Jefferson vs. Hamilton

This is a clip from the HBO series "John Adams" It depicts a conversation between President Washington's cabinet members Alexander Hamilton (Treasury Sec.) and recently returned from France and Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson, regarding Hamilton's proposed assumption of the revolutionary war debts of the individual States under the authority of the Federal government and the formation of a National bank. Effectively these are some of the fundamental and foundational ideological differences between the origins of the Democrat (known at the time as "Federalist") and Republican ("Democratic-Republican") parties.

[@CaptWarChief]

George Washington is such a powerful figure here. He's not the smartest in the room, and he is soft spoken. But when he stands up to say something, everyone will shut up and listen. Really shows the respect and the reverence everyone had for him.

[@gabrielegenota1480]

One of the most admirable qualities of a strong leader is their ability to shut up and listen.

[@paulriccitelli9179]

Read Chernow’s Pulitzer Prize winning book on Washington… he was a genius

[@prede89]

He was smart enough to know to get smart people to advise him

[@largemouthbass355]

@@prede89 this is correct, he was wise and had humility. He was NOT the smartest man in the room (in this scene, he’s the 4th smartest). But Smart people can be idealistic. ideologues can be dangerous. Rulers are judged more by who they keep around them.

[@RedDawn370]

Wisdom Trumps intelligence. Washington shows this better than most.

[@lindaeasley5606]

"Our first step is to incur a national debt" At least there's one idea from a founding fathers that the US has remained faithful to

[@johnroscoe2406]

You think it sounds bad because you don't know what it meant.

[@r.c.auclair2042]

Not entirely true. For periods in the first half century, there were times America had no debt & no deficit. The last president of the United States when we had no debt or deficit was Andrew Jackson, when we last went into debt in 1837. Ever since, we've had at least one or the other & usually both. It may be Jackson's one redeeming quality.

[@evansquilt]

@@r.c.auclair2042 - yeah, the Panic of 1819 was such a sweet, sweet time for everyone. Did you ever even take an economics class? Or try to get a car loan or a mortgage with no credit history? Hamilton was absolutely right.

[@richarda29]

@@evansquilt, and the panic of 1819 occurred BEFORE 1823. It has nothing to do with the statement that America hasn’t been debt free since, & I never said that the first half century was perfect.

[@richarda29]

@@evansquilt, I aced macroeconomics & was an actuary at Central United Life before 9/11. And I’ve never applied for a car loan, since my disability doesn’t permit driving. I’ve never applied a mortgage, either. Neither of those has anything to do with what I’ve said. And Hamilton established the nation’s credit system. That also doesn’t dispute the fact America’s had a national debt since 1823.

[@VotePaineJefferson]

I must admit Mr. Hamilton, I'm a little uncertain as to the purpose of fast food. No doubt its function will reveal itself to me in good time.

[@EpicMRPancake]

If men were angels, no nuggets would be necessary.

[@sirmortrainey]

"If the people are forced to work part-time to finance their college years, it increases the wealth of the fast food CEOs." "You have it exactly. ... The greater the CEOs' responsibilities, the greater their authority." "Hm. The fast food interest in this country rests mostly at McDonalds. So the wealth and power would inevitably be concentrated there with the board of directors... to the expense of the students." "If that is the case, then it is unavoidable if capitalism is to be preserved." "I fear our revolution would have been in vain if a student were indebted to a fast food overlord, who would in turn be indebted to a government in China. ... The opportunities for... avarice and corruption would certainly prove irresistible." "Well there you have. As I've heard it said, if men were angels no nuggets would be necessary."

[@CLASSICALFAN100]

"Ask my assistant, Mr. Ronald McDonald."...(ROFL)

[@michaelbisagno932]

@@sirmortrainey that was pretty well thought out but we have way more problems than just college price, you all should have learned about that its not worth anymore especially when you will never be able to pay it off. We need to stop our government from printing money it doesn't actually have, we do that and all the problems you mentioned and more go away.

[@swfan4195]

@@sirmortrainey when u put it that way it shows how smart Jefferson was, all of our problems come from having overlords who act as if they are our representatives

[@hypnometal]

It's amazing how Adams was ready to step in and actively pursue a balance between Jefferson and Hamilton. And also how Washington just sat quietly and observed.

[@KikomochiMendoza]

Washington was first and foremost a general, a fighter for his countrymen while Adams was a mediator and an advocate due to his background as a lawyer.

[@anoon-]

Washington had no idea how to level the two egos.

[@doesnotreallymatterr]

Washington hated politics. we today don't really understand how lucky newborn USA was to have Washington and not any other Founding Father as first serving President, people of his traits and humble nature, rarely rise to power, especially to it's very top, dude came as a President, if he wanted to, he could most probably secure that spot way longer than just 2 terms, but he stepped down and made an example that politics and power, are a tool, but not a goal, he truly was a man of ideals, which's why, he'll always stay the greatest president of USA.

[@RLucas3000]

Why did Washington treat Adams so shabbily here? Wasn’t Adams the VP?

[@hypnometal]

@@RLucas3000 I don’t see how Washington treated Adam’s shabby here. It’s just that Washington was quiet and reserved while Adams was certainly happy to fill the silence.

[@heathercollingwood2638]

And this is why Washington resigned. So he wouldn't have to deal with these two any more.

[@briansheehan3430]

Washington favored Hamilton over Jefferson. Not only because Washington agreed more with the Federalists, but because of the personal relationship between the two when Hamilton served as Washington's aide-de-camp during the Revolutionary War.

[@eyuin5716]

@@briansheehan3430 Hamilton would have made a great president had he lived.

[@briansheehan5256]

@@eyuin5716 He would have indeed. By far our greatest Founding Father.

[@croationz]

@@briansheehan5256 idiots, Hamilton was a sheep in wolves clothing, the worst of the founders.

[@briansheehan5256]

@@croationz Care to elaborate?

[@timothykammerer7622]

Jefferson: "I had recently visited France, and it went through it's twelfth revolution the month I had arrived."

[@donwayne1357]

South American countries used to be called albums, because they had 33 1/3 revolutions a minute.

[@RoadmanRob8]

Just visited a place were they piss in the streets and eat things out of ponds. And also run away when they finish shouting

[@Ed-rf3ye]

@@donwayne1357 brilliant

[@charlesbukowski9836]

@@donwayne1357 HAHAHAHAHA

[@blobgooll9395]

I heard that just yesterday a drunk Spanish guy stumbled a few feet north, across the border into France. France immediately surrendered to Spain.

[@ReconRecall]

I think my favorite thing about this scene is they rarely show George Washington. You forget this is a cabinet meeting and the president is there. This was meant to show his humbleness to allow his cabinet to discuss without him directing the conversation.

[@1337penguinman]

It was actually very smart of Washington. Let 2 people with radically different ideas debate them out and listen to both sides of the argument.

[@optimusprime4443]

That's what a good leader does, you don't know everything. It doesn't hurt to hear other people's idea's.

[@BalrogUdun]

Which is real Washington did not do enough to curtail Hamilton’s desire for power.

[@julianmarsh1378]

Oh, please. Washington always put out he was above politics but in reality he and Hamilton were nearly as One....he let Hamilton do the busy work that he, Washington, almost always approved of.

[@jamesbernards8409]

He was to Preside. Not to Dictate. Presidents and Dictators. Who speaks first and who speaks last?

[@jeffreyfarmer8030]

These 2 men didn't merely disagree, they greatly despised each other!

[@foolslayer9416]

Ugh, I can't imagine why...

[@phoggknight6714]

@claudia de la osa When Jefferson was sworn in as the third President in 1801, Adams didn't attend. It was the only time in history the outgoing President (if living) didn't attend his successor's inauguration, until this year. They were bitter rivals but greatly admired each other. They both died on July 4, 1826, on the nation's 50th birthday.

[@kevindavis5966]

@claudia de la osa He's referring to Jefferson and Hamilton, not Adams.

[@TexasTeaHTX]

@@phoggknight6714 Trump didn't attend Biden's inauguration, and I can assure you there was no admiration on either side.

[@sangralknight3031]

@@TexasTeaHTX To be fair... no one attended Biden's inauguration apart from a selection who were chosen by the presidential office itself. Trump wasn't invited.

[@ryandtibbetts2962]

John Adams hated being VP; he considered it an utterly useless position. Being summarily dismissed by Washington in advance of a cabinet meeting makes me understand his disposition a bit better.

[@MrAschiff]

It may or may not have happened. It's a bio pic. Adams knew he would be the next president and was.

[@scotttild]

Adams was power hungry and wanted all the power centralized just like Europe had. He wanted to be the ultimate King.

[@ryandtibbetts2962]

@@scotttild and yet, he accepted his defeat and allowed for the peaceful transfer of power... even though it was to his bitter political rival, Thomas Jefferson.

[@MrAschiff]

@@scotttild That wouldn't be consistent with his writings. Like his advocacy of a bicameral legislature, an independent judiciary system and executive all which would be a checks and balance with each other.

[@MrAschiff]

@@ryandtibbetts2962 Jefferson and Adams were close friends until Jefferson began opposing his policies. They resumed their friendship later on and wrote to each other often. They died on the same day, July 4, 1826, the fiftieth anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

[@FourEyedFrenchman]

"Our first step would be to incur a national debt..." And so it began.

[@PantsofVance]

28 trillion and counting

[@htf5555]

debt slaves by the score

[@D303pv87]

@@PantsofVance that would be an interesting call for Dave Ramsey: “Hey Dave, I’m 28 trillion in debt, how should I go about paying it off?”

[@dogguy8603]

The main reason why i believe Hamilton was the worst founding father

[@dandyrevisionist7879]

Hamilton was a real villain, no doubt.

[@danylaly3644]

It's amazing that despite how much Hamilton and Jefferson hated each other, and each other's ideas, the America we have today would't have ever came about without an amalgamation of each idea of a Republic

[@memecliparchives2254]

And that's what most fail to realize. The amalgamation yet complimentary contrast of each Founding Father's ideals (mostly with Benjamin Franklin in between them as he's fond of moderation and compromise) on liberty vs authority is what forged the United States.

[@danylaly3644]

@@memecliparchives2254 you're right! Franklin did believe in moderation and compromise. But (I'd like to believe) not without taking into account the historical context, but rather as a parliamentary strategy...

[@marletamisch6709]

it us a shame that we cannot put our differences aside for the greater good today. our fore fathers would be very disappointed

[@danylaly3644]

@@marletamisch6709, since Jefferson and Hamilton hated each other's political ideas so much, I'm guessing they wouldn't find strange the political polarization we have today...The beauty in the democratic process comes from the fact that no matter how crazy, extreme or opposite the ideas are, the best ones will always prevail, even after many generations have passed.

[@45calibermedic]

@@danylaly3644 There is no guarantee of the quality of prevailing ideas in democracy whatsoever.

[@RockSmithStudio]

Stephen Dillane does such an excellent job portraying Thomas Jefferson

[@gwenkay8218]

Stannis!!

[@MDE_never_dies]

​@@gwenkay8218Rightful King

[@luigivincenz3843]

the first time I saw Dillane on screen was on The Greatest game Ever Played and he portrayed where he played Harry vardon with the debut of Shia Labeouf. Probably one of the greatest sports movies ever made and it's a TRUE STORY of the greatest events ever played where an amateur golfer BEAT the best golfer of his time.

[@RyanBrown-hr7ct]

I agree, based on what I have read, this is exactly how I see Jeffersons personality

[@historytok1772]

Washington is just sitting there like “I just want to go home and not listen to these two.”

[@terrymeng]

tooth problem

[@mmccrownus2406]

Tough He was lazy and irresponsible He allowed Hamilton to con him

[@trevorjames9366]

washington was lazy and irresponsible?!!

[@hypnometal]

Washington really didn''t like being President. He pretty much did it out of duty and obligation, as a successor position to his role as General of the Continental Army, and because he was aware of the high regard everyone else in the new nation held him in. But by the time he left, he was like, "Okay, I've fulfilled my duty, I want to go home now."

[@robertortiz-wilson1588]

@@mmccrownus2406 congratulations on making your dimwitted comment.

[@theprofessional155]

I think Hamilton would lose his mind if he saw the debt today.

[@ThePoliticalAv]

fancy seeing you here

[@ericthedictator2151]

Damn!!! I haven't seen one of your videos in years!!!! subscribed again!!!

[@Realelduque]

Why? He would like the bigger credit.

[@maphezdlin]

Why do you think the dollar rules the world? When money has to be moved and stored for a while, it moves to the United States in which it can sit in our US Savings Bonds which have not ever defaulted going all the way back to Washington. Where would the money of the world go for storage until needed without the US Debt? The fact that most cannot see the Genius of Hamilton blows my mind. BTW Japan's debt is more than double ours and their currency is the third most traded currency in the world behind only the Euro and the Dollar.

[@ethanduncan1646]

Yeah because he would be proven right that we are the most important nation in the world and our currency is the global currency. Our spending may be irrational but we have leveraged it to be a great power.

[@BlueMagicDanceBlog]

Cabinet Battle #1.

[@abbiec1261]

Cabinet battle #0.5

[@rossmcl1776]

What a brilliant scene. So well written, and beautifully acted by all. Every little glance and gesture counts. You learn a lot about early USA political history in these 5 short minutes.

[@craigdadika8399]

It's also about the respect these two had for each other, even though they saw things extremely different politically. Our two political parties could learn a lot from these two American legends.

[@agape777]

You should watch the entire series. It’s very good.

[@RockSmithStudio]

Yep. You can understand so much about the two dominant parties during the Founding Fathers in this scene

[@jesusraya4484]

@@agape777 what is the series?

[@agape777]

@@jesusraya4484 it’s just “John Adams” on hbo or through Prime.

[@notd0ll109]

Incredible scene. The most powerful man in the country sits quietly, off screen, while two of the greatest minds in the country battle.

[@itsgodnga]

almost like thats how its supposed to work

[@bulbus7062]

I love this series. However, one thing that you kind of have to realize when watching it is that John Adams was a deeply neurotic man, constantly in a state by both wanting to be the most humble, hardworking, and unassuming man in the room, refusing all vanity and airs, while simultaneously also desiring to be praised and recognized for all of accomplishments, of which there were many. This kind of thinking he would have of course considered vanity and hated himself for it, probably pouring more of himself into his work, which would lead to more accomplishments, which would tempt him again with vanity. Basically just a vicious cycle with Adams spinning in the middle of it. I have to wonder however, since the series, and the source book, are taken primarily from his own perspective, how many of these dismissals or slights were grossly exaggerated in his head or completely unintended.

[@Cordman1221]

Ironically, I'd say it's actual a rather faithful portrayal of Adam's. You can read his letters from Calais to Ben Franklin for an insight into his mindset, where he simultaneously maintains a personal rapport with Franklin while hinting that Franklin is detaining him in France to hide his deep secrets. The truth, me thinks, is that Franklin was so enjoying himself in France he plain forgot to send the boat off at a good time, and here is Adam's, who just spent a year with Franklin, accusing probably the least duplicitous member of the Revolutionary Founders of guile and treachery. It's kind of bizarre, which is what Adam's was, a deeply neurotic and strange man. His talents were undeniable, but with genius often comes weirdness. Franklin treated his Familial relations with contempt, Jefferson kept a slave in his basement to rape, and Washington was actually not a very good general in the field(which speaks to his character, if nothing else). All the Founders were humans, but Adam's was the most human.

[@lunarialoonatic]

Considering how much backlash he faced I don’t blame him for craving validation. Especially since Washington was his hero

[@shaynebarnes175]

He had neither the masculinity of a man nor the femininity of a woman. Some dude he eventually put in prison for the alien and sedition act wrote something like that in a newspaper LOL....... He was unbearable to many( including his wife earlier on in the marriage). The slights were slights and were probably too frequent than he could remember. GREAT man nonetheless

[@drrockkso8882]

Yeah Adams was right a lot of the time but he was also kind of an asshole which often impeded his ability to negotiate compromise.

[@AnthonyJMurph]

@@drrockkso8882 Yeah. I think Adams is an interesting founding father as his personal and professional life up until he became president was generally spotless. He was mostly on the right side of history. I also think he was a good "middle ground" founding father.

[@GilbertoHernandez-xl9ig]

"opportunities for avarice and corruption would prove irresistible" i love that line

[@RyanBrown-hr7ct]

And Hamilton is attitude is, oh well

[@danielmoore411]

“Mr. President. And nothing more.” Whew... anyone else feel a chill in the room? 😕

[@Falcrist]

Adams should have replied "Yes, your excellency".

[@katieann1908]

@@Falcrist 😄

[@eq1373]

It was kind of uncalled for actually. That reprimand should have been done in private.

[@BestWayKilla]

"The greater the government's responsibility, the greater its authority." I just love the look Jefferson gives to Hamilton upon hearing this, as if to say "And you don't see *_anything_* about that which might be a problem?"

[@heraldofoblivion499]

And Hamilton was ultimately right. Without the Treasury Dept the US would have imploded by 1850

[@BestWayKilla]

@@heraldofoblivion499 And instead, it created a far too powerful, unaccountable federal government that has created exponentially more problems than it's solved (which were all started by it in the first place).

[@heraldofoblivion499]

@@BestWayKilla Unaccountable? We vote for our senators and representatives, and vote for the president. Did America become a monarchy all the sudden? And the only reason people complain about the problems the federal government has, is because nobody hears about the problems they solve. Nobody cared when they built the interstates, funded railroads, social security, built the trade routes for the entire western world and helped in the proliferation of the internet.

[@BestWayKilla]

@@heraldofoblivion499 Yes, unaccountable. Does the system ever find itself guilty when it investigates any wrongdoing or corruption from within? No. You mean when they contracted private businesses to do those things? Because that's how they were built. Federal employees didn't build them, Congressmen and Senators didn't put on hard hats and go get to work, but they sure did make a shitload of money off of a lot of those public works projects, among other things. People complain about huge corporations getting to play by different rules due to how much money they have, who do you think it is that allows them to do that? Yes, we vote. And if enough wealthy and influential people decide they'd rather it not be up to the people, they just buy the election and the fix is in (see: the elections of McKinley, JFK, and Biden).

[@lessalazar9068]

@@heraldofoblivion499 After this past election we know that's not true. Come on, boxes and boxes of ballots _only_ for Biden found later? Dead people voting? Voter fraud? No IDs needed for voting? Give me a break. It was set up. They likely rigged 2016 but didn't cheat enough, they were shocked because people actually came out and voted for Trump. It's probably why Hillary didn't have a speech prepared for her defeat.

[@colingreaves4024]

To hear Hamilton utter the phrase, "If the Union is to be preserved" when talking about the balance of power between The North and South and the eventual triumph of Central Government over Federal States is so prophetic of the actual period that truly defined America. The civil war.

[@theforcedmemefilthypapist2892]

Aye. The founders knew the business of slavery would be the flash point down the road. They believed slavery would just see itself out the door and it kinda was right up until the cotton gin is invented. The Missouri compromise made the war an inevitability

[@jackson4162]

Hamilton would have been a great president. Had he been president instead of Jefferson or Madison, there likely would have been a stronger federal government and a much stronger economy prepared for war with Britain again in 1812. Canada likely would have been annexed. He also likely would have tried to smother the slavery issue as well by going after Virginia and break the powerful state up into smaller states.

[@alexlehrersh9951]

@@jackson4162 So Hamilton would be a dictator Su Burr was a hero

[@tom_demarco]

@@alexlehrersh9951 a strong federal government is a good thing

[@JUANO510]

Facts lol also I think they were all corrupt. they all wanted bigger gov smh even the ppl they tell us didn't.

[@cybrpypr]

The series 'John Adams" is to me one of the greatest example of entertainment I have ever seen. I just covet this show.

[@bigboiganiga8356]

I watched it and I found none inconsistency of 18th century. Everything screams early American to me. Very well researched show.

[@vintagebrew1057]

Outstanding series that we enjoyed in the UK.

[@piusx8317]

​@@vintagebrew1057 Me too!

[@paulallen4086]

"hear, hear!"

[@9and7]

@@bigboiganiga8356 Not really.

[@tristanburgos1]

HBO seriously needs to consider making more shows based on history. With that right actors the content that is produced is just incredible, this being a shining example💯

[@maestroclassico5801]

Well HBO has made 2 based on the work of Pulitzer prize winner David McCollough. John Adams here and TRUMAN. Honestly his work on Theodore Roosevelt and The Wright Brothers probably deserves a nod.

[@Captain_Hapton]

"Mr. President... and nothing more." George Washington was the best we've had.

[@an-dru3732]

I agree

[@WhirlwindandHeatburst]

No Lincoln or Franklin? They did great things.

[@Praxe]

Possum Soul you know he lost every battel he tried right ?

[@tannypichardo5542]

U know he had millions of slaves right

[@WhirlwindandHeatburst]

GetHacked I was referring to FDR, if that clears things up.

[@johnroscoe2406]

"I saw a Broadway show about Hamilton that made him appear silly and vile therefore I am now an expert on Hamilton."

[@michaelbisagno932]

That would be because no one really trust Alexander Hamilton and the financial power grab he went for or the fact George Washington trusted him, somebody that's known for good choices in friends that totally would never betray him. so yeah there are real reasons to why people don't like him and Thomas Jefferson one of his suspected conspirators to his death/murder got arguably the best monument for it.

[@edwardcricchio6106]

What makes it more ironic is the very people that now love Hamilton because they think he was a hip hop character, are the very people that Hamilton had no use for.

[@TehXilee]

throw in being a hypocritical technocrat and you got yourself a whole set

[@johnroscoe2406]

@Bingus McDrangus I'd ask why but I'm sure all I'd get is heavily politicized modern day extremist rhetoric.

[@papaofthejohns5882]

@@johnroscoe2406 Wut?

[@Trinity61]

I tend to fall more on Jefferson's side, but I still respect Hamilton as a great intellectual and patriot. Think about it: the guy was the bastard son of a Scottish drunkard and a West Indies prostitute, yet he still became a Founding Father and one of the greatest thinkers of his day. Pretty cool.

[@dangelo1369]

Read his "Report on Manufacturers" and "Report on Credit". He proved to be prescient in both as we now have the Federal Reserve and have (?) a large industrial base. Jefferson envisioned an agrarian based republic.; the Confederacy during the so called "Civil War" (I prefer "Failed War of Treason and Insurrection") proved him wrong and Hamilton right.

[@Eric1-373]

@Alex M You are ridiculous Good day Sir.

[@2345678902345671]

She wasn't a prostitute. She was middle class and left her husband for another man.

[@maestroclassico5801]

Honestly though they both were.....like modern politicians....kinda hypocritical.

[@taroman7100]

I was waiting for him to break into rap about his office.

[@Psychoville93]

Shame no one talks like them anymore, it's all one liners and party obedience in modern politics.

[@Tyler-zz4kv]

7 years later this comment is more relevant than ever

[@zerokev6691]

Look more deeply into the banter at the time. It’s enough to make Donald Trump blush.

[@jaimealvarezmd7245]

No true. During Adam's campaign he was called all sorts of names and they pamphleteered and insulted each other like you wouldn't believe. Why do you think Hamilton and burr went as far as dueling each other at 10 paces.

[@zerokev6691]

Jefferson hired the journalist James Thomson Callender to write an attack on Adams which stated that he was “a hideous hermaphroditical character which has neither the force and firmness of a man, not the gentleness and sensibility of a woman.”

[@charlesferdinand422]

Nowadays it's all Demoturds complaining about nonexistent "systemic racism" and engaging in race-baiting to pander to minorities and inviting illegal immigrants to get their votes as they're willing to accept the vote of anything with a pulse (and I hear Demoturds will also accept the vote of people who don't have a pulse anynore...).

[@keilaw4423]

Stannis Baratheon was quite the dandy in his youth.

[@moistmike4150]

I once called a guy a dandy - and promptly got two teeth knocked out.

[@judefogarty8139]

Holy shit, I didn't realize he was Jefferson.

[@Tubanapoleon]

"This Republic is MINE BY RIGHT"

[@dodec8449]

@@Tubanapoleon Hamilton: "Why would you want less institutions that centralize our finances?" Jefferson: "Fewer" Hamilton: "What?"

[@muhammadhadi88]

King Stannins the Mannis !

[@2hot2handle65]

"The greater the debt, the greater the credit." If only Hamilton could see us now.

[@yvonneplant9434]

He would likely be fine with a lot of the modernity of the 21st century. Unlike today's conservatives who seem to spend a lot of time hating where they are.

[@L1berty1776]

So much debt that we went from AAA borrower to AA. The more we print the less value. Considering theres already no value as theres no actual backup to the money

[@colinmcmasters8366]

You don’t have all the facts I think our national debt is right where it needs to be. For example if I want to open a factory I’ll take out a loan and pay it back with interest and no one during that whole process will say don’t do it because I’ll start out in debt.

[@spurgear]

He was unironically correct

[@yyakaemun]

@@spurgear Could you explain it to me? i don't understand why debt is a good thing for the state

[@Nick-lz5lx]

This is perhaps the single most underrated television series ever created.

[@mr.raslyon6626]

Such EXCELLENT acting in this scene! Its a masterclass. Rufus Sewell especially. You just FEEL the disdain he had for Jefferson in this scene.

[@Falcrist]

"Sit down John. ... No, I mean in your own house."

[@matthewmiller4747]

I like when Washington speaks, everyone pays attention.

[@DynastyAr5ist]

Well of course, after all he is the president.

[@zerocool1344]

A true leader

[@foolslayer9416]

And better, everyone shuts up.

[@KikomochiMendoza]

@@DynastyAr5ist Washington: Mr. President, and nothing more.

[@Area51byDaveReale]

Just one man at that table has more brain power and integrity than our entire Congress of the past 50 yrs. I watch scenes like this and envy those times.

[@seanow8180]

No indoor plumbing mate. You wouldn’t survive a day there.

[@Area51byDaveReale]

@@seanow8180 You don't know me, ma'am

[@seanow8180]

@@Area51byDaveReale sure cupcake.

[@mechanomics2649]

lmao what a bunch of nonsense If those people were here today they'd be conducting themselves the same way current politicians do, and honestly aren't but so far off. Current politicians didn't just suddenly end up the way they are.

[@BlaneNostalgia]

oh theres brain power in the current cabinet(s), its just that they are led by something else in the decisionmaking.

[@buckeyewill2166]

Thomas Jefferson smelled the “Greed is good “sentiment that defines Wall Street.

[@blobgooll9395]

@MasteroMatter LOL, in 30 years nobody will even know Jefferson's name. It will be wiped from the history books so snowflakes don't get offended by the "patriarchy"

[@pumpkin6429]

@@blobgooll9395 I worry about revisionism, too.

[@papaofthejohns5882]

@@blobgooll9395 Damn, you must really be upset about Texas Republicans trying to remove MLK from education entirely so snowflakes don't get offended by civil rights activists.

[@thewildcardperson]

@@papaofthejohns5882 found the commie shoot on sight they don't wanna talk they want a fight give it to then

[@papaofthejohns5882]

@@thewildcardperson I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you're trying to say. The complete lack of any punctuation makes it impossible.

[@danyelpaladintheimpetuous1438]

In this parallel universe, John Smith meets Stannis Baratheon to talk about trade and economics

[@mysticdragonwolf89]

While George Washington and King John listen on

[@JohnSmith-dz2dc]

I would love the conversation

[@priyachoudhary9896]

Stannis the mannis

[@Sirxchrish]

Jefferson would mount king georges head on a SPIKE.

[@inigobantok1579]

Trade economics and the political power of North and South

[@MJSpiritual]

I was excited when this scene started. The feud of the century.

[@anoon-]

These two hated each other incredibly bad. Hamilton even complained to Washington that Jefferson kept smirking whenever Hamilton fumbled or his plans were rejected. Jefferson was convinced that Hamilton wanted to be king.

[@edp3202]

Was he wrong?

[@AYVYN]

To be fair, Hamilton would constantly troll Jefferson by speaking fondly of ancient conquerors.

[@joeruiz4010]

​@edp3202 Nope. Right on all accounts. Thomas Paine did NOT like Hamilton at all either.

[@hellaciousharry]

You can argue all you want as to who is more correct in their assumptions, but neither Hamilton or Jefferson are wrong in saying anything here. They both raise valid points.

[@austinbyrd4164]

Hamilton was a dumb@ss protectionist central banker. He led us into the depression of 1812 with an inflationary boom & bust cycle caused by artificially cheap credit monetary policies. When we abolished the central bank from 1870 to 1913, we had constant deflation, no huge busts, & the greatest period of growth in american history. Screw hamilton

[@JB-yb4wn]

@@austinbyrd4164 Well Austin, there was a war going on in 1812, not a depression. You may remember the White House being burned down in that war. The depression occurred in 1819. So maybe read more before you make an idiot of yourself? Hmm?

[@austinbyrd4164]

@J B Sorry, my bad. Mixed up the dates. Doesn't change anything I said though lol.

[@cdsilber]

@@austinbyrd4164 You weren't as off as you think. Hamilton's pursuit of creating U.S. government securities market using cheap money created by his central bank caused the Panic of 1792. When the financial sector fell into crisis he acted quickly as lender of last resort to mitigate it, but when it was over he resumed his cheap money policies which blew up into the much larger Panic of 1797. And yes, he was gone by the time of the Second Bank of the United States which directly created the even larger Panic of 1819, but the Second Bank was founded on the same principles of the first. Both were his brain child.

[@oceanberserker]

I'd say Hamilton was more in the wrong than Jefferson, but to his credit, the basic idea he had was still good.

[@dougdorney5525]

The actor who played Jefferson did a splendid job. IMHO, the best portrayal of him in film.

[@triangleman2k6]

It’s Stannis

[@BuildinWings]

@@triangleman2k6 Which is why he seems arrogant and ignorant and desperate and out of his league all at once. I'm impressed somebody played Jefferson with anything but that nonsensical reverence we normally see for Founding Fathers.

[@PattyBandAidz]

My goodness this whole series was cast PERFECTLY, brilliant adaptation

[@christopherryan697]

This is so intriguing. I can spend hours researching colonial times & still learn something new.

[@z1az285]

"...indebted to a London banker". Maybe nothing has changed after all.

[@swanurine]

If the foreign banker wants his money back, then he will do his best to keep peace between his nation and his lendee's. Thus, peace.

[@garyross4602]

Other than to replace London with Beijing!

[@kevint8266]

@@swanurine A very modern interpretation. Usually when the lendee cannot pay, his kneecaps are broken! Or invaded.

[@swanurine]

@@kevint8266 when both parties have nuclear weapons, I don't see any amount of debt being worth kneebreaking trouble

[@LordZontar]

@@kevint8266 I rather think our large arsenal of nuclear weapons and two-ocean navy obviates against that sort of danger.

[@cevisuals]

Thomas Jefferson saw through the BS and called him out without batting an eye... a total GOAT of the founding fathers of this great nation - if only we had that today!

[@aaronalvin3992]

@@jon8004 I don’t think anyone would argue Jefferson was a perfect figure. Brilliant inventor, philosopher, and visionary, but also a contradiction of himself. For example, as President he famously made the Louisiana Purchase for 13 million. The USA paid 3M in a down payment and then used a London banking agency (Francis Baring and Co.) to cover the other 10M. The purchase was also made to then Emperor Napoleon who overthrew the French Republic. That said, he’d have had to have been stark raving mad not to make that deal, but it shows he was willing to abandon his ideals in the face of reason.

[@CMacK1294]

@@aaronalvin3992 "In the face of reason" Doesn't that suggest that his ideals could adapt and refine with the addition of new information? Isn't that what you want? To learn, grow and refine your ideals to be more perfect than they were the day before? Isn't that the entire basis for reason and philosophy?

[@citizenghosttown]

@@jon8004 Yup. He understood nothing of economics and believed in a lot of utopian nonsense (to say nothing of slavery). It's why he died broke.

[@jamesboulger8705]

It is one of those funny things about establishing good credit that you must first go into debt. This was advice I was given as a young man, to open a credit card, buy a few things here or there, and pay it at the end of the month.

[@jamesboulger8705]

@@christopherhorn1161 I have always been interested to learn how banking works in Islamic countries, as I am aware of this statute regarding interest for loans in Islamic law.

[@jackson4162]

The nation was already in massive debt that was the thing. Each state had a ton of debt from the war.

[@AYVYN]

@@jackson4162 The wanted to build credit as a federal entity. The original comment did a pretty good job describing it.

[@samwelsh8241]

the amount of greatness sitting at that table.

[@Adumb_]

This series is one of my favourites and I can’t praise it enough, but even all these years later I can’t get over those damn Dutch angles! I mean it made sense during the scenes involving the revolution to convey the turbulent nature of the atmosphere at the time, but why in gods name do we need a almost 45 degree tilt during this fairly tame discussion.

[@MsPatriotfront]

Stephen Dillane steals his every scene of this miniseries, and he does so among great actors.

[@seanmoran6510]

“the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.”

[@colbystarr1744]

That’s brilliant, is it Jefferson?

[@toknnomad1424]

@@colbystarr1744 J. R. R. Tolkien

[@mechanomics2649]

I get why Tolkien would have this sentiment, but it's an awful sentiment nontheless. Complete anarchy is freedom for no one.

[@ThrillaWhale]

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary" Haha, oh Alexander. Did Jefferson at the time know who the authors of the Federalist papers were?

[@therealmcgoy4968]

Thrilla Whale the federalist papers were written anonymously and under Roman names but it’s possible Jefferson knew jay and Hamilton wrote them.

[@chrisporter4993]

@@therealmcgoy4968 He was certainly familiar enough with their writing to have a good idea.

[@CrooklynBanks]

Hamilton lied in the Federalist Papers. Everything he said wouldn't happened, happened. And he was the main cause.

[@theredscourge]

And if men are devils, we dare not have any.

[@romainlettuce118]

@@CrooklynBanks you idiot

[@danieltondorf-dick6083]

“The greater the government’s responsibility, the greater its authority.” -Alexander Hamilton Man, more ominous words have never been spoken.

[@hevnervals]

Same applies to anyone or anything with responsibility. For example parents. It's not ominous. Just a fact of life.

[@samuelswank9653]

From this we know with absolute certainty that Reichsmarschall Smith is a direct descendant of Alexander Hamilton.

[@AYVYN]

Hamilton is one of the most elegant writers I have ever read. A blend of philosophy, rationality, and poetry. You always gain something valuable after each sentence.

Clearly, Adams wanted to be in the room where it happens...

[@Falcrist]

He got that opportunity eventually... not that he was a stranger to it. *"sit down John" echos quietly in the background*

[@shane6450]

“The power of one must check and balance the other”

[@observationsfromthebunker9639]

This exchange between Hamilton and Jefferson casts the course of American politics to the Civil War in one scene of seamless exchange. This is an excellent show! Adams tries to stop the debate, while Washington listens and mentally takes notes. Note that neither Hamilton or Jefferson are incorrect in their positions, but Hamilton presumes that the men in power will always have the best interests of the Federal economy in mind, while Jefferson is inherently suspicious of the money men and their smooth talk of planned economy, which has a way of developing in unplanned ways.

[@JGalt-em4xu]

IMO a rather charitable interpretation of Hamilton; Hamilton's career more closely resembles the avaricious opportunist Jefferson warned about.

[@edp3202]

​@valer119👍

[@robvegart]

Now this is exactly what i am talking about!!! THANK YOU!!! People think I hate capitalism, when that is nothing of the sort. I hate controlled capitalism which lends itself to thieves that are separated from perfection. While those whom praise it seek Kumbaya with a lost world.

[@Seven_Leaf]

@@robvegart I hate capitalism because it's allowing everyone to be equally greedy, which is the best system we currently have since most humans are incredibly greedy. Says a lot about our species. I guess it would be better said, that I hate human nature.

[@STRZB001]

Thank you for the informative description to this video. This looks like a very good show! I’m going to have to check it out.

[@crb4059]

This series was based on David McCullough's "John Adams" book, an excellent read.

[@jcm9356]

It certainly was an excellent audiobook. Also very good were: Hamilton by Ron Chernow; Ben Franklin by Walter Isaac; American Ulysses by Ronald White; Truman, also by David McCullough (long) and the best in my opinion Lyndon B Johnson series by Robert Caro (5 books, all long but all great).

[@tomservo5347]

Jefferson totally called out what sadly did happen.

[@timothygibney159]

So did Hamilton. The thing is Hamilton saw the upcoming industrial revolution. Jefferson as an elderly old man was appalled referring to workers as slaves to factory owners. Jefferson envisioned wild free land out west all being given away to all men for farming. Nothing else. So why have banks and government? Hamilton realized commerce, products, trade, companies, and credit to fund it where required. We could not be prosperous without it in the 21st century. Hamilton was way ahead of his time

[@johan8969]

@@timothygibney159 They did not need an industrial revolution since it was already reality, which Jefferson explains. The north even back then was based on manufacturing goods while the south was agrarian and any move to a central government based in the north would be at the expense of the agrarian south in terms of influence since the north had all the money. We must remember that Hamilton spoke for his constituents in New York while Jefferson spoke for his constituents in Virginia and as Jefferson asks, why would a Virginian farmer fight off the British just to be under the yoke of a New York banker? In an odd twist, Shays Rebellion happended in a northern state, but down the line, the argument these two gentlemen have shows the schism and how the seeds for the civil war was planted before the union even got off the ground.

[@Trinity61]

We're still having the same debate today. What a great movie.

[@abehambino]

“ the greater the government’s responsibility the greater it’s authority “ That’s exactly right! Government exists on powers derived from the people. The more you ask it to do the more power they have, and in turn the less you have.

[@brandonk8948]

Honestly, property wise, I understand how the South during the Civil War saw the Federal government was over reaching its authority for taking their slaves. They wanted more state rights and individual rights, similar to a libertarian ideal. Not condoning slavery, but folks sugar quote the foundation of this ideology stemmed from conversations like this one

[@rpraetor]

Yeah, let's just hand it to unregulated corporations instead. Instead of voting, you can just be coerced into buying from monopolies without recourse.

[@abehambino]

@@rpraetor how laughable. The monopolies you fear have only ever existed because they use the government for their own means. They would never actually survive like that without competition in a true laisez Faire system. Not that such a system would be free from problems, but I find it hilarious that you think our modern system has somehow eliminated monopolies.

[@nerofl89]

@@rpraetor Wow what a circular argument. First you go from unregulated corporation to monopoly. Monopolies are entirely due to state intervention the polar opposite of a free business.

[@GreatBigRanz]

@@nerofl89 yeah, no. It's the exact opposite. Monopolies are created by themselves in an unregulated market then buy the power of the state to keep their dominion.

[@dk5388]

I am reading the biography of Hamilton. I first read about this in the Adams biography and watched this but never understood what was the problem. Reading the Hamilton biography makes this scene SOOOOO much sense!! Lol

[@DylanRoth1860]

+JacksMagicBean You're right...he was more. Even the quite authoritarian Adams questioned his sanity.

[@DavidJGillCA]

+JacksMagicBean Well what Hamilton says in this clip is very well stated and it is the plan that the nation adopted, though some by virtue of their present day biases will find it to be a dark vision. It's Jefferson who comes off badly (but historically accurately) to me as being ignorant and governed by irrational suspicions. I don't think Hamilton was power hungry but he did have a hard-on for the military and aspired to the rank of general (nominally achieved.)

[@DylanRoth1860]

David J Gill Yep, and our country's run by China and millionaire globalists. Trade, national debts and one indivisible nation? I think the Democratic Republicans had more wisdom. The federalists' irrational fear of anarchy blinded them to the shortcomings in their own political philosophy.

[@jacobsabin2039]

well keep in mind, the show does not maybe paint Hamilton in the best picture because the show, in the overall scheme of things, is about John Adams, who, like Jefferson, did not always have a very respectable picture of Hamilton. I am not saying it in a positive or negative way, it is just what it is.

[@DylanRoth1860]

Jacob Sabin Adams himself was vehemently opposed to virtually every tenant of democratic republican thought and all of their proposals, so again if he thought Hamilton went too far, that really says something. Jefferson and Adams wouldn't even talk to each other for ages. Both of these things are depicted in the film, so I don't really think it's a case of the film being biased because Adams was not well disposed to Hamilton. Hamilton was extremely ambitious and desperate to prove himself on account of his humble background. One of the ironies about Hamilton and Jefferson (pointed out by noted historian Clay Jenkinson) is that each in many ways betrayed the class of their birth. Hamilton was very well disposed to the rich and well born, particularly if the source of their wealth was urban and financial rather than agricultural, and Jefferson, despite being of the planter class, supported the states rights populism of people in the southern and frontier states, who were the parents and grandparents of the jacksonians. Many who lived in such states did not see much in the federalist papers which corresponded to what they knew in their lives and how their communities were organized and governed. I don't think Hamilton was some fascist or something. I think he basically wanted a hobbsian constitutional monarchy with a fairly powerful leviathan. He didn't really want a break from the British government. He just want foreigners (although he was from jamaica) interfering with America's British government! I think Hamilton would've been a lot happier if he had lived in the later whig/republican era that thrived 3/4 of a century after the founding.

[@aorusaki]

I've watched this video like 10 times over and over. i love it so much

[@Kalenz1234]

The streets of revolutionary France were first and foremost filled with heads. And he wanted to see that in his home?

[@POCKET-SAND]

I think that phase of the Revolution didn't happen yet while Jefferson was visiting, but I could be wrong. A lot of Democratic-Republicans did pull support of France when the Reign of Terror began.

[@smnoy23]

I love how Adams keeps trying to interject during Jefferson's initial bit about the southern states being in thrall to the north

[@BirdieSenpai]

I agree with Jefferson on the limited role of the federal government, with Hamilton on the disaster of the French Revolution, with Adams that the government should not favor the North over the South, and with Washington that both Jefferson and Hamilton should stfu and eat.

[@chrishisel8815]

Both men made valid points. Moderation of both philosophies are needed to run a successful country.

[@citizenghosttown]

Yes. That's what makes this a great scene. The guy with the best understanding of that point (Adams) was asked to leave the room.

[@chrishisel8815]

@@citizenghosttown because he got a bit carried away with grandiose titles haha

[@republicempire446]

Both sides have a good points which that’s why checks and balances are highly necessary between the relationship on Federal and State governments

[@republicempire446]

@MasteroMatter you do have a good valid point

[@snakething87]

“Our first step is to incur a national debt.” God Bless America 🇺🇸

[@abdul-hadidadkhah1459]

God bless being a debt slave?

[@Alexwhatisit]

Hamilton was right in the short term, Jefferson in the long term.

[@Falcrist]

They were both right in both cases. - A strong central government was needed then and is still needed now. - A central government, despite being necessary to the stability of the republic nevertheless invites corruption. Hamilton's writings are legendary, and history has proven him right. Jefferson famously wrote that "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Now obviously actual political violence should be avoided unless you want to go the way of the Roman republic... but purging the government of bad actors (as in removing them from office. not murdering them) should probably happen periodically. It's just difficult to ensure that the people who take over after the purge will operate in good faith. Maybe all politicians should be replaced at once every generation or so. Like a sort of political jubilee. Every single member of congress along with the president and others... simultaneously dismissed and barred from taking a federal office ever again. He also wrote: "let us provide in our constitution for its revision at stated periods." "Stated periods" were to be determined, but he suggested a rewrite every generation (20 years). Again, that idea tends to resonate with people, but the same problem is there. How do you avoid corruption from infecting the new constitution? Hamilton did amazing work while he was politically active, but thank goodness he never became president. Jefferson WAS president, but some of his actions ultimately ensured a civil war would eventually come. He had extremely good ideas ideas, but often he just... didn't apply them. Not the best president IMO. I wish Thomas Paine could have gotten through to him. Washington was the right man to lead the nation at that time *_precisely because_* he understood that Hamilton was right, but also understood the dangers Jefferson was propounding. Washington tried to take the best ideas from the federalists and anti-federalists (Democratic-Republicans). I like to think he mostly succeeded. I wish we had more presidents like that today... assembling a cabinet out of members of both factions and trying to find the best ideas from both sides. Our politics would be MUCH more productive if that happened.

[@puncherdavis9727]

@@Falcrist preferred John Adams over Jefferson as president

[@peach-panther]

@@puncherdavis9727 John Adam’s was an amazing founding father, but terrible president. He didn’t allow free press with the alien and sedition acts which expired after his term… Until FDR brought it back.

[@MollymaukT]

@@Falcrist the beginning of the clip already shows why Jefferson would be a pretty lousy president (except for the Louisiana purchase). Him talking about France and the “cries of liberty” and shit is all very nice but you need action to get a government rolling afterwards, something Hamilton was miles ahead

[@johnroscoe2406]

Other way around

[@dylankornberg4892]

And here folks, we see one of the rarest sights in history: John Adams agreeing with something Alexander Hamilton said.

[@jeffburnham6611]

Adams just seemed so out of it during this scene. Loved the part where Washington put him in his place with the line, "Mr President, nothing more".

[@lancevance5907]

3:11 The way Jefferson quickly looks at Hamilton is just full of smugness.

[@silentvoiceinthedark5665]

Tears in my eyes as the words of Mr Jefferson fall upon my ears

[@gamecokben]

Which words in particular? The ones speaking about freedom while he made his riches from owning humans?

[@silentvoiceinthedark5665]

@@gamecokben when in the course of human events

[@silentvoiceinthedark5665]

If you had 2 brain cells to rub together you would be able to put things in perspective. Slavery was and remains till today and is the most evil thing ever. May I ask what you are doing to end present day slavery? Do you own anything made in a slave factory in China? Have you ever bothered to go to the Saudi embassy in Washington DC to oppose their form of slavery? Oh how about just writing a letter to your state representative asking for the abolition of alimony payments in a divorce? Whats that you say crickets ? you disagree? Jefferson was opposed to slavery, he tried to put it in the constitution several times, he tried to abolish it in Virginia at the state level. He tried to abolish it in the new territories. I would be more than happy to debate with you. Slavery and indentured servitude is EVIL in all its forms and you are either 100% against it or you are for it. Without Jefferson we would not have had a chance to be against it.

[@silentvoiceinthedark5665]

@Takoyuki Anyone that is willing to tolerate slavery today and even support it economically and fails to recognize the limitations of those opposed to slavery in the past is a moron. America lost 2.5 % of its population in the civil war on both sides of the war. To put that into perspective that would be 8.25 million people today Even if only half of those that died fought to free the slaves in the civil war it would still give us over 4 million people in today's perspective. Jefferson knew that there would be a nasty civil war and those opposed to slavery launched the civil war only when they could be certain of a positive outcome. Also freed slaves had no where to go in 1776 and many were kidnapped from the north, even those that were born free. Jefferson was not a rich man.

[@drrockkso8882]

Jefferson sits in a Philadelphia office talking about "cries of liberty" while hundreds of slaves are doing all of his work for him back in Virginia. The guy was kinda full of shit.

[@duchungtran9914]

Hamilton is right. Jefferson used the international credit that Hamilton set up to fund the "Lousiana Purchase"

[@nerofl89]

No Hamilton wasn't right. The country had long incurred debt before Hamilton's ideas were implemented. His centralizing of authority is dictatorial and ripe for corruption, and we are seeing the very fears of Jefferson manifesting in excess proportions today.

[@captainyossarian388]

For that one thing. And was it really necessary? Buying land when you are already trying to develop your nation's existing territory?

[@VolvosandHondas]

Eh, i hear this a lot. The treasury was already there, the government had already taken on too much power for Jefferson to adhere to his ideology 100% or even 50%. He did what the American people wanted with the Louisiana purchase, not what he wanted. Something that cant be said of Hamilton.

[@AnthonyJMurph]

@@captainyossarian388 well at least it was official at that point.

[@amitkenan3878]

@@captainyossarian388 More land means more resources for your nation

[@pdmexpress05]

Jefferson is the Lord of Light's chosen

[@CLASSICALFAN100]

I disagree (and so did Gore Vidal, and many others)...

[@chadwickst.clair-smythe4217]

@@CLASSICALFAN100 Its a reference.

[@Valkaneer]

How amazing this conversation lays out the reason for the Civil War nearly 85 years before it happened. Jefferson saw exactly how this entire thing would unfold decades before it happened.

[@kennethduckworth7111]

The reason for the civil war was slavery

[@charleswest6372]

Great series. Watch it several times. Should be required viewing by all humanity.

[@WildRiverTom1]

Say, this looks like a good series. I may have to watch this.

[@antonio7815]

It’s a must. My wife and I watched the episodes back to back. It’s very inspiring and patriotic.

[@AdamBechtol]

It was quite good :)

[@taroman7100]

You havent seen it? You should own it. It won many Emmy's. The best HBO produced in some time.

[@KikomochiMendoza]

@@taroman7100 i even got the book that tied in with the series also called John Adams. It even used the actors face.

[@spuwho]

Each of the founding fathers had strong feelings about how one should "preserve the union". Unfortunately, the term became a political weapon of choice instead of an actual goal. That political weapon stayed in force right up and into the civil war. Only Polk deferred the inevitable with the war with Mexico. After the civil war was over, no one talked about preserving the union as a political tool anymore. For those looking at US history, that took almost a 100 years to resolve.

[@24Fanboy]

I like how many of them have almost half-British accents, probably more accurate to the time than many other works set in this time.

[@aorusaki]

Yeah America was still a nation of English immigrants (mostly) so even the Americans that lived there for a while would only have started to develop their own accents and dialect.

[@jameskoziol5405]

Tbf these were what English accent sounded at the time , before the modern english accent arose (large parts of England get through a sound change) but you can still here this older accent in rural area like Somerset and Norfolk. It just really good historical accuracy

[@eq1373]

@@aorusaki slightly incorrect. America was a nation of English colonists that had been native to it for up to 200 years at that time. No one immigrated from another country except Hamilton.

[@coolins335]

Jefferson predicted the civil war.

[@johnroscoe2406]

No he didn't. The South didn't start that war over economic concerns of the North having too much influence; they were pissed off the government was backing off from admitting more slave states. It was absolutely about slavery and to pretend it was anything more is just more garbage Lost Cause mythology.

[@mikeg2491]

@@johnroscoe2406 the South seceded over the slavery issue, but the actual war was fought to force them back into the union, Lincoln had no interest in freeing the slaves until it become tactically useful.

[@johnroscoe2406]

@@mikeg2491 That was not in dispute at all. Completely irrelevant as a response to my comment. No one here, including me, said otherwise.

[@rainstreet78]

I always wondered if Jefferson saw violence in the country's future and maybe he was fine with that? This is because of his statements about the tree of liberty and all that.

[@johnroscoe2406]

@@rainstreet78 1. That's a not-too-clever way of trying to justify traitors (the CSA were traitors) and 2. I think Jefferson had a better understanding of metaphor than you do.

[@mattpagel2328]

If anyone has been through an IRS audit, Jefferson is comforting.

[@JXY2019]

America would not have been what it became without both Hamilton and Jefferson. Despite their antogonism their ideas were both fundamental

[@Falcrist]

And without Washington to mediate and select the best from both of them.

[@EmptyMan000]

It took all kinds to make America, acknowledging that doesn't justify individual actions though

[@alexanderhamilton6249]

Why do I look like that??

[@evanlanger4808]

I don't know

[@evanlanger4808]

Mabye Jefferson did it

[@jtstacey83]

this is what a moderate achieve looking at both sides and taking the best ideas of both and meeting in the middle.

[@oraclewjr1]

Jefferson and Adams agreed on one thing: they both came to despise Hamilton. Jefferson for ideological reasons and Adams for personal reasons. Hamilton, an admitted adulterer, even managed to incur the wrath of the mild mannered future president, James Monroe, when he falsely accused him of a lack of integrity. Monroe challenged Hamilton to a duel and told Hamilton to his face "Sir, you are a scoundrel". Friends interceded and the duel was called off. Such was unfortunately not the case in 1804 when his fatal duel with Burr proceeded. It is obvious that at this point Hamilton's vision for America prevails, but with $30 trillion in debt, the government's money controlled by a Federal Reserve that is privately owned, and for the past 50 years the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, one might question both the morality of the way the system is employed and just how much longer it will last. It was rescued last time by FDR. So, maybe ultimately, a version of Jefferson's vision will prevail in the end.

[@ShankarSivarajan]

Unfortunate? It would only have been that if Hamilton had won.

[@christopherstewart6468]

Very, very well put my friend. Thank you.

[@skidivr]

The idea that the poor get poorer while the rich get richer is a lie. The flood of money in the US has raised all boats. There is less poverty and hunger by any measure. The rich are richer and the poor are richer. You may point to isolated cases of some citizens that are worse off, as you could with isolated cases of rich being worse off. On the whole, Americans are far better off today than at any time in our history. And this is spite of corrupt and stupid politicians and their mouth pieces in the media, scaring the country into shutting down for their own political gain. One of Trump's greatest failures was not preventing this calamity.

[@Richard0292]

USD supply increased 30% in the last year. If you did not get 30% richer in the last year you've gotten poorer. Money printing means that only those already owning or living off of assets keep up. Those on wages shall not as wages never keep up with inflation.

[@freelookmode9837]

@@skidivr how do you know this?

[@finleyfendt3750]

Great series, worth watching. JOHN ADAMS. 👍👍👍

[@aorusaki]

This might have no music and no action but its such a deep and tense conversation.

[@idicula1979]

Washington was pretty much a make no waves kind of personality. It was the company he kept that became his legacy.

[@brt1strrbb110]

Except for his was famous for his dignity and angry nature, when it came out. Also for being one of a solider, not a brilliant tactician but a great solider and leader regardless. Also famous for his physical prowess and being built like a brick shithouse. The only person near his height was Jefferson, but he didn't nearly have the physical presence Washington did. Unless you mean that he was famous by those around him because he chose them and I misunderstood, which I'd freely admit to if that's the case

[@DTOStudios]

@@brt1strrbb110 I think he more meant the nation was not really shaped by Washington, rather those of the first cabinet. Jefferson had his vision early. A mostly decentralized agrarian country. Then, especially after the Civil War, Hamilton's vision. A large centralized nation that would be a world leader, using industry and trade to make the nation prosperous. Washington left a legacy, but the nation was really shaped by his advisors rather than the man himself

[@kenle2]

@@DTOStudios Others have made that point, but I think it downplays what Washington accomplished. He put the brilliant minds together and quietly let his personal authority which came directly from the genuine love of most of his countrymen provide the regulating force within the government. He set the precedents that gave the Presidency both its authority and its limitations outside the written strictures of the Constitution. He knew that sometimes trying to force a decision was worse that uncertainty and that stability in peacetime counted for much in successful government.

[@redmustangredmustang]

@@brt1strrbb110 Washington kept the whole nation together from the war and his two presidencies until he died. Example after example even when the soldiers wanted to rebel for not getting paid after a while, Washington came in and quelled it down. He knew what to say, but also wasn't going to f around when there was any mutiny. He put those people to death. Even when there was a riot after a new whiskey tax, and Washington sent in troops to quell it down. He chose negotiation rather than using force. Everyone looked up to Washington when he spoke because when he got angry, you better hope it's not directed at you.

[@inigobantok1579]

His formation of a "cabinet" for the new presidency ensured that the nation will survive because it brought the brightest and most astitute minds of the 13 states to his wing to discuss and departmentalized certain problems and issues in the appropriate governance of the nation

[@20somthingdrifter11]

No one was saying the guy was perfect, yes he owned Hundreds of slaves, inherited from his father in law, it troubled him so much that his original draft of the Declaration of Independence included grievances against the crown for force the evils of slavery on the colonies, that provision was rejected by the congress.

[@sirmount2636]

Everyone owned slaves back then

[@drunkenvos8852]

@@sirmount2636 Yes true but Jefferson was one of a select few who despised slavery and what it meant. A quote from Hamilton referring to slavery: Hideous Blot and a moral depravity. yes i know they are not the same quote and there is more substance to them but the essence of the quotes is the samen.

[@mechanomics2649]

@@sirmount2636 What does that have to do with anything?

[@mechanomics2649]

Yes I'm sure it gave his slaves great comfort to know that he felt so badly about it and that they were inherited from his father in law. How does anyone buy into these excuss?

[@20somthingdrifter11]

@@mechanomics2649 yes I'm sure it's an excuse to one so sanctimoniously perfect as yourself, I'm sure given that in those days if you couldn't pay your debts you were thrown in prison to break rocks until somehow your debts were magically paid but you would have gladly giving up any hope of freedom to spend your life breaking rocks in order that people you were taught or property could be free, if that was even possible, I'm not exactly sure what the laws of surrounding manumission were at the time.

[@kingdingaling6516]

*John Adams leaves* Starts singing his own version of The Room Where It Happens.

[@forwardthinkingtv4993]

Hamilton wanted America to compete on the world stage. He understood you need a strong government to accomplish this goal. He was truly ahead of his time. His letters of conjecture should have been adopted with the Declaration of Independence. Our money wouldn’t be in such a bad situation.

[@joelswilley7533]

Adam's sitting their like a kid at the grown ups table. Then Washington kicks him out, because it's bought to get real and that was just the warm up.

[@jbo4547]

Thats not how it was at all... but suree.

[@B.T.R.-sj4if]

PG is brilliant as Adam's. His speech "facts are stubborn things" defending British soldiers still is taught in even Australian LLB universities. What a lot of people, American or not might not realise is these men and the others who acted to break away were very young men. VERY young men. This by far for me as a dual US Australian citizen born in Australia is by far 'the' best depiction of events in general, and Adams in particular ever put to screen. The actors cast are simply brilliant. I love how General Washington sits here almost detached., sort of half in, half out. He never 'did' the argy bargy of politics. Hamilton also was a brilliant man, foreseeing the future of the Fed and the critical role it'd play globally.

[@Cyberdemon-9001]

What's wild is how right Jefferson was

[@NuCrowe]

Washington was like , " don't add to my headache Adams..."

[@juanolivares1300]

Unfortunately, you do not see this kind of political etiquette anymore among our 21st century politicians.

[@travishylton6976]

yes our politicians are no longer slave owners

[@jimmyfaherty8588]

what a great series.

[@chadwickst.clair-smythe4217]

"Hamilton will bend the knee or I will destroy him." -Stannis Jefferson.

[@amitkenan3878]

John Adams: "You have become the very thing you swore to destroy"

[@cryptohunt2552]

Interesting how they had a British twang to their accents back then.

[@sirmount2636]

They all sound Irish

[@DenianWriter]

@NIETZSCHEAN54 I think its because as Americans we generally hear mild Irish accents as slightly different American accents. I can hear some midland accents in there too.

[@Guzunderstrop]

@@DenianWriter In this series Jefferson and Franklin seem to have soft west country accents; not quite country bumpkin, but not far off.