OMG! Rare Beauty Lawsuit & Countersuit! Backlash for Addison Rae! | What's Up in Makeup

[@cesileythorson3633]

The Rare Beauty Drama: Rare Beauty Cosmetics has absolutely NO standing here. It doesn't matter who started selling the products first. It matters who owned the trade name first which was not Rare Beauty Cosmetics. The law doesn't work that way. Rare Beauty (By Selena Gomez) gave her an extremely generous offer. She should have taken that. Especially the bit to help her rebrand, etc. That's a HUGE opportunity. I'm not sure why she believes her case is so strong here.

[@sandyvandy6483]

Greed.

[@teri2466]

Bad lawyers

[@isirlasplace91]

Bad greedy lawyers

[@teri2466]

@@isirlasplace91 lol

[@artmaks9363]

Exactly, she's bringing more harm than good to her own company cause apparently she has no idea how things work.

[@brookeashton6169]

I am a trademark attorney. I think Rare Beauty Cosmetics has a very iffy case. It appears that Rare Beauty first filed in Nov 2017. US trademark law has a limited first use rule, but the fact that Selena’s brand filed in 2017 is considered notice to the public that they were claiming the name. Seems like Rare Beauty Cosmetics should have taken the offer, because I doubt that they will win in this case. Also, that 10mil price tag would be pretty hard to prove, even with treble damages, which are allowed in some trademark cases.

[@juliaschmidt4383]

It reads like a cash-grab.

[@mae8016]

thank you for sharing!

[@SelinaCat]

Thank you for your pro input!

[@ElizabethGuillot]

That was my analysis, as well. Glad to hear from someone who specializes; I always worry my law school knowledge is getting rusty!

[@AKbaby89]

Thank you for sharing your expertise 🙏

[@halloween31queen66]

The offer Rare Beauty gave her was better than one any other company would have EVER offered. Even without high-priced shark lawyers, there's no way she's going to win this lawsuit. They filed first end of story. It doesn't matter if you were selling first or not you should have filed before you started selling.

[@ABCEggplant]

Ulta should buy BH Cosmetics. They could kill the brand and use the quality of BH cosmetics formulations to drastically increase their in-house quality. That would be a steal for 5 million.

[@aphreyst4551]

A great idea! If ulta makeup products were amazing quality imagine how much they'd sell!

[@Marigold98]

that means no one outside of the us could enjoy that quality anymore

[@sz9511]

Hi I was wondering if bh cosmetics brushes were good quality? Also could you all please recommend your favourite products from the brand ❤️

[@hannahschriever7976]

@@sz9511 I love their brushes that come from the brush sets!

[@das31191]

@@sz9511 yeah they have great brushes

[@ElizabethGuillot]

Here's the thing: legally, whoever files the trademark first gets the trademark. The RBC owner didn't file a trademark prior to Selena. I would have taken the settlement, too, as there is little chance the RBC owner will win their suit.

[@classicallydiana8255]

I would’ve totally hit the deal button, too.

[@coffeebeforemascara]

Are you kidding me? Me too!

[@LadyLexMarvel]

The thing is, if your trademark application was blocked because it was already trademarked, then she should have chosen another name. She got the block and saw why it was blocked, why keep using a name you know has been trademarked? I am for small businesses, but it seems like she wanted to do what she wanted to do. Also, why pass on a GOLDEN deal that could have really put her on the map? She took a big L.

[@panickedindetroit]

That blue light protection is such a scam. My derm told me that if I use a sunblock, which I do, I don't need to worry about it. This is just like "clean beauty". It's a scam, and the worst part is some people are going to believe this is a product they need, and create cash grabs. I want preservatives in my products. I have bought "clean" products, only to have them go bad because air has contaminants, and things in a jar can oxidize, and oxygen can make them go off, even when I store them in a fridge. There is no science behind these products, but there are plenty of selling oints. I wish people would do their due diligence. They need to talk to their derms and let science educate them, because asking a content creator about would be like me asking my plumber how to avoid sun damage.

[@AKbaby89]

WOW. The Rare Beauty thing is CRAZY! I honestly am shocked that Selena gave her such a generous offer when it's clear Rare Beauty was trademarked first, and that's what matters. Honestly, knowing that she made such a generous offer to such a greedy claim, makes me want to support Rare Beauty more and buy a blush. I only own the foundation brush from them, but I think I'll go see what I want to get from them. I like supporting brands that do good things and have good owners, and Selena really impresses me time and time again.

[@keshmua]

There was never an offer made but this is not about money!

[@SevrenLuna]

Thank you for highlighting the Pull Up for Change "Make It Black" campaign and everything Sharon Chuteris of UOMA Beauty is doing.

[@jenluv]

You’re welcome! I admire Sharon so much! If I met her, I think I’d cry. Haha!

[@Amanda.aka.Megan.Shines]

That is why you file for a trademark right away, and if you can't get the trademark you chose a new name. Saying "but I was already using the name and then found it was already trademarked" is not a viable argument. So in 2017, she decided to file for a Trademark, and when it was rejected because the name was taken, she decided to continue to operate under the name that she knew she could not legally use for another 3 years because she couldn't find out who had it? She's lucky she wasn't sued for using a trademarked name. The whole point of trademarking is so that others can't use your branding to sell their own stuff. RBC wanted to keep people from using their name so they tried to trademark it, but then illegally used the name and violated someone else's trademark when she found out it was already taken. And then she has the audacity to try to sue the company she has been violating the trademark rights for for 4 years. The irony is completely lost on her clearly. That is like if I decided to launch a new product called McWater. I try to file the trademark but for some reason, it's rejected because it's already in use. "oh well," says I, "guess I'll still use it anyway." And then I am shocked when McDonald's hits me with a lawsuit for using a name that they already trademarked. You don't trademark something once you are ready to go to market. Clearly, it took 3+ years of planning to launch the company. You trademark right away for the exact reason laid out here. If Selena Gomez waited to trademark her company until she was ready to launch, she would have suddenly had to scramble to rebrand and relabel and do new market research and all that because some other company started up and trademarked the name while they were creating the company. I helped someone start a small business, and the very first thing we did was register for the name, long before they were ready to launch or had anything else fully fleshed out. Because the last thing we wanted was to have someone else register the name while we were planning everything else.

[@kristinaslocum2044]

Clinique needs to revive the black honey mascara shade. If they're going to bring it back, bring that back - it was a great brown-black with a hint of burgundy.

[@darkydoom]

So 2017 - RB Cosmetics failed to get a trademark, probably because Selina already got it. Rare Beauty was successful so, that's that. Doesn't matter if you started using the name, unfortunately by law, you need trademarks.

[@loeschzone6876]

If that was a legit offer to help rebrand and buy out all her products.. I would have taken that deal so quickly after my lawyer hammered out the details. what a missed opportunity...

[@cesileythorson3633]

And I'm boycotting brands using the "blue light" marketing crap. So tired of this.

[@becm963]

I think the issue with Glossier is competition. Other brands have created products similar to Glossier that are just easier to purchase. I can buy my no makeup “makeup” products from my local drugstore, Ulta, or Sephora. I don’t need to make a separate order to Glossier. If Glossier was in Ulta or Sephora, I believe their sales would improve.

[@nicolekryzhan3442]

I believe it will be difficult for Rare Beauty Cosmetics to succeed, since the owner was put on notice of Selena’s potential use, which is the point of filing an intent to use application (put a stake in the ground.) Selena had three years to show use of the mark in commerce (develop her brand and start selling to customers) and it seems like Selena was generous in her offer to buy out the company and help her start fresh.

[@SJDonofrio]

Trixie Mattel is an incredibly savvy marketer, which is how she did so well after an average initial Drag Race run. Her drag persona is quite petty and snarky, so this just seems like she's creating online beef to attract the attention and doesn't plan to do anything formal. As a big fan of her and the cosmetics, I can't believe I didn't put the two together, but I think it was because I can't get over how tacky I think all of Kylie's packing for this collection looks in relation to how I perceive her brand.

[@marye.5456]

The thing is that packaging is very common just look at kaja and holika holika

[@nancycompier]

I think you’re right about the Fenty lipstick cases, there will probably be lots of limited edition cases! I love the idea, but I wish they sold the lipstick with the case for a slightly higher price versus selling the case and lipsticks separately.

[@jenniferferrara6315]

Although I do feel bad for RareBeautyCosmetics, I think legally since she didn’t have the legal trademark, she is kinda at a loss. I don’t know much about trademarks or legality of trademarks, but if she was continually being blocked from getting trademark, wouldn’t that mean that someone else is using it? I also agree with you that I would have definitely agreed to what Selena Gomez was offering, which seems awesome that she was willing to help her continue her cosmetics line only using a different brand name and the opportunity to meet others to help her grow……

[@brookelee9745]

I looked at the brand’s website. They support the fur industry and sell things like waist trainers. Ew, no thanks.

[@kristentrep5038]

@@brookelee9745 she obviously could’ve used some help with her line!!

[@boop6169]

@@brookelee9745 oof yikes

[@keshmua]

Selena never offered me anything! This entire case is NOT about money or resources! It’s about the trademark in which I rightfully have priority rights too.

[@boop6169]

@@keshmua ….. that you didn’t go for tiL AFTER they did. It’s shitty bt not anyones fault bt yours.

[@MephistoAngel]

I think Rare Beauty Cosmetics is on the wrong side of the law. They didn’t file for trademark so the name was fair market. I understand how frustrating that would be for the lady but she’s wrong. She should have hit Deal and renamed

[@saint.hudson13]

That lip color is ….😘👌🏾 chefs kiss* on you! 😍

[@forevercandace714]

Was about to say the EXACT SAME! Gorgeous Jenn! 💋💋

[@prettyacct]

She didn't own the trademark and SG did, no matter when they decided to use it. She's not going to get $10m because it's not a well known brand and she didn't have the trademark. She's asking for $10m and she'll get $200k, if she's lucky.

[@JoeysMagGoth]

If she does - that last bit, it's still alottta money!

[@herefortheshrimp1469]

I have such a hard time imagining someone being in the beauty space for over 4 years and not realising that that isn’t at all how trademarks work. LOTS of companies do that before making anything simply to protect their future interests and it makes sense, doesn’t matter if they’ve used it yet. I hate being on the side of a multi million dollar company 🙄

[@rebeccac.1758]

She didn't own the trademark first. Rare beauty gave her an AMAZING offer. She should have taken it. Sad but true. Now she will probably have to close.

[@Lettyc90]

The rare beauty cosmetics owner is not seeing the big picture because I agree that the offer to help buy out and rebrand would have probably led her to bigger profits and longevity

[@tonyasullivan1164]

When I hear the word black I definitely think like elegant expensive I mean all high-end brands really do have black packaging Nars Mac because it's sleek sophisticated and stunning whether it's Matt or shiny or mixed together

[@jennykathe5789]

I hope Emily covers the Rare Beauty lawsuit, I'd love to hear her thoughts

[@christineambrosius2467]

It sounds like Rare Beauty Cosmetics got a little to greedy! I would have taken the deal as well.

[@MadellaBeauty]

Love this look on you Jen -the lipstick and the sweater ♥️

[@thatswhatshesaid8365]

That LYS concealer looks soooo pretty!!!

[@KaraChapman]

At least in the area where I practice law, offers to settle are strongly considered when determining the legal costs to award the unsuccessful litigant. RBC had a great offer presented and declining it will likely come back to haunt the owner when it's all said and done.

[@Makeuphedgehog]

I'm bit surprised anyone was even interested in buying Cover FX. They use to be very popular, but in recent years I have not heard anything about them in terms of launches. I honestly thought they were no longer actively in business.

[@bruisedviolet3670]

Love seeing you so excited. This week DID give us so much to talk about. Everyone have a great week.

[@lezlimuse]

All I hear when someone says, “blue light”, is being at KMART as a child and hearing, “Attention shoppers: KMART is now having a blue light special”

[@PanPanPanit]

10 million dollars sounds like an arbitrary answer to “how much could you retire on?” 🤔

[@cosmicslice7267]

Trademark isn't like squatter's rights...you can't just use the name and claim to have had it first when someone else has the trademark. A makeup line like the one SG started takes time to put together and do it right. I don't see how she has a case.

[@hpasko1]

I love your sweater! Where did you get it? That lip is gorgeous on you!!

[@alittleteacup]

That bold lip is gorgeous!

[@CherieMonique5]

I feel for the lady who started RBC but her case isn’t strong at all. I would have hit the deal button too. Even if she won in court, she would Have to prove she had 10 million in revenue lined up and I doubt she had that since her sales in the year before Selena’s launch amounted to ~ $30k.

[@StefLuvsFoo]

She needed a patent/trademark attorney back in 2017 to handle that for her. Sounds like she’s always tried to do everything herself and you can’t do what you can’t do and you don’t know what you don’t know. She didn’t get the trademark and sounds like she dropped the ball. You snooze, you lose.

[@prettyacct]

You have to protect your interests at the beginning, not the end.

[@swesttttt]

Absolutely. Trademark law is incredibly convoluted, and if you’re trying to legally obtain one, it can be rather difficult if you’ve not chosen your brand/business name carefully. Definitely not an “I’ll wing it” area.

[@EmmaDuncan8740]

I am so glad someone else said this!! I was thinking the same thing

[@sandyvandy6483]

Some people just aren’t smart enough to know they don’t know a lot of stuff. In this day and age everyone thinks they’re an expert in any and every field. It takes intelligence and emotional maturity to recognize your limitations.

[@swesttttt]

@@sandyvandy6483 Total Dunning Kruger Effect at work.

[@alyssabrown-carleton6173]

I think the rbc owner is trying to cry about a large company "bullying" them and play the martyr. If she couldn't get the trademark then she should have picked a name she could get one for. She's going to learn a very expensive lesson

[@aphreyst4551]

Exacyly this!! The name was already trademarked and RBC decided to use it anyway?

[@jenzerr8856]

In the 80’s my cousin owned a surfboard company that started with a Q, well Quiksilver filed suit against him ( even though his Q and his name looked NOTHING like the quicksilver Q or name) if they would’ve offered him a deal, he would’ve JUMPED on it. Because you can’t win against these huge corporations... they will BURY you in litigation for yearsssss and no one can afford to fight them... kashena girl, you should’ve taken the deal. It’s rare they even offer to do that.

[@kokodane6861]

Yea ppl have been trying to tell her that guy she seems very disillusioned on the raw truth. I get optimising but her actions are coming off very illogical given her case In itself is quite weak. The fact they gave her the opportunity to not only pay off her inventory but help restart was a chance she should of never downplayed.

[@alice_rabbit8345]

Mally, Julep and Laura Geller was sold in Ulta. I still use the LG Balance & Brighten foundation

[@beautifuldreamer0811]

Man. Rare Beauty Cosmetics really missed an opportunity. They could have helped her propel her business to new heights. And kylie cosmetics seems like she did a cut and paste from colourpop and trixie cosmetics with her v-day launch, but then again, colourpop's malibu barbie palette looked like it should have been from Trixie. Heart themed stuff is all the rage for the season. I just think that kylie's brand is generic, and maybe not intentionally stealing. Also, ngl, my heart sank when you showed the definition for black. I had no idea. That's just gross. Racial connotations aside, black as a color is sophisticated and sleek; bold and rich. But the racial implications are so in you face, given the history. Definitely shouldn't be ignored. I hope they change it. And lastly, Jen I love how your hair looks like it has strands of silver tinsel. It is so beautiful. I am just starting to get more greys. I think it is something to wear with honor. We earn it!

[@Kayyvr]

Colourpop and Kylie cosmetics are owned under the same company

[@beautifuldreamer0811]

@@Kayyvr oh, I didn't know that! Makes sense!

[@marye.5456]

Kaja and holika holika also have heart packaging though so where did it really start?!?

[@darkydoom]

I do like Trixie's lip gloss design. At least, it stuck in my memory and was tempting to buy

[@merlin2946]

This is the first video I watched of you and holy moly lol you did such a great job on reporting the news I never thought I wanted this type of information until now. Definitely subscribed

[@ClevverUsername]

See the trademark thing makes no sense to me. Of course a business will want to file and establish name prior to design and marketing planning. With how big Selena's brand is, it makes sense that it took about 3 years from iteration to launch. I agree, the samller business probably should have taken the buyout

[@aphreyst4551]

Exactly! And once they produce evidence that the brand was being developed in the years after RB was tradmarked that argument will be quickly shot down, I would imagine!

[@rebekahR]

Kaja has heart shaped lipstick tubes as well

[@jennifernoel1464]

Miss Jen, you are so beautiful! Inside and out, makeup or not. I absolutely LOVE your makeup today too! Especially the vampy lip. I just wanted to say that. Oceans of love to you and your beautiful family!

[@LysetteOne]

Sounds like Rare Beauty Cosmetics has been poorly advised and is about to learn a big lesson. She passed on a golden opportunity. No sympathy for her.

[@foodandlipstick]

Agreed, I would have taken the deal too. The networking she would have had access to is priceless in comparison to any sales she could have made, in my opinion.

[@Austinmoore2005]

Here’s my thing: Rare beauty cosmetics made the choice to begin manufacturing and selling products without a licensed trademark for their brand. They also were made aware of Selena’s brand in 2017 when their trademark was blocked. This means that she had 3 years notice before rare beauty by Selena Gomez launched to say to her customers “hey guys, I decided to go in a different direction to the name and vibe of the company, this will be the new company-“ and chose to not. Furthermore, seeing as not many people knew of rare beauty cosmetics beforehand I am highly doubting their company is worth the 10 million in damages she is trying to claim but she thinks she will win which explains why she didnt take the more than generous offer from Rare Beauty by Selena, they were offering basically to help her break even and get out of the existing brand and start another but this law suit screams “I just want the money” more than “I care about my brandl

[@oh_meghann5777]

Julep Beauty is in Target - and places like QVC.

[@veronicaelliott5769]

I love love love your eye look today! It's beautiful on you.

[@LeannSerao]

The lip color is beautiful on you!

[@PerkiPerkins]

I would have totally hit Deal Button but sounds like she wanted huge payday. Kinda sad because bigger companies tend to always win these types of suits. Mally, Laura & Jewel are always on QVC , HSN I think even Costco ! Oddly enough I just did a sponsorship w/Mally and it was the Anti Powder and it’s so nice! Made me look at the brand more again.

[@truewants]

Good Morning JEN! IPSY Also had in their Addons A Bundle Also to be apart of the BLACK..purchased! Always Enjoy Starting My Sundays with You!

[@katien9371]

I love your purple makeup look, Jen!

[@tonyasullivan1164]

I love my julip blush stick in mauve

[@leonettab7479]

It is widely known that blue light protection products aren’t necessary, yet they are marketable enough for brands to keep making them. That says some very sad things.

[@beckyramey7131]

Some people are easily deceived. Gullible. After watching the clips who would listen to those idiots? Gullible people.

[@nerdipedia1142]

I’m a lawyer (although not in the US) and I would have totally hit the deal button too. My gut says she’s gonna lose if she tries to challenge the trademark (but that’s not a formal legal opinion…I haven’t researched the US case law).

[@melissagreen6271]

Ilia has something about their foundation protecting from blue light as well. I just bought some of the super serum foundation today and noticed it.

[@samanthahernandez6286]

That lady definitely should have taken the deal. Businesses trademark years in advance. I don't think she has a leg to stand on, but I am not a lawyer.

[@aphreyst4551]

As long as RB produces evidence that the brand had been developing the products and marketing in the time between trademarking and releasing products the argument that they were just sitting on the name will be disproven. This lawsuit seems incredibly ill thought out.

[@jozmejia12]

I did some investigating about the rare beauty trademark case…and all i got to say what was RBC thinking? Lol. She admits on her blog that she didn’t trademark her brand because there was issues and decided to just use the name and launch her products. Laterrr she finds out about Rare beauty ( selena) and wants to contact them to cancel their brand…RB says we will settle to prevent public news which actually help her brand a-lot..but no she declines and gets surprised about being sued? Lol It does not matter who started selling first..she never trademark her brand and wonder why there was a block when trying again… Also im all for small business too but the audacity for her to say rare beauty is toxic, liars and etc because she has these issues now? Make it make sense 🤦🏽‍♀️ lol

[@MToThe3rdPower]

You always look fantastic.... however, that lip color is BEAUTIFUL on you!! 💄💯🖤

[@theeluannesantos]

Mad love for you Jen I hope you and your family are doing well 😘😘

[@LeanneGonsalves]

The new palette from Colourpop reminds of the Smoke and Roses palette

[@melrose985]

I love the artist shoutout! I always go follow these amazing people

[@AmyWhitehouseVlog]

Trixie/Brian seems like a pretty smart cookie, I’m sure he realizes there’s much more benefit in exploiting the similarities to expand TMCs reach rather than unnecessary legal headaches with a “billionaire”.

[@cherisenunez2530]

I asked a friend of mine who worked at Ulta about the Fenty rumor and she confirmed it. No timeline tho.. I'm still happy; Ulta is more accessible overall than Sephora, imho.

[@chandrascorner8780]

I forgot about Mali beauty. I bought their matte blurring product that’s phenomenal btw off of qvc.

[@thatswhatshesaid8365]

Sharon by Ouma Beauty started a revolution and I truly hope to see more brands participating in the near future. Im very happy to see the amazing success in the movement so far. Everything about it is beautiful!!

[@dustinchaney321]

My favorite thing about Sunday mornins!

[@HeatherWho11.10]

I think the long skinny pans could work out well because when you hit pan, you won't have to scrape at the sides. Just move your brush over a little and it's like you're starting new again. (Idk if that explained it well)

[@aimeelo4221]

Cute sweater/pullover/jumper whatever you wanna call it. Also the dark lip is pop’n. Happy Sunday.

[@AKbaby89]

Wait so my bf gets this subscription box called Bespoke post, and a few months ago he got a box of Maude stuff, a vibe, lube, and a candle(IYKYK) and it's good stuff!🤣👌👌 if I remember correctly, they were priced pretty well also

[@bethpat9]

Always love your content!

[@aphreyst4551]

The I heart revolution affirmation palettes are so pretty but yes, those skinny, long pans!! Classic revolution.

[@wlk3607]

personally I would’ve taken the trixie stuff as just a joking/teasing way to promote. it’s funny. hearts are a really common shape, i don’t know if they’d have any standing for a legal case with that.

[@Yikes702]

Yes the heart is a common shape but Trixie could claim proprietary usage. And the similar font would be huge evidence wise.

[@patsusanclegg2473]

Julep eyeshadow sticks are my HG, I find them now on amazon.

[@nicegigi6299]

Their lip sticks are incredible too.

[@susanpeltier3333]

Hey Jen where is your cute cozy looking sweater from?

[@cindytroxler2838]

I totally agree with your opinion on the Rare Beauty Cosmetics accepting their deal, wow.

[@jennahyser7245]

I love your lipstick! It looks great 😍

[@kittychatalot]

That palette looks great on you!

[@jennahyser7245]

The rock candy palette looks so much like the stone cold fox palette

[@laurakryzak7318]

Late comment here, but i have some MAC packaging for the mystery face powder that i bought way before the Manny highlighter and it looks the same except that it is black.

[@khl1987]

It's not like heart shapes are sooo original. Kaja has them too also a lot of K-beauty and J-beauty brands, for years

[@abhimac27]

The Aldi Rare lady seems to have dropped the ball. She should have taken the deal.

[@summerbummer1930]

Jen I love your sweater!

[@jodiekelly1355]

Your makeup look is especially pretty today 😍

[@asquaredmorrisdancer]

My guess on the too faced lipstick is that there was some off the books agreement: the packaging and formula were changed as a hard swap after the suit left court. This is when the lipstick changed from made with "peach and fig cream" to "peach and fig milk" and the little gold peach left the component. Edit: spelling typo.

[@ratedrachel3670]

Weren't anti pollution products marketing the same thing as blue light protection just using pollution as a general term? Those always confused me tooo

[@Milosgirl]

Love your sweater Jen!

[@sarahdavey9098]

RBC should have taken the deal. I would have been like where's the pen?! She missed an amazing opportunity.

[@jennahyser7245]

Uoma beauty started the make it black campaign? I saw flower beauty, elf, Mac, and colourpop are a few brands doing it as well! I didn’t know she founded it.

[@claudiaimmerzeel5415]

I received some Mally, Laura Geller and Julep products in last year's Boxycharm boxes. Unfortunately, I didn't like any of the Malley & Julep products. The Laura Geller makeup was hit and miss.

[@laurenc4150]

I LOVE your sweater!

[@TheSheilaff]

Last time I saw anything from Mally Beauty was at TJ Maxx last year at Christmas

[@libertychic8926]

I wanted that Mars big daddy box from Lunar Beauty but my deposit didn't come in time b4 they sold out. Sooo disappointed! I saw Allie Dawson unbox them and the Mars ($140) box had everything i wanted!!!! (And just knew was gonna be in it!)

[@tonyasullivan1164]

Julip and Laura Geller I can always find at TJ Maxx good quality surprise they're not more talked about