Jared Leto's Joker: A Hesitant Defense (feat. Thought Slime)

[@LackingSaint]

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[@jlkjlkjkljklj9162]

I'll say this, you made me think about this character in another way. I now think that this character is genius... but for different reasons. The way you're trying to describe him, it implies this Joker is a subversion of expectations. That doesn't work, however, because subverting expectations requires actually wanting to do that. No, this Joker is genius because he was born from a genuine attempt to create something cool and edgy. Jared Leto, the writers, the producers, the director, they all thought they NAILED it. And, in a way, they did. Because what they think is cool and edgy is actually fucking pathetic. This Joker isn't a mirror to Batman's soul. This Joker is the mirror to fanboys souls. The fanboys who idolize Joker, who share memes going "There's nothing more dangerous than a good guy snapping", the ones who go "Why so serious?", who go "I want to watch the world burn". People hate this Joker because he's a representation of what those manchildren actually look like to the rest of the world.

[@arcturus3622]

I like your arguement cause is very sound like the old joker was ment to crack jokes ment to be silly while being a criminal. That did change when they gave him a reason to be this was. my personal favorite joker is from the batman animated series because he caused chaos for the thrill of the chase from batman and enjoyed it as well as causing chaos. I didnt really care about his backstory but I like how he made sob story as a form of manipulation. In my opinion being a relatable villain doesn't automatically make it a good villain. I'd prefer if the joker was crazy for the sake of being crazy. SORRY if this is to long I'm just a joker fan. Also who uses crazy for the sake of being crazy for a bad joker that's just like saying the riddler is using to much riddles like HES THE FUCKING RIDDLER that's what hes gonna do let him riddle his way to heavan.

[@lonestarr1843]

The way I see it is very simple. Imagine the JOKER doing what he does but by himself and eventually building a large gathering of others like him or share the same ideas. Imagine the JOKER as a cult leader like Charles Manson. Then add in the modern day gangster bling tip of shit and there we go. This JOKER acts the way he does because he can. He is already feared by everyone.

[@coyoteblue4027]

Bruh... Gee-YEr-mo... Del Torro. Edit: also fantastic take. I watched batman vs superman in theaters, and I was just so utterly put off by almost every aspect of it that I pretty much swore of the whole DC cinematic universe. But mybe I will give it a chance after all, since I've got all this free time..

[@josephde-haan1074]

The main problem with Leto's and Pheonix's Jokers' are they are not the Joker, or are the Joker by name and a few character foibles only. They might have been interesting if they didn't try to label themselves as the Joker. The Joker at his best is a force of nature. Jack Nicholson's joker started out as a psychotic gangster and then just went psycho. Jared Leto is just a gangster. The Joker film is pretty mundane with amazing performances, set and sound design and cinematography and quite a poor character study of a victim of the society in that world. I'm no fan of continuity. If it is good on it's own merit, it's good. The thing with art and iconic representations is often it is difficult to articulate what makes the something, that something. It could be in the abstract but if it is done right you can still say that is a good representation. When something purports to represent something even without the ability to articulate why, you can see that it doesn't. Especially when you give it time and it still doesn't fit in to that something it wants to be.

[@BlueberryBlanket]

I think the main problem with Leto Joker is that there's dissonance between his characterization and the film's framing of it. To use your example, the 60s Joker works because he's silly and the film acknowledges he's silly. In Suicide Squad, Joker is obnoxious and try-hard, but the film presents him as a serious threat. That gap is the problem. I would argue it would have worked better in the new Harley movie: she could call attention to how overacted and cringe the Joker is as another reason to dump him. But played straight this character just doesn't work.

[@andrewward7265]

That's the thing, though. He's cringy and obnoxious while also being genuinely dangerous. Just like a lot of real-world dangerous people.

[@Kuudere-Kun]

@@scapegoatmiller9110 Plenty of people like that have attacked friends and follows in real life however, it's how cults get started.

[@idkidc7513]

@@scapegoatmiller9110 seems like you should look at the video (and maybe the source materials of it) again, because in more of one occasion it has been presented like that in his different incarnations. What people should have realized long time ago is that if you try so hard in finding logic and realism in comic characters then you're just wasting time.

[@mrbanks456]

In other words, Joker needs a straight man.

[@Mooseplatoon]

I mean, Suicide Squad is not a great film and virtually nothing in it works as originally intended, but I think this is more a problem with media language than anything else. We are so accustomed to dangerous people being portrayed a certain way that we don't know how to take anything else seriously. This has consequences in real life, where cringy edgelords are just as (if not more so) likely to hurt people as someone who's immediately intimidating. Many abusers are disenfranchised, narcissistic dweebs who no one took seriously until it was too late, and you don't exactly see a lot of cackling villains or action movie badasses organizing harassment campaigns, putting children in camps or shooting up schools and places of worship.

[@Pyraticalpunk]

So each iteration of The Joker is changed based on the writing, tone, and storyline with a few unifying traits but are essentially different characters? So what you're saying is...The Joker...is 👏🏻 an idea?

[@fabiangamboa1714]

Holy $#!% he's literally a meme.

[@Odinsday]

EsaiTheRevolution The endgame of the society meme

[@Pyraticalpunk]

@@xcmledder3420 *lays in a circle of dismembered hands* I'm an idea

[@CesarLopez-nz4po]

The little clapping emoji 😭

[@Whatzupwitu19]

A state of mind 🙆‍♂️

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

Much like the rest of the Suicide Squad film, I am genuinely curious to see what a version of Jared Leto’s Joker would look like if it was actually pulled off. Because yeah, I am really charmed by the idea of a Joker that’s trying WAAAAAAAAY too hard. I imagine a montage of Batman and the Joker preparing all their gear. There can be shots of Batman sharpening his batarangs, or choosing which tools to put in his utility belt opposing shots of the Joker sitting in a chair, surrounded by guns and ammo, and painstakingly taking the time to paint the letter ‘J’ onto each individual bullet.

[@ahmedamine24]

That sounds like Lego Joker mixed with Harley Joker.

[@cloroker2058]

I cannot stop thinking about this idea. Please, please write a whole story around this concept; just a barebones outline will do. This has the potential to be the best batman/joker story of all time (or at least my favorite)

[@kyledaulton2578]

@@ahmedamine24 Harley Joker? What’s Harley Joker from? exactly?

[@dougthedonkey1805]

@@kyledaulton2578I imagine they mean the Harley tv show

[@WitchKat]

Leto's Joker is totally relatable- if you're a woman who's ever had some 'I'm not like other guys, I'm ~DAMAGED~' type guy try to impress his way into dating you. Honestly half the problem is just that people were expecting this super cool hyper competent badass who would steal the show. But this wasn't HIS show to steal- it was Harley's. The person you are identifying with isn't Joker, its HARLEY, and you spend the movie having the same feelings you would if your friend's abusive ex kept trying to but in and ruin her show. You just wish the pathetic wanna be cool asshole would go away, or at least shut up and sit his obnoxious ass down.

[@will.koalia]

^^this

[@TaKKun1123]

🔥🔥

[@jamiepeterson1981]

Totally aree it was all about Harley, but that just made it worse. I found it hard to believe Harley would be so into someone so lame.

[@mirrorzone5224]

@@jamiepeterson1981 I don't know about that. She is Harley Quin after all.

[@GothMusicLatinAmerica]

yes

[@OlPalJoe]

That Rat story was delightful

[@bessh2501]

Sloppy Joe Margot Robbie also used to be super afraid of rats- it’s why Jared Leto sent it to her in the first place. But she got over her fear because she felt a moral drive to make sure the rat was well taken care of. It’s actually kind of cute!

[@jessicadavis622]

It really was. I love rats, and I'm so glad he ended up with Guillermo! What a happy ending to a weird story.

[@OlPalJoe]

@@bessh2501 Man that makes me in equal parts hate Leto and love Robbie a lot more

[@OlPalJoe]

@@jessicadavis622 Right?! I'd like to see that movie lol

[@blankmantm2501]

I thought you meant the story of the rat and bottle of thinner

[@spiderside3892]

"why are you talking about a character from a bad movie that only appears for 7 minutes" its a quarantine jack im not questioning anyones discussion topics

[@jessoliver2955]

Because the rest of us don’t think it was a bad movie. I loved it. And l like Leto’s Joker above all previous Jokers. Although Nickelson’s Joker was quite entertaining

[@MagicalMysteryViewer]

That was surprisingly convincing. I still think, like you acknowledged a few times, that the fact that it is clear that Leto's joker was intended to be cool somewhat undermines the argument but you've at least swayed me that Leto's exact same portrayal would have actually worked under better direction.

[@YourFaceisPretty]

It's like what Lindsay Ellis talked about with Megan Fox's character in Transformers 1. Framing dissonance. I think it's one of the biggest problems Suicide Squad has. It's so busy trying to make everyone look cool, it muddies what little story it has. Amanda Waller suffers from this as a character. She comes off as incompetent, because she's framed heroically and allowed to be a perspective character. But framed differently, she could have been the villain of the film. Her motives could have been seen as inscrutable and suspicious, instead of just... bizarre and writer-driven. Sorry, I didn't mean to write so much. I've got cabin fever and I love train-wreck movies. xD

[@jaschabull2365]

Is it basically the whole, "animated sequence which fails on a land backdrop, but would actually look great on an ice backdrop" thing?

[@JordanSullivanadventures]

pulled off in what way?

[@dudeist_priest]

When you put it like that, maybe I just hate the Joker.

[@bisexualmajima]

Honestly as a big comic reader he's admittedly a pretty shit character lol, it's mostly fans of the Nolan movies and normies who don't fundamentally understand that he's meant to be kind of one-dimensional, cringy, evil doer that like him and I'll forever be miserable over the fact that he'll always be a huge comic mainstay in Batman arcs because on top of being sort of uninteresting as a character and a constant source of asspulls, pretty much everything you can do with him has been done with him by this point.

[@robina.c.6380]

I think that not all villains have to be likable. Sometimes you just wanna see someone kick the shit out of the villain and that's okay too! I know I do, Joker is the worst.

[@damgedroses]

Well the character is one of the most gucked up either way, the whit he does in the many realities I always ducked up.

[@bugjams]

I mean, put yourself in Batman's shoes. You keep catching this mafia villain guy. He keeps making you go out of your way to do a bunch of elaborate stunts and tricks to catch him. He's slippery, hard to pin down, and even if Batman always catches him, he always causes anything from a huge inconvenience to a downright disaster. And what does this evil, uncatchable _mastermind_ of a villain look like and act like? *A fucking clown. He's a fucking clown in clown makeup and he somehow manages to outsmart you time and time again.* Don't tell me you wouldn't absolutely _despise_ someone like that.

[@robina.c.6380]

eat hot chip and lie especially when you’re someone like Batman, who takes himself very seriously. That’s why most of his villains are Like That tho. Wouldn’t it be boring if the brooding all-black hero faced again a brooding all-black villain?

[@RegalPixelKing]

Clearly Jared Leto's Joker has the best characterization over every other variation of Joker because I was not able to understand that every other variation of Joker was psychologically damaged. Jared Leto's Joker changes this by him having a tattoo that said "damaged" on his forehead, the symbolism was impeccable.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

There's this guy named "Joker" and then he tattooed "Damaged" on his forehead! Funniest shit I've ever seen!

[@beezlebubrulerofhell3118]

Lol

[@bobiboba5811]

True

[@TheRedBloodedge]

Your take is smarter than anything the movie and character itself was trying to do and actually was and I applaud you for pulling it off, you sick contrarian bastard whom I love (Couldn't find it in me to agree on the character being good still)

[@nicolasdurruti]

Jack is the guy that says "Well... but Nazis built the autobahn"

[@EcstaticObsessive]

Honestly I'm with Jack on pretty much all the points he's laid out in this video, and it's kinda left me wishing that this obnoxious godawful pimp-ish Joker was an intentional acting decision on the part of Leto, rather than something he just stumbled into because he's naturally that obnoxious. Like, if this was some 4D chess play from Leto where he knew full well how offputting and uncomfortable his iteration of Joker is, I would be tempted to give him credit for some actual method acting genius.

[@fellinuxvi3541]

You're right

[@alisonpurgatory85]

@@EcstaticObsessive does it actually matter how intentional it was? Does it reduce the impact and effect because it wasn't intentional? In fact, couldn't it intensify it? Real 'cringe' is always earnest, after all, you can't truly manufacture it. Would Leto's Joker have produced this reaction in the audience and Jack if the framing was intentional to paint him as cringy?

[@MissFotini]

The fact Leto's Joker was deeply unlikable is kinda the whole point. He was meant to be a detestable villain, a contrast to the literal squad of loveable-scamp-type villains. The squad were meant to be relatable, he was a foil to that. I do not like the actor one bit, but his depiction was spot on.

[@krombopulos_michael]

The biggest surprise I had in this video is that Margot Robbie has a landlord.

[@ThePillent]

I recently decided to relive my childhood and rewatch Batman the Animated Series. Never once did I watch that and go "I love Mark Hamills joker because he's relatable". I don't believe every character needs to be relatable, especially not villains. I'm not defending Leto's Joker but I just wanted to give my two cents on the subject.

[@ChuckyMarks]

ThePillent I think context is key. Leto could have worked in another movie that acted like a satire.

[@trevingrayek8292]

I think what makes TAS Joker work is that, since the show is still marketed for kids, they can’t just show him gruesomely Murdering people (with guns or knifes) so they had to be more creative with they mayhem he causes. This balances him being kinda fun and goofy but still dangerous and unpredictable.

[@ThePillent]

@@ChuckyMarks Ya, you're probably right. I haven't seen Suicide Squad but from my experience with the other DC movies of that era, it was most likely bad.

[@Z10ZeeTen]

This is an interesting reading, but I didn’t get the impression watching the movie that Leto’s Joker was intended as that sort of satire. Both the acting and the way he’s framed in the story seemed to be completely in earnest, and that’s likely why so many people found him irredeemably obnoxious.

[@PalitoSelvatico]

That is the problem, if the movie was a comedy it would be fine but it was trying to show him as edgy and evil. And ended up looking dumb. He acted like it was something deep, and it wasnt.

[@Horrorfreak106]

This exactly. I like where Jack is coming from and his take on this is very refreshing, but like you said , Leto's Joker was meant to be taken seriously and he was supposed to be "edgy", "dark", "cruel", etc. but instead it just came off as a...well, joke.

[@danielludwig647]

Yeah, I think Leto's Joker is a problem of context, a massively *out-of-place* take on the character, not an invalid one. Suicide Squad could've absolutely leaned into satire and made it work, but it's also one of those trainwreck productions with a lot of confused goals. I'm willing to admit he could've worked with a unified direction and vision. Instead of a mocking repudiation and takedown of the "edgy" Jokers we've had in the current era, it just felt like more of the same, but done poorly. I'm also biased, though. Jack's right in that there's always a personal bias when judging what makes a "good" Joker. I will always be biased towards Hamill's campy-but-threatening Joker, and was really not all that receptive to Ledger's grimy edginess. So, to me, Leto's just felt like it spun off even further from what I wanted, by stripping all the charisma away in favor of irritation.

[@officechairpotato]

@void OS That's the point Jack is making though I think. That the Joker is being portrayed as a try-hard edgelord who wants people to think he's a crazy badass. But really he's a pathetic douchebag. His motivations aren't relatable and he's a contemptible person. The portrayal serves as a direct challenge to the villain-worship people heaped on Ledgers joker, attacking the reasons for why they found him alluring and undermining them.

[@dirtyfilthee]

@@cblka part of the issue is it's so bad it's fourth wall destroying,I didn't just cringe at the character, I cringed at the writers and jared leto's performance. In that sense it's a failure because it completely destroys the characters cinematic reality.

[@arskakarva7474]

"Wait, this little anecdote about rat gifts is taking a very wholesome turn all of a sudden... Ah! It was you all along, Totoro-san!" Though in regards to the main topic, a big element of the Killing Joke is that it's very much highlighted that it's entirely possible and ultimately very likely that they're lying about everything shown in the flashbacks.

[@TheKaiserTia]

I always read it as a lie and that the Joker's origins continue to be unknown.

[@takemetoyonk]

What's the reference ya got there?

[@ahmedamine24]

@@TheKaiserTia Or that they're fake reconstructed memories.

[@hamman91]

"Jared Leto's Joker is good because it is bad." You Goddamn genius

[@NoxArcani-z4u]

Like the room by Tommy wiseau

[@kingofsting19]

This analysis is really interesting. I'm a big wrestling fan, and conventional wisdom in wrestling circles is that the heel, the bad guy, is someone who you're meant to hate enough that you'd be willing to pay money to see them get beat up. The general consensus among wrestlers is that if you're a heel, and you're not inspiring anger and disgust from the crowd, you've failed in your job. I think it's pretty interesting that people have such a visceral hatred of what is meant to be a villainous character and then translate that into considering it bad writing. You mention the 2015 Fantastic Four portrayal of Doctor Doom as an example of a similarly hated interpretation of a comic book villain, but you rarely see him being discussed in the same volume as Leto's Joker. Honestly, black Johnny Storm pissed more people off than Doctor Doom. I think it says a lot about, as you say, how people almost seem to demand being able to relate to characters and almost live vicariously through them out of their fiction.

[@michaelotis223]

The heel analogy is great, but with wrestling that IS the point - the audience is in on it as everything is scripted to mould a heel. With Suicide Squad's Squad's Joker it's unintentional. So I'm not sure it deserves any artistic merit, especially when the filmmakers clearly had Ledger's Joker in mind.

[@malcomchase9777]

You have to love to hate them, though. Villains and heels are fun to hate. It seems this one failed to do that.

[@junerutherford268]

The issue is, I don't want to see Jared Leto's Joker get beat up. I don't want to see him at all. Yes, you're supposed to hate the heel, but you're also supposed to want to watch the heel, you're supposed to be entertained by the heel. I feel no anger towards Leto's interpretation of the character, I just really want to stop watching it.

[@kingofsting19]

@@michaelotis223 I definitely agree that it's unintentional, but I think that also ties back to my point: they didn't aim for hateable and succeed, they strove for engaging and failed. But logically, if the villain is a bad guy, we should hate them, so it says something about the way that we relate to fictional villains that Leto's portrayal of the Joker as a hateable figure is considered a failure of writing.

[@ahmedamine24]

@@junerutherford268 His heat is cheap. Nicholson and Ledger and Hamill's jokers, those you wanted to see beaten to the ground. "Have you ever danced with the devil under the pale moonlight?" -PUNCH- Or "That's not funny, that's just... cough... not... cough... funny..." were profoundly satisfying moments. And of course Ledger's joker is all the more horrifying because he'll take the soundest beating and the most utter defeat, and treat it like a triumph. "You've got *nothing* to threaten me with, nothing with all your strength..."

[@caalmodeoc]

I would love Taika Waititi to direct a batfleck movie with Leto's joker. That would be something worth warching.

[@ahmedamine24]

I'm in.

[@ahandsomenarcissist11]

Why do you make me wish for something that does not exist

[@labyrinthwomb]

Yes!!

[@allanreele8352]

Wow, "the Joker in his most distilled form". That really resonates with me. I mean, Jared Leto's Joker really did rub me the wrong way, and I just couldn't tell if that obnoxiousness was intentional or not, and when I heard about all the stories involving his "method acting", it seemed like maybe he didn't even show up with the mindset to try anything artistic in general, rather it felt like he was just being random for random's sake. Especially after at first hearing how excited he supposedly was when it had been announced he got the role and he had believed (as we all had) that he would have a much larger role in it, or at least a bigger presence. So thinking it all over, all those elements, coupled with a parallel scenario with how everyone had initially responded to Heath Ledger first being announced for Joker, where just about everyone's initial response was (don't anyone deny it, there was a ton of hate for the guy in the beginning) *"What? That guy from Ten Things I Hate About You?"* or *"What? That pretty boy from First Knight?"* and then they all got surprised completely. So this time, when Jares Leto got hired, some expected something similar to Ledger in more ways than one, and I think Leto felt that, and went the opposite way with his take. And when that expected response of most people got flipped, people didn't like it. That's my two cents. Glad you brought some attention to this Jack, well done.

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

Allan Reele Yeah. Once could make a compelling case for Jared Leto’s Joker in-and-of-itself standing up to scrutiny, but not when compared to the rest of the movie. It would be one thing if the Joker being ridiculous and trying to hard was actually contrasted thematically with anything else in the movie, but the entire FILM is trying too hard to be that same kind of Hot Topic edgy. It comes off less as the character itself trying too hard, and more as another element of an entire movie that’s trying too hard.

[@mirmalchik]

I didn't hear about Ledger's playing the role until I'd already been told how good he was, but my first thought for sure would have been A Knight's Tale or Brokeback Mountain, both roles of which he crushes

[@mothcub]

weird how you don't talk about the real joker (me)

[@flavorfulsoups]

Oh my god it’s famous artist mothcub. I send all your art to my s/o, it’s very nice.

[@BaneDane_JB]

"Im the Joker Baybee" - The Joker Baby

[@SeymourDisapproves]

Well then let's talk about you, u twisted fucking cycle path

[@poopbuDDiesfan]

Fancy seeing you here.

[@alexnorth9670]

@@flavorfulsoups something something scars

[@Horatio787]

My takeaway is that Leto's Joker is bad, but the reason he's hated is because he's not cool and people think the Joker is supposed to be a badass.

[@AgentSteffi]

An it was so obvious all along. Just think about the 'we live in a society' edgy guys that had ledgers joker as a profile pic and idol

[@captainbeastwinger4940]

No i don't but he is suposed to be intimidating this Guy just comes off as a copycat trying to hard to be exactly like a previous joker Hey that would actually be a cool way to fix him

[@mikenike4266]

I like Jared Leto’s joker cause he felt different he felt slimes and greasy like a shitty drug dealer asshole a modern joker that has little to do with “society” and more with flare

[@The.Orange.Wizard]

Honestly I didn’t like him because he didn’t fit ‘The Joker’, because while he is an insane man preaching about ‘society’, it just forgets that he is a clown, you can’t see him with a flower that shoots acid, you can’t see him doing the things that you would associate The Joker with.

[@Horatio787]

@@The.Orange.Wizard I think it was Rich Evans who theorized they intentionally made a bad Joker so that people wouldn't expect the next one to measure up to Heath Ledger, and just be glad he was better than Leto.

[@PolyChromium]

I think the biggest issue with Leto's Joker is that he isn't self-satisfying enough. It feels like the way he dresses, all his tattoos and and the way he acts is all to impress other people, not because it's something that he wants to do. Whenever he's crazy, he's crazy at someone, and the only time he's crazy by himself is with the knife thing, and it's so orchestrated that it just feels like he was expecting someone to walk in and look. Other jokers use the reactions of others as entertainment, but Leto's Joker seems to do it out of a need to validate himself. He feels too relatable and understandable in a cringy way. The killing joke is a departure from the norm by making the reader understand what led him to becoming the Joker, but it does so in a way that weaponises the relatability and integrates it into the theme of the work. Just so it's not all doom and gloom, here's what could have made Leto's joker good without having to change his aesthetics or even his behaviour: have it so no one takes him seriously. Obviously he wouldn't have been able to have been in SS because he wouldn't be able to fill the role needed in that film, but this is a hypothetical situation so why limit ourselves completely? He acts in a cringy self-centred way and he never shows any sign of caring, and everyone who underestimates him has it blow up in their face and when he turns on them or goes behind their back he does so not out of revenge, but because that's just how he is. Having him showing no true relatable emotions, only outlandish shows and actions that are supposed to represent them, like he's an imitation of a human, something alien and unknown pretending to be human. Or just ride the cringe and show him placing the knives and measuring them out or rehearsing his shitty jokes. Show him enjoying the cringe. idk tl;dr make him care less

[@lucehuxley6933]

This is a very good take, my man

[@12171010011010]

You can't judge that from like 4 scenes. Not to mention that this *misses* the point of the video. The classic joker didnt have to go out of his way to find bright green shirts, yellow ties, purple suits, makeup, etc. You could use that exact same argument, that he didnt really like purple suits, but he put them on to intimidate people. And your suggestion to have people not take him seriously is fine, but keep in mind that in the movie, every scene he's in he is speaking to people beneath him that somewhat know what kind of a crazy loose canon serial killer he is. There is no opportunity for that to happen. None. You people need to remember one key thing. *Suicide Squad is not about the Joker,* at all. In fact they focused way too much on him. He is only used to develop Harley for the audience as a sympathetic character. His other scenes have absolutely no real impact on the rest of the characters or overall story. So to expect them to add *more scenes* is just stupid. The truth is that people *don't like* the character the Joker used to be anymore. They don't want a chaotic incoherent force of nature that exists as an opposite to Batman. They either want a sympathetic compelling "villain", like Joker (2019), or they want a dark edgy joker that no one understands so they can channel their angst, like Ledger's Joker. Both of these Jokers are great and well written for different reasons, but the point I'm making is that they deviated from people's expectations and ideas of the character. Leto's Joker does not deviate at all, and brings nothing new to the table outside of a modern twist. It exaggerates features that people already knew about, and that makes them disappointed that they can predict a character that is meant to be unpredictable. In other words, *people don't like Leto's Joker because they think it's shallow.*

[@jeremiahnoe5361]

@@12171010011010 Could not possibly disagree more. Joker is still shallow in the comics. The Killing Joke was retconned (needless to say, everything is) and almost every version we see of him in the modern era in actual for real comic books and not crappy live action adaptations is the force of nature agent of chaos variant, with zero attempt at relatability, and he's still a brilliant character, still just as popular as ever. Hamill's Joker is considered the greatest, and that one has no backstory at all. One dimensional, arguably even less. Jonny Keegan has it exactly right. Yeah, you could argue that Classic Joker was just as tryhard as Leto Joker, and I suppose that's a valid opinion, in the same way that you could argue that Leto Joker is just as terrifyingly unpredictable as Ledger Joker. A valid opinion because it's mostly subjective, but an opinion no one is going to share with you.

[@12171010011010]

"Joker is still shallow in the comics" I never suggested otherwise. please quote me if I did. Also you misunderstood my point. Sure people love Mark Hamill's Joker. Or any classic depiction of the Joker. Back then it was newer and their first exposure was a great experience because Mark Hamill is a good VA (which has nothing to do with backstories or origin stories). Doing the same thing again will not get the same result now. Also those last two sentences about opinions are incoherent sorry. Your disagreement against my comment was that you think no one agrees with it, therefore it's one that should be ignored? How is an objective comparison subjective because it's unpopular? The original comments first argument contained a fallacy, pointing it out is not an opinion, it's a valid objective observation.

[@stolensweetroll3668]

But doesn't that makes him more believable?

[@MiloKuroshiro]

Slime can take control of me whenever he wants to

[@nukiradio]

Uhhhh

[@basedchimera5859]

Call your mother

[@xymaryai8283]

posses me enby parent XD

[@charlottekesterton3822]

I believe Slime uses they/them pronouns

[@Epizephyrian]

@@charlottekesterton3822 Thought Slime's Twitter says he/him, no?

[@JerichoMoon]

Thought Slime has mastered the eyeball zone, now we are at their mercy. Awesome!

[@luxe.8419]

inb4 "how could you say something so controversial yet so brave"

[@morbidlycharming2164]

Surprise thought slime. The eyeballs spread.

[@SapphicFurry]

you've convinced me that leto joker works, holy shit

[@nukiradio]

I think 2019 joker was the most compelling in terms of human psychology. No magic clown gas, no hypno music chamber, just a crazed man with a gun tipping the scales of an off kilter city.

[@kimbre01]

I loved Leto's Joker. I found him mesmerizing and I couldn't take my eyes off him. You couldn't tell what he was going to do next. He was crazy and spontaneous. 90% of his scenes got cut and David Ayer said he if he could redo it he would hsve made the Joker the main villain. Also, he didn't get to choose his own costume. David Ayer had reason for the damaged tattoo and the silver teeth.

[@ShawnWeeded510]

This is like Hulk being reimagined with a "REKT" tattoo on his chest, a giant syringe on his arm that has "Steroids" written on it, and a big mushroom cloud tattoo that says Gamma World. Also these tattoos only appear when he Hulks out.

[@Bruh-zq7uo]

Difference is that there’s multiple versions of joker in the comic with lots of tattoos

[@xegton]

I’m going to be honest here and say that I would love to see a Hulk version like that. I burst out laughing just reading this description 🤣

[@zoushaomenohu]

I went "awwwww" at the story about Margot Robbie's/Guillermo Del Toro's rat! That's so sweet! I'm glad Venustiano's story had a happy ending.

[@MazzyMalkav]

You really said: "The Villian we needed." I can already hear the clinking of pitchforks and crackle of torch fire.

[@johnpaulsylvester3727]

Dude, this makes me want Robert Pattinson’s Batman to be intensely disliked- that is, he should be honestly depicted as a traumatized man who acts out violently against a system which he thinks is beyond reform. That’d be a HELL of a flick!

[@pnak0tic]

I feel like this is more a testament to how shitty and asinine most "media criticism" on youtube is than to how Jared Leto's Joker is that good

[@fillosof66689]

You can never lose a fight of you only pick ones with people well below your metaphorical weight. Just saying.

[@Odinsday]

pnak0tic I agree sadly and I still hate Jared Leto’s Joker. Sometimes I do wonder, how real was the NPC meme (I don’t wanna open up that can of worms).

[@MK_ULTRA420]

@@Odinsday NPCs are real. There are people who don't have an internal monologue but they exist on all sides of the political spectrum.

[@thischannelhasnocontent8629]

@@MK_ULTRA420 This isn't a thing, and you should be embarrassed at how uncritically you've bought into it.

[@MK_ULTRA420]

@@thischannelhasnocontent8629 You need to get out more and meet new people.

[@jahipalmer8782]

I still want a movie featuring a Jared Leto Joker.

[@hannahyamauchi839]

Every time Leto's Joker slams his hands or claps really loudly, it makes me flinch. It's the kind of psychological abuse that hits a little too close to home

[@osmium3691]

20:07 "Leto has, almost certainly unintentionally, done the same thing here" I think that's the true problem with the portrayal. Had they intended for the Joker to come across as a sad obnoxious buffoon, I think that would have worked quite well and I would honestly love to see that movie. But this movie takes the Joker seriously, it wants you to see the Joker as a badass and that's why it makes people cringe so much

[@andresi2002]

The thing is, there is one thing that kind of dismantles a lot of your argument. He isn't enjoyable. And he fails to do what the creators wanted him to do. They wanted to make a new joker that would be like Heath Ledger but more intense, and he wasn't. He wasn't intense he was silly. And joker is amazing when he's silly, like you showed. But he's only good when we can in some way identify with them or alienate them so much in a very specific way. If the joker is funny and silly, then we find his antics enjoyable because he's taking the seriousness of batman down a peg. And we in general like to watch him. If he's relatable and serious, then we enjoy his antics because it's cathartic and we enjoy seeing this force of nature doing the things we'd like to do. (If you want to say that's dangerous then I can agree with you in some way.) If he's alienating and disturbing then we should enjoy his antics because they give our protagonist a reason to fight. And we should see them as powerful and daunting, not be told, and even if we're told we better believe them. Which of these do Letto achieve? None of them, he's cringy, not funny; he's alienating, not relatable; he's pathetic, not daunting. He only succeeds to tell us an idea of the joker. But most importantly, he is just plain not enjoyable. And if he's not enjoyable, then what's the point? If they sought out to make a character nobody would enjoy, then they succeeded. So should we clap for them?

[@LucasDeziderio]

Thank you! That's just what I thought but couldn't put into words.

[@YourFaceisPretty]

I think the real trouble is that Suicide Squad doesn't know what to do with any of its characters. Systemic problems in works of art appear to audiences as more specific symptoms. The failure of story-telling makes it appear like Suicide Squad has fundamentally bad characters, but the real problems are much, much deeper. I really think he should have acknowledged that.

[@leviathxns]

This is exactly my thoughts on it. I found other Joker's enjoyable, I just don't find leto's joker to be any fun in any aspect. Even if villains are horrible people they should still be interesting to watch, no one wants a character to show up and make you feel like you have to grit your teeth and deal with them until they're off screen again. An example for me is Kimblee from FMAB, he's downright awful, a horrible, nasty person, but he's a fun character, he's interesting

[@lewislawrence1887]

Agreed

[@Coolguy98765]

I have to agree that Leto's Joker was the perfect foil to Affleck's Batman. Sadly, we never got a movie with them together and probably never will.

[@adrianccone]

That would have been awesome

[@Tacom4ster]

Let's trick edgelords to watch this Breadtube essay

[@takemetoyonk]

Wait I forgot what breadtube refers to

[@mushroomc0re]

What's a breadtube? Is it like the salmon cannon?

[@MK_ULTRA420]

@@takemetoyonk Breadtube = Capitalism bad, Socialism good

[@jasonmartin4775]

@@MK_ULTRA420 =lefttube

[@Hermannco]

"We all love the Killing joke" you lost me there "Im not going to say the Killing Joke is bad because thats enough hot takes BUT it misleads people" You got me there

[@kostajovanovic3711]

It is indeed clunky

[@unrulysimian3897]

Worst story Moore ever wrote.

[@dragoniraflameblade]

I love when the Joker is so camp and so extra, bonus if he can make me morbid-cackle. I grew up with the animated series and I've enjoyed most depictions. JL's Joker lacks that "reveling and having fun" aspect from what I've seen (I haven't seen the Suicide Squad or The Joker). I love your interpretation, tho.

[@Bruh-zq7uo]

JL?

[@dragoniraflameblade]

@@Bruh-zq7uo Wtf, I meant Jared Leto.

[@Bruh-zq7uo]

Finn Swan oh haha

[@Bruh-zq7uo]

Finn Swan he was having fun in the suicide squad scene when he’s just shooting at the suicide squad with machine guns and mini guns dying laughing

[@letsbehonest6322]

Same, which is why I loved the Gotham tv shows joker(s), the valeska twins. Gotham is a terrible show, but it does the villains really well. However, because suicide squad came out right when they began using the first twin as a joker they couldn’t call him joker or style him as such, but the actor nails the attitude of the joker. They didn’t name the joker until the finale because they thought audiences wouldn’t understand there being a movie joker and a TV joker, and them existing in separate universes.

[@shmednashmode]

I think there's something about the grit of Heath Ledgers Joker that gives a sense of realism to his behavior but a lot of that is probably still coming from what we aesthetically expect for his character. I genuinely can not picture the Joker meticulously laying out knives in basically an empty room just to lay down in it (mostly because at least my expectation of him is that his antics are meant to be a public spectacle) but I do think if we are looking more realistically at his mental state, it does make more sense for his behavior to be very particular, strange, and discomforting rather than alluring in some way. I have definitely come across the types to get something like 'damaged' tattooed on their face and maybe its just me but it has never made me feel intrigued.

[@12171010011010]

I've been trying to say this for so long. The Joker has always been silly, unconventional, contrary to social norms, excessively "cringe", and so on. He's not meant to be classy. He's not meant to be serious. He's meant to be a juxtaposition between a silly clown, and somehow an organised crime genius. 2019 Joker, while amazing in its own right, is up until he transforms into the joker a sympathetic symbol of lower social class. He wasn't the "joker" the whole movie. Leto's Joker is everything the joker is in the classical sense that he is the perfect villain for someone like batman, and someone that opposes his every ideology and action. You should only be able to find the joker compelling, through someone like batman. Heath Ledger's joker does a good job of showing this relationship, but if batman wasn't in the movie, he would be just as incoherent and "cringe" as Leto's joker.

[@myselfapretend]

Ok. You have my curiosity.

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

He’s a Teen Titans Go! villain superimposed into a crime drama action film. He’s almost a parody version of the character presented as the real deal. The problem isn’t so much the ideas behind the characterization but rather the fact that he’s obviously intended to be taken seriously. If you were to put Heath Ledger’s Joker into the Adam West Batman universe, it would’ve been a terrible family show. It’s the same thing here.

[@tonygomez4966]

I don’t think Suicide Squad can be classified as a crime drama action film.

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

Tony Gomez Neither do I, but I think the director thought it should have flavor of one.

[@thewordywarlock7159]

The point Jack is making is that the character of the Joker is, in itself, a parody.

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

TheWordyWarlock There’s parody and then there’s satire-and then there’s deconstruction. I think the Joker can operate on all three of those levels. The Joker can be a running gag, a commentary on crime tropes, and a scathing critique of a cultural status quo. For a character to work, they need to be molded to the story’s purpose. The value of any story is in its ability to make every element of itself relate meaningfully with its neighbors. I would argue Suicide Squad fails the alchemical process of making this Joker work in its narrative world.

[@tombaker3731]

I don't know man, I'm still not convinced. There's only so far a "but he's SUPPOSED to be annoying" argument can go. Even in the context of a purposeful attempt at creating an annoying character, I don't think there's anything that actually makes him that good. Silly and irreverent Jokers have been done much better before.

[@trevingrayek8292]

The Harley Quinn cartoon’s portrayal of him pulls it off much better and is honestly one of my favorite iterations.

[@YourFaceisPretty]

It's hard to argue that anything is supposed to be anything in Suicide Squad. How did Dan Olsen put it? It's "a matryoshka doll" of bad choices. Something like that.

[@sprouting_lady]

I have to agree. I think the biggest issue is that the film's tone is so all-over-the-place that it can't actually do anything of interest with the idea of him being annoying. I think there's also something to be said about how it seems to trivialize the abusive nature of his relationship with Harley, since the film digs just deep enough to actually acknowledge it but stays surface-level enough that it ends with the Joker breaking Harley out of prison being framed as a good or romantic thing. Jared Leto's Joker isn't great to start with, but it's the film that completely ruins it. It tries to do everything, and fails utterly at everything as a result.

[@courtneys.7113]

i don’t think he was arguing that jared leto is a genius who planned it to be this way. i think he’s saying that jared leto accidentally created the perfect representation of the joker through this mess of a movie.

[@MrJesusisreal]

that's a really good point. intentionally bad or unintentionally bad is still equally bad. self-awareness doesn't mitigate that. and let's be honest, a movie like suicide squad has done NOTHING to warrant the assumption that its badness was part of some weird, intentional, meta deep artistry to subvert audience expectations.

[@NulixFTW]

I always liked Leto's joker. The idea of him being an obnoxious riff raff wannabe has always been great to me

[@mallosteric]

ok you convinced me I never realized, but damn he really is. Even down to the weird cycle of violence stuff nice work!

[@adrianccone]

Saaaaaame. I always feel so alone

[@Tedris4]

"Framing within the context of a movie, what's that?" Leto's Joker would probably work in some kinda Batman parody where Batsy is some classist Musklike on a power trip. But Suicide Squad was trying to be serious. Like Caesar Romero's Joker wouldn't work in The Dark Knight, and Heath Ledger's wouldn't work in the 60's show. If they were, they would be considered bad Joker adaptations. People also don't relate to either of those two Jokers. Maybe edgelords but we're not counting them. One is a silly gangster and the other intentionally has no backstory.

[@SorchaSublime]

I dont know how to feel about the usage of homestuck music by one of the people critiquing Leto's joker featured in this video. I also dont know how to feel about the fact I immediately recognized that same homestuck music.

[@kath744]

whew ok im glad im not the only one who noticed

[@tamerafarly7666]

I actually liked Jared Leto's portrayal of the Joker. People wrote him off too fast and didn't give him a chance to improve. He needed a better script and just needed the tattoo on his forehead removed by the next movie. He works well with Margo Robbie's Harley Quinn and it sucks that they are rushing Harley's arc to have her be emancipated when we haven't even really seen her be confined.

[@AnadynTheCursed]

I'm getting a bit of a Kylo Ren (especially from Awakens) vibe from the way Leto's Joker is criticized. "But he's so cringe!". Yeah, that's kind of the point.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

But Kylo Ren has a reason to be how he is and his cringey parts are intentional

[@iTzNikkitty]

True, but with Kylo Ren that was actually intended. If the intent behind Suicide Squad's Joker was to be cringey and unlikable, then I could probably get behind it.

[@seropia]

Thought Slime just taking over Jack's video SENT me.

[@ListlessLion]

What I liked about Jared Leto's Joker is that the depiction actually makes me uncomfortable. I guess that's something other people didn't want, or couldn't see through their cringe detectors, but I found it really fascinating. Also, good for you thoughtslime, I really hope to see more exercising of your power to infiltrate other channels.

[@saltysauce8692]

The big issue I have is that it doesn't feel like Jared's joker wants to do the things he's doing it feels like he's being forced to do them because "it's what the joker's supposed to do" ya know

[@FLUING]

We can’t really say Jared Leto’s Joker was bad because we barely saw him

[@talariswatts-el6174]

So true.

[@soupalex]

in fact, i "barely saw him" so much, i didn't even watch the film at all

[@soupalex]

(sorry if this is the joke you were making in the original comment… as mentioned, i haven't seen the film, but gather that joker doesn't have much screen time? and assumed this is what you were referring to)

[@Wesmadon]

He's also the most realistic Joker. There isn't an army of minions that seem to know what he wants by reading his mind. There isn't any questions about how he makes his money. And he is most accurate from a psych profile. Anti-social personality with sexual sadist tendencies. Everyone exists to be used by him, he's only really interested in Harley until he realizes she likes being tortured (he only likes it against people's will) but changes his mind once she is remade to be a reflection of him. Even over the top dress shows need to be center of everything while not actually caring if it's liked or not. He's kinda what Joker would actually be in our world. Probably what people don't like about him. People that are like that aren't liked, aren't cool and aren't relatable for most folks.

[@DonLasagna]

I think this is a great video that made me appreciate more what leto was going for. however, if leto and the crew were going for a sort of tryhard edgy joker, then I wish more characters in suicide squad would acknowledge this put-on and call out his shit rather than reacting like they actually think he *is* the shit. for a tryhard asshole like the joker, i feel like many people, myself included, need someone straight like batman to bounce off of, to show that the author of the work acknowledges joker's shit and doesn't actually think it's genuinely cool. otherwise it feels like it's not just joker that's posturing as cool, but the entire piece of art itself. I think an ideal suicide squad would have more of leto being a tryhard, but have deadshot as a stand in for batman and sort of call out his shit. I think it's also why I liked black mask so much more than leto's joker in birds of prey - black mask could have easily been seen as this ooooh so cool so scary bad guy, but harley always belittled him and showed him for the clown he was. then, when he had his psychopathic lashing out due to his own insecurity, it creates this jarring shift that was genuinely terrifying. you see that black mask was a clown, but also see why someone like him is feared even by other criminals.

[@samanthaceiliduckworth70]

Awesome video, Jack! Easily one of my new favorites of yours. As a long time DC comics and Batman fan this really got me thinking about the character and the dissonance between the fandom feelings towards past adaptations vs. recent cinematic adaptations. I really, really enjoyed this.

[@betsyfernYT]

I think the cringe of Leto's Joker is different to the silliness of Romero's Joker because he's failing at what he's trying to do. I truly believe that the writers of Suicide Squad thought this was going to be cool. They thought people were gonna see this guy and think, wow, this is the biggest gangster I've ever seen. He's so relatable and awesome. I admire him. And really and truly, he in reality is just that kid in high school who idolized the joker and wore "why so serious" t-shirts and used it as an excuse to annoy and harass his fellow students. Romero plays up his camp role exactly as expected and called for, which is not cringe because it's doing what it set out to do. Leto's Joker is cringe because it fails spectacularly at what it's trying to do: be appealing and cool.

[@betsyfernYT]

The thing that we like about the camp, silly Joker like the one in the original comics or Romero's performance is that he's silly and likeable. Like, his jokes and behavior don't annoy THE AUDIENCE. The important thing about annoying characters is, of course, that they ONLY annoy the OTHER characters and NOT the audience. Because the one way a character can actually negatively interact with the audience is by annoying them. The annoyance is real. If the camp Joker does some prank on Batman that we like, it's like, hell yeah. He's annoying Batman, but he's not annoying US. When Leto's Joker tries to annoy the other characters, it also annoys the AUDIENCE. It's like WE have to put up with him, too. part of it is seeing Leto portraying him, since Leto is such an annoying figure by himself, but the other part of it is the framing that this is an "edgy" guy that we're supposed to enjoy unironically for telling it like it is and not dealing with bullshit via throwing his own pointless bullshit back at whoever he's interacting with. But he isn't cool. He isn't relatable in any way; he isn't likeable to the audience. The tone towards him is all wrong. The movie has to acknowledge that the annoying character is annoying and give him punishment for that; otherwise, the narrative isn't satisfying and we have to put up with some guy acting like a dickhead for the whole movie, or at least for 7 minutes of it. On top of all of this, the Joker is a character that people have a real, tangible attachment to. People have cemented in their minds a version of the Joker that they like and care about deeply. And this Joker is kind of like a mockery of the Joker they love. My favorite Joker is honestly the one in the old comics, so I don't think him being one-dimensional or unsympathetic is a problem. But I do think he's cringe and he makes the Joker as a character look bad BY being cringe. And the cringe is real.

[@an8strengthkobold360]

Exactly, it really doesn't feel like the writer's are in on the joke.

[@MiloKuroshiro]

For me the only thing is he's just there. He clearly had a lot of content cut for better or worse. He's just there. There's nothing to like or dislike or think about it. There's no fun. He could work if his character was more energetic and not took that seriously by everyone on the movie. The framing needs to change

[@12171010011010]

It would have been better if he wasn't there at all. He existed to make Harley more interesting and compelling, but it wasn't well written or interesting imho. Harley was boring, and seemed pretty useless compared to everyone else. Even with all the cut scenes, he had no real place in the plot. He rescued Harley only to leave her exactly in the same position a few minutes later. That's it.

[@HowardAltEisen]

Yknow, I was coming into this super skeptical, but you've actually got me pretty convinced I've gotta say. Really, what could be more Joker than trying to get people to question their own preconceived notions of what a villain is supposed to be, anyway? I dig it.

[@leonorf2730]

Thank you for telling the rat story. I have a huge soft spot for those smart little lovebugs, and hearing of a rat used as nothing but a disposable prop left me just the tiniest bit wound up. My soul is at rest and my posture has straightened. Thanks, Margot Robbie.

[@s7robin105]

Leto’s Joker comes off more as a try hard fan of Joker who wanted to be him but was just ignored. Idk that’s how he comes off to me

[@gapsule2326]

Reminded me of Batman Beyond Joker gang

[@s7robin105]

@@gapsule2326 YES THAT

[@chuckbatman5]

You could easily recontextualize Jared Leto's Joker as an obsessive fanboy of the "original" Arthur Fleck Joker portrayed by Joaquin Phoenix. Like if they bring in Joaquin Phoenix for a Batman movie, they could allude to the idea that the Leto Joker we saw before was just a cheap knock-off and this guy is the real deal.

[@gracefullynadine864]

Ironically, you actually just helped me figure out why I hate him while debunking those points.

[@razieldumas]

The story with the rat was worth the entire video.

[@AlexBermann]

My favorite Joker is the Joker of Arkham Asylum because this interpretation of the character shows one of his most important traits in the intro: he's Batmans prisoner and you have the feeling that he is winning. While absolutely insane, Joker is a brilliant and unpredictable planner and manipulator. With his brilliant plans, he can accomplish things that would be impossible to most - and even if he seems to fail, you never know if this isn't what he planned for to begin with. Also, he knows just what buttons to push to get people to do what he wants - even his backstory and his identity is a story he regularly changes because it is just a tool to give people the impression he wants to give them. His manipulativeness also is compulsive - he could have succeeded many times if he sometimes took a boring, yet effective method. Basically, Joker uses his supposed insanity to achieve his goals - but his priorities and goals show that he really is insane. I believe that many fans forget the point of the killing joke. Joker didn't become the way he is because he had a terrible day because a terrible day didn't make Gordon a villain. Jokers Origin story doesn't explain anything about him but the fact that he had been dangerously insane before. For him, the mockery is the genuine reality. In return, this is a commentary to Batman himself - to the idea that he became Batman because his parents were murdered.

[@kitviola946]

So what you’re saying is...he’s not the joker we needed, but the one we deserved

[@RatherWatchThemSA]

I literally just discovered Thought Slime yesterday, now he's invading other channels? Whaaa?

[@Hoshikage869]

Have not seen the movie, and I don't want to (not because of Leto Joker), but I found this very interesting. I love a "it was good actually" contrarian take when it's well supported.

[@wadecrudgel6006]

Going over these older videos and I’m just so impressed by how clear and digestible you make your point in them, as well as being just really funny too. Hopefully you’re doing well out there!

[@riotbreaker3506]

Lucky for you, Jack, I love an underdog

[@Rage_Casanova]

there were some interesting things in the extended cut of suicide squad where joker and harley's relationship was concerned. Specifically a scene on a highway where they play chicken and there is a small moment where joker cracks a bit in response to how "crazy" harley is. Really punches up and adds context to the scene where he asks her to die for him. There is a small thread of guilt shown as well as fear. The leto joker as you pointed out is putting on a sort of act and seeing that he does fear for his own safety and is capable of guilt in some capacity leads me to believe the character had it been expanded upon could have really gone somewhere. People were theorizing left and right that the Leto Joker was one of the robins that had been abused into being a proto joker by the original this would line up with the aflec batman because he was supposed to be further into his career as batman and a tad older than the usual versions we'd get so it wouldn't have been out of the question for him to have had and lost a robin already. Great video. You deserve a 2 liter of grape soda and a bear skin rug.

[@de132]

i've got nothing to add to the discourse. but i'm sad that i'll never get to be the rat that lives in guillermo del toro's house🥺🥺🥺😔😔😔😢😢😢😭😭😭

[@jasperaguayo6252]

I think everyone forgets that the entire Suicide Squad movie was terrible. Jared Leto’s joker was just a symptom.

[@tonygomez4966]

I’ve been waiting for someone to make this for years. Thanks Jack!

[@AuntBibby]

24:32 honestly, when i first heard this line in JOKER (2019) it crystallized in my head how much the movie is trying to “have its cake and eat it too” in a political sense... like, if the laws are *designed* to enforce economic inequality, you *have* to break these laws to affect the status quo... which is an inherently uncivilized process... but that’s good!!! it’s *more* than morally justified!!! however, the neoliberals who wrote/consulted on/edited/lorded over JOKER’s script didn’t want to *actually* inspire the audience watching the movie to physically fight back against the police state they lived in, so they had to throw conflicting arguments into the narrative CoughapocalypticriotsCough

[@discountchocolate4577]

I came away from Joker 2019 thinking the writers/directors _accidentally_ made the case that the riots at the end of the movie were kind of a good thing, that if Arthur hadn't decided he "wasn't making a political statement" (even though he _was_ in a vulgar unconscious way) and if he hadn't rejected his influence and de facto leadership position in an emerging mass movement against Gotham's plutocrats, he could have become a working-class vigilante antihero character. The tragedy is that Arthur and his followers go full lumpen and their violent riots fail to manifest in an organized form that would _actually_ threaten the neoliberal status quo represented by the Bloomberg-esque/Trump-esque Thomas Wayne. If nothing else it convinced me that Batman's parents totally deserved it.

[@AuntBibby]

everyone in the comments here is suggesting subtle changes to Leto’s depiction in Suicide Squad that might put all his other aspects in a cool, badass, enigmatic, funny or intimidating light. but that’s exactly what @jacksaint is criticizing all over again!! Think about how Batman often describes The Joker in the comics nowadays: he says he’s disgusting, right? Batman says he hates everything The Joker stands for. The Batman’s central internal struggle is to resist the intense urge he has to just murder The Joker instead of locking him up every six months, because he doesn’t want to become the very thing he hates most: an amoral killer who gets off on causing others pain, confusion, sorrow & revulsion like The Joker.

[@ahmedamine24]

Then he should step aside and let Red Hood finish him. "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you either."

[@tonystark106422]

I greatly enjoyed your video, great work and thank you for sharing. I find your analysis fascinating, and I would have loved to have seen more of this concept. I only have one problem with your argument: I am unconvinced that this was deliberate on the part of the filmmakers. It's a brilliant idea, and it would have been fantastic to have Leto's Joker be the main antagonist of the film, even setting him up for other movies with other characters, but that's not what happened. If this character was front-and-center for the film, if events and actions and motivations centered around him, if he were given more time to be deliberate and purposeful in this interpretation of the character? Then I would say you were absolutely right. As it stands? I find this a extremely compelling concept that never really got the chance to expand, and come to fruition. All the same, I loved video, and I can't wait to see what you do next.

[@chibi013]

Dude this was a amazing. Also, always love to see Slimey Brain flex his Batman expertise.

[@FullThrottleOtter]

Consider: Other Jokers are how Niceguy/Incel types see themselves. Leto Joker is how everyone else sees them. Thus, why they hated it - they don't want to have to consider that they're a sad, obnoxious, abusive joke.

[@synonymous_]

I'll give this a listen but that entire movie was an irredeemable trainwreck

[@RoxioGamingHD]

In my opinion the main thing that made Leto's joker different is that he seems like if you didn't take him seriously he would get really pissed off and even if he killed you after it would still really bother him that somebody thought his "damaged" tattoo was cringe.

[@LexYeen]

...You convinced me. Damn you, you convinced me. (not actually mad, just impressed.)

[@gabischmit4068]

17:50 As someone who was a teen when this movie came out, I wouldn't say that the idealization was a minimum (I knew so many teens who reignited their romanticization of Joker and Harley's relationship in this movie even despite the hate of the character or lack of screen time). However, I still see your point.

[@cerebrustusbordungolski7183]

It was honestly a great video on a spiky subject. After watching, the biggest counterpoint I still have would be more a criticism of suicide squad than just the joker specifically, from a narrative pespective, Batman and Joker compliment each other, the things that would make them stupid to an audience seem less so because they reinforce the themes and ideas promoted by the other, not having a Batman in this movie actually makes for a much worse Joker, because normally they would contrast each other, I would see Batman physically cringing at Leto's Joker and then I would no longer feel like the movie's being ridiculous at my expense, but to illustrate how Batman also hates this Joker. So far one of the few portrayals of the character that has managed to be enjoyable without a Batman has been Joaquin Phoenix's not only because he can be relatable, but because he has the nuance to carry the story as main protagonist, this guy can only carry a couple of scenes and even that is too much embarassment that adds nothing of value and has nothing to say othet than "hey look at this moron trying so hard to be cool!"... Unlike the original he can't even act like an honest to god clown. In few words if you can have any other Joker, why would anybody waste their time with this one?

[@SeymourDisapproves]

What are you talking about the Joker making jokes solely for his own amusement is the most relatable thing I've ever heard

[@Sirvaria]

I think you're right in saying that the Joker as a character is often satire of contemporary ideas of villainy, or at least critical reflections of it. The insanity that seems to carry through all the iterations, for me at least, is part of that and is a reflection of society's apparent need to classify every morally reprehensible deed as only being possible due to psychologically damaged individuals, rather than signs of systematic societal problems (or the inverse of this as in "Joker" as subversion) This also carries over into the changing backstories, often they play into the contemporary ideas of where such abhorrent psychological damage comes from, nature vs nurture and so on. But all of this, in my opinion, just makes the Leto Joker all the more unbearable. I wish i could agree with you, that he simply reflects our modern idea of a stereotypical villain cranked up to 11, but instead he feels like his creators just didnt get the joke. He feels like someone didnt understand the satirical make up of the character, and only mimiced the connection to contemporary ideals, without ever understanding it to add onto that. Is satire even really satire when you just repeat reality? When you never add onto that, be it through exaggeration or personal ideas/ideals/opinions or just even a different perspective? Jared's joker is just an empty simulacra and is closer to an unwilling critique of big entertainment monopolies than anything with real intended meaning. And even then he is so genuine in his copy that even for that he is too bland. It actually reminds me of the trend of adding contemporary references as jokes without punchlines, like the whole of pixels or ready player one, just hollow repetition without any payoff.

[@MANJYOMETHUNDER111]

One of the most interesting dichotomies in the world is the comedy/gritty presentation of the batman mythos. The series has volleyed so hard between the two so often, and it works in both forms.

[@camerono.3183]

I want an interpretation of the Joker where he legit is a cult leader haha.

[@letsbehonest6322]

In the TV show Gotham for a while their 1st joker Jerome had a cult that brought him back to life, then he died again and leadership went to his brother Jeremiah who became the ‘real’ joker.

[@Komodofq8]

Leto’s Joker is the perfect reflection of every guy who identifies with Ledger or Phoenix’s Joker

[@CommanderSteelTrap]

I don’t think there’s a wrong way to play the Joker. He’s meant to be unpredictable and have no sense of sanity, so he can literally act anyway he wants, and in terms of the Joker, it makes sense.

[@futurestoryteller]

I think their problem was in not doing a whole movie with him. This argument kind of demonstrates that people either want a Joker who is genuinely intimidating and not sympathetic (something you kind of ignored) a la Nolan's Joker, _or_ a character who is damaged and relatable, but not one that seems disingenuous, _even though_ there's no reason we should need Joker - of all characters - to be *genuine*

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

"Objectively bad due to being long"

[@leonardorossi998]

Somewhere, Mauler is preparing an 8 hour response to that joke :P

[@mallosteric]

@@leonardorossi998nice ref! also ikr, why listen to mauler for 6 hours when you can listen to Mahler for 6 hours

[@basedchimera5859]

@@mallosteric mahler?

[@fishking4000]

I really liked the knife circle, because I had a lot of fun imagining a Joker goon very carefully laying them out to the Joker's incredibly detailed specifications.

[@kapitankapital6580]

The thing is that this Joker exists in a film that, more than any other, explicitly tries to get you to empathise with traditional villains. This causes a significant amount of dissonance with a campy, Saturday morning Joker. Characters don't exist in a vacuum, and whilst you can have good characters in bad films, if your character doesn't work in your film, if he doesn't fit with the themes or the tone in such a way that he is jarring to the audience and hurts the enjoyment of the film, then I'm sorry to say he's a bad character.

[@rosemali3022]

From what i remember it wasn't Letos performance that made his character unwatchable, it was the other ones around him. They just didn't react to his antics in a believable or understandable way.

[@Calcagno1988]

God if they weren’t so terrible with world-building, they could’ve implied that this isn’t even the original Joker but some desperate cringey poser. It actually works thematically and now I kinda dig that interpretation.

[@josephmorris3778]

I think George Clooney put it best. In one of the behind-the-scenes segments of Batman and Robin, Clooney stated that because he was the third Batman, he was destined to be the worst due to the high levels of success associated with Keaton and Kilmer. So, with Nicholson and Ledger before Leto, he kind of ended up becoming the Joker's George Clooney. Of course, Clooney never sent Alicia Silverstone a rat or Arnold Schwarzenegger a used condom.