Jeff Responds to the Mormon Debate

[@ApologiaStudios]

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[@VAATAUSILI4139]

Jeff's extreme hatred, lack of knowledge of CHRISTIANITY, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, is obvious.

[@awetterhan]

Audio Starts at 4:08

[@jackal1115]

You're a hero

[@aguiasnow]

There's always a good fellow that's going to tell us when it starts

[@hiwelcometobennys1006]

You are a saint

[@ryanrhoads9546]

Truly the best

[@paulrichards383]

and then gets really loud after 17 minutes

[@Lightylight]

Kwaku said in his testimony that he was raised in a liberal household and was a Methodist for less than a year until some beautiful Mormon girls invited him to LDS church where he “felt in his heart” that they had better answers for the afterlife concerning gays and Muslims and Hell. Of course that answer felt great to his human nature! He literally had no understanding of the Bible or Protestant theology and was suckered away by chicks that gave him attention 🤦🏻‍♂️ OOF

[@italianstallion4662]

Wow! Great job seeing and calling all that out.

[@doubleoo519]

Tuuuffff 😂 savage bruv

[@srilankangenie]

Sheologians can bring people to Christ faster than your pastor

[@heftymagic4814]

@@srilankangenie u dont get points for bringing people to christ faster, you do it the right way, to the right christ

[@srilankangenie]

@@heftymagic4814 I have a question that needs a straight answer. Does the real Jesus create the Holocaust for our own good? Or does he give humans the free will to choose what they want to create and leave that choice purely up to us?

[@danielomitted1867]

Kwaku strikes me as disingenuous. He'll ask a question in hopes of scoring some kind of point then quickly scurry onto something else when its being answered. Because hes not interested in the answer, he just wants to find some angle of attack.

[@ryanrivera5611]

Daniel Omitted that’s how Mormons are .

[@danielomitted1867]

@@ryanrivera5611 typically not though. At least not the ones ive encountered. Id expect this of catholics or muslims, mormons not so much.

[@sevenfree7753]

Hes legit gay too!!!

[@valeriereneeharper]

That's his claim for why he wanted to start a YT channel. He thought LDS needed more people on his side to attack better so he took on the responsibility to attack on "better" angles to defend their beliefs.

[@robertknight3354]

Kwaku seems like a future non Mormon. Like the LDS version of good mythical morning.

[@built4speed101]

Jeff, I'm glad you stopped his cultic proselytizing on your show!

[@deadeye851]

I doubt it would have made a difference, from what I can tell there's only Christians, Mormons, New Atheists, and Oneness heretics watching this. All of which aren't likely to have been moved by a last ditch effort to raise emotional bias against the opposition and drown them out with basically a "we aren't like them" appeal.

[@ebenezercunningham2169]

I agree, I was glad he stood up on that.

[@built4speed101]

deadeye851 I understand your point, but for the Mormon representative to "bear his testimony" was wrong and disrespectful. He used faulty appeals, racism and then wanted to proselytize people?! The Mormon worldview is hypocritical and heretical! James 1:2-8 NASB Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, [3] knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. [4] And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. [5] But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. [6] But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. [7] For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, [8] being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

[@autumn5852]

built4speed101 why?

[@protruth1]

Hayden Carroll when that father doesn’t exist and he is really the devil

[@kahelekoki6215]

That dude was a classic case of a fool who thinks he knows everything but knows nothing and does not put in the hours studying his beliefs but expects everyone else to listen to him and only him

[@cdowis]

He does not represent the church, only himself.

[@PatristicArcana]

Amen! (We're talkin' about Derbin, right?)

[@klarity1111]

Mormons expect their Priesthood to be respected. They really think that people are going to feel the "power" of their Mormon priesthood.

[@PatristicArcana]

Klarity*11, they expect their priesthood to be respected within their church. If anything, they expected their priesthood to be disrespected from outside their church, and here you are.

[@italianstallion4662]

@@PatristicArcana why is it when someone calls out the facts in a particular religion, you take it as being disrespectful. No names were called, nothing taken out of context. Just pure facts. That wasn't even directed towards you but I'd give a polite nudge for you to take constructive criticism better

[@IAMBENNYBLANCO.]

Love this channel!!! A true must for Christians to learn from!!! GREAT TOOL IN THE BODY OF CHRIST!

[@Gondor149]

In the future there should be a dedicated moderator inducing a more formal debate setting. James and Jeff did great trying to explain Kwaku's fallacies but there was so much interruption that a lot of it got lost in translation. This would probably avoid Kwaku's crazy derailment at the end when he realized he wasn't equipped to defend Mormonism shifting the entire debate topic to Calvinism.

[@bobvukich25]

I think to at least some degree it is instructive to note the crazy Calvinists attacking the Church of Jesus Christ really don't offer anything either intellectually fulfilling or real. Kwaku is simply making the point of either how they are being intellectually dishonest by arguing positions which inherently require the creatures to possess freewill, or they don't understand the implications of their position. Either way, they offer nothing in the way of salvation.

[@dtanner2975]

I was able to listen to this semi and weird debate and as someone looking into religion, I did not like the Apologia gumbo. It was terribly moderated and edited and lacked, what christians call, gospel centered discussion. As I have looked into many religions, the one that resonates best with me and my inward thoughts was not the mormons or the Apologia's point of view, but it is a religion called The Church of Jesus Christ of the latter day saints. I believe this is what it is called. Just my thoughts as I have looked at Christian and non Christian beliefs.

[@Gondor149]

@@dtanner2975 I encourage you to watch James whites formal debates on the Trinity with Muslim opponents. I went through the same thing around 5 years ago. I wouldn't base anything on this debate as it was unfocused.

[@joannaflowers5563]

@@dtanner2975 The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is essentially the same thing as the mormon church. You may feel a pull toward them, as many people do. However, this does NOT indicate truth. Their theology is extremely "creature" focused, rather than "Creator" focused. The enemy (Satan) appears as an angel of light and deceives many with what looks like or feels like truth, but is a lie. He will bait with what seems like truth, or even (partial) truth itself. It is alot more appealing to most people to reject what the Bible says about salvation. Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life, He is the ONLY way of salvation. His sacrifice atoned for our sins, bridged the gap that separated man from God, and made fellowship possible again. Salvation is found in Jesus alone, written in the Bible alone, NOT what Joseph Smith says, or any other person who attempts to add to, change or supplement the Bible, claiming their revelation to be inspired by God. I encourage you as well to look at other debates, and also other Apologia videos as they are much better at explaining/teaching Christian doctrine than this debate was. Justin Peters, Carter Conlon, and Todd Friel also are solid from which to learn doctrine as well. Prayers for you that the true God (which I belive is the God of the Bible) leads you to the Truth you are seeking 🙂

[@booboobearsugarbear9109]

First of all, Jeff was "in charge" but he was not the moderator...second, Dr.white and Pastor Jeff the mighty ninja tried their hardest to evangelize kwaku with scripture? In context? Original Hebrew and Greek context....they could've went even farther into the grammatical issues that kwaku would need to deal with having the position he has...and 3rd, the editing?...why in the world is that important to the topic at hand here?...thats irrelevant...BTW I think the editing was great...another better than what you're probably doing 😅 so stop running your mouth about things u don't know or understand, please and thank you

[@bryansphere6359]

I watched the entire debate! Kwaku could do nothing but appeal to his own confidence level and make dogmatic empty authority claims. He did so much interrupting that Jeff and Dr. Whites points could hardly have room to be completed. God bless you brothers at Apologia for standing for the truth of Christ and confronting the works and doctrines of darkness! Soli Deo Gloria 🙌🏻

[@John3.36]

I am no mormon, but the kid did a great job. It was two on one. Two highly educated seasoned veterans versus one young mormon. He did really well putting them both on the defensive about predestination. Predestination needs to be called out for the folly that it is.

[@bryansphere6359]

@ John 3:36 Sir, Whether or not you agree with Calvinism is a separate issue. I won’t dispute that with you. But, I have to say that you are wrong that Kwaku did a good job. I’ve watched debates for over 15 years on a vast range of topics. And have studied apologetics for over 20 years. When a person does good, I have no problem saying so (even if they are an atheist) debating against my own faith as a Christian. The debate with this Mormon fellow did not go well for him. The only thing he had going for him was: 1. Courage (in the first place) to fly out and go on the show with two very scholarly and educated Christian apologists And, 2. A high level of energy and feistiness But let’s not mistake those two things with what it means to actually have: •good arguments •good rebuttals •a good grasp on Christian theology (especially the aspects of it you are debating) •proper exegesis of cited scriptures The way this kid conducted himself was very poor. And anyone who takes the time to closely and honestly observe will see that!

[@John3.36]

Thank you for the kind reply. I see where you are coming from. Since you enjoy debates, perhaps you will enjoy an analysis of this debate: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a3a1kpZ8f6trbbc

[@fayelewis5476]

What is predestination? Is predestination biblical?" Answer: Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will…In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.” Many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination. However, predestination is a biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means, biblically. The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33, 9:11, 11:5-7, 28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2, 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved. The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23), and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen, because they are receiving what they deserve. God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God; therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some. If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to choose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the choice-all who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who is seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand-in-hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” www.gotquestions.org/predestination.html

[@John3.36]

The objection is not predestination itself. Check out the video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fai5d5SrhsqogZY

[@logostruth1868]

Post-modernism has further corrupted Kwaku's mind (a phenomenon rife in millenial crowds) - ie. words are meaningless and up to an infinite variety of interpretations based on feelings and relativist/subjective machinations.

[@billhays6826]

But it is super frustrating when those like Kwaku get a hold of your son like they have done to mine. Suspension of reason and common sense... There is somehow something super appealing in the "modern" LDS to that age 18-20 year old age group. While I agree they prey of theologically impaired, our son was baptized and confirmed Christian (with 3 others siblings doing the same) and even then was susceptible. Kwaku and others like him are soul killers. The dude just likes to hear himself talk.

[@SamM-lv8hr]

Don't blame post-modernism for Kwaku, post-modernists at least know how to read

[@italianstallion4662]

I know it's been 2 years since thus all happened, but I'd love to see a follow-up on this guy and see if anything has changed. Much love brothers and sister. God bless 🙌🙏❤

[@saguaro23]

Just Google him. He’s stronger than ever in his faith.

[@SamM-lv8hr]

Still Mormon and also a covid denier who organized events of hundreds of people that made people sick and got people seriously hurt during the event itself.

[@italianstallion4662]

@@SamM-lv8hr appreciate you taking the time for your feedback Sam. Thank you!:)

[@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx]

​@@SamM-lv8hrgood, I'm a covid denier, but thanks for sharing

[@iindseycantrell912]

I watched the original debate and the whole time I was thinking ....hmmm dr white and pastor Jeff are holding back. Only in a way to be gracious to kwaku. They I believe were trying to nudge him to see his own foolishness and inconsistency while kwaku was spiraling out of control handing out last ditch efforts like polytheistic Jews and ...,something about math. I high five dr white and durbin for their restraint. God has really used these two men who have really taught me a lot about the Bible and reformed theology. It wasn't to many years ago that I was a Christian who if asked about the trinity could have really blown it. My heart goes out to the mormons. I live in Utah so I know many well. My prayer is that they find rest and peace in the truth. Seeing mormons live out their faith is like watching someone try to walk across hot sand. They have to keep hopping around trying not to get burned by the realities of lds doctrine and all the while with a really big smile on their face.

[@austenkincaid1987]

Agreed. It was tough to listen to the whole thing but Durbin and Dr White were very gracious while still firm with what’s in the text

[@stunnr8406]

Iindsey Cantrell stop lying to yourself, they were not gracious and could not answer kwakus questions with clarity. They were rattled, frustrated not at being interrupted (because they were doing the same) but at the fact they were being questioned back and had nothing substantial while going around in circles.

[@iindseycantrell912]

Not lying to my self. I have listened to hours and hours of different content of both of these men refuting Mormonism. They know all the skeletons hiding in Mormon doctrine. Trust me they were being generously gracious.

[@ERSQ001]

He was making good points if you cant see that then you are brainwashed.

[@TheCripeCrew]

I was a Mormon convert. The Mormons prey of the theologically weak because they don’t have the knowledge to refute Mormonism’s claims. Thankfully I started doing my own research and figured out it was all a big scam. Thank you for what you’re doing.

[@tonismith4214]

Really? I converted while I was studying biblical text in college. Had some pretty high standards for converting. Generalized claims about a large group of people are never good. Mormons, just like other denominations, are a part of the Christian fabric whether you agree or not, and they're the most Christian in my opinion.

[@mr400meter]

Except Mormons theologically are light years apart from other Christian denominations relating to the nature of God, who is Jesus, and the gospel.

[@jackal1115]

Amen. Never forget that it was God that brought you out of that into the light.

[@jackal1115]

@cindybin2001 how can you refute the fact that your own church leadership admits that the book of Abraham is a fraud and that Joseph smith could not read or translate Egyptian and that Deuteronomy 13, 18, Mathew 7, mathew 24 all give warnings that Joseph smith fits to a T?

[@andrewcurry3726]

I did the same as well brother, but with Oneness Pentecostalism(UPCI). Calvinism and church history really shook me when I started studying more. I was a youth leader and a missionary beliving the strawman that the Trinity is polytheism. Thank the Lord, He showed us both the truth. Having this backround makes apologetics very enjoyable. Thanks Jeff!

[@sp-vs7ui]

Thanks jeff ur Ministry changed my life

[@YeatzeeGuitar]

Your audio team needs some training, have them watch some videos on clipping and setting gain levels as well as compression/limiting on channels. The mic's seem to always be clipping (gain to high = clipping = voice gets distorted). You're using $400 mic's each, but all that money is a waste if the gain isn't set right. A little knowledge goes a long way!

[@gdiaz9689]

Thank you for going step by step on every misconception about the TRINITY. Definitely helped!

[@MsGhost87]

I know it's been 2 years but, hopefully this will help as well - Thinking of God as 3 demenional. Also, that he is God, how can we, as humans, even think to know him? Why wouldn't he be so amazing as a Holy Trinity God? It's so cool & something so amazing to think through. God Bless Brother 🙏🏼

[@thetoad7367]

@@MsGhost87 bot

[@richlisola1]

Great channel! Say have you folks at Apologia Church considered pasting links to specific points in your radio program? It’s long, which is fine, but sometimes folks don’t have the time to listen all at once. Little blue time stamped links might make the program more accessible in this busy life schedule we all seem engulfed in. God bless to you Jeff and all the other wonderful people at Apologia Church! I heard a wonderful endorsement of you Jeff from, ‘It’s Me Jesse.’ A lovely Christian sister’s KZbin channel. She is as equally dedicated as you all are to refuting Mormonism, sharing the Gospel, and rescuing people out of Mormonism.

[@iam_yirmeyahu1416]

Apologia Church... I love you guys. I respect you. I love what you do. I learn from you. Earlier in this podcast, I heard how you dealt with the young man’s issues regarding the Methodist Church. I am in the Methodist Church and I attend Church Camp. Those things he’s pointed out-I heard and seen. However, I’m a Christian before any denomination. I trust in Christ to work hard through my time there to give the Youth deep doctrinal truths. Now, I know you guys are Baptists. Reform Baptists-Calvinists. Lol I get it mixed up (I mean that in love). I don’t think it wise to group everyone in the Methodist Church in that category. I will stay Methodist. And you will stay Baptist. One day I would love to come right alongside you guys and talk with unbelievers, Mormons, etc. I’m practicing that now. But I don’t agree with or lean towards all those things Methodist do and the deepest theological ideals as I don’t lean fully towards Baptist/Calvinist ideals. Long story short, you have some out here (who just happen to be Baptist or Methodist) in the faith, fighting sin, the world’s ideals, and preaching the good news. So please don’t let it slip by but show love to the ones that are still preaching and showing love, even if the Methodist may minimally differ from you. With that said, I will still watch, support financially, and love you guys because you are doing a GREAT thing.

[@IamGreatsword]

Sadly, Jeremiah Phillips, Methodists are as apostate and heretical as the Metropolitan chvrch in San Francisco. All Rainbow and no Gospel. Most not all of course.

[@vibeauxssxuaebiv3489]

The thing is people and churches that identify as Methodist (or any denomination) do so because they share similar views to the Methodist denomination. The issue is the Methodist denomination has bad theology, and bad theology hurts people and obscures the truth of God, especially if it has a liberal bent (theologically liberal, not a reference to politics). If you can't bristle up and have issues with a denomination in the sense you describe, then you lose the ability to point out categorical issues that must be addressed. The exception doesn't prove the rule, and if someone continues identifying with a denomination, then it is absolutely fair to judge their views in a manner that assumes it to fall in line with the denomination they fall under. Especially if they do not separate themselves from that denomination in any way aside from merely claiming that not all people are uniform.

[@autumnlewis3154]

Jeff, in your response part 2, please include and respond to some of their comments in the 3 Mormons episode of the Cross. It could help represent their utter ignorance of the atonement/ grace.

[@Lglandorf6]

Well done. This really helped after the confusion of the debate with so much interruption and false statements.

[@Cry4Tanelorn]

THANK YOU for addressing Kwaku's poor understanding of the Trinity

[@scottdfsaf4997]

John Yelland how can you have a poor understanding of a fictional or made up concept. The trinity is a human construct due to their inability to understand how a godhead of three can be one in mind and purpose but separate beings. Scripture backs up that explanation but not a single scripture backs up God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit being the same being. Period.

[@Cry4Tanelorn]

See, you yourself are showing your poor understanding of not only the Holy Trinity but of Church history. Just ask yourself honestly, why would a council need to be held to determine once and for all whether Christ was an exalted creation of God or God Himself? This would only need to be debated if there was a lot of scriptural support for both, or at least seemingly so. The Council of Nicaea decided that God and Christ were indeed of the same substance, and that the subordinationist heresy of Arianism was unscriptural. The Church came to this decision under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, my friend. The scriptures are chalked FULL of support for Christ's deity, as well as that of the Holy Spirit. I definitely recommend you do some more research on this topic :)

[@jamesemerson4102]

@@scottdfsaf4997 Absolutely false. Wrong.

[@evavss333]

I am so thankful that this follow up video was made. I was so upset after listening to that debate. This gives it a bit of closure that I personally was seeking, of course the fight continues for our Lord. I have been watching and listening for about 3 years now, thank you for your time!

[@tosharethegospel2368]

Love you, guys and gal! I can't tell you how much I learn and have a desire to dive into the Word more and study history and doctrine. Bless y'all!

[@ScottBub]

To Share The Gospel if you want to study history it would be best to study something that you find in the history section of the library, not the mythology section. Because it obviously is NOT history. It is stories. Fairy tales.

[@OEMPlus]

quaku's usual response "nuh uh".

[@EastTactics]

I am a Mormon, and I’ve watched hours and hours of your material. I’ve also looked up everything you say that attempts to bash or dismantle the LDS church. And every single time I do any research and read the entirety of scriptures in the Bible and go to the source places for which you point and read them in context… You Have still not swayed me in anyway to discount the truth of LDS doctrine. I know My voice here is a needle in a haystack as your support comes almost solely from your anti-Mormon followers, so hopefully I don’t cause too much commotion here. I personally feel that the people that represent our church whether it be at the temple grounds or in your every day interviews. Even your interview with The gentleman from 3 Mormons. He does an OK job but of course like many make some grammatical errors or incorrect comments about our believes. It happens. Anyway I just want to say one thing that I find is an easy telltale sign that what you preach Is false is that you love to cherry pick verses from the Bible only to read amounts that suit your agenda. Here is a very potent example. At about the one 1:01:00 Area in your video here you and your friends decide to talk a lot about John 10 in Psalms 82. In John 10 Jesus is surrounded by a group of zealots who are giving him a hard time about his preaching in regards to the parable about us being sheep and he being the good shepherd. He tells them that he is one with heavenly father and the accuse him of calling himself God. He simply tells them after hearing this ”Why are you so shocked that I refer to myself as being God, after all you’ve already written in your law that I’ve said you are gods.” Jesus never said that what was written was false!! Just because these are zealots and unjust preachers does not mean that everything that was written is incorrect. It is very possible that that very point, That we are children of God, is true. In fact there are countless places in the Bible where it specifically says we are children of God including Psalms 82. So back to my point of how I feel you miss read the Scriptures or keep out of the reading words that dont suit your agenda. After you begin reading Psalms 82 you stop right before the most poignant and important verse that gives the most clarification. You dance around verse six and read it in a very negative tone voice, Even remove the word “children” and replace it with “son”. What gives you the right to interpret verse six as a negative connotation, Or to imply God is being sarcastic? If God intended verse six to be a negative connotation he would’ve instead been more clear and said I never said you were gods, but instead what he’s really saying is, “sure, I said you were gods, (because it’s true), that doesn’t mean you have the right to judge unjustly“ it should really read that way (And in a much more neutral tone voice) 6. I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Ironic Jeff would that part In such a negative tone, infusing his agenda. God saying yes I said you are gods, even the children of God… But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. I feel your interpretation is a major stretch to prevent this clear truth. So the fact that you would read those verses like that says a lot about your agenda in my opinion. Sure we have different interpretations of those scriptures but you have no right to say mine is wrong as it makes just as much sense as yours. It really makes more actually!

[@klarity1111]

These men know the Bible thoroughly, plus its cultural and historical background. They have studied it in its original languages. They are well grounded in theology. And they DO make a lot more sense than you.

[@EastTactics]

Klarity*11, Sorry, but I support my statement. And their obviously wrong? Just because a renown apologist says something doesn’t make it true, they’ve just been rooted in there inaccuracies for many years.

[@klarity1111]

Since I am not a Calvinist, I only watch Apologia videos when they are about Mormon issues. They have a huge knowledge of the Bible, but I believe strongly that their Calvinistic interpretation is wrong. I am interested in their Biblical understanding of why Mormonism is wrong.

[@EastTactics]

Clarity*11, I can relate to you in some degree. I too only watch Apologia videos so I can learn why they feel the Mormon Church is wrong. Only I do it because I know I can counter their points with confidence, and hopefully leave a comment or two preventing the unprepared LDS member who is unsure about our Cannon, or our church history, and prevent them from being lead away. And your right Calvinists are way off the mark... even if they had a correct interpretation of it. If your really interested in some counter play, and not just absorbing their prospective... when your viewing Apologia videos, do a quick search for key word "EastBlood" in the Comments and share your thoughts. Whats your biggest hangup with LDS doctrin?

[@beautifulfeetpreachingsc]

EastBlood - And just because a false prophet such as Joseph Smith says something does not make it true. How many failed prophecies did Joe have again? Even one disqualified him and thus how can you trust anything he has put forth? Until you can reconcile Joseph Smith being a false prophet the conversation cannot go any further.

[@JQHNDi]

Watched the entire debate and this response. As a Christian who is passionate about apologetics, I cannot tell you how helpful this whole debate and response are to those wanting to strengthen their faith in the nature of God. Christians who wish to understand the trinity better, WATCH this and the preceding debate. Christians who understand the trinity but wish to be reminded why it is so important to define it accurately and correctly? WATCH this and the preceding debate. I cannot stop ranting how important discussions and corrections like this are Thank you Apologia Studios for defending the faith and being Gods instrument for guiding fellow believers to the truth of God.

[@JQHNDi]

The Preacher You received undeniable witness that BoM was true?

[@ScottBub]

John Dominy the entire debate was a waste of time. Appeals to the Bible and faith are both silly reasons to believe in anything.

[@srilankangenie]

I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Happy to engage in discussion with you. I don’t believe the trinity is Christian. No I don’t believe trinity and duality are the same. I am a convert from Catholicism and no one has written more about the Trinity than St. Augustine.

[@johnrowley310]

Well, Trust in Joe the convicted con man for your salvation. I hear he wants to invite you to his lake party...

[@inTruthbyGrace]

you just can't argue with someone who operates with such a fractured intellectual integrity...

[@PatristicArcana]

Amen! (We're talkin' about Derbin, right?)

[@bobvukich25]

Yes, White and Durbin have a highly fractured intellectual integrity.

[@ScottBub]

inTruthbyGrace all of them have fractured intellectual integrity. None of them think logically from the absolute beginning. Starting where we all have no knowledge of god and then examine the evidence to see if it points to a god. Which it absolutely does not!

[@PatristicArcana]

As per the closing statement in this video, will Jeff/Apologia be taking the video down given the demonstrably false statement after the 37:00 mark that the 2nd century Christians believed the same thing about predestination that the Reformers did? E.g., “But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that people do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each by free choice acts rightly or sins . . . . But since God made the race of angels and men in the beginning with free will, in eternal fire they will justly suffer the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made-to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there was also power to turn to both.” (Justin Martyr, ca. 155, 'Second Apology' 7, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 56:78-79) “And just as with men who have power to choose good or evil-for you would not honour the virtuous and punish evildoers if vice and virtue were not within their free choice-some are found zealous for what they are entrusted with by you, and others remiss, so it is with these angels too: some remained at the task for which they were created and to which they were appointed by God (for they had received free will from God), while others acted wantonly towards their own nature and their charge” (Athenagoras, ca. 177, 'Embassy for the Christians' 24, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 23:62) “He ‘breathed into his face the breath of life,’ [Genesis 2:7] so that the man became like God in inspiration as well as in frame. So he was free, and his own master, having been made by God in order to be master of everything on earth.” (Irenaeus, ca. 190, 'Proof of the Apostolic Preaching' 11, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 16:54)

[@nicolaslosito5735]

That is hardly an exhaustive list. Of course not ALL believers of the time believed it but there also those who did.

[@nicolaslosito5735]

Secondly, the last quote is taken out of context because he is speaking of Adam in his prefallen state which hardly applies to us after the fall.

[@PatristicArcana]

Space limitation on KZbin comments literally prevents me from giving an exhaustive list, and hence my use of exempli gratia. And no, there were no orthodox 2nd century Christians who taught the Reformed perspective of predestination. All of the pre-Nicene Christians universally taught libertarian free-will, and predestination according to God's foreknowledge of how each individual will use said free-will. No exception. I'm sure that you have no idea what the context of Irenaeus' statement is. Anyone who's actually read his writings is aware that he taught libertarian free-will as applying to all men and not just Adam. Here's another example: "man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect like to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself the cause to himself, that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff." (Irenaeus, ca. 180, 'Against Heresies' 4:4, in 'Ante-Nicene Fathers' 1:466) Consequently, by Durbin's own standards, his video is, "filled with misrepresentations and false witness," of early Christian thought. He apparently has, "no concern for the truth itself," when it comes to patristics, and is, "willing to lie about what people believe in order to make [his] point," and therefore, "is not to be trusted." So let us see if he takes this video down, or lives by a double-standard.

[@andrewsargent340]

Even Augustine the supposed pre Reformed thinker upheld libertarian free will. The double Pre destination of reformed. Theology is not biblical. And didn't develop until the reformation. Durbin is frankly being dishonest here.

[@oliverdownunder9397]

Kwaku refuses to be wrong....it’s the same defensive behaviour you always get from mormons. They live in a club and just ignore any fact shown to them that contradicts their bizarre beliefs.

[@EkonRekon]

As a former Mormon you would do better to interview me. I know what Mormons need to hear. The way a debate goes is like a sporting event. But with a debate both sides can announce victory. It doesn't accomplish anything. To turn hearts I invite you to reach out to me. Thank you

[@EkonRekon]

@Shane Stephen that's really Christian of you.. meanwhile I pray diligently for my family in SLC to be touched by the Lord!! And if anyone knows what they need to hear it's someone like me. I guess you think arguing in circles is doing the Lords' work.. you will know them by their fruits, so run along Rabbi.. Christians don't need you

[@EkonRekon]

Run along Rabbi, you have no respect or clue how God works with people. learn to spell also jerk

[@yodasoja2011]

@Sheep Dog, we all agree God turns the hearts. But that doesn't mean you can just sit idly by acting like you have no calling. You are called to make disciples of all nations. (Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19‭-‬20 ESV) Also: Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. Colossians 3:23‭-‬24 ESV So you should do everything with excellence, for the one true and perfect God. If you refuse to discern what forms of evangelism are most effective, you're just as bad as the Westboro Baptists that preach with so much hate. That is not the standard of excellence our Lord calls us to. They would defend their hate with the same thing you said: Only God can turn hearts. Please repent from your idle spirit and your discouragement towards a brother in Christ's willingness to give his testimony to further the kingdom of God.

[@zagdog5642]

+Shane Stephen lol how mad are you

[@EkonRekon]

@@yodasoja2011 who needs enemies when you've got fake Christians?

[@distantgalaxymusic1447]

He has no doctrinal books from the last 2000 years because if he read them he would be excommunicated. He should read Matthew Henry’s commentary’s to start with. It would blow his mind about how moronic what the Mormon Church taught him about Biblical Theology.

[@PatristicArcana]

You've got it backwards. Latter-day Saints don't receive excommunication nor any other form of church discipline for reading publications outside of their Church. On the contrary, they promote education on these subjects in general. Perhaps you're thinking of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[@distantgalaxymusic1447]

PatristicArcana Really? I’d love to challenge Kwaku to read the unapproved bible that Dr. White gave him and pick up a copy of Matthew Henry’s condensed commentaries and make a list of 5 books on Christian Doctrines written by people who are now deceased and walk up to his Bishops high council and say “ I’ve been reading this bible and studying these texts at the advice of a PhD Theologian and known Calvinist, and I’d like you to answer my questions about the gross inconsistencies in LDS doctrine.” He’s in big trouble.

[@PatristicArcana]

You mean that you'd like to put words into Kwaku's mouth? That's an interesting fantasy, and all, but it doesn't coincide with the reality of the lack of Latter-day Saint restrictions on what their members can read.

[@theladygunsmith]

@@PatristicArcana This isn't true. Part of my family are Mormons and they will not read anything outside the church publications. They even warned me against it when I tried to get them to read something else. I was told satan puts out material to confuse people. You can read anything and the Holy Spirit will give you discernment. 1 Thessalonians 5:21

[@PatristicArcana]

@@@theladygunsmith What you're talking about is an isolated instance. What I'm talking about is (1) the official stance of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and (2) the normative practices of members thereof. Again, Latter-day Saints simply aren't restricted by their Church regarding what reading material they have access to.

[@mr400meter]

I heard one of the Latter Day Saints say all the apostles died... According to D&C 7, the apostle John is still alive. So I'm guessing he never read that part of Doctrine and Covenants.

[@rayma66]

The Book of Mormon also says that 3 Nephites are still alive. So I guess there couldn't have been a complete apostasy.

[@bryanjacobs1423]

Stream starts at 4:11

[@soul1380]

Kawaku is very difficult to listen to. He's very arrogant, lacking courtesy and humility.

[@jordanjackson7079]

So you agree with those two sickos on the holocaust?

[@elizabethking5523]

Agreed!!🤣

[@I_discovered_civilization]

Stephanie Smith Agreed.

[@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx]

​@@jordanjackson7079yes

[@grantasay]

When you consider Mormon Jesus is actually Lucifer then it all makes sense. The pieces fit.

[@Pharm40]

Instead of double teaming basically a Mormon teenager. Why don’t you debate a latter day saint who holds the same degree of education as you do. I thought your debate was very unfair.

[@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx]

kwaku was notified beforehand that James was gonna also be there, and kwaku agreed, so that's cap

[@fwanson]

Jeff and team, here's the Talmage exegesis of Psalm 82:6 that you reference in passing in this video: “Divinely Appointed Judges Called 'Gods.' - In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Ex. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin darkened minds.” -- James Talmage, "Jesus the Christ", p. 501; www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-28?lang=eng

[@mr400meter]

Beast mode!!!

[@PatristicArcana]

Here's some additional exegesis: “'God has taken His place in the council of the gods, and in the midst of the gods He holds judgment.' [Psalms 82:1] He is speaking of the Father and the Son, and of those who received the filial adoption [cf. Romans 8:15] . . . . Of what gods [is He God]? Of those of whom He said, I have said, ‘You are gods, sons of the Most High.’ [Psalms 82:6] Of those, namely, who have received the grace of filial adoption” (Irenaeus, 'Against the Heresies' 3:6:1, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 64:39) “it will be impossible to admit the existence of another god, since no one is permitted to possess anything of God. ‘In that case,’ you say, ‘we do not possess anything of God either.’ On the contrary, we do possess something of Him, and we shall do so, but by receiving it from Himself, not from ourselves. For we shall even be gods, if we deserve to be those of whom He pronounced: 'I have said Ye are gods,' [Psalms 82:6] and, 'God stood in the congregation of gods,' [Psalms 82:1] but by His grace, not by a property of our own, since it is He alone who can make gods.” (Tertullian, ca. 202, 'Treatise Against Hermogenes' 5:3-4, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 24:33)

[@dougc4264]

Hi Jeff can you share the contact info of the book maker that made the Bible that was gifted to the young Mormon? Thank you

[@selinaogorman8380]

Kwaku am sorry he was so rude and disrespectful and definitely lack the patience and love so dr White and Jeff had the spirit of truth Kwaku wasn't fully prepared.

[@klarity1111]

Even though I know that Mormonism is crap, I felt sad for Kwaku. Mormons should theologically train the people who represent them.

[@mr400meter]

Did Joseph smith translate by the gift and power of God or by the same peep stone he used to attempt to dig up buried treasure with?

[@klarity1111]

Peep stone. The Bible says NO to using these.

[@mr400meter]

www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng My question was loaded btw

[@mr400meter]

Have you read the gospel topic essays on LDS.org Cindybin?

[@robmullin1128]

The problem with Jeff and Jame’s debate with Kwaku is that they completely gained up on him. Jeff made this video because he felt as though he needed to justify is actions.Otherwise why was it so important to post a “ follow up” video regarding a college student he had on his show?

[@SamM-lv8hr]

I think the bigger problem was that Kwaku was openly hostile to people who were pretty patiently trying to explain where he was mistaken in his understanding. They didn't have time to attack Kwaku's faith, they were busy spoon feeding him a basic understanding of terms.

[@firepower7654]

So let's start with the last video....My question is, why was Kwaku picked to represent the LDS (no offense to Kwaku)? You have on one hand, "Dr" White (quotes are because I question all people with degrees from unaccredited universities. I understand why they refuse to accept accreditation, but without a universally accepted base line standard, we don't know what those degrees actually mean) who apparently has attended various schools and written several books. Now you pair him with some kid, and let's make no mistake about it....he is a kid, who either is a recent grad of BYU or still a student. Seems a bit of a well, set up, if you will. An author/"Dr" vs a kid with a wacky KZbin channel that tries mostly to explain Mormon culture. I don't think it would have been that difficult to pull up any of the BYU professor rosters and found someone of the LDS faith willing to talk. A small search would have produced many with their own PhD degrees from Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc, etc who may have been a little more interesting to talk with.

[@firepower7654]

Jesse....I'm not arguing that he hasn't put in a lot of work. All work doesn't necessarily mean productive work. Many theological universities are not accredited due to the fact these universities don't want to be subjected to the rules or intrusiveness of the accreditation boards. I get it. However, that makes me also wonder how one actually can tell what is a "valid" degree from such a school when the curriculum of one theological university may be NOTHING like the one across the street. If no one can agree or guarantee what even the base line is of that degree, how can such a degree be really respected?

[@firepower7654]

And who judges that amount of work? Does the quality of work have anything do with the equation, or just sear number of classes or papers written are the key? If the theological university across the street requires X amount more course work towards a degree, does that invalidate another theological universities particular degree program? No set standard produces no set results.

[@firepower7654]

OK....So the title in front of his name is meaningless, and we should only judge someone by their works. I can see that. There are colleges that if you send them in a check, you get a degree. There are many uneducated very smart people out there who have valid insight and knowledge, so you do have a point. So my next question is, why are so many people in this comment section rushing to throw that title in front of his name if we aren't to judge him by that title but his works?

[@firepower7654]

Well, he's done work. What work he has done we don't know. He may be knowledgeable in the subject of theology, but how knowledgeable compared to another theological university grad with a similar or lesser degree, I don't know. Degrees can be handed out like tic-tacs. That is why an accreditation system was set up in universities. A base line is established and expected from all universities participating in said system. If one sets up a system that refuses to participate in that accreditation system or another such system agreed upon by a specialty school (theology, for example), how do we know what a degree bestowed upon someone means? How do we know that White isn't just naturally a smart guy who did his own research, gained noting in research skills or knowledge from his university experience and just accepted the title? I can go online right now and buy a Phd and insist everyone call me dr. My ability to write books would not be a factor in that online purchase. Maybe this is why White has said he is in the process of getting a degree from a South African university that is accredited.

[@cdowis]

>>why was Kwaku picked to represent the LDS He picked himself. He admitted that he does not represent the church., only himself.

[@victoriaeaton1359]

The trinity is talking about the The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. John 1 teaches us all and mathematics do explain it. So we read that John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and Word was God (Word=God)." Then in John 1:14 it states that And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, fully of grace and truth (Word=God=Jesus). Isaiah 7:14 states The Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel." Immanuel means "God with us". Immanuel was changed into Jesus, after further research, letting us know that it represent Jehovah's salvation...John 14:26 states "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send [in my name] he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (In his name, which is Jesus, Word=God=Jesus=Holy Ghost). Holy Ghost occurred after the death of Jesus. John 10:30 states "I and my Father are one." Enough said out of the mouth of Christ. KJV version

[@rosealexander9007]

I wonder if people realize that humans have three parts. We have a soul, we have a spirit, and we have flesh. So I wonder if that's what God meant when he said he made us in his image.

[@purplesilverlight]

What's the difference between soul and spirit

[@rosealexander9007]

@@purplesilverlight soul is our personality it’s made up of who we are as a person inside our flesh. Our spirit is eternal. And that leaves our body when we die.

[@ScubaDude_Sg]

Hi guys cld u pls address the archeological evidence he quoted to support his stance on d viability of Mormonism ?

[@chrisjjimenez1098]

Yes, I haven’t not seen a lot of debates with Jehovah’s Witnesses with Dr James Whites in a long time. I have friends that are in this cult and it just as frustrating to have a dialogue with them just as I seat here watching the content with the Mormons. What you think Jeff could we walk through the cults together to get a better understanding?

[@chaseorosco9017]

I would recommend to you Kingdom of the Cults by Walter Martin. I'm currently reading it right now, and Martin spends a significant amount of the first half of the book on the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[@chrisjjimenez1098]

I have the book....

[@southernbawselady7092]

Chris Jimenez - Yes, JW's and Mormons are twins religions!!...Check out this MUST SEE drop the mic 🎤 video that proves this point!! kzbin.info/www/bejne/eWSvnGt-aJJgd8k

[@strykerdawn1]

This is so good guys, and one Shelogion (love you Joy, and Summer lol!!). Praise God for this opportunity for y'all to do this publicly! These are great conversations and faith building. I'll continue to pray for you all and share. God bless!

[@strykerdawn1]

And I spelled that totally wrong lol. Sheologians! Love the podcast. Y'all say and explain biblical truths every week and I don't miss an episode. Praise God for working through you ladies!

[@j.huffhumble4281]

Two expert veterans against a young naive new LDS convert ??!! Epic fail

[@andrewmiller7815]

Right

[@ArgothaWizardWars]

So what?

[@specialk7715]

I’m really confused about THEIR “trinity.” When they claim to worship only one god. You’ll say to them.. ‘there’s only one God’ and they’ll say.. ‘Yes amen, we only worship one God of this earth..’ But when they refer to their trinity, they say there is 3 separate beings, 3 separate persons?? Doesn’t that make it 3 separate gods??? Help me out here please..

[@chaseorosco9017]

It's really confusing. I've been trying to dialogue with Mormons over this issue for some time. There's a lot of inconsistency on this part. From my experience, Mormons use "God" interchangeably. Sometimes what they mean by "God" is the single purpose of the three beings. Then other times they mean "God" to describe a distinct, exalted man apart from the divine purpose.

[@klarity1111]

Back in the 70's, the Mormon missionaries came right out and said that the Godhead was made up of three separate gods. Then it was confirmed at church and in their literature. Nowadays, though, they are trying to hide the fact that they believe this, so they can gain converts more easily.

[@jennief7114]

Calvinism also changes who Christ/God is. Christ said, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" He did not say whosoever is elected, thus Calvinist basically are calling Christ a liar. There is not an account in Genesis where man is cursed with the total inability to come to God. Again, according to Calvinists, they are saying God was not completely honest when describing the curses men would now endure. I could go on and on, will not, but will make the last point. God commands that all men repent, Acts 17:30. Why would God give us a commandment that could not be fulfilled? If God threatens punishment, it implies the ability to comply and an ability to not comply. Thus the argument that God did give us free will to choose. By the way, why does the Apologia Church website not mention they are Calvinists?

[@cynthiaerickson3646]

Genesis,the fall of man,God put up a barrier between Him and man

[@jennief7114]

@@cynthiaerickson3646 Christ took that barrier away.

[@jennief7114]

@@cynthiaerickson3646 But choice was taken away. Genesis was all about choice.

[@PROJECT.LUKE.ONE.75]

Through FaceBook's non profit fundraiser I wanted to support #EndAbortionNow but couldn't find it. Any recommendations?

[@ApologiaStudios]

Thank you! Go to endabortionnow.com. you can do it there.

[@PROJECT.LUKE.ONE.75]

Apologia Studios Yes, I was hoping to include my facebook friends as well though. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the birthday fundraisers that they do? Try involving yourselves there (on facebook) within the non profit search tab. How this is done? i'm not sure.

[@joe_tiger]

Excellent debate, hard to listen to, but I enjoyed the dialogue.

[@bryan922]

Jeff, would it be biblical to compare the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to mind, body, and soul unrestricted by space, time and matter?

[@j.reesebradley4771]

What do you do when you see a spaceman? Park your car, man.

[@j.reesebradley4771]

somewheretheheartis me too. 😂

[@aservantofJEHOVAH7849]

Psalms83:18KKB"That men may know that thou,whose name ALONE is JEHOVAH,art the MOST HIGH over all the earth." Note please there is but one named JEHOVAH. Note also that this one is the MOST HIGH. Therefore if your God is associated with two equals he is not JEHOVAH.

[@Marie-pc7ch]

I'm a former Mormon. I listened to this when I was falling asleep. I''ll admit that I didn't fully get the trinity and what's actually right or wrong, so I have to look it up, as my former religion certainly didn't follow what the Bible say.

[@daric_]

I've used the example of solid, liquid and vapor water to show categories, but not the Triune God. The 3 phases of water are the same in chemical composition but different in phase. Since Mormons often don't understand categories, this can be useful to show that some things can be the same in one category and different in another category without causing a contradiction. The 3 phases of water is not a good analogue for the Triune God, however. Teaching them about categories helps them to understand that having a God who is 1 in being (1st category: being/essence) and 3 in persons (2nd category: persons) does not cause a logical or mathematical contradiction (as Kwaku attempted to prove).

[@thePickinPilgrim]

Daric Not that God is an egg (lol), but I use the egg as illustration for my kids to understand. An egg consists of the shell, the white and the yoke. The yoke is not the white, the white is not the shell, and the shell is not the yoke. But all three are equally the egg. My son still claims the yoke shouldn't be part of the egg. Much like many deny Jesus as part of God. 😂

[@Applest2oApples]

Destiny Theall except when you crack the egg and throw away the shell, you are *not* throwing away the egg. You are only throwing away the shell of the egg. So, no, the parts of the egg are not all equally the egg.

[@MarsRestorations]

That's partialism Patrick!!!

[@ptrd]

Thanks for pointing that out. I took comment down because I don't want to misrepresent our Holy God in any way. I do need to rework that description. Have a good day and God bless you in Jesus Name.

[@ebenezercunningham2169]

I'm remembering a cartoon right now. What was it called, if you are quoting it?

[@MarsRestorations]

@@ebenezercunningham2169 it's Donal and Connell from Lutheran Satire the title of the video is "Bad Analogies".

[@ebenezercunningham2169]

@@MarsRestorations haha now I remember! Thanks

[@ptrd]

@@ebenezercunningham2169 very talented! Why did you stop posting videos?

[@dralgarza]

To Jeff: As a Jewish believer in Yeshua-Jesus as my Messiah and someone who knows and studies the Hebrew Bible, you are mistaken to say that God does not have a form like a man whom he created to look like, meaning himself. God does not have a physical body like the one he fashioned from the dust of the ground. But his form is as a man. That is clear from the Hebrew texts and language. Secondly, your John 1:18 is deeply flawed in comparison to the OT where God did appear as three men and continued to appear as such throughout the Hebrew OT. John is NOT saying what you are trying to make him say in verse 18. I am not agreeing with the Mormon but some truth is between his thoughts. You are still using Walter Martin's outdated arguments regarding this matter and you need to move away from that and into what we know now regarding the Hebrew. I would love to have a peaceful discussion on this topic with you, Jeff. If you are willing. Shalom.

[@quacks2much]

I saw the debate, and it was like the blind leading the blind. Neither one could see their own flaws in logic but recognized some of the flaws in each other's logic.

[@robmullin1128]

quacks2much TRUTH!

[@bcm1621]

​@@robmullin1128vague statements are meaningless.

[@lizicadumitru9683]

I heard Kwaku call Christ the only begotten of God. Now if Christ and "Satan" are brothers (admitted by their theology) wouldn't that make "Satan" or Lucifer a begotten son of God as well, making the statement that Jesus Christ is the only begotten of God erroneous?

[@RJA68]

Calvinism is the most wicked, vile, and detestable and unloving man made doctrine that is has been and is being taught. To quote Dave Hunt, "what love is this?" and we can also ask, "Is God all loving?" According to Calvinism, there are two kinds of calls (general and effectual), and two kinds of sinners (the predestined ones for heaven, the reprobates that are predestined to hell) and two kinds of elect. So, let's see, God will waste His time judging the lost for their works and not having their name in the book of life (REV. 20), all because He did not choose them and because of divine determinism? That is utter and complete non sensensical and exegetically untenable. It destroys the character and love of God. Why would He take the time to judge the lost reprobates and at the same time, hold them accountable for something that had no choice in choosing? Why does God commend so many in Scripture for choosing Him and condemn so many for not choosing Him, if the Calvinist systematic is true???

[@beanteam2217]

I would actually say Calvinism isn’t really man centered at all

[@PesquisasMormonas]

7:45 I don't understand. These people know so much of the Bible and are against abortion? In the Bible God teaches how to abort, and when to do it!

[@PesquisasMormonas]

Abortion is not murdering babies because fetuses are not babies, they're fetuses

[@PesquisasMormonas]

@Tim just Tim A pretty freaking weird human if I may say so. If that's the thing, we should call eggs "chickens"

[@adamt1914]

If I can be a father a son an uncle a brother a cousin... Then why couldn't God be father son and holy spirit. 👼

[@UbWanKinoby66]

NoFearX, that's considered Modalism (one god/3 modes); old-school heresy. Scripture clearly discloses God as the One infinite eternal Being consisting of three distinct persons; The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[@adamt1914]

@@UbWanKinoby66 I understand... I was simply being sarcastic in a way, because it's odd how people can question how he can be all three, and it was a way that I've heard it explained when I was younger meaning if any of us can be many things like I had said why is it so hard for people to understand that he is the father Son and Holy Spirit

[@UbWanKinoby66]

Gotcha.

[@logostruth1868]

+NoFearX The only main issue with your analogy (while I understand your main point) is that you would take up those roles/modes sequentially - you would not be a father at age 10 (for example) but later in your life. You may have a brother who is born several years later. The three Persons in the Being of God I do see as three roles God uses to engage with His creation (eg. a Bridge/Mediator and a Helper), however, they are co-equal and co-eternal. Perhaps some will see my use of "different roles" as 'modalism,' and thus heresy. But just like light is seen as a wave and as particles, does not change the source of the wave/particle - the light has one essence and form, described in two ways that are equally valid. Wrapping one's head around this with a neat, nice analogy (within our limited minds) can be problematic. If someone has an even better analogy to help in Trinitarian apologetics, I'm all ears.

[@adamt1914]

@@logostruth1868 again the main point is the possibility of what I can be compared to how people question how could God be three

[@mannamanoah405]

Around 44:45 they discuss how modalism. I agree that modalism is wrong, then they go on to say that we should never use an earthly example to try to explain the tri-unity on God. I have an example that I was given & I want advice as to whether or not I should use it. I heard a minister say that this example is limited in that the difference between God & humans is that he always existed but the analogy is this " In a Family you can have a Husband , a wife & children even though there is more than one person, they make up ONE FAMILY ". since the "i-m" on the word elohim is plural in hebrew it seemed to make pretty good sense when I heard that example.

[@canthandlethetruth2055]

Mormonism is like network marketing pyramid scheme.

[@souldiegirl]

Kwaku's mathematics regarding the Trinity are wrong. He says 1+1+1=3, when actually the correct formula is 1x1x1=1

[@jdub6909]

Kwaku will probably stay a LDS because he is famous as one. He would have to give up everything.

[@PatristicArcana]

Is that also why Durbin and White will stay Calvinists?

[@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx]

​@@PatristicArcanano we are reformed because we are right

[@PatristicArcana]

Is that kind of circular reasoning common among the Reformed?

[@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx]

@@PatristicArcana we are correct in our humble objectively correct opinion :)

[@Originaldoctrine]

The format of this presentation is that Jeff Durbin does almost all the talking and the other three nod their heads and unitedly agree with everything he’s saying. I get it!

[@haroldbailey9011]

Could you guys PLEASE answer these . Is the clip at the beginning saying, “Non rockaboatus” lol? And where is that clip from?

[@micahclouse]

From Walter Martin, author of The Kingdkm of the Cults. Hes saying Christians suffer from the 'disease' of not wanting to rock the boat.

[@haroldbailey9011]

@@micahclouse WOW! I’ve been asking that question for a few years on apologia video uploads haha. Thank you so much brother!!

[@haroldbailey9011]

@@micahclouse is that the context or the exact quote we’re hearing? Sorry, but was wondering what is he exactly saying before “I don’t wanna rock the boat, I wanna sink it”

[@micahclouse]

@@haroldbailey9011 I'm not sure which sermon it is from exactly. If you look up apologia radio and Walter Martin in KZbin I think they listen to one of his sermons and review it. The quote might be from that sermon they review. Martin, more of less, wanted to sink the fair weather, cause no trouble Christians who let heresy and wickedness into church of Jesus Christ.

[@crysis_averted]

Kwaku made many assertions with a lot of confidence, but no evidence. He would continually assert there was so much proof for his position, but not actually provide it beyond vague references. Unfortunately, this technique actually sways many uninformed people. It's a favorite technique of conmen to try and groom potential victims. After Kwaku's self-professed lack of a solid theological upbringing it is no surprise he was so easily swayed to the LDS church.

[@johndoe-ln4oi]

39:38- Did you really just say that? Methodism didn't come from NY. It came from John Wesley in England in the 1730's, nearly 100 years and a continent away from Joseph Smith. Yes, Wesley and his brother, Charles, did evangelize in the US, but to compare Methodism to Mormonism, or tie them to some shared founding is completely ignorant.

[@PatristicArcana]

And if they go that simple fact wrong regarding another Protestant denomination with an opposing tradition regarding soteriology, then imagine how much more they're likely to get wrong regarding the Latter-day Saints.

[@johndoe-ln4oi]

PatristicArcana- In fairness, that wasn't Jeff, but Jeff did not correct or rebut that uninformed comment.

[@Jamo12]

So if the trinity is 3 separate persons, but one Being, how is a perfect relationship different than that? The difference between ‘person’ and ‘being’ seems really difficult to make clear to the average person. If by definition there is nothing like God, how do you explain it to somebody in a simple to understand way?

[@seancristea8152]

“Logos” is the logic of God. The scripture reveals the mind of God, and we must use the worldview of God to understand Him. QUACKU does not understand the epistemology of propositional revelation.

[@SofiasHandmadeHappiness]

What solid materials should one read today to fully understand and teach their teens the Trinity?

[@tylerlions8134]

"little little brigham can't you see" - Luke LOL i love you that was so funny xD

[@Fisherstrong6]

Mormonism is interesting to me because of the inconsistency of ancient history. I think it’s pretty conclusive that the Americas were re-discovered and biblical people were indeed traveling back-and-forth well before the time of Columbus and the other great explorers. All through gods providence

[@aservantofJEHOVAH7849]

John8:50KJV" And I seek not mine own glory,there is one that seeketh and judgeth." Either Jesus went about attempting to persuade his fellow Jews that he was the God of Israel or he did not seek his own glory the both things could not be simultaneously true I choose to take my Lord at his word.

[@michaelgonzalez1824]

Dr. White has studied (I thought) the archeology of the Bible, why didnt he refute some of the statements on the reliability of scripture when the guest said it had been corrupted ?

[@littlebigband2010]

If you think Brigham was racist just look into Christian Discovery Doctrine. Manifest Destiny. Doctrine. Trinity is Pagan.

[@monkizaki1440]

I said it then, I'll say it again. A fool will be lead by pride. That guy rejected and considered every argument by Dr. White as false without even: 1) listening to Dr. White's entire argument, and 2) by saying all of his evidence is wrong.. Without knowing or reading about Dr. White's evidence. His pride will lead him towards condemnation, and with tears in my heart, there is nothing one can do with the hardened heart of a fool.

[@jjweller2797]

I love Apologia Radio. I listen as often as I can and have benefitted so much. Apologia has inspired me to stay close to the scriptures and has helped me to grasp the Trinity more clearly. Apologia has inspired me to hold the Bible as the one source of truth at all costs. Apologia has taught me the worth of presuppositional Christian thought. Great response to the debate. Thank you for your ministry. I have a few comments that I hope you will take to heart. I hope you will avoid making loose comments on the last three hundred years of church history from now on. In the last few weeks, two members of the panel have made ridiculous claims about movements and figures from the two Great Awakenings. These comments were quick but inaccurate. Be sure to use the same acumen when speaking of history as you seek to use when opening the scriptures. In this episode, one claimed that Methodism was born in the mid-1800s in a New York area where many cults were born. This was spoken as a strike on the classical Methodist movement (apparently). This is a great and embarrassing error. Methodism was born in the 1700s at Oxford among John Wesley, Charles Wesley, George Whitefield, and others. Only later did John Wesley become the respected leader of "the People Called Methodists." The modern Methodist movement is not even a shadow of what it was in their day. At the end of his life, renowned Calvinistic evangelist George Whitefield said the following of the Methodist movement: "My brother Wesley acted wisely. The souls that were awakened under his ministry he joined in Class, and thus preserved the fruit of his labor. This I neglected, and my people are a rope of sand." In Whitefield's own estimation, Wesley's converts had grown in grace while his own had backslidden. (Yes, I mean God's converts through Wesley/Whitefield, don't worry). A large percentage of converts in the 1700s and 1800s were born again under Methodism's simple, practical gospel preaching and organized discipleship efforts. Even Charles Spurgeon came to faith through the influence of a simple Methodist preacher. After sitting many years under complex preaching, the simple Methodist gave an elementary call to "look to Christ," and Spurgeon was born from above. Spurgeon later said of John Wesley: "Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley." Please remember that most people do not do their own research. If you make false and negative claims about church history, the people will believe you. When they hear the name "John Wesley," they will think, 1. "Apologia inferred that Methodism sprang from an area of strong cult activity. 2. John Wesley was recognized as the leader of the Methodist movement. 3. Therefore, John Wesley must not have been a faithful Christian, evangelist, and preacher, but a sort of religious fanatic that led an ungodly movement." You know it's true -- especially for cage-stage Calvinists who tend to cling to whatever criticism they can find. Whenever someone says, "John Wesley said...", they will automatically shut their ears. Let's be honest. Be careful. You have a large audience. You can easily spread misinformation and heap dishonor upon men and movements which God Himself has honored. It would be unfortunate if you spread misinformation while rebuking 3 Mormons for doing the same (regarding the Trinity etc). It would be TRAGIC if you did this regarding some of the greatest moves and men of God in history. By all means, engage historic movements, preachers, their teachings, and the (often radically different) teachings of their progeny. But do so clearly and in a way that will help others to see both their strengths and weaknesses. Please continue to fight historic heresies, engage the cults, preach the gospel, and labor to "end abortion now!" But be careful to use perfect acumen when talking about recent Church history. You guys are awesome. I'm thankful for God's ministry through you. Keep using your voice. God bless you.

[@harley6659]

I found it interesting that he accused our brothers of using a European interpretation (don’t remember the EXACT wording) but those Europeans interpreters if you want to call them that based themselves on historic interpretation which was explicitly middle eastern/African/near eastern

[@07millertravis]

This guy has a fundamental misunderstanding of most of the verses he cites. He interprets them how he needs in order for his ideology to be seen as favorable. But upon diving into the text surrounding his statements and viewing other similar verses or circumstances its obvious he's not seeing the whole picture. Therefore, take what he says with a grain of salt and look into things yourself. I've disproved most of what he's said and I'm only 30 min in.

[@chaseorosco9017]

Jeff, I think it's important to note that not only did you not get a chance to discuss Psalm 82 (which I was disappointed about) but if I recall correctly, Kwaku was one breath from starting to read Psalm 82 and he suddenly started a rabbit hole off into another subject. He never even read the psalm that he was so confident supported his view!

[@mr400meter]

You're absolutely right. I think they will have him Skype in perhaps next time

[@tonydouglas9532]

I find it interesting that Jeff focuses so much on debating Mormons, but he doesn’t seem to debate any other faiths (Catholicism, Islam, etc)

[@tjaguila1925]

You find that interesting? Why? He has a focus in one area and you see that as a problem? Do you think that because he doesn't debate Muslims he's somehow sympathetic to them?

[@tonydouglas9532]

TJ Águila I think he can specialize in dialoguing with Mormons. That’s fine. He is well versed in their theology. However, he doesn’t seem to speak to anyone with credentials. That is a problem. The Mormon side isn’t fairly represented with someone that isn’t a scholar. I think he doesn’t debate or dialogue with other faiths because they are more evidence based in my opinion. Any scholar that is of another faith would hold their own and make him look challenged, and I don’t think he would he would like that.

[@PatristicArcana]

I find it interesting that he focuses on debating Latter-day Saints who are only half his age.

[@tonydouglas9532]

PatristicArcana Doesnt seem fair.

[@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx]

then James white would be your guy, he debates catholics, Muslims, Mormons and all that

[@danielburnett1360]

Thank you!⛪

[@so2829]

I had a hard time with this debate because no one would let the other answer completely without interrupting them. And that was on both sides. Next debate should have some kind of moderator that permits equal time. That being said, I applaud you for your patience. Keep on defending the gospel while helps equips the rest of us to do the same.

[@jakev5408]

The Trinity has been Debunked! Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 2 Peter 1: 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. 31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. AMEN

[@fayelewis5476]

Jesus said your sins would not be forgiven if you did not believe He was God. John 8:19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

[@jakev5408]

Faye Lewis Review my post again “The Trinity has been debunked” If Jesus said that he can not bear witness of himself or his testimony is not true. Why call Jesus a liar? Even that jesus whom you claim.

[@fayelewis5476]

@@jakev5408 God bore testimony of Jesus. Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. 9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore (Jesus) God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.” Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.” God is the first and the last. Isaiah 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. The first and the last died and rose again. Revelation 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

[@jakev5408]

Faye Lewis And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46 So According to your belief there’s multiple Gods since Jesus is God and yet he’s calling out to his God. Nice! And If he’s the One only God then why was he helpless and forsaken by his God??

[@fayelewis5476]

@@jakev5408 Jesus said your sins would not be forgiven if you did not believe He was God. John 8:19 So they were saying to Him, “Where is Your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also.” 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” God is the first and the last. Isaiah 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel [f]whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. The first and the last died and rose again. Revelation 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. As a man, Jesus ate, thirsted, slept, wept, prayed to God and died. As God, Jesus rebuked Satan, forgave sin, performed miracles, accepted worship from the people, raised the dead and even raised himself from the dead. John 2:19 It is called the hypostatic union. As a man Jesus bore our sin. God cannot look on sin.

[@whyisgamora3721]

Kwaku won the debate easily and was simply more humble and sincere. The other panelists proved the Great Apostasy in their failed attempts to explain an immaterial, timeless, spaceless, 3 distinct yet not different, incoherent mess of notion of god. The other panelists topped it off by saying their god is the author of all evil and sin. The other panelists glory in talking up their own egos and ability to cite verse numbers or years of study rather than make a clear case in clear language for their beliefs. Kwaku presented several LOGICAL problems with their worldview that they never answered. Amazing.

[@DojoatHome]

Actually 0 logical problems. He had trouble understanding the clear explanation.

[@Originaldoctrine]

Apologia are laughing mockingly saying that they are going by what scripture says that there is only one God in existence. But the Bible clearly teaches that there is more than one god in existence; Deuteronomy 10:17, Joshua 22:22, Psalms 82:1, Psalms 82:6, Psalms 136:2, Daniel 11:36, 1 Corinthians 8:5-6.

[@lizicadumitru9683]

How is the 3 stages of H20 analogy akin to modalism? Is not the essence and substance of liquid water, ice and gas (say steam) H20 yet in 3 different individual states just as Elohim is in essence God being but in 3 different individual persons?

[@dad2themax717]

Because the H2O is either in ice, liquid, or gas "mode". There's no liquid or gas while it's in ice state. That analogy falls because it basically says during the incarnation of Christ, there's no Father or Holy Spirit. The liquid does not have a personal relationship with the solid and gas. It's just the same H20 in a different state.

[@lizicadumitru9683]

@@dad2themax717 The relationship of those three modes is the chemical makeup H2O. So even if it's liquid gas or ice in its basic ontological existence all those modes are still H20. Whether in the flesh as in the Incarnation or spirit, he is still YHWH.

[@dad2themax717]

@Lizica Dumitru yes. Christ is always God. The Father is always God. Spirit always God. However, when liquid turns to ice, there's no gas or liquid present. When God is incarnate, there is still The Father and still The Spirit.

[@lizicadumitru9683]

@@dad2themax717 I see, you need all three to exist as each at one time for ONE cube of ice, let's say.

[@dad2themax717]

@Lizica Dumitru yes. So, in order for the analogy to work, you would need one water molecule that is solid, liquid, and gas all at the same time. I used to use he H2O analogy myself until I was corrected by a church ender. There are plenty of articles and writings on the subject that further demonstrate how that and many other analogies fail to truly grasp the triune nature. Our God is amazing.

[@saguaro23]

You guys were cruddy hosts. Constantly interrupting and ganging up on him to where he couldn’t even reply. Sure you gave him moments to reply, but overall it was constant attempts to shut him up and cram your views down his throat. Plus you guys got personal and were condescending to him and an entire religion’s faith. You should redo the whole thing with an unbiased moderator who actually moderates.

[@SamM-lv8hr]

They weren't trying to push their views, they were trying to correct his overwhelmingly poor understanding of what they even believe in the first place. Kwaku refused to listen critically.

[@saguaro23]

@@SamM-lv8hr No. I’m right you’re wrong, stop trying to explain anything because I won’t listen and it doesn’t matter what you say because you have no valid points worth listening to and you need to be quiet and understand how wrong you are and once you accept what I’m saying then you can be right too... well, maybe, because you still seem like someone I want to argue with, so even if you agree with me I’ll still argue against whatever you say because you’re just incapable of making sense. Yeah, my approach to arguing with you is so great because I’ve made it clear that you can have no correct opinion and I don’t care what you say and will just fight incessantly to dominate the “discussion”.

[@chrismej2185]

why is the volume so high :,((

[@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx]

yea, lol I turned my volume all the way down but still sounded like those meme bass boost memes

[@Originaldoctrine]

Jeff Durbin says we see nothing in the Bible where it talks about God having the appearance of a man. But the Bible says; Genesis 1:27. Acts 7:28-29.

[@Originaldoctrine]

Where does the Bible say that Jesus Christ is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father as Jeff Durbin states it?

[@Originaldoctrine]

Jeff Durbin says that the Bible teaches the Trinity but it’s actually only all the exegeses of scripture that teach it. Nowhere in the Bible itself is the Trinity ever mentioned let alone outlined.

[@elizarhall8693]

When Jesus was suffering during the crucifiction he called out to the father to take away his suffering, IF they are one being in the same he could have stopped his own suffering but that is not what happened. So as far as Im concerned Kwaku is right.

[@Originaldoctrine]

Apologia says that God is not a man. And yet they would acknowledge that man was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27); they would acknowledge that God is a male (Genesis 1:27); they would acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the express image of God (Hebrews 1:3); they would acknowledge that Jesus Christ, who they say is the same being, essence and substance as God, was a man exalted on high by God to reign eternally as God (Philippians 2:8-9) And yet somehow they insist God is not a man. Hmmm?

[@Originaldoctrine]

Jeff Durbin says that kwaku doesn’t understand what the Bible says about the Trinity and says it’s audacious of him to say that scripture doesn’t teach the Trinity; But Kwaku is completely right - the Bible says nothing about the Trinity.