How Much Muscle Can You Build With & Without Steroids?

[@JeffNippard]

I wanted to quickly respond to a few questions and critiques I've seen on this video. I posted this on my youtube community tab but figured I'd comment it here as well. Let’s start with the natural stuff. 1: “Not all natural growth curves look like they do in the video.” (see 1:00) True. The growth curves I showed in the video would only apply to lifters who have been training quite effectively from the jump. If you’ve been training with either poor effort or poor methods, you may very well gain a small amount of muscle initially and then see your muscle gain shoot up later in your lifting career. I added the red line to Image 1 to show what muscle growth might look like for someone who discovers effective training methods later in their journey. To be fair, in the video I do say that “natural lifters **doing most things right** will experience a similar growth curve” but in the real world, a lot of people don’t “do most things right” from the beginning. So this is totally a fair thing to point out. 2: “I don’t think a natural ceiling actually exists for muscle gain.” I respectfully disagree on this one. If there was no such thing as a natural ceiling then people would just continue growing into their 40s, 50s and 60s. But they rarely, if ever, do unless their training was highly suboptimal beforehand. Even gaining 1 lb of muscle per year would result in 30 lbs of muscle gain after going from 30 to 60 years old. That would be a HUGE visual difference. But I’ve never heard of an experienced natural lifter making a transformation like that after lifting effectively for a decade or more. With that said, I still think 99+% of people aren’t actually AT their natural muscular ceiling. Very few people actually optimize all the training and nutrition variables and most people will still be able to make marginal gains deep into their natural lifting careers. But even for the small portion of people who are more or less natty-maxxed, there is no shame in maintaining a physique you’ve taken years of hard work to build. I think that the fitness community would benefit from being less uber-focused on GAINS GAINS GAINS all the time and more focused on the process of lifting, especially in the later training stages. Ok on to the steroids stuff: 3: “I think you’re overstating how much muscle steroids actually build.” For some people this video overstates how much muscle steroids can add. For others, it understates how much muscle steroids can add. There is an enormous range in genetic response to anabolics, just like there is an enormous range in genetic response to natural training. Throughout the video I did my best to emphasize that some will gain more, some will gain less, but these are the best average ranges I could come up with based on real world examples and scientific data. Overall, I wouldn’t agree with this critique. 4: “Those steroid studies actually measure fat free mass, not muscle mass.” True. If you look at the Y-axis at 5:14 it says Fat Free Mass, not muscle mass. Fat free mass includes muscle mass but also includes water, organs, bones, (everything except fat). The reason I said “muscle” in the video instead of “fat free mass” is honestly because I found in previous videos that the term “fat free mass” confuses people. It isn’t a term a lot of people are familiar with. For example, I used fat free mass to determine protein intake in some earlier videos and it caused a lot of issues. Many people struggled understanding that you determine fat free mass by subtracting your body fat mass from your total body mass and I found this extra step frustrating as a coach/communicator. This previous experience made me averse to using the term in videos and I try to avoid it if I can. Because of this, in this video, I approximated fat free mass as muscle mass. In retrospect, I probably should have just said “fat free mass” but here’s why I thought it was a fine enough approximation: Look at the fat free mass (FFM) gained by the 4 groups in the 1996 Bhasin study at 5:14. Was that mostly just water weight and not actually muscle? Or maybe it was organ weight and not actually muscle? Or could it have been bone weight and not actually muscle? I don’t think so. I think it was, in fact, mostly muscle. Here’s why. The Bhasin study used both DEXA scans to assess FFM *and* MRI scans to measure muscle volume. And when you look at the data, the MRI numbers line up perfectly with the FFM numbers. For example, according to the MRI findings, the training + no steroids group saw a ~5% increase in quad volume, while the steroids + no training group saw a ~7% increase in quad volume and the steroids + training group saw a ~14% increase in quad volume. These numbers scale damn near perfectly with the FFM findings. To me, this indicates that the fat free mass gained was mostly muscle. Despite this, I probably should have been more precise and said fat free mass instead of "muscle” in the video, or at the very least I should have added a footnote on the screen with a more thorough explanation of the terms in the description box. Hopefully this post will suffice for now and I’ll try to be less loose with this term moving forward. I’m going to figure out a way to get potentially confusing terms like this technically correct without losing the audience. I’m sure it’s doable. Since we’re on the topic of the Bhasin study, there’s another caveat that I’d like to mention. Why did the steroids group gain so much mass without even training? That seems a bit odd. I suspect at least part of the reason is because the subjects in this study were detrained lifters and not new lifters. Therefore, some of the mass they gained was no doubt a result of regaining lost muscle as opposed to gaining new muscle from scratch. This likely explains why there were higher overall rates of muscle gain than usual in this study. However, this would apply to BOTH the natty and enhanced groups. The natty training group would have leveraged muscle memory too, so this doesn’t really explain the *difference* between the natty vs enhanced groups - at least not fully. Because of this, I didn’t think it was a detail worth including in the final version of the video. There is always an editorial challenge when making these videos in deciding how deep to go on study details without losing the audience. In the future, I’ll try my best to leave less on the cutting room floor, maybe by including more footnotes in the description box, especially if there is a detail that I don’t think people need to know to get the practical takeaway, but would still add some valuable context to the findings. I think I can make that work moving forward. 🤝 Lastly, I want to say that I definitely think the takeaway figures given in the video are accurate ranges. Adding 20-40 lbs of muscle (pure muscle, not total weight) is a realistic average range for most natties (some will gain more, some will gain less). And doubling those gains is pretty standard for people who enhance with moderate bodybuilding dosages over a decent timescale given a more or less average genetic response. And I definitely believe that steroids have the potential to make an enormous impact on your gains, within the range of the figures shown in the studies that I covered. And of course, the downsides of steroids mentioned in the video should make us question whether or not those gains are worth it. Anyway, I hope this clarifies the video further and as always I appreciate the feedback. Peace!

[@wesj1064]

Addressed every "counterpoint" or criticism very well Jeff. This is probably my fave video of yours. Thanks for this one.

[@knightcommamder]

Jeff, lying is a sin. You are not natural, you either took stuff in the past or lying about not taking it now as well. Spiritual laws work better than physical they definitely hit harder so I'd come clean if I were you.

[@kinginthenorth1437]

​@@knightcommamderIf you're going to criticize lying bringing up spiritual bs is about the most hypocritical threat you coukd make against it.

[@knightcommamder]

@@kinginthenorth1437 yeah yeah keep telling yourself that bro Maybe that why your life sucks, you're angry, lonely and miserable. Think about it, pal

[@wardidly3098]

Avoiding the elephant in the room is the question about your past gear use.

[@georgespyropoulos7708]

Bringing in Derek as the «anonymous anabolic expert” got me good😂

[@jordanleonard6540]

That was hilarious.

[@ChoddedNloaded]

No it’s “Eric more weight more hate”

[@nicholaspetrelis9570]

Facts. I’m dead 💀

[@PlayshotKalo]

💀

[@ugprashanth]

Hahahaha😂

[@GVS]

Appreciate the highlight! I've noticed a worrying trend of content creators downplaying what is possible naturally, glorifying anabolic usage and even shaming people for staying natural. However, for most people, given the very significant drawbacks of anabolic steroids, staying natural makes the most sense by far!

[@cybervoid8442]

Also puts an end to the "it's not just steroids bro, it's mostly hard work" argument to rest since it most certainly is significantly due to steroids

[@Andrew-qc8jh]

steroids don't look that aesthetic a lot of times. In real life if you saw some of these body builders they would look like freaks of nature because they are

[@PaulFilmer]

Given the side effects, if you aren't competing I would think the money spent on steroids would be far better spent on therapy to understand why this is even on your mind.

[@warrenchan5613]

You're the peak example of natty goals, even moreso than Jeff.

[@strongwiseandfree]

There's definitely SOOO much room to grow naturally. I'm in my 40s and seeing legitimate physique gains on a regular basis. Granted, my joints aren't so happy about 1rms these days, but I could probably hit some if I ever peaked for it.

[@Kalebsweeten]

Steroid user here. Stay natural guys. The amount of damage this does to your body long term is astronomically higher than what most people realize. It’s expensive, it’s risky, and unless you’re competing, it’s absolutely NOT worth it. Even as a competitor there are times I regret it.

[@mg-rp2qc]

I appreciate your honesty but I genuinely wonder: Why not quit? Are you making a living with this? Are you addicted? Anyway, good luck in your competitions!

[@Excal123]

where can i buy them

[@Rostam.]

*Not* worth it you mean I assume? Lol

[@aldomaresca9994]

what about low dosage? is there an ammount you can use and avoid trouble? can you use to gain some muscle mass and workout to your desired size and then just quit roids and workout for just maintenance?

[@Kalebsweeten]

@@mg-rp2qc I’ve built my entire career on competing/coaching. There are pros and cons there. Thank you for your wishes. 🙏

[@T4eF1rs7]

This is such an informative video. The last 10 Years I consumed a crazy amount of content regarding sports and training. Having seen nearly all of your videos this is actually the only channel the internet needs to get in the best shape of your life, have a clear understanding of nutrition and science based training advise and so on. All the best from Germany and Thanks

[@hanfiball4136]

well the take away is you dont need anyithing but steroids

[@Yuurrr04]

@@hanfiball4136which is correct if you dont care about nothing but muscles

[@NationKiwi]

Derek as the anonymous source lmaoo

[@NAVEENCHAURASIYAA]

The turk seller (no turk inside da pill)

[@jeffmcmahon6363]

Anonymously coming to you from the Spa!

[@miguelharo209]

Shit had me dying 😂😂

[@rivahkillah]

Shhhh!

[@mlajdksbfksmdnx5165]

Bro it was a joke

[@JeffNippard]

Are you guys surprised by how much of a difference steroids make?

[@RadianceCOD]

Ofcourse, it makes a lot of difference in heart's muscle too😂😂😂

[@xcaliber998]

Jeff you claim you’re natty?

[@Tsteezzz]

Not rlly

[@FutureProductionz239]

No natty has 3d delts like yours. Just anther fake natty

[@bigc181]

​@somebodysomebody8286 muscle adapt to new stimulus.

[@adderlyco2025]

This was very well made. Thanks. Now I can share it with my friends without parroting myself every time. The naysayers and doubters are probably taking steroids. I've gone everywhere, depending on how much I train. From lean to bulky to ripped, I have only averaged about 20 pounds of muscle, and I can't ever get past it naturally unless I start taking a bunch of supplements. Even then, it's negligible. Eventually, I just gave up and stopped doing intense training. I realized I wouldn't get any more muscular, as I had already peaked my biceps, triceps, abs, and back for my weight. The best I could do is make it look bulkier if I eat more or just keep training for strength gains, but even with strength gains, my peaked biceps and triceps remain about the same aesthetically. They get sturdier/harder. So, based on the revelations, I decided to stick with lean and ripped instead of intense training for a big and muscular aesthetic because either way, big or lean, I still average about 3 sets of 12 reps on a Seated single Dumbbell Skull Crush at 100 pounds. Max rep of 1 and one set is usually 120. That was during my peak. I stopped now I can only do about 100 for my max rep and 80-95 for my 3 sets. Always averaged around 132-160 pounds throughout the 12+ years, depending on whether I wanted to be bulked or lean. 5 foot 9. In my experience, I always doubt newbies who suddenly got all swoll or big or can suddenly outlift me within one year. I rarely use protein or supplements. I just eat, work out, and use spirulina and a nutrition liquid for extra nutrition when my foods don't meet the requirements. (pounds and feet)

[@atharva-naik]

Not mocking you but 160 lbs bulked is awfully light for 5'9". I probably have a bunch more fat than you and am much weaker but I'm 170 lbs at like 20% bf (maybe a little bit more). I'm just an inch taller at 5'10". I think you might have a smaller frame or might be shorter than you think. I have a small frame and wrist size for my height of 5'10"

[@issammelzi728]

Jeff really blurred out derek's face and left the sauna behind him as if we wouldn't know 😂 Edit : yes i know it's a joke

[@Zfusion911]

Bro I frickin died laughing hahaha

[@TheOxIshere]

​@@Zfusion911 I think it was a tongue and cheek type of thing. We all know More Plates more Dates. 🙂

[@abdulazizbadi2782]

It was a joke prolly

[@gemininy1211]

But why is he blurred

[@DWQMusic]

It was clearly a joke

[@TheMadAfrican1]

Man. Those bodybuilders from the old days are truly amazing to me. They didn't have the same amount of high tech equipment, bodybuilding wasn't considered "normal", and yet they did mad things that are still impressive to this day.

[@DomReacts]

They used steroids a lot also though

[@petercsakvari5519]

​@@DomReacts Ye, especially the guys who have been showcased as the greap PRE STEROID ERA bodybuilders. They did a lot of steroids somehow...

[@vandalg282]

Eugen Sandow and the rest were natural, they just also had some great genetics (muscle wise). Notice how they were all small.

[@chx1975]

Franklin Delano Roosevelt (!) had insane upper body strength. He had an elevator fitted in the Potomac inside a fake smokestack which was just a wooden platform hanging from a rope, he rolled his wheelchair onto it and pulled himself up hand over hand. Look for the image titled "Franklin Roosevelt in a swimsuit at Warm Springs, Georgia. 1930" you can see some of it.

[@HighNewzatNoon-oh2dr]

Hahaha do you guys know what boat are? Like sailing ships with sails? Yeah these guys would climb up and down these things called ropes to fix the sails. No they didn't have internet on the ships.

[@R_Aceves]

I loved the MPMD cameo here 😂 Even if you blur everything his voice is still so extremely recognizable.

[@pravarp]

Even if he changed the voice, the moment he said supraphysiological, it would have revealed it

[@mk250647]

Bruh not even that, saw the background and knew it was him HAHHA

[@HexadecimalDump]

I feel like this is just a joke

[@gustavoterzaghi2352]

his voice?? it's the sauna that gave it away

[@DrowninGGaming]

Dunno what you're on about, that person was anonymous - no way we can definitively say that was Derek, or whomever else... 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@shawnmendrek3544]

So glad you made this. So many KZbins and pros lie about their steroid use and it makes young men and women think they can get that big and when they find out they plateaued they will hit the juice. It really grinds my gears. Do not forget about muscle memory, if you worked out before, the muscle mass comes back fast in the beginning, but typically your strength remains consistent for the most part if you stop. Remember, taking GH/test, will lead to rages, yes it can make a person very aggressive to their family, loved ones. So beware of the roid abusers. LOL @ 5 months of test w/o working out gaining more muscle than 15 years of natural training, wow. It is a cheat mode for sure, I can understand why some do it, to be fair. Long term cons are not worth it but many will come here and tell me "oh man it's safe just use a pct", lol ok.

[@KyleWasHere101]

I went from 420 lbs to 170 in two years with intense cardio training and some weight training. Then dirty bulked to 260 when I met my wife who is a great cook then leaned back out to 190. It’s been a fun natty journey that I’m very thankful for all that I’ve done and been able to achieve. Always want to dive into the stuff to see and for kicks but now that I have a family of 5, I won’t even dare.

[@rbtdainvincible5222]

how tall are you? im just curious

[@KyleWasHere101]

@@rbtdainvincible5222 6’1

[@adamzoubi96]

Smart man!

[@side3672]

@@rbtdainvincible5222assuming 6ft+ with those numbers if he’s 190 ‘lean’

[@smuller1090]

@@rbtdainvincible5222 he is probably ~5'10"

[@fentontaylor9021]

I trained pretty hard from age 50 to 55 and gained about 15 lbs of muscle and totally plateaued after about 5 years. Still worth it for overall health and fitness.

[@MrKarlozz]

The longevity benefits are invaluable!

[@Jaycox420]

Any TRT?

[@steve-dq7hh]

Did you build new muscle cell or did your muscle just get pumped up

[@Peacekeeper_84]

Awesome! 💪

[@anshulshrivastava1518]

I heard that people can gain 9to11kg muscle in their first year of lifting is that false?

[@pwenkojammy2894]

Dude this is hilarious and amazing. I JUST got into watching a bunch of Derek recently and this crossover comes right on the heels of it after years of watching Jeff. Truly perfect timing

[@carterhalo255]

“Anonymous expert” 😂😂

[@LeoAr37]

@@carterhalo255 that had me rolling lmao

[@domenicopellegrino2963]

@@carterhalo255 no idea who he is but he seems like a dude who could have some well developed delts

[@qverk1427]

I am another of your silent viewers but i wanted you to know I appreciate your videos. I have been lifting for 3ish years and have utilized your advice countless times to improve my lifting and increase my knowledge of the body. Hopefully you see this comment. Thank you again!

[@youtubasoarus]

The only thing that surprised me was the muscle growth without working out. That's crazy.

[@UniversalCompass]

Haha yep! You'll never look at steroid users who claim "steroids don't do anything if you don't put in the work" the same way🤣🤣

[@Ultrabenbooyah]

It is all just water weight. They likely gained zero muscle.

[@bighoss4743]

@@Ultrabenbooyah7 pounds of water weight? Lmfao get real kid.

[@Ultrabenbooyah]

@@bighoss4743 do you think they gained 7 pounds of muscle without working out? That's not how testosterone works. Especially if not using any aromatase inhibitors, you'll get bloated from all the estrogen, on top of the water weight from increased glycogen storage.

[@TheRooster1337]

@@Ultrabenbooyah 20 lbs water weight, sure

[@BaldOmniMan]

In my opinion, Using Alex and Geoffrey as examples for natural limits when they don’t promote this idea themselves is problematic. This isn’t really reflective of their results either. Alex put on half an inch on his arms and like 3 inches on his legs, after 10 years of training, and Geoffrey put on an entire inch on his arms recently. Also, Geoffrey for example at around the 2:53 mark is much leaner in the after than he is in the before, that’s not a similar level of leanness - you can see it in his face for example how much leaner he actually is at 193 than he was at 150. Meaning he’s put on a good bit more than 40 lbs Nothing but respect man, this is just my opinion!

[@vanquish5023]

Whether or not they promote it or not, natural limit is a biological fact. It varies based upon the individual, but there is a limited amount of muscle a natural lifter can build based upon time, training, diet, test levels, age, etc. That limit is also lower than if someone is enhanced. I get fighting against the limiting idea that you can't build a good physique naturally but saying "there is not natty limit" is incorrect.

[@AlexanderRodriguez-lm1qw]

@@vanquish5023max bench?

[@The3Lego3Freak]

​@@vanquish5023how can you say that? We have zero research on the 'natural limit'; we know that with proper training and recovery natural lifters can continue to gain muscle even after a decade plus of lifting. Will it be a small amount of muscle per year? Yes. Does that mean it's nothing? No. As long as you're willing to put in the effort it is possible to gain 1-3lbs of muscle each year when advanced, that adds up man. Now, you could make the argument "well, is the effort that would take actually worth it" and that's a fair statement - the answer is it depends on the person.

[@LePrimo420]

⁠@@vanquish5023is there really a natural limit if we never get there. I’ve never seen anybody reach that point where they can’t make any more progress naturally. Natural limit is just an excuse people use to take drugs because they want to reach their goals quicker

[@BaldOmniMan]

@@vanquish5023we know enough to know there are slower gains after a while, but forward progression will be made until you die/grow old. Steroids increase your rate of progression, simple as that, but returns similarly diminish after a while. This isn’t a “limit” though This fact is reflective in so many people’s results on this platform. As I said, Geoff and Alex look NOTABLY bigger than they did a few years ago, almost 10 years into training. Fellas can believe what they want, but I just wanted to point out that using those two as examples for the natural limit argumentation doesn’t function, because they are two direct examples of why there isn’t one. Jeff misrepresented a few things that I simply wanted to give my opinion on, there’s no beef or anything.

[@Andreas_Maybach]

One of the best videos on this topic. Great work. I'm lifting naturally for 30 years, starting around 20. During my frist year without any knowledge I gained around 10 lbs (4,5 kg). The 2nd year I gained around 4-5 lbs (2 kg) and the years later maybe 2 lbs per year. I reached my best physique around 30, so approx. 10 years later. In this time range I added around 25 lbs (11 kg) of muscle. I'm 5´11 (180 cm) and my best physique was arounf 180 lbs (82 kg) at 7-8 % bodyfat. Now with 50 I still weigh around 83 to 85 kg but with a higher bodyfat of approx. 12 to 13%. I'm still very happy with my body. No issues, no pain, no injuries. Compared to the guys who started at the same time but used PEDs, I really look better at 50 and I'm healthy.

[@arnoldmarcus3634]

Building a great physique drug free while young serves you for life.

[@Rapscallion2009]

Yep. But it depends what you're going for. A balanced, healthy physique or just pursuing maximum mass or maximum strength. Channing Tatum is a long way from The Rock. But both have done an admirable job of achieving their goals.

[@johncash-vr4ks]

definitely use yourself as an example, i myself have been training since i was 17.....i am 54, almost everyone that sees me says "he's on steroids"...lol, best compliment ever, yes i do have good genetics, at 25 after 7 years of training and an enlistment in the USARMY i was 6'1 240lbs, pretty solid, this seems like my limit without accumulating too much body fat, at 54 i am 220 and ripped...........never TOUCHED A STEROID. All i ever took was creatine, HMB, multi-vitamin and some glucosamine for joints..........from 17 to 25 was VERY hard work but after that things get easier, i credit this to muscle memory, dedication to a great diet and great form in the gym and consistency............awesome vid and seeing you at the natural show should give EVERYBODY the understanding that with massive amounts of hard work and study you can achieve an awesome AND HEALTHY physique!

[@McDagger90]

Seeing Derek show up as the "anonymous expert" is like Captain America making a cameo in one of the marvel movies haha

[@actionms8566]

Another pro side of staying natural: I've been going to the gym since I was 17. Now at 34, I had a really bad snowboarding accident. I couldn't train for 5 month but was positively surprised by how little muscle I lost. Three month later and I'm nearly where I was before. I have seen guys in the gym who were way bigger than I will ever be and then saw them a year later looking like they never lifted in their life.

[@graphicimpulse]

you didn't have an amount of muscle to lose in the first place sorry to burst your bubble lol

[@johnnymeringues987]

No pro side in terms of mass or size whatsoever...unless it comes to the size of your heart and dying at 50

[@gustavalbericchidurocher9764]

Ive trained clean for an year, stopped for 5 months and it did feel, in the mirror, like I lost everything.

[@brianrasmussen2956]

The longer the body spends in a certain state, it will usually try to stay there. That said, when people are recovering (and I've seen a lot) there are so many factors in play. Any type of movement, walking, swimming or even crawling will promote the body holding on to muscle mass. When bedridden 100% and if the patient is struggling to eat, we oftentimes see and accelerated muscular atrophy. Some studies show that there could be a link between how fast a patient recovers and depression. Just to mention a few factors. Have a good one 🙂

[@mustang8206]

Steriods are a lot more nuanced than "stop taking and lose all muscle"

[@Dunger974]

5:55 wow, this anabolic expert sounds very knowledgeable, he should start his own fitness channel. It would probably be pretty successful

[@atyabtosif584]

Imagine if he called it more plates more dates, perfection

[@blackdynamite_5470]

He should film in a sauna And he should never do a tour of the sauna, instead he should just keep promising that he will

[@anshhindu2045]

He is derek

[@osamabinladen6070]

Maybe one day he will get the death-star delts

[@jeremyburnette1733]

Something else to consider, these studies only looked at the results of taking different dosages of testosterone. Nearly all enhanced lifters, professional or otherwise, are taking far more than just testosterone alone. Most enhanced lifters are taking a combination cocktail of different anabolic drugs, along with testosterone, such as Decca and trenbolone, which are both more anabolic than testosterone. Then you add in HGH and some anti-estrogen drugs and you start to get closer to what pro bodybuilders use.

[@hbriem]

I'm a 60-year-old natural powerlifter (no TRT), training since I was 41 and I'd estimate I've added between 15-18kg of muscle, most of it in the first 5 years. I started at about 80kg, now at around 96, but a fair bit leaner and a trouser size down since then.

[@JFearless]

That’s incredible man. I’ve trained haphazardly since my 20’s. Prob got around 10lbs noobie gains back then. Really messing around though. Some boxing and calisthenics. Not eating right. Not consistent at all. It did have a dramatic impact on my aesthetics…but it really just meant going from skinny to slightly less skinny. Big change but certainly didn’t look like I lifted at all. Long periods of no lifting since then. Fast forward to 40 just after my birthday. Started lifting properly. Started eating right. Been incredibly consistent. I train hard and often. I focus on the deep stretch. I consume science based content and tweak form and program often. Always curious and evolving. It hasn’t even been a year, but at 40 years old, people are finally starting to say bro you look big. You got jacked. Etc. etc. I’ve even been asked by friends if I’m natty, even by a friend who is not himself 😂 from always being skinny this is music to my ears. I was unsure what was even possible at 40…but I shouldn’t have been. It’s clearly had a massive impact on my physique. I was worried I’d run out of runway at my age, but I was wrong. Tbh I was still worried even now being not so young anymore that this might be it…but hearing what you just said, and combining that with my own experiences of the last year…I’m not so worried anymore. These weren’t noobie gains. Got those long ago. I realize now what is possible if you just do the work and do it well, in and out of the gym. plan to max out my natty FFM, even at my age, and I believe I can!!! Cheers 🤜🏼🤛🏼

[@chrisweidner4768]

Yep. I’m 65 and been at 5 9’ 218 lbs. for like the last 20 years. Keep enjoying the process. 100% natural.

[@mustang8206]

Actually you gained some muscle and mostly water weight

[@JFearless]

@@mustang8206 Over 20 years? I’m not really understanding this comment. Water weight fluctuates constantly and if you want to get dry you can, not that I’d recommend it. You don’t really “gain” water weight over a period of time…other than the fact that muscles are mostly composed of water so in gaining muscle you are indeed adding water, but that’s still “muscle”. You can’t add muscle without it.

[@hbriem]

@@JFearless I'm also around three times as strong as I was, so it's not all "water".

[@Meriquium]

Dude, honestly, thank you for making this video. The gym culture needed it so badly. So many points to help people calm down and think about things rationally. Seriously, thank you. Also, the video was dope and super informative, as always! 🫡 👏🏾 👏🏾 👏🏾

[@NumberTwo-zg9bk]

You don't sound too intelligent. Stop saying honestly, for one. There is no honesty here. You want honesty then stop confiding in another drug addict.he hasn't been natural since he was 18.. stop being so easily impressed. Lower the iq the easier impressed. This is you. 🤯

[@kweechy]

Haha yes, but at the same time I can't see this video and not think about how good TRT sounds now. Even just doing a 300mg dose for 20wks one time sounds like it would set people up for a lifetime of great lifting, and I can't imagine that a single 20wk TRT cycle would come with much health drawbacks longterm...seems like those things are happening to people who are massively juicing for many years. If only I knew where the hell to get any of it

[@aidanarisian3375]

⁠@@kweechyhoping on TRT prematurely is a horrible idea, TRT does come with side effects, and for what? Does your body naturally produce test? If so, why ruin your natural ability to be anabolic. The answer is for ego, have you trained for years? I would bet money you’re far away from your natural potential, and the true motivation is the promise of easy gains. Believe in yourself, you have the capacity to build muscle without the injection of hormones, please don’t do it. Focus on improvising your test through behaviors if you desire more, and have the pride in yourself that even if slower than enhanced, you can build an incredible physique

[@mrnickcyp123]

@@kweechy i can smell the low self esteem from here

[@eliasekstrom6660]

@@aidanarisian3375 beaituful speech, man. AMEN! I would recommend @kweechy to try crack cocaine instead.

[@ReallyNoAlex]

Geoffrey and Alex are two of my favorite fitness channels on the platform, glad they’re getting some good attention

[@angadgrewal9324]

what about natural hypertrophy?

[@KurokamiNajimi]

@@angadgrewal9324​​⁠His last training video exposed something massive that explains some of his training philosophies. He counts failure the same way Dr Mike does. Pussy training where “technical failure” not being able to perform an exercise with perfect form is failure. Even though in reality you can do another 3-5 reps. With this in mind him saying you don’t need deloads while also claiming he doesn’t leave reps in the tank outside of strength work and training 6 days a week with high volume makes way more sense. It also makes more sense that he preaches this bullshit idea of needing strength work for hypertrophy because intensity (the strength work) and volume is driving growth

[@al-dart2854]

I jumped off my chair when I saw NH,Geoff, and Alex 😂 So happy that they're featured here

[@CrispyRaha]

​@@KurokamiNajimiyou don't have to agree with every single thing that comes out of NH's mouth, but it cannot be denied there's hundreds of hours worth of quality content on his channel.

[@mikehunt5106]

@@KurokamiNajimiI always thought it was sus that he said he didn’t need deloads

[@matthasahand5495]

"I brought in an anonymous anabolics expert" "oh, so it's going to be Derek?" Lmao I thought I'd at least have to decipher the voice but then it's the worst censoring ever 😂 nice 👌

[@JO-pz6uf]

Jeff, that was one of the most interesting, well put together and informative videos I have ever come across. Well done mate, a credit to you and your team.

[@montymatthew1784]

I started natural bodybuilding when I was 19 at 6'2" and 168lbs and after 5 grueling years I weighed 220lbs at about12% bf. I got my arms to 19 inches which they remain today at my age of 54.

[@dexrexpex]

19 inch arms at 54 has to be a record of some sort.

[@kelemenaron]

impressive man, keeping 19" arms at the age of 54 is insane

[@WAkoPakelz]

You have my utmost respect, good sir.

[@nischal711]

My dad doesn't train as much but in his prime he had a legit 18 inch arm but he still maintains 16.5inch arms as he is a builder.

[@iamatlantis1]

your Mother's a 19 inch bicep.

[@OwlScowling]

Wow we'll never discover who this anonymous anabolics expert is.

[@FullAutoApolotics]

I was hoping to find myself in this somewhere. I really don't know what my potential is. I began lifting at 20, got serious for a few years, put on a decent amount of muscle, got married, and things got busy, career, family, etc, I did not train for decades. I worked hard so I lost muscle but not at the rate some people would by sitting in an office. Now I'm a few months from 54. Just started back. I've been fat, had surgeries, and things went badly, I am determined to lose fat and get some bulk to protect my spine. Using calorie deficit, perfect protein intake (close), and working out 5 days a week, not playing around but not with unrealistic goals. So with that context, I went from 330 and fat to 290 and fat over a year and a half, and now I'm back in it and have been dieting for 3 months. My goal is 230, then I will asses and refine my goals. I don't want to be small, I hope to grow into it. I am building muscle but my body is jacked up in so many places and I'm getting older, so I need to figure out this issue. Can I realistically do what I'm trying to do? Am I wasting time trying to gain some muscle while losing fat? Has my body reached a point where my curve is flat? After watching this well-made video I can't put myself in the new building category, my new gains happened long ago, but if I lost them and haven't pushed, is there any way that can happen again to any extent? I feel like I am putting in a bit too much effort if all I can really do is lean up and put on a small amount of muscle. If that is the case then I would still do what I am doing but I would not be muscle focused. It sucks getting old and then finding out it's almost useless to try to fix things. Sorry this is long, do you have a video that may cover some of my questions? Thanks for the good work. Subbing and liking your vids. I know this is a bit off-topic, but it's a real question.

[@scottejohnson83]

I use to lift with Shaun Clarida back in the early 2000s. We both went to the same University. He's always been crazy dedicated and incredibly strong. Glad to see him succeeding, but the growth is insane IMO.

[@Zacky.]

I have a friend who goes to his main gym and he says that he trains like an absolute beast! You gotta check out his workout vids cause his energy in them is contagious

[@pathologicaldoubt]

Gotta love how Derek always insists ‘you can’t get big just using steroids, you gotta know how to train’ meanwhile the data empirically shows you don’t even need to train to get bigger than you could naturally with training.

[@henkkaa88]

That's because he is on roids

[@tjxwheel7812]

@@henkkaa88yes he pins test 200 mg hes open about it hé did much bigger cycles when hé was younger and steroids Dont make You dumb you know

[@GlacialScion]

Over a 10 week period. You eventually plateau hard with just steroids and then lose everything when you go off them if you're not training.

[@LaM0NK3Y]

Jeff was slightly misleading, it’s fat free mass not muscle. This includes water weight which steroids will actually increase a ton. It could also include organs or bones or whatever else might be affected by steroids.

[@kinginthenorth1437]

Doing that kind of damage to yourself for subpar instead of optimal results is just stupid.

[@FacelessOfficial1]

5:47 Jeff be smiling 'cause he already knew back then how good this joke would be after editing...

[@AUniqueHandleName444]

Definitely lol

[@bubblehubble1029]

Exactly my thought 😂

[@neostenagas8570]

I hate those Influencer that use the same lame false excuse "You have to train hard even on roids". Some bullshit excuse to make them feel better and confuse little kids. They do a 1year roid phase and then start a channel, talking about how they build muscle and promote every crap supplement, meanwhile people that train for 2 - 3years with a good diet and all, get no fair chance.

[@sergtv9638]

I train more than 10 years nat and got no fair chance🤣

[@VlogCreations]

Great video. Thank u

[@MrMr-oj7hl]

I love you Ross

[@jhudson_tiedye]

ross

[@easygoingjuan986]

ross boutta start juicin 😁

[@RealKered]

I agree, I thought bringing Derek in was funny asf

[@a.i2052]

lmao ross do you even lift?

[@JamesMaccarone]

Fantastic video. I'm 47 and have been training naturally since I was 18. It's amazing what your body can produce naturally if you train with proper form and intensity and have proper nutrition. It's a long road but the joy is in the grind.

[@h4gg497]

That's like grinding in a shit job for 20+ years when you could have had an opportunity to get promoted in half a year. There's no joy in the grind. You know who's experiencing joy? The geared dudes in their 20s who are bult like Zeus.

[@vlk092]

gotta work for the long run! shortcuts don't usually end well eheh cheers

[@brettbecomesautistic]

Thanks for the "joy is in the grind" statement. I'm 53 and I started my fitness/lifting journey a year and a half ago. I have been tempted to go on TRT by so many influencers and personal trainers etc. but have thus far resisted. The longer I stay off it the prouder i am of myself and my progress, and indeed, the joy is in the grind, so why do I want to attach an outside energy source to the grinder if i enjoy the grind. Getting bigger is a bonus now, not the point of the exercise. My health and mobility are the main points and those will almost certainly be compromised if I start juicing - see Ronnie.

[@MR12AMAZING]

​@@brettbecomesautisticRonnie is an extreme example though.

[@FitLabb]

After consistently training for about 30 years, I still make small gains here and there for a variety of reasons. I’ve yet to meet anyone, client or friend, who’s reached their true natural genetic limit (including pro athletes), as it’s extremely difficult and rare to ever fully max out your potential.

[@TheWillofB]

Hmm well true natural potential gonna be an asymptote. If you lived forever you’d still never reach it, you’d just get closer and closer. I think true natty potential should be looked at as something you approach instead of hit.

[@rjScubaSki]

That’s why the whole “natural potential first” is such weird advice.

[@EvanZamir]

It's logarithmic!

[@Thomas-zt7dm]

I’d go as far to say it’s impossible and that I think it depends much more on the window you have to make potential gains.

[@SUPER8ALTERN8]

Everyone has some neglected muscles too there's always adductors, calves, rear delts, hamstrings, rhomboids, lower mid traps, upper chest fibres which are neglected by so many - you might be near maxxed out on biceps but there is so much more, I'm only 3 years into lifting but didn't isolate rear delts and neglected calves at all until recently and saw such explosive growth from putting some work in on them.

[@JerryBrummett]

I am FLOORED at the gains from juicing and not even training. Honestly, this video made me want to hop on some gear. Lifetime natty. I do appreciate some of the comments from the juicers saying to stay clean. Since I'm nowhere near naturally tapped out, I'll stay on my grind. Great info. Thanks!

[@yo_mama_0049]

A small (pedantic) note: If you add 40 lbs while maintaining a given body fat percentage (say, 10%), then 10% of those 40 lbs are actually fat gains, and you only gained 36 lbs of muscle.

[@valdemar621]

You must be fun at parties

[@jamespattison2114]

@@valdemar621tbh, we are all sitting here watching 13 minutes of scientific literature for weight lifting. None of us are fun at parties lol.

[@gamersocks2741]

Also a certain amount of gained lean body mass does not mean that is actually all muscle. It also could be water (relevant for the 1996 study).

[@Singdisorder31]

Good note

[@Anyone700]

Jeff very specifically said lean mussel gain. If there was such doubt about the method they used to come with these figures Jeff would have mentioned it

[@leonlance271]

@5:56 That anonymous anabolic expert seems to be very knowledgeable on the topic. Someone should to him to create a KZbin channel and talk more about this. Because there's definitely an audience for that type of content.

[@wesj1064]

Well done Jeff. Wish I had seen this back in 99 before I pulled the wrong lever far too young. Need more influencers like you. Keep up the good work.

[@justinw1765]

Agree--need more honest/sincere, centered, holistically logical, highly knowledgeable, walks the walk, fairly humble, and not completely/pathologically obsessed with status and/or money, folks. Folks with integrity and self-other responsibility, in other words. Seems to be in rare supply these days. Jeff Nippard for President of Body Building Community--the big P of BBC (whether that's the British news organization or the other BBC, I'll let you cast your own vote)!

[@jesperburns]

@wesj1064 What are/were downsides?

[@wesj1064]

@@jesperburns Gyno for one. High BP and LVH for life now. And then in response to the estrogenic sides my shoulders obliterated from crashing estrogen too low for too long on anastrozole. The gym bro and message board/forum "knowledge" back in '99 was horrendous. Had I known a mere 300mg of test for 16 wks would've gotten where I wanted to be not only could I have saved my health but money as well. Ended up realizing amazing gains on sport TRT doses a decade ago and maintain a great physique for my age (43) with no gear these days thanks to a proper PCT with HCG, fadogia agrestis and tong kat ali. Gear has it's uses and I'm convinced it can be used safely BUT like Jeff said, pull the diet and training levers for several years first and then evaluate if you really need to be THAT much bigger. Likely, you'll be happy with where you're at. And if it's for a woman or women in general, just work on being a solid man a la Jordan Peterson. The good ones would rather that than a meat head. Just my perspective. Hope it helps.

[@christianknudsen6831]

I'm impressed with the results of participants that took testosterone and didn't workout. It's considerable!

[@WarpedYT]

Amazing Video man That is some insanely interesting information! Your anonymous expert love him.

[@Izarious]

Wtf i love your videos man i was shocked to see you here!

[@WarpedYT]

@@Izarious thanks so much... I am finally back working and hope to have more crazy vids out soon.

[@johnp999]

@@WarpedYT Do a CAT drinking in slow-mo! It is really cool, and you can have them drink from a saucer, out of a dripping faucet, water vs. milk, etc.

[@WarpedYT]

@@johnp999 crazy! My 8 year old nice just mentioned the exact same thing to me last week. I might have to do it

[@arslans3036]

glad to see Alex, Geoffrey, and Natural hypertrophy getting some recognition

[@crazyaboutgains157]

Where is NH I can't see where Jeff referenced him

[@jeetkd09]

@@crazyaboutgains157 he didn’t, just a picture in the opening scenes

[@crazyaboutgains157]

@@jeetkd09 got it

[@arslans3036]

@@crazyaboutgains157 about 3 seconds in lol. he didn't get mentioned explicitly

[@spleenwort7834]

I like how the thumbnail is the same picture, ones just a little larger 😂

[@CarneGranada]

What would this anonymous anabolics expert have to say about the correlation between adding more plates to your lifts and getting more dates?

[@jacobdavis9345]

I’m assuming these same principles apply to strength gain, but not quite to the same extent. It would be interesting to see a similar video addressing this

[@sw-gz9ps]

Its unlikely that you would truly max out your strength before getting weaker due to old age. There are so many avenues to stimulate strength gain, from novel exercises, to accessories. The way i see it you could never really run out of exercises to get stronger on, the only thing limiting you is injury, and aging.

[@pablov1323]

not at all. Renaissance periodization has a video about it. There is a metastudy I think by Nuckels, that states that enhanced lifters could lift as average only 10% more than naturals same wieght class. I was surprised how small was the difference kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpuzpId4YtiqfpY

[@benmacdonald5625]

@@pablov1323 thanks for this. i went looking for it. summary: ~10% to 15% gain in lifts. much less of an effect on strength than on size. pretty counterintuitive to me. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rpuzpId4YtiqfpY

[@heathercherylmason.]

​@@pablov1323I was gonna say the same thing my distinguished fellow rp strength follower.

[@SUPER8ALTERN8]

@@pablov1323 flawed research, tested doesnt mean natural so you cant compare records and say steroids only add 10% to the max as many tested lifters are cycling on and off between competition, its impossible to say the actual impact. The people that report natural max and max after steroids are always way more than 10%

[@earlprinsloo9632]

Hey Jeff. Great video. I am 37 years old, always been skinny and I am Type 1 diabetic. It'll be interesting to include the glycemic control factor and how it plays a role in gaining muscle.

[@TheFalladin]

Ngl, that "steroid w/o training" gaining more mucle compared to "training w/o steroids" is a kick to the balls.

[@corysanderson6177]

at least you have balls to kick

[@benwagner742]

I think a lot of us need to question if more is really always better. Will having more muscle than Alex or Geoffrey actually make you look and feel better? I think a lot of us would say no. Stay natural.

[@justinw1765]

Yeah, I think the psychologically healthy goals should be functional strength and fitness, and primarily true health. People that have an obsession with getting ever bigger and bigger and who are willing to take boat loads of gear to do so, often seem to fall into one or more categories--high insecurity, OCD, NPD, body dysmorphia, and/or their revenue flow and status/image in the world depends on their size (competitors, influencers, supplement hawkers, etc). But all in all, that whole scene seems like the very definition of a dysfunctional mess psychologically and consciousness/spiritually wise. I'm glad I never got into it. I'm sometimes half tempted to try TRT because I'm in my mid 40's now, and my motivation and energy has definitely significantly reduced (along with sex drive though I don't have ED issues at all). But even with that, not so sure I want to go that route, and if I ever did, I would want to keep my testes from shutting down completely (that is literally disturbing to me).

[@musclesmurf8528]

Unfortunately sometime or goals get amplify from how ppl see us until we find a way to calm or asses down lol

[@limitisillusion7]

Lol, I don't even do cut and bulk cycles cuz I think don't think they're healthy, let alone steroids.

[@Loo_Kah]

It looks ugly and it's unhealty. I don't know why anyone would want that

[@frog6054]

I'm 5'6 so weighing around 72-75 kg would look good on me. I'm 63 kg right now 😢

[@TheBest2guard]

This is a video that all beginner lifters should watch. There seems to be a trend of wanting fast results without understanding the fundermentals of lifting. It also happens with equipments and the using of things like lifting belts when the new lifter doesnt know how to naturally brace themselves

[@light-qe3gv]

Lol this video would motivate most beginners to hop on gear

[@uhoh7545]

​@light-qe3gv let the zoomers snap their tendons. Learn the hard way. God knows they don't have the attention span to reach the end of the video with the downsides of juicing.

[@DizzyDisco93]

Im terrified of injuring anything spine related, so i started using a belt for anything over a pair of 45s. I've only been lifting seriously and consistently for about 6 months, though. Loss a lot of body fat and gained 10 pounds.

[@bclarg3248]

Hi Jeff. Thanks for a very educational video. I am returning to weight lifting after a few years off and am grateful for information like yours that helps educate me on what is realistic for natural body builder.

[@damianlsw741]

I have been training naturally for 13 years. I started when I was 13, my weight was around 60-65 kg, I was skinny. Now I'm 26 years old, 91 kg, 180 cm, 43 cm biceps. Regularity and hard training!

[@nikosmn2682]

Same here, 55kg 16 years old to 91-93 kg 30 years old, same size. But now its the limit of natural and i dont take a lot ..

[@LucasDimoveo]

I’m happy to hear you acknowledging other natural bodybuilders on the platform!

[@dkexpat2755]

You are still cheating, and destroying your body :)

[@envisiotube]

This was easily the best video I watched concerning this matter. I love your scientifically, no BS approach. Your work with graphics and photo/video material is awesome. Thanks!

[@ChrisUhlik]

Best comment. Exactly what I wanted to say.

[@W4ng4n470r]

I was mostly interested in the natural muscle gain parts. My heaviest was around 210 before I seriously started working out, I was doing mainly cardio and dropped about 30 pounds down to around 175. Once I started shifting from heavy cardio to weights, my weight also increase; now I'm at 190 at 5'11" It is a little alarming to see the scale go back up again. The difference between the 190 back then and now is that I can still fit into my 32x32 jeans wheras previously I had to wear 34x32s. So knowing the ballpark of how much weight I might put on with a bit of muscle building is important to keep me honest about what my weight actually means. I think we all know who this "Anonymous Anabolics Expert" is

[@jooot_6850]

I feel that. Recently, even though I’m the same weight I was 2 years ago, I find that a lot of clothes just didn’t fit the same anymore. Lifting really might be the best thing you can do for yourself. And hush. Derek- I mean our anonymous expert wants to stay anonymous.

[@amberhannah7471]

How have I been subscribed to you for over a year and just found out you're Canadian! Go Jeff! You rock man.

[@Adam81]

After watching this video it is no wonder why you have over 4M subs. Extreamly well done!!!

[@AlexanderRodriguez-lm1qw]

Love seeing GVS and Alex getting shoutout here. Both are stellar resources for naturals

[@The3Lego3Freak]

Agreed! And both advocate (and prove) the idea that there is no 'natural limit'

[@pmgalves1977]

Yes, but they promote more on the lines of “don’t let it limit you” rather than “there is no limit” - which obviously there is

[@herminio9961]

​@@pmgalves1977where is the limit?

[@mikolajakubiec666]

​@@pmgalves1977Alex has said multiple times that there's no limit. And he's right. As far as I know Geoff's stance is that there's a limit but it's realistically not possible to reach it. He's also right.

[@Pedro_Le_Chef]

@@pmgalves1977 Natural limit is a myth, GVS and Alex also state that.

[@FNHot]

One thing he doesnt mention, is that if you're on a lower dose 200-600mg, steroids also make you FEEL amazing. You have energy, everything is great, you're happy, up for anything ... so starting them can be a slippery slope, because you dont want it to end.

[@h4gg497]

Well it's also the endorphin rush of actually seeing rapid progress, and changes in both body composition and strength every single week.

[@Ferrum_Anima]

Damn, that sounds like something it would be impossible to quit.

[@uruacufutsal1]

Its like getting a high from illegal drugs

[@FNHot]

@@uruacufutsal1 it's not THAT obvious. You dont inject and immediately you're flying a rocket through all the colors of space. It's more like the feeling you get when you have a good day, everything feels like it's going your way. You feel unstoppable, happy, and you wanna get shit done. But every day, and you start to notice it about 2-3 injections in, as the substance builds in your body.

[@richardcisneros5474]

Jeff was freaking stacked even when he was natural. Talk about good genes, hard work and dedication on top of dieting.

[@ryanthomastew]

This is a great video and I always love your content! I'm 47 and started training harder than I ever have in my life at the literal tail end of last year. I've seen some moderate but fulfilling gains. My guns stretch my shirt, especially post workout when I am crazy pumped. However the biggest gain for me is how much BETTER I FEEL! Like I feel emotionally better more of the time than I did before. I still have some dark days/weeks but lifting has been a fucking lifesaver. Anyway Jeff keep up the great work so we can CONSUME ITS GOODNESS!

[@matthiasblum6555]

Yeah, exactly, it's just lifts your mood and your day gets better! Sports, lifting weights, is just great for you. I am 49 and I started to workout again just last year, I feel so much better now. We should preach this over and over again for the young people who have problems with mental health. Sports are just the best!

[@benjivilla970]

yeah I’m 27, never was big into lifting weights. Did more calisthenics type exercises, not for any particular reason other than that’s all I really knew. Started lifting a couple weeks ago consistently and a lot of anxiety and depression I dealt with suddenly felt like it become damn near nothing.

[@ryanthomastew]

@@benjivilla970 a lot of things I’ve read and watched lately. Indicate that there are Neuro regenerative proteins, released post weightlifting that helped with brain and neurological development as well as all the beneficial hormones we get that can help us come back depression. If I remember correctly, these effects are not just during the lifting, but last over many hours, and maybe even days. I’ve also really worked hard over the past few years to get a healthy sleep schedule, but it was really the weightlifting that lifted my veil of depression. .

[@keso_r]

Note for Cbums gains on gear: he indeed could gain more, but he is very close to the weight cap for his height in the Olympia. He would have to gain over an inch in height in order to be allowed to weigh more I think. He talked about it on the Modern Wisdom podcast.

[@WindFrozer]

yeah. i mean theres no question he could hop on a "traditional" cycle and compete in the open division. but why would he? he has the perfect physique for classic. he could probably even up the dose and slack off a bit at the gym, but he chose to only take as much as necessary granted his training and diet is on point. really gotta respect him

[@szymonkunda2197]

Don't forget that he also has autoimmune disease that prevents him from doing big cycles, he knows he's already gambling with his health but he tries to do it as as safe as possible. Tbh if it wasn't for health reasons I'm sure he would juice more and go to Open and hell, maybe he would be winning there as well seeing how great his genetics are

[@terric703]

Very informative as usual. I'm curious about how quickly the steroid users lost muscle after stopping the injections, especially the group that did not train. I was very shocked that the steroid users that did not exercise gained that much muscle (because I don’t really know much about steroids).

[@beasty007]

Yeah this is a great topic to look into...

[@ontopofitnews]

A related interesting topic is how easy it to stay near your genetic ceiling after 10 years natty, my personal experience is clearly just one person and annadotal but I can maintain 90% my mass with very low effort after many years. Encahnced lifters I have know who ween off gear show a very drastic change within months. How long someone plans to invest in gear and what their come down plan is should also be a part of smart discussion around "jumping in the deep end" imo.

[@ralphinoful]

@@ontopofitnews The enhanced guys I know that came off dropped a lot. But they dropped to what would be their genetic ceiling. They're still massive by any normal metric.

[@ConnoisseurOfExistence]

I have taken low doses of steroids for few small cycles in my life. I've never cared about bodybuilding thought, just about strength. Also, I've never been a pro athlete of any kind, just enjoy training for myself. I did my 1st steroid cycle on 5 mg of dbol per day, which is a very low dose according to many sources. I had 3-4 years of lifting experience before that and was 19 years old. I've had reached some plateau on my bench press at 105 kg for the last 2 months before I started the cycle. The cycle was 40 days. On the 40th day exactly my bench press was 135 kg - +30kg (about 65lbs) from before that. After that I just kept exercising the same way and didn't loose any strength on my bench press for the next 3 months.

[@Wildonnor]

are you still lifting that much on bench without it? Just from consistently lifting heavy?@@ConnoisseurOfExistence

[@davidcrawley9479]

I think this video is great. I think you should do a video on why you chose to train natural. I wasn't a body builder, but I was a competitive athlete and trained hard to compete at the highest level - problem was I improved and improved and then I peaked. When I peaked I was very very close, but truly I just wasn't quite fast enough and strong enough at the right time to gain entry to the biggest world stage that I so badly wanted. I was doing everything I could do on the training and nutrition. My body ached from all the hard training I was doing and I was fairly certain that there were some people I was competing against for one of those few top slots that were juicing. I decided to compete clean but truly, I don't know if someone had come to me, perhaps a trusted coach or fellow athlete and suggested I do otherwise what I would have done. I was so close, and I needed just a little more - not much - and I made a conscious choice to walk away from it all rather than do that. I think every athlete needs to make that choice for themselves, and I really respect your approach to the subject, because it seems to me that you think that way too. Perhaps you could talk about your own choices and why you made them.

[@Atouk]

I started lifting when I was 14. I gained so much, so quickly. My strength skyrocketed. I'm now 61 and I sure do miss those days of youthful advantages. Now I just stay toned with lots of reps. 45 lb curls, nothing heavy.

[@zbigniewfretka9387]

Damn, Jeff. I love your videos, I'm hyped AF when I see a new one uploaded. The quality of knowledge and video editing is always top-tier. But this video? You made it so enjoyable to watch, that I was sad when it finished. This one is like a top-quality documentary. Bravo!

[@geneharrogate6911]

Jesus...Get a fcuken room already..

[@sebbwebbo7557]

Nice video. I tested some roids many years ago. A friend of mine gave me some tabs for free (forgot what exactly it was), that i took for some weeks. I just played around with some dumbbells during this time and gained a few kgs of muscle (or whatever it was) without a lot of effort. It was like never losing the pump after training and the feeling was fantastic. After I ate all of my tabs (as I just wanted to test it) I lost all the gains in a relatively short time. I stopped training afterwards for ~ 2 years as I was completely demotivated :D I never took anything like that stuff ever again. But after I started training again, it took me ~ 1+ year for the same body that I build up in a few weeks with roids. It's a strange feeling sometimes when I hit the gym and see guys 15 years younger than me, that train for 1 year and are as big or bigger than I am.. But the good thing with growing older is, that you don't really care about what other people think about you, as much as a you do as a young person.

[@miglehp4592]

no wonder people end up using enhancentments, I still highly admire natural body builders like you and I hope I can get my body to look anything like yours in the next few years, thank you for being an inspiration Jeff

[@cldavis33]

LIfelong bodybuilder here....this is an amazing video you have created. I know this from watching hundreds of BB's. I stayed natural, but I know the truth. What i didnt' know was the studies showing no training. That is astounding. The health risks are absolutely not worth it. I am now 58. I still have basically all the muscle I build years and years ago. Do it right and you get very solid results.

[@lucaslloveras]

I think this is one of the best videos on your channel. Exceptionally clear, graphic, well researched. I would love to request a part II with not only the side effects and the odds of them happening but with the duration of the effects. For example: how much time did the research group conserved their muscle mass?

[@douglasauruss]

Yes and one thing that wasn't brought up is how tendons aren't going to get strong as quickly as muscle on steroids so you're significantly more likely to pop a tendon. Peck or bicep comes right off the bone. Oof. Noooo thanks.

[@Basarakn]

Yo i have this stupid question lets say hypothetically i stop training legs so if i have 12 kg of natural muscle left to put on can it be so that the whole 12 kgs of muscle goes to the upper body if i dont train legs at all(HYPOTHETICALLY) ??

[@h4gg497]

@@douglasauruss Not really. How many guys on gear does that happen to? I'd say a very small minority. Particularly if you're not doing some kind of powerlifting style routine and maxing out every week.

[@ancientcolors]

@@Basarakn Nope, these 12kg are just the total change in pure muscle weight, all of them combined. You won´t train to a 12kg+ biceps if you only do curls. (Don´t do the chicken)

[@douglasauruss]

@@h4gg497 I don't know how many beginners get on gear

[@gloafbun4600]

One more thing to consider is that how they measured the bodyfat and muscle growth. The dexascans work in a way that if a muscle fills with water, it will consider you gained muscles. Meaning, the more test people took, the more water they gained because of estrogens, some of this water filled in muscles and they counted it as a muscle growth. After the cycle, they will come back where they were or even worse (if not doing PCT).

[@michaeleddy9061]

Jeff, I love your content, it's extremely valuable. But...this may be some of the best and most important content you've ever produced. Expectation vs. reality vs. the layman. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[@PeteCerqua]

Possibly one of the best presentations on this subject ever. Great job Jeff!!

[@recreationallifting]

It’s seriously cool seeing GVS and Alex in your videos. I’m super proud of those guys and how y’all promote lifetime natural lifting.

[@idiramara1]

Except Nipard doesnt

[@masterwmatrix]

5:50 Anonymous, good joke 🤣🤣

[@georgeseriani2482]

I started training naturally on may 29th 1979. I weighed 138lbs after training naturally now over 44 years later I weigh a lean 242lbs btw I don't approach failure I trained all the way to full concentric failure then I put the weight down for 15 seconds then do two to three more reps.. And I only train twice a week and half the time I train only once a week.

[@NM-hq1io]

Just finished your PPL plan on a bulk (technically not done but on the final deload week lol) - gained 5KG, more stronger, more bigger & can’t wait to go again. Thanks Jeff!

[@KarlMeyer]

That anonymous anabolic expert seems like he knows a lot. He should make a KZbin channel 😊

[@bjf5027]

Been training naturally and consistently fro 20 years and I noticed a decrease each year in the amount of muscle gained, however i have always been able to make progress from one year to the next. In the beginning 5 years it was 3-6 lbs per year, the next 5 years slowly declined to around 2-5 lbs per year and since then its been about 1-3 lbs per year.

[@budthecyborg4575]

Is that with a bulking cycle or do you stay relatively the same all the time? A lot of people leave gains on the table just by trying to be lean all the time. Of course bloat max is horribly unhealthy, but there is a healthy middle ground. It's crazy how many people say they're serious about strength goals but then try to live at or below 15% body fat where your diet is almost certainly compromised from a strength training perspective.

[@bjf5027]

@@budthecyborg4575 I'm not a bodybuilder so I don't bulk and cut. But I am definitely more active in the summer and just naturally lose about 10 lbs during that time. Otherwise I stay around 15%bf.

[@gregorycolvin-garcia3908]

Jeff, Just wanted to thank you for doing the hard work it took to produce this very objective vlog. It is so rare to see such a clear eyed look at the data AND put everything into a non moralistic perspective! Much needed in this crazy world of the internet...

[@Feng_of_Draugdor]

Well the natty region for CBum is also while he's still growing up, from 14-19 years old. So the 55 lbs gain is also including bone growth and all of that.

[@NoMercy.62]

Yeah but jeff said cbum was 6.1 at 14 and he's that height now so he didnt grow so there's not much bone in that weight gain

[@stevenw2933]

@@NoMercy.62height is not the only way a person grows naturally, bone density and other tissues also increases as you age.

[@theperfectbeing]

@@NoMercy.62 For most males our bones don't fully solidify until around 25

[@michaelbeholder]

One of the most informative videos on this issue I’ve ever seen. Thank you!

[@tompruyn3492]

Love the nod to GVS, Alex Leonids, and Natural Hypertrophy. Great members of the online natural body building community, deserve the recognition. Great video Jeff, and loved Derek's cameo lol

[@wtfhahahaha]

yea i wish he added bald omni man too, those 4 are the best fitness youtubers

[@forasago]

Natural Hypertrophy was mentioned in this? Got a timestamp?

[@wtfhahahaha]

@@forasago 0:03

[@romanmunar]

@@wtfhahahaha Basement Bodybuilding simplified things down for me. especially his progression videos. I would add and put him above Bald Omniman and Alex for being helpful.

[@wtfhahahaha]

@@romanmunar ah fr? imma check him out bro thanks

[@vivapokolod]

This is exactly what i was looking for. thanks. do you have a similar overview video about Mass gainers?

[@rooster700rr]

Love the straight forward analysis and logical approach to this video. Way too often these days, people try to just make crap up instead of actually doing research. Especially in the health and fitness realm.

[@munchou]

Awesome video! I wish you had talked about the STRENGTH over muscle built, especially in groups that got crazy muscular growth without training. Did it have any changes regarding their strength? Could they lift as much as a natural bodybuilder with as much if less muscle? It would have also been interesting to see the impact on their organs, especially their heart, because let's not forget it's a muscle and that's often one of the main "culprits" when it comes to "early" bodybuilders' death.

[@kevingarcia-gz7or]

he only based the vid on a study. It would be biased to talk about something that wasnt covered in the study.

[@kevingarcia-gz7or]

also the study was only for a few weeks, i doubt thats going to wreck the organs. They can't do longitudinal study regarding steroids if it does harm to the participants. Ethics board won't allow it.

[@spiritualantiseptic]

The heart is mostly affected by the blood becoming so thick from a massive increase in red blood cells count, hence it has to pump harder. There's also a massive strength increase, yes. Check out that study. Other than the physical aspects, anabolic steroids aren't especially "toxic" but they can cause a whole wide range of side effects.

[@ktakashismith]

@@spiritualantiseptic Hematopoiesis isn't really the issue with anabolics. Rapidly adding 20-40lbs. of lean tissue mass and expecting your heart to support that much highly vascularized tissue without experiencing pathological hypertrophy is the issue. Muscle is even more vascularized than adipose tissue, so just imagine how much stress your heart would undergo if you gained 80 pounds of fat in, say, three months.

[@Movement_Pill]

@@ktakashismith Ohooh that's a good point

[@yasmintrains]

as a female who's been training ~7 years, i can definitely tell that the tapering has begun and i had no idea the effects steroids had on untrained participants!

[@maherabdu5358]

haha, thats also because roiders claim the effect is minimal

[@sunbreakermain4887]

In 2008 when I started lifting I was 5’9 135 13 years old. I’ve lifted non stop and only bulked basically and now am 5’11 300 pounds and 29 years old. I’ve been powerlifting consecutively since 2013 and I love it. I did that completely natural and eat a lot of food and protein supplements.

[@derherrdirektor9686]

Thank you for this video Jeff. I've been very unhappy with my lifting progress. I lift super heavy weights but didn't feel the look of my physique would fit with that. Now I know how long it takes to get into form. Now I understand I've actually made tremendous progress. Thank you again.

[@pogo55555]

I am a native French speaker, and when I read your comment, the "into form" caught my eye, because in French we say the same thing to indicate that we are in good physical condition "être en forme". LOL. How's it going, German speaker? Salutations from a French speaker!

[@h4xi0rek]

While unhappiness due to aesthetics is understandable (especially if one compares himself to all these fake fitness celebrities), your joints, liver, kidneys and bones will thank you for it in the long run. Also - being leaner is much more versatile, especially if you wish to mix in some endurance sports :). Keep going, you are doing a good job.

[@Murphator]

would help to take a walk down the mike mentzer rabbit hole

[@patheddles4004]

If the key is to train consistently for a decade or more, then the single most important priority is avoiding injury. Sounds like you're doing a good job of that. And yeah there's a big difference between lifting for aesthetics and lifting for strength - the training is very different. Personally I'll take actual strength over appearance-of-strength any day.

[@burnaxel]

In my case, I want to get strong without gaining extra muscle.

[@magnus_mode]

All right, I stand corrected--I would never have believed gains could happen just for using. That's mind blowing. This has been an extraordinary learning experience. Thank you.

[@dtosmanm4743]

that literally happens between men and women....

[@stayontrack]

@@dtosmanm4743 Steroids make you become a superman, you go past what even the most genetically gifted chad man has in terms of testosterone naturally. The only problem is when you stop using it, your natural levels are killed and you'll have the test levels of a girl. So if you have to or want to come off you have to endure months or years of feeling like garbage (and looking like it too probably, especially compared to on-cycle physique and strength) and hope your natural test production begins functioning again over time. The alternative is getting your manhood out of a bottle for the rest of your life aka TRT for life

[@Neotenico]

5:36 how did I immediately know who the anonymous expert was before I even heard the voice. I recognize that setup, pixelated or not lmfao.

[@jacobramirez4894]

Sauna

[@donmrskos3]

Great video - I watched it, brought my son in, and watched it again with him.

[@Kayudov]

Who is the anonymous steroid expert? It was so “secret”😂 But I am sure he is definitely not Derek MPMD😂❤️

[@UlissC]

Came looking for this comment

[@konstantin4485]

No way. Derek was in sauna at the time Jeff was shooting his video.

[@BATMANal]

Clear.Calm.Cited. And solid advice. Thanks Jeff!

[@nathanbateman4255]

I’ve been training naturally for 13 years. I weigh 198lbs at five foot seven, at about 15% body fat rn. My PL total is 1450. It definitely takes longer to make gains now, but I think I want to try a giga bulk up to 225 to try to break the plateau.

[@dreadformer]

eating less @@thekingsson1757

[@Swegma]

Just discovered your channel, this is amazing how you gather such good informations in a single video !!

[@astonm.8173]

I went from 85kg to 105kg at 6f4 natural after 4 years of daily workouts, slim built. Trained at a hard core gym with semi pros (in Europe you don't really have pros), and have no idea how much gear they were on, but the amount of musle some new guys managed to put on was at least double of mine in half the time.

[@Shijaru64]

Why'd you write your height using the nonsensical imperial if you're in Europe?

[@AlexOjideagu2]

@@Shijaru64 In the UK we use both measurement systems. Most say their height in feet, and use miles for distance.

[@astonm.8173]

@@Shijaru64 To make it easily understandable for non Europeans. I figured everybody knows kg

[@Shijaru64]

@@astonm.8173 Bro, use meters. Almost the entire planet uses metric. I'm not European and I don't use the nonsensical imperial.