GREAT DEBATE: Christian vs. Mormon on the Bible

[@bradleyjoseph6678]

Glory to Jesus. I was a Mormon for 18 and a half years. And thanks to channels like this and Mike Winger, and my friends. I’m saved. Jesus is Lord and truly is the way. ✝️❤️❤️❤️

[@bjones5791]

Mike Wenger is a lot more honest than these guys when it comes to scripture. The problem I have found with James White and these other people as they believe God has predestined people to hell. That to me is complete total insanity when taken with the whole of scripture. I can make a case for that in certain cases with the Bible, but the overall point of the Bible is a love relationship with our Savior Jesus Christ as he opens the door for our relationship with the eternal Father! Don’t ever get away from that relationship aspect of your born-again relationship with God! I’m telling you it is rabbit holes that are absolutely maddening when taken to their “logical”conclusions concerning predestination versus free will.Love from Texas!Brent

[@bradleyjoseph6678]

@@bjones5791 true. I do respect my Calvinist brothers and sisters. Although, I’m not a Calvinist

[@bjones5791]

@@bradleyjoseph6678 They work really hard to make their 5 “TULIP”points.Definitely my eternal family,just super uptight!😂!…we all gather around the Gospel,i simply believe you have a choice in the matter as does everyone else.”Why i am not a 5 point calvinist-Norman Geisler” here on youtube is AMAZING,as well as “Soteriology 101” channel with Leighton Flowers,just to get some perspective.Love from Texas!..Brent

[@ryanadams5719]

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide……

[@chainsawkarate]

Amen bro

[@carrydobbs1663]

Both sides did a wonderful job presenting their points. I have to agree that the protestants made more sense to me personally. I come from a Mormon family and I have been a protestant who trusts the bible alone as my final authority for two years.

[@RussellEdwards-dz3gq]

Oh we got a atheist

[@John-ne4fq]

Who put complied the many different books of the Bible and determined which were the words of God and which were not. Do you see how your reasoning is flawed at its basis? The only definitive word of God is given to you personally by the Holy Spirit, and if you had understood lds theology you would have understood this.

[@jacobzivotic]

⁠@@John-ne4fqthere’s actually a lot of history and rationale behind what became scripture and what did not. Have you ever looked into it? There’s a few documentaries about it on KZbin :)

[@scottm4975]

Which Bible?

[@DarcyTheManstop]

@@John-ne4fq There is no historical proof for the ancient america part

[@godispatient3451]

You cannot understand scripture without the Holy Spirit revealing it, meaning giving you understanding.

[@wam-wildlifeandmore1141]

So how do you receive the Holy Spirit without knowing what is right? It’s a paradox. The scripture is pretty easily understandable

[@tigistmulatu6350]

I was about to say the same

[@CommandoJenkins]

@@wam-wildlifeandmore1141 You receive the Holy Spirit through sincere faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible and sincere repentance of sin. This means a broken and contrite heart that knows it is a sinner and yearns to God for salvation. All who call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. The holy spirit dwells in the body of the new believer and teaches you all things. Scripture that once made no sense to you, will be understood immediately. The Bible is also breathing, meaning things you read while indwelt will make perfect sense to you for the exact struggle you are having at a particular time. They are not just empty words on a page. Repentance does not come unless God first draws you to him. Faith comes by hearing the gospel. God will nudge unbelievers to repent through many ways. Their hearts may get harder and further away from God, and his voice gets quieter and quieter, and eventually you are completely lost, and blinded and will perish in eternal separation from him (hell) because you have ultimately chosen this. By God's grace you have woken up today to read this, tomorrow is not promised, if you die an unbeliever, you will be in hell forever, separated from him. Repent and believe and you will never die!

[@wam-wildlifeandmore1141]

@@CommandoJenkins yah 😂 I have received the Holy Spirit It was more of a rhetorical question.

[@bpapi22]

To say all your knowledge of God just comes from reading the Bible disavows the Holy Ghost, the 3rd member of the Godhead. Makes no sense.

[@pastorjasondove142]

Poor Mormons, I spent 18 years as a Mormon, but the Grace of God saved me by the blood of Jesus . I am now a pastor

[@brendanjobe6895]

That's great! Are you a preacher too?

[@garrymoss8021]

Poor non-LDS. I was raised protestant for almost 19 years and then worked for a large Christian ministry for almost 30 years. Thank GOD that I was lucky enough to be one of the ones who found out about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and get it. Now, I'm out of that dark soup of darkness and confusion.

[@ChristisLord2023]

​@@garrymoss8021sorry to hear that you spent almost 50 years around so called Christians and didn't learn to understand scripture. I hope you find the truth and escape the LDS lie you ran to.

[@garrymoss8021]

@@ChristisLord2023 If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a lie, then it is absolutely most awesome lie ever. Where to start. One of the first things I noticed was you have a system where intelligent people devote their lives to God, with a high percentage living clean lifestyles. Something else that got my attention was that they were the first ones (and the only ones since) who had good answers for the basic kinds of questions I had that nobody else did. Their answers not only made sense, but they fit together-and they have continued like that as I have continued to learn more over the years. When I pray about it, I get answers to my prayers confirming those things. The gospel as taught by the Church, well…it’s not my purpose to put down others beliefs; I don’t need to, so let it suffice to say it brings everything together. I have worked shoulder to shoulder with top leaders from mainstream or credal Christianity, and I see them struggling for the answers that come easily to me. Further, I find that what the Church teaches works; when I follow the teachings of the Savior as taught by the Church, life is better-and I am more gloriously happy than ever. I have challenged people numerous times to show me something as good or better; nobody has been able to even come close.

[@HebrewDoneRight]

Utah is the happiest state in the US

[@Altair1904]

The correct title was Calvinists vs Mormons

[@alexinthemiddle4170]

And more recently the correct title would be protestants (because we do not know if those 2 were both or even 1 Calvinist) vs Latter Day Saints!

[@lewismeza1989]

100%

[@chrisnoe7272]

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[@alvinfeatherston1171]

100%

[@trevinroletto9010]

The LDS skit and a lot of their opening comments were directed towards Calvinist.

[@nyabelov3d]

Praise the Lord Jesus and I’m so blessed I’m a born again Christian 🙌🏽✝️

[@IAMBENNYBLANCO.]

amen 🙌🏾

[@shelaine1000]

Amen

[@staleydu1]

I’m so blessed to be a Christian and member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

[@Jrce11]

@@staleydu1I pray that you will come to the lord and away from the misteachings of the LDS

[@staleydu1]

@@Jrce11 thanks bud. Merry Christmas

[@abbigailbattle5983]

Wow Debates are sooooo much better when the audience silently listens, not one outburst! Great audience and great moderation by Dr. White👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

Agreed. The few times I've found myself in churches with a more charismatic or pentecostalist bent and I hear people shout 'amen' or 'that's right' like a reflex, I wonder if those people are actually listening and taking what they hear onboard, or if they're too busy shouting to hear the preacher.

[@powerslohner6728]

@@PrenticeBoy1688 this wasn't a sermon it was debate. Most people would understand the difference so it makes sense they were being quite. And I think the person you were responding to was referring to the last few presidential debates Where the crowd were cheer at times and it was obnoxious

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

@@powerslohner6728 I'm not sure how to respond to you. You've 'read between the lines' of my previous comment and you're responding to your misapprehension of my comment, not the actual words of my comment. Did I ever suggest that the event shown in this video was a sermon? The original commenter's point was that it's better when an audience actually listens to a speaker instead of booing or cheering and not actually hearing the information being presented. I replied with an anecdote about people who are too busy shouting 'amen!' to actually listen.

[@PrenticeBoy1688]

@Mando Mann Really?

[@marksavoia3687]

Christ taught colonization, He taught government, he never taught religion all Kingdoms expand through the process of colonization...every thing he taught was colonization.... it starts at Mark 1:14 and Matt 4:17 .. colonization is the influence of a King expanding to new territory and is reflected in changes in culture, values and principles

[@NostalgicPiano]

satan will never stop attacking Gods word. He always has since the beginning. Stay strong my fellow born again Christians!. Jesus is Lord!

[@MACSX7]

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.” ‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭

[@Tahimate]

What does that mean?

[@jaredmason439]

​@spnzfolau4611 it mean Jesus is the Word. Abd that He was there during creation and through Him everything was created. God bless you!

[@ZwelithiniGama]

The debates that went through on this verse is enormous

[@AndrewGiles688]

The word of God hasn't historically meant the Bible. It certainly didn't in John as the Bible didn't exist yet.

[@shirlenefarrar1404]

​@AndrewGiles688 That is a very ignorant statement and a ridiculous one at that. Just what do you think Jesus, John the Baptist and the 12 Apostles and the Apostle Paul were quoting from??? They taught from every book in the Old Testament, from the book of Genesis to The book of Malachai. That was what was in existance at the time. The word Bible means book or scroll.

[@christscrownandcovenant2520]

This Presbyterian, ex-Mormon brother is proud of and thankful for his Baptist brothers! Well done! I pray that God uses this to open ears and hearts! Excellent!! SDG!

[@eldermcgraw8406]

It showed to me as a Latter Day Saint how absolutely bankrupt the arguments against our church and especially pre suppositional apologetics are

[@firingallcylinders2949]

@@eldermcgraw8406 Can you elaborate

[@G1stGBless]

@@eldermcgraw8406 as a protestant who is neither mormon nor calvinist I simply cannot get by how twisted the calvinist doctrine of double predestination is. They basically agree with the new age atheists that free will does not exist. Without freewill we are simply robots in a wholly predetermined illusionary matrix. Any logical 7 year old would weary of such a soulless boring game.

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

@@eldermcgraw8406 yes , these guys represent Calvinism not Christianity ..

[@christscrownandcovenant2520]

@@G1stGBless Sounds like you’re confusing it with equal ultimacy and hard determinism. That’s a common misunderstanding. The Reformed position is compatibilism and positive/negative decree. But, grace to you either way. Lord bless you!

[@apologiautah]

Apologia Church Utah is proud of you guys! Our Lord was glorified and the truth contended for.

[@SickestDisciple]

Did this debate take place in Utah? Or Arizona?

[@apologiautah]

@@SickestDisciple Apologia AZ.

[@SickestDisciple]

@@apologiautah right on.

[@TiNa-ll3cp]

What about the disgusting Joe Smith, are proud of him. Look for his life style out of the Mormon library. Has to be a reason no to let you guys investigate about him if you do it there is no debate necessary.

[@kreature7946]

Put down the crack pipe Tina

[@Randomnoobi]

Learned a lot with this one. Also, it was something else watching James White squirm at times. It seemed to me he would've loved to interject at certain points, but also knew he needed to fall back and allow the young ones to cut their teeth. They did a great job! Loved it!

[@glenycasa7701]

Without the Holy Spirit in the person, he/she can not believe or see God/Jesus. The book will be foolish to him/her.

[@dnzswithwombats]

Hearing the Mormons say the Bible is fallible puts a chill down my spine. It echoes the serpent in Genesis chapter 3 verse 1 saying, "Hath God said...?"

[@dnzswithwombats]

@@thekolobsociety "The words of the Lord are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times." And I could go on with more and more. They poo-pooed that the Bible says it is inerrant and perfect. They're missing the boat. Are you LDS, friend?

[@maximaphily601]

@@thekolobsociety Becauses he believes, and it was counted to him for righteousness. If you don't belive, you will never be saved. Hell awaits........

[@lovegod84jesus80]

@@thekolobsociety get the Hebrew manuscripts of the Old Testament and the Greek collection of the new using both majority text and the textus receptus and look at them side by side. They match 99.9 %. No meaning is changed in any text and it held up the test of time. Get your manuscript game up! Truthfully you both don’t care about manuscripts only feelings and emotions and idolatry with Joseph Smith and BY! I’m not sure what you want but Satan creates cults to attack and confuse those looking for truth

[@anderssarenpa4641]

@@thekolobsociety Mormonism was demonically created by a Freemason who was a charlatan crystal ball reader, Joseph Smith. It's doctrine of demons like Islam with Mohammed. Do you understand the history of what the 'LDS' believe? Are you aware of their cult-like beliefs of becoming your own god? Of the blasphemous ideas that are hidden from early members like how God had a beginning and became a 'god' of this solar system? I could go on and on about the issues with Mormonism, like how the fake history it talks about with America has no archaeological evidence to back it up whatsoever, unlike the Bible.

[@maximaphily601]

@@thekolobsociety I don't think anything. Scripture alone.

[@fernandowendt5190]

This is how debates should always be held! Fantastic job and great to listen to!

[@klaahklee7663]

My debate is this video "TEST OF PROPHET : BIBLE VS JOSEPH SMITH " I think you should watch it too.. God. Bless

[@KenrickLockhart]

It is truly interesting to watch grown men debate their myths with one another.

[@kuemua]

TEST OF A PROPHET:THE BIBLE VS JOSEPH SMITH youtu.be/FrqkaKz_S And The Bible vs. the book of mormon kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHK5nKaXmpJ5qM0 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 3)"But I fear, least by any means as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from simplicity that is in Christ. 4)For if that he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS whom we have not preached, or if ye received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,ye might will bear with him." Galatians 1:9 If anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed

[@DrillEntertainmentNetwork]

@Kenrick Lockhart true hahaha, this is interesting to watch as an atheist

[@Magmacarp]

I agree. When everyone talks over each other nobody learns anything.

[@Sparreaux]

I appreciate both sides and their time in doing this highly needed debate

[@kuemua]

TEST OF A PROPHET:THE BIBLE VS JOSEPH SMITH youtu.be/FrqkaKz_S And The Bible vs. the book of mormon kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHK5nKaXmpJ5qM0 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 3)"But I fear, least by any means as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from simplicity that is in Christ. 4)For if that he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS whom we have not preached, or if ye received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,ye might will bear with him." Galatians 1:9 If anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed

[@pinnacleroofing9841]

only first 8 minutes have passed and I am already a fan of the moderator. He should be running presidential debates.

[@juanduenas1943]

I mean it is James white. Haha

[@juanduenas1943]

However, look up the late great Walter Martin.

[@aerodave1]

Neither side did a good job at proving their point. They didn’t even cover the differences between Mormon doctrines and Christian doctrines. This was a debate about sola scriptura and Calvinism.

[@paulcavanaugh3845]

I agree totally.

[@zombiexxmaster1285]

That wasn’t even the point of the debate 🫣

[@sergiomartinez5946]

Yep I agree. Also the Christian side kept saying "We belive the Bible is true because the Bible says so". I'd expect more from James White's protégés.

[@AndrewGiles688]

Who's fault was it to bring in false topics?

[@AndrewGiles688]

​@@zombiexxmaster1285that's what the top comment is complaining about doofus

[@matt7019.]

That was a well spent 2 1/2 hours. Very good debate, thank you!

[@michaelmclaughlin4374]

God said "I will write my LAWS upon their hearts and in their minds"

[@mmmmmech]

You can hear James restraining himself 😂. Great debate and great moderation.

[@goobermcgilicuty3754]

James White in every debate I have seen or heard always has an agenda. Not so much in this one, but always within debates pertaining to Christian doctrine.

[@aspreedacore]

@@goobermcgilicuty3754of course a trinitarian agenda

[@Tricorncitizen]

​@@goobermcgilicuty3754don't most people in debates? What's the point for arguing if you don't have an agenda?

[@BuenasNoticiasdeIL]

I wish our election debates could be like this

[@friendlyfire7509]

Truly truly an underrated comment.

[@jp22344]

Yes I agree, however, the general population does not have that long of an attention span, the television networks would be freaking out to not be able to go to a commercial every 5 minutes, and the majority of our politicians lack any level of maturity or sobriety to conduct themselves in such a respectful manner, and the amount of logical fallacies both sides of a political debate would utilize would be countless.

[@dibackdraft]

I agree too

[@sovereigngrace9723]

Lol I think the Mormons were debating election...

[@jessebryant9233]

Election "debates"? I wish we had such things! 🤪

[@Mr.J281]

Having biblical knowledge isn’t the same as being a good debater.

[@jasonsworld333]

Especially for LDS members who dont believe in contention

[@MightyChange22]

@@jasonsworld333really? Is that Mormon doctrine ?

[@jasonsworld333]

@@MightyChange22 yes it is

[@Itsmeyoubz]

I love open dialogue. Great debate brothers! Glory to God!! 🙏🏽❤️

[@mikebrunet54]

Open dialogue does not mean absolute truth meets on neutral ground. The first Mormon rebuttal should have been stopped as soon as he pronounce his continual strawman arguments. The rebuttal session should never be an allotment of time. When someone says something and makes a particular statement about the others opposing view it’s usually never about the authority of the Scripture and central all the things of the New Testament and the Old Testament pointing to the person of Jesus Christ and the Trinity correctly defined that is the crux of the difference between Mormonism and fundamental Christianity as the saints on the Day of Pentecost when the church began after Simon Petros preached the Gospel and God worked the Miracle of filling those who were obedient to Gods instructions to wait upon Him in Jerusalem with the Holy Spirit. .

[@mikebrunet54]

There cannot be two version of the Father there be two versions of The Son and there cannot be two version of the Holy Spirit. This is the main reason God states also that His scripture was completed by The Apostle John. It was by Gods Chosen of the Old Testament and the New Testament of course God would complete His word before the first century of the church. Thus Jesus dictating the seven letters to the 7 churches of Asia and delivers by the messenger Angel to John is told to write down these things. The book of Revelation can only be understood by the diligence of understanding the whole of Gods Word. It is God chosen who God has breathed into that write exactly what God has inducted not any man is capable of putting together Gods integrated message system that tells the true History mankind and also codes it in two languages that cannot contrive a coding that Proves only Our Eternal God is capable of doing. Mormon theology is not in alignment with Gods 66 book Bible. Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born from above. Nicodemus was not mistaken of who God is ….Elohim triune God three persons one God. Also Mormons believe this universe is eternal and know nothing about Christ 1,000 reign on earth nor the eschatology of these days once again not understand the whole of Gods completed 66 books details every event that is the progression towards the 70 th 7 year period that shifts all focus to the nation of who will welcome a false Messiah. Israel in a Third Temple to show the disobedient News who rejected Him as God showed in the Garden and John the Baptist testified of at the Baptism of Jesus that Jesus would be the Lamb of God slain for the sins of the World.

[@rickhuntling7338]

@@mikebrunet54 amen brother except the 3rd Temple nonsense, I'm guessing you're making the same mistake 99% of Christianity been taught in error about Dan. 9:27. Try "HE" the pro-form to the antecedant "Messiah" instead of "a prince" and the week is Passion week not the 70th week. The 70th week is still there in "consummation". The "midst of the week" was the Thursday ✝and "it is finished" making the sacrifice cease. The "abominations" were the Jews continuing to sacrifice after the ✝️40 years. Ezek. 4:6,7 is the 40 years YHWH bear the abominations of unacceptable animal sacrifices the HE made it "thy Holy City" desolate of "thy people". The "iron pan" symbolic for Rome the pan a wall of Roman shields round about Jerusalem in 70 ad. The temple in 2nd Thess isn't the 3rd Temple it's the the black stone in Mecca. Ezek 28:1 says the King of Tyre did everything the son of predition will do without a Jewish Temple standing.

[@nanaimochurch5798]

I so appreciate the friendly and respectful interaction between all of these men, both in this debate and in the previous discussions. I hope there will be many more!

[@maximaphily601]

They were friendly as it was a fake debate. Neither side believe in the true Christian Bible.

[@truthgiverandfinder3246]

@@maximaphily601 what's the True Christian Bible. ?

[@maximaphily601]

@@truthgiverandfinder3246 Sorry but this is a very difficult question to answer on KZbin, we would have to sit down for at least 30 minutes, more likely several hours, to really address the topic. But needless to say, anything added after Revelation (such as in Mormonism or Islam) is false. There are 66 books in the Scripture (the extra books used by the fake Roman Catholic church are not included in this number). Authorship authority of each book was important in choosing what was included (such as the Apostolic writings of Paul). The Old Testament is settled from the Israel/Hebrew books, 39 in total. The other 27 are New Testament. Another important consideration in choosing a book to include was that each Scripture had to be consistent with both the Old and New Testament teachings. Then another factor was the manuscripts that were widley used and spread through the early Church were considered to be more important, they had widespread usage from early days. Massive persecution quickly determined which books were likely God-breathed than man-made. Some books were worth dying for. Would you die for a fake book? Combining all these factors together, in assessing what is true and not true, to get to the TRUE Christian Bible. However you then need to add to this that Christians were first called so in Antioch (Syria - now Turkey), which was the cradle of Christianity. It was from Antioch that the Greek Textus Receptus originated (talking New Testament here). These manuscripts were used to get the Englsh King James Version amongst other langurages during the Protestent Reformation. That is why the KJV is paramount for truth. Yes, you can analyse orginal Greek and Hebrew (if you can) to get deeper meaning into the KJV. However, the modern translations of English Bibles have corrupted some of the text, and use texts from Alexandria (Egypt) rather than Antioch. Alexandria was the "intellectual" centre of the ancient world, and we could study how the text is corrupted for hours. Modern day "enlighted intellectuals" have taken these texts (found in the 1800s) to re-write their new verions of the Bible, with errors and heresies included. Take for example that Origen (who took over from Clement) to lead the Catechetical School in Alexandra) was antichrist - Origen taught that he did not believe in an inerrant BIble (like most Bible colleges today). He wrote The Logos Doctrine, attacking the deity of Christ. So the corruption starts with people who wrote into texts things to suit their own personal postions, rather than be God-breathed. Then this has been taken over by the modern establishment since the 1800s (King James was from the 1600s). Take for instance Acts Chapter 8 verses 36-38. Compare the KJV using the Textus Receptus to the New International Verion corrupted by the Alexandrian text. The main thing you will notice is that the NIV 100% omits "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” The Alexandrian text is inspired by Satan. THis is but a very small sample of the many complications in having such a discussion.

[@leslietig4]

@@truthgiverandfinder3246 the Bible we already have a Bible... But the Book of Mormon also testifies of Christ. The stick of Judah and stick of Joseph. Also its so funny how the BoM has no polygamy.🤫

[@truthgiverandfinder3246]

@@leslietig4 I know you don't have any Bible you have a Colt luciferian fraud crap the b o n which contradicts the Bible and is a fried Fiction it's the ads against the Bible and makes up stuff against the Bible Revelation says not to add on to it but Smith is satanic scam and fraud from the beginning and added onto it contradicted it and went against God Every time and worshipped Satan all his life smith did so you don't know what you're talking about lol.

[@noidprivate8945]

Awesome, I used to be a JW and it’s thanks to channels like this and the book “The Forgotten Trinity” and of course Gods grace through my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that I was saved!

[@glennallred5510]

As someone who has been questioning this topic very heavily for about 8 months now, this debate has shed allot of light on the questions I have had, and I now have a stronger foothold in my beliefs. Thank you Apologia Studios for hosting this debate.

[@eternalsolace46]

what conclusion have u come to?

[@uganda_mn397]

So you are a Christian now?

[@darkforgiven360]

I wish they would have brought up archeological evidence for the Old and New Testament, dna evidence, literary, and artistic evidence. When asked how you know the Bible is true this should have been part of the answer. The two collections that are in modern times called "the Bible" have a wealth of evidence to back them up. Then and only then after reasonably proving the veracity of the Bible can we speak of the spiritual evidence.

[@kuemua]

TEST OF A PROPHET:THE BIBLE VS JOSEPH SMITH youtu.be/FrqkaKz_S And The Bible vs. the book of mormon kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHK5nKaXmpJ5qM0 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 3)"But I fear, least by any means as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from simplicity that is in Christ. 4)For if that he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS whom we have not preached, or if ye received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,ye might will bear with him." Galatians 1:9 If anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed

[@sandersthornburgh127]

As a Christian who is an ex-Mormon, I have to admit that the LDS debater's argument against Sola Scriptura & scriptural infallibility is airtight and rock solid. Beyond that, the LDS claim to be the restored Church falls apart completely in other areas. Yet, they are absolutely right that Sola Scriptura & biblical infallibility are man-made doctrines which are ironically not even supported by the 66 books of the Protestant Canon.

[@orangemanbad]

I feel so sad for these Protestant young men. They have only a surface level understanding of scripture and god yet are purporting to be experts.

[@mikeh1066]

Pastor James is a great moderator and I feel it gave him a chance to set the debate up proper. I have a feeling he thoroughly enjoyed moderating because it brought redemption to his debates that sometimes were not moderated well lol

[@firingallcylinders2949]

A moderator can make or break a debate. I'm glad he was very thorough in ground rules.

[@theodorepaul2610]

"[...]sometimes were not moderated well[...]" thou speaketh the truth :)

[@PatrickBandy]

H-AYMEN

[@biggs1524]

@@maximaphily601 🙄

[@G1stGBless]

I skipped his long winded nonsense. Believe it or not, completely skipping his intro and just watching the debaters caused me unequivocally, zero problems.

[@aussy_mo]

This was a great debate. I left one side for the other side and loving learning the true word of God. I hope to be as fluent in the Bible.

[@maximaphily601]

Hopefully you left for true Christianity, not Calvanism a fake.

[@robmullin1128]

@@maximaphily601 truth

[@bootsie6714]

Calvanism is a lie not Biblical. Pray the Holy Spirit guide you to the truth.

[@marteld2108]

You left a cult (Mormonism) for a heresy (Calvinism).

[@manualboyca]

Praise the Lord! Don't believe all these haters who oppose their Calvinist Straw-man.

[@vincentpena5574]

It will be a cold day in hell when San Diego has the best Mexican food

[@franklingenao7418]

This debate makes me love and appreciate Scripture more and to be more diligent in studying it. Both sides did great respecting each others time and without yelling or insulting each other.

[@maximaphily601]

The debate was a useless waste of time, as neither side supports the true Gospel message.

[@maximaphily601]

@@thekolobsociety Not hours, but about two hours per week on average across various platforms or postings. I might do nothing for one or two weeks, then come back (and read your comments - hours?). Then someone will present a topic, and I might have ongoing back and to with them for a few days, but only with them. Perhaps one or two at a time. Does not take much time. When you know the Scriptures sufficiently well to see someone's ongoing error, it is easy to spot and quickly comment! I just added 2 minutues right now, to send you a message. Helps also if you are a speed typist at 98% accuracy as I am. ALthought with age, it is eyesight that usually kills me in getting everything perfect.

[@danielmbugua2789]

@@maximaphily601 give us your true Gospel message then and highlight their errors too

[@maximaphily601]

@@danielmbugua2789 Sorry I don't have the time to do as you ask. There is plenty of great literature out there to inform you of the false religion on Mormonism, books upon books. They preach ANOTHER gospel as scritpure clearly reveals to us. And to do so, they attack always the fallibility of Scripture. They are deluded. While the Calvanists do harm to real Christianity through believing in false doctrines of men as a faith foundation. Again, you can do plenty of research and read plenty of literature on the errors of Calvanism. For instance, to suggest God chose who would be save at the foundation of the wolrd is not in scritpure and is man-made. He KNEW who would be saved from the foundation, but did not pre-determine who would go to hell - that is your choice!

[@danielmbugua2789]

@@maximaphily601 thanks for your response altho am aware of false doctrine of Mormonism...Will refresh my knowledge of Calvinism. More grace from a brother in Kenya

[@momlook6497]

Breeeeeh. This had me cracking up at times. I never heard of these young men before, but they absolutely killed it. May they grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ and continue to earnestly contend for the faith.

[@Oscardunlap]

Thank you!

[@TheRealRenn]

@Gary LaVere …put down the crak pipe Gary….I know the Brandon admin is handing them out for free, but that does not mean you need to use it. Hope this helps.

[@jaredstevens5382]

They killed it by saying the Bible is true because it says it's true? Lol Tautology 101

[@Draegoron]

@Mando Mann Its been proven false, idk what you're smoking. There was no global flood. There is no proof that the Jews were slaves in Egypt. A good God would say no to slavery, not give us the instructions on how to enslave our fellow man and trick some of them into being our slaves forever. If you actually read the book, you'd know how disgusting parts of it are. The amount of things proven false or impossible from the Bible is endless.

[@sidtom2741]

@Mando Mann what’s the point of highlighting them being Calvinists? They’re still followers of the true Jesus Christ. The question is are you?

[@karenvanzijl7915]

There is no debate, Mormanism is a creation of a very creative Joseph Smith. The evidence is so vast that there should be no discussion. I feel for the millions who have been deceived!

[@firingallcylinders2949]

I still don't understand how there are Mormons in 2022

[@lovegod84jesus80]

It’s really a sad case of family curses! One or two parents falling for the false teachings and the passing down to their children, which they have a lot of, and they feel a huge responsibility to their family to stand firm on their false teachings. We have to break generational curses

[@croppedndocked146]

It is truly amazing that people choose to believe in the Mormon Cult.

[@selinaogorman8380]

@@croppedndocked146 I dont i left the cult many years ago it’s all based on lies if it was true I still be in it but it’s always built on a lie.

[@karenvanzijl7915]

@@lovegod84jesus80 Yes, I was one of those and then came across info on KZbin. I will be baptized as a Christian soon, and not as a Mormon or any other denomination. Feel sick to my stomach about everything I've learned. The saving Grace is the internet and at some point most will come across this info. Can only pray they will see it.

[@TheBoxingChamp01]

GOD SAYS HE DOES NOT WISH FOR ANYONE TO PERISH, SO HE DOES WANT FOR EVERYONE TO BE SAVED. BUT PEOPLE HAVE THE FREE WILL TO CHOOSE.

[@TheBoxingChamp01]

@@thekolobsociety Absolutely not, they simply asked the question but they don't know my answer, the mormon book doesn't say what I said, mines comes from the Holy Bible. I still believe God talks to us but not in the ways that the mormons describe it. Their ways contradict the Holy Bible, I am A Saved Born Again Christian ✝️ who leans more towards the Pentecostals

[@AVKingJamesBible]

God already settled the “debate” with His Bible. Mormonism and their teachings are incredibly blasphemous and unbiblical.

[@lovegod84jesus80]

Indeed!

[@davidbermudez7704]

It’s GARBAGE

[@bjones5791]

Boom.Mic drop.

[@lemjwp1756]

Just like God predestines babies who die to eternal torment in hell? Right.

[@truthgiverandfinder3246]

@@lemjwp1756 god doesn't they go to heaven immediately. And even those who reject Jesus without true knowledge still saved. True unitary Christians True restored church and proven so reveals this NOT satanic antichrist occult moronism and NOT satanic JWS qnd NOT SATANIC sdas with ellen g white. But jesus and his true followers.

[@jacobwhitus3715]

I like to jump to the crossfire section of these debates, and I think this is the best I've ever seen. Both sides didn't crowd the time and they gave succinct and clear answers. Quite refreshing.

[@LBizKid04]

I used to do that too, but not anymore. I would encourage you to do the same 👍🏻 have a blessed day

[@jacobwhitus3715]

@@LBizKid04 yeah I agree. I usually start there and then go back. It kinda depends on what the debate is about.

[@robmc120]

What a magnificent show that James White is not the only one who can debate but "passing the torch" as it were to the younger generation to handle the topic maturely, logically, masterfully in debate. God bless all the Apologia Studios team!

[@Oscardunlap]

Thank you!

[@jackiewheeler9202]

I agree. I saw the title at first and got super excited thinking it would be James White and/or Jeff Durbin doing it, then was a little disappointed that it wasn’t. But you’re so very right, it’s time to start training up the next generation to fight for God’s truth. They did a great job here.

[@bootsie6714]

The defense they give is not Biblical but rather a lie from hell. Once saved always saved is a lie from satan.

[@Oscardunlap]

@@bootsie6714 who teaches once saved always saved?

[@bootsie6714]

@@Oscardunlap - calvanist

[@henrydells6864]

“Do you interpret the Bible ?” “I read the Bible” 💀😂 seriously?! Does scripture interpret itself? No! So yes you interpret the Bible… how can you possibly say otherwise ? You are deceiving yourself at that point.

[@ChristisLord2023]

Yet that is actually a rule of exegetical reading of scripture. To allow scripture to interpret scripture in context.

[@LatterDaisySaint]

Henryyyyy!

[@GordonBeats]

Everytime I read comments on Mormons turning to Christ, it brings so much hope to me. I have a family member who is on her mission right now in AZ. I pray that the Holy Spirit touches her heart and turns her to Christ. I am currently learning LDS doctrine to have conversations with her about the differences in the Gospel, God and Christ. I have learned so much from this Channel! Thank you guys!!

[@sidtom2741]

Buddy, I’ll say this. You’ll also need to be well-versed and firm in scripture. Talking to them tends to be very frustrating because they use similar theological terminology.

[@theitguy2731]

@@sidtom2741 I spent 2.5 hours with them today....a lot of head turning...a lot of "What you're saying makes a lot of sense"...and a "You should pray and continue reading". By the way....I spent about 2.3 hours of that doing the talking.

[@sidtom2741]

@@theitguy2731 what kinda points did you bring up? Also, did you try the moral argument?

[@theitguy2731]

@@sidtom2741 I told them the great importance that ANY revelations HAVE to line up with all previous revelations. That there are no private interpretations. I taught them about the 1st Covenant and the transition into the second covenant. They talked about their baptizing by proxy. I told them that violates the procedure God set up. That all of our choices are by FREE WILL. That if their premise is that baptism is required for salvation/going to Heaven to be with God...then they are violating Free Will. They are bypassing the CHOICE that God requires from our own free will. I also brought up how this temp place where people can be baptized by Proxy are probably not even there. Because Scriptures say that Yeshua got the keys to that place and "set the captives free". I believe Yeshua witnessed to the people there and gave them a choice like he gave us the choice. I couldn't even tell you everything I said. I talked the majority of the time and they seemed to Marvel a lot. Like I watched their minds hit 5th gear and not come up with a rebuttal. One thing I tried to drive into their spirit is that Yeshua was teaching SPIRITUAL things. When it says you must be baptized by water and fire...Why is it that we only take the Water part seriously and not the fire? I pointed out how Nicodemus was even confused when Yeshua said you must be born again. That when Man interprets things they always want to equate it to a Physical thing. When in reality the point or lesson is Spiritual...but spoke about using physical things we can use to understand. I can't remember everything my guy. I wish I did. I wish I recorded it because I quoted scripture very close to actual words used and I don't have a good memory.

[@amyhiatt1177]

I'm going to admit right now that I'm a Mormon. I think that you need to get your information on Mormons from anyone other than these two bozos. They're twisting what we actually believe either to fit the debate or because their own views are screwed up. I'm ashamed of them. I'm glad they said they're not representing the church and just their own views because their own views are wrong when it comes to our religion.

[@nanaimochurch5798]

Please, please, please do the follow up debate suggested at about the 2:34:00 mark! I would so love to see a debate about the validity of the Book of Mormon.

[@judgedredd31]

Right??? That’s what I was hoping to learn more about in this debate but I guess we will never know unless the spirit witnesses the book in our hearts… and yes, the book is fallible.

[@Jb071385]

That debate wouldn’t last very long. That nonsense contradicts itself several times. Absolute garbage

[@robertrussell7468]

According to the Christians in this debate the Book of Mormon is the Word of God because it says it is.

[@tombenjamin3685]

Well, whatever god revealed to Joseph Smith was not translated correctly due to his fallible nature.

[@nataliegalloway6644]

totally on board with the Protestants here!! however it made me a little sad when the main reasoning they gave for the Bible being true was that it’s presupposed. they’re not wrong by any means, but it seems it may have been more effective to go into the authority of Jesus and His claims about the Bible! but i’m definitely no expert like them and think they did awesome overall so far!!

[@nataliegalloway6644]

@@thekolobsociety 1) God’s power to maintain His word, 2) manuscripts, research about where the Bible came from, how it was translated, the manuscripts we have, etc!

[@bootsie6714]

@@thekolobsociety- that's your question..

[@maximaphily601]

@@thekolobsociety One way of knowing the Scripture is true is that true Christianity is the only so-called religion (term used by man) that is mocked, blasphemed, and shamed into nonexistence through cultures of the world to destory it and remove it, or to move away from it. Whether moving to a real man-made relgion (Islam, Mormonism, New Age, Universalism etc) or one of the current trend religions (Green Movement; Mother Earth; LGBTQ+, Social Justice, BLM etc). But better still, have it corrupted through the many relgions of so-called Christianity is a better strategy for Satan, including all the false or distorted translations of Scripture to suit your own cause and hide your own sin. Man needs a cause, a religion, when they don't accept the one true God. When people swear, whose name do they use? You guessed it, the one True God. Why? Ever thought of that? Do they say, "Joseph Smith", or "Muhummod" to blaspeme when they swear? Or...J..C......... You guessed it.

[@Oscardunlap]

@@thekolobsociety by faith! How would you believe any of it? You weren't there to witness it. Besides Peter says the Word is surer than his own testimony.

[@larryjake7783]

@@thekolobsociety how do you know you're not in a mental institution hallucinating this thing called internet and this scenario? And im.part of your mind trying to free you and the only way you can be free is if you stop commenting and agree with the Danes and.you will be healed of your mental illness brought on by seeing your uncle die in front of you

[@goobermcgilicuty3754]

Their is so much physical evidence of the truth of the bible it is overwhelming and as such must be believed.

[@jesseemcgarland5142]

coming from a former protestant now proud member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this was a wonderful debate and helped fuel my faith in Jesus Christ

[@jesseemcgarland5142]

I also feel it is disrespectful to say Christians vs Mormons because “Mormons” are Christians. Even if you disagree that they are, we believe we are

[@xintimidate]

@@jesseemcgarland5142 It doesn't matter what you believe you are. Your religion is so far off base from what the Bible says. You think Jesus is a created being and Satan is his brother. Your religion is polytheistic and not Christian. Please comeback to Christ not this strawman Christ your religion created. You have 1 chance to be saved after you die that's it. Don't put your faith into Joseph Smith for your salvation put it in Christ

[@jesseemcgarland5142]

@@xintimidate do you know what Elohim means? did you know the Bible talks about a “council of Gods”? we don’t worship multiple Gods. What do you think “begotten of the Father” means? to beget means to create. My entire faith is based around Christ the only non Christian is you. you’re more like a pharisee because I don’t believe how you do you cast me out.

[@stephenkolbo7623]

@@xintimidate it amazes me on how much people like you think you know what we believe. 10 years ago I severed a mission in Brazil and down there telling someone God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit (the trinity) are one is blasphemy. Same “Christian” religions down there taught completely different doctrine. Same biblical passages have different meaning down there so my question is are they not Christian’s cause they don’t believe in the Christ you have interpreted? Because their Bible states they are separate? Or is it because they don’t have the NLV version of the Bible which adds and takes away meaningful scripture? Excuse us of reading the Bible and understanding that Lucifer was an angel before he fell from heaven and that he was loved by God and is a child of His like we all are. Lastly I wonder how you’d be treated by the people in the days of Moses claiming the people worshipped Moses. It’s exactly what you are saying to us about Joseph. Never prayed to him, never used his name for forgiveness, never accepted or believed him to be my way to salvation. That’s saved for the savior Jesus Christ who is the only name given in which we are saved. As true Christian’s we also teach and follow his commandments and if we fault we repent with changing the behavior. Not this calling on His name and automatically allowed to do what we want or accept who we are. This is the difference between salvation and exaltation. Everything taught is focused on the the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[@farmershane]

How did you get passed the historical racism, massacres, and revisions of the book that was supposed to be the final truth?

[@mmttomb3]

This was an excellent defense of the faith. This is so encouraging! Apologia Church is doing a great work with our youth. So proud of u brothers!!! Praise God!!

[@harryabelpotter9630]

Yes ... I agree 100% ... if you are saying circular reasoning is a defense of the faith. If you're saying that allowing the Saints to expose the fact that Sola Scriptura isn't biblical is a defense ~ then ya, they did a good job.

[@mr400meter]

We all do circular reasoning with our ultimate authority. That’s a given

[@evanbirkby4501]

Whose faith? The Protestants did not provide an excellent defense of faith. The arguments from Calvinism went too far and the Mormon's appeared more consistent and walked all over the protestants because they were debating election rather than Biblical authority. James White you have debated atheists very well, but your fellow Calvinists are really dropping the ball when they argue Calvinism with Mormons. I appreciate Apologia studios defense of the scripture, and I love my fellow Christians. It saddens me to see that the Mormons can beat up the Christians in a debate by simply arguing failures in Election logic.

[@bootsie6714]

@@evanbirkby4501 - I agree calvanism is not Biblical..once saved always saved is a lie from the pit of hell..

[@harryabelpotter9630]

to: @@mr400meter James 1:5 is God's promise to you. "If any of you lack wisdom ~ ask God. Knock and seek and you will find.

[@Sackettdude]

Man, all of these guys are so sharp. What a good debate! Daniel and Oscar are really holding down! Praise God!

[@brucebowman6866]

Hi James. Sacketts are all related. I trace to Brigham City. Before that to Sackett's hill in England. How about you cousin?

[@savedwretch]

I am a devoted Christian, I love Apologia and have learned so much from them. I do have to say however, the mormons made a very strong case against predestination as calvinists believe...with their little girl in the concentration camp argument. My Apologia brothers don't understand that God is omniscient and all knowing. God knows our heart's decisions/choices we will make through our lifetime....and with that knowledge of our choices before we were even born, God chose His elect based on our free will He gifted us with. He made a master plan based on our choices that we will make in the future up to when He returns and make an end to sin. So the mormons really got a gap here to refute the calvinists. Even though it is a non-essential topic, predestination in that we don't have a choice to go to heaven or hell and it is soly God that chooses who goes to heaven or hell before we could make the choice is un Biblical. God never said in His Word "i have predestined you to go to hell or heaven without giving you a will or a chance to choose". In the Word we read... “Choose you this day whom ye will serve: … but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Josh. 24:15.).... what was that?..."..choose.."...and many more Scripture that refute the notion of the calvinistic understanding of predestination..

[@robertrlkatz6890]

Absolutely correct, I don't understand why the Calvinist don't see that, with all the knowledge that God Himself has given them. Yes, we are a predestined people and that is only because God knows everything from the beginning to the end. God gave every person a free well, it is man who chooses their own destination. Why predestination even comes into play here is only because God is Omnipotent, He knows the choice each one of us is going to make, also He does not choose who the elect will be, He knows who will choose to be His elect. Babys that have not reached the age of accountability will go to Heaven because they have not come to the year of age to reject the Lord Jesus. Anne Frank had the same opportunity to either reject or to receive God at His word. I hope she will be in Heaven but if she has gone to Hell that would have been her choice. We will only know if she went to Heaven if I myself trusted in the Lord Jesus and because I have trusted God at His Word, then when I get to Heaven I will know if Anne Frank had trusted in the Lord Jesus because if she did, I will see her in Heaven.

[@mikewhiting988]

🙏Amen!!!

[@TMcConnaughhay]

This cannot be so if the Bible clearly says that no one seeks after God, and that we are all dead spiritually. This is where God intervenes and changes our heart of stone into a heart of flesh. We cannot chose salvation for our selves...it is a gift of God and we wouldn't choose it if left to our free will.

[@savedwretch]

@@TMcConnaughhay "seek and you will find" Matt 7:7 ?

[@savedwretch]

@@TMcConnaughhay where does the Bible say ?no one seeks after God"? On the contrary, the Bible tells us to seek after God and we will find Him.

[@lemjwp1756]

You guys must have watched a different debate, because the reason, logic and critical points of the Latter-day Saint position were amazingly sound. I especially loved that if God himself walked into the room and made a declaration, ANY declaration, it would be denied by the Protestant position, which essentially and alarmingly SHUTS God's MoUTH! How on earth, or heaven, could such a position ever ever be correct or defensible????

[@Oscardunlap]

If God is immutable and infallible, could he contradict that which he previously revealed? Of course not and for that reason that argument is irrational. Do you not see the logical issue here?

[@lemjwp1756]

What I know, is that I would never ever want to be in the position of telling God that He cannot speak, and that if he does, my ears are plugged. What if you've completely misunderstood something? The Book of Mormon asks "Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word?". In Amos the Lord says he does nothing except he reveals it to his prophets. To think he's been doing nothing for the last two thousand years is pretty sad. To think his interest and involvement with his creation was limited solely to a small strip of land in the Middle East two thousand years ago defies logic and reason. You believe your calling and election is confirmed through a witness of the Spirit. Yet you deny the same opportunity for spiritual witness to be valid among Làtter-day Saints. We learn truth through the scriptures AND on our knees, as James 1:5 instructs. For those humble enough to ask God, it says "and it SHALL be given him".

[@lemjwp1756]

You don't see Christianity and its new doctrines of salvation, grace resurrection, etc as progressive in relation to Judaism and the Law of Moses? Jesus repeatedly told the Pharisees and others they had misunderstood or misapplied the scriptures. So obviously something progressive was being revealed. And Deut 4:2 is clearly referring to that specific book or the Torah in general, as the other 61 additional books weren't yet compiled into the Bible.

[@lemjwp1756]

You can't be serious? The doctrine Christ revealed was dramatically different than Judaism! The salvation, love and grace that Christ, the apostles and Paul taught were doctrinal departures from the OT. The Holy Spirit was revealed in a new way. These progresdive ideas were why it was called the NEW testament.

[@maximaphily601]

If God walked into the room and made a declaration, that is called Scripture............... We have all the Scripture given to us already. We don't need more revelation beyond what we have.

[@chumbucket5109]

I really loved this! “What’s your ultimate authority? It has to be circular reasoning. If I say the authority of book A comes from somewhere else it is no longer the ultimate authority.”

[@Oscardunlap]

@@thekolobsociety he just stated our position. What say you? The Spirits witness is your ultimate authority? Well how do you know it's the spirits witness? Because the Spirit said so? Or because it is what the prophets taught and it is reasonable? If you pick the first flow of argumentation, that's an ultimate authority and it's circular. If you pick the latter, ha means the Spirit's witness is not the ultimate authority. Whatever verifies it is and whatever verifies that things is ultimately. It turns into a infinite regress of verification that can never ultimately be verified.

[@maximaphily601]

@@thekolobsociety And yet God also spoke to Muhummad to found Islam too, right?

[@NeededGR13F]

@@maximaphily601 now that's a debate I'd want to see. Wonder how a Mormon would hold up against a Muslim.

[@Oscardunlap]

@@NeededGR13F with the epistemology presented in this debate... Horribly.

[@NeededGR13F]

@@Oscardunlap should see if Dr White still has Shabir's number. I'd bet he's hungry to end his L streak.

[@Lee-xn8by]

Brainwashing is real, powerful and a very relevant topic in America today.

[@lovegod84jesus80]

Very dangerous stuff! It’s sad what I witnessed at this debate. Mormons attack the Bible and the Jesus of the Bible and man’s fallible interpretation making themselves a people who has no foundation but say they have infallible truth through a man named Joseph smith! The irony and word play was disgusting

[@danreich4320]

Greatly deceived and too often, very arrogant, people. Modern day Pharisees. Choke on a gnat and swallow a camel. They are in for a very unpleasant surprise. You cannot help but feel sorry for them.

[@spiritandtruth4716]

@John Andy “the Mormon beliefs are silly, but Calvinism is much more crazy and dangerous” pretty much tells us all exactly where you’re coming from lol

[@Lee-xn8by]

@John Andy John Calvin was a heretic on the same scale as Joseph Smith.

[@georgie0728]

Define brainwashing

[@tylermangelson]

Not gonna lie I was pleasantly surprised by the Latter Day Saints side of the debate

[@tylermangelson]

@@thekolobsociety I'm a Latter Day Saint. I honestly just wasn't expecting them to hold their position as well as they did. I was impressed.

[@tylermangelson]

@Hayden Carroll oh sweet! Good work man

[@IamGreatsword]

@DudeNamedDuncan He won nothing and was pitiful in his futile argumentation, Mormonism is quite possibly the most fake religion ever created by a council of charlatans, there was never Lamanites or a moron(i) just a bunch of lies and chicanery from the false Prophet(s) who blasphemed beyond belief. You Mormons are seemingly tldr in your opinions and expressed feelings Mormons are ludicrous in their gullibility.

[@TheLordIsMyShepard23]

@Hayden , Iam a Born again Christian with the Assemblys of God You both did a great job!

[@sandersthornburgh127]

@@TheLordIsMyShepard23 As a Christian who is an ex-Mormon, I have to admit that the LDS debater's argument against Sola Scriptura & scriptural infallibility is airtight and rock solid. Beyond that, the LDS claim to be the restored Church falls apart completely in other areas. Yet, the Mormons are absolutely right that Sola Scriptura & biblical infallibility are man-made doctrines which are (ironically) not even supported by the 66 books of the Protestant Canon.

[@chrispark2698]

I don't think it's proper to say we believe the Bible is true simply because the Bible says it's true. We believe it's true because God provided evidence through history to prove that the Bible is His inerrant Word. God sent his son, who died on the cross and was risen, who performed miracles of healing and exorcism during his lifetime, who confirmed the teachings of the previous scriptures and expanded upon them for our sake; because He sent his apostles to spread the Word which had been revealed to them through God in Christ, who were willing to be brutally tortured and killed to defend this belief. There are multitudes of historical, scientific, biological, and archeological evidences that prove the veracity of the Bible. The Bible is true because God protected and preserved it for us, and He left evidence of His Truth in His Creation.

[@rdancranston]

Yes and He did for the Book of Mormon as well.

[@sherrywimmer3069]

@@rdancranston there's zero evidence to support the Book of Mormon's stories, places or people. And once you learn how the Book of Abraham was written, there's no way to believe Joseph Smith was any type of true translator.

[@rdancranston]

There is all the evidence for the book of Mormon for people that want to look and see u just have to be willing to look. And how evidence does on need. If there was only one thing they found that proved the BoM true would that be enough? Look how much evidence there is for the Bible and yet how many do not believe in it. Millions. Sometimes its also about faith. Most people I have learned don't really want to know the truth about the BoM because if they find out for themselves that it is true they have to change. They have to let go of pride. And most people just don't want to do that. It was the same in Christs time. Most people especially the saduecess and Pharisees didn't want to admit Jesus Christ was the Savior even with all the evidence laid out before them because then they would've had to follow Him and His new teachings and admit they were wrong.

[@kbschulze]

@@rdancranston impossible. The Bible does not agree with the book of mormon. So God preserved His Word,He did not preserve the book of mormon since it does not agree with Scripture. I pray you put your trust In Jesus alone.

[@rdancranston]

Have you ever read the BoM. It never ceases to amaze me how many people say things about the BoM that have never read it. I know so many people that get frustrated when trying b to tell the truths and wisdom of the Holy Bible only to be told the bible is a fairy tale and blah blah blah by people who have never read it. Most everybody I ever talk to about the BoM when I ask them if they have ever read it tell me ...No I don't have to....my preacher told me such n such. But like I said. Its just like in the time of Christ. When He was trying to explain to the people especially the Sadducees and the Pharisees that there was so much more to the gospel than the OT and of course they rejected Him and His message. I would challenge you to read the BoM. You would see as I and millions of others see that it doesn't conflict with the bible. It is exactly what it says it is. Another testament of Jesus Christ.

[@lindseyclement4606]

something i found really interesting is that the mormons were defining truth as what you feel God reveals to you- not what is historically accurate, fulfilled prophecies, etc. By that standard the muslim could find truth since they feel like God has revealed to them that the Quran is true- yet mormons don’t recognize muslims as having the truth

[@Tobarius]

I agree that they weren't able to define an objective framework for authority, but they did establish a workable framework. The Calvinists also established a workable framework, but when the debate is on whether the Bible is the ultimate authority, the Calvinists weren't able to establish their position without citing outside authorities.

[@okayyeah8699]

The Quran is not only a linguistic miracle but also a literary miracle nothing like it has been produced before or after May Allah guide yous

[@Tobarius]

@@okayyeah8699 TBH, I've never seen good evidence for this. Some parts of the Qur'an _are_ very melodic, but a lot of it is very plain. And Muhammad spent a lot of his childhood with Bedouins, so I'm not surprised he was a skilled poet. But honestly, that argument isn't going to work on someone who isn't fluent in Classical Arabic.

[@okayyeah8699]

@@Tobarius kzbin.info/www/bejne/oqjMkqewiMSHgKs I’m just a laymen but here’s a quick and brief summery, there’s lectures out there explaining this but here’s a compact view on one of the many miracles. The whole way the Quran was revealed, from the melodic, sonically pleasing sound to the content of what’s within, to the structure in which God almighty chose to reveal it, these all prove that the Quran had to be a direct revelation from God himself.

[@tyrnosrsflexxbox1999]

belief in Heaven and Hell didnt start until 3rd generation Christians; they felt there was more to life after death. derp.

[@NickOtis0707]

At least we can have a civil conversation and a civil dialogue. But the truth is in God's word there is no such thing that says in God's word that you can become a God one day and have your own planet or Jesus is Lucifer's brother. That were saved by grace as a free gift. And it's nothing that we can do to earn to go to heaven. It's by trusting in Jesus Christ alone to believe in him for our salvation that he died for our sins. We still need to show love towards Mormons towards Roman Catholics towards Jehovah's witnesses towards Buddhist towards Muslims towards Hindu. God's word never fails there's no change they're just some people in the world that want to change God's word but remember when God says if anyone changes his words of the Bible who put the plagues on people. God is love and forgiving he's merciful and slowly anger but at the same time he is holy and just and he needs to be the holy judge that condemns the unrighteous and when I look at my old self I don't want to go back to my old all I want to do is do my 100% best to please the Lord to walk righteousness and to live by it even though I'm not perfect no one ain't. but we have to wake up every day to have the mindset to be the best person that we can be in the Lord's image. We need to remember that there are demonic spirits that are deceiving people into false religion and the devil will do anything that he can to separate people from the Lord to let them know of a lie. One of my favorite Christian KZbinrs his name is Ray comfort his website through livingWaters. He talks about that the Mormon community reads Joseph Smith book more than they read God's word. But we should pray for the Lost everyday because I know the Lord has many ways to get through other people through visions and dreams and he guides other people to help other people out in their life's. I need to remember that could be one of these people and the Mormon community the Catholic community to let Jehovah's witnesses community. Only thing I can say is shame on these high leaders that's leading so many young people astray. I wanted to mention one more thing of one of my other favorite KZbinr Christians his channel is called off the curb ministry. Another KZbinr Christian that I like his channel is called DLM Christian lifestyle ministry. For us Christians true Christians we should pray for the lost every day in the morning and before we go to bed.

[@brianheaton5521]

How many time has the book of Mormon been rewritten? How many inconsistencies are there still between BOM, and D&C?

[@adflee6989]

There’s nothing list 3 things

[@scottm4975]

Not nearly as many times as the Bible’s been rewritten and the inconsistencies in the Bible are many. Because truth is a paradox

[@chadangell7812]

There are over 5,000 original texts of the Bible and not a single one is different than the other. The only "changes" that have been made were changed from "but" to "however". None of the context has been changed or compramised ever. There have been over 1,000 changes to the BofM since it beginning in 1830. The topic of Polygamy in the BofM is different than the same topic in the D&C...one says its ok and the other says it not...cant be both. Alma 7:10 claims Jesus was born in Jerusalem and not Bethlahem as told in the Bible. I can go on and on...

[@scottm4975]

@@chadangell7812 This is just completely innacurate. Just compare the dead sea scrolls and you'll find a number of differences that aren't as simple as "but" to "however". Not to mention how many different versions of the bible exist. The Ethiopian bible for example has whole books in it that aren't in the King James. There is a lot of variability in the Bible. It doesn't mean in general it's not true or accurate, just that it's more complicated than what you're trying to simplify it to

[@Wachary1]

@@adflee6989 One God Book of Mormon Alma 11:27-39, 44 2 Nephi 31:21 Mormon 7:7 3 Nephi11:27 Testimony of Three Witnesses Plural Gods Doctrine and Covenants Section 121:32 Section 132:18-20, 37 God is a Spirit Book of Mormon Alma 18:26-28 Alma 22:8-11 God Has a Body Doctrine and Covenants Section 130:22 God Dwells in Heart Book of Mormon Alma 34:36 God Does Not Dwell in Heart Doctrine and Covenants Section 130:3 Creation - One God Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 2:14 Jacob 4:9 Pearl of Great Price Book of Moses Chapter 2 Creation - Plural Gods Pearl of Great Price Book of Abraham Chapter 4 Chapter 5 God Cannot Lie Book of Mormon Ether 3:12 2 Nephi 9:34 God Commands Lying Pearl of Great Price Book of Abraham Chapter 2:22-25 God's Word Unchangeable Book of Mormon Alma 41:8 God's Word Can Change Doctrine and Covenants Section 56:4-5 No Pre-Existence of Man Book of Mormon Jacob 4:9 Alma 18:28, 34-36 Man Pre-Existed Doctrine and Covenants Section 93:23, 29-33 Pearl of Great Price Book of Abraham Chapter 3:18, 21-23 Death Seals Man's Fate Book of Mormon Mosiah 2:36-39 Alma 34:32-35 Chance After Death Doctrine and Covenants Section 76:106-112 Section 88:99 Heathen Saved Without Baptism Book of Mormon Moroni 8:22-23 2 Nephi 9:25-26 Mosiah 15:24-27 Baptism for Dead Doctrine and Covenants Section 128:5, 17-18 Heaven or Hell Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 28:22 1 Nephi 15:35 Mosiah 16:11 Mosiah 27:31 Alma 41:4-8 Alma 42:16 Three Kingdoms in Heaven - Most Saved Doctrine and Covenants Section 76:43, 70-112 Murder Can Be Forgiven Book of Mormon 3 Nephi 30:2 No Forgiveness For Murder Doctrine and Covenants Section 42:18 Polygamy Condemned Book of Mormon Jacob 1:15 Jacob 2:24 Jacob 3:5 Mosiah 11:2 Polygamy Commanded Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:1, 37-39, 61 Against Paid Ministry Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 26:31 Mosiah 27:5 For Paid Ministry Doctrine and Covenants Section 42:71-73 Section 43:12-13 Section 51:13-14 Corrupt Churches Promise Forgiveness For Money Book of Mormon Mormon 8:32 Church Members Who Tithe Will Not Burn Doctrine and Covenants Section 64:23 Adam in America Doctrine and Covenants Section 107:53 Section 116:1 Section 117:8 Adam in Old World Pearl of Great Price Book of Moses 3:8, 10-15

[@OrthodoxJourney359]

See what happens when you ignore the Church Fathers? The Mormons schooled you guys! I praise the Triune God that I came to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[@Oscardunlap]

Please elaborate? How were we schooled?

[@NeededGR13F]

@@Oscardunlap you were schooled because his boy Shamoun said you were schooled. He did like a 3 hour stream talking about how he was heartbroken over you guys getting totally schooled, and how Dr White is a demon.

[@WilliamEllison]

the first five minutes into the Mormons 15-minute speech. They already lost.

[@Roescoe]

Yeah, I agree, and I fairly strongly disagree with both positions.

[@Beintentionallyweird]

Roescoe I disagree with both also and I’m Christian. Although I agree with some on both and more on the Christian side.

[@Roescoe]

@@Beintentionallyweird Yeah, I don't think the topic was a very important one. Who Jesus is and how you follow him, is the fundamental Christian question. Are you on the side of the good beautiful and true or are you full of sin, pride and degeneracy? To me "the elect" sounds like the sin of pride.

[@dcents5458]

And the fact about their false prophet Joseph Smith.....negates their whole deal-io.

[@bigboybrock1205]

@@dcents5458 Joseph Smith is a true prophet. What makes you say otherwise?

[@reformed-slave]

Thank you Jason and Hayden for representing your side and debating respectfully. Though your introduction statement seem like a mockery to me, I believe it was in your good intentions to illustrate your point. And thank you brothers Daniel and Oscar for representing the Protestant side faithfully.

[@Oscardunlap]

Thank you for viewing!

[@maximaphily601]

The protestant side was not presented faithfully, impossible to do by Calvanists.

[@Oscardunlap]

@@maximaphily601 well that's obviously a very bias opinion. At least try to be objective otherwise your perspective can't be considered seriously.

[@maximaphily601]

@@Oscardunlap Yes I am 100% biased friend, to the Gospel of Christ and His Word. I agree!

[@slytheguy6761]

@@maximaphily601 O please! 😏

[@Forrest_Young]

This was a debate about Calvinism vs Christianity. Not Christian vs. Mormon

[@happysword4076]

@@thekolobsociety Good debate but I could not discern a clear resolution agreed to by both sides. Your bar was based on the "three problems" while theirs was the "collective witnesses" argument. That said, overall I believe your side had the upper hand.

[@dkbradshaw]

What I get out of this in a nutshell: What is our ultimate authority? Protestants: The Bible, LDS: God

[@maximaphily601]

You seem to have that wrong, as you have bundled Protestants all together as being represented by Calvanists. Bit like lumping LDS with Islam. Neither party has sound doctrine. LDS worse, but Calvanists too error on many things. And without the Word, you cannot be saved. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. That is SCRIPTURE, not some demonic voice, feeling, or experience, or vision. One reason why LDS is a Satanic movement. Just like Islam.

[@ThirdRowBack]

Protestants: God, through His Words in the Bible; LDS: God, through my fallible flesh (and through my equally fallible and often wrong church leaders, who are actually my ultimate authority, but we won't mention that in the debate!)

[@dkbradshaw]

@@ThirdRowBack Protestants: Through God's word in the Bible the way I interpret them (the interpretation of which has changed throughout history) and no more can be given. (But we will accept all the councils and creeds as God's word that tell us that 1 is 3 and 3 is 1 among other things, and the church fathers throughout the ages, etc, etc.(ignore "sola scriptura" when it is convenient) LDS: God and His word as given through fallible prophets (The way it has always been throughout Biblical history--which is always open to further enlightenment)

[@Oscardunlap]

Protestants: God's word LDS: Personal revelation we think is from God.

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

And what God is to a Mormon, is a subjective unreliable feeling that's not really God but myself. The bible is a solid foundation, your feelings are not.

[@vthunder]

This was one of the best debates I have seen in some time. Topic was so appropriate for our time. “Who says?” It was pleasant to see some really competent Mormon apologists who at times really got under the skin of the other side. Likewise it was great to see the Protestant side really hammer home the shaky sand of human subjectivism. Tactically I think the LDS won points on charity and keeping a little bit cooler under pressure, while really using the Calvinistic position against the other guys. As I am newer to tackling Calvinism vs Arminianism for myself, I do wonder if a couple non-Calvinists wouldn’t have been able to sidestep much of the election / reprobation discussion that these two LDS guys did their homework on. Few other angles that could have been argued from my armchair :) More about how the Bible is divine rather than human in origin, More on polytheism vs monotheism, more on Jesus’ handling of the scriptures, how scriptures were used to correct error in the scriptures, textual transmission, apostolic authority, etc. I suppose you just have to pick your approach and go for it. I appreciate all participants and walked away impressed there are more reasonable LDS that I have ever encountered. I also feel renewed that as much as I really enjoy my Calvinistic brothers and their faithfulness to scriptures, Im on the right path to slow down and take my time to work through the entire Calvin/Arminius debate. This debated helped on so many fronts. I want to thank everyone again for recording and posting.

[@jacksyoutubechannel4045]

There's getting under the skin and there's hurting your own cause. I know it's not the crux of the debate, but starting off with, essentially, an accusation that the God the other side worships arranged for the Holocaust to happen and was cruel to its victims was _extremely_ off-putting toward the LDS side (and actually a little disappointing based on the impression I had from Mormons I've known). And I say that is as someone who is neither Mormon nor Calvinist -(which I assume the opposition was--I didn't hear them say, but the LDS side referred to them that way).-

[@reyrey0226]

Mormons are leading their people away from the truth. Unless you've been baptized with the holy spirit, you will always be deceived.

[@kuemua]

TEST OF A PROPHET:The Bible vs.joseph smith kzbin.info/www/bejne/fKPUnJSBr8SGick&feature=share Bible verse Book of Mormon kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWLQd5eFZtx1Zpo

[@kuemua]

​@@thekolobsociety TEST OF A PROPHET:The Bible vs.joseph smith kzbin.info/www/bejne/fKPUnJSBr8SGick&feature=share Bible verse Book of Mormon kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWLQd5eFZtx1Zpo

[@kuemua]

​@@jacksyoutubechannel4045 TEST OF A PROPHET:The Bible vs.joseph smith kzbin.info/www/bejne/fKPUnJSBr8SGick&feature=share Bible verse Book of Mormon kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWLQd5eFZtx1Zpo

[@QCshooter758]

As a Christian, I love seeing these debates with LDS, but I do struggle with the Calvinist views on salvation. I'd love to see a good non calvinist debate with lds

[@maximaphily601]

That is one debate you will never get - Truth v. Darkness, rather than Darkness v Darkness as in the current debate.

[@rdancranston]

From the Light....Salvation is afforded to all those who believe in Jesus Christ. Take His name upon them. Are baptized by water and fire...the Holy Spirit...and repent of their sins as offered by on only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. This is what the LDS believes.

[@maximaphily601]

@@rdancranston Hmmm.... what about the underwear?

[@maximaphily601]

@@rdancranston Was Jesus procreated into existence, or is He eternal?

[@maximaphily601]

@@rdancranston How did the thief on the cross get salvation without water baptism?

[@PNWMinuteMan2000]

1:15:49 one of the Mormons said "so he's not perfect" this sounds like he does not fear God if he is willing to say that.

[@introvertedchristian5219]

I think it would've been interesting if they had a debate purely on epistemology and foundationalism in general. A lot of the differences between them seemed to boiled down to epistemology, so it would've been good to have a more focused debate on that.

[@introvertedchristian5219]

@@thekolobsociety No, I don't have any connections. I'd love to see it, though.

[@usgamechamp1091]

Great debate, TY to the channel and the debaters. Learned a lot while being entertained!

[@richgreene9420]

Sola scriptora all day long!!! Because God can!! Amen!! All Glory to God our Father and our Savior Jesus Christ!!!!!! Every last bit of it!! I love you King Jesus!! Maranatha!!

[@richgreene9420]

@Gary LaVere no!

[@richgreene9420]

@Gary LaVere only 1 God ...Just one. Jesus Christ the Savior!

[@cabarete2003]

When members of the Church of Jesus Christ say "feelings" we do not mean emotions. We mean "feelings" as in senses. When you experience the Holy Ghost, it is a spirit communicating and communing with another spirit. You feel it as you would a person brushing by you. Or rather, it is a feeling as a sense like sight, smell, taste, hearing, touch are. We use these senses to navigate this world. We are to seek to feel the Holy Spirit in our lives. We feel it more when we are in tune with God's truth/laws/commandments in our lives. It is like old radios where you moved the dial back and forth to get the right frequency to hear a station.

[@TalonRoar]

Beautifully said!

[@GPtrickshots-cw6pq]

Not all spirits are the Holy Spirit. The great liar disguises himself as an angel of light.

[@cabarete2003]

@@GPtrickshots-cw6pq Sure and that's why you have Gal 5:22-23. Lucifer cannot counterfeit those things. And the idea of the HS bringing that true testimony of Christ is repeated over and over in the NT. 1 Cor 2, 1 Cor 12:3 in particular. There is no doubt from scripture that truth ultimately comes from the Holy Ghost. And we feel the HS when we exercise faith in Christ.

[@GPtrickshots-cw6pq]

@@cabarete2003 A spirit that leads one to feel rest assured that god is merely a passer of the divinity baton to oneself is not of god. This kind of spirit works in the realm of spiritual darkness; hell bent on deceiving us to feel good-really good-about being our own eternal object of our affections.

[@cabarete2003]

@@GPtrickshots-cw6pq that wasn’t super clear. But I agree, only seek the Holy Spirit. Too many today speak of the Holy Ghost but deny that is working in our lives. They deny the power of the Holy Ghost.

[@williemaysfan1731]

2 minutes into (Mormon) his opening, he starts mocking my brothers in Christ. Attacking Calvinism (I’m not a Calvinist) he’s not even presenting his case

[@Oscardunlap]

@@thekolobsociety the complaint is valid Hayden. You guys took up 80 percent of your opening rebutting Calvinism lol.

[@bradleyjoseph6678]

@@thekolobsociety lol what case? All you did was prove how contrary you’re reasoning is. Especially when they got on testing to see if something is from God Genuine question. If you’re “prophet”, President of the church, came out and said. “I received a revelation from God. He told me Joseph Smith was not a prophet, you must believe in the Triune God to be saved, the Book of Mormon is just Christian fiction “ Did his revelation come from God?

[@bradleyjoseph6678]

@@thekolobsociety interesting 🤔. Like how Joseph Smith rejected the true nature of God? Like how Joseph Smith rejected who Jesus truly was. Like how Joseph Smith rejected Christian Orthodoxy all together What Smith preach was not lined with Christianity. And that’s fine? But God forbid a LDS “ prophet” is not aligned with Orthodox Mormonism The irony in this, is that the FLDS Church view you guys as the apostate church. Though, if we take your world view, I don’t know who has the “true gospel “ between you two

[@williemaysfan1731]

@@thekolobsociety still watching lol

[@williemaysfan1731]

@@thekolobsociety not even remotely close

[@hardknocksph.d2175]

I was extremely impressed by how accurately the Mormons portrayed presup in their opening...

[@conradical41]

They can’t both be right, but they can both be wrong

[@kuemua]

TEST OF A PROPHET:The Bible vs.joseph smith kzbin.info/www/bejne/fKPUnJSBr8SGick&feature=share Bible verse Book of Mormon kzbin.info/www/bejne/fWLQd5eFZtx1Zpo

[@chrisnorcutt9060]

Hello Conradical Jesus Christ Warned Man Before He Accented Into Heaven , Those Coming and Preaching Another and Or An Angel From Heaven ( 2nd Corinthians CH-11 VS-4 ). ( Galatians CH-1 VS-8 ) and Yes My Wife and Myself Were Members Of The Mormon Church and We Left 👍🙏

[@conradical41]

@@chrisnorcutt9060 with all due respect, I have zero interest in what you think Jesus said. I'll wait for your threat.

[@IAMBENNYBLANCO.]

​@@chrisnorcutt9060amen!!!!

[@crazysoldier1982]

I am Christian, however, the truth of the matter is that the LDS made excellent points. The predestination vs. free will argument was strong. Also, God is infallible, but us humans are not, which is a logical argument. If was an atheist seeing this or being completely objective. I would have given it to the Mormon.

[@petermunyaradzimuzarewetu8089]

But the debate was on the bible and the book of mormon not on Calvinism

[@dwbid42]

@@petermunyaradzimuzarewetu8089it was supposed to be but the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price were never brought up. There should not have been allowed any questions on Calvinism because Calvinism is basically undefendable.

[@thorns]

Yeah, not to mention the much better direct answers from the mormans throughout. Despite the strange tactic of a maybe strawman while attempting to steelman at the beginning, they showed better good faith arguments throughout. Imo

[@TURKISHSAILORo]

Awesome job Oscar and Daniel defending the authority of scripture. Thank you both for doing this!

[@TA-jb4ke]

I must have missed the part where they responded to their actual burden to prove the 66 texts of the Biblical texts are a closed canon.

[@TURKISHSAILORo]

@@TA-jb4ke that wasn’t the debate topic, although I do think it was addressed

[@mr400meter]

@@TA-jb4ke Listen to Daniel's opening statement one more time and go back and listen to the Mormons opening statement. The mormons literally did exactly what Daniel told the audience to look out for in the debate.

[@chasejones4752]

@@mr400meter yea I was genuinely laughing when I heard that. It was like a prophecy lol. That was the closest thing to a present day prophecy we will get.

[@mr400meter]

@@chasejones4752 Yes, and they lost the debate by not staying on topic.

[@DrBob-gr5ru]

Great and respectful exchange, though hard fought. I would love to see to corollary debate thesis: "The LDS church/the collective witness model is the ultimate authority for faith and practice" done as a part 2. In regard to ultimate authorities, I don't like the term "circular reasoning" but understand the point. Hebrews 6:16-18 gives an example of that when God swears by Himself with an oath since there is no higher authority than Himself.

[@Oscardunlap]

That was our point. To argue ultimate authority is to present the that which the ULTIMATE. The moment you appeal to anything else to verify it is no longer the ultimate authority.

[@Acts420Evangelism]

@@Oscardunlap Great point Oscar. I firmly agree, and have used Presuppositional Apologetics myself. By God's grace, you and Daniel did a great job. I listened to the entire debate. May we glorify God, and exalt Christ our King!

[@Oscardunlap]

@@Acts420Evangelism check this out as well: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b2qXgJqNnd9qeMU

[@jonniefandango3013]

Something that stood out to me from the Mormon collective witness argument is that parts of the collective are our bodies, hearts and minds, yet the bible clearly states “the flesh” is “the inner foe”. We can’t trust the flesh. Our hearts are deceptive. Really enjoyed this debate. Really edifying for a fairly new believer

[@jonniefandango3013]

@@thekolobsociety I’m talking in regards to personal prophecy and revelation not the physical action of reading the bible. If I believed God was speaking to me through my thoughts then I’d be sinning with a smile on my face , thinking it’s ok because God loves me and I’m forgiven no matter what. That’s why I read the BIble and God speaks to me there. I speak to God through prayer but I certainly don,t wait for an answer from Him. I don’t trust my heart or mind apart from God and scripture. I’ve tried that and ended up believing in a God of my own misunderstanding. Romans 7:18 for I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right , but not the ability to carry it out. Revelation chapter 22, I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them,God will add to him the plagues in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy , God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city. These are truths spoken in scripture. It doesn’t say, “read these books and then wait a couple of thousand years for another book”. I am not led by the flesh but by the power of the Holy Spirit. Left to my own choices I wouldn’t,t have picked the bible up in the first place. John 6:44 no one can come to me unless the father draws him. John 6:63 it is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is no help at all. I’m a bible believing Christian saved by Grace through the gift of faith, granted to me by the Father and not of my own works. So no I don’t use my body, God does 🙏

[@Oscardunlap]

I mentioned his in my closing statement. The heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things. The man hi trust in his thoughts is a fool according to scripture.

[@jonniefandango3013]

@Oscar Dunlap thank you Oscar was great listening to this. Really helped me as a Christian who only came to Christ a year ago. God bless you brothers 🙏

[@stelladavis7832]

So if you read the Bible and feel good about it is that then not to be trusted? And do not the apsotles also claim after seeing the resurrected Jesus, " Did not out hearts burn in us?" So the heart can be trusted, but only sometimes???

[@jonniefandango3013]

@Stella Davis I can't answer that as my relationship with God is not built on fleshly feelings. In that sense if a piece of scripture makes you feel anything but good do you not trust it?

[@flforever4513]

I must say that Mormon guy had a really good argument about the Bible.

[@paulcavanaugh3845]

I disagree. His argument about book a and book b was taken apart by asking about the content of each book.

[@chemnitzfan654]

@@thekolobsociety Imagine two friends, Jacob and Drew, walk into a room and there are two books on the table, Book A and Book B. Both books claim to be the word of God. Drew asks, “But how can we know?” Jacob says, “We will have to read both books and pray about them. Whatever is true within them will be revealed to us by God.” Drew replies, “Well, that’s great. How will God reveal this to us?” Jacob: “It’s hard to say, but I believe that God will manifest the truth of all things to us through our thoughts and our feelings. After all, God is the ultimate authority.” *After reading both books and praying about them, Jacob and Drew meet again to discuss their findings.* Jacob says: “Both books contain the word of God! I knew it!” Drew: “How did you come to that conclusion?” Jacob: “Because God told me through my thoughts and my feelings. I know it in my heart.” Drew: “Hmmmm. I also read both books, prayed about them, and researched them. And it seems to me that only Book A is the reliable word of God.” Jacob: “Why?” Drew: “Well, there’s much evidence that supports Book A as a reliable record. There are many ancient manuscripts for Book A which are internally consistent. There are also archaeological discoveries that verify the historical narrative of Book A. Book A has seemed to impose itself upon believers for centuries as well as upon the rest of the world. I also found out that Book A did not always exist in its current form. But rather it is an internally consistent collection of writings that have united believers for millennia. Book B, however, has always been in its current form. It came from a single source; a translation of a supposed ancient record written in an unknown language. I looked around for this ancient record so that I could study it further but couldn’t find it. Apparently, the record does not exist. Some adherents of Book B told me that it was taken up to heaven by an angel after it was translated. I also looked for historical and archaeological evidence for Book B, but I couldn’t find any. Also, both books contradict each other on several points that are central to the overall message. So, I had to conclude that they couldn’t both be equally the word of God. I’m sorry, but the evidence for Book A outweighs the evidence for Book B. Jacob: “Well, you can’t just depend on physical evidence. That’s not how faith works. You must pray about both books and see how you feel.” Drew: “Oh, I did! And I truly feel that Book A is the word of God and Book B is not.” Jacob: “Well, I can’t argue with that!” Drew: “Really? So, which one of us is right?” Jacob: “It doesn’t really matter. You see, we are all on a spiritual journey of progression. God created this world and sent us here so that we could progress and become like Him. We will all inherit some degree of eternal glory; we just vary in how we get there. It’s different for everybody.” Drew: “So you and I are both right, even though we have vastly different beliefs about God and His word?” Jacob: “Essentially, yes. You see, we live in a fallen world, and we are fallible human beings. It’s impossible for any text to be the infallible word of God because they were written by men. And men are fallible. So, we do the best we can with what we’ve got. Don’t worry though, in the next life, everything will be sorted out.” Drew: “Wow. How did you come to that conclusion?” Jacob: “Because both Book A and B seem to indicate that.” Drew: “I also read both books and did not come to that conclusion. What makes you so sure that you’ve got it right?” Jacob: “Because God revealed it to me through my thoughts and feelings. I have an inward witness of it” Drew: “So your faith is true because you had a subjective personal experience. But Muhammad said he had visions of the angel Gabriel, Catholics have claimed visions of Mary, some in the New Age movement say they have flown over rooftops through astral projection, some people born biological males or born biological females believe they were born in the wrong body. A subjective personal experience doesn’t seem all that reliable.” Jacob: “Well, that’s all we have! Your faith is also based on subjective personal experiences.” Drew: “It’s true that I also have had subjective experiences that encourage me that my faith is true, but those experiences are not the foundation of my faith. My faith in Jesus Christ is not solely based upon what Book A says about Him. It starts there, but there’s all the other evidence that I cited earlier. Taking a leap of faith to believe in Book A as the infallible word of God and Jesus as my Savior is the logical thing to do.” Jacob: “Well, good for you! But you don’t get to tell me that I’m wrong. We are both right in our own regard.” Drew: “Actually, Book A says that you are wrong. It says that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life and that rejecting Him comes with very severe consequences in the next life. It doesn’t say we can all be right. I think we should follow what it says.” Jacob: “That’s your interpretation of Book A. I don’t hold to your interpretation. You are a fallible human being.” Drew: “I’m so confused. If all books of scripture are fallible, all human beings are fallible, and personal experiences are subjective then how can we know objective and universal truth?” Jacob: “You’re making this too complicated. Just have faith.” Drew: (exits while scratching his head) This is copypasta but it's true. The system you argue for means we can't know anything.

[@davidwillis3454]

Mormons like the word interpretation. However you don’t need to interpret anything. Context always tells you what it means.

[@selderane]

@@davidwillis3454 How do you know the context? How do you know your interpretation of context is correct? In the case of the New Testament, are you a 1st Century Jew? Or even a 1st Century Roman citizen living in Judea? Interpretation is a must because you and I were not there and we will have information gaps. Namely, we were not born in the culture these things were said. So it will take us interpretative work do rebuild that context.

[@hombrepobre9646]

they didn't instead they used inductive argument

[@xAgent_Smithx]

Just had a chance to finish the cross examination and Q&A portions. Great debate overall

[@ocarcara3491]

I love the Christians there. But, the calvinism model really makes difficult for them to prove their point. We are christians( calvinist and non calvinist), but the those differences between christians are very sad. I wish to see a debate with non calvinist christians so that the mormons would not have those arguments to use.... i love you guys.

[@ambitionroad]

YEP AGREE it's so frustrating

[@joshsimpson10]

I didn't like either opening statement but the theatrics from the Mormon bros was just ridiculous. But the Apologia bros were excellent, I would armchair quarterback their opening tactics. Frame your opponent more appropriately in your rebuttal, which you did well. Calling out your opponents positions is exactly what you do when you lack a substantive opening. Like the Mormon bros opening, of which Apologia bros identified properly.

[@davidbermudez7704]

They’re not brothers in Christ

[@joshsimpson10]

@@davidbermudez7704 not yet 💪

[@harryabelpotter9630]

I love the theatrics. 4 example: Consider, for example, the following hypothetical conversation between a TMC, traditional majority mainstream man-made Christian who is explaining the concept of God and an atheist who cannot reconcile Trinitarianism with his scientific understanding of The Law of Non-Contradiction. An atheist: "Don't you believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?" Evangelical: "We certainly do, and they are one God." An atheist: "Don't you believe the Father is a god?" Evangelical: "Yes, of course." An atheist: "And the Son is a god?" Evangelical: "Yes" An atheist: "And the Holy Ghost is a god." Evangelical: "Yes" An atheist: "That's three gods." Evangelical: "No, they're one God." lol These theatrics as you call them are an excellent vehicle to expose the weakness of your opinions. Remember, We don't disagree with the Holy Bible, we agree with the Bible and the Bible agrees with us ~ it is your private interpretation, your personal opinions of what you think that scripture says that we disagree with. peace

[@joshsimpson10]

@@harryabelpotter9630 you are caracaturing a straw man. Atheism is nothing but contradictions so your example is even less useful than the nonsense presented in this debate. And whatever a man made Christian is I can assure you it isn't one who believes in the true and living God. But I would question if my worldview revolved around me personally becoming a god and denying the Trinity present in the old testament. The Trinity is revelead by the time you get through numbers. God, Angel of the Lord and Spirit of God in that order. Think on that.

[@israel4reel787]

Two groups arguing over a book that has absolutely nothing to do with them, trying to use big words to make themselves seem wise, but they have no understanding of our book 📕, you can’t make this stuff up.

[@matthewbahr6507]

Very good debate with respect on both sides. Thanks to all of you. Know from an unbiased standpoint, the Mormons or LDS as they like to be called now were more relatable in my journey in seeking God because if God truly does love, He would give us free will to choose whether we want a relationship with Him and would not force us into a relationship. That would sound like being robots. Could you imagine not having a choice and who you have a relationship with? That would not be love. It is hard to believe that a loving God would force His will on somebody even if their heart says no. If God tells us to do something, we have a choice and if we say no that we would not like to accept a calling or so forth, a loving God would not force us to do it anyways. Instead He accepts that we do not want to do it and he will choose somebody else to do it instead and there will be consequences for our actions because we might feel guilt later on but God does not force us to do anything. That would take away free will and again, that is not love but as they said, it is bondage. I believe that if we deny God at first that he does not give up on us and cast us away but gives us the opportunity to repent with true intent and although he will not force us to do what He has asked if us, He hopes that we will choose Him eventually like the parable of The Prodigal Son because as a child of God, just as our children, God wants what's best for us and he wants us to come back to Him and be in His eternal presence and have joy and love and peace that passes understanding. These temporary choices that we make to obey or disobey are just that, temporal to learn and grow and find the Truth and the Life, and ultimately it's our eternal spirit that matters most. My understanding is God allows us to choose whether we want to be with Him or whether we don't want to be with Him. If we choose God, we choose heaven and if we choose not to obey or be with God then we go to a place that's not with Him which would be considered hell. The fact that God lets us choose whether we want to be with him or not is loving. He guides us through the Holy Spirit and through his angels The Messengers but He doesn't force anything upon us because that would not be love. I think of it this way, if I was the creator, would I want my creation to choose whether they want to be with me or force them to be with me? If my creation chose me because that was their free will that would be the greatest feeling of love. If you have children or pets or family or friends that love you for who you are, that has got to be a wonderful feeling of Joy in your heart. Also I cannot understand how God would not want a relationship with us right here and right now as we pray to Him with a sincere heart and He answers us through others. When I heard them talk about how God has predestined everything, that was depressing and honestly that felt like something that the devil would tell us to keep us feeling sad like there is no hope or purpose and no reason to try because we have no choice. How could we believe that of we believe God is Love?

[@shane7548]

Is God free to love or not?

[@sandersthornburgh127]

As a Christian who is an ex-Mormon, I have to admit that the LDS debater's argument against Sola Scriptura & scriptural infallibility is airtight and rock solid. Beyond that, the LDS claim to be the restored Church falls apart completely in other areas. Yet, they are absolutely right that Sola Scriptura & biblical infallibility are man-made doctrines which are ironically not even supported by the 66 books of the Protestant Canon.

[@iitim2152]

If your asking if God can, the answer is always yes... the true question is Does God will

[@croppedndocked146]

A Mormon calling out Catholics for being corrupt... 🤣

[@truthgiverandfinder3246]

Mormons sten from catholic and Protestant like methodist. It's hilarious even the bom fairytale has catholic words and motifs.

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

I hope your laughing at yourself. Catholicism and Protestantism both indisputably have been corrupted. LDS been calling that since day one. And we are right, because Protestantism was the womb for Nazi ideology and anti-Semitism , Catholicism was the womb for authoritarian purging and tyranny. Good luck getting anywhere with trying to cover your own faith's butt cause unless your atheist, your comment holds absolutely no weight.

[@joelpak7101]

You know they both tech false doctrine don't you?

[@jacobsamuelson3181]

@@joelpak7101 They both teach Christ to the level of their understanding. Do you have true doctrine? I'm all ears.

[@joelpak7101]

@@jacobsamuelson3181 To their understanding is correct. They do not teach the way God wants us to Understand His love. And Yes I do and I have the Holy Spirit that gives me the discernment to see the truth and expose these satan and the false doctrine they spit out like vipers. If your too blind to see truth, then instead of just commenting based on your emotions, why don't your see if I am right or wrong by investigating what I said in my comment for yourself. I challenge you to do so. Infact, I encourage you to do so. I 🙏 you see the truth in what they are doing and I ❤ you had after you see the truth, then at that point, all the blessings that your hindered God from giving you, I pray that God at that point, start pouring His blessings upon you have stopped Him from giving you. I ❤ you and 🙏 that you don't ignore the truth and truly get to experience His love ❤ casue if you belive the way they do, your experiencing the love of man, which will always fail you, instead of the ❤ of God which which is eternal.

[@motorTranz]

Excellent debate! Thank you Apologia!

[@Cryptic_Llama]

It seems, to me, that there is no solid ground in mormonism.

[@Cryptic_Llama]

@Hayden How is a foundation solid if I can't even trust the word God has given and/or trust that I am able to find the correct meaning? It seems similar to my arguments against Atheism; if morality is subjective, I can just change what they are at any time. It quickly leads to chaos. From what the guy said, it seems that I can just close my eyes and whatever I feel "God Showed me" I should act on. The Bible says to test the spirits because demons can hide themselves as angels of light in order to deceive. Now I do believe that the holy spirit can do that, but I do not believe that the holy spirit can contradict the words of the Bible. This is because it was written by him(the writers/scribes were inspired by him for the writing of the text as well as the maintenance of the texts). The Bible talks about the Bereans. They tested the scriptures to confirm that Jesus did/does meet the qualifications to be the messiah. This is why I see groups like Islam, Jehovas Witnesses, and Mormons as false religions. They have extra texts that contradict revelation/content that came before and alternate versions of the Bible that do things like insert verses that are not in any Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic transcripts. The new testament is not in conflict with the old, which is why it is valid. If it did truly contradict the old, I would be very concerned. It is clearly a fulfillment of old and an establishment of a new as the old testament said would happen. Also the Canon is closed. How can anyone read from beginning to end and think that there's more?

[@TheOtherPhilip]

That really was frustrating to watch. The most frustrating part was that it seems that the Mormons are arguing out of both sides of their mouth. They’ll say that the Bible contains the word of God then turn around and say that you don’t need to go to the Bible, just go to God… It’s like, fool, I AM going to God when I read what He spoke!

[@harryabelpotter9630]

Yes ... exactly. The Saints do accept the Holy Bible as canon scripture. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts the Holy Bible as the foremost of her standard works, first among the books which have been proclaimed as her written guides in faith and doctrine So, yes, the Saints believe the Bible is the word of God ~ Here is what the Saints disagree with. The Saints disagree with your private interpretation of the scriptures. They made this point very clear. It is your private interpretation of the scriptures that they disagree with. peace

[@TheOtherPhilip]

@@harryabelpotter9630 so do I go to what God says or do I go to what the saints say about what God says?

[@boogdoc8909]

@@harryabelpotter9630 LDS accepts THEIR version - which has been changed - not based on good translation - of the Bible. This is a massive oversimplification of "private interpretation" and assumes that the Bible is somehow complicated.

[@harryabelpotter9630]

to: @@boogdoc8909 No sir ... your understanding of the facts is not correct. We use The Authorized King James Version of the Holy Bible. The KJV is canon. We use exactly the very same King James Version as all other Christians who use the King James Version unless you use the New King James Version. . There is another version, but it is not canon There are some published excerpts that are used for comparison, but very few people have a copy of the entire version. I do not believe that the SLC church has the copy rights to that book. . if you have any other questions, I am willing to listen. ... peace

[@TheOtherPhilip]

@@harryabelpotter9630 I have a question. When I want to know what God is saying, should I go to what God has spoken or should I go to the saints’ interpretation of what God has spoken?

[@john-paulmathieu7195]

I love to listen to all kinds of different debates because I love to hear different viewpoints on a range of topics. What I found very interesting is each side used ways of disproving the other side using arguments from atheists debating a particular religion. Some of these examples would be the circular reasoning using the bible to show the bible is true and another would be the subjectiveness of personal testimonies. Pretty good debate not only were the debaters enjoyable, but the moderator did a great job keeping things in order.

[@fearandloathing9976]

Because atheism is logical unlike the various versions of Christianity.

[@Rightlydividing-wx1xb]

@@fearandloathing9976 your comment is incompetent and without knowledge.

[@justin10292000]

Um, no. Atheism is illogical, silly, absurd, anti-scientific foolishness.

[@4evamobbin534]

@@fearandloathing9976 yep! Nothing created everything! 😂

[@fearandloathing9976]

@@4evamobbin534 That’s not atheism. 👍

[@DMDex]

Watched it twice, I enjoyed listening and here are my thoughts: - The collective witness model presupposes things like logic, reason & induction but cannot ultimately justify their existence, rather they’re merely assumed and then utilized in said model to validate their beliefs. It’s also amazing that they say the heart is a line of testimony, even though Jeremiah 17:9 says it’s deceitful above all things & James 1:13-15 says that sin begins in our hearts and then becomes words/actions & it’s out of the heart that our wicked sinfulness comes (Matt 15:15-20) but when you accept the Mormon presuppositions that we’re all good and are all children of god I guess verses like that can’t contribute to a positive witness of the truthfulness of their presuppositions, so they conveniently ignore them or come up with all manner of excuses to essentially say: “language is fluid and those words don’t mean that, the verse doesn’t say that” which serves to reveal that if it did mean what they don’t think it means that it would be a genuine epistemological conundrum for them. - Hiding behind the term “interpretation” is a hilariously awful & obvious deflection from having to meaningfully deal with the issues. These Mormons don’t live consistently with this methodology, I never see them disagree with other Mormons even when they CLEARLY have a wrong “interpretation” about something that is faith promoting, only when it’s critical of their belief system, does this obfuscation come out. I wonder, do they say this at work when they read documents? Do they say this when they read the works of Jordan B. Peterson or other books written by fallible men? Probably not. - I wonder, does part of Jacobs collective witness properly factor in the fact that last I checked, all of his siblings? (If I’m mistaken I apologize) Have left the faith he holds so dear? How is it that such a thing is somehow not potentially evidence to be weighed in his collective witness model against the validity of his spiritual beliefs, namely that perhaps he is in a church that isn’t what it claims to be? - How does he escape the sunk cost fallacy, confirmation bias & cognitive dissonance? Via misuse of James 1:5, Moroni 10? Bury your head in the sand and just endure to the end? - He admitted his special revelation could be from satan and that Smith could be a false prophet and logically that infers the church might not be true after all. If the church isn’t true, then he’s not representing vanilla Mormonism as Joseph Smith taught. He wasn’t engaging in probability, in order to appeal to the widest possible audience via pseudo-sophistry from what I’ve been able to ascertain reading his teachings/sermons over the last 20 years. - IMHO This is clearly their own mental gymnastics at work as an attempt to stay in the faith and believe that they’re meaningfully addressing the issues while being philosophically tough minded even when the evidence points to the opposite of their own presuppositions. - However, something I’ve learned in the last decade is that the bread & butter of the postmodern Mormon “apologist” types, are to utilize denials (the word isnt infallible) deflections (that’s just your interpretation) & distractions (red herrings, straw men, not staying on subject for the debate) as their primary tools with which they wage war in the exchange of ideas. - These tactics may be intellectually satisfying for the faithful Mormon, but to the outside world watching and arguably moreso when a Christian is listening, it’s wholly unconvincing. It seems that what Dr. Greg Bahnsen rightly dubbed “the apparent paradox of self deception” is made very plain by these Mormons words. - Honestly, it’s heart wrenching to see sincere hard working men try so hard to live in Gods world, borrow so much capital from the Christian worldview, and then use it to invent their own fanciful pseudo-philosophical justifications to reject God & His word. - Daniel & Oscar nailed it when they said that they’re (Hayden & Jacob) reduced to absurdity, they want to rely on probability where it’s faith promoting and positive, but seem to discount things that aren’t faith promoting and negative to their paradigm. How arbitrary. - It’s no wonder then that scripture says about men such as these: “22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (Romans 1:22, ESV) - May the Lord of glory that whose Words you now revile & whose self-attestation about Himself whom you repudiate, show you that He is rich in mercy, by (hopefully) granting you both a saving faith & repentance of your sins & your mormon idolatry & blasphemy of the Holy God.

[@kuemua]

TEST OF A PROPHET:THE BIBLE VS JOSEPH SMITH youtu.be/FrqkaKz_S And The Bible vs. the book of mormon kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHK5nKaXmpJ5qM0 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 3)"But I fear, least by any means as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from simplicity that is in Christ. 4)For if that he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS whom we have not preached, or if ye received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted,ye might will bear with him." Galatians 1:9 If anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed

[@twicegod9160]

@@bricksandconcretedo you genuinely believe that Native Americans descend from Jews?

[@FirstnameLastname-tp4zw]

Beware of the beLIEve in the middle. Lie&Die. If it's not something a child can learn it's not something my gODD would teach. People that write this much have clear issues as well. People like this are responsible for the bible. The very thought of the word god is a devil minded thing.👍🥰

[@zacharymcleod460]

I completely agree! Thanks for not disregarding real evidence and disregarding stupid "evidence".

[@zacharymcleod460]

@@FirstnameLastname-tp4zw Look for Truth with as little bias as you can. "Truth is not afraid of questions, debates, and challenges. It welcomes scrutiny and emerges stronger from the fires of discourse. Falsehood, on the other hand, fears the light of inquiry and crumbles under the weight of truth." - Unknown "If it's not something a child can learn it's not something my gODD would teach." That is not true. There are millions of children can't learn even the simplest of concepts.

[@William_The_Lesser]

Debating a Calvinist is like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory

[@ChiefCedricJohnson]

Proverbs 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

[@randoman33]

As a 49-year-old Mormon who quit going 6 years ago... I would love to have one of the Mormon debate guys reach out to me. I see one major flaw in both sides: Apologia uses circular reasoning logical fallacies. Mormons use a spiritual witness logical fallacy. For every Mormon including me who felt that I received a witness that the Mormon church is true... I could line up a hundred Christians, Muslims, and Jews who by that exact same litmus test believes their faith is the only true faith. I would love to have a deep dive discussion with any of the debaters tonight. I don't even mind coming on KZbin or any other venue.

[@davehigginson6126]

Bless your heart. For someone who seems to consider himself pretty logical, your example of a "spiritual witness logical fallacy" is already flawed. Just because others claim something similar, doesn't necessarily mean the original claim can't be true for others. You probably have no idea if what other people experience is the same or not, even if they're using the same language. And, many of them may not even be "testing" whether or not their's is the only true Church but have simply received a spiritual witness of the truths that they do believe (all of whom, do have elements of truth). Additional proof of your flawed logic is your own example. You claimed to have received a witness and yet now no longer believe, which means either you never understood what a spiritual witness was in the first place (a lot of people confuse emotion with the Spirit) or, you've simply come to deny your witness because of, likely, personal reasons. You should have held on longer.

[@randoman33]

@@thekolobsociety That would be awesome.. Do you have a KZbin channel? Your debate was amazing. Best LDS debater I've heard.

[@randoman33]

@@ruckin3 I appreciate your witness. But if you do a deep dive into Church priesthood history with Joseph Smith .. your conviction of priesthood authority may change.

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

@@ruckin3 Why is there more hope? Biblical Christianity gives us the complete hope.

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

@@ruckin3 When you say "bible" do you mean the old testament mostly? The new testament is vastly more important to us.

[@patrioticwoody]

1:21:15 That statement would affirm the entire Catholic Bible canon, as the Septuagint contains books that would've been considered scripture in the time of Christ but is rejected by most Protestants and confuses what would be considered scripture.

[@RoyceGonzales-mz2gn]

At 1:48:10 as a Christian i dont agree with The Christian's guys or protestants when they say, they dont Believe that God wants to save everyone,,that to me thats wrong and i say that with this scripture backed up by what i believe "‭2 Peter 3:9 [9] The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. " God does want everyone to repent believe and be saved ,,, Salvation is to everyone thru Christ Jesus, Jesus died for everyone and anyone,,, unfortunately not everyone will be saved kr will receive salvation,,, because many will reject The Gospel that can saved them,,, but to say that God doesn't want everyone to be saved is a false belief!!!

[@isaacmathews4693]

It's fascinating to hear both sides. A lot to consider. Thank you!

[@klaahklee7663]

Watch this video on KZbin If you like debate and to would like more information "TEST OF PROPHET: BIBLE VS JOSEPH SMITH " God bless

[@robinsonnier6887]

There's only one thing to consider.... Jesus is the only Way to God. You must be born again. You must live a righteous life. Read the Bible!! There's no need for any other book!

[@IAMBENNYBLANCO.]

​@@robinsonnier6887amen!!!! Nothing to consider from the mormons as they are clearly a false religion and cult using the Word of God as an umbrella to mask their false interpretations always adding to what the Bible has already established.

[@sandersthornburgh127]

@@robinsonnier6887 As a Christian who is an ex-Mormon, I have to admit that the LDS debater's argument against Sola Scriptura & scriptural infallibility is airtight and rock solid. Beyond that, the LDS claim to be the restored Church falls apart completely in other areas. Yet, they are absolutely right that Sola Scriptura & biblical infallibility are man-made doctrines which are ironically not even supported by the 66 books of the Protestant Canon.

[@goldstinger325]

​@robinsonnier6887 As someone who grew up around plenty of mormons, the closer they are to "exaltation", the more arrogant they become, and the more they will hate you and block you out for trying to find truth of God and spread it. They will shut down when presented with the false prophecies of Joseph Smith. They will try to reword everything and will do the most insane mental gymnastics to defend a conman who did nothing but lead millions astray, guided by Satan.

[@1971phenom]

I am a Christian pastor. I have been preaching for 25 years. With this being said, I MUST say that the Christian side of this argument FAILED TREMENDOUSLY. Mormons, you clearly won this debate by a landslide.

[@1971phenom]

@@thekolobsociety Sect? Lol what kind of question is that? Their arguments are extremely weak because their only stance is that “the Bible says so.” They are bringing their “faith” to a THEOLOGICAL conversation. You can’t do that. God is not the God of Christians. God is not the God of the Bible. God is the God of all. God is the God of creation. God is the God of the universe at large. God existed as God LONG before Christianity existed (millions of years before). God existed LONG before the Bible was even thought of (millions of years before). Authentic relationship with God and humanity existed long before Christianity and the Bible (for millions of years). Christianity is only ALMOST 2,000 years old. That is a completely microscopic time period in the scope of God and humanity having authentic divine relationship. Because of these facts, There are far more truths and realities about God and our relationship with God that are OUTSIDE of Christianity and the Bible… and BEFORE Christianity and the Bible. God is immeasurable. So, if God is no bigger than what Christian thought says ABOUT God, then Christian thought has REPLACED God. Point blank period. But MY GOD is BIGGER than all things!!!!!! And I REFUSE to put my BIG GOD on the same level and plane as ANYTHING… INCLUDING CHRISTIANITY. (Disclaimer: This does not mean that I feel that Christianity is not a real way to have an authentic relationship with God. I believe that Christianity is a true and authentic way to connect to God. But because God is SO MASSIVE and cannot be confined to finite human thought or ideas, I do not believe that Christianity and the Bible are the ONLY rubrics by which the realities of God can be measured. There are faith traditions outside of Christianity and the Bible that are just as real and authentic.) So my question to you is simply this: DO YOU KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT GOD???? Surely your answer is, “NO.” So then since your answer is, “NO,” then you MUST be able to leave room for there to be true possibilities of authentic realities and relationship with God OUTSIDE of what YOU believe. If not, then you have COMPLETELY REPLACED GOD with your beliefs ABOUT God.

[@Bojack764]

I feel like I just watched a debate on free will vs Calvinism 😂

[@jdubb6557]

The Great Debate series is BACK!!!! No way LETS GOO!!!!!

[@raphaelmordo3022]

Interesting debate, I did enjoy listening to it and appreciated each persons time and effort. Often it was difficult to feel the Holy Spirit. The apparent confidence of the presenters at times lacked humility. I believe God is the authority; not fallible man’s interpretation of His word. God (My personal Savior) did not live, He lives! God did not speak, He speaks today!

[@theitguy2731]

So when God speaks to you how to you know it is your Creator and not Satan deceiving you?

[@devonmarr9872]

@@theitguy2731 ask to shake his hand. A spirit will decline, a being with a body will, and Satan will claim he will but your hand will go through him.

[@theitguy2731]

@@devonmarr9872 What are you even talking about?

[@devonmarr9872]

@@theitguy2731 You asked that if God or an angel appeared to you how to communicate with them.

[@theitguy2731]

@@devonmarr9872 Right but I just didn't understand how anything you said made sense. The devil will shake your hand. Demons will shake ur hand.

[@byronmiller5103]

All I know is that I've been listening spiritually along with studying scripture all my life. Consequently. I have had prayers answered, experienced unexplained protection, been healed by my loving minister, and healed human suffering on many occasions. Covid almost did me in but I came through. My heavenly Father is always with me. Theological arguments are useless.

[@justin10292000]

Amen and amen and amen!

[@matthewcarl5112]

I praise His holy name, accept his acceptance of me, and surrender my life to him.

[@jmorra]

What a bizarre discussion. I am a simple man: I trust an ancient text , which was written around the time of Jesus, and I distrust made-up nonsense from a sex fiend who claimed he could read hieroglyphics. Calvinism is a real topic, but pales in comparison.

[@truthgiverandfinder3246]

Be careful how you do it because these mos like to Gaslight.

[@larryjake7783]

@@truthgiverandfinder3246 what does mos mean?

[@carlosmembreno7831]

What? Mormons were the ones who brought up Calvinism

[@truthgiverandfinder3246]

@@larryjake7783 mormons shortened. So mos yes.