Jane Austen's Mansfield Park: Fan vs Hater [CC]

[@peggymccright1358]

I love Mansfield park too! I think it’s a very ’real world’ story. Not every life is filled with drama and intrigue. My husband’s family loves drama and they invent it whenever they can. They think I’m boring but really I’m just trying to understand other people and why they do what they do, instead of assuming they are wrong. Oh my, sorry, take away my soap box.

[@thegrimmreader3649]

Thank you Claudia! This was so much fun! I think we both made good points, and I now better understand why you don’t like it.

[@sylvain123]

I love Fanny too! She's inspiring to me. One of my all time favourite characters. Nice to see someone else agrees.

[@alldbooks9165]

How fun! Team baffling! Excellent defense, Cathy!

[@zameendarabhinay1506]

Wow! So rare to discover some book-talk between two serious book admirers. Great work, keep it up.

[@beatrixscudeler]

Wow I have so many thoughts! I'm writing a paper on Jane Austen's attitude towards the theatre right now, so Mansfield Park has been on my mind a lot...I rather like Fanny Price, but that's because I see more change in her than many people give her credit for. People think she stays the same, but I don't think that's true! When she refuses to marry Henry Crawford, she is vocal and self-possessed in a way that would have been unimaginable at the beginning of the novel. I also think Mary Crawford gets less and less interesting the more times you read MP, she starts to sound less witty and more insincere the more you reread...

[@jmarie9997]

I wonder if MP would have been published at all if the heroine had been single at the end? I've heard Louisa May Alcott wanted Jo to be a spinster but the publisher refused? (Probably just a rumor)

[@thegrimmreader3649]

excellent point!

[@maryh4650]

No, it's true, it wouldn't have been published if Jo hadn't married, which explains A LOT. There are a couple of biographies on Louisa M. Alcott, which are fascinating.

[@maryh4650]

I think there is a documentary about her on youtube too

[@nmelodic6391]

I appreciated this discussion! I still really dislike Mansfield Park, but this has made me think about it in a more charitable light. Also, just because the novel shows the working class doesn't mean it isn't a classist, negative depiction. I do like Wuthering Heights, and I think part of why is that I grew up with some rather extreme human behaviour in my family.

[@shellysolomonart]

I don't think Fanny is dull at all nor the novel, Mary and Henry are your basic sparkly no substance extroverts who you expect to get everything their own way but they're foiled by their own foolishness. She's more interesting and has a ton more depth, and you gradually get to see her inner world more and more. She's not as big of a pushover as she seems, she's not perfect she just don't rush about making crazy decisions and saying everything off the top of her head. Its funny you say you dislike Edmund when he's literally the male version of Emma, they've got the same weaknesses and foils. PnP is probably her best novel but Mansfield park is a close second imho.

[@angelaluz405]

I agree with both of you on Mansfield Park, which is why it falls in the middle for me. I am, however, firmly against you, when it comes to the brilliant Emily Bronte and Wuthering Heights.

[@mailill]

This was a great conversation!

[@GinaStanyerBooks]

How fun to see you two together! I am not a fan of Mansfield Park, but I’ve only read it once. I want to reread. Although I also agree with everything that Cathy says, I would love to love the book but I just don’t.

[@rose_and_thorns]

Okay, now what we need is for each of you to give each other a list of a few favorites and most loathed books, then you each read a few and see if you agree or not. Discuss them over Zoom and make this a series :P Also, gotta say I'm mostly with Claudia on this one-Mansfield Park is second to last for me of Austen's novels. I also found it overall somewhat dull and by the time I finished it, it felt like I'd been reading it for a month when it was only about a week.

[@theresas709]

I agree with her about Mansfield Park and with you about Wuthering Heights.

[@Blue_Grass_Girl]

Hahahaha, the reason you dislike Mansfield Park, is exactly why I love it so much. With Lizzy Bennet I always feel I have to be on my toes otherwise I miss something brilliant. With Fanny I can just dally along. Totally agree on Edmund though. Fanny is too good for him, which at least he acknowledges.

[@jimsbooksreadingandstuff]

Mansfield Park is one of two Jane Austen novels I have yet to read.... I read one each year for Jane Austen July...this year I read Persuasion.... should I chose Mansfield Park or Sense and Sensibility next July?

[@apollonia6656]

Her first novel: Sense and Sensibility. Leave MP last because you might find time to read better novels inbetween !

[@mkmason7727]

I’ve reread Mansfield Park so many times trying to figure out what it’s about. Fanny deserved better than Edmund, and Austen must have known that. The book is devoid of happy, equal marriages to compare, and rather than reveling in the triumph of Fanny and Edmund’s marriage at the end, it’s relegated to almost an aside! Fanny is constitutionally fragile, jealous, and lacks agency. She only shows her resilience through her moral agency. Yet the plot unfolds in such a way that Fanny can’t exert her only agency to stop the play happening nor put an end to Henry Crawford’s suit. Those end despite her, and the reader is kept wondering if she will be able to do anything to effect those events until the plot sweeps those possibilities away. Yet the plot isn’t what drives the interest in the book at all; this novel of all of Austen’s perhaps relies least on coincidence and melodrama. As you pointed out, what happened with Maria and Henry is scandalous! But it’s not really a feature, not dwelt on. What is this book???

[@LedgerAndLace]

LOVED this, Claudia! Every time I start to read Mansfield Park, I think, "I'd rather read Pride & Prejudice again." And then I do. It's the perfect novel. I just can't get into Mansfield Park, but eventually maybe I will. I know I'll get shade for this, but you couldn't pay me to read Wuthering Heights again or watch any of the movies. I LOATH that book!

[@bethmw28]

Same re Wuthering Heights! I suffered through it 1.5 times and no more 😂 love finding WH haters 😏

[@LedgerAndLace]

@@bethmw28 Yay! A friend! 🙂

[@sarahmwalsh]

What an interesting discussion! Mansfield Park really does have a very different feel than the rest of Austen's novels. I had never heard the theory that it's the first Victorian novel, but that makes a lot of sense. Early on in the video you mention that Mansfield Park is a Cinderella story - and I realized that there are kind of two parallel Cinderella stories, but only Fanny's really has a happy ending. Her mother, Frances, is the only one of the three Ward sisters who marries beneath her station, and she ends up a drudge to her family with more children than she can care for; and then Fanny goes to live with the Bertrams and *they* treat her as a glorified servant.

[@kevinrussell-jp6om]

No, Fanny's family is NOT working class, they are simply poor because her father was invalided out of the navy. In class and rank, he was no different than a young Midshipman Wentworth. Her relatives treated her poorly because she was poor. Fanny is admirable not likable. Emma was a catch because she was handsome and rich. She didn't marry her cousin , father, or brother, but a mature family friend. Emma is a much more enjoyable book. Mansfield Park is good talent, writing ability, and clever work on an inferior story. Fanny is no Cinderella because she is mousy and plain. Henry and Mary are not much better than the Thorpes. Henry is a training-wheel hell-rake when we meet him. I rank MP the least appealing of the Austens, although it addresses some interesting things. It is quite cynical.

[@beatrixscudeler]

Also Cathie, feel free to cross the border from Ohio into Indiana and come discuss MP with me!

[@ashappyasiget140]

I'm just amazed how different Austin heroines are. Everyone has someone they can identify with. This July I'm excited to reread Mansfield park though it's my least favorite Austin book.

[@ButOneThingIsNeedful]

Such a fun and also profitable video!

[@OnlyIfForAPage]

Perfect timing, I have just finished Mansfield Park a few days ago and I have some mixed feelings. The cousin thing aside... 😅 Fanny being holier than the pope got a bit annoying and instead of a solid romance as in her other books, we only got the lusting of other characters and Fanny's pining :- D Mary Crawford really was an interesting character, ideally she wouldn't be condemned as totally morally corrupt but oh well :- ) It feels that in some books her characters turn very black and white, almost bordering on caricatures or just representing one character feature (like this one and Sense and Sensibility) whereas in other books they just seem more 3D. But although the book didn't give me what I wanted and it's probably my least favorite Austen, I still quite enjoyed it.

[@ellie698]

I think it's my third favourite. P&P Persuasion Mansfield Park Northanger Abbey S&S Emma How heartless do you have to be to not empathise with Fanny after reading the first two chapters of MP. This poor little girl who loves her big brother, is needed by her younger siblings and is completely uprooted from everyone and everything she knows.... Her first experience of MP is the horrible, quite frankly, evil, Mrs Norris and she is a complete fish out of water. That poor little girl. I much prefer her as a character to Edmund!!! He's a total clot. I wish she could have met a better husband.

[@theaelizabet]

This was fabulous!

[@jjac31415]

As much as I enjoy Jane Austin, her novels aren't perfect. The problem I have with them is that the almost never see any normal interactions between the potential love interests. There may be a good reason for Fanny to love Edmund, but Jane Austin never shows it to us. Sense and Sensibility suffers from this as well. Edward doesn't have a line of dialog until his visit to Barton Cottage. We don't see them forming their attachment. In Emma, we are shown that Mr. Knightly scolds her on the three or four occasions in 14 months, but we never see normal interactions during that time when we are told they are friends and meet at Hartfield daily. Even in Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth may have received 'a sort of intimacy with his ways' during her time at Rosings, but we don't see much of it. I would enjoy some good fanfiction that filled in those gaps.

[@jjac31415]

Correction: In Emma, we do see some interactions at the end of the novel.

[@zubaerchaudhari8267]

Hi 👋 👋

[@apollonia6656]

I have read all of Jane Austen's novels many times, but Mansfield Park was the most boring book of hers and only read it twice. Are we to feel sorry for Fanny ? Sorry, no. The characters are so dull, the plot is virtually non-existent, nothing but moaning and regrets. Hater from GB. Kind regards.