James Valliant’s Bogus Theory of a Roman Invention of Christianity | Dr. Carrier & Dr. Adair

‪@TheAtheistInquisition‬
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In this livestream, Dr. Richard Carrier returns to History Valley podcast to decimate pseudo-historians James Valliant and Warren Fahy's book "Creating Christ: How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity." Dr. Aaron Adair will also be joining to focus on his research on where one of the coins in Creating Christ actually originated.
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[@History-Valley]

I spoke to Markus Vinzent and he is not citing James Valliant and Warren Fahy’s garbage book.

[@arthurmair8901]

stfu u truly truly unpleasant man. why are you so mean to a guy who helped u build the channel

[@History-Valley]

@@arthurmair8901 He didn't help me build shit, lol. The idiotic Price fans said the same thing about Price and I was able to keep going. Keep on simping for Valliant

[@arthurmair8901]

@@History-Valley yah he did. i and several others joined your channel due to his lucid and intelligent commentaries. but now im definitely unsubscribing due to you..

[@History-Valley]

@@arthurmair8901 I don't care, I don't need you.

[@arthurmair8901]

@@History-Valley bro: get a grip, youre clearly losing it.

[@dougrobinson6683]

Thank you for having Dr. Carrier and Aaron Adair on.

[@CheddarBayBaby]

Gloves are off now. Valiant used to be a staple of these shows… no more I guess

[@seoigh]

He's also, rather oddly, become a Trump guy

[@CheddarBayBaby]

@@seoigh well, I think the Israel / Palestine conflict may have pushed him further that way in a more public way. A few months ago I heard him talk about how the civilized world needs to stop Hamas, which is fine if that’s how you see it, but definitely more of a right wing talking point than a liberal one. At that point I realized he was gonna become more political

[@seoigh]

​@@CheddarBayBaby I was actually referring to his support for the Supreme Court's limited immunity gift to Trump. During that conversation he came across as extremly pro-Trump -- and this was some time ago.

[@annascott3542]

@@seoigh Appalling.

[@LittleImpaler]

Did Jacob get rid of him?

[@jeffh2166]

Nice one guys. I remember the recent video with Valliant with Dr Carrier on Josephus and his behaviour was very telling

[@slicktrickyes]

Carrier needs a Carrier

[@ObjectiveEthics]

Have I missed something that has placed a wedge between Jacob B and James V? I have always been under the impression that both of these gentlemen were not only friends but were co-researchers into Paul conspiracy theories being a Herodian. I have seen many videos on HV that feature mr Valliant as the primary guest. I am curious why Jacob seems to be determined to "debunk" James book which he previously seemed to promote on this channel. I'm not saying Jacob is right or wrong. I don't have enough knowledge about the situation to make any judgment but I am legitimately curious as to why the change of heart. Furthermore Dr Carrier is one of my favorite sources for critical scholarship of the Bible and Christian belief systems and claims. As such I have noticed that Jacob has been quite dismissive of Dr Carrier on numerous occasions on this channel so what has caused this change of heart? I'm so confused about these events. Finally, when did Richard and James have a discussion/debate and what wss the topic specifically? I will say in closing that this was a fascinating if not confusing video definitely worth watching.

[@annascott3542]

Richard and Valiant had a debate a year or two ago on this channel over the authenticity of the Josephus passages that reference Jesus; the testimonium. Valiant’s performance was…shall we say, progressively unhinged & agitated as the debate wore on. I don’t know when or why this latest rift occurred btwn former BFF’s James & Jacob, I just know I called it, in the comment section on a video from Jacob’s last tirade against Dr. Price, I believe my words were, “Valiant better watch his back.”

[@josephbarnabas3568]

Pro roman NT gospels and letters of Paul as deflections of anti Roman messianic ethos remains stronger than any other theory anyone can imagine.

[@Akio-fy7ep]

We do not have unaltered versions of any such documents. All have been subject to revision by Church personnel, and we can clearly identify only a fraction of such revisions. Any anti-Roman content would be expected to be scrubbed out. Omissions are even harder to identify than alterations or insertions.

[@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256]

Agreed. The differences between Paul and James is spelled out clearly by Valliant and Eisenman takes a very similar view. The tensions between anti-Roman, Roman conciliatory, and those mediating between the two provides a most plausible reading of the evidence.

[@humbleopulence]

​​@@Akio-fy7epbut certainly the fact that all you can find is Christian omissions and comebacks to the counter cultural messianism is, if not proof then at least highly indicative of the fact that the counter cultural messianism came before the church that combatted them, and that these state sanctioned churches got the upper hand because of their connections and the ease with which their message spread (no circumcision needed to join, for example). The fact that such intense omission, obfuscation and persecution of anyone against the church occurred throughout the ages following this period is proof enough - this thing started as out as anti Rome and was swallowed by it after the Jewish wars.... It's par for the course. I dunno why this is so controversial... This is how humans work. I mean, does anyone remember what happened to "occupy wall street"? The same thing in microcosm. Ground roots fight against the established order infiltrated by the established order in order to defang it and turn it ridiculous in the public eye (this is where the current iteration of PC culture became rampant)

[@tavuzzipust7887]

Love it when these self-acclaimed experts start debunking each other and dismiss each other as crackpots.

[@Chris2Flock]

It’s all for views because most people love drama. Pretty pathetic!

[@busterbiloxi3833]

Berman is an odd duck.

[@skepticalCoder]

This is great. Carrier is the GOAT, my fave historian, and Aaron Adair....love listening to his analysis of things. Super smart and detailed as could be. As for that back and forth between Dr. Carrier and James Valliant (who is such a hack xtian non-historian historian apologist), Dr. Carrier,, please publish that on your blog! That's pure gold. Would love to see more videos of you 3 on together. Felt super engaged the entire time.

[@JohnnyMason-p7u]

The goat part discredits him thank you

[@zilchnilton]

But have you seen the Gnostic Informants take down of Carrier which is similar to this video?

[@skepticalCoder]

@@zilchnilton​​⁠Yeah, I saw the entire exchange. Except you got the direction wrong. What you have framed here as a takedown, if you watch the videos that follow, where Dr. Carrier defends his position, it was shown really conclusively that Neal has very little idea what he’s talking about. He’s not qualified with any relevant studies or languages. The guy is a mess. I unsubscribed to his channel because of that actually. In his posts, Neal was arguing the same way that antivax types argue against qualified immunologists. The antivax trolls continue to argue with unearned confidence and keep thinking they have a point when they don’t. The thing that showed most clearly with Neal/GI is that he is not widely enough read and doesn’t understand original sources enough to be able to synthesize a coherent academic position on this. He doesn’t have the critical or content-related skills to realize even how out of his depth he is. To over simplify the case, he’s a poster child for the Dunning-Kruger effect. At some point you have to either do the study and get up to speed with the experts or realize that you’re likely wrong.

[@johnnehrich9601]

@@skepticalCoder Just a few days ago, I almost fell out of my seat as Derek had Neal on his mythvision show where they both agreed in what seems to be a major shift (if I am reading this right). They both still think Jesus was historical but now think theories about him being a myth should be listened to.

[@skepticalCoder]

@@johnnehrich9601 Yeah, I just caught the first minute of that but didn't have time to watch it. Will check it out later. I love MythVision, actually. Derek is incredibly open minded about listening to all positions and he's a great host. I've become interested enough in counter apologetics that I'm thinking of doing a few months next year in Cyprus to start learning Greek, and all of that started by me running across MV a few years ago. I've never been religious (undergrad degree is in genetics...so...yeah...I could never believe in that stuff lol), so I am not coming at this with the same understanding as guys like Derek, who have the experience of being fully addicted to the Kool-Aid. But hearing the stories of what people go through is very motivating to learn more about all this. I'm just a rank amateur, so I can't make any claims, but I lean fully mythicist. Partially because all other Mystery Religions, Moses, and other mythical figures have the exact same trajectory in terms of Euhemerization so it's unlikely that there's any more truth to the Jesus myth. And partially due to having read a few books by Carrier (OTHOJ, in particular). Dr. Carrier is that guy who always brings a machine gun to a knife fight...the "Carrier scalpel"...and always 1. sources everything he is talking about and 2. vets and discusses the relative strength of sources and 3. never just makes stuff up and openly says when he doesn't know stuff. As a science guy, his evidence, the rigor of his approach in data analysis, statistical probability, and just following the evidence rather than bringing personal bias into things is compelling.

[@slicktrickyes]

The whole argument is non-cents.

[@Chris-op7yt]

maybe they were not the originators of some initial ideas that were a mix of judaism and other things but, the roman empire did make christianity (political fiction that it is) a reality for the roman empire and it's why it's still with us. i'm sure that the political fiction of christianity was massively shaped by the roman empire elites over centuries. religions are not some hermit's good ideas that got scribed and copied and kept pure.

[@SKILLIUSCAESAR]

Exactly. The general idea, rather than a radical conspiracy, actually seems incredibly intuitive, once introduced.

[@pascalbercker7487]

It seems to me a bit ironic that insofar as the historicity of Jesus is concerned, Valiant and Carrier have more in common (who have a mythicist point of view) than with Jacob Berman who is (AFAIK) a confirmed historicist and indeed has made fun of Richard Carrier in the recent past for "Jesus From Outer Space" point of view. Have I misunderstood something here? Having read the book my sense is that Valiant is merely mistaken, but certainly not fraudulent in any sense that I could detect. There's a difference between careless - or even shoddy scholarship - and fraudulent scholarship. If I've understood correctly, the "new" evidence Valiant present turns out to be "fabricated" but not fabricated by them (but Carrier gives that impression?). The "new" evidence was in fact just drawing of Roman coins that James Valiant incorrectly thought were genuine coins. That's just bad scholarship or bad research. I agree that the book has a lot of insinuations and vague suggestions. But that's par for the course given the state of the evidence. Just dating the gospels themselves is typical given in terms of intervals of several decades. I still found the book an interesting read because it's worth knowing why something like that turns out to be wrong.

[@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256]

Agreed and a very measured assessment.

[@georgeflowers3730]

The problem in cases like this book is that it gives Christian apologist arguments to discredit All Scholars and their peer-reviewed work on early Christianity. Valliant's theory should be able to present evidence of their research no matter what, not just speculations. If you're proud of your work, you wouldn't respond to questions with "read the book," but more so with critical pieces of evidence and ideas from your book. I read the book, and it was interesting, but it doesn't compare to the works of Scholars in the field who do this for a living.

[@theemptycross1234]

Valiant is also a Jesus' historicist. Jacob values the opinion of a competent scholar to criticize the non-peer reviewed, pop market, work of an amateur. But people, mistakenly, think Valiant is a mythicist, which gives mythicism a even worse reputation (this is why Carrier is interested in debunking bad mythicist-like conspiracy theories)

[@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256]

@@georgeflowers3730 "peer-review" is of dubious merit. Over on Gnostic Informant, they've been going after Dan "peer reviewed" McClellan, who as a specialist is the field of "ancient religion" has really sketchy grasp of what strikes me as rudimentary. But for a few cases, most scholarship is no better than the ad hoc stuff used to drive home a pre-existing point from preachers. Pop scholars like Ehrman and Carrier are really some of the most egregious.

[@WBFbySteefen]

Decimating psudo-historian James Valliant and Warren Fahy after years ago I told Derek Lambert and Luther Williams I was not impressed with James Valliant's book. I even posed a question to Bart Ehrman about it and Bart implied Valliant's line of reasoning does not hold up. Luther and I are out of communication because he supported Derek and Valliant instead of me. And, that is part of the reason why Derek and I are not Facebook friends. Valliant is part of the reason why Derek didn't promote me having a necessary conversation with Joseph Atwill. Derek and Luther made so much about the Valliant Fahy book, I bought it. Then Derek had Atwill promoting Valliant's effort. I was writing my own book, so I checked it out. I through it in the garbage. It was such a low quality book. There was NOTHING I could use in my study of the historical accuracy of the bible. So this is where I start before watching this video. Steve Campbell author of Historical Accuracy currently working on the second edition

[@call_me-jo]

Has Jacob and valiant broken up ?? It's been a while since I joined the channel

[@vikingdemonpr]

Yeah they seem to have fallen out and now Jacob is on a crusade to debunk his hypothesis. I think there's more into it than "academic disagreement".

[@Akio-fy7ep]

@@vikingdemonpr Jacob is probably embarrassed at having been taken in, and feels a need to clearly dissociate from them.

[@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256]

@@Akio-fy7ep taken in? either the thesis is plausible or not.

[@TobiasC-mg4zk]

The general idea that the NT corpus is pro-Roman, anti-Semitic political propaganda with little in the way of historical reliability is pretty much a no brainer at this point. There are several ways that critical scholars and amateur researchers approach this. I just don’t get the vindictiveness of these Bible nerds acting like mean girls. I’m unsubscribed. Also find Carrier extremely smug and unnecessarily abrasive.

[@Akio-fy7ep]

@@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256 Obvs it aint.

[@scottpierce9195]

I don't understand the vitriol Jacob is showing to James at the moment? Is he such a fair weather friend that he backstabs him as soon as he thinks it is profitable to do so? I used to like the way Jacob and James interacted when they were a frequent podcast duo. Now Jacob just looks like some petty woman scorned on the spectrum throwing a tantrum. Unsubscribed.

[@GWFHegel-ms7gz]

It's a crackpot conspiracy. It ought to be exposed.

[@WarrenFahyAuthor]

He's an unbelievable back-stabber.

[@DontBeCringe]

@@WarrenFahyAuthor he's jewish, if you didn't see this coming, I don't know what to tell you..

[@GWFHegel-ms7gz]

@@WarrenFahyAuthor It is a bogus theory. How is that "back stabbing"? Even if it is backstabbing (which it isn't), I, for one, prefer loyalty to the truth rather than falsehood. I see you feel differently.

[@Akio-fy7ep]

Jacob catches on eventually. I hope he will come to abandon (or already has?) pre-Paul gospels, and various Pauls being the same guy.

[@johnnehrich9601]

Two of my favorite mythocists, Dr. Carrier and Dr. Adair. Oh, happy days! I'm sure you will be hearing it directly from John Gleason, but a few days ago, he had on Matthew Britt and Jaaron Wingo to discuss their recent book, Christ Before Jesus. Britt and Wingo used stylometric analysis to look at material in the NT. However, unlike others who have used this, they tried splitting the material into separate chapters. (They also did tests to see if these chapters were big enough samples for the program to give meaningful results - answer, apparently yes.) They also concluded from this that Jesus was NOT a historical figure, but dated Paul and the gospels to the mid-second century. What I found most interesting is that they concluded that of the pauline letters, only four might have been written by one author, the one who claimed to be Paul. Even then, two of the four were only partially written by "Paul." (They also concluded Josephus clearly did NOT compose any of the gospels.) So much has gone into to trying to argue about James, the "brother" of Jesus, and it isn't proof of a historical Jesus. I would think that if there wasn't an actual single guy writing under the name of Paul. AND the letters date so much later, there would be no way whoever he was could have met any such James at the time of Jesus. I'd be interested to hear what you think of their use of stylometrics and also their conclusions (which come from this plus other clues in the NT).

[@Nightowl2548]

I remember seeing this book cover before proudly plastered on some giant board behind the author when he was part of various interviews. I remember thinking that it was one of the UGLIEST book covers I've ever seen. With those scribbles on it, reminds me of when that science ballon crashed in Roswell and the crackpots were showing all these "alien hieroglyphics" they claim they thought they'd seen on what in their imagination was a flying saucer.

[@meatloafhead]

I think the most simple answer is that ROME would NEVER have willingly forsaken their own gods! Some adoption or appreciation of other gods sure…. But a complete forced erasure NO WAY! ROME had complete control ALREADY so why destroy your own power via some obscure new faith from the very people they didn’t like and destroyed several times over???? The only people that could believe Rome created Christ are people that have never studied pagan Rome… The religion ruined ROME forever,… now it’s just a very wealthy church in Italy

[@SKILLIUSCAESAR]

But… Rome did forsake them when they became Christians lol And if they had “complete power” why were Vespasian & Titus and majority of legions stuck in Judea for years laying siege to a continuously rebellious population? Complete control means ur provinces are subjugated and unable to rebel.

[@meatloafhead]

@@SKILLIUSCAESAR it was not their “will” it was a hostile takeover from within, an inside job… like imagine trump is president, appoints Nick fuentez as head priest and his job is to use the military to go burn down and destroy everything not Christian then forcing us to accept Jesus Or die! Lol Christians today fantasize about stuff like that daily they would totally do it..

[@seoigh]

43:00 I don't want to defend Valliant -- trust me, I really don't. But isn't that part of the book saying that contemporary coins are similar to the Catholic clip art symbol -- and not that the clip art IS a coin. I grant they don't cite it as clip art -- but I thought the point was that old coins had images that overlap Catholic iconography to this day.

[@TobiasC-mg4zk]

It’s a bit over the top harping on about the image not being a coin or having citations to the image as though that utterly dismantles the idea that early Pauline Christianity was a pro Roman/Herodian mystery cult that had separated itself from the Jewish messianic Jesus movement. There is abundant amateur writing as well as good scholarly writing on this. If Valiant and the other fellow got a few wires crossed it’s entirely forgivable. I like the discussions with James a lot despite my vehement dislike for his weird political beliefs.

[@seoigh]

@@TobiasC-mg4zk I think there is a WHOLE lot of bathwater to sort through to find the baby in Valliant -- but he makes 2 excellent points that most Christian scholars can't/don't explain: 1) Paul is selling a nakedly pro-Roman ideology to the victims of Roman hegemony. 2) Paul is selling a deeply unkosher set of rituals to Jews. I don't suspect purely a purely Roman origin to Christianity -- but something is up with Paul. Something very weird.

[@SKILLIUSCAESAR]

@@seoigh💯

[@johnhadden2569]

I just started listening, but I hope this addresses Hellenistic Herodians, Josephus, and pro-Roman perspectives against apocalyptic messianic zealots.

[@busterbiloxi3833]

He was an interior decorator.

[@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256]

Don't hold your breath.

[@andreafox7267]

39:34 “Jesus, Fuck! Read it. Then get back to me. Otherwise, fuck off!” I think Carrier pushed all his buttons 😂. I can see this guy with fuses in his brain going phut! 😂

[@arthurmair8901]

Why is Berman going after James Valliant now? What's going on? Maybe his book isn't up to scholarly standards, but okay, still it doesn't explain the vindictiveness in these videos...Berman needs to take a deep breath, calm down, and get some perspective...He's coming off as truly unpleasant..

[@SKILLIUSCAESAR]

I really wish I understood it too. I love the shows they did together, that’s what got me into this channel.

[@Darisiabgal7573]

Again this is part of world view perspectives so I will disagree with carrier on this. Not withstanding the issues on James Valliant, which I have voiced my opinion on many times, we need to dive into the problem. If yeshu_ of Nazara was a real man, which I think is more than likely, then what is his message. Yeshu_ was Jewish, and other than the mystical and prophetic stuff, he was an apocalyptic messianic Jew; roughly between the Pharisees and the Essences. Since Richard feels good with speculating, so will I. Margaret Barker points out that the tendrils of Canaanite polytheism reach deep within Judaism, in fact it’s not likely that most Jews of the period were monotheist, with holdovers from ‘El and Asherah belief notable within even modern Judaism. Within this context of the first century the Galilee is notable as a region where the Maccabees 150 years prior forced people to give up their beliefs and writings and accept the Torah, sometimes these were forced conversions. As we are aware when people are forced to convert the old beliefs go underground. There is a dominance of the father imagery in the gospels, and one could argue that this is to harmonize Zeus “the sky father” but also it’s essentially “El’s” role in Canaanite religion, and this imagery carriers forward in the Torah. The critical issue of the Q source is the Jewish Family, father to be torn from son, mother from daughter. This conflict is, in the mind of Iesou of Nazara, being put by changes of scribes and high priest in Jerusalem, we assume he is talking about the Sadducees and their benefactors the Herodians. These political changes they are rebelling against they see as driving the Jews away from god, the father, and thus the treason the messiah had not come. Again for this all to work they need a grass roots belief/practice rebelling that overturns the powers of the scribes/priest. The Sadducees are not messianic, they don’t want the messiah to come so these are an obstruction. This in the mind of the rebels they need to be cut off from the fold. How much of this is being curated by history of the Jewish revolt is not clear, Jesus (in the Matthew and Luke) was speaking against the Herodians, scribes and Sadducees and Viola! They are out of power and our source is both Matthew and Luke after the war, so this is the bugaboo, was the common source written before or after the war.

[@Mercury-Wells]

Good comment but needs editing

[@Marabarra-s3p]

​@@Mercury-Wellsneeds less waffling. Wordsalad

[@Mercury-Wells]

@@Marabarra-s3p this salad is full of waffles 😄

[@SKILLIUSCAESAR]

Lol at Carrier complaining about “long, childish, insulting rant post” tactics 😂 That really happened…

[@scotttirf]

Great show. Well researched and entertaining.

[@anthonycostine5067]

Excellent discussion.

[@ArmchairPhilosopher360]

Given Richard Carrier's shady past related to numerous sexual harassment allegations, it's CRAZY that Jacob uses Carrier to dump all over James Valliant. I don't understand why Carrier gets a pass from The Atheist Inquisition. On top of that, are we supposed to memory hole all the diss videos Jacob has done on Carrier?

When the Greeks conquered Kemet which they called Egypt. They created a hybrid parental deity in order to combine Egyptian mythology with Greek mythology. So they combined the Egyptian God Thoth with the Greek God Hermes. They called him Hermes Trismegistus III. Who was known as… “The Thrice Great.” He was famous for triumphing over the season of death. Which is what the number 3 almost always symbolizes in World Mythology. Isn't this what the Flavian Dynasty did after conquering the Jews? Didn't they create a new hybrid form of Greco-Roman Judaism? To integrate Jewish mythology with Greco-Roman mythology? Calling him… “Jesus The Christ.” Who is also famous for triumphing over the season of death. As represented by… “The Trinity.” Isn't this a better explanation for the origins of Christianity rather than Harry Houdini magic? 💙

[@dansaber4427]

It would make a great movie

[@slicktrickyes]

What would make a great movie?

[@dansaber4427]

@@slicktrickyes creating Christ

[@TheDanEdwards]

Maybe Dan Brown has done it already.

[@SKILLIUSCAESAR]

It really would

[@seoigh]

That the mythological phoenix made its nest with frankincense and myrrh is always an interesting blind spot for Christian scholarship

[@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256]

The "conspiracy"? Is it not the thesis of numerous scholars that religions are syncretic (a term that seems to have lost favour of late) in nature and that the anchor and shepherd are symbols associated with Apollo that later became fused with Christian iconography. Was it not also mentioned that the fish or dolphin (see the Aethiopic version) was the most common early Christian symbol, the cross not emerging to prominence till the 4th-ce? None of this line of reasoning seems particularly "conspiratorial," a rather condescendingly inappropriate use of the term. Valliant's whole thesis centers around syncretism.

[@GWFHegel-ms7gz]

There's a difference between saying that (which is itself questionable) and saying that the Chrisrian symbol is Flavian and then to use that as evidence that the latter invented the former. Do you not see why what you've said, and the Roman provenance theory are very different claims?

[@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256]

@@GWFHegel-ms7gz Agreed. The coin argument is plausible, provided that it's true. Since no evidence of other coins from the purported series is provided and no citation is provided, we're left concluding that the guest's statement is plausible.

[@TobiasC-mg4zk]

Syncretism gets a bum rap. EVERYTHING is syncretic to some degree. Judaism heavily borrowed ideas from Zoroastrian religion during the Achaemenid period. Zoroastrian religion was reformed several times over the centuries and seems to have evolved from a branch of early Vedic tradition. Name a religious tradition that is absolutely pure in origin and I’ll point out how it has borrowed or taken influence from another tradition.

[@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256]

@@TobiasC-mg4zk Granted. There's a good discussion findings at Elephantine Island over on Gnostic Informant. That said, we're looking at Valliant's argument about the formation of the Church.

Doesn't the number 3 in world mythology always represent the same thing? Triumph over the season of death? Based on the sacred promise Mother Nature demonstrates to all who incarnate in her world. Winter is her season of death which lasts 3 months. And is always, always, always followed by the season of life. Known as Spring. Which is also 3 months long. And is the season of rebirth and reconstitution and resurrection. Also every month the moon dies for 3 days and then is reborn anew as a sacred new moon. This is why dying and rising gods are entombed for 3 days before they resurrect. This is why Hermes Trismegistus was known as... "The Thrice Great." As he was famous for triumping over the season of death. Just like Jesus The Christ. This is what the 3 Mithraic wise men represent. And this is all the Christian Trinity actually symbolizes. It isn't about the individual personas but rather the sacred underlying promise of the number 3. Which is what most parental deity religions are selling. Entrance into Studio 54 for only the best people.💙

[@LittleImpaler]

The fish trinity symbol is Odin's eye.

[@LittleImpaler]

Glad to have Dr. Carrier back. 😊

[@johnnehrich9601]

Anywhere I can hear him speak. Ditto for Dr. Adair.

[@antonius3745]

Wow I love this debunking. It is in all aspects based on real genuine evidence.

[@TobiasC-mg4zk]

The whole thing about the New Testament is that there isn’t any evidence. There’s a tiny bit of corroborating information in Josephus that is debatable. A bit of acts is plausibly historical but overall it’s a work of historical fan fiction. We’re left with a mythological rewrite.

[@StorytimeJesus]

The Son of Man is Titus or Vespasian- but not by Roman Provenance. It is consistent with prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah, who named Cyrus the Christ and Nebuchadnezzar the servant of YHWH. Meanwhile Jesus son of Jehozadak is crowned twice over and yet is subservient to the king of kings the Persian emperor. This is age old Judean culture to praise a foreign leader as chosen by God. Which is why its so weird the implication that Josephus is suggesting Vespasian fulfilled Judean prophecy as simply Josephus doing lip service to those in power. If it is lip service, it was it certainly mimicked some of the most respected literature of Judean culture.

[@History-Valley]

Sorry but that’s a conspiracy theory, the Son of Man is not Titus or Vespasian.

[@StorytimeJesus]

@@History-Valley I just finished watching James Tabor telling me the Son of Man is NOT Jesus. Also, its not a conspiracy theory because there is no conspiracy. Mark is simply following the tradition of Isaiah and Jeremiah. Not Nehemiah, tho....

[@TheDanEdwards]

​@@StorytimeJesus "James Tabor"

[@History-Valley]

@@StorytimeJesus It's one thing to believe Jesus isn't the Son of Man but another to say he's the Roman Emperor, common man.

[@jansteinvonsquidmeirsteen2256]

@@History-Valley "conspiracy theory" is not a satisfactory analysis, rather a baseless value-statement .

[@spiritsplice]

What is this book by vincent that carrier mentioned?

[@Akio-fy7ep]

Vinzent.

[@DanielGray-f2d]

2000 plus years later SSDD😂

[@unicyclist97]

Interesting show, good to see the contrast in methodologies and to hear from multiple experts.

[@geraldmeehan8942]

T hank you Dr Adair, Dr Carrier and the learned Jacob. The exorcism of James Valiant is complete

[@WarrenFahyAuthor]

Ha!

[@humbleopulence]

Valliant was Berman's friend for years. I haven't heard a single thing from him about this mess and only heard from Jacob, who is going scorched earth as he usually does, doing his best to not appear tainted by his previous associations, which he is only seemingly doing because he changed his mind on some stances and beliefs and doesn't have the mental and moral fortitude to stand by his friends despite any professional disagreements they may have. At least that's what it looks like to me. Valliant and Fahey may very well be wrong, but was deleting an entire aspect of your career with Valliant really the way to go, Jacob? Do you sleep at night knowing your relationships are just a disagreement away from crumbling? It's just not the way friendships are supposed to be. They're supposed to transcend this pettiness.

[@geraldmeehan8942]

@@humbleopulence I always enjoyed James V on HV. I thought he was a co host for the longest time. I don't know what caused this descent into disagreement. Hopefully they mend things up

[@Kytheus_Errant_2106]

This. Was. Great. Thanks Jacob. A lot of people are buying into this guy and this really does destroy his entire theory, which is completely toxic. Keep up the good work brother!

[@WarrenFahyAuthor]

He's wrong about everything he claimed about the book, Creating Christ. I doubt he read it past his complete misreading of the first evidence presented.

[@Akio-fy7ep]

@@WarrenFahyAuthor The time to stop wasting your life is always right now.

[@History-Valley]

@@WarrenFahyAuthor By the way Warren, Markus Vinzent will not be citing your garbage book. I spoke to him, so you can go take your garbage somewhere else.

[@rtee4086]

I have four of Richard Carrier's book, and I've watched several video of him in debates, I've also purchased the James Valliant & Warren Fahy book, And the Joseph Atwill's book, I also have David Fitzgerald's books, Carrier believes or states that originally Jesus was the name of a celestial Angelic extra-terrestrial being, who was tortured and crucified by Satan And his demons, buried in a tomb above the clouds, and resurrected in outer space, James Valliant and Warren Fahy says that the Romans created Christianity And Jesus, And that Jesus in the Gospels depicts the destruction of Jerusalem and its famous temple, which we know did in fact occur within Jesus's prophecy's timespan, The verbal description when he said, Not one stone here will be left on another, referring to the Temple, The Gospels mirrors that event given by Historian Flavius Josephus to the actual events 40 years later as the Roman General and future Emperor Titus fulfilled Jesus's prophecy. In his book, Joseph Atwill says, That at the exact time when the follower of Jesus were organising themselves into a religion that urged its members to '' turn the other cheek '' and to give to Caesar what is Caesar's, '' Another Judean Sect was waging a religious war against the Romans, This sect, The Sicarii, also believed in the coming of a Messiah, but not one who advocated peace, They sought a Messiah who would lead them military. these are historical facts, and should not be disregarded, None of these men were there, They may have studied the scriptures and other ancient languages and writings, but at the end of the day, They're all coming up with different hypothesis, any if which can be wrong or right, James Valliant's Theory is no more Bogus than Carrier's or anyone else's, None of you were there. you're all just presenting a theory. I tend to lean more to the Englishman Kenneth Humphreys, Jesus never existed.

[@annascott3542]

Kenneth Humphreys is the best.

[@TobiasC-mg4zk]

I agree and disagree. Jesus existed as did his brothers and family. The historical Jesus got in the way of the Christian myth. By the time the gospels were written this pro-Roman, anti-Semitic Christian movement began to flourish in the Roman Empire.The real, historical Jesus had to be rubbed out for it to work.

[@humbleopulence]

​​@@TobiasC-mg4zkbut the gospels being written after Paul show a historical Jesus written into the record and thats what Catholic "evidence" usually ends up being. All references to Jesus in the 1st century are later proven to be interpolated. Any references to a Jesus from this period can be reliably shown to be referring to a different person called Jesus. Its only later that this being becomes a man who lived in history. So if this is where allt he evidence takes you, how can it be that a man existed prior to the myth? All dying and rising saviour Gods are shown to start mythical and turned historical, and not the other way around. All of them also share major similarities to each other and to Jesus, who is one of the last in this long line of Gods. So do tell, how is it possible that Jesus is the one historical exception to the mythical rule? Ill tell you ... Its not possible. Cause he isn't. He likely started out mythical, just like his predecessors

[@busterbiloxi3833]

Valliant is valiant.

[@derumweger1590]

Has anyone debated Valliant about this topic?

[@janejones3170]

I wished you all would do more debunking of these conspiracy theorists .

[@Balance3rd]

Anyone notice the slow sweat stain growth

[@dartveyda2542]

Compared to mythvision

[@humblethinker8493]

What does, “compared to mythvision” mean?

[@dartveyda2542]

Its an addition something i said before

[@user-wm4lx5kw1y]

Is Carrier drinking wine during the session?

[@Nightowl2548]

He drinks what looks like wine in a lot of interviews I've seen him in so I'd guess he quite likes the sauce. Carrier sort of reminds me of Reason magazine, might be off from the truth, but I like his style. Whether there was a historical Jesus or not, the whole claims of miracles, sappy idealistic speeches, coming back from the dead, are obviously bunk and should be laughed at and Carrier has that witty, Bill Maher kind of way of smirking at it. When I first saw Carrier the thing I liked about his style is that I laughed during his presentation.

Wasn't Paul secretly working for the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't all of the original Roman Catholic Saints' members of the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't all of the original symbols used by the earliest Christians identical to those of the Flavian Dynasty? And isn’t one of the earliest iconographic symbols for Christianity, located in a catacomb, under the city of Rome, which was owned by a Flavian Princess? Weren't all of the original Jesus cult texts produced under the oversight of the Flavian Dynasty? Didn't the Flavian Dynasty posses the only remaining copy of the Hebrew Tanakh other than the Greek Septuagint translation? Isn't there Flavian typology in the Gospels? Weren't the canonical texts all back dated like the historical fiction of Gone With The Wind? Wasn't Emperor Vespasian known as the Jewish Messiah? Wasn’t Pope Clement of Rome a Flavian? Wasn't Josephus a temple whore for the Flavian Dynasty? Weren't the Flavian’s, as well as Paul, descended from King Herod? There was no separation of Church and State in the Roman Empire. And Christianity is clearly a Greco-Roman hybrid form of Judaism created by the Flavian Dynasty. As an attempt to adapt, pacify, and integrate the rebellious and defiant Jews into the rest of the Greco-Roman Empire. Just like the Greeks created Hermes Trismegistus to integrate Egyptian mythology with Greek mythology.Then finally Neo-Flavian Constantine chose the Flavian family religion to be the official religion of the entire Roman Empire. In order to consolidate power in his fractured Empire. And then Eusebius edited and rewrote the history of the previous 3OO years. Destroying all contradictory evidence. It isn't history it is all simply Greco-Roman mythopoetic literature. Today it is known as Historical Fiction. “What profit hath not this fable of Christ brought us.” Pope Leo X 💙

[@AmazingJane137]

“Randroid” 😂

[@dartveyda2542]

A shame of uuuuu

[@History-Valley]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

[@dartveyda2542]

U die laughing???? Why?

[@dartveyda2542]

Yeah sure u have to pick up pennies but Coome oon Not like thaaat

[@dartveyda2542]

Thats why u r sooo loow

[@janejones3170]

New moon Sabbath keeper’s do a lot of conspiracy theories

[@dartveyda2542]

Disgusting

[@History-Valley]

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

[@dartveyda2542]

Whats so funny?

[@humbleopulence]

​@@History-Valleywow, what a petty man you are ... Good to know who to trust in this world, and who not to

[@kencratchley8697]

I have this book and Atwill’s Caesar’s Messiah.Atwill’s claims are irrefutable, I’d like to see Carrier debate Atwill.

[@rtee4086]

I have four of Richard Carrier's book, and I've watched several video of him in debates, I've also purchased the James Valliant & Warren Fahy book, And the Joseph Atwill's book, I also have David Fitzgerald's books, Carrier believes or states that originally Jesus was the name of a celestial Angelic extra-terrestrial being, who was tortured and crucified by Satan And his demons, buried in a tomb above the clouds, and resurrected in outer space, James Valliant and Warren Fahy says that the Romans created Christianity And Jesus, And that Jesus in the Gospels depicts the destruction of Jerusalem and its famous temple, which we know did in fact occur within Jesus's prophecy's timespan, The verbal description when he said, Not one stone here will be left on another, referring to the Temple, The Gospels mirrors that event given by Historian Flavius Josephus to the actual events 40 years later as the Roman General and future Emperor Titus fulfilled Jesus's prophecy. In his book, Joseph Atwill says, That at the exact time when the follower of Jesus were organising themselves into a religion that urged its members to '' turn the other cheek '' and to give to Caesar what is Caesar's, '' Another Judean Sect was waging a religious war against the Romans, This sect, The Sicarii, also believed in the coming of a Messiah, but not one who advocated peace, They sought a Messiah who would lead them military. these are historical facts, and should not be disregarded, None of these men were there, They may have studied the scriptures and other ancient languages and writings, but at the end of the day, They're all coming up with different hypothesis, any if which can be wrong or right, James Valliant's Theory is no more Bogus than Carrier's or anyone else's, None of you were there. you're all just presenting a theory. I tend to lean more to the Englishman Kenneth Humphreys, Jesus never existed.

[@slicktrickyes]

I heard you the first time!