to about five or six because the superstars largely don't care about the non-glamour franchises. But just as importantly, superstar empowerment means that one player can absolutely wreck years and years of planning and turn the NBA into one big HS clique. I know Kansas City no longer has an NBA franchise, but say for now they still were the home of the Kings. Can you imagine what kind of extreme events would be required for the would-be KC Kings to win the NBA Finals? Despite its terrible economics system, the MLB saw KC win it all five years ago, and in fact, were only stopped by Madison Bumgarner from winning it twice. And, of course, the Chiefs look like they'll be good for the next few years after winning the last Super Bowl. But the would-be Kings would be screwed until they hit the lotto jackpot, and then would be screwed once superstar empowerment pulled their guy away to LA, NY, etc.

[@austin78993]

Francis and Mobley for McGrady was actually a super fair trade. Steve Francis was a badass but that year was the year he fell off. I believe his first season in Orlando was actually pretty good.

[@Orlandomallguide]

You're right, it wasn't as lopsided as the other trades mentioned. Francis' first year in Orlando was good until the team traded Mobley for Doug Christie because the team needed more defense, but Francis didn't play the same without his best friend around.

[@ovathere93]

The King of keeping it in perspective. Well done.

[@RubenDari]

people can follow players careers much easier now because of the internet and nba streaming... back in the day you only had national games, and local ... many things have changed

[@County_da_kang]

1:43 That sentence could've been uttered almost verbatim since the 80s. We really have to come up with a new narrative. When free agency began, "what direction is the league going when "x superstar" can leave "y team". What about fans connection to their favorite players. When Shaq left the Magic: "what direction is the league heading when a player leaves a finals contending team for a mid tier playoff team. When LeBron... when Melo... when Dwight... when Durant... there's always some fresh outrage

[@HappyfaceSinner]

The warriors first championship was a pure title. All of those players were drafted.

[@gators9570]

Iguodala was traded but yes pretty pure

[@tubenachos]

Thanks to Kyrie getting injured in G1.

[@atkinsonej14]

So glad that Bill likened this situation to dating, because I was thinking the same thing. In this culture nowadays, people want the next best thing sooner and sooner. And they get bored very quickly and want to move on. It's all how society has changed in general now bleeding into sports decisions like this.

[@KaranManral]

What's also changed are the owners and the fans. Billionaire owners think differently and pricey season tickets are going to lose you relationships folks had with teams

[@WarrenFranceSportsNetwork]

The problem is that Owners can trade players whenever they want. They do what’s in their best interest always, so can’t be mad at players for choosing to do the same. It’s just players like Durant and now Harden have taken this “freedom” to an extreme.

[@phillipbell4394]

I actually blame the Celtics on this one. Pierce should have been a Celtics lifer, but they traded him in possibly the most one-sided deal of all time. It doesn't get any hate because it was a good trade, but players are realizing their team might not have their back when they get older. Fast forward to 2017 IT plays his heart out for the Cs, drops 29 ppg, gets his team to the first seed, has more points than anyone in the 4th, but gets injured. The Celtics drop him at a moments notice. Players around the league are scared. They see the trade and think, "If I'm loyal, the second I get injured, it's over, I'm gone. My team's not going to look out for me, so I have to." That's is a large part of the reason Davis is on the Lakers. It sucks for the fans caught in the middle (I know, I'm a Rockets Fan, and Westbrook was my favorite player on the team.), but loyalty is a two-way street. When teams aren't loyal, how fair is it to expect players to be? And that's not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely asking.

[@jesselund360]

The sourness Bill displays when referring to my Lakers makes my day lmao

[@jimjuly6074]

2017 Paul George trade to the Thunder a very weird trade in hindsight. The Pacers got 2 all stars and a nice foundation for their team of the future. The Thunder weren’t able to do anything with George, even though he was an mvp candidate. However, they were able to trade him and Westbrook, for a treasure trove.

[@LelanWellz]

This new presentation with graphics is great please do more!

[@CD-gk9ix]

Still haven't watched a full NBA game since Game 6 of the 98 Finals. The content in this video is exactly why. Please, GM's... take back the league.

[@davidmccrea6800]

Harden and Kyrie the spoiled children of the NBA and Adam Silver is the lenient parent who never knows when to say 'no'

[@yoyo41210]

Love this content. Love love love. Wish you and Jalen could still create. WE MISS GRANTLAND!

[@dhacker949]

It is hilarious that Bill threw the Celtics into the list of desirable teams. It is pretty obvious that the Top 6 are Lakers, Clippers, Heat, Warriors, Mavs, and whichever NYC team is competitive. Guys grow up in Chicago and Atlanta, so those places can recruit those guys. Boston has to be near the bottom of the list.

[@jamesfranken8676]

If the Celtics landed AD in a trade instead of the Lakers I wonder if Bill would still be doing this segment.

[@ElementzxFire]

Ad would have left. so ya. probably

[@antyoung24]

Yea he conveniently skipped the Ray Allen and Kg trade

[@jjgabbana]

how were the 2015 warriors not pure?

[@kb4231]

He probably forgot about them. That team gets forgotten about alot. The 73 win team gets talked about way more.

[@mikeewallace6188]

@Xalpha23 you're smoking

[@oceanhudson]

“Sell him” , not traded him for cash considerations . You gotta love this guy .

[@patrickthomas8890]

Funny how most of these involve Philly either losing or getting stars

[@briscoedaking.]

The issue is championships define everything. Legacy defines every star player. We rank everything, we debate everything, there are people out there that literally believe that Draymond is better than Barkley simply because he has more rings. Most of these players do not want the ridicule of being without a championship...why can’t we enjoy these player’s greatness

[@Spider-Complexion]

I’m part of this new generation but yet I also grew up in that sort of era that Bill is describing about. Especially what Pat Riley said. It connects to life in general. We don’t always win every year and we don’t always win every day. Guys like Dirk are bigger legends than some people may realize because of how loyal they were but ultimately, it is the leagues fault for letting it happen the way it has and I also think it’s just an example for how our society is changing

[@trex789123]

Clippers didn’t just swoop in. Lakers had Chris Paul taken away after a trade was agreed to. But Simmons gonna Simmons

[@901Wes]

I think most people were pro player until they saw star after star force their way out of $40,000,000 contracts (while still getting paid) , meanwhile 40,000,000 American people lose their jobs and health insurance . Likeeeee... is it really so bad, so hard, to live up to your fucking contract? Don’t like it? Don’t sign. Come on

[@coreyeatmon5101]

I'm glad bill made the distinction between real titles and circumstances

[@LiamborninDC]

How do you not count the first GSW championship as a "pure title"? I understand not counting the two with Durant, but that first one has to be thought as one.

[@Kodreanu23]

Fantastic video. Thank you!

[@tubenachos]

Never seen so many "Yes men" at 0:43. This is exactly why Giannis is my favorite of this era. He's willing to fight through and figure out if he can get a title with Bucks. I still think they are a superstar short but he's still young and willing to win with team that drafted him.

[@alecsanderhamilton9224]

My cuzin Corey Santiago in the 90s was a modern fan in the 90s before HIS TIME. He always rooted for players. I rooted for teams. Funny what LIFE shows YOU. GOD BLESS Corey Santiago!!!!

[@DensDaPens]

I know Rodman falls in the too much too soon era. But him asking out of San Antonio isnt too much, and it didnt come soon enough! He was already a proven, valuable commodity at that point

[@terencewinters2154]

So was oscar Robertson rick barry gus Williams etc juwan howard. Some of them improved the league . Increased the wage, got free agency, while the league has sometimes eroded fan loyalty by making players rotisserie dizzy trading them on whims that dont provide the stability upon which bonds and championships are built in team cohesion. In defense of wilt he wanted to stay in philly his hometown and was falsely promised a management stake which was reneged on . So theres plenty of blame to go around . It's easy to focus on the superstars who have some leverage but the league has to share the blame because they like trade buzz and encourage this small market instability that among the great franchises only the spurs have bucked.

[@Lavitz2011]

Props to Giannis signing that big contract, goes to show that he intends to grow, learn from mistakes and pull through.

[@dRevan64]

this clip aged incredibly well after giannis toughing it out with the bucks won a ring...and obviously the SECOND harden forced trade in as many years

[@josiahross2463]

The lakers didn’t think they had Chris Paul. They had him. Dan Gilbert and the owners just got scared of CP3 and Kobe together so they made the league back out of the deal

[@96bulls2k]

Loved this. Fascinating. This deserves a book of its own!

[@thomascrowniii1693]

What about when a player signs with a team, commits to them for four to five years, and gets traded? Why is that okay? What did loyalty to the Celtics do for I.T.? He played hurt for them in the playoffs, they rode him to the Conference Finals and then traded him. The lack of loyalty goes both ways.

[@UncleJrueForTue]

Bill:"Anthony Davis had to carry New Orleans..." Me"Y'all must have forgot what Uncle Jrue Due!"

[@guillermovazquez1084]

You right most of the times AD scored was off Assist from Jrue

[@Matthewlaing1395]

I really love listening to this on the podcast and it really made me think about the future of the nba

[@thetrib1]

i agree about the BS pod. gotta say though. this shows that this type of situation has been going on for decades. and it's not changing. as long as a player can be moved from a situation they're comfortable in( front office trading player) then the select few who want to get out and have enough pull will. until front offices chill on all the trading...then the players will chill too. it's a give and take, and the teams take much more than the players.

[@elliemyers6435]

Also, as a Sixers fan, it kills me that we have made three of the worst trades in the history of the NBA...First Wilt, then Moses Malone (which may be the worst trade ever) and then Charles Barkley. All so insanely brutal.

[@rossjn9885]

This is 1. A byproduct of “drafting players who don’t get to choose where they begin their careers so they have less inclination to be loyal. Who knew people like to choose where they work? 2. How many franchises are poorly ran and players are forced to be in a bad situation they never chose in the first place? 3. Teams are realizing they can’t take stars for granted, a la Atlanta Hawks realizing Trae wants to win now so they go all in. The best bet is drafting a player and knowing they have a potential window to maximize their potential. Wasting time means incentivizing players to leave bad situations.

[@johnhernandez9081]

How do you think the other 9 teams felt in the 60s Bill? This is the era for the lakers to surpass once and for all

[@bjensen]

Haha, the way Simmons cannot help himself from misrepresenting the Lakers Pau Gasol and Chris Paul situations is hilarious.

[@alvaro4867]

Chris Paul has made every team he has ended up in so much better. An old CP3 was so much more effective in Houston than Westbrook, he made OKC a competitive team and helped young players grow and it looks like the same is going on now in the Suns.

[@jimjuly6074]

You should note that the 2017 Chris Paul trade to the Rockets was a pretty mutually beneficial trade. The Rockets were a championship contender for 2 years and almost won a championship. The Clippers built a core and assets that directly led to a championship contending roster, that could still do things. I would say that the trade worked well for both teams and potentially the Clippers more since they could still win a ring, and the Rockets gave up more assets to get rid of Paul and bring in Westbrook.