Jeff Rowland M125 vs Vidar 2 power amp comparison.

[@ferchizzle]

More of these please. There’s not enough of these on KZbin.

[@nelsono4315]

I am the very happy owner of the Jeff Rowland M125 amp. I don't have the resources to splurge on the super high end equipment that I drool over but the JR gives me a very nice taste of that. It's my most expensive piece of gear but for me it was worth every penny.

[@Drackleyrva]

What preamp do you have?

[@nelsono4315]

@@Drackleyrva I have the Schiit Freya Plus which I use in tube mode. My previous power amp was the Carver M500t which I still have but am not using.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Ive sold 24 Model 125 amps into the market without ONE return.. People are not even selling them to "Upgrade", and I give 80% credit on purchase price.. The Rowland 125 is the "entry" into REAL High End... Jeff has 50 years design experience.. Whoa ! I just heard you say my name .... lol... Im glad you can see where Im coming from !! Cheers !!

[@drde4010]

OCD Mike in the house 🏡!

[@labalo5]

Mikey is the f’in man!! These JRs are looking better every time, especially when it’s mentioned from genuine folk.

[@intrinsicfreedom]

With all due respect, you offer a constrained view of high end. There are many beautiful pieces available for far less than the Rowland 125. For example, check out Decware and Raven Audio, and there are MANY others; I'm not here to sell anything, except an idea or two. There are so many pieces out there that offer incredible high-end value at less than Rowland prices. I'm glad you like your product and I'm glad others do as well, but there are many pathways into the "REAL High End" hobby these days, and it's not like it once was where you could say more dollars equaled and was required for better sound. I don't have skin in this game, except my love of music (although I also appreciate my equipment), and I don't like to see people throw money into the wind. For example, I NEVER had a component seller BOLD, HIGHLIGHT AND UNDERSCORE the importance of room treatment. Improvements to room sonices/reflections can EASILY transform a system. If you are not dealing with ROOM REFLECTIONS, you can sell people tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and the sound will never achieve what it could with a number of homemade panels complementing a more modest set of components. Indeed, the result can be fairly disappointing. No Rowland amp is going to resolve issues coming from reflective walls, ceilings, floors and other reflective furnishings. I know you need to make a living and you love what you do - no doubt- but it's just not the same as older days. Everyone who is serious about high end should be studying their "room reflections." This is not a difficult thing to address, and you do not need a team of scientists to help you in many room scenarios.

[@drde4010]

@@intrinsicfreedom Hi, I think you should take a closer look at many of my previous videos in various rooms with affordable gear before you apply the constrained thought of mind. You will see that I've used Decware in many videos as well as many others that are equally good and better. Nearly all my videos are about great value, not the other way around. The M125's are merely a high end amp I thought would be nice to share. Take a look at the channel and scroll through the videos and see for yourself. I agree with you on the importance of room treatment though. There are are two treatment panels along the side and rear of each speaker in this video. There are none above but I do feel the quality of the video sound came through quite discernible. Thanks for the comments.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@intrinsicfreedom Does Decware have any amps with balls yet ? Great American made stuff, but was always underpowered, using tubes like EL84 and low wattage, low slew rate designs. In other words for high efficiency speakers only... What you are talking about is Value audio.. Low price stuff.... Nothing wrong with value product but Rowland is not that nor does it claim to be. Many of us have the means to buy $50K plus systems and Decware or Raven dont fit into that. Its like saying People should not buy Jaguar because a less expensive Dodge exists with the same effect. Driving in traffic back and forth to work... Rowland is a Luxury product and there are many Luxury buyers out there. Some designers are not motivated by making "Low price leader" products.. The Chinese have everyone beat, ass out on that one anyways.. For Jeff to make a sub $5K amp is an absolute triumph and gift to Luxury buyers globally... Look, either you get it or you dont.. Its no big deal.. dr D E just got it and hes sharing his excitement... No foul here...

[@clarencehoover6748]

M125 sounds cleaner, more transparent and dynamic. The Vidar sounds darker, smokey and veiled by comparison. Thanks for the discussion and head-to-head audio demos.

[@vegaslimoguy2376]

I would hope so for 3500 dollars more! Sheesh

[@mikewolfe9458]

Very cool setup and video! Here are some time stamps if people want to jump between sound samples quickly: M125 Single Stereo: 5:27 Vidar 2 Single Stereo: 6:43 M125 Dual Mono: 8:02

[@jonathanthomas4722]

I'd love to have that model 125, or two! But it'd cost me $4,100 for one model 125, $8,200 for two, whereas a single Vidar 2 is $800. Honestly, I'm surprised how well the Vidar 2 actually presents in this comparison. Great video, Dr. D!

[@drde4010]

Thank you. Yea, it's interesting to hear how a budget amp compares to a boutique amp.

[@SlimSh8E]

Having my pair of Vidar 2's set up in monoblock configuration for only about a week, I was somewhat disappointed to come across this comparison with the M125 winning out............................until I realized that my two Vidars, the Freya Plus, the LRS Plus and the Denon CD player are about the same price as one M125. Probably the best sounding system I've ever owned, unless or until I win the lottery. LOL! :)

[@drde4010]

Absolutely! What you have is a tremendous value and I have no doubt you're enjoying the music.

[@vcp93]

Yeah, not hard to believe an $8k set of amps beat out one $800 amp. Not sure what the point of the comparison was.

[@intrinsicfreedom]

A lot of "stereo" is a mind game. I highly recommend you put time into your room, treating all of the 1st reflection points, both on the side walls, overhead, etc. The sound difference when you soak up reflections quickly and cost effectively can take a system forward by a HUGE leap. This is particularly cost effective if you make sound absorbers yourself. There are many good videos online to help with this. Beware making endless upgrades before you have made significant improvements to your room. By the way, the Freya Plus is widely regarded as a "giant killer." Playing around a little with tubes can greatly complement other components in your system. If you want to soften glare, there are tubes that will complement glare. If you want to intensify detail, there are tubes that will intensify detail. Many people are studying tubes with respect to your well known Freya Plus, so it should not be difficult to find use commentary on possible tube rolls that enhance your system. The LRS plus is a marvel speaker from all I've heard. You really have exceptional equipment for the price point. Enjoy what you have! I understand you do want to have the LRS plus considerably off the wall for best results... Best of luck to you. Music is a blessing.

[@jonathandavis9507]

Vidar is a Corvette, M125 is a Ferrari.

[@SlimSh8E]

@@intrinsicfreedom Yes music is a blessing and a great joy in my life. Thanks for the advice, much of which I have already begun to consider. I get a lot of information from KZbin and Paul of PS Audio seems to have a good handle on things and agrees with your assessment to consider room treatment before spending a lot of money. As is my usual MO, I studied the hi-fi landscape for quite some time before making my choices and I feel quite satisfied. My good friend of many decades who shares my love of all things musically related just put a pair of $75K speakers in his vacation home and his primary residence is equally equipped. It is a welcome luxury if you can afford it, but the law of diminishing returns leaves me quite satisfied that I have done well considering my budget. I just ordered a set of new tubes yesterday to explore the differences, so I would say your advice has been good all around.

[@tee-jaythestereo-bargainph2120]

I think the schiit Tyr monoblock will be better comparsion at 55 pounds each and still cheaper 😊 thanks for the video '

[@pizzaearthpancakesandother2549]

Many people think their Schiit doesn't stink, and they are correct my friends

[@veritasfan11]

Jeff Rowland M125 gets my vote but without the comparison they both sound really good id be happy with either one.

[@skip1835]

I don't think you mentioned the MSRP's. Thanks for the comparisons - I certainly appreciate the sound demos.

[@dickdeveraux]

Vidar 2 - $799 M125 - $4100

[@3erik11]

The Vidar 2 is $800. 2 M125’s are $8600. Were they really 11x better?

[@drde4010]

Schiit Vidar 2 has been added for frame of reference. M125 is 125 watts per channel into 8ohm and 250 watts into 4ohm. Vidar 2 is 100 watts per channel into 8ohm and 200 watts into 4ohm. Please adjust volume accordingly with earbuds or headphones if needed for sound demos.

[@robertburton295]

Wish you could have compared it to schiits mono block trs

[@zackw4941]

Wow, to me the step from Vidar to stereo 125 wasn't as big as the step to dual mono 125. At least the way the recording tells the tale, the dual mono setup really opened up the presentation and sounded a lot more live. But Vidar is what, $800 new? And fairly plentiful on the used market. They well built and an incredible value for the money. I own a Vidar 1 that I acquired from a friend who bought it used and it's in perfect condition. At the time, I hooked up to my Emotiva TA-1 and it was a revelation, driving my JBL Studio 580's. Today I'm running upgraded Tekton Moabs with a Parasound JC5. Every part of my system is on another planet from the Vidar and JBL setup. But at 25% the cost, there are plenty of days I wish I stayed put and were smarter with my money instead.

[@drde4010]

Yea, I agree, the Vidar is an incredible value. I currently use it with my LRS Plus and love how it mates.

[@flashhog01]

Great video, nice system!

[@sonusancti]

Nice video. What drivers did you use in your OBs? Would love to try those. Yeah, OCD Mike is dependably honest. The 125 is among the earliest Class D amps in the market and the Lundahl isolation transformers contribute significantly to its sound.

[@drde4010]

Lii Audio thank you

[@warrenwillis6477]

In your opinion, which of these two sounds best when listening at lower volumes? Also, how hot do they get when they been on for a while? Thanks for the comparison.

[@drde4010]

Hi, that's a good question. First, they all run quite cool, so no worries there at all. I was talking to my hifi buddy about that. I always like to know how nicely an amp sounds at lower listening levels. With my Aretha preamp hooked to my Vidar 2 while listening to the Maggie LRS plus at low volume, the Vidar already more than enough revealing, so it's hard to say if one needs more for every speaker at low volume. The Rowland's are more revealing at low volume when the two are compared. Even so, I still find myself pleasantly surprised at how well the Vidar 2 plays at lower volume but the M125's are an endgame amp. One amp is more than enough power.

[@warrenwillis6477]

Thanks…

[@JingoLoBa57]

Thinking out aloud… How might these compare with the PassLabs XA25 that I owned before It was an iron grip on my PMC Twenty26 but not strong for my MB2SE despite stronger sensitivity. There are obvious limits even to class A… and total watts. Even low powered tubes have similar power limits.

[@heathb1840]

Crazy how much better the M125 sounded.

[@vegaslimoguy2376]

Well for 3500 dollars more, it should!

[@taho88]

I wonder how the sound from the Peach Tree Gan 1 would compare to the M125. Different sort of beast in many ways in regards to connectivity but still very curious as it would mean just two components in your system. The amp and a streamer. Basically zero reviews with any comparisons still exist for that amp.

[@drde4010]

I'd love to hear some PeachTree's, I've heard wonderful things about them. I don't know anyone with them.

[@vegaslimoguy2376]

​@@drde4010Checkout Audio Pursuit.

[@gleamtarrest6310]

Awesome... what DAC are you running?

[@drde4010]

DA-512DSD-2-Super www.thebestamp.com/DA_Converters_USB-DACs/DA-512DSD-2.php

[@chelillingworth9466]

So I do bristle a little bit when I see class D amplifiers, using prefab modules and probably switching power supplies costing over $4,000 each. I am sure they sound great and they do have the beautiful faceplates but I struggle with the value there. On another note, I would love to hear this open baffle setup! Also, really curious how your Dynaco would sound with these.

[@drde4010]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqWsf62pfs2cjrs. Yes, I brought the new ST70 over and it also sounds beautiful. It was a warmer rendering of the music.

[@jc51373]

Class D has VERY much arrived...GanFet sounds as good as any Class A amp. AGD is on the leading edge, and so is Rowland.

[@s.daniel9224]

When the new, bright, shiny, expensive stuff is more important then the listening experience. Y’all would love the boating industry…you can drop name-brands for days.

[@Drackleyrva]

Great video---I love the JR amps. Maybe one of these days. What brand is that audio rack?? Very nice!

[@drde4010]

Those stands were custom made.

[@vcp93]

Not sure this is a big surprise. They're not really comparable amps. One of the JR amps is more than 4x the price of the Vidar, right? Nice gear, BTW. 👽👍

[@drde4010]

Agreed, it's just for others to get a frame of reference between top products vs mass market.

[@TheCharlesAtoz]

Dr D- Did you buy the Jeff Rowland's from OCD?

[@drde4010]

No, my friend Bob got them because they were for sale online, used in mint condition. I'm sure Bob would have liked to work with OCD though. OCD tells it like it is.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Charles, he bought them from a guy who bought them from me... ;-)

[@AT-wl9yq]

You're really not setting the Rowlands up for best sound quality. Bridging a stereo amp is not the same as a mono amp. Its a bridged stereo amp. You should only bridge an amp if you really need to, like if the speakers are being starved for power and really need more. A better sounding approach would be to leave the Rowlands running in stereo mode, and set them up in a vertical biamp configuration. The problem with bridging is it alters the resistance the amp sees when connected to the same load running in stereo. The difference is half. So a 4 ohm speaker is now a 2 ohm speaker. Your amp now has to work twice as hard to do the same work it did in stereo mode. A vertical biamp will give you better sound quality, where in a bridged system, the best you can hope for is to not notice any loss in sound quality. If you think you may need to bridge for more power, you're better off buying a more powerful amp to start with.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Its true....but hard if the speakers have only one set of posts..

[@AT-wl9yq]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Don't you have some show to be at? You just had to point that out, didn't you? If the speakers only have one set of binding post's, I guess you may have a point.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@AT1272 May have a point ??? Lol. You can't do it otherwise. It's an absolute and it's definitive. I'm guessing your first sentence is you being a smart ass...

[@AT-wl9yq]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Thank you. I can't believe someone finally noticed. For a long time now I've been working hard to overcome my status as a dumb ass. There were times when I thought I'd never work my way up to smart ass. If it came from anyone else, I wouldn't believe it.

[@riccitone]

Wow…outstanding amp! Your beautiful system make the difference super clear. What design is that for your open baffle speakers? 🙏🏼

[@drde4010]

Thanks. This system is my friends. The open baffle designs are done using a digital program. I’ll be doing a video on it soon with some new open baffles that we haven’t shown yet.

[@nc3419]

Are there pre amps at reasonable costs that would still bring essentially the best performance the JR 125 offers? I know speakers, dac, etc also come into play, but are there preamps "new" say around or less than $1,500 that would do this? The amp would likely be the most expensive gear, as some probably can attest. Would like to maintain the stage depth most of all.

[@drde4010]

You need a preamp that takes XLR cables and that may be a harder one to match properly. I’d bet OCD hifi Guy would know better on that one in that price range.

[@allanlee8275]

As I know that M125 is XLR input, please advise how to connect D Sachs preamp to M125?

[@drde4010]

The Don S only has an XLR input so the only way is to use RCA to XLR cables which is how we did it.

[@CarlVanDoren61]

Ran W4S mAMP's 420w@4ohms (D)with LRS Did ok, upped game to AB 350w@4ohms 😊

[@MichaelLivingston-me]

Listening yo your music samples, it's difficult to tell the difference. I couldn't say with a double - blind test that I could tell you which one is better to the ear. The pocket book says, there's a significant difference, so the scale definitely tips in the Vidar 2 favor. There's no way to recreate the sound stage of your room in mine. When you played the M125 in mono, I believe I heard more bite, a little more presence (in a good - not over emphasized way), with the saxophone 🎷 I'm sure I could tell much more if I was there.

[@theomindschrddr7983]

Maby the Gato pwr222 monoblocks, i have now the Mark levinson 532h, and i'm thinking of chancing it for the Gato's

[@labalo5]

The JRs got more presence.

[@vegaslimoguy2376]

Yeah, especially through youtube and then to your setup! Its called, all in your head buddy, oh and a 3500 dollar difference, definately more presence! Gtfooh

[@andrewfurst5711]

So the Rowland costs 5x as much as the Vidar 2, and that's a fair comparison?

[@drde4010]

The purpose of the review was to give others a chance to hear the difference between a premium amplifier to a more affordable amplifier.

[@stoicar]

Best wishes from Romania! If you can listen a purifi based power amp with weiss or sparkos tray to have a listen

[@fredjohnson9856]

I don't get why you are comparing an $800 amp to a pair of $4k amps??

[@drde4010]

Because it lets others understand the difference between something expensive and something that is not. Is it worth spending the extra money or not and listeners can try to judge for themselves

[@kenwk2283]

U like these better than first watt F8? Thanks

[@drde4010]

They’re both absolutely wonderful. Couldn’t go wrong with either if the F8 is enough to drive the speaker.

[@scottlowell493]

Thd vidar will not be a serious contender for me until it's 4 ohm stable. Speakers are almost never a stable 8 ohm load. Impedence dips, especially at lower frequencies. It's the reason I returned my vidar (1). Simply, it wasn't driving my speakers correctly. It sounded strained and vague/dark.

[@drde4010]

@@scottlowell493 I agree it isn’t very good for 4 ohm loads.

[@scottlowell493]

@@drde4010 especially when it’s a hard 4 ohm like some European speakers, or some vintage that aren’t super efficient.

[@drde4010]

@@scottlowell493 I had to let mine go because it was starting to have trouble running my magnepans.

[@Jack96993]

If you have Maggie's you will need 2 M125 Have a listen to My Romance by Rudy Gelder remastered for amazing sax playing Would be interesting to throw in the VTV amplifier Stereo Purifi Audio 1ET7040SA High Power Dual Mono for a comparison

[@drde4010]

I'm surprised because even the Vidar 2 on it's own has less power and appears to drive the Maggies, with ease but in your defense, it's all relative. Thanks for sharing.

[@Jack96993]

@@drde4010 Now there's an interesting prospect Driving the Maggie's with one M125 vs two M125

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Ive driven a pair of Magnepan .7 into oblivion with a single M125.. so LRS+ no problem.

[@look8234]

The sound of the two monoblocks is more dense.

[@ibrahimhakim6232]

Her me out! Pro tip for less wealthy out there; If someone has an idea to compare those two units and not even give a Vidar chance to play in mono… It means only one thing. I’ll take 2 Vidar’s every time, than I know I have great system and 7000$ in my pocket left!

[@brikaf6001]

Agreed Rowland sounds much better, schiit sounds dull

[@Dr.Richard_Kimble]

Is the Jeff Rowland class D?

[@drde4010]

Yes but OCD Mike explains it better on his channel.

[@drde4010]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqWsf62pfs2cjrs

[@joseph-ow1hf]

$800 vs $4100? Seriously? Howabout a comparison of the Vidar to the Odyssey Khartago @ $1K?

[@drde4010]

You’re not the first to mention this. The purpose was to show the differences between an affordable amp vs a more exotic amp to help others who may wonder what it’s like.

[@joseph-ow1hf]

I understand that......and it perfectly points out the law of diminishing returns. But that's why I would think it would be more helpful to look at would the extra $200 for the Odyssey or similar get you something better or not. I picked up a Vidar 1. I think vocals on it sound gritty. I even sent back to factory for repair and they said nothing wrong. Which is a shame, as I think it's pretty and like its small form factor as I use on desktop rig w/ Merlin TSM-MMe. Plus, it can't push a Maggie LRS to any decent volume without overheating and shutting down, even w/ 65hz high pass filters in place.Not a knock on Schiit. I'm quite pleased w/ Bifrost 2. (Though someday will get an prolly get an ANK for main system.) Lot's of people love the Vidar.....maybe just my ears.@@drde4010

[@freeradical6390]

Mono vs single? I think you ment mono-bridged vs stereo- unbridged. I wish my Emerald physics 200.2se was in the comparison. cool vid! ps- you should replace that tv with an American flag. It would certainly look better.

[@drde4010]

I should have clarified that. Thanks for sharing.

[@intrinsicfreedom]

It's like taking the High School arm wrestling champ, Vidar, and pitting him again TWO college arm wrestling champions, Jeff & Rowland, and declaring the latter stronger and THE "models" for arm wrestling strength. Very strange indeed. Why don't you bring in some actual competition for your product? There are many MANY "value" products that easily compete with this $8000.00 amplifier setup. This is a truly strange comparison, ONE Vidar vs. TWO M125's. The Vidar is popular, so I guess you are drawing on that audience. Makes sense from a marketing angle only. Many people own the Vidar and they are amazing for the price, but the same company, Schiit, has at least two other amps that would compare much more favorably with the Rowland M125 that you are selling. Bring Aegir! Bring Tyr! to the battle! Also, the speakers you selected recommend an amplifier in the 25-50 watt range, so pushing HUNDREDS of watts per channel is hardly part of the actual sonic equation, the resulting sound experience. You also run subwoofers, so again, the huge watts of the M125 in mono configuration is irrelevant; as you know, with an efficient setup as you have in your demo it is unlikely that a person is going to use more than a few watts for average listening levels in a medium sized room. A much more interesting comparison would be to run and compare the M125 to the Schiit Aegir, which already reaches the bottom end wattage requirement of the speakers you are using. Realtime tests of the Aegir conclude the amp pushes 26 watts per channel and you can run it in MONO mode for 80 watts per channel, all for under $2000.00. Yes, I do know that some people only feel they are getting value if they spend much more than what the average person is going to spend, so they may feel they need to spend $8000 for the setup you have presented as "winner" over the 'weaker' Vidar. Again, the comparison is made even more strange by the fact of presenting TWO of the high cost Rowland amps vs. ONE Vidar. Consider also that there exists for sale the Schiit Tyr, specifically designed as a MONOBLOCK amplifier, pushing 200 watts per channel and 350 in 4 ohms, and I would have to conclude given my prolonged wanderings through the lands of audio that they easily meet or beat your M125 by Jeff Rowland. Your speakers are 8 ohm, so they would only call out 200 watts (max) from the Tyr's, and output at full 200 watt volume would rip the head off (or at least the ears) the average listener in a few short listening sessions. The praise for the Schiit Aegir is also far and wide -read the Stereophile review on the Aegir. It's an impressive piece. Here's the review on the Aegir: www.stereophile.com/content/schiit-audio-aegir-power-amplifier The idea that the M125 is "THE" entry into "REAL" High End is yet another example of manipulation through marketing tactics. Air and soundstage, by the way, are not the sole property of the amplifier. Indeed, if you haven't spent enough time on room treatments and speaker position, you could have the most amazing components (preamp, amp, DAC) in the world and not hear AIR, nor experience a solid or expansive soundstage. Inexpensive systems CAN produce AIR, serious realism and soundstage IF they are tuned correctly.

[@FZappaFan1]

Very well stated. I wonder if I could get your opinion (or anyone else of knowledge). I'm looking at Heresy iv, powered by the Vidar (single) with the Freya+ as a preamp.

[@intrinsicfreedom]

Much will depend on your room and how you treat the walls, etc. Heresy IV is a highly efficient set of speakers, only needing a handful of watts. You can literally run the heresy on five watts, or even two or three for most applications. Setup is huge with the klipsch. My intuition is that the Vidar could come through a bit strident with heresy IV, but if your room can absorb reflections effectively you may not face the harshness that could be a risk with the setup your propose. Tube selectoin is another piece of the puzzle you are working out. You can likely roll tubes that soften some of the edge that a Vidar/Heresy combo might synergize. @@FZappaFan1

[@FZappaFan1]

@@intrinsicfreedom Thank you! I appreciate your input.

[@pholelamapeyi4589]

i thought mono means single ... when there's two...its dual ..!! ....

[@donpayne1040]

Jeffs

[@drde4010]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i5u3eoGDp7dsaM0 kzbin.info/www/bejne/gqWsf62pfs2cjrs

[@edhuslik]

Ridiculous comparison. Schitt Tyr monoblocks should have been used.

[@Rascallucci]

No comparison whatsoever.