James Hillman on Changing the Object of our Desire

[@leanmchungry4735]

Hillman's notion of homo aestheticus: "I think the human being is on the planet in order to appreciate it, that's all. You don't have to do anything with it, you have to appreciate it, and what you do with it should add to its beauty." What a radical vision!

[@НаташаНикулина-е2у]

What a true vision !

[@michaelsullivan2221]

revolutionary

[@davidpeterson7685]

Z

[@stephaniebartholomew7628]

❤

[@mohammadjavad6205]

this is the most ancient principle of first humanity. this planet is a novelty machine (as McKenna put it). even the etymology of its name lead you to art. (Earth/(german) Erde/(arabic) Arz/(Maltese semitic language) Art/ and so on. even its anagram (t-r-a) lead you to Terra. the celestial humanity called this planet "Art" or "Ars'". this planet is a "self-expression" herself. a celestial entity raging for "beauty".

[@mcxi]

“You can never get enough of what you don’t really want” !!

[@tikiweshe]

I love that! So perfectly simple and true. Why, how did we become so stupid.

[@gladysg7773]

@@tikiwesheytuyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyym mmm mll mmm ll

[@amiran]

​@@tikiwesheto become stupid would require to be wise first.

[@CircumbulatingSamsara]

"Under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. We have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. We have never seen a totally sane human being." Robert Anton Wilson

[@simonhardy1980]

Probably the best talk I’ve come across on you tube.

[@chrisfleming5869]

Always bracing to listen to. Combative, opinionated, deeply learned. He was - I think - utterly wrong about certain things (his knowledge of Christianity is sometimes comically naive, and his understanding of Plato betrays an incomprehension that can border on mind boggling), but his energy and brilliance are always fantastic to witness. Hugely enjoyable.

[@marshalmcdonald7476]

1:33-45 He's spot on suggestion that minerals are animated. I studied nano-scale chemistry and one of the 'problems' of nanoscale engineering is that atoms won't sit still--they're like sugared up little seven year old children, in other words atoms are VERY animate. I've read 4 of Hillman's books. The man is one of the most brilliant thinkers of this century.

[@mimiseton]

Hillman is such an engaging speaker - and soul. He has a large, warm intelligence - a lively heart - and speaks to my core as an artist and spiritual counselor. I don't see him as a "deconstructionist" or a "nihilist" or ANY 'ist'!!! I just hear someone speaking the simple truth about our human existence.. the feeling we have now of something being missing....that in fact, we are here to appreciate and love life - not to accumulate STUFR. In my experience, our soul comes alive when we respond to Beauty and create beauty...when we are in love with Life. Period. Why have an intellectual dialogue around this? It's simple, basic truth.

[@andrefrancoisdurasphilidor6742]

I am entirely of your opinion Mimi. Beauty is truth and truth beauty. That is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know

[@HenryCasillas]

💜

[@kirstinstrand6292]

Why dialogue? Maybe because so few get it 🤔

[@GThomas-qq6mp]

@@kirstinstrand6292 Or maybe so few dream

[@lackadais]

What a great great man. He rebelled against institutionalized Jungianism and later got side-tracked when he gave up on the fundamentality of the play of opposites. To his credit he did come around after the publication of the Red Book. A great great man, and a superbly clear thinker. HIs grasp of Greek mythology was second to none.

[@ninaz2120]

This man is absolutely brilliant. Listening to him soothes my soul.

[@senkachitra346]

Oh God, we need more of this today.

[@relientk2585]

"the backlash is that we are so inflated we've lost touch with reality".....a good one to remember

[@rainbowbgood]

now the manifestation is actual inflammation.. a huge cause of which is a great symbol of separating from nature - gmo foods, soon to be gmo humans. these gmo humans are having inflammed lymph nodes for weeks after because of fear of life, thinking that means its working.. its working at killing your connection to life.

[@whatevor]

15:10 What would make you want, not to destroy something? Would be your sense your appreciation of its beauty...

[@user-qx8op7pn1o]

Dr. Hillman is my golden Shadow!

[@bshmn5816]

I came here as a Jungian, drawn to the title "changeing the object of desire" thinking he was talking about lacanian psychoanalysis... boi was I wrong. But it was sweet, felt home again, listening to a Jungian

[@jeffwhite2511]

Most people don't 'heal' without a catastrophic event

[@MsWing-ij9nb]

Just found this interview- thanks to the folks who produced and documented this profound talk with Hillman before he passed away. His name and a book he co-authored were in Rob Brezney's Free Will Astrology weekly email horoscope for Cancerians I subscribe to. Seredipty indeed...I love his take on the imperative for white folks in the US to practice actual cultural humility and dismantling of white supremacy vs lip service to diversity and inclusion (which only further oppresses and widens inequality for the marginalized as well as deepen the dysfynctions, hatreds and divisions of our fractured society). I have to check out the talks he did with bell hooks if those are recorded and somewhere on youtube. Anyway, i have been gifted with discovering soul nourishing gems like this talk this week - thank you Universe!

[@lizafield9002]

This interview is incredible. Wish Congress understood these basics as they work for the one-eyed giants instead of wisdom, reality and life.

[@mudsh4rk]

"One should not hope for anything. Hope is invented by politicians to keep the electorate happy." -Pasolini

[@jimoonan]

and happiness is an illusion I enjoy conjuring even though it is fleeting (everything is fleeting)

[@nativeflowerpot7843]

this is making so much sense everytime i watch it.

[@rimhof5]

A brilliant thinker and lover of the cosmos! so humbled to be his student.

[@raffaellaelisapitteri6252]

Hi! You mean that you met him personally as he was your professor? I view him as my mentor because I read so many of his books and I found in them what I could never find elsewhere...

[@jazzhamster4168]

Great talk. The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[@barbara5051]

Wish all people really listened to this amazing man

[@Cmkrs34]

Just discovered him today. Im thoroughly enjoying his talks.

[@boris3866]

Am I high or are there 2 interviewers who are seriously in tune with one another

[@Cmkrs34]

I loved his comment on hope.

[@GThomas-qq6mp]

I realised when I was consuming the concepts of Jung is that they lay attention back on the natural. I constantly find my self in retrospect, failing to recognise the beauty. "Oh that back then, that was a door", telos is really interesting. For example I found myself in awe with "Nobody gets to the father, except through me". Hearing yesterday James his talk on fathering the needy child. In essence all is one, and it flowers in plurality. I first conjured the crumbles of Jung's (re)discovery, the patterns he lays out. Until I realised my mechanic dogma, i inflated. Anima Christi, ego-deflation. Through relating, the world reveals itself. The good, the bad, the beauty, the ugliness. Trough the son, you get to the father. The logos is, is the center of light. Both the criminals hung around the one who transcended. Jung brought me to Christ. I feel sorrow how hard he went into psychosis to bring attention to the current zeitgeist.

[@alexrfontes]

Awesome! Hillman's brilliant! Thanks very much for posting!

[@hawkarae]

Around minute 47 all the hair stood up on my body. This attitude will allow us to heal and build a bridge forward together as we have always been after all.

[@avenger822]

This man is a living ancient Greek!

[@nicolaeghita9155]

To the point! Exactly!

[@xXTumblinXx]

I don't think the Christ child represents ignorance, I think it represents maintaining your connection to awe and wonder and curiosity and humbleness and presence and being your true self, rather than the false sense of knowing everything, and therefore not tuning into anything

[@adamandsethdylantoo]

The important thing is that the Christ Child grew into the Christ Man. We can appreciate awe and wonder, but not always have to feel like we need it all the time. We can admit that we don't know EVERYTHING, but we can also admit that we do know SOMETHING. A life lived according to the Beatitudes isn't a life of pure subservience and "meekness" as it's commonly translated, but "restrained" or discipline, of speaking truth for righteousness sake even if it means death.

[@xXTumblinXx]

@@adamandsethdylantoo I agree, you need Christ Man/Savior like qualities to protect and defend the pure qualities and gifts of Spirit (Christ Child)

[@adrianafbarcellos]

what a brilliant human being! thank you.

[@AurielArizola]

"life lives upon death & by devouring appetite all things subsist on one another."-William Blake

[@dylano3133]

Never thought I’d hear James Hillman say “soul brother”. Haha

[@missve7]

Wow he's amazing!

[@nioshashakoori8505]

Brilliant mind 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻

[@rhondacase7194]

Beautiful & wise. Thank you.

[@robertmoffat5149]

I certainly don't knock Hillman for questioning the whole unspoken, yet entrenched American puritan ethos. Few western intellectuals are sharp or brave enough to transgress the conventional herd.

[@toblanation5655]

TRUEST WORDS SPOKEN. Fascinating only ONE OTHER PERSON has given you a thumbs UP for this!! I THINK we might have found the ACTUALLY PROBLEM in this ONE INSTANCE!!

[@artemis12061966]

A welcome change of dialogue....

[@kawaii_princess_castle]

Brilliant!!!

[@zbigniewbohdanowicz8897]

Great interview, thank you for sharing!

[@denydefendepose]

Hillman is the anti Jordan Petersen. More people need to hear this man and his ideas.

[@chriswalth]

Anti in what sense?

[@denydefendepose]

@@chriswalth He doesn't have the ideological or political toxicity of JP. He also actually cares about the environment.

[@MrVexedspirit]

In what sense he is contrary to Peterson?

[@denydefendepose]

@@MrVexedspirit Read my comment above yours.

[@amphymixis]

Peterson is a bigot who has completely misread Jung.

[@barbara5051]

So glad someone expained to me about the fascination with driving cars..i had a car and now do not...i look at the zombies driving cars now and ask where are they all going..thanks mr hillman for explaining that people feel like god behind the wheel cos u r in charge of your destiny..it is a farce and makes me feel sad that it is such a goal to have the next better car.....i understand people have to travel but too many cars ruining the planet

[@rodsimonson9175]

We are all fascinated with everything.

[@tikiweshe]

Humanity is doomed... Cars... Yeah there's the most basic proof. I Cycle and will use public transportation 40 complete years now. I've always been pressured and judged for it. I feel my personal power in my serenity. I look away more often than not that we are failing as a society. Also I grew up poor in a wealthy American city. I've worked hard struggled, mainly because of someone somewhere could not have enough. Our government & organized religion is designed to keep us struggling. Well the bow broke. I'm like King Fu that show I watched as a kid, just kept walking forward. Consuming one rice at a time. Aware of the garbage we produce, so much comfort, too much! I had fantasies of portable TV's back in the 70's and owned a PSP 30 & a tablet @ 40 years when the upgrades made that Samsung useless I died inside, for what it represented. Well now it's cell phones & every thing else. I can't. I'm still poor and better for it. I am rich in integrity and happier in my peace. But like I said, I have to look away, and focus on deprogramming myself still. Besides the planet will cycle and go on.

[@amphymixis]

Bell Hooks and Hillman had a conversation and it wasn’t recorded?

[@micahingle5091]

great video, thanks!

[@smartcatcollarproject5699]

Enjoying the beauty of the world 18:54 this is what I have done most of my life... by taste, and forced by inactivity. The problem is it doesn't pay your rent, not to speak about mortgage ! so you end not doing the tenth you could have done, for you and the world.

[@alfredorodriguez4128]

39:45 the myth of Hope, which I've never heard it said beware of hope

[@alfredorodriguez4128]

41:45 the meaning of the Automobile ( not a Car ) what is the meaning of using Uber/Lyft or riding your bike/walking instead?

[@raffaellaelisapitteri6252]

Walking is standing on your own legs and move one feet after another.. At your own peace and breath and look around.. What he does is a way to see everything in a Psychological way a symbolic way.. Certainly when you walk you feel just like a human being and not like God..

[@НаташаНикулина-е2у]

It's exactly what i think !!!

[@alexandras4651]

09:50 it’s like God’s word

[@Andre-wf8cb]

Think about it

[@Zach-ls1if]

Wow

[@ricodellacqua5632]

Do you know what happens to people who think this way and gain traction: ask Ghandi, JFK, MLK

[@jasonaus3551]

This bloke is interesting

[@opinionday0079]

for me sometimes he says something very thought provoking and then later he says something I find really dumb. ie the car stuff and the last 2 mins. also the title is what drew me in as it is a very interesting thing for a Jung guy to discuss but it never came up or I missed it.

[@davidwynjones1993]

Is there a difference between innocence and naively?

[@valentinainspires]

There is ! Innocence is being aware of the bad / evil in the world but still having faith and trust in it , being naive is not being aware at all ... like childlike is different from childish .

[@vartan1743]

is this a BTS interview for anther program? curious where this footage was used

[@leilaconners505]

Yes, it is from The 11th Hour, a documentary on the environment and climate destruction. It came out in 2007.

[@paulbolton2322]

Ironically pertannat , nature & disease & human interaction & destruction of nature . 2 Nd time I ve listened to this .

[@moyletl]

When was this recorded?

[@treemedia-n2k]

2006

[@tayub3]

America's obsession with sports is another example of our self-concept tied up with a childish need for "simplicity" or "innocence." There is often a complete denial of the social and natural world beyond our need to win. Our naive belief that we can safely ignore the big picture means we may unwittingly contribute to a mindless, ruthless denial of or loss of wellbeing for our fellow Americans, fellow humans, and the very ecosystems on which we depend for life. There have been many times when advancing ourselves or our team in a "healthy" competition have demonstrated how some of us will STOP AT NOTHING to win, to gain or maintain territory, power, wealth, or fame. So, our denial of the whole is simply not as healthy as we hope. There is a dark side THAT DOES NOT APPRECIATE the actual experience of actual loss of wellbeing contributing to our win. Our denial of the whole of reality will come back around and we'll "suddenly see" what we missed in our insistence on keeping our minds "simple and free." Best to wake up and stay woke to the whole of reality. ❤

[@robertjsmith]

my outrage, is the corrupt governments

[@DemianReis]

Eu quero

[@Andre-wf8cb]

On 27:49 okay then let's talk about it then

[@tigerhunter8878]

15:30 16:40 23:34

[@jimmieoakland3843]

His contention that somehow Christianity is somehow responsible for the ignorance of people seems to be undermined somehow by the fact that the oldest universities in the world were established by the Catholic church in the middle ages, arguably the most religious period in the West. And, did not the concepts of democracy, universal human rights, and the scientific method arise in the Cristian West? Ignoring that, go back to the original test. Christ admonished his disciples before sending them out to evangelize, "to be innocent as lambs and wise as serpents"? That hardly sounds like he was telling them to be chumps.He make some excellent points about modernity and the dumbing down of America, which has not decreased since it has become more secular, as one would expect if religion was the cause. And I totally agree that we have much to learn from other cultures which know the importance of beauty and cultivate it as something necessary to human thriving. But, I would say the rise of the image as the principle means of transmitting information (television) has much more to do with the cluelessness of people, coupled with the prevailing materialistic philosophy, than than religion.

[@patrickleahey4574]

simplistic

[@robertmoffat5149]

+Patrick Leahey Dude- are you on glue? What does 'simplistic' or 'no way' even have anything to do with? Are those just the latest words you learned in your coloring book today?

[@introspectah]

''Words learned in a colouring book'' ?

[@kamilarosinska5404]

"Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and SUBDUE it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." You don't find that ethos in every culture (or every religion for that matter). So there's a direct clue where the Western man's sense of entitlement comes from.

[@MrCRACKINSKULLZ]

I think the drive to do is an all human drive honestly.

[@kamilarosinska5404]

Some cultures just 'are'. So it's not all human.

[@theunbeliever7394]

The golden calf is an idol representing the Canaanite god El.

[@onlypearls4651]

The planet will outlive our species in orders of magnitude.

[@artjones2774]

"Not wanting to know the unpleasent" and the cult of innocence, I think it's a luxury of circumstance for the USA, through inexperience of war quite so personally, as European, Russian, Arab, and others. Part of this inexperience separates the North from the South. James Hillman understands story and myth. With it, he too is insulated, born into wealth, insulated from violence of war.

[@SlackKeyPaddy]

To die symbolically is psychological transformation needed to live alive of freedom, with the consciousness of They One True Self; instead of an automation, the walking dead' a 'zombie!

[@danilkopaskudnik3002]

he wrote a book once with some guy Ventura ... was the guy known senator?

[@danilkopaskudnik3002]

thats different ventura .... michael ventura ... i checked

[@danilkopaskudnik3002]

im captain of my own shit ... i like that

[@jesuschrist921]

No one will die thanks to me. You will exist eternal in Heaven where you will be reunited with the ultimate boredom that was once your life. You may sit with your family and friends whom will also be bored. You will have access to the internet too with broadband.

[@aldoushuxleysattention7153]

will there be g&t's?

[@fuckweedMegafayce]

First name Wang, second name Kerr

[@CorzIlla]

He who mocks, shall be mocked.

[@dustincaldwell2354]

❤

[@richardkasper5822]

We are inferior to all the animals because animals are perfect beings. Humans are special cause we have souls and spirits whereas animals just have spirits. You need to have a (soul)conscience to choose evil over good. Animals always do the right thing and never choose evil because they are the conscientiousness of God who made them perfect. God made Adam as perfect but then gave him free will. And his will was to be evil, greedy and filthy minded and be less than an animal.

[@robertjsmith]

we need to wake up

[@danilkopaskudnik3002]

dont do ... appreciate

[@patrickleahey4574]

It is very hard to hear the interviewer. an uou fix that?

[@leilaconners505]

no we did not consider that the interviewer would ever be heard in the film...

[@kristiancura2257]

Every evidence that nature and human life gave us to this day points to a God that is not good, nor mysterious. God is a cosmic abuser - and we are all His victims.About our lives being grounded on pain and boredom, and about how we live in a never ending search for ephemeral positive states, I give Schopenhauer the word:“We have already seen in nature-without-knowledge her inner being as a constant striving without aim and without rest, and this stands out much more distinctly when we consider the animal or man. Willing and striving are its whole essence, and can be fully compared to an unquenchable thirst. The basis of all willing, however, is need, lack, and hence pain, and by its very nature and origin it is therefore destined to pain. If, on the other hand, it lacks objects of willing, because it is at once deprived of them again by too easy a satisfaction, a fearful emptiness and boredom come over it; in other words, its being and its existence itself become an intolerable burden for it. Hence its life swings like a pendulum to and fro between pain and boredom, and these two are in fact its ultimate constituents. This has been expressed very quaintly by saying that, after man had placed all pains and torments in hell, there was nothing left for heaven but boredom.”

[@jcjs33]

Capitalism is more into competition than co-operation...Greed as Hillman says...Socialists countries aren't 'in despair'....Nordic democratic socialism has mind blowingly happy and creative people.

[@infooverdose9390]

except that the nordic socialist countries are not socialist.... Socialism is the most greedy economic system ever it can only be implemented by force it makes people feel as if they are entitled to something that is not theirs like your money the gov is not entitled to you money that you worked for that's greedy. sharing should be voluntary not mandatory.

[@TheRealValus]

“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.” ― Thomas Sowell

[@jonsegerros]

"happy" the most meaningless index measurement ever, especially in relationship to eronomic system. also disregarding the ridiculous notion of Sweden being socialist, as a swede i only ever hear of idealistic foreigners and prob mostly americans saying this

[@GG-op8rq]

Unfortunately James Hillman fell into the trap of romanticising other cultures - he is not an anthropologist or a sociologist - and denigrating the culture that has provided him with the opportunities he has enjoyed. We must be careful not to be misguided by experts in one field ie personal psychology when they speak as if they are experts in another. To draw an analogy you don’t get advice re your health from your airline pilot and you don’t fly with your doctor piloting the plane.

[@audreyconway9933]

That is ridiculous. What we need are more narratives informed by a variety of fields and perspectives. That is already happening, science art and sociology fields coming together to explore climate crisis. The notion of experts is not far from the idea of totalising narratives....ie fascism. We live within interconnected systems and knowledge is produced through those inter relations. As a Jungian he is necessarily interested in other cultures, religions, comparative mythology etc because the collective unconscious is informed by all these. He is highly esteemed the world over and was involved in the early men's movement in America. The most interesting people traverse diverse fields....Bruno Latour for example, Donna Harraway, Bayo Akomolafe, Mark Fisher ...your quasi accusation of cultural appropriation or misinterpretation is outdate and again nearer to an argument for totalising single vision. No representation is accurate because language simply does not have that power.

[@ginomazzei1076]

Wonderful Nxt to Alan watts And CG Jung Even Herman Hesse…. Throw in Terence McKenna and a batch…and some vestal virgins 🎩

[@robertjsmith]

He is more like a GURU

[@rupert8606]

I thought the same thing .. he's my guru! An encounter with truth... Wow

[@farhadsharifi1628]

y ppl dont listen to him? oh ye, cause there is no "profit" in it ...

[@joebutler3572]

11:10 They need to let him talk lmao

[@robertmoffat5149]

Robert Moore has a very valid criticism of Hillman. He calls him "a deconstructionist". I am a huge admirer of James' groundbreaking thought, but I seriously question if what lies beneath his re-imaging of psychotherapy is actually -nihilism.

[@bryce8262]

+Robert Moffat why nihilism? curious, but i don't see the connection

[@robertmoffat5149]

+Bryce Lawn (dysaniac) I feel like I am betraying one of my revered teachers. None the less, when I look back over his work, he doesn't seem to believe in anything. Nothingness can be a very potent starting point. My concern however lies with him calling himself primarily a clinician. For us ivory-tower thinkers, having faith in nothing, but whatever you pull out of your ass is all very well. When it comes to servicing patients and clients, this attitude I suggest, is possibly malignant.

[@marlainepretorius2684]

+Robert Moffat Each to his own, and yet - it is astonishing that you view this great man in this way - might it be more about your own perceptions/what you hear him say, vs. his real message? I think it is very clear what he believes in. His view regarding where we are at as a species is congruent with some of the other great teachers (and not therapists) of our time - the late Thomas Berry, Wendell Berry, Joanna Macy, David Abram, Bill Plotkin, etc.

[@robertmoffat5149]

+Marlaine Pretorius Be aware that I am making a fine distinction between Hillman as intellectual, and Hillman as psychotherapist. His thought is radical and heretical. I love it! Yet when you are in a room with a client, they do not need a deconstructionist. They need A Constructionist.

[@marlainepretorius2684]

+Robert Moffat Ok, thanks, i get that. I am not a psychotherapist, but a mere coach. I have never been to a psychotherapist, simply because i don't believe in the talking cure on its own. What i do know , is that if i ever had to see one, it would have to be someone like James Hillman - i would think that depending on where the client is at, the therapist should be able to step into the role of a constructionist or a deconstructionist. Very few of the fast number of psychologists i know have ever heard of ecophysiology nor somatics as a way to a more integrated self, never mind engaged with it - so no reference to the body, and to nature. Intellectual, therapist and human being, James Hillman was absolutely formidable.

[@nickshelbourne4426]

"Decartes created litter" very exaggerated - it does not explain why indigenous people around the world are some of the worst litterers. The real thing that created litter was our material advances which were not matched with cultural/spiritual advances. I have the utmost respect for Hillman, but he seems to be part of the group of people who have developed a reverse nationalism. Instead of the nation which is one is part of being sacred, and the other being profane, one's own nation is profane and the other is sacred. This is basic dualism. And real understanding of reality must necessarily be non-dualistic.

[@SP-ny1fk]

The ideology - ie. the way of thinking. It's cultural. Indigenous people are indigenous by name only. They live in the same diseased culture we live in. The colonial system.

[@metalmatthias]

You could argue that the development of materials that we waste and don't degrade was an outcome of Cartesian thinking. Hence why indigenous people have seldom if at all had the hubris to invent plastics etc Also his critique of capitalism still fits within a non-dualistic framework - unless of course you believe outrage, indignation and anger are somehow not sacred. They are a part of the process

[@cubrick2001]

And the child shall lead them... I feel it does not relate to naivety, over-simplicity and stupidity of the child image only.... rather, it refers the golden child, the inner child, the puer, the Taoist immortal fetus, the little god (christ)... the one we have to re-discover for it is in touch with the holy, with the otherness.

[@evillano]

I like Hillman but sometimes I feel like he was waging war against Christianity instead of helping revitalize the Christian symbol to overcome the nihilism of modernity. Certainly our pagan forefathers have much to teach us about how to deal with our inner daimonic forces but the Divine Logos must be at the top and at the center of our psychic pantheon, methinks.

[@terenceshannon4731]

Ummmm...why? The idea of Divine being abstracted (away off in heaven) from temporal is the beginning of our nihilism

[@evillano]

@@terenceshannon4731 Yes, agreed. But what you describe is not Christianity but modernity (the separation of spirit and matter, head and body, etc.). In traditional Christian cosmology God is at the top and at the center of all of Creation. Heaven and Earth are united, the Word of God descends and is incarnated into the material realm and ascends back to the higher realms. In (traditional) Christianity, matter is sanctified and everything is an image of the Divine Logos. In other cosmologies (Indian or Gnostic, for example) matter is considered lower and impure.

[@Second247]

@@evillano As a long time listener of Hillman, as well as reader of ancient philosophy, i agree with you. I try to find ease of mind thinking that often he is talking of Right-wing Christianity of US. Puritanical at it's roots. On other hand when he talks of alchemy of Middle-Age there one finds this similar issue which is fixation on purity, on whiteness, morality, that is built into Judaism and thus into Christianity. They don't tend to do well with ugly and rotten elements of life but seek perfection and good. Christianity at Medieval age had strong monastery culture which infact enforced strong divide between earth and heaven, between earthly and divine, even if it was against the Bible's principles. Often he accuses Christianity of being so literal and taking everything literally. Which i think is because of philosophy, which has baked itself into Christian culture thru heavy embhasis on ancient Greeks, mainly thru Aristotle. But then again idea of purity has always been part of Judaism, which lends itself into taking everything literally. So these things are linked. Jews of to day are still very much people of the Law. So i understand Hillman. Christianity's curse is it's demand on purity, leading into literal unimaginative worldview which has strong divide between desired and undesired. This is very visible in right-wing Christianity in the US which seems to be very dogmatic and unrelenting, but conservative Christians all in all seem to be such. And on the other hand people like Martin Luther were heavily invested in filthy side of life. His most divine experience of God was his so-called 'Cloaca experience' (cloaca meaning toilet in castletower). So as said by Luther, perhaps jokingly, that he understood nature of God when taking a dumb (much like Jung infact who saw a vision of God taking a big shit and smashing cathedral with it). And i think this is major thing on those Christian reformists all thru it's history: God is in everything, also in filth. But it tends to be forgotten as demand for purity takes hold once again. Hillman is outsider (jewish to be precise) and critic of mainstream. So he tends to focus on negative and speak of it in hyperbole. Which he admits. And which makes him painful to listen at times. Also at times he has said that rather than hunting our pagan roots we should study our Christian roots more carefully, so there is that. But Hillman has made sure that he is not a Christian and don't want to answer for Christians. That is up to us Christians. I don't know if my answer gave you anything. And i do hope that i would have change in afterlife to sit with Hillman and ask him of these things more precisely.

[@evillano]

@@Second247 Thank you, that was very insightful. I was listening to the Jung To Live By channel and the older guy, who is a Jungian analyst, mentioned that Hillman is not really considered to be part of the "Jungian canon" and that he does not recommend his books as an introduction to Jungian psychology.

[@Second247]

@@evillano Yeah. Hillman left plenty of Jungian terminology behind, such as Self and Ego, Great mother and such. For the reasons that he has not see image of any of them. But if your not too deeply in the Jungian canon you shouldn't worry too much about it. It's perhaps good idea to first get to grasp Jungian basics and then see if Hillman sticks. For me Hillman is the man because i like his way of sticking with the image, unlike many jungians figures who try to get "behind" the image and "killing" the image in process. Like forexample image of black snake is too easily deduced to being Great Mother and while doing so image of black snake is being killed in the process. Hillman isn't opposing Jung, he is opposing parts of Jungian school. To some Jungians he is still major Jungian figure, some don't like him at all. That is important to note, he is divisive figure as you have probably gathered ;)

[@lucjay9]

I like Hillman but he's very ignorant of economics. I don't think he travels far from America or Western Europe. "Capitalism" means the people get to own capital. If a central government owns all the capital, you get the widespread poverty and despair of socialist countries. Capitalism was suppose to go in hand with life, liberty & the fruits of labor (meaning no one is suppose to take those from you). However, capitalism has been hijacked by large corporations in America. Now corporations trash the environment your property is on, steal money from taxpayers, limit market choices and trash our food supply. So the real problem of modern economics is corporations buying off politicians to invade our life/health, liberty & fruits of our labor. Another problem is ignorance. Voters constantly vote for politicians who support corporate subsidies.

[@ZiplineShazam]

So, basically the real problem is humanity in general.

[@bout_da_clout]

how could capitalism ever not be hijacked by corporations?

[@noooreally]

The main difference between your ideology and the Marxist is that you think these corporations are some how external to capitalism some foreign agent corrupting the purity of capitalism... while the Marxist sees these corporations as internal to capitalism, a result of capitalism.

[@beatricejulia1075]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism 'Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.'

[@noooreally]

Yup and it's quite profitable for these private companies, to use a state to their advantage... "corporate capitalism" is more profitable to the capitalists.

[@LateNotes]

seems obvious.

[@BlessedFigTree]

Communists leading questions.

[@divisorplot]

thx manly palmer hall the ten avatars riderless white horse naught ours but thy kingdom come 'lords prayer' man grand symbol of the mysteries lingam philosophy l-fields desire . imago dio imago dei dichotomy mathematics phi i&e e *I pi =-1

[@cagney1568]

The cult of vulgarity and baseness suits better!

[@robertmoffat5149]

Huh? Care to elaborate?

[@thepolymathacademy4891]

False prophets cry of doom, what are the possibilities

[@rlrogues3268]

Not impressed.

[@deanhettig1920]

I respect a lot of what this guy says especially with regards to Carl Jung but his argument against capitalism and the idea that competition fosters greed and materialism is 100% WRONG! Of course capitalism has its flaws but can anyone name a perfect economic system that has ever been created??? The simple truth is there is no economic system that is more greedy and materialistic than communism or socialism... the fundamental principle of these economic systems are predicated on the idea that you must take from those who have more whether it’s material or economic wealth... for the supposed purpose of redistribution to those who do not... the primary objective of every communist country is the possession of material and economic resources... that is the definition of greed! Capitalism has to do with the VOLUNTARY exchange of goods and services... the distinction is trade through VOLUNTARY means... in a capitalist society, you have the highest rate of Charity work... people can barter or use currency if they choose... so it is the exact opposite of what you would define as greed or materialism For these academic people to miss that fundamental distinction between capitalism and literally every other economic systems created by man is intellectually dishonest, in my opinion...

[@arlandajws]

If there was charity the world would not be like it is right now. People want it all for them selves. Charity deffinetly will not solve the economic problems.

[@deanhettig1920]

@@arlandajws my main concern is can you name a better economic system than the one we currently have? Especially in the west... keep in mind the problems we have in the west is not the lack of material things or starvation but there’s too much and people are literally eating themselves to death

[@kamilarosinska5404]

His argument is very valid and to the point. It's a system validating greed and the argument "there's nothing better' is no argument really as it's a matter of core values, where you really come from. If you're all about having more and more - capitalism's your babe for sure. If there's something more valuable that the act of possessing - then it's not.

[@alisonarmstrong8421]

God help us -- this is a naive country...take me back to Europe!

[@David-oy6ck]

Is it just me or does a lot of this lack nuance?

[@kamilarosinska5404]

It's just you haha.

[@nicolaeghita9155]

JP is a joke compared to Dr. James Hillman!

[@christopherrobbins9985]

Hillman is talking through his hat here regarding Capitalism and colonialism. He may have had some wisdom at some point on his journey but he has taken a detour here. Capitalism has lifted more people out of abject poverty and starvation than any human organizing principal ever devised. His big feet are no longer on mother earth. 21st Century Westerners have indeed lost touch with our religious attitude to life and our unconscious writ large. This can be brought back. Capitalism with a feedback mechanism for helping the poor can still be achieved. And an attitude toward conserving mother nature can still exist. He seems to be regurgitating all sorts of other peoples thoughts. All very mushy. He is very far from Carl Gustav Jung. Very far. Sad.

[@bshmn5816]

My god another bootlicker. Do some critique of ideology m8.

[@infooverdose9390]

so I came to see this guy talk about Jung but instead I got a socialist anti-American propaganda video ....... why is this guy trying to push his political agenda Jesus Christ can't he just stick the depth psychology.

[@z1ssou]

Your sensitivity about those issues is very much related to what he's talking about. Anti-american... listening without taking offense is a valuable skill. Especially ideas you find to be wrong or unappealing

[@infooverdose9390]

@@z1ssou yes I understand that but when I come to learn about Jung I come to learn about jung not economics I usually separate the two . I am interested in opposing ideas but I find it annoying to be mislead

[@z1ssou]

@@infooverdose9390 I see what you're saying but I think they're all related. He's just talking about integrating Jung's thoughts fully into our life, culture and way of being, so it's hard to separate out something like economics when they have become the central building block of our modern society. It literally drives all of our production, consumption, a great deal of our beliefs and ideas regarding what is valued and defining our own self worth. Always glad to hear there are still people willing to listen to this stuff, even if it wasn't what you were looking for. I also found the title misleading, but meh

[@bshmn5816]

@UCQtrJI_Jxxlrblf_13i6QoQ then go and read Jungs books. James is a man of his own, not jungs little pet. He has the right to express his own opinion and you have the right to fuck off.

[@helenasaldanha293]

Eu quero

[@fabiocardias6771]

Eu quero